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Proposed US 412 Upgrade

Started by US71, May 22, 2021, 02:35:11 PM

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sprjus4

Quote from: splashflash on June 21, 2024, 11:07:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 25, 2024, 01:20:05 AMUS-412 already bypassed Inola long ago, so Interstate upgrades are an improvement with no downside to them.
That appears notmtombe the case according the Inola town manager. https://www.muskogeephoenix.com/news/inola-administrator-says-interstate-through-town-would-shrink-budget-stunt-growth/article_22fd71f8-9c3e-55c5-9e13-a250989a9a2d.html

Interstate interchanges must be at least two miles apart. Scott Devers, Inola's town administrator, said this requirement will have a "big negative impact" on Inola because it will cut off businesses along South 4200 Road that benefit from its intersection with U.S. 412.

State Route 88 intersects U.S. 412 less than two miles away, and since that interchange would almost certainly remain, the businesses on South 4200 Road would find themselves on a dead end.

Devers said Inola will be the Oklahoma town most negatively affected by the interstate because it relies heavily on the businesses on this road.

"One of our biggest areas that we generate sales tax — which the city of Inola only lives on sales tax — is being cut off, and we're going to lose probably near 30% of our annual budget," Devers said.

Couldn't they construct a frontage road tying into SR-88?


splashflash

#1151
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 22, 2024, 12:18:53 AM
Quote from: splashflash on June 21, 2024, 11:07:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 25, 2024, 01:20:05 AMUS-412 already bypassed Inola long ago, so Interstate upgrades are an improvement with no downside to them.
That appears notmtombe the case according the Inola town manager. https://www.muskogeephoenix.com/news/inola-administrator-says-interstate-through-town-would-shrink-budget-stunt-growth/article_22fd71f8-9c3e-55c5-9e13-a250989a9a2d.html

Interstate interchanges must be at least two miles apart. Scott Devers, Inola's town administrator, said this requirement will have a "big negative impact" on Inola because it will cut off businesses along South 4200 Road that benefit from its intersection with U.S. 412.

State Route 88 intersects U.S. 412 less than two miles away, and since that interchange would almost certainly remain, the businesses on South 4200 Road would find themselves on a dead end.

Devers said Inola will be the Oklahoma town most negatively affected by the interstate because it relies heavily on the businesses on this road.

"One of our biggest areas that we generate sales tax — which the city of Inola only lives on sales tax — is being cut off, and we're going to lose probably near 30% of our annual budget," Devers said.

Couldn't they construct a frontage road tying into SR-88?
Sounds like they may plan to do that but it would have to be cost-shared between Inola and ODOT.  Snips,from story:

"Devers and Burrows both said ODOT could minimize negative effects on Inola by adding frontage roads along the edges of the new interstate. That way, fewer roads would terminate with dead ends.

"Devers said he ultimately supports the new interstate because it will benefit the entire state, but he hopes ODOT will consider offsetting the harm it may cause his town.

"T.J. Gerlach, spokesperson for ODOT, said if enough people tell the department they want frontage roads, it would "certainly put it under consideration." Gerlach said it's likely ODOT will ask local jurisdictions to chip in for frontage roads because they would benefit most from them.

Scott5114

Quote from: splashflash on June 21, 2024, 11:07:44 PMInterstate interchanges must be at least two miles apart.

I have no idea why the Inola government believes this, because it's not true. Plenty of counterexamples exist in Tulsa.

Perhaps ODOT is trying to cheap out and not put an interchange here, so they sold Inola this line of shit to try to avoid having to build a second interchange.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

bugo

There are only a few businesses on that stretch of road, including a Subway, a Sinclair station, a church, a nail salon, a day care and some houses. I-42 becoming a freeway is more important than those 5 businesses.

Road Hog

A Love's at that one interchange would offset the loss of sales tax revenue in multiples.

Bobby5280

Quote from: splashflashInterstate interchanges must be at least two miles apart.

Since when? Here in Lawton I-44 has exits for Lee Blvd, Gore Blvd, Cache Road and Rogers Lane spaced only 1 mile apart. In many urban areas with large capacity freeways there are instances were multiple exit and entrance ramps are spaced much closer together. But that often involves features like braided ramps to eliminate traffic weaving conflicts.

In the case of Inola, I can't imagine why anyone driving on US-412 and going to a location in Inola wouldn't just take the existing exit for OK-88 to get there. I can see a carve-out of ROW for a new exit at S4240 Road a couple miles East of Inola.

Plutonic Panda

I thought the standard was a mile and that's just rural. Older segments seem to have exits closer but I can't recall specific examples. I also don't see an issue of close exits with braided ramps.

Rothman

Interstate 81 is getting a new interchange about a mile and a half north of Route 31 north of Syracuse. As far as I know, Federal Highway has not opposed the distance.

(Personal opinion emphasized)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Scott5114

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 22, 2024, 03:46:12 PMI thought the standard was a mile and that's just rural. Older segments seem to have exits closer but I can't recall specific examples. I also don't see an issue of close exits with braided ramps.

I would hope that ODOT has the good sense to not resort to braided ramps to serve friggin' Inola.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2024, 04:21:50 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 22, 2024, 03:46:12 PMI thought the standard was a mile and that's just rural. Older segments seem to have exits closer but I can't recall specific examples. I also don't see an issue of close exits with braided ramps.

I would hope that ODOT has the good sense to not resort to braided ramps to serve friggin' Inola.
Oh of course, that would be complete overkill. I'm just saying in areas where they would be justified that is a solution to closely placed exits and entries.

But then again, Inola may take OKC's route and start calling themselves big league. Then the braided ramps will come.

NE2

ODOT was wrong about the policy, but it's only 1/2 mile between the roads, so it's a no-go whatever. Looks like an obvious candidate for a frontage road like one often sees at interchanges to a clump of businesses.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

SpanHog

My long term master plan was for a potential I-50 to stretch from maybe Reno or Las Vegas eastward thru the Four Corners, upgrading US 412 in NM, OK, AR and TN and terminating at I-40 near Nashville

Scott5114

#1162
Quote from: SpanHog on July 04, 2024, 11:42:34 PMMy long term master plan was for a potential I-50 to stretch from maybe Reno or Las Vegas eastward thru the Four Corners, upgrading US 412 in NM, OK, AR and TN and terminating at I-40 near Nashville

There's a rather large geographic feature in Northern Arizona that would prevent that.

As for a Interstate to Reno...Nevada DOT is theoretically working on that, but it would be I-11 if it ever happens.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

The Ghostbuster

I doubt a US 412 freeway or tollway would be needed west of Enid, OK (and most definitely not all the way to Springer, NM). 412 also would not need to be a freeway east of the proposed eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass. It might be possible to make freeway upgrades to the 412 corridor in Tennessee between Interstate 155 and Interstate 40, but beyond 40 there is likely no need for upgrades.

Scott5114

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 05, 2024, 01:24:24 PMI doubt a US 412 freeway or tollway would be needed west of Enid, OK (and most definitely not all the way to Springer, NM). 412 also would not need to be a freeway east of the proposed eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass. It might be possible to make freeway upgrades to the 412 corridor in Tennessee between Interstate 155 and Interstate 40, but beyond 40 there is likely no need for upgrades.

I think you could make a case for running it to Boise City and ending there at the extended I-27 that's proposed, especially if you had a diagonal freeway from Oklahoma City tying into it at Woodward. But anything west of there is a lot more questionable.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Bobby5280

I have my fantasy route of an Oklahoma City to Denver diagonal Interstate. The US-412/I-42 thing could tie into that in Woodward, OK. Basically the route would start along or near OK-3 on the NW corner of the OKC metro. It would shoot a new terrain diagonal from Okarche to Watonga and then overlap US-270 to Woodward and farther up to Fort Supply. From that point the diagonal path would continue on new terrain until it reaches the diagonal path of US-287 at Kit Carson, CO. The Interstate would end at I-70 in Limon, CO. Or it would end at Kit Carson if I-27 was built there.

The Interstate highway system has a lot of Southwest to Northeast diagonal routes, especially in the Eastern half of the nation. There is next to nothing in terms of diagonal routes running the opposite direction, from the Northwest to Southeast. Under current circumstances I can't see the Western version of I-42 going West past I-35. But if a diagonal Interstate from OKC to Denver was built then the I-42 route in Oklahoma could certainly be extended West to tie into it.

Road Hog

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2024, 09:08:12 AM
Quote from: SpanHog on July 04, 2024, 11:42:34 PMMy long term master plan was for a potential I-50 to stretch from maybe Reno or Las Vegas eastward thru the Four Corners, upgrading US 412 in NM, OK, AR and TN and terminating at I-40 near Nashville

There's a rather large geographic feature in Northern Arizona that would prevent that.

Nothing that 5,280-foot piers can't solve. :)

edwaleni

Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 06, 2024, 12:11:57 AMI have my fantasy route of an Oklahoma City to Denver diagonal Interstate. The US-412/I-42 thing could tie into that in Woodward, OK. Basically the route would start along or near OK-3 on the NW corner of the OKC metro. It would shoot a new terrain diagonal from Okarche to Watonga and then overlap US-270 to Woodward and farther up to Fort Supply. From that point the diagonal path would continue on new terrain until it reaches the diagonal path of US-287 at Kit Carson, CO. The Interstate would end at I-70 in Limon, CO. Or it would end at Kit Carson if I-27 was built there.

The Interstate highway system has a lot of Southwest to Northeast diagonal routes, especially in the Eastern half of the nation. There is next to nothing in terms of diagonal routes running the opposite direction, from the Northwest to Southeast. Under current circumstances I can't see the Western version of I-42 going West past I-35. But if a diagonal Interstate from OKC to Denver was built then the I-42 route in Oklahoma could certainly be extended West to tie into it.

Probably belongs in Fictional Highways, but I suspect the Ports to Plains Highway will probably serve the purpose you are seeking and have little to no relationship to US-412.

But I don't disagree with your premise in NW/SE highway orientation. But the biggest SW/NE oriented highway the US has isn't even finished yet. (I-69)

MikieTimT

Quote from: edwaleni on July 11, 2024, 10:00:12 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 06, 2024, 12:11:57 AMI have my fantasy route of an Oklahoma City to Denver diagonal Interstate. The US-412/I-42 thing could tie into that in Woodward, OK. Basically the route would start along or near OK-3 on the NW corner of the OKC metro. It would shoot a new terrain diagonal from Okarche to Watonga and then overlap US-270 to Woodward and farther up to Fort Supply. From that point the diagonal path would continue on new terrain until it reaches the diagonal path of US-287 at Kit Carson, CO. The Interstate would end at I-70 in Limon, CO. Or it would end at Kit Carson if I-27 was built there.

The Interstate highway system has a lot of Southwest to Northeast diagonal routes, especially in the Eastern half of the nation. There is next to nothing in terms of diagonal routes running the opposite direction, from the Northwest to Southeast. Under current circumstances I can't see the Western version of I-42 going West past I-35. But if a diagonal Interstate from OKC to Denver was built then the I-42 route in Oklahoma could certainly be extended West to tie into it.

Probably belongs in Fictional Highways, but I suspect the Ports to Plains Highway will probably serve the purpose you are seeking and have little to no relationship to US-412.

But I don't disagree with your premise in NW/SE highway orientation. But the biggest SW/NE oriented highway the US has isn't even finished yet. (I-69)

Which I-69 coincidentally crosses the one section of US-412 east of I-49 that is interstate grade, I-155.

Bobby5280

Quote from: edwaleniProbably belongs in Fictional Highways, but I suspect the Ports to Plains Highway will probably serve the purpose you are seeking and have little to no relationship to US-412.

Amarillo is a pretty good way West of Oklahoma City and not along a diagonal at all between OKC and Denver.

edwaleni

Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 11, 2024, 03:52:02 PM
Quote from: edwaleniProbably belongs in Fictional Highways, but I suspect the Ports to Plains Highway will probably serve the purpose you are seeking and have little to no relationship to US-412.

Amarillo is a pretty good way West of Oklahoma City and not along a diagonal at all between OKC and Denver.

The "diagonal" would essentially be from Amarillo to Raton.  Otherwise its 35>135>70 via Salina KS.

If the new US-412 from Springdale AR to Enid, OK creates a new traffic pattern justifying the route perhaps, but at this point it would still be very fictional.

splashflash

Quote from: edwaleni on July 11, 2024, 05:06:44 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 11, 2024, 03:52:02 PM
Quote from: edwaleniProbably belongs in Fictional Highways, but I suspect the Ports to Plains Highway will probably serve the purpose you are seeking and have little to no relationship to US-412.

Amarillo is a pretty good way West of Oklahoma City and not along a diagonal at all between OKC and Denver.

The "diagonal" would essentially be from Amarillo to Raton.  Otherwise its 35>135>70 via Salina KS.

If the new US-412 from Springdale AR to Enid, OK creates a new traffic pattern justifying the route perhaps, but at this point it would still be very fictional.

Northwest of Witchita, Kansas there is the KS-96 to Hutchison which serves as a mini-diagonal to I-70.

Bobby5280

Quote from: edwaleniThe "diagonal" would essentially be from Amarillo to Raton.  Otherwise its 35>135>70 via Salina KS.

By that standard then maybe I-44 should never have been built. People driving from OKC to St Louis should have should have just been doing a big "L" shape via I-35 and I-70.

Both Denver and OKC are major hubs in the Interstate highway system. A direct, diagonal route between those two hubs would be beneficial to the overall highway system.

MikieTimT

Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 11, 2024, 11:06:54 PM
Quote from: edwaleniThe "diagonal" would essentially be from Amarillo to Raton.  Otherwise its 35>135>70 via Salina KS.

By that standard then maybe I-44 should never have been built. People driving from OKC to St Louis should have should have just been doing a big "L" shape via I-35 and I-70.

Both Denver and OKC are major hubs in the Interstate highway system. A direct, diagonal route between those two hubs would be beneficial to the overall highway system.

A diagnonal from OKC to Denver along OK-3, and then new terrain from Fort Supply, OK to Kit Carson, CO would be a good gap filler for a major SE<->NW diagnonal across the country in conjunction with I-22.  Can't really do any better through the Rockies from Denver to Seattle than I-25 and I-90 than they already do, but with the flat terrain in OK, KS, and CO, it would be fairly easy to do new terrain across that terrain. The route would probably need to go near Liberal, KS to have a town of some significance in the middle for auto/truck services and fuel, otherwise, the gap would be rather ominous and desolate from a mileage perspective for travelers as the diagnonal doesn't really go near any other towns of significance for services.  I personally wouldn't use it from OKC, but I'd take US-412 from NWA to Fort Supply and then swing NW to the Colorado Springs/Denver trips that we regularly take.   

Bobby5280

It's very easy to draw a straight line from the diagonal of US-287 between Limon and Kit Carson to the diagonal of OK-3 from Fort Supply and Woodward down toward OKC. Straight shot from Kit Carson to Fort Supply. No mountains or other difficult terrain in the way. A diagonal highway linking Denver & OKC could be the western equivalent of I-44 linking OKC and St Louis. It's just flipping the diagonal highway 180 degrees. The route would be just as important, if not even more so due to the sheer lack of redundancy in Western super highways.

Yeah, there would naturally be a lot of political push to shift such a route in different directions to connect directly to towns not exactly in the straight shot path. Shifting the route via Liberal would pull it a bit South. I don't think Garden City would be all that bad an alternative, but it would pull the straight shot path a bit north. The smaller Kansas towns of Plains, Sublette and Syracuse would be more on the straight shot path.

But, again to try to keep it on topic, this kind of highway would be the very thing that would allow a US-412 Interstate to be extended West of I-35. There is virtually zero chance of "I-42" getting built out to Boise City and Raton under current circumstances. I could maybe see an I-135 route getting built from the I-35/I-42 interchange to Enid. That's about it. The only way I-42 would get extended farther West to a point like Woodward was if I-42 was tying into another major corridor.



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