Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[kalvado]

^ Tell that to state Sen. John DeFrancisco, who is adamant that tunnel options remain on the table.

And I do see his point. Other than being somewhat pricey, tunnel option is the best one. Bang for the buck is quite low for all of the options, though, so tunnel doesn't quite stand out on that aspect as well.

[The Ghostbuster]

I doubt even an Interstate 81 tunnel will ever be built. In fact, I'd be very surprised if any more road tunnels are built in the United States, after the SR-99 Alaskan Way Viaduct Tunnel is completed, although I believe that mentality should change.

[Alps]

^ Tell that to state Sen. John DeFrancisco, who is adamant that tunnel options remain on the table.

And I do see his point. Other than being somewhat pricey, tunnel option is the best one. Bang for the buck is quite low for all of the options, though, so tunnel doesn't quite stand out on that aspect as well.

Ideally every urban freeway would be in a tunnel, except for the cost.

[Hurricane Rex]

I doubt even an Interstate 81 tunnel will ever be built. In fact, I'd be very surprised if any more road tunnels are built in the United States, after the SR-99 Alaskan Way Viaduct Tunnel is completed, although I believe that mentality should change.

Does freeways going under newly constructed parks over it count? I'm talking 500-1000 feet long.

[Alps]

I doubt even an Interstate 81 tunnel will ever be built. In fact, I'd be very surprised if any more road tunnels are built in the United States, after the SR-99 Alaskan Way Viaduct Tunnel is completed, although I believe that mentality should change.

Does freeways going under newly constructed parks over it count? I'm talking 500-1000 feet long.

not if they build the park over it. he's talking bored tunnels

[Buffaboy]

I doubt even an Interstate 81 tunnel will ever be built. In fact, I'd be very surprised if any more road tunnels are built in the United States, after the SR-99 Alaskan Way Viaduct Tunnel is completed, although I believe that mentality should change.

I think Elon Musk's Boring Company will make this easier (and cheaper).

[kalvado]

I doubt even an Interstate 81 tunnel will ever be built. In fact, I'd be very surprised if any more road tunnels are built in the United States, after the SR-99 Alaskan Way Viaduct Tunnel is completed, although I believe that mentality should change.

I think Elon Musk's Boring Company will make this easier (and cheaper).

once their antimatter borer is operational...

[froggie]

I think Elon Musk's Boring Company will make this easier (and cheaper).

Don't hold your breath...

[Plutonic Panda]

Has Musk released any details as to what makes his boring machines better? What is different about them? Will he use different techniques or just completely design a new type of boring machine that works better than current ones?

[Alps]

Has Musk released any details as to what makes his boring machines better? What is different about them? Will he use different techniques or just completely design a new type of boring machine that works better than current ones?

They'll be electric!

[kalvado]

Has Musk released any details as to what makes his boring machines better? What is different about them? Will he use different techniques or just completely design a new type of boring machine that works better than current ones?

They'll be electric!

Like this electric AC unit on gasoline powered car?

[sparker]

Has Musk released any details as to what makes his boring machines better? What is different about them? Will he use different techniques or just completely design a new type of boring machine that works better than current ones?

They'll be electric!

Like this electric AC unit on gasoline powered car?

No -- just a shitload of lithium-ion batteries in well-vented containers.  I'm pretty certain one of Musk & Co.'s principal tasks in the next few years will be to find a safe place to put those suckers in a vehicle that, at the same time, looks like it's worth the $$ that'll be charged for it (at least according to one of my audio clients who works for Tesla). 

[kalvado]

Has Musk released any details as to what makes his boring machines better? What is different about them? Will he use different techniques or just completely design a new type of boring machine that works better than current ones?

They'll be electric!

Like this electric AC unit on gasoline powered car?

No -- just a shitload of lithium-ion batteries in well-vented containers.  I'm pretty certain one of Musk & Co.'s principal tasks in the next few years will be to find a safe place to put those suckers in a vehicle that, at the same time, looks like it's worth the $$ that'll be charged for it (at least according to one of my audio clients who works for Tesla).

Yes, tunnel borer really has to look sexy and worth the price tag.
Imagine you're boring those tunnels with $1B worth machine - but looking at machine you cannot say it worth more than mere $900M. Of course, no state DOT can afford that!
Thinking about it, another really sexy piece of American - and state of NY - industrial superiority is this baby:

This "I Lift NY" crane truly justifies it price tag. Previously known as "left coast lifter" this beauty was built in chi... ok, never mind.

[PHLBOS]

*Thread bump*

I saw this commentary today on FB opposing the removal of I-81 in the Syracuse area & thought I'd share it here.

DeWitt supervisor: Keep I-81 through downtown Syracuse (Commentary)

Regarding DeWitt Town Councilor Kerin Rigney's commentary "The suburban case for the community grid" (Jan. 29, 2018), my view -- and that of majority of the DeWitt Town Board -- is that we oppose any plan that eliminates the north-south connection of Interstate 81 through the city of Syracuse. It is our considered opinion that converting Interstate 481 into I-81 will be detrimental to DeWitt neighborhoods, and our community as a whole, due to significantly increased air and noise pollution, as well as increased traffic on I-481 and also on our secondary town roads.

Nested in the article is the August 22, 2016
DeWitt Town Board Resolution
Motion by Councilor Young, seconded by Councilor Frank.
MEMORIALIZING THE INTENT OF THE TOWN BOARD OF THE TOWN OF DeWITT, COUNTY OF
ONONDAGA, REGARDING THE NEED TO MAINTAIN THE EXISTING ALIGNMENT OF INTERSTATE
81 THROUGH SYRACUSE

IMHO, it's a welcome change to hear from those (outside of the engineering and/or roadgeek community) who support keeping I-81 in Syracuse.

[froggie]

^ DeWitt is along I-481, so one could argue that they're slightly biased on the issue and that it's no surprise they're opposed to anything that would add traffic to I-481.

[PHLBOS]

^^Conversely, one could say that those advocating I-81's removal are also biased too.  The bottom line here is that any highway project, be it construction or removal (in this case), has a much wider impact than just the immediate corridor location.

[Duke87]

This does generally jive with the understanding I've gotten from talking to coworkers from the area though. Folks downtown tend to want I-81 removed. Folks in the suburbs... mostly do not.

Naturally, the proponents of removal are the people who experience most of the viaduct's negative impacts while finding it minimally beneficial, and the opponents of removal are the people who experience the viaduct's benefits without particularly seeing any negative impacts.

So, self-interest all around, as you'd expect.

[The Ghostbuster]

How many years before this is resolved? 5? 10? 50? When the sun becomes a red giant? This is dragging on way too long.

[kalvado]

How many years before this is resolved? 5? 10? 50? When the sun becomes a red giant? This is dragging on way too long.

No, much sooner. 18 months after the old structure collapses.

[vdeane]

How many years before this is resolved? 5? 10? 50? When the sun becomes a red giant? This is dragging on way too long.

Probably the heat death of the universe.

[Beltway]

How many years before this is resolved? 5? 10? 50? When the sun becomes a red giant? This is dragging on way too long.

Probably the heat death of the universe.

Well after the red giant phase ... when the Sun becomes a white dwarf.

[Michael]

I just saw an article on Syracuse.com, and it has a good picture of what I've imagined for a viaduct replacement:


Something interesting about the picture is the curved ramps right next to the tower.  I've been having trouble imagining how the end of a cable-stayed bridge would tie into the I-81/I-690 interchange, and this is an interesting solution.  I've imagined just a single level bridge, and I don't know how hard it would be to adapt the design to a single deck.

There's also a picture of the Zakim Bridge in Boston at the beginning of the article, which is what I've thought of all along as a bridge that could be used as a base design for a bridge in Syracuse.

[Bobby5280]

A cable-stay bridge as a replacement for an ordinary elevated 4-lane freeway just a mile long? That seems like costly overkill.

Elevated urban freeways are not popular. I think part of the problem is the design of the bridges. Elevated urban freeways are often very clunky, ugly and industrial looking. If project engineers were able to use state of the art bridge building techniques they might be able to design something that isn't an eye sore. A cast-segmental method could be used to create a more elegant, modern looking freeway with longer and more fluid-looking spans. There would be far fewer bridge pylons yielding a more open look to it. Incorporate artful touches to the bridge structures. Add landscaping and other green touches where possible. The aging I-81/I-690 interchange could be re-built using the same methods.

None of this would be cheap. But it would be a hell of a lot less expensive than building deep bore tunnels. It might even be cheaper than building a below grade cut and cover freeway with a deck park on top.

I think it would be bad idea to sever I-81 in downtown Syracuse. The downtown area has certain things going for it, but if they make it harder for people out in suburbs like Liverpool or Cicero to visit downtown those people will just stay out in the suburbs.

[kalvado]

A cable-stay bridge as a replacement for an ordinary elevated 4-lane freeway just a mile long? That seems like costly overkill.

Elevated urban freeways are not popular. I think part of the problem is the design of the bridges. Elevated urban freeways are often very clunky, ugly and industrial looking. If project engineers were able to use state of the art bridge building techniques they might be able to design something that isn't an eye sore. A cast-segmental method could be used to create a more elegant, modern looking freeway with longer and more fluid-looking spans. There would be far fewer bridge pylons yielding a more open look to it. Incorporate artful touches to the bridge structures. Add landscaping and other green touches where possible. The aging I-81/I-690 interchange could be re-built using the same methods.

None of this would be cheap. But it would be a hell of a lot less expensive than building deep bore tunnels. It might even be cheaper than building a below grade cut and cover freeway with a deck park on top.

I think it would be bad idea to sever I-81 in downtown Syracuse. The downtown area has certain things going for it, but if they make it harder for people out in suburbs like Liverpool or Cicero to visit downtown those people will just stay out in the suburbs.

Great. But few things to consider.
1. NY has no money for this. In fact, there was a huge problem putting together $4B for Tappan Zee replacement - a bridge on toll road with a lot of traffic, with much more visibility. There should be some federal funding for a free 2DI, though, but not for something extravagant. 
This is a much lower profile than Tappan Zee, but cost is close.
2.  Right of way, and groups hell bent on protecting existing slums. Existing road has no ROW even to rebuild as-is to new standards.
3. Downtown folks are sure that the road is the only thing standing between them and wealth. You know, separating communities, encouraging  everything bad and discouraging everything good. SO nothing remotely similar to above ground highway will be acceptable.

It is a hot potato nobody wants to own. Can will be kicked for a few more miles down the road, and then some. Old structure will be there until it collapses. Hopefully during 10784th community meeting on replacement, and hopefully directly on the crowd attending that meeting. 

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

Great. But few things to consider.

. . .

2.  Right of way, and groups hell bent on protecting existing slums. Existing road has no ROW even to rebuild as-is to new standards.

3. Downtown folks are sure that the road is the only thing standing between them and wealth. You know, separating communities, encouraging  everything bad and discouraging everything good. SO nothing remotely similar to above ground highway will be acceptable.

It is a hot potato nobody wants to own. Can will be kicked for a few more miles down the road, and then some. Old structure will be there until it collapses. Hopefully during 10784th community meeting on replacement, and hopefully directly on the crowd attending that meeting.

Check out downtown Syracuse around the I-81 corridor in 1956, then in 1976, and tell me with a straight face that the highway had nothing to do with the creation of the "slums" you're talking about. Or have a chat with some of the thousands of people in upstate NY whose neighborhoods benefited from "slum clearance" and highway building back in the mid-20th century and see how much they appreciated it.