Are extruded or increment signs better?

Started by tolbs17, December 27, 2021, 03:07:52 PM

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Which type of signs do you prefer?

Extruded
7 (21.2%)
Increment
13 (39.4%)
Don't care
13 (39.4%)

Total Members Voted: 33

hbelkins

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 06, 2022, 01:35:24 PM
Look at the backs of them–it would appear they put another layer of panels over an older rounded-corner incremental sign.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8504338,-82.5275154,3a,19.8y,330.26h,112t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEqPaPxQv1f85C0F-4ajeXA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

They did. North Carolina originally signed US 23 to exit here and use the old alignment. The US 23A designation was given to the old road later.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.


SkyPesos

What's the difference between the two types? I can't tell from the examples in the op.

tolbs17

Quote from: SkyPesos on February 06, 2022, 07:56:08 PM
What's the difference between the two types? I can't tell from the examples in the op.
Extruded are all square. Incremental are rounded.

tolbs17

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 28, 2013, 03:14:28 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on February 17, 2011, 04:50:27 PMHere is a rough list of what the states I've been to generally use:

Alabama:  incremental (corners not rounded)
Arkansas:  newer signs are extruded, older signs are incremental (corners not rounded)
Colorado:  extruded
Florida:  incremental (corners rounded), but IIRC the blue service signs are extruded
Georgia:  extruded, but I've seen newer exit gore signs that were flat panel with rounded corners
Illinois:  extruded
Indiana:  extruded
Kentucky:  extruded
Louisiana:  extruded
Maryland:  extruded
Massachusetts:  extruded
Michigan:  extruded
Mississippi:  mostly extruded, but I've also seen this strange combination of extruded and flat panel on older signs
Missouri:  extruded, but I believe they've used flat panels (rounded corners) on their exit gore signs in the past
Nevada:  extruded
New Hampshire:  extruded
New Jersey:  extruded, but NJ Turnpike used to use incremental
New York:  incremental (corners rounded)
North Carolina:  incremental (corners rounded)
Ohio:  extruded
Pennsylvania:  extruded
South Carolina:  extruded
Tennessee:  extruded
Texas:  extruded
Virginia:  incremental (corners rounded)
West Virginia:  extruded

Feel free to add to this list, correct it, or knock me upside the head for spoiling this thread  :pan:

To add (based on my observations):
Connecticut: extruded (at least for current BGS')
Delaware: extruded (although DelDOT used to use incremental w/rounded corners)
Maine: extruded
Oregon: extruded
Rhode Island: extruded
Found this from another thread and I thought I would put it here. Virginia does not actively use incremental signs anymore.  New installations have been extruded for the most part.

Scott5114

Quote from: SkyPesos on February 06, 2022, 07:56:08 PM
What's the difference between the two types? I can't tell from the examples in the op.

An extruded aluminum sign is made of multiple long, horizontal panels with stiffening flanges behind them. Seen edge-on, the panels are often in the shape of a squared-off C or E that is extruded (extended) in the z-axis away from the viewer. (Imagine you're looking down a paper towel tube–this would be an example of an extruded O shape.) Several of these panels are then stacked upon each other vertically. These signs are most easily identified by the presence of the stiffening flanges behind the sign face and evenly-spaced seams running the width of the sign.

Because the sign geometry extends in all three dimensions, it is not practical to produce extruded panels with rounded shapes, as this would entail cutting into the stiffening flanges. As a result, extruded signs will normally have a rounded border but the actual panel will be squared-off, with the area beyond the border usually being the same color as the background color of the sign (e.g. green).

Here is an example of an extruded sign from Kansas:


Incremental panels are made of simple aluminum panels, the same kind you might find used to make a speed limit sign, but made as large as practical. Several of these are placed edge-to-edge to form a sign panel. These signs require some sort of stiffening latticework behind them to keep them all attached and straight. However, because on incremental signs, stiffening is provided as part of the mounting hardware rather than as an integral part of the sign, the corners can be rounded off the same as any conventional-road sign.

(Contrary to Tolbert's assertion, this is not always the case; there is no reason that an incremental sign must always be rounded. However, if a freeway guide sign bears rounded corners, it does mean it must be an incremental-panel sign.)
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

SkyPesos

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 06, 2022, 09:58:27 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 06, 2022, 07:56:08 PM
What's the difference between the two types? I can't tell from the examples in the op.

An extruded aluminum sign is made of multiple long, horizontal panels with stiffening flanges behind them. Seen edge-on, the panels are often in the shape of a squared-off C or E that is extruded (extended) in the z-axis away from the viewer. (Imagine you're looking down a paper towel tube–this would be an example of an extruded O shape.) Several of these panels are then stacked upon each other vertically. These signs are most easily identified by the presence of the stiffening flanges behind the sign face and evenly-spaced seams running the width of the sign.

Because the sign geometry extends in all three dimensions, it is not practical to produce extruded panels with rounded shapes, as this would entail cutting into the stiffening flanges. As a result, extruded signs will normally have a rounded border but the actual panel will be squared-off, with the area beyond the border usually being the same color as the background color of the sign (e.g. green).

Here is an example of an extruded sign from Kansas:
[img snipped]

Incremental panels are made of simple aluminum panels, the same kind you might find used to make a speed limit sign, but made as large as practical. Several of these are placed edge-to-edge to form a sign panel. These signs require some sort of stiffening latticework behind them to keep them all attached and straight. However, because on incremental signs, stiffening is provided as part of the mounting hardware rather than as an integral part of the sign, the corners can be rounded off the same as any conventional-road sign.

(Contrary to Tolbert's assertion, this is not always the case; there is no reason that an incremental sign must always be rounded. However, if a freeway guide sign bears rounded corners, it does mean it must be an incremental-panel sign.)
Thanks, I see a difference now. Just did some searching on GSV and noticed a bunch of white dots on New York's BGS (guessing it's for mounting), which I think it means that it's an incremental BGS. Meanwhile, Ohio and neighboring states all have horizontal stripes on their signs, which is extruded from your definition.

As for which I prefer, probably extruded, as I'm more used to it. Though in reality, I don't think it matters.

US 89

#31
I think the better test is to look at the back of the signs.

Extruded: GA, TN, OH (edit: apparently maybe not)

Increment: NY, NC, UT

Notice how the Utah sign uses the increment panel method without rounded corners. This is pretty common in several states - in addition to Utah I know CO, NV, and I think at least a couple others do it that way.

J N Winkler

Quote from: SkyPesos on February 06, 2022, 10:11:26 PMThanks, I see a difference now. Just did some searching on GSV and noticed a bunch of white dots on New York's BGS (guessing it's for mounting), which I think it means that it's an incremental BGS. Meanwhile, Ohio and neighboring states all have horizontal stripes on their signs, which is extruded from your definition.

Yes and no--Ohio DOT uses both.  There are separate pay items for extruded panel and what the agency calls "extrusheet," which is a type of increment panel with adjacent sheets joined to each other horizontally rather than vertically.  We have a fairly old thread with photos of a damaged extrusheet sign that shows how it is put together.

Agencies such as Kansas DOT that now use extruded panel almost exclusively have in the past used increment panel.  The stiffening used on the back can make it difficult to tell the difference between the two, though in this case (and for Kansas signs in general) it is easy to tell from the front.

These links go to StreetView imagery showing front and back of the exit direction sign for Exit 13 on I-235 northbound in Wichita.  The first two show the current sign, which is extruded with direct-applied copy and was installed shortly after 2013.  The latter two show the previous sign, which was increment panel with raised demountable copy and was installed around 1992.

Front, January 2022

Back, January 2022

Front, May 2012

Back, July 2012

As you can see, it's hard to tell just by looking at the back.  Virginia, North Carolina, New York, Minnesota, etc. are easier because they use bracing and framing systems that are visually easy to distinguish from extrusion flanges.

I also think it's important to realize that in terms of sign substrate types, it is not a binary choice between extruded and increment panel.  Wyoming DOT, for example, still uses plywood, though I think TxDOT (another big plywood user, especially in the Panhandle) may have phased it out.  Caltrans is a big user of laminated panel, which is basically a honeycomb of cells of rolled-up paper sandwiched between two sheets of thin aluminum.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

roadfro

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 06, 2022, 09:06:15 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 28, 2013, 03:14:28 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on February 17, 2011, 04:50:27 PMHere is a rough list of what the states I've been to generally use:
(...)
Nevada:  extruded
(...)
Feel free to add to this list, correct it, or knock me upside the head for spoiling this thread  :pan:

To add (based on my observations):
(...)
Found this from another thread and I thought I would put it here. Virginia does not actively use incremental signs anymore.  New installations have been extruded for the most part.

Not sure what this person saw, but I have never seen an extruded sign in Nevada. NDOT uses increment panels; when overhead, these are attached to a rigid frame.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

tolbs17

Quote from: roadfro on February 08, 2022, 11:00:57 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 06, 2022, 09:06:15 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 28, 2013, 03:14:28 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on February 17, 2011, 04:50:27 PMHere is a rough list of what the states I've been to generally use:
(...)
Nevada:  extruded
(...)
Feel free to add to this list, correct it, or knock me upside the head for spoiling this thread  :pan:

To add (based on my observations):
(...)
Found this from another thread and I thought I would put it here. Virginia does not actively use incremental signs anymore.  New installations have been extruded for the most part.

Not sure what this person saw, but I have never seen an extruded sign in Nevada. NDOT uses increment panels; when overhead, these are attached to a rigid frame.
Same. Also never seen an extruded sign on the NJ turnpike or any other toll roads there.

SignBridge

I've always preferred incremental, flat-panel signs. Partly because that's what my state uses and I'm used to them. Also because they look better with their usually rounded corners.

With extruded signs you can often see those horizontal lines through the sheeting which I think looks crude compared to flat-panel signs.

tolbs17

Quote from: SignBridge on February 14, 2022, 08:16:22 PM
I've always preferred incremental, flat-panel signs. Partly because that's what my state uses and I'm used to them. Also because they look better with their usually rounded corners.

With extruded signs you can often see those horizontal lines through the sheeting which I think looks crude compared to flat-panel signs.
True but most states use extruded. Incremental is nicer but I feel like extruded is more favored by most states.

tolbs17

And with that weigh station sign being extruded, don't tell me that NCDOT is moving to the extruded panel signs. I'd hate for that to happen. I also don't know where in Statesville it's gonna go.

I feel like this could be a construction company that lives in a state where they use extruded signs all over there.

Weigh station signs here have been all incremental so this is definitely rare of why they are doing this. Unless we are trying to follow Virginia... but who knows.

Another image: https://goo.gl/maps/hWRmKAjVFZXGP6R58

tolbs17

Gonna try to do all 50 states that have either extruded or incremental panel signs:

12 states use incremental panel signs with only 3 of them round the corners, while 38 use extruded.


Alabama: Incremental (corners not rounded)
Alaska: Incremental
Arizona: Extruded
Arkansas: Extruded
California: Incremental (corners not rounded)
Colorado: Incremental (corners not rounded)
Connecticut: Extruded
District of Columbia: Extruded
Delaware: Extruded
Florida: Incremental
Georgia: Extruded
Hawaii: Extruded
Idaho: Extruded
Illinois: Extruded
Indiana: Extruded
Iowa: Extruded
Kansas: Extruded
Kentucky: Extruded
Louisiana: Extruded
Maine: Extruded
Maryland: Extruded
Massachusetts: Extruded
Michigan: Extruded
Minnesota: Extruded
Mississippi: Extruded
Missouri: Extruded
Montana: Incremental (corners not rounded)
Nebraska: Extruded
Nevada: Incremental (corners not rounded)
New Hampshire: Extruded
New Jersey: Extruded, incremental on toll highways
New Mexico: Extruded
New York: Incremental
North Carolina: Incremental
North Dakota: Extruded
Ohio: Extruded
Oklahoma: Extruded
Oregon: Extruded
Pennsylvania: Extruded
Rhode Island: Extruded
South Carolina: Extruded
South Dakota: Extruded
Tennessee: Extruded
Texas: Extruded
Utah: Incremental (corners not rounded)
Vermont: Extruded
Virginia: Extruded, used to be incremental on older signs
Washington: Incremental (corners not rounded)
West Virginia: Extruded
Wisconsin: Extruded
Wyoming: Incremental (corners not rounded)



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