DST (2018)

[tradephoric]

^^ The long-distance events at London 2012 all started at 8am DST, that they will start the marathon at 7am standard time in Tokyo isn't additional mitigation for heat of any sort.

DST and a 7am start would be one way to mitigate. A 6am start would be another way. I imagine both are being investigated.

It was a 7:05 (with DST) start in Atlanta in 1996, and a quick check of Wikipedia tells me that Atlanta and Tokyo have virtually identical summer temperatures, so I think that would probably work.

The difference is on August 4th the sunrise in Atlanta was at 6:51AM.  I picked August 4th because that was the day the Men's marathon was ran in Atlanta.  Now in Tokyo the sunrise on August 4th would be at 4:50AM.  The marathon in Tokyo would have to begin at around 5AM for the marathon runners to be running in the equivalent "heat of the day" that the marathon runners in Atlanta ran in (which reportedly began around 7AM).  The other alternative is to push the entire country into a 2 hour daylight saving time during the Olympics which is what some on the Olympics committee are proposing...

The proposal to bring clocks forward by two hours has received major opposition on social media with many worried it would result in longer working hours...

Olympic officials had early appealed to Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe to adopt daylight saving time so that events like the marathon could be scheduled in the cooler morning hours.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45080980

[tradephoric]

In you live in Tokyo dawn begins before 4AM and the sun sets by 7PM on the longest day of the year.  On the shortest day of the year dawn begins at 6:17AM and the sun sets by 4:30PM.  Even during the shortest day of the year when dawn begins at 6:17AM, that almost seems too early to be awaken by the daylight.  Someone here can probably explain to me why the Japanese people love to get up early and it's a cultural thing why they wouldn't want later sunrise times.  Of course if that's the case why don't they just start the damn marathon at 5AM?  The fact that they aren't talking about starting the marathon at 5AM suggests that there is a lot of wasted sunlight in the early part of the day in Tokyo (admittedly there are probably Olympic broadcast schedules they have to deal with too.. but still!). 

[vdeane]

Of course if that's the case why don't they just start the damn marathon at 5AM?

That is a very good question.  Probably has to do with society being more used to the numbers on the clock than the position of the sun these days.  The question of 5 AM vs. 7 AM on double DST probably wouldn't affect broadcast much, since everywhere outside of Japan wouldn't be affected by which it is.

The comparison to Atlanta is interesting.  If going strictly by longitude, Atlanta would be in Central rather than Eastern, and with DST, it's two hours ahead of its theoretical time zone.  Meanwhile, Tokyo is right in (the eastern part of) it's theoretical longitudinally-defined time zone.

[20160805]

Let me just state for the record that Tokyo has basically as good of sunrise/set times as you're going to get at that latitude.

[kalvado]

Of course if that's the case why don't they just start the damn marathon at 5AM?

That is a very good question.  Probably has to do with society being more used to the numbers on the clock than the position of the sun these days.  The question of 5 AM vs. 7 AM on double DST probably wouldn't affect broadcast much, since everywhere outside of Japan wouldn't be affected by which it is.

The comparison to Atlanta is interesting.  If going strictly by longitude, Atlanta would be in Central rather than Eastern, and with DST, it's two hours ahead of its theoretical time zone.  Meanwhile, Tokyo is right in (the eastern part of) it's theoretical longitudinally-defined time zone.

As a wild guess.. Can there be a law that limits hours of public events? Or some provisions in labor law?

Let me just state for the record that Tokyo has basically as good of sunrise/set times as you're going to get at that latitude.

Probably not. Being on an eastern edge of proper time zone means solar noon is about 11.30;  sunrise is about 5.30 at equinox, and earlier than that diurng 6 summer months; and sunset is at 5.30 PM, and earlier than that during 6 winter months...
I am more inclined to have solar noon closer to 1 PM... But I don't know typical Tokyo schedule.

And given country is fairly stretched east-west and is in a single time zone, Tokyo  would be earlish anyway.

An interesting quote from Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Standard_Time

From 1948—51, Japan observed DST between May and September every year under an initiative of the U.S.-led occupation army. The unpopularity of DST, for which people complained about sleep disruption and longer daytime labor (some workers had to work from early morning until dusk) caused Japan to abandon DST in 1952, shortly after its sovereignty was restored upon the coming into effect of the San Francisco Peace Treaty. Since then, DST has never been officially implemented nationwide in Japan.[7]

[tradephoric]

Let me just state for the record that Tokyo has basically as good of sunrise/set times as you're going to get at that latitude.

Do you go to bed literally right after 6-7PM dinner?  If you don't and you live in Tokyo, then any after dinner activities will be in darkness even during the longest day of the year.... not a big deal for some things but good luck playing a round of golf.  Meanwhile if you get up at 7AM in Tokyo (not an unreasonable time for many people), then you have already missed out on 3 hours of daylight.  How is that ideal?  I personally would be more likely to watch the sunrise in Tokyo before i go to bed than getting up by 4:30AM to watch it.  Reading up on Tokyo's nightlife, bars are often open till 5AM.  Besides the people stumbling out of a bar at 5AM, who actually watches the sunrise in Tokyo?  Even the people stumbling out of the bar at 5AM when it closes have missed the 4:30AM sunrise.   

Tokyo boasts some of the world's best nightlife — top of the line sound systems pump out the beat at amazing clubs, fabulous fashions are on display and a friendly atmosphere pervades. However, before heading out, a little research will help to get you pointed in the right direction.

One of the first things travelers will notice is that almost every bar or club charges a cover for admission, anywhere from $5 - $50. While this usually includes a ticket for 1 or 2 free drinks, don't be surprised if you get nothing in return aside from live music, a bowl of nuts, or even just a wristband. Try to find the details ahead of time. Mega-clubs like  Womb  or  AgeHa  are easily accessable to non-Japanese crowds, although the action usually doesn't start until late. For a more comprehensive nightlife experience, try to find a local organized party such as the  Tokyo Pub Crawl  to kick things off. Flyers advertising such events, are easily picked up in music stores around Shibuya or in any of the bars in Shinjuku-ni-chome for gays and lesbians.

Another shock may be when many clubs state that they close at midnight — while bars are often open till 5am. A law exists that prevents dancing in residential neighborhoods, but is largely ignored.

[jeffandnicole]

Of course if that's the case why don't they just start the damn marathon at 5AM?

That is a very good question.  Probably has to do with society being more used to the numbers on the clock than the position of the sun these days.  The question of 5 AM vs. 7 AM on double DST probably wouldn't affect broadcast much, since everywhere outside of Japan wouldn't be affected by which it is.

The comparison to Atlanta is interesting.  If going strictly by longitude, Atlanta would be in Central rather than Eastern, and with DST, it's two hours ahead of its theoretical time zone.  Meanwhile, Tokyo is right in (the eastern part of) it's theoretical longitudinally-defined time zone.

As a wild guess.. Can there be a law that limits hours of public events? Or some provisions in labor law?

[/quote]

Probably just a logistical thing.  If you start a marathon at 5am, you need a lot of staffing and volunteers - and there's usually a *lot* of volunteers - there well before 5am.  It's bad enough to get people to volunteer for an event at 7am.  You're not going to get people there to volunteer at 230/300am.  It can throw off a runner's routine as well.

[kalvado]

Of course if that's the case why don't they just start the damn marathon at 5AM?

That is a very good question.  Probably has to do with society being more used to the numbers on the clock than the position of the sun these days.  The question of 5 AM vs. 7 AM on double DST probably wouldn't affect broadcast much, since everywhere outside of Japan wouldn't be affected by which it is.

The comparison to Atlanta is interesting.  If going strictly by longitude, Atlanta would be in Central rather than Eastern, and with DST, it's two hours ahead of its theoretical time zone.  Meanwhile, Tokyo is right in (the eastern part of) it's theoretical longitudinally-defined time zone.

As a wild guess.. Can there be a law that limits hours of public events? Or some provisions in labor law?

Probably just a logistical thing.  If you start a marathon at 5am, you need a lot of staffing and volunteers - and there's usually a *lot* of volunteers - there well before 5am.  It's bad enough to get people to volunteer for an event at 7am.  You're not going to get people there to volunteer at 230/300am.  It can throw off a runner's routine as well.

Most runners will fly long distance for such a competition, and as such would be enjoying jetlag anyway.
Volunteering early can easily be a part of a situation, though.

[vdeane]

The volunteers (and runners) are certainly free to have their own "personal DST" to make it work.  It's certainly less radical than what CCP Gray did on a Vegas trip, where he ignored the local time zone completely and continued using the same sleep/wake times he does in the UK.

[kalvado]

The volunteers (and runners) are certainly free to have their own "personal DST" to make it work.  It's certainly less radical than what CCP Gray did on a Vegas trip, where he ignored the local time zone completely and continued using the same sleep/wake times he does in the UK.

If you will, I am talking about same approach on a larger scale when talking about clock and work hours being less rigidly linked. Move proverbial "9 to 5" to "7 to 3" or "11 to 7" as local population prefers. Needs a lot of cooperation from business community, but little - if any - cooperation from the federal government.

[jeffandnicole]

I volunteered for a marathon twice - the NJ Marathon.  It required me to have a 2am wakeup call, be on the road before 3am, to make it to the destination at 4am.  Many of the other volunteers thought I was crazy, not only waking up so early but the drive as well.  And I was by far from the first one there, as there were other volunteers already working, parking cars, working on the route, etc. 

[20160805]

Let me just state for the record that Tokyo has basically as good of sunrise/set times as you're going to get at that latitude.

Do you go to bed literally right after 6-7PM dinner?  If you don't and you live in Tokyo, then any after dinner activities will be in darkness even during the longest day of the year.... not a big deal for some things but good luck playing a round of golf.  Meanwhile if you get up at 7AM in Tokyo (not an unreasonable time for many people), then you have already missed out on 3 hours of daylight.  How is that ideal?  I personally would be more likely to watch the sunrise in Tokyo before i go to bed than getting up by 4:30AM to watch it.  Reading up on Tokyo's nightlife, bars are often open till 5AM.  Besides the people stumbling out of a bar at 5AM, who actually watches the sunrise in Tokyo?  Even the people stumbling out of the bar at 5AM when it closes have missed the 4:30AM sunrise.   

Tokyo boasts some of the world's best nightlife — top of the line sound systems pump out the beat at amazing clubs, fabulous fashions are on display and a friendly atmosphere pervades. However, before heading out, a little research will help to get you pointed in the right direction.

One of the first things travelers will notice is that almost every bar or club charges a cover for admission, anywhere from $5 - $50. While this usually includes a ticket for 1 or 2 free drinks, don't be surprised if you get nothing in return aside from live music, a bowl of nuts, or even just a wristband. Try to find the details ahead of time. Mega-clubs like  Womb  or  AgeHa  are easily accessable to non-Japanese crowds, although the action usually doesn't start until late. For a more comprehensive nightlife experience, try to find a local organized party such as the  Tokyo Pub Crawl  to kick things off. Flyers advertising such events, are easily picked up in music stores around Shibuya or in any of the bars in Shinjuku-ni-chome for gays and lesbians.

Another shock may be when many clubs state that they close at midnight — while bars are often open till 5am. A law exists that prevents dancing in residential neighborhoods, but is largely ignored.

Your argument can easily be invalidated by the fact that I eat supper at 17:30 and go to bed at 21:00.  I do very little outside the house late in the evening, especially weeknight evenings, so having it be light as noon until late-thirty does absolutely nothing other than impede my sleep.  There's plenty of time for being outside and enjoying your life on Saturday and Sunday.

By the way, IMO the entire state of Michigan should be on Central Time.  Even my dad agrees, and he's kind of an owl.

[ce929wax]

By the way, IMO the entire state of Michigan should be on Central Time.  Even my dad agrees, and he's kind of an owl.[/quote]

Nope, I'm going to stop you right there.  I have severe Seasonal Affective Disorder, and having the sun set at 4:09 PM on the earliest sunset of the year would really make me want to blow my brains out.  It's bad enough at 5:09 PM.  I would like to see DST all year round.  I am not a morning person, and I don't get out of bed before 10 a.m. unless I absolutely have to, so a 9 a.m. sunrise in the winter would be perfect for me.

[20160805]

By the way, IMO the entire state of Michigan should be on Central Time.  Even my dad agrees, and he's kind of an owl.

Nope, I'm going to stop you right there.  I have severe Seasonal Affective Disorder, and having the sun set at 4:09 PM on the earliest sunset of the year would really make me want to blow my brains out.  It's bad enough at 5:09 PM.  I would like to see DST all year round.  I am not a morning person, and I don't get out of bed before 10 a.m. unless I absolutely have to, so a 9 a.m. sunrise in the winter would be perfect for me.
[/quote]
So then the latest sunrise in Lansing would be in the second half of second period for middle and high school students, assuming school days there are similar to my own (and it would be complete night at the start of the school day from 26 Dec to 15 Jan); and astronomical twilight past my bedtime from 28 Feb (!) to 27 Sept inclusive.  (Marquette would be even worse, with complete night at the start of the school day from 2 Dec to 5 Feb [over two months], and astronomical dusk past bedtime from 18 Feb to 5 Oct.)  I understand SAD, and although not a classic sufferer of it, I have noticed seasonal trends in my own mood too: when I start to see it remain light out well into the 18:00 hour in February, and yet outside it's still one of the coldest days of the year, I get even more antsy for spring and warmer weather than usual.  And I couldn't imagine lying there in bed getting progressively more frustrated for 46 minutes (Marquette sunset at its latest is 21:46, GMT-4 [which coincides with Eastern Daylight and Atlantic Standard Time]) because I can't sleep with the sun shining right into my bloody window.

I'll at least say that the western half to two thirds of the UP should definitely be on Central Time - where I live, sunrise/set on 21 June are 5:09-20:41.  In Marquette, MI, those numbers are 5:56-21:46.  That's a solar noon almost an hour later than at my location.  Put Marquette on Central Time, and you get 4:56-20:46, which not only aligns better with its longitude and the time of basically every state going south from there from Wisconsin on down, but it would actually allow larks like me to perhaps have some semblance of a quality night's sleep.

Hot take: if we're going to argue about DST for 37 pages, why don't we just go to GMT worldwide year-round?  Now nobody has to worry about DST or time zones, and virtually everyone's sleep gets disrupted.  (Or nobody's sleep gets disrupted, depending on whether we're willing and able to adjust based on how the sun works at our location.)

[vdeane]

Nope, I'm going to stop you right there.  I have severe Seasonal Affective Disorder, and having the sun set at 4:09 PM on the earliest sunset of the year would really make me want to blow my brains out.  It's bad enough at 5:09 PM.  I would like to see DST all year round.  I am not a morning person, and I don't get out of bed before 10 a.m. unless I absolutely have to, so a 9 a.m. sunrise in the winter would be perfect for me.

Lucky you.  I would never be able to hold such a schedule given my current job, even though my circadian rhythm is happiest when I do that.  Waking up is pretty hard in the winter, and I suspect seasonal affective disorder would affect you regarding late sunrises if you had to keep earlier hours.

[ftballfan]

By the way, IMO the entire state of Michigan should be on Central Time.  Even my dad agrees, and he's kind of an owl.

Nope, I'm going to stop you right there.  I have severe Seasonal Affective Disorder, and having the sun set at 4:09 PM on the earliest sunset of the year would really make me want to blow my brains out.  It's bad enough at 5:09 PM.  I would like to see DST all year round.  I am not a morning person, and I don't get out of bed before 10 a.m. unless I absolutely have to, so a 9 a.m. sunrise in the winter would be perfect for me.

So then the latest sunrise in Lansing would be in the second half of second period for middle and high school students, assuming school days there are similar to my own (and it would be complete night at the start of the school day from 26 Dec to 15 Jan); and astronomical twilight past my bedtime from 28 Feb (!) to 27 Sept inclusive.  (Marquette would be even worse, with complete night at the start of the school day from 2 Dec to 5 Feb [over two months], and astronomical dusk past bedtime from 18 Feb to 5 Oct.)  I understand SAD, and although not a classic sufferer of it, I have noticed seasonal trends in my own mood too: when I start to see it remain light out well into the 18:00 hour in February, and yet outside it's still one of the coldest days of the year, I get even more antsy for spring and warmer weather than usual.  And I couldn't imagine lying there in bed getting progressively more frustrated for 46 minutes (Marquette sunset at its latest is 21:46, GMT-4 [which coincides with Eastern Daylight and Atlantic Standard Time]) because I can't sleep with the sun shining right into my bloody window.

I'll at least say that the western half to two thirds of the UP should definitely be on Central Time - where I live, sunrise/set on 21 June are 5:09-20:41.  In Marquette, MI, those numbers are 5:56-21:46.  That's a solar noon almost an hour later than at my location.  Put Marquette on Central Time, and you get 4:56-20:46, which not only aligns better with its longitude and the time of basically every state going south from there from Wisconsin on down, but it would actually allow larks like me to perhaps have some semblance of a quality night's sleep.

Hot take: if we're going to argue about DST for 37 pages, why don't we just go to GMT worldwide year-round?  Now nobody has to worry about DST or time zones, and virtually everyone's sleep gets disrupted.  (Or nobody's sleep gets disrupted, depending on whether we're willing and able to adjust based on how the sun works at our location.)
[/quote]
IMO, the UP outside of Chippewa, Luce, and Mackinac counties should be CT. The UP has a very sharp cultural divide around M-77 (with areas west aligning more with Green Bay/Milwaukee and areas east aligning more with Detroit)

[ce929wax]

I can get on board with CT being extended in the upper peninsula.  I can also get on board with CT for the entire state if Michigan goes to DST all year.  If the entire state were to go to CT and not go DST all year, I would have to seriously consider moving back to Texas.  I sometimes do consider moving back to Texas, but I have health needs and re establishing doctors and stuff in another state is more of a PITA than I want to deal with, in spite of the winters in Michigan.

[20160805]

I can get on board with CT being extended in the upper peninsula.  I can also get on board with CT for the entire state if Michigan goes to DST all year.  If the entire state were to go to CT and not go DST all year, I would have to seriously consider moving back to Texas.  I sometimes do consider moving back to Texas, but I have health needs and re establishing doctors and stuff in another state is more of a PITA than I want to deal with, in spite of the winters in Michigan.

So what you're basically saying is you want all of Michigan to be on GMT-5 (EST) year-round.  I can get on board with that.

Here's a map I just threw together last night depicting what I'd do with time zones:

[Scott5114]

I've never understood why map makers have such problems with the Oklahoma-Missouri border. It's more or less perfectly vertical. The Oklahoma-Arkansas border isn't.

[tradephoric]

Your argument can easily be invalidated by the fact that I eat supper at 17:30 and go to bed at 21:00.  I do very little outside the house late in the evening, especially weeknight evenings, so having it be light as noon until late-thirty does absolutely nothing other than impede my sleep.  There's plenty of time for being outside and enjoying your life on Saturday and Sunday.

Even if Tokyo went to DST (just an hour shift, not a two-hour shift) the sun in Tokyo would set at 20:00 during the longest day of the year and it would be pitch dark before your 21:00 bedtime.  How would that impede your sleep?  My point is Tokyo doesn't currently have perfect sunrise/sunset times as you suggested, highlighted by the fact that even if Tokyo went on DST it would already be pitch dark before your abnormally early bedtime during the longest day of the year.  Meanwhile the sun on the longest day currently rises by 4:30AM in Tokyo.  Seeing that you go to bed by 9PM, you seem like an extreme early bird, but do you even get up by 4:30AM?  Short of someone who has a two-hour commute to their 7AM job I don't see many people being up at 4:30AM.  And if you have a two-hour commute to your job I have no sympathy for you... maybe it's time to re-evaluate your life.  You honestly believe the sunsets never extending beyond 7PM in Toyko is ideal (with 4:30AM sunrises to boot)?  You're living Bizarro world to me. 

[tradephoric]

Some places along the Northern tip of Japan have sunrises at 3:34AM during the longest day of the year (with dawn beginning by 3AM).  It's like the country is accustomed to living in darkness and sleeps the daylight away.  Like America, perpetual DST would appear to be a good option for Japan to consider. 

Why is Japan kept in dark?
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2006/10/17/issues/why-is-japan-kept-in-dark/#.W2r8LcInaK8

In Japan, sunset still comes early. Even in June, it is dark by 8 p.m., when many are still at work in artificially lit offices, while others are heading for bright "izakaya."  The sun has risen by four in the morning; daylight is wasted while Japan sleeps.

Much of Japan is further south again: the southernmost islands of Okinawa stretch almost to the tropic of Cancer. Even the northern tip of Hokkaido is further south than Paris. Ninety-five percent of Japanese live in latitudes that might benefit from perpetual daylight-saving time.

[jeffandnicole]

Some places along the Northern tip of Japan have sunrises at 3:34AM during the longest day of the year (with dawn beginning by 3AM).  It's like the country is accustomed to living in darkness and sleeps the daylight away.  Like America, perpetual DST would appear to be a good option for Japan to consider. 

Why is Japan kept in dark?
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2006/10/17/issues/why-is-japan-kept-in-dark/#.W2r8LcInaK8

In Japan, sunset still comes early. Even in June, it is dark by 8 p.m., when many are still at work in artificially lit offices, while others are heading for bright "izakaya."  The sun has risen by four in the morning; daylight is wasted while Japan sleeps.

Much of Japan is further south again: the southernmost islands of Okinawa stretch almost to the tropic of Cancer. Even the northern tip of Hokkaido is further south than Paris. Ninety-five percent of Japanese live in latitudes that might benefit from perpetual daylight-saving time.

This looks like a commentary piece - which is nothing more than someone who writes to the paper occasionally giving their opinion about something.  If you wrote exactly what you write here on these forums to a paper expressing your opinion, it holds absolutely no weight whatsoever other than giving people something to think about...which they may agree or disagree with.  Yet, I would be able to find your commentary in the paper and try to pass it off as fact.

It doesn't even provide any facts to back up the writer's stance that "daylight is wasted while Japan sleeps".  What time do the majority of people wake up and go to bed in Japan?

[Brandon]

IMO, the UP outside of Chippewa, Luce, and Mackinac counties should be CT. The UP has a very sharp cultural divide around M-77 (with areas west aligning more with Green Bay/Milwaukee and areas east aligning more with Detroit)

Only for football (Packers vs. Lions).  In places like Houghton and Marquette, it's the Tigers and Red Wings they follow.

[tradephoric]

It doesn't even provide any facts to back up the writer's stance that "daylight is wasted while Japan sleeps".  What time do the majority of people wake up and go to bed in Japan?

A fact was given in the piece that many (Japanese) are still at work in artificially lit offices when it is dark out at 8 pm.  If many are still working at 8 pm it's unlikely the workers can get home, relax, go to bed, and get up by 4:30 a.m. with the necessary amount of sleep to function the next day.  It's similar to how "˜some' Mexicans crossing over the southern border are good people... just a question of how much weight you want to put on the words "˜many' and "˜some'.   In the case of Mexicans crossing the border an extremely high number of them may be good people, and saying that "˜some' are good people is still not inaccurate (the word 'some' doesn't actually limit the number of individuals there can be).  Where am i going with this?  Oh yeah, if the media can brandish our President a racist by the way it interprets the word "˜some' I can argue that the Japanese people are in bed at 4:30 am. considering many of them are still working at 8 pm the night before.

[jakeroot]

Here's a map I just threw together last night depicting what I'd do with time zones:

I must be color blind. I see dark red, red, green, blue, and purple.