Dallas: I-345

[bwana39]

Notice of Public Meeting INTERSTATE 345 (I-345) From I-30 to Woodall Rodgers Freeway (Spur 366) CSJ: 0092-14-094 Dallas County, Texas
The Texas Department of Transportation (TxDOT) is conducting a feasibility study for improvements to I-345 from I-30 to Woodall Rodgers Freeway (Spur 366) in Dallas County, a distance of 1.4 miles. This notice advises the public that TxDOT will be conducting an online virtual public meeting on the proposed study with two in-person options.
The same information will be presented at the in-person and virtual meetings.
In-Person Meeting 1
Tuesday, May 24, 2022
5:30 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. (Open House)
St. Philip's School and Community Center
Gymnasium
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Dallas, Texas 75215
Served by DART bus route 002
**********************************
In-Person Meeting 2
Thursday, May 26, 2022
3 p.m. to 6:30 p.m. (Open House)
Sheraton Dallas Hotel
Dallas Ballroom
400 Olive Street
Dallas, Texas 75201
Served by DART bus routes 024, 036, and 084
*****************************************
Virtual Meeting
Tuesday, May 24, 2022, at 5:30 p.m. through Monday, June 27, 2022, at 11:59 p.m.
www.keepitmovingdallas.com/I345
*This is not a live event
Please note, complimentary parking in the Sheraton Hotel parking garage will be provided for meeting attendees. Attendees should bring their parking ticket into the meeting for validation. Validation will be provided for self-parking only. In recognition of COVID-19, enhanced safety measures will be applied at the in-person option at St. Philip's School and Community Center, including a requirement to wear a face mask and a temperature check.
The virtual meeting will consist of a pre-recorded video presentation and will include both audio and visual components. The virtual meeting materials will be posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2022, at 5:30 p.m. and remain online through Monday, June 27, 2022, at 11:59 p.m. Please note, this is not a live event. The materials can be viewed at your convenience. To log onto the virtual public meeting, go to the study website listed above any time during the dates and times indicated above. If you do not have internet access, you may call (214) 320-6200 between the hours of 8 a.m. and 5 p.m., Monday through Friday, to ask questions and access study materials. Additionally, TxDOT is providing in-person options for individuals who would like to participate in person. In-person attendees will be able to view the same presentation delivered in the online public meeting on a screen, review study materials, ask questions of TxDOT staff and/or consultants, and leave written comments.
Both virtual and in-person attendees will be able to learn about the study process and provide input on the recommended alternative for the future of I-345. As Dallas County population continues to grow and I-345 reaches its estimated remaining useful service life, it is necessary to plan for the future of the roadway. This study will help to determine the future of I-345.
Maps showing the study location as well as study approach information will be available for viewing at the virtual and in-person public meetings and available for public inspection Monday through Friday between the hours of 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. at the TxDOT Dallas District Office located at 4777 E. Highway 80, Mesquite, Texas 75150.
The virtual public meeting and in-person options will be conducted in English. If you need an interpreter or document translator because English is not your primary language or you have difficulty communicating effectively in English, one will be provided to you. If you have a disability and need assistance, special arrangements can be made to accommodate most needs. If you need interpretation or translation services or you are a person with a disability who requires an accommodation to attend and participate in the virtual public meeting or in-person options, please contact TxDOT Dallas District Public Information Office at (214) 320-4480 no later than 4 p.m., Tuesday, May 17, 2022. Please be aware that advance notice is required as some services and accommodations may require time for TxDOT to arrange.
Comments from the public regarding the proposed study are requested and may be submitted by email to 345study@txdot.gov , by mail to the TxDOT Dallas District Office, Attention: Grace Lo, P.E., 4777 E. Highway 80, Mesquite, Texas 75150-6643 or by calling (833) 933-0439 to record a verbal comment. All comments must be received on or before Monday, June 27, 2022, to be included in the official public meeting record.
If you have any general questions or concerns regarding the proposed study, please contact the TxDOT Project Manager, Ms. Grace Lo, P.E., at (214) 320-6200 or by email at 345study@txdot.gov.
The environmental review, consultation, and other actions required by applicable Federal environmental laws for this project are being, or have been, carried-out by TxDOT pursuant to 23 U.S.C. 327 and a Memorandum of Understanding dated December 9, 2019, and executed by FHWA and TxDOT.

[kernals12]

TxDOT dropped a video with their preferred design. It's going to be below grade and have fewer entrances and exits than the current freeway

[MaxConcrete]

All materials including schematic and video are now available. https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/I345

The selected option is the Hybrid option. The only suspense coming into this meeting was which below-ground option would be selected: hybrid or depressed.
As kernals12 mentioned, hybrid has reduced entrance/exits, reduced frontage lanes and more surface street connectivity compared to the depressed option.

Hybrid option has
* 5x5 main lanes
* No frontage roads on most of the length, with minimal frontage roads on the north end
* Interchange at IH-30 to be rebuilt as 5-level with IH-345 main lanes on the 3rd level and connection ramps on levels 4 and 5. Interchange is currently 4-level with IH-345 on top.

Changes to the hybrid option since the last design
* There is a deck over the southbound main lanes adjacent to Carpenter Plaza park. The deck will allow expansion of the park. Southbound Cesar Chavez lanes are now positioned above the middle of the freeway, and northbound Cesar Chavez lanes are over the right side of the northbound main lanes with a gap leaving some of the northbound lanes uncovered.
* Schematic shows much fewer areas as deck cap potential areas
* Accommodations for new DART rail line causes the loss of one southbound exit lane
* In the southbound direction there is a barrier between the far left lane and the other 4 lanes. The far left lane originates from the ramp from eastbound Spur 366. Presumably this is to avoid weaving and also allow that connection to not be affected by the usual backups of traffic going to the IH-30 ramps.
* Cost for the hybrid option is listed as $1 billion, which seems low to me, especially if that cost number includes rebuilding the IH-30 interchange, which is probably at least $300 million.

This is a good outcome for the recommended option, since the option of freeway removal was heavily promoted by certain anti-freeway interests. Of course, this is not the end of the story, as the struggles of Houston's NHHIP demonstrate. Nothing is final until construction actually starts, and since that is probably far in the future, there's plenty of time for opposition to launch attacks against this plan.

[Plutonic Panda]

My only real issue with this is the atgrade dart tracks other than that I can get behind it.

[kernals12]

All materials including schematic and video are now available. https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/I345

The selected option is the Hybrid option. The only suspense coming into this meeting was which below-ground option would be selected: hybrid or depressed.
As kernals12 mentioned, hybrid has reduced entrance/exits, reduced frontage lanes and more surface street connectivity compared to the depressed option.

Hybrid option has
* 5x5 main lanes
* No frontage roads on most of the length, with minimal frontage roads on the north end
* Interchange at IH-30 to be rebuilt as 5-level with IH-345 main lanes on the 3rd level and connection ramps on levels 4 and 5. Interchange is currently 4-level with IH-345 on top.

Changes to the hybrid option since the last design
* There is a deck over the southbound main lanes adjacent to Carpenter Plaza park. The deck will allow expansion of the park. Southbound Cesar Chavez lanes are now positioned above the middle of the freeway, and northbound Cesar Chavez lanes are over the right side of the northbound main lanes with a gap leaving some of the northbound lanes uncovered.
* Schematic shows much fewer areas as deck cap potential areas
* Accommodations for new DART rail line causes the loss of one southbound exit lane
* In the southbound direction there is a barrier between the far left lane and the other 4 lanes. The far left lane originates from the ramp from eastbound Spur 366. Presumably this is to avoid weaving and also allow that connection to not be affected by the usual backups of traffic going to the IH-30 ramps.
* Cost for the hybrid option is listed as $1 billion, which seems low to me, especially if that cost number includes rebuilding the IH-30 interchange, which is probably at least $300 million.

This is a good outcome for the recommended option, since the option of freeway removal was heavily promoted by certain anti-freeway interests. Of course, this is not the end of the story, as the struggles of Houston's NHHIP demonstrate. Nothing is final until construction actually starts, and since that is probably far in the future, there's plenty of time for opposition to launch attacks against this plan.

NHHIP is going to require the displacement of hundreds of homes and businesses, this won't, and will actually create lots of surplus ROW. Dallas' equivalent to NHHIP was the widening of North Central Expressway, which was 25 years ago.

The real issue is cost. $1 billion for 1.4 miles of freeway. I think they'll have to consolidate it with a rebuild of The Canyon.

I just hope this new I-345 is less confusing to navigate than the current one. It's very easy to miss your exit, especially since Dallas drivers don't know what turn signals are for.

[armadillo speedbump]

Dallas City Council is very adept at demanding the waste of huge amounts of money for virtue signaling projects.  Except this time, unlike with their peacock bridges over the Trinity, they don't have a wealthy donor to cover much of the cost.  Did they ever find a fix to finally open the ped/bike components of the I-30 fake suspension bridge?  (Not that many would walk or bike next to a 60 mph freeway, it's the symbolism that counts.)  Giant long span arches with no functional reason for such a costly design, since the freeway bridge in between these ped/bike monuments were plain ol' typical short highway spans.  Such a phony gimmick, but quite expensive, here's a view of the reality from the Commerce bridge:

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7758815,-96.8180111,3a,18y,173.31h,88.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUgGe5G9tDfBRo5DpYB_LtA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DUgGe5G9tDfBRo5DpYB_LtA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D142.75252%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

$1.4 billion could go a long way to fixing actual mobility problems.

[Chris]

Keeping the freeway in place is essential, the 2019 traffic count was 184,000 vehicles per day. It isn't some spur viaduct such as that freeway they demolished in Milwaukee. It's an integral part of the Dallas freeway system, connecting south to north.

184,000 v.p.d. cannot just be detoured along I-35E. It would overwhelm the interchanges with traffic turning off at a far higher volume than they are designed for. Just look at the design for the Houston I-45 project, how much they have to invest to reroute traffic away from current I-45 before it can be demolished.

On the other hand, the design shows no decks being built over the freeway. It remains a traffic environment with so many multi-lane cross streets. Even without continuous frontage roads.

[Henry]

The "fake suspension bridge" is a cable-stayed bridge. However, it's not a traditional design, like the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge on the Woodall Rogers Freeway upstream, and even that is a twisted version with a St. Louis Arch-like central pier.

As to the I-345 decision, I'm glad they're keeping it in place, because to remove it would make traffic on I-35E so much worse than it already is. Not to mention that it's a vital link to the US 75 freeway north of town.

[Bobby5280]

I think the I-345 design concept is pretty good. My only gripe, a minor one, is that more capacity (lanes) couldn't be added than the 5x5 max. Hopefully the signs and lane markers will be clear enough to motorists. Some of the on/off ramps are pretty long. If you miss your exit you're going to be driving a good bit before you can back-track.

On the other hand, the design shows no decks being built over the freeway. It remains a traffic environment with so many multi-lane cross streets. Even without continuous frontage roads.

There is a partial deck over Carpenter Plaza Park. The Southbound lanes are covered up by it.

Although there will still be lots of streets and even intersections built over the new freeway, I think the end results will be more walk-able. Every street crossing over the freeway will have dedicated sidewalks. The street bridges over the freeway can be dressed up with more bushes and potted trees to partially hide the freeway from view. The intersections will have crosswalks (just like most other parts of Downtown Dallas). The overhead viaduct will be gone, which will open a lot more sky space.

[kernals12]

I think the I-345 design concept is pretty good. My only gripe, a minor one, is that more capacity (lanes) couldn't be added than the 5x5 max. Hopefully the signs and lane markers will be clear enough to motorists. Some of the on/off ramps are pretty long. If you miss your exit you're going to be driving a good bit before you can back-track.

On the other hand, the design shows no decks being built over the freeway. It remains a traffic environment with so many multi-lane cross streets. Even without continuous frontage roads.

There is a partial deck over Carpenter Plaza Park. The Southbound lanes are covered up by it.

Although there will still be lots of streets and even intersections built over the new freeway, I think the end results will be more walk-able. Every street crossing over the freeway will have dedicated sidewalks. The street bridges over the freeway can be dressed up with more bushes and potted trees to partially hide the freeway from view. The intersections will have crosswalks (just like most other parts of Downtown Dallas). The overhead viaduct will be gone, which will open a lot more sky space.

I don't think anyone believed lanes could be added. It would just create bottlenecks

[Plutonic Panda]

Eventually TxDOT will need to come back and explore alternatives for widening US-75. Only option realistically will be tunnels or expanding the current setup by a lane each way resulting in more of the service roads over the freeway.

[kernals12]

Eventually TxDOT will need to come back and explore alternatives for widening US-75. Only option realistically will be tunnels or expanding the current setup by a lane each way resulting in more of the service roads over the freeway.

No, the only thing for that is to tell drivers to start taking the LBJ Freeway

[Bobby5280]

Yeesh! The thought of trying to widen North Central Expressway to the North of Downtown Dallas is pretty frightening. I still remember when they were working on the previous widening project back in the 1990's. What a mess that was. Back then I loved watching movies at the General Cinemas Northpark 1-2 theater at Northpark Mall. Getting to the theater via the nearby road construction was a real PITA. The Northpark's #1 house (1200 seats) had one of the original THX sound systems from the Return of the Jedi 70mm release in 1983. The sound quality there was outstanding; it blew away any other commercial theater I had visited, including some premiere-class locations in New York City. The sub-bass was so powerful it would rumble the air inside my chest. That big twin cinema was torn down over 20 years ago for Northpark Mall expansion. An AMC 15-plex was built there later. It has a Dolby Cinema house and an IMAX Laser house, but neither really compare to the scale of the old GCC Northpark 1-2. There is just something different about walking into a theater auditorium that has over 1000 seats.

[kernals12]

Yeesh! The thought of trying to widen North Central Expressway to the North of Downtown Dallas is pretty frightening. I still remember when they were working on the previous widening project back in the 1990's. What a mess that was. Back then I loved watching movies at the General Cinemas Northpark 1-2 theater at Northpark Mall. Getting to the theater via the nearby road construction was a real PITA. The Northpark's #1 house (1200 seats) had one of the original THX sound systems from the Return of the Jedi 70mm release in 1983. The sound quality there was outstanding; it blew away any other commercial theater I had visited, including some premiere-class locations in New York City. The sub-bass was so powerful it would rumble the air inside my chest. That big twin cinema was torn down over 20 years ago for Northpark Mall expansion. An AMC 15-plex was built there later. It has a Dolby Cinema house and an IMAX Laser house, but neither really compare to the scale of the old GCC Northpark 1-2. There is just something different about walking into a theater auditorium that has over 1000 seats.

You really went off topic there

[kernals12]

I also don't think widening US 75 is necessary. When I was visiting Dallas, I drove down it at 10 AM on a Wednesday and there weren't any major backups.

[Plutonic Panda]

I also don't think widening US 75 is necessary. When I was visiting Dallas, I drove down it at 10 AM on a Wednesday and there weren't any major backups.

I visit Dallas somewhat often(once or twice a month) and to me US-75 is the most congested stretch of road in Dallas. It reminds me of a less congested 101 in LA but still.

[J N Winkler]

I struggle to imagine how US 75 could be widened at reasonable cost with the cantilevered frontage roads.  The one time I drove it, I was headed north from I-345 early on a Monday afternoon, and I found it to be congested though still flowing reasonably well.  I've been within sight of it other times in the middle of the day (a DART line closely parallels it) and have seen traffic backups.

[kernals12]

I also don't think widening US 75 is necessary. When I was visiting Dallas, I drove down it at 10 AM on a Wednesday and there weren't any major backups.

I visit Dallas somewhat often(once or twice a month) and to me US-75 is the most congested stretch of road in Dallas. It reminds me of a less congested 101 in LA but still.

I'm pretty sure that title goes to either the I-30 canyon or the LBJ Freeway.

[kernals12]

Here's my slightly less outrageous solution: turn all of Loop 12 into a freeway.

[bwana39]

I also don't think widening US 75 is necessary. When I was visiting Dallas, I drove down it at 10 AM on a Wednesday and there weren't any major backups.

I visit Dallas somewhat often(once or twice a month) and to me US-75 is the most congested stretch of road in Dallas. It reminds me of a less congested 101 in LA but still.

What about LBJ? Admittedly they are upgrading the last portion. Stemmons? Seems like inbound is backed up all the way to PGBT? 

[Road Hog]

Traveling on Central northbound from Woodall is usually a breeze, unless there is an accident.

There are two places southbound where traffic continually stacks up on Central: just south of the High Five where you have four on-ramps merging in rapid succession; and approaching Woodall as 70 percent of the traffic tries to merge right to get onto Woodall. 

[Bobby5280]

You really went off topic there

Not so much. I saw nearly all the progress on the North Central Expressway widening in the 1990's via visits to Northpark Mall and that premiere-class movie theater. That freeway widening project was very disruptive. There were times where I just had to take different routes to get to Northpark Mall, like going down I-35E to Loop 12 and taking that East. There was quite a bit of stop and go driving due to the traffic lights. But there were times that was easier than taking LBJ Freeway over to North Central and slogging South through all the construction zones.

Eventually the construction on North Central finished around the Loop 12 intersection and Northpark Mall area as work continued on farther South. As the project progressed South of Lovers Lane that's where they had to start hanging the access roads partially over the main lanes of the depressed freeway. That seemed like the most difficult part of the project.

Overall, I think North Central Expressway is maxed out on space. Just adding one lane in each direction would require a major re-build and acquisition of more ROW. Even if elevated ramps were built above the main lanes space is still needed for the support pylons and access ramps. There doesn't appear to be any spare real estate for that. Portions of that area have some high income residents. They might cry foul about elevated viaducts.

[bwana39]

I tend to agree, Central is about as wide as it ever will be. Bout the only option is to revive the East Dallas North-South Freeway from the 1963 freeway plan... Not really a happening thing.

I think we should consider the freeways nearly built out in Dallas proper. Perhaps rebuild and make some minor expansions to the roads that are still intact from the sixties, but that is about it.

[kernals12]

I tend to agree, Central is about as wide as it ever will be. Bout the only option is to revive the East Dallas North-South Freeway from the 1963 freeway plan... Not really a happening thing.

I think we should consider the freeways nearly built out in Dallas proper. Perhaps rebuild and make some minor expansions to the roads that are still intact from the sixties, but that is about it.

This should include the caveat: with today's state of the art. If scientists discovered a way to vaporize rock efficiently enough that you could build an 8 lane tunnel for $100 million a mile, that would obviously change things.

[Bobby5280]

For the time being the United States doesn't appear to have a hope at building tunnels for anything less than budget-busting extreme costs. The 2nd Avenue Subway project in Manhattan is a good example of how much time and cost can be involved.

Deep bore tunnels have been considered and then rejected on previous highway expansion projects in Dallas. The LBJ Freeway express lanes were once considered to be built as deep bore tunnels. It was cheaper to dig the express lanes into a trench and build the free lanes above in a sort of cantilever style. Any new lanes for North Central Expressway would probably have to be built as deep bore tunnels since there is very little if any spare room to expand horizontally. The costs of building those tunnels kills the plans.