NY 17/"I-86"

[seicer]

The Jewish summer resorts (hotels, cabin colonies, and camps) initially developed in what because known as the "Borscht Belt" because of discrimination as the Jewish were prevented from rooming at many more traditional lakeside and mountain resorts in New York and northern New Jersey and they boomed until the 1960s. Air travel was becoming increasingly convenient and cheap, and the advent of interstate highways and expressways made long-distance automobile travel easier.

(Side note, I've captured a number of those resorts at my site.)

Today, you have a new type of development pattern led by investors and newcomers. One of the former traditional mountainside resorts I explored years ago was snapped up by a Brooklyn couple and restored into an uber-luxury development. A few others were saved like that, but many others were too far gone or too far mangled with additions and complexities that they have been left abandoned or demolished. And then you have the new casino along NY 17... which has been planned for decades at various resorts and finally got built far away from any of them. Legoland was a surprise for me, but land is cheap up there, and it's heavily frequented by the Jewish during the summer months.

There is also the resurgence of natural tourism (which COVID played a part), and New York State has invested over $1 billion into its state park facilities during the Cuomo administration. Katterskill Falls is heavily overused, but at the least, the state has taken the task of rebuilding the north approach to the falls, building a north-south staircase (replacing an informal and dangerous descent), and adding much-needed parking areas. Many others are being controlled with permitting by the DEC because of overuse (looking at you Peekamoose Blue Hole). It's no different in the Adirondacks.

[Rothman]

Although I love NY's state park system, possibly above all others, the Cuomo investment was not always best spent.  Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC.  Kaaterskill needs a quota system rather than more and more parking lots.  And, more rangers are desperately needed due to the rampant influx of people who don't know how to interact with nature responsibly.

As for Jewish tourism in the Catskills, one only needs to see Dirty Dancing.

There was one very bad joke floating around when a new train line was being proposed from the City to the Catskills...so bad that I won't repeat here.

[kalvado]

Although I love NY's state park system, possibly above all others, the Cuomo investment was not always best spent.  Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC.  Kaaterskill needs a quota system rather than more and more parking lots.  And, more rangers are desperately needed due to the rampant influx of people who don't know how to interact with nature responsibly.

As for Jewish tourism in the Catskills, one only needs to see Dirty Dancing.

There was one very bad joke floating around when a new train line was being proposed from the City to the Catskills...so bad that I won't repeat here.

I definitely disagree with "Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC."  Views are just fine, mid-cliff trail is fine, streams were disappearing after the chain of earthquakes - and I am not sure what to think about those concrete "repairs".
Quotas are a touchy subject. I guess auctioning them is a good idea, would keep undesirables away. would help to fund donations to certain politicians upkeep of the area.
There is a real demand for those weekend trips  from NYC folks; I assume the only real way to handle that is to get more point destinations. That is not best for the park, sure, but at least relieves the pressure on most demanded spots. 

[Rothman]

Although I love NY's state park system, possibly above all others, the Cuomo investment was not always best spent.  Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC.  Kaaterskill needs a quota system rather than more and more parking lots.  And, more rangers are desperately needed due to the rampant influx of people who don't know how to interact with nature responsibly.

As for Jewish tourism in the Catskills, one only needs to see Dirty Dancing.

There was one very bad joke floating around when a new train line was being proposed from the City to the Catskills...so bad that I won't repeat here.

I definitely disagree with "Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC."  Views are just fine, mid-cliff trail is fine, streams were disappearing after the chain of earthquakes - and I am not sure what to think about those concrete "repairs".
Quotas are a touchy subject. I guess auctioning them is a good idea, would keep undesirables away. would help to fund donations to certain politicians upkeep of the area.
There is a real demand for those weekend trips  from NYC folks; I assume the only real way to handle that is to get more point destinations. That is not best for the park, sure, but at least relieves the pressure on most demanded spots.

Then you didn't see the view before the VC was built.  Before, it was just trees along there when you stood at the overlook.  Now, there's this big ugly building.  I understand the need for a VC, but it should have been built a little further back from the cliff.  There was ample land to do so without ruining the classic view from the overlook.

[kalvado]

Although I love NY's state park system, possibly above all others, the Cuomo investment was not always best spent.  Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC.  Kaaterskill needs a quota system rather than more and more parking lots.  And, more rangers are desperately needed due to the rampant influx of people who don't know how to interact with nature responsibly.

As for Jewish tourism in the Catskills, one only needs to see Dirty Dancing.

There was one very bad joke floating around when a new train line was being proposed from the City to the Catskills...so bad that I won't repeat here.

I definitely disagree with "Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC."  Views are just fine, mid-cliff trail is fine, streams were disappearing after the chain of earthquakes - and I am not sure what to think about those concrete "repairs".
Quotas are a touchy subject. I guess auctioning them is a good idea, would keep undesirables away. would help to fund donations to certain politicians upkeep of the area.
There is a real demand for those weekend trips  from NYC folks; I assume the only real way to handle that is to get more point destinations. That is not best for the park, sure, but at least relieves the pressure on most demanded spots.

Then you didn't see the view before the VC was built.  Before, it was just trees along there when you stood at the overlook.  Now, there's this big ugly building.  I understand the need for a VC, but it should have been built a little further back from the cliff.  There was ample land to do so without ruining the classic view from the overlook.

A view from the overlook.... I am just not sure if I should be more annoyed with the view of cars behind me, or by the eyesore of  those plaza towers stuffed with NYS bureaucracy. Visitor center is a smaller issue than those for me...  I don't think visitor center is visible form the outlook to begin with.

[Rothman]

Although I love NY's state park system, possibly above all others, the Cuomo investment was not always best spent.  Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC.  Kaaterskill needs a quota system rather than more and more parking lots.  And, more rangers are desperately needed due to the rampant influx of people who don't know how to interact with nature responsibly.

As for Jewish tourism in the Catskills, one only needs to see Dirty Dancing.

There was one very bad joke floating around when a new train line was being proposed from the City to the Catskills...so bad that I won't repeat here.

I definitely disagree with "Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC."  Views are just fine, mid-cliff trail is fine, streams were disappearing after the chain of earthquakes - and I am not sure what to think about those concrete "repairs".
Quotas are a touchy subject. I guess auctioning them is a good idea, would keep undesirables away. would help to fund donations to certain politicians upkeep of the area.
There is a real demand for those weekend trips  from NYC folks; I assume the only real way to handle that is to get more point destinations. That is not best for the park, sure, but at least relieves the pressure on most demanded spots.

Then you didn't see the view before the VC was built.  Before, it was just trees along there when you stood at the overlook.  Now, there's this big ugly building.  I understand the need for a VC, but it should have been built a little further back from the cliff.  There was ample land to do so without ruining the classic view from the overlook.

A view from the overlook.... I am just not sure if I should be more annoyed with the view of cars behind me, or by the eyesore of  those plaza towers stuffed with NYS bureaucracy. Visitor center is a smaller issue than those for me...  I don't think visitor center is visible form the outlook to begin with.

I'm on vacation, but the VC is right on the cliff.  Of course it is visible.

I've got photos somewhere I can share.

[kalvado]

Although I love NY's state park system, possibly above all others, the Cuomo investment was not always best spent.  Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC.  Kaaterskill needs a quota system rather than more and more parking lots.  And, more rangers are desperately needed due to the rampant influx of people who don't know how to interact with nature responsibly.

As for Jewish tourism in the Catskills, one only needs to see Dirty Dancing.

There was one very bad joke floating around when a new train line was being proposed from the City to the Catskills...so bad that I won't repeat here.

I definitely disagree with "Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC."  Views are just fine, mid-cliff trail is fine, streams were disappearing after the chain of earthquakes - and I am not sure what to think about those concrete "repairs".
Quotas are a touchy subject. I guess auctioning them is a good idea, would keep undesirables away. would help to fund donations to certain politicians upkeep of the area.
There is a real demand for those weekend trips  from NYC folks; I assume the only real way to handle that is to get more point destinations. That is not best for the park, sure, but at least relieves the pressure on most demanded spots.

Then you didn't see the view before the VC was built.  Before, it was just trees along there when you stood at the overlook.  Now, there's this big ugly building.  I understand the need for a VC, but it should have been built a little further back from the cliff.  There was ample land to do so without ruining the classic view from the overlook.

A view from the overlook.... I am just not sure if I should be more annoyed with the view of cars behind me, or by the eyesore of  those plaza towers stuffed with NYS bureaucracy. Visitor center is a smaller issue than those for me...  I don't think visitor center is visible form the outlook to begin with.

I'm on vacation, but the VC is right on the cliff.  Of course it is visible.

I've got photos somewhere I can share.

Well, if you are talking about free overlook - no, edge of the cliff has an S like shape, and hides that building. As you walk towards the trail, you get to the visibility point, of course.
And if you are a real old timer, you may remember a swimming pool in Thatchers. It was closed for the reconstruction and supposed to open a year or two later. That is a real eyesore, if you know where to look....

[Rothman]

Although I love NY's state park system, possibly above all others, the Cuomo investment was not always best spent.  Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC.  Kaaterskill needs a quota system rather than more and more parking lots.  And, more rangers are desperately needed due to the rampant influx of people who don't know how to interact with nature responsibly.

As for Jewish tourism in the Catskills, one only needs to see Dirty Dancing.

There was one very bad joke floating around when a new train line was being proposed from the City to the Catskills...so bad that I won't repeat here.

I definitely disagree with "Thacher's view from the cliff is now destroyed by the new VC."  Views are just fine, mid-cliff trail is fine, streams were disappearing after the chain of earthquakes - and I am not sure what to think about those concrete "repairs".
Quotas are a touchy subject. I guess auctioning them is a good idea, would keep undesirables away. would help to fund donations to certain politicians upkeep of the area.
There is a real demand for those weekend trips  from NYC folks; I assume the only real way to handle that is to get more point destinations. That is not best for the park, sure, but at least relieves the pressure on most demanded spots.

Then you didn't see the view before the VC was built.  Before, it was just trees along there when you stood at the overlook.  Now, there's this big ugly building.  I understand the need for a VC, but it should have been built a little further back from the cliff.  There was ample land to do so without ruining the classic view from the overlook.

A view from the overlook.... I am just not sure if I should be more annoyed with the view of cars behind me, or by the eyesore of  those plaza towers stuffed with NYS bureaucracy. Visitor center is a smaller issue than those for me...  I don't think visitor center is visible form the outlook to begin with.

I'm on vacation, but the VC is right on the cliff.  Of course it is visible.

I've got photos somewhere I can share.

Well, if you are talking about free overlook - no, edge of the cliff has an S like shape, and hides that building. As you walk towards the trail, you get to the visibility point, of course.
And if you are a real old timer, you may remember a swimming pool in Thatchers. It was closed for the reconstruction and supposed to open a year or two later. That is a real eyesore, if you know where to look....

Like I said, I should have photos.  From the overlook on the main park road, the view is quite marred.

[kirbykart]

I would like to discuss something about Exit 17: why are the ramps split to allow more direct left and right turns, when the interchange is sparsely used and serves no areas of real population?

Another interesting thing on this route is the potentially overbuilt Exit 10. I understand this stub was part of the Southern Tier Expressway before the Chautauqua Lake bridge was built, but now it just seems ridiculous. Also, I love how some of the signs for the stub's only exit still say Exit 10, because this was Exit 10 of the expressway at one point.

https://goo.gl/maps/sr8GQBz9CmiS38xGA

Keep in mind that the entire contraption serves two state parks and a village of 300.

[Roadgeek Adam]

Exit 10 was also built to have room for the Chautauqua Lakeway (reserved NY 393). Current NY 430 would be truncated and turned over to the county. It was controversial then and is never being built now.

Exit 17 definitely gets more traffic than you'd think for such a remote interchange in Steamburg.

[amroad17]

I would like to discuss something about Exit 17: why are the ramps split to allow more direct left and right turns, when the interchange is sparsely used and serves no areas of real population?

Another interesting thing on this route is the potentially overbuilt Exit 10. I understand this stub was part of the Southern Tier Expressway before the Chautauqua Lake bridge was built, but now it just seems ridiculous. Also, I love how some of the signs for the stub's only exit still say Exit 10, because this was Exit 10 of the expressway at one point.

https://goo.gl/maps/sr8GQBz9CmiS38xGA

Keep in mind that the entire contraption serves two state parks and a village of 300.

NYSDOT is not going to deconstruct what is already finished, unlike Florida (FL 417, FL 408, FL 429) and North Carolina (the freeway that was north of PTI Airport). 

[Rothman]

I would like to discuss something about Exit 17: why are the ramps split to allow more direct left and right turns, when the interchange is sparsely used and serves no areas of real population?

Another interesting thing on this route is the potentially overbuilt Exit 10. I understand this stub was part of the Southern Tier Expressway before the Chautauqua Lake bridge was built, but now it just seems ridiculous. Also, I love how some of the signs for the stub's only exit still say Exit 10, because this was Exit 10 of the expressway at one point.

https://goo.gl/maps/sr8GQBz9CmiS38xGA

Keep in mind that the entire contraption serves two state parks and a village of 300.

NYSDOT is not going to deconstruct what is already finished, unlike Florida (FL 417, FL 408, FL 429) and North Carolina (the freeway that was north of PTI Airport).

I-895...I-81 Viaduct in a few years...

[cockroachking]

I would like to discuss something about Exit 17: why are the ramps split to allow more direct left and right turns, when the interchange is sparsely used and serves no areas of real population?

Another interesting thing on this route is the potentially overbuilt Exit 10. I understand this stub was part of the Southern Tier Expressway before the Chautauqua Lake bridge was built, but now it just seems ridiculous. Also, I love how some of the signs for the stub's only exit still say Exit 10, because this was Exit 10 of the expressway at one point.

https://goo.gl/maps/sr8GQBz9CmiS38xGA

Keep in mind that the entire contraption serves two state parks and a village of 300.

NYSDOT is not going to deconstruct what is already finished, unlike Florida (FL 417, FL 408, FL 429) and North Carolina (the freeway that was north of PTI Airport).

I-895...I-81 Viaduct in a few years...

Nobody is complaining about the Bemus Point connector "dividing" neighborhoods though.

[kalvado]

I would like to discuss something about Exit 17: why are the ramps split to allow more direct left and right turns, when the interchange is sparsely used and serves no areas of real population?

Another interesting thing on this route is the potentially overbuilt Exit 10. I understand this stub was part of the Southern Tier Expressway before the Chautauqua Lake bridge was built, but now it just seems ridiculous. Also, I love how some of the signs for the stub's only exit still say Exit 10, because this was Exit 10 of the expressway at one point.

https://goo.gl/maps/sr8GQBz9CmiS38xGA

Keep in mind that the entire contraption serves two state parks and a village of 300.

NYSDOT is not going to deconstruct what is already finished, unlike Florida (FL 417, FL 408, FL 429) and North Carolina (the freeway that was north of PTI Airport).

I-895...I-81 Viaduct in a few years...

Nobody is complaining about the Bemus Point connector "dividing" neighborhoods though.

Exit 17 I-87 Northway.
https://www.townofmoreau.org/documents/PIN%20104342_U.S.%20Route%209%20over%20Interstate%2087%20at%20Exit%2017_Public%20Information%20Brochure.pdf

[seicer]

There are so many interchanges that are overbuilt that could stand to be condensed or consolidated. For the instance you linked to, NYSDOT is already planning to replace the bridge, which at one time carried four through lanes of traffic for US 9 (and two acceleration/deceleration lanes) over the interstate. It was once planned that US 9 would be four-laned throughout that area, but those plans were scuttled decades ago. And what was once four lanes is now two, rendering about a third of that superstructure unused. What is proposed is a simplified two-lane bridge structure and a simplified ramp structure that preserves half of the interchange.

But that one interchange isn't dividing much of anything. It's a rural area with alternative connections abound. At the least this will make the corridor safer for cyclists (of which there are plenty in the warmer months).

[Bitmapped]

There are so many interchanges that are overbuilt that could stand to be condensed or consolidated. For the instance you linked to, NYSDOT is already planning to replace the bridge, which at one time carried four through lanes of traffic for US 9 (and two acceleration/deceleration lanes) over the interstate. It was once planned that US 9 would be four-laned throughout that area, but those plans were scuttled decades ago. And what was once four lanes is now two, rendering about a third of that superstructure unused. What is proposed is a simplified two-lane bridge structure and a simplified ramp structure that preserves half of the interchange.

It looks like the old bridges here were at the end of their service life. Building a new bridge that's less than half the width is going to save a substantial amount of money now. Narrowing the bridge and unnecessary ramps will also reduce maintenance costs going forward. This is a prudent redesign.

Most agencies aren't going to actively remove rural infrastructure until it's reached the end of its service life. The cost of removal would likely outweigh maintenance savings at that point. But when it comes to the point that structures need to be replaced, most agencies are going to start questioning if they are really needed. PennDOT did this with the PA 8 freeway south of Franklin recently, where traffic counts are a fraction of when the road was built, when it needed a full rehab recently. After a lot of local outcry, they decided to rebuild the freeway as-is.

I would imagine NYSDOT will consider removing the Bemis Point interchange and Route 945H when those bridges are due for replacement.

[seicer]

That's interesting about the PA 8 freeway. I remembered driving on that before its rehab, and it did not appear that PennDOT had done much to the roadway since it opened around 1975. There was also next to no traffic. I don't think PennDOT will be completing the freeway to I-80 any time soon. But the rehab cost... $30 million? If one carriageway was removed and passing lanes added to the other carriageway, would it have saved PennDOT that much money? Perhaps not, but once those Sandy Creek Bridges reach the end of their service life that may be another question.

[74/171FAN]

That's interesting about the PA 8 freeway. I remembered driving on that before its rehab, and it did not appear that PennDOT had done much to the roadway since it opened around 1975. There was also next to no traffic. I don't think PennDOT will be completing the freeway to I-80 any time soon. But the rehab cost... $30 million? If one carriageway was removed and passing lanes added to the other carriageway, would it have saved PennDOT that much money? Perhaps not, but once those Sandy Creek Bridges reach the end of their service life that may be another question.

My understanding was that the lack of savings ultimately led to PennDOT leaving PA 8 as-is.

[yakra]

At the least this will make the corridor safer for cyclists (of which there are plenty in the warmer months).

I was wondering (with some annoyance) why they were removing those free-flowing right-turn movements. But this makes sense.

[cockroachking]

At the least this will make the corridor safer for cyclists (of which there are plenty in the warmer months).

I was wondering (with some annoyance) why they were removing those free-flowing right-turn movements. But this makes sense.

Worth noting that one of these eliminated free right turns (US-9 NB to I-87 SB) served a measly 225 cars/day. Hard to justify plowing that ramp in the winter.

[kirbykart]

The I-86 was closed today (I don't know what stretch) due to a (probably snow-related) car accident.

[Roadgeekteen]

Control City Freak just uploaded a new video about I-86. In that video, he complaned that NYC is signed in Binghamton for I-86 when I-81/I-380/I-80 is faster. Thoughts?

[zzcarp]

Control City Freak just uploaded a new video about I-86. In that video, he complaned that NYC is signed in Binghamton for I-86 when I-81/I-380/I-80 is faster. Thoughts?

To the George Washington Bridge, it seems to be basically the same mileage and same time. Maps to generic "New York City" which hits in lower Manhattan, it's approx. 11 miles shorter. This seems like a nothingburger complaint.

[webny99]

Yes, it is faster to go through PA and NJ to get to Lower Manhattan, but it's it's close enough that it depends on where in the city you're going. I agree that it's a non-issue. It's not really any different than the Thruway signing Boston for I-87 South to the Berkshire Connector instead of free I-90.

[jp the roadgeek]

I thought about Middletown as a control for 86 East at the 81 split, and while it is an interstate junction, more traffic would be going to NYC, and it will be a more viable option should the gaps ever be filled.  The funny thing is someone suggested Hartford as a control, which of course requires a transfer to I-84.  Yes, Hartford was once a control for I-86...the old one that ran from East Hartford to Sturbridge. 

Oh, and if PennDOT really had it out for the NYTA, they'd make NYC the control for I-86 on the I-90 Exit.  And I would've put Erie and Cleveland on that first mileage sign in PA westbound; who is taking I-86 West into PA to go to Buffalo?