It's that time of year again where someone asks "Who is working Thanksgiving Day?" Lets see here, we have the Original (2013) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=10941.0), II (2014) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14048.0), III (2015) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=16895.0), IV (2016) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19145.0), V (2017) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21620.0), VI (2018) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=23915.0), VII (2019) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=26004.0), Coronavirus (2020) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28012.0), and IX (2021) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30596.0). It was created, once upon a time, because people were complaining that "the retailers were open and making the retail workers WORK", not realizing that other people were working as well during the United States Thanksgiving holiday. Plus, we have the following sports (All Times Eastern):
- 12:30 PM - NFL on CBS: Buffalo Bills at Detroit Lions
- 4:30 PM - NFL on FOX: NY Giants at Dallas Cowboys
- 7:00 PM - NHL on NHL NET: Buffalo Sabres at Montreal Canadiens
- 8:20 PM - NFL on NBC: New England Patriots at Minnesota Vikings
- 10:30 PM - NFL on ESPN+: New York Rangers at Los Angeles Kings
- 5 NCAA Mens Basketball Games
- 4 NCAA Womens Basketball Games
- 4 World Cup Games in Quatar including a 2:00 PM Game on FOX
- No NBA Games
And, next year, there will be a FRIDAY NFL game on Amazon. Maybe then, the Jacksonville Jaguars can play on Thanksgiving.
Not working.
My wife is a respiratory therapist at a hospital, so working on any Holiday is a possibility, but she's part-time, and as such she's allowed to determine her own availability, so she won't be working.
As a Federal employee I will be off as well, though the day after is not a holiday so I have to use a vacation day to be off that day.
I work on a Canadian schedule, so I had Canadian Thanksgiving off last month and this week is nothing special.
I'm a team lead for a small yet very specialized technical support team that works daylight hours from 8 AM-8 PM Eastern Time and on a On-Call basis from 8 PM-8 AM Eastern. Because of contractual obligations, we can't go on-call during daytime during holidays, but have to have a single person staffed. At least I'm the team lead that is willing to step forward and work Thanksgiving morning from 8 AM-2 PM, and again the following Sunday from 8 AM-2 PM. And, my Black Friday shopping is limited to components to build a new computer. That can be done online.
Oh, it gets worse. I intentionally scheduled Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, New Years Eve, and New Years Day to be "double shifts", meaning that instead of working six hours, you work twelve hours. Guess who is taking his own medicine and working Christmas Day and New Years Day so that the rest of the team he manages can "enjoy" the day with the family?
I've never worked on Thanksgiving.
I don't work on Thanksgiving.
I'm not working Thanksgiving.
I have both Thursday and Friday off.
I work at a Federal agency, so I have that day off as a holiday.
Not working on Thanksgiving. Will probably be let out early on Wednesday. Friday I work from hone; the financial markets close early and will probably close early then too.
When I was young, I worked a string of 9 out of 10 consecutive Thanksgivings. The one I missed was when my mom died and I had to fly back from Spain on a military transport. I'm retired now and haven't worked a Thanksgiving after 1987 except when I deployed to Iraq in 2008. But after working so many, Thanksgiving means Football more than anything else. I used to prefer working Black Friday in my office because it was so empty I got twice the work done compared to a normal day.
Not working on Thanksgiving.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on November 19, 2022, 09:29:42 AM
I work on a Canadian schedule, so I had Canadian Thanksgiving off last month and this week is nothing special.
Same here.
I'm "sorta" working–I work remotely as a contractor so I can't be compelled to appear at any given day or time. However, Thursday is usually the day we put in our weekly order from our vendor and Thanksgiving is no exception (in fact, it's the last day we can get orders in and have them delivered to our customers by Christmas). My duties are only tangentially involved in that part of the business, though, so I may pop online for a bit before or after dinner to provide an extra set of hands, as it were, if it's needed. But it's not what I'd consider "working" Thanksgiving the way I was forced to do when I was a casino floor attendant.
I volunteered to work half a shift. Visas ain't free.
Only if there is an emergency and I get pressed into duty.
I am. I wouldn't do anything out of the ordinary before ~1 PM anyways, so might as well work in the morning and take the time and a half.
Nope. I might have to work a partial Wednesday depending on what didn't get done Mon/Tues, but otherwise I'm clear until Monday.
Now that I think of it, throughout my career I never worked Thanksgiving day. The Friday or Saturday after, on rare occassions.
I'm not working on Thanksgiving, except doing the dishes at home. But then, I'm retired so I'm not working any day. :-D
They have a volunteer shift at my job Thanksgiving night, but I will not be doing that. One of my now former coworkers volunteered, but managed to get fired after volunteering.
No, on vacation this week.
I work for a telecom provider. Have worked several over the years. Was scheduled off last year but got called out at 8pm last year for issue.
I work from home on my own schedule. I don't know yet, and may not decide until I clock in that day.
After four editions created by someone outside the USA (me), I see the 10th anniversary special has been opened by the original creator :sombrero:
Now that I finally have a decent job, although part-time (I hope this becomes full-time soon), my answer is of course yes (normal working day in Spain). However I now have coworkers in the USA, so they will have the day off.
Quote from: Takumi on November 19, 2022, 07:48:18 PM
I volunteered to work half a shift. Visas ain't free.
...for everything else, there's Mastercard.
Looking back, I've never worked Thanksgiving since holding a job when I was 15. Been fortunate to only have one job which was open on Thanksgiving, but there were always volunteers.
Closest thing was my wife working a shift at an emergency veterinary clinic in 2000; they had a spread of Thanksgiving goodies so we had a feast in the break room during a quiet work shift (2pm-10pm).
Quote from: DandyDan on November 20, 2022, 07:53:05 AM
They have a volunteer shift at my job Thanksgiving night, but I will not be doing that. One of my now former coworkers volunteered, but managed to get fired after volunteering.
Gotta love ungrateful managers like that.
Like the time I got asked to work 2nd shift on a Wednesday (I normally worked 3rd shift and had Wednesdays off), ran into traffic I wasn't expecting (you know, because I normally didn't come in at that time) and got written up for being late. :rolleyes: That was the last time I agreed to pick up extra shifts.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2022, 05:49:44 PM
Quote from: DandyDan on November 20, 2022, 07:53:05 AM
They have a volunteer shift at my job Thanksgiving night, but I will not be doing that. One of my now former coworkers volunteered, but managed to get fired after volunteering.
Gotta love ungrateful managers like that.
Like the time I got asked to work 2nd shift on a Wednesday (I normally worked 3rd shift and had Wednesdays off), ran into traffic I wasn't expecting (you know, because I normally didn't come in at that time) and got written up for being late. :rolleyes: That was the last time I agreed to pick up extra shifts.
I remember being called in one day, told the manager I could be in *around* 1. I was sitting at the stoplight in front of the store at like 12:59 and he starts blowing up my phone ostensibly to ask where I was. I was not thrilled.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 20, 2022, 07:44:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2022, 05:49:44 PM
Quote from: DandyDan on November 20, 2022, 07:53:05 AM
They have a volunteer shift at my job Thanksgiving night, but I will not be doing that. One of my now former coworkers volunteered, but managed to get fired after volunteering.
Gotta love ungrateful managers like that.
Like the time I got asked to work 2nd shift on a Wednesday (I normally worked 3rd shift and had Wednesdays off), ran into traffic I wasn't expecting (you know, because I normally didn't come in at that time) and got written up for being late. :rolleyes: That was the last time I agreed to pick up extra shifts.
I remember being called in one day, told the manager I could be in *around* 1. I was sitting at the stoplight in front of the store at like 12:59 and he starts blowing up my phone ostensibly to ask where I was. I was not thrilled.
My payroll clerk gets on my case every couple weeks if I don't explain why one of my people is 1-2 minutes late. I've told her about 60 times in the past seven years that I don't care about nominal things like that. Definitely isn't something that is a popular mindset regarding the hourly people where I work.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 20, 2022, 07:44:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2022, 05:49:44 PM
Quote from: DandyDan on November 20, 2022, 07:53:05 AM
They have a volunteer shift at my job Thanksgiving night, but I will not be doing that. One of my now former coworkers volunteered, but managed to get fired after volunteering.
Gotta love ungrateful managers like that.
Like the time I got asked to work 2nd shift on a Wednesday (I normally worked 3rd shift and had Wednesdays off), ran into traffic I wasn't expecting (you know, because I normally didn't come in at that time) and got written up for being late. :rolleyes: That was the last time I agreed to pick up extra shifts.
I remember being called in one day, told the manager I could be in *around* 1. I was sitting at the stoplight in front of the store at like 12:59 and he starts blowing up my phone ostensibly to ask where I was. I was not thrilled.
From my message above, I lead a very small team that works
extremely hard. I hold them accountable, they hold me accountable, and they are encouraged to be honest. While I will call them on a weekend shift when they are running late, especially a shift which I'm handing off to them, I will wait ten-fifteen minutes. Usually, it involves Murphy. It's when you are running late, don't notify me, and I can't get in touch with you that we have issues.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 20, 2022, 08:13:23 PMMy payroll clerk gets on my case every couple weeks if I don't explain why one of my people is 1-2 minutes late. I've told her about 60 times in the past seven years that I don't care about nominal things like that. Definitely isn't something that is a popular mindset regarding the hourly people where I work.
Sorry, no. If I start going after people for being 75 seconds late, I may lose them when they might have to work late. All I really care about is solving the customer's issues, updating the customer on a timely basis, and resolving cases.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 20, 2022, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 20, 2022, 07:44:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2022, 05:49:44 PM
Quote from: DandyDan on November 20, 2022, 07:53:05 AM
They have a volunteer shift at my job Thanksgiving night, but I will not be doing that. One of my now former coworkers volunteered, but managed to get fired after volunteering.
Gotta love ungrateful managers like that.
Like the time I got asked to work 2nd shift on a Wednesday (I normally worked 3rd shift and had Wednesdays off), ran into traffic I wasn't expecting (you know, because I normally didn't come in at that time) and got written up for being late. :rolleyes: That was the last time I agreed to pick up extra shifts.
I remember being called in one day, told the manager I could be in *around* 1. I was sitting at the stoplight in front of the store at like 12:59 and he starts blowing up my phone ostensibly to ask where I was. I was not thrilled.
My payroll clerk gets on my case every couple weeks if I don't explain why one of my people is 1-2 minutes late. I've told her about 60 times in the past seven years that I don't care about nominal things like that. Definitely isn't something that is a popular mindset regarding the hourly people where I work.
You should ask her what exactly she expects people to get done in that extra 60-120 seconds. That's something I've never been able to get those sorts of people to explain.
For the first time in 11 years, I won't be working on Thanksgiving.
But I am working on my birthday, this Friday, so I'm expecting 48 tributes from each of you.
My company is closed on Thanksgiving and the next day too, so no work for me. Despite working in grocery for '17, '18, and '19, I requested Thanksgiving off and got it off.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2022, 08:47:47 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 20, 2022, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 20, 2022, 07:44:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2022, 05:49:44 PM
Quote from: DandyDan on November 20, 2022, 07:53:05 AM
They have a volunteer shift at my job Thanksgiving night, but I will not be doing that. One of my now former coworkers volunteered, but managed to get fired after volunteering.
Gotta love ungrateful managers like that.
Like the time I got asked to work 2nd shift on a Wednesday (I normally worked 3rd shift and had Wednesdays off), ran into traffic I wasn't expecting (you know, because I normally didn't come in at that time) and got written up for being late. :rolleyes: That was the last time I agreed to pick up extra shifts.
I remember being called in one day, told the manager I could be in *around* 1. I was sitting at the stoplight in front of the store at like 12:59 and he starts blowing up my phone ostensibly to ask where I was. I was not thrilled.
My payroll clerk gets on my case every couple weeks if I don't explain why one of my people is 1-2 minutes late. I've told her about 60 times in the past seven years that I don't care about nominal things like that. Definitely isn't something that is a popular mindset regarding the hourly people where I work.
You should ask her what exactly she expects people to get done in that extra 60-120 seconds. That's something I've never been able to get those sorts of people to explain.
It's a case of "give 'em an inch and they'll take a foot" which has created the HR industry in the first place. Sometimes it's warranted, but mostly it is not. But they love staggering-but-useless statistics such if everyone was two minutes late, it would mean that 7 million hours of National productivity are lost.
I have some nagging coworkers who prefer we always arrive 15 minutes early because the Marines do it that way (last I checked, we aren't acting in that kind of urgency and necessity). Look, if you want to plan on being there early if you have an exceptionally long commute, that's fine. I've found that 5 minutes early is enough or you're waiting around for everyone else who isn't ready.
I think it depends on the industry. If I arrive at my current job two minutes late, it's probably not a huge deal (though I do my best to come early).
When I worked in grocery, I helped managed the front end. When someone showed up 5 minutes late, it meant that I had to wait to send someone on their break. Then when everyone comes back from their breaks late, the problem compounds. Some days, it's not so bad. If we were tight on help, it made things more difficult. It also made me wonder if they were going to show up at all that day.
The office is closed Thursday and Friday. This is the first time I've worked for an employer that is closed on Thanksgiving and Black Friday. When I worked for banks, they were all open on Black Friday, which meant I had to take a PTO day if I didn't want to work that day.
I think that in many cases, overly stringent enforcement of punctuality has more to do with figuring out who to fire or lay off when times are tight. A friend who works for the City of Wichita reports that when the city was having budgetary problems three years ago, being late just five times a year--even by as little as a minute each time--was grounds for starting the termination process.
I did get Thanksgiving off, but only after my boss decided to scream at me and cuss me out over it. I love working retail. Makes me miss the Amazon warehouse.
Quote from: formulanone on November 21, 2022, 10:21:14 AM
I have some nagging coworkers who prefer we always arrive 15 minutes early because the Marines do it that way (last I checked, we aren't acting in that kind of urgency and necessity). Look, if you want to plan on being there early if you have an exceptionally long commute, that's fine. I've found that 5 minutes early is enough or you're waiting around for everyone else who isn't ready.
The company I interned at was like that. The explanation was that they wanted people around in case someone from another shift needed to contact you.
Quote from: formulanone on November 21, 2022, 10:21:14 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 20, 2022, 08:47:47 PM
You should ask her what exactly she expects people to get done in that extra 60-120 seconds. That's something I've never been able to get those sorts of people to explain.
It's a case of "give 'em an inch and they'll take a foot" which has created the HR industry in the first place. Sometimes it's warranted, but mostly it is not. But they love staggering-but-useless statistics such if everyone was two minutes late, it would mean that 7 million hours of National productivity are lost.
The reality is that they probably wouldn't have gotten much done in that timespan anyway, depending on their job.
But, look, if someone has a job that they're supposed to be there 9 - 5, then they're supposed to be there 9 - 5. They're getting paid to be there. If someone wants to be a little late to a friend's party, or fashionably late to a gathering, they can do that. Their friends may be the type where they will all be 30 minutes late. But at the work place, be punctual. Even if the others aren't.
The other side of 'give them an inch'...If they show up at 9:02, there's probably another coworker that will see that, and decide to show up at 9:10. When the boss questions them, they fight back saying you allowed someone else to be late. Yeah, 2 minutes, not 10. But the employee will drag the boss down because one person was allowed to be late, ignoring the main issue of the length of time. So an otherwise lenient and understanding boss now needs to protect their ass, and 9am is 9am.
We had a section in our division that the boss would allow everyone to "take their lunch at the end of the day" (even though they all ate lunch at lunchtime). And they still left 10 minutes early on top of that! Eventually that was cracked down on, and everyone in the section bitched how unfair it was and no one else was told they couldn't do it. Again, they were ignoring the obvious - no one else was doing it. And when someone else did leave an hour early, they complained they were allowed to leave early. Of course, they failed to understand the person leaving early also put in for an hour PTO.
The problem is that because time of day is an arbitrary human construct (there is no concept of "solar 9 am", and even if there was because of time zones, DST, and varying day lengths it wouldn't match up with what we call 9 am anyway), it is subject to measurement error. So if you say "9 am", who determines when that is?
Okay, so the company owns a time clock that we're going to declare be the official time for the company. Except how do you make sure that clock is right? You can sync it to an NTP time server or atomic clock, but unless all of your employees have timepieces that can sync to the same time server, they are bound to be off by a little bit. And even if your employees religiously sync all the timepieces in their house to the time clock, most consumers can't afford a timepiece with the precision required to not drift a few minutes in either direction in the span of a few weeks. Or maybe the batteries die or they lose power, and now everything is flashing 12:00!
And this, of course, assumes the time clock is infallible. We had an issue with the Kronos time clocks at the casino doing really squirrelly stuff for a while. They would jump forward and backward a few minutes at random. I remember one incident where I was dragging my timecard through the reader with the clock displaying 2:28 and then it flashed my clock-in time as 2:33. What? (To their credit, HR did not accept any tardiness reports until they figured out what was wrong with the clock.)
Basically, if you think a ticket for 56 in a 55 is unjust, you are being ideologically inconsistent if you think clocking in at 9:01 is grounds for disciplinary action. It is much fairer for everyone if "9 o'clock" is shorthand for "sometime between 8:55 and 9:05".
So why not clock in early to avoid all these issues altogether? Ah, but see, then you're on the clock longer, and the company is legally obliged to pay you for that time, so now you get in trouble for milking the clock...
Most of this is pretty silly, since the normal complaints about timekeeping involve companies forcing employees to work outside their paid time. Most people are not going to even know what "solar 9am" means or syncing to NTP servers. But, I'll indulge...
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 21, 2022, 07:53:04 PM
The problem is that because time of day is an arbitrary human construct (there is no concept of "solar 9 am", and even if there was because of time zones, DST, and varying day lengths it wouldn't match up with what we call 9 am anyway), it is subject to measurement error. So if you say "9 am", who determines when that is?
What? For nearly every job, none of that matters.
QuoteOkay, so the company owns a time clock that we're going to declare be the official time for the company. Except how do you make sure that clock is right? You can sync it to an NTP time server or atomic clock, but unless all of your employees have timepieces that can sync to the same time server, they are bound to be off by a little bit. And even if your employees religiously sync all the timepieces in their house to the time clock, most consumers can't afford a timepiece with the precision required to not drift a few minutes in either direction in the span of a few weeks. Or maybe the batteries die or they lose power, and now everything is flashing 12:00!
In most any company, the time is dictated by the clock on the wall. If it runs a few minutes ahead or behind your watch, learn to adjust. Of course, now, the time is dictated by the clock on the computer. Again, if it runs a few minutes ahead or behind your watch, learn to adjust.
Quote
And this, of course, assumes the time clock is infallible. We had an issue with the Kronos time clocks at the casino doing really squirrelly stuff for a while. They would jump forward and backward a few minutes at random. I remember one incident where I was dragging my timecard through the reader with the clock displaying 2:28 and then it flashed my clock-in time as 2:33. What? (To their credit, HR did not accept any tardiness reports until they figured out what was wrong with the clock.)
Ok, so minor technical issue that they fixed. That's fine.
QuoteBasically, if you think a ticket for 56 in a 55 is unjust, you are being ideologically inconsistent if you think clocking in at 9:01 is grounds for disciplinary action. It is much fairer for everyone if "9 o'clock" is shorthand for "sometime between 8:55 and 9:05".
Everything you said above invalidates this reasoning. Since you now basically said you get a 5 minute leeway either way, then the clock IS correct. Otherwise, if the clock is 5 minutes off, then what determines when 8:55 to 9:05 really is? Because who knows if the clock is 5 minutes off based on Paragraphs 1, 2, 3 & 4 above.
QuoteSo why not clock in early to avoid all these issues altogether? Ah, but see, then you're on the clock longer, and the company is legally obliged to pay you for that time, so now you get in trouble for milking the clock...
The company is not legally obligated to pay you for that time. Companies are allowed to pay in 15 minute increments, per the Department of Labor. If you clock in at 8:57am, the company is allowed to round up to 9am. And some companies have rules that you can't clock in a certain time prior to your start time, which is legal as well.
Reading all this makes me grateful that my company is flexible about hours. We have "core hours" in the middle of the day that we're expected to be working (9-3), but whether we start at 7 am or leave at 6 pm doesn't really matter to anyone. As long as we get our work done and our 40 hours in, everything's fine.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on November 22, 2022, 09:12:35 AM
Reading all this makes me grateful that my company is flexible about hours. We have "core hours" in the middle of the day that we're expected to be working (9-3), but whether we start at 7 am or leave at 6 pm doesn't really matter to anyone. As long as we get our work done and our 40 hours in, everything's fine.
Same, only I don't even have core hours. In fact, we're traveling to England in a couple of weeks and spending four weeks there, and I plan to work 3 days a week from there (although I plan to stick to Chicago hours or thereabouts).
I once worked for an outfit that instructed you to round off your arrival time to the nearest quarter-hour. This became known as the "seven-minute rule": Arrive up to seven minutes after a quarter-hour (say, 9:07) and your time began to run from the previous quarter-hour (9:00), and in turn leave up to seven minutes before a quarter-hour (say, 5:23) and your time ran up to the next quarter-hour (5:30). That applied to lunch as well. So of course there were people who always timed it so they were always arriving on the :07, :22, :37, or :52 and departing on the :08, :23, :38, or :53, which in effect basically got them paid for a half-hour a day they didn't actually work. Company policy allowed it, of course. I was never that obsessed with it because I just arrived or departed when it was time to do so and I figured the rounding off would sometimes be in my favor, sometimes in theirs, so it would be essentially a wash in the end. I also figured that when it came time for performance reviews and the like, the higher-ups knew which people were abusing the rule's spirit and those people probably had other performance issues anyway.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2022, 10:56:44 AM
I once worked for an outfit that instructed you to round off your arrival time to the nearest quarter-hour. This became known as the "seven-minute rule": Arrive up to seven minutes after a quarter-hour (say, 9:07) and your time began to run from the previous quarter-hour (9:00), and in turn leave up to seven minutes before a quarter-hour (say, 5:23) and your time ran up to the next quarter-hour (5:30). That applied to lunch as well. So of course there were people who always timed it so they were always arriving on the :07, :22, :37, or :52 and departing on the :08, :23, :38, or :53, which in effect basically got them paid for a half-hour a day they didn't actually work. Company policy allowed it, of course. I was never that obsessed with it because I just arrived or departed when it was time to do so and I figured the rounding off would sometimes be in my favor, sometimes in theirs, so it would be essentially a wash in the end. I also figured that when it came time for performance reviews and the like, the higher-ups knew which people were abusing the rule's spirit and those people probably had other performance issues anyway.
Our timekeeping is also by the quarter hour. When I took over one particular department, they had a department rule that you could be up to 4 minutes, 59 seconds late and still be considered on time. When asked if I would keep that rule, I clearly stated that it could be kept only if it weren't abused. I noticed one particular employee walking in about 4 minutes late every day. I started checking the parking lot and noticed that she regularly arrived and parked by 5 minutes before her start time and deliberately sat in her car until she'd be 4 minutes late.
That policy want away that day. If they were a minute or more late they were off the clock until 15 after.
^ @hoo I worked at a company like that, but they kept track of how many times you were taking advantage of the 7 minutes. I don't know what the policy was, because I was salary and it didn't apply to me. But your boss would talk to you if you had too many, and I suppose it could eventually be grounds for dismissal.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:00:39 AM
Our timekeeping is also by the quarter hour. When I took over one particular department, they had a department rule that you could be up to 4 minutes, 59 seconds late and still be considered on time. When asked if I would keep that rule, I clearly stated that it could be kept only if it weren't abused. I noticed one particular employee walking in about 4 minutes late every day. I started checking the parking lot and noticed that she regularly arrived and parked by 5 minutes before her start time and deliberately sat in her car until she'd be 4 minutes late.
That policy want away that day. If they were a minute or more late they were off the clock until 15 after.
I get what you're saying here, but it also makes no sense to me to keep track of arrival times down to the minute even as overall timekeeping is done by the quarter-hour, rendering the exact minute of arrival irrelevant. A time clock to clock in and out (which I thought most companies had, but maybe not) would solve this issue and pretty much all similar issues.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 21, 2022, 10:42:28 PM
Most of this is pretty silly, since the normal complaints about timekeeping involve companies forcing employees to work outside their paid time. Most people are not going to even know what "solar 9am" means or syncing to NTP servers. But, I'll indulge...
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 21, 2022, 07:53:04 PM
The problem is that because time of day is an arbitrary human construct (there is no concept of "solar 9 am", and even if there was because of time zones, DST, and varying day lengths it wouldn't match up with what we call 9 am anyway), it is subject to measurement error. So if you say "9 am", who determines when that is?
What? For nearly every job, none of that matters.
QuoteOkay, so the company owns a time clock that we're going to declare be the official time for the company. Except how do you make sure that clock is right? You can sync it to an NTP time server or atomic clock, but unless all of your employees have timepieces that can sync to the same time server, they are bound to be off by a little bit. And even if your employees religiously sync all the timepieces in their house to the time clock, most consumers can't afford a timepiece with the precision required to not drift a few minutes in either direction in the span of a few weeks. Or maybe the batteries die or they lose power, and now everything is flashing 12:00!
In most any company, the time is dictated by the clock on the wall. If it runs a few minutes ahead or behind your watch, learn to adjust. Of course, now, the time is dictated by the clock on the computer. Again, if it runs a few minutes ahead or behind your watch, learn to adjust.
Quote
And this, of course, assumes the time clock is infallible. We had an issue with the Kronos time clocks at the casino doing really squirrelly stuff for a while. They would jump forward and backward a few minutes at random. I remember one incident where I was dragging my timecard through the reader with the clock displaying 2:28 and then it flashed my clock-in time as 2:33. What? (To their credit, HR did not accept any tardiness reports until they figured out what was wrong with the clock.)
Ok, so minor technical issue that they fixed. That's fine.
QuoteBasically, if you think a ticket for 56 in a 55 is unjust, you are being ideologically inconsistent if you think clocking in at 9:01 is grounds for disciplinary action. It is much fairer for everyone if "9 o'clock" is shorthand for "sometime between 8:55 and 9:05".
Everything you said above invalidates this reasoning. Since you now basically said you get a 5 minute leeway either way, then the clock IS correct. Otherwise, if the clock is 5 minutes off, then what determines when 8:55 to 9:05 really is? Because who knows if the clock is 5 minutes off based on Paragraphs 1, 2, 3 & 4 above.
QuoteSo why not clock in early to avoid all these issues altogether? Ah, but see, then you're on the clock longer, and the company is legally obliged to pay you for that time, so now you get in trouble for milking the clock...
The company is not legally obligated to pay you for that time. Companies are allowed to pay in 15 minute increments, per the Department of Labor. If you clock in at 8:57am, the company is allowed to round up to 9am. And some companies have rules that you can't clock in a certain time prior to your start time, which is legal as well.
If your company is run by a bunch of dicks who will get you in trouble for clocking in at 9:01 instead of 9:00 and also get you in trouble if you clock in before 9:00, then all of that applies.
Guess what kind of company the last one I worked for was. (And yeah, they actually calculated pay in 15-minute increments, so it made no fucking sense, either.)
Quote from: webny99 on November 22, 2022, 11:07:24 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:00:39 AM
Our timekeeping is also by the quarter hour. When I took over one particular department, they had a department rule that you could be up to 4 minutes, 59 seconds late and still be considered on time. When asked if I would keep that rule, I clearly stated that it could be kept only if it weren't abused. I noticed one particular employee walking in about 4 minutes late every day. I started checking the parking lot and noticed that she regularly arrived and parked by 5 minutes before her start time and deliberately sat in her car until she'd be 4 minutes late.
That policy want away that day. If they were a minute or more late they were off the clock until 15 after.
I get what you're saying here, but it also makes no sense to me to keep track of arrival times down to the minute even as overall timekeeping is done by the quarter-hour, rendering the exact minute of arrival irrelevant. A time clock to clock in and out (which I thought most companies had, but maybe not) would solve this issue and pretty much all similar issues.
The union contributed to this environment as well. They insisted that if you kept an employee a minute past their end time, they were entitled to 15 minutes of overtime pay. I offered them the option of either being flexible at both ends of the shift or neither end and they chose the latter.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: webny99 on November 22, 2022, 11:07:24 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:00:39 AM
Our timekeeping is also by the quarter hour. When I took over one particular department, they had a department rule that you could be up to 4 minutes, 59 seconds late and still be considered on time. When asked if I would keep that rule, I clearly stated that it could be kept only if it weren't abused. I noticed one particular employee walking in about 4 minutes late every day. I started checking the parking lot and noticed that she regularly arrived and parked by 5 minutes before her start time and deliberately sat in her car until she'd be 4 minutes late.
That policy want away that day. If they were a minute or more late they were off the clock until 15 after.
I get what you're saying here, but it also makes no sense to me to keep track of arrival times down to the minute even as overall timekeeping is done by the quarter-hour, rendering the exact minute of arrival irrelevant. A time clock to clock in and out (which I thought most companies had, but maybe not) would solve this issue and pretty much all similar issues.
The union contributed to this environment as well. They insisted that if you kept an employee a minute past their end time, they were entitled to 15 minutes of overtime pay. I offered them the option of either being flexible at both ends of the shift or neither end and they chose the latter.
They didn't "contribute" by ensuring their members were compensated for the work they did. "If you work a minute past your end time, you're entitled to 15 minutes of overtime pay" was a deterrent for the employer, just like threatening non-union employees with termination for showing up one minute later is a deterrent for the employees.
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 11:27:25 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: webny99 on November 22, 2022, 11:07:24 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:00:39 AM
Our timekeeping is also by the quarter hour. When I took over one particular department, they had a department rule that you could be up to 4 minutes, 59 seconds late and still be considered on time. When asked if I would keep that rule, I clearly stated that it could be kept only if it weren't abused. I noticed one particular employee walking in about 4 minutes late every day. I started checking the parking lot and noticed that she regularly arrived and parked by 5 minutes before her start time and deliberately sat in her car until she'd be 4 minutes late.
That policy want away that day. If they were a minute or more late they were off the clock until 15 after.
I get what you're saying here, but it also makes no sense to me to keep track of arrival times down to the minute even as overall timekeeping is done by the quarter-hour, rendering the exact minute of arrival irrelevant. A time clock to clock in and out (which I thought most companies had, but maybe not) would solve this issue and pretty much all similar issues.
The union contributed to this environment as well. They insisted that if you kept an employee a minute past their end time, they were entitled to 15 minutes of overtime pay. I offered them the option of either being flexible at both ends of the shift or neither end and they chose the latter.
They didn't "contribute" by ensuring their members were compensated for the work they did. "If you work a minute past your end time, you're entitled to 15 minutes of overtime pay" was a deterrent for the employer, just like threatening non-union employees with termination for showing up one minute later is a deterrent for the employees.
To be clear, employees weren't threatened with termination for being one minute late. They were just counted as starting their shift 15 minutes late with the option of taking 15 minutes of PTO or staying 15 minutes late at the end of the day. Disciplinary action was never a part of it.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:34:11 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 11:27:25 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: webny99 on November 22, 2022, 11:07:24 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:00:39 AM
Our timekeeping is also by the quarter hour. When I took over one particular department, they had a department rule that you could be up to 4 minutes, 59 seconds late and still be considered on time. When asked if I would keep that rule, I clearly stated that it could be kept only if it weren't abused. I noticed one particular employee walking in about 4 minutes late every day. I started checking the parking lot and noticed that she regularly arrived and parked by 5 minutes before her start time and deliberately sat in her car until she'd be 4 minutes late.
That policy want away that day. If they were a minute or more late they were off the clock until 15 after.
I get what you're saying here, but it also makes no sense to me to keep track of arrival times down to the minute even as overall timekeeping is done by the quarter-hour, rendering the exact minute of arrival irrelevant. A time clock to clock in and out (which I thought most companies had, but maybe not) would solve this issue and pretty much all similar issues.
The union contributed to this environment as well. They insisted that if you kept an employee a minute past their end time, they were entitled to 15 minutes of overtime pay. I offered them the option of either being flexible at both ends of the shift or neither end and they chose the latter.
They didn't "contribute" by ensuring their members were compensated for the work they did. "If you work a minute past your end time, you're entitled to 15 minutes of overtime pay" was a deterrent for the employer, just like threatening non-union employees with termination for showing up one minute later is a deterrent for the employees.
To be clear, employees weren't threatened with termination for being one minute late. They were just counted as starting their shift 15 minutes late with the option of taking 15 minutes of PTO or staying 15 minutes late at the end of the day. Disciplinary action was never a part of it.
Right, I'm just pointing out what happens in non-union workplaces.
I'm glad my work had things to worry about that were more significant than an employee clocking in at 9:02 when they should have been there are 9:00.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:34:11 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 11:27:25 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: webny99 on November 22, 2022, 11:07:24 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:00:39 AM
Our timekeeping is also by the quarter hour. When I took over one particular department, they had a department rule that you could be up to 4 minutes, 59 seconds late and still be considered on time. When asked if I would keep that rule, I clearly stated that it could be kept only if it weren't abused. I noticed one particular employee walking in about 4 minutes late every day. I started checking the parking lot and noticed that she regularly arrived and parked by 5 minutes before her start time and deliberately sat in her car until she'd be 4 minutes late.
That policy want away that day. If they were a minute or more late they were off the clock until 15 after.
I get what you're saying here, but it also makes no sense to me to keep track of arrival times down to the minute even as overall timekeeping is done by the quarter-hour, rendering the exact minute of arrival irrelevant. A time clock to clock in and out (which I thought most companies had, but maybe not) would solve this issue and pretty much all similar issues.
The union contributed to this environment as well. They insisted that if you kept an employee a minute past their end time, they were entitled to 15 minutes of overtime pay. I offered them the option of either being flexible at both ends of the shift or neither end and they chose the latter.
They didn't "contribute" by ensuring their members were compensated for the work they did. "If you work a minute past your end time, you're entitled to 15 minutes of overtime pay" was a deterrent for the employer, just like threatening non-union employees with termination for showing up one minute later is a deterrent for the employees.
To be clear, employees weren't threatened with termination for being one minute late. They were just counted as starting their shift 15 minutes late with the option of taking 15 minutes of PTO or staying 15 minutes late at the end of the day. Disciplinary action was never a part of it.
Eesh. Horrible workplace.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:34:11 AM
To be clear, employees weren't threatened with termination for being one minute late. They were just counted as starting their shift 15 minutes late with the option of taking 15 minutes of PTO or staying 15 minutes late at the end of the day. Disciplinary action was never a part of it.
That's the kind of place I don't want to patronize.
I've had to wait to clock in at one workplace with an electronic timeclock, and if 10 people were trying to clock in at 7:30am, at least one or two were 1 minute late by the time each 5-10 second punch was accepted.
Quote from: formulanone on November 22, 2022, 12:50:51 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:34:11 AM
To be clear, employees weren't threatened with termination for being one minute late. They were just counted as starting their shift 15 minutes late with the option of taking 15 minutes of PTO or staying 15 minutes late at the end of the day. Disciplinary action was never a part of it.
That's the kind of place I don't want to patronize.
I've had to wait to clock in at one workplace with an electronic timeclock, and if 10 people were trying to clock in at 7:30am, at least one or two were 1 minute late by the time each 5-10 second punch was accepted.
So, to give a bit more background. This is one department at my particular workplace. I got moved there because there had been lots of problems. The union got punching time clocks eliminated a long time ago specifically for the reason you noted.
The original operating procedure was that if you showed up between 6:53-7:07 you were counted as starting at 7:00, 7:08-7:22 as starting at 7:15, etc. Then employees decided they wanted to push it by arguing that they if they showed up at 7:08 but weren't counted as starting until 7:15 that they were working for free, essentially saying that they should get credit for up to 7 minutes but not be on the hook for up to 7 on the other end. This is the same department where an employee filed a grievance because a call "with a customer" ran over and shortened her lunch, only to end up with phone records showing that the call was to her sister. It's a department that literally doesn't want to work and files grievances over every little thing. They were treated like they were children because they were behaving like children.
I've managed five other departments before and since that one, and in each of those these issues never came up. People were late so infrequently that nobody needed to do anything about it. The problem department ended up getting eliminated shortly after I left and the employees and their tasks absorbed into other departments. Half the employees retired/resigned rather than move to a department where the majority of the workers didn't want any part of their shenanigans.
Yeah, I am sticking by deeming it a horrible workplace.
Quote from: Rothman on November 22, 2022, 01:32:04 PM
Yeah, I am sticking by deeming it a horrible workplace.
Agreed. If I had a nickel for every time an employer tried to screw me out of the pay I was entitled to under labor laws, I could retire.
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 01:43:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 22, 2022, 01:32:04 PM
Yeah, I am sticking by deeming it a horrible workplace.
Agreed. If I had a nickel for every time an employer tried to screw me out of the pay I was entitled to under labor laws, I could retire.
You're entitled to your opinion, but as a factual matter at no point was anybody trying to screw anybody out of anything they were entitled to. Nobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
Seems that I won't be working on Black Friday for the first time in 22 years of being in retail security. My wife came down with a case of COVID and passed it along to me over the weekend. Since I work for a federal body, we still follow CDC guidance which means I'm out until at minimum Saturday.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 02:07:58 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 01:43:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 22, 2022, 01:32:04 PM
Yeah, I am sticking by deeming it a horrible workplace.
Agreed. If I had a nickel for every time an employer tried to screw me out of the pay I was entitled to under labor laws, I could retire.
You're entitled to your opinion, but as a factual matter at no point was anybody trying to screw anybody out of anything they were entitled to. Nobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
Yeah, but the whole tone that's coming across from your own recounting is extremely negative and skeptically one-sided.
Makes me feel a whole lot better about how things are going in my own workplace.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 02:07:58 PMNobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
I worked for several law firms where I, as a paralegal, was entitled to a minimum of X hours of overtime if I was asked to work on a weekend day.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:34:11 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 11:27:25 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: webny99 on November 22, 2022, 11:07:24 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 11:00:39 AM
Our timekeeping is also by the quarter hour. When I took over one particular department, they had a department rule that you could be up to 4 minutes, 59 seconds late and still be considered on time. When asked if I would keep that rule, I clearly stated that it could be kept only if it weren't abused. I noticed one particular employee walking in about 4 minutes late every day. I started checking the parking lot and noticed that she regularly arrived and parked by 5 minutes before her start time and deliberately sat in her car until she'd be 4 minutes late.
That policy want away that day. If they were a minute or more late they were off the clock until 15 after.
I get what you're saying here, but it also makes no sense to me to keep track of arrival times down to the minute even as overall timekeeping is done by the quarter-hour, rendering the exact minute of arrival irrelevant. A time clock to clock in and out (which I thought most companies had, but maybe not) would solve this issue and pretty much all similar issues.
The union contributed to this environment as well. They insisted that if you kept an employee a minute past their end time, they were entitled to 15 minutes of overtime pay. I offered them the option of either being flexible at both ends of the shift or neither end and they chose the latter.
They didn't "contribute" by ensuring their members were compensated for the work they did. "If you work a minute past your end time, you're entitled to 15 minutes of overtime pay" was a deterrent for the employer, just like threatening non-union employees with termination for showing up one minute later is a deterrent for the employees.
To be clear, employees weren't threatened with termination for being one minute late. They were just counted as starting their shift 15 minutes late with the option of taking 15 minutes of PTO or staying 15 minutes late at the end of the day. Disciplinary action was never a part of it.
By their own definition, the company's policy was disciplinary.
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 02:07:58 PMNobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
I worked for several law firms where I, as a paralegal, was entitled to a minimum of X hours of overtime if I was asked to work on a weekend day.
We have that policy as well, but this is for regular time. Nobody is entitled to work fewer than 8 hours and get paid for 8 hours.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 06:12:33 PMNobody is entitled to work fewer than 8 hours and get paid for 8 hours.
Exempt employees are.
Thursday is a corporate holiday, so no employees are working. It's possible that our field techs will be working in one or more regions, but that doesn't really affect us in the office.
Most office staff also take Friday off. However, Friday of every week is a cutoff for me to approve remittance to our company from Cox Communications. That is to say, if I don't approve it by midday on Friday, then it doesn't pay out to us that week. If I were to take both Thursday and Friday off with nobody to cover me, then payment for two days' worth of work would be delayed a week. Therefore, nobody puts up a fight when I ask to come in for a half-day and audit those two days' remittance. But I'm pretty much on my own and can leave whenever I want. So I'll probably go in from around 8:00 to noon or whatever.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 02:07:58 PM
Nobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
I worked for several law firms where I, as a paralegal, was entitled to a minimum of X hours of overtime if I was asked to work on a weekend day.
We have that policy as well, but this is for regular time. Nobody is entitled to work fewer than 8 hours and get paid for 8 hours.
This, of course, depends on the individual company policies. For example, at my work, if there's a long power or internet outage and we eventually get sent home early, they'll generally pay us for the full day because it wasn't our fault.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 22, 2022, 02:17:33 PM
Seems that I won't be working on Black Friday for the first time in 22 years of being in retail security. My wife came down with a case of COVID and passed it along to me over the weekend. Since I work for a federal body, we still follow CDC guidance which means I'm out until at minimum Saturday.
Best wishes for a mild case, Max!
Quote from: kkt on November 22, 2022, 06:23:54 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 22, 2022, 02:17:33 PM
Seems that I won't be working on Black Friday for the first time in 22 years of being in retail security. My wife came down with a case of COVID and passed it along to me over the weekend. Since I work for a federal body, we still follow CDC guidance which means I'm out until at minimum Saturday.
Best wishes for a mild case, Max!
I'm fairly certain this is the third time I've had COVID, but this is the first confirmed. My wife got sick and by proxy got me. I had a mild fever last night but it already broke.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 22, 2022, 02:17:33 PM
Seems that I won't be working on Black Friday for the first time in 22 years of being in retail security. My wife came down with a case of COVID and passed it along to me over the weekend. Since I work for a federal body, we still follow CDC guidance which means I'm out until at minimum Saturday.
I'm corn-fused. "Retail security" but "federal body." Do you work for a PX or a commissary on a military base or VA hospital or something?
Quote from: hbelkins on November 22, 2022, 07:20:02 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 22, 2022, 02:17:33 PM
Seems that I won't be working on Black Friday for the first time in 22 years of being in retail security. My wife came down with a case of COVID and passed it along to me over the weekend. Since I work for a federal body, we still follow CDC guidance which means I'm out until at minimum Saturday.
I'm corn-fused. "Retail security" but "federal body." Do you work for a PX or a commissary on a military base or VA hospital or something?
I do, PX specifically.
I'm off Thanksgiving Day proper, but I have to close the store Wednesday night and open it at 6 a.m. on Black Friday, so I can't leave town.
To join in on the discussion of pay increments, my time is measured in 15-minute (quarter-hour) segments. I'm on call 24-7 but a lot of my duties can be handled at home. My boss has insisted that I record any time that I work and get paid for it. So if I get a work-related call at night or on the weekends and I only spend five minutes on it, I have to charge 15 minutes (0.25 hours).
My workweek is 37.5 hours (7.5 hours each day) but there's talk that we will go to 8-hour days sometime next year (which will mean a nice raise). Currently, any hours worked between 37.5 and 40 hours in a week are compensated by comp time. Beyond 40 hours is compensated by either time-and-a-half comp time or OT pay at time-and-a-half. For years, I chose comp time but finally changed to OT pay after the July flash flooding in our area. Unfortunately, a lot of my overtime hours worked have been offset by the need to take leave time for various personal issues, which means I don't work a full 40 hours and thus don't get the pay.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 02:07:58 PMNobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
I worked for several law firms where I, as a paralegal, was entitled to a minimum of X hours of overtime if I was asked to work on a weekend day.
We have that policy as well, but this is for regular time. Nobody is entitled to work fewer than 8 hours and get paid for 8 hours.
The rigidity is screaming.
Quote from: Rothman on November 22, 2022, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 02:07:58 PMNobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
I worked for several law firms where I, as a paralegal, was entitled to a minimum of X hours of overtime if I was asked to work on a weekend day.
We have that policy as well, but this is for regular time. Nobody is entitled to work fewer than 8 hours and get paid for 8 hours.
The rigidity is screaming.
Customers pay us to do a job. If I allow someone 7 minutes every day, that's a day's worth of work in a quarter. If I allow every employee 7 minutes every day, that's an entire day by which a deadline is missed, OR the customer has to pay for overtime to make up for it.
Again, there was every attempt to be flexible until the workers forced the issue, which was working fine in other departments, but this group refused to leave well enough alone.
Quote from: Rothman on November 22, 2022, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 02:07:58 PMNobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
I worked for several law firms where I, as a paralegal, was entitled to a minimum of X hours of overtime if I was asked to work on a weekend day.
We have that policy as well, but this is for regular time. Nobody is entitled to work fewer than 8 hours and get paid for 8 hours.
The rigidity is screaming.
I actually see more rigidity from the employees in this case... especially the one who would wait to be 4 minutes late. That's way overboard.
Thankfully I work in the aviation industry, and airports never close, so you bet I am gladly working some major overtime hours all this week and cash my inflated check in a couple weeks! To me all holidays including Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving are just another routine days for me with one simple exception: work overtime and earn a lot of extra money that I don't ordinarily earn most weeks and weekends.
After busy long weekends on Veterans Day and Thanksgiving, we'll get to catch our breath for a few weeks before another busy period of Christmas and New Years, and another little bit of a breather before one final busy long weekend on MLK Day.
My employer allows us the option to either earn holiday bonus pay or save these holidays for later observance on a day of our selection. So that means while the mass majority of travelers knock themselves out during the peak holiday periods, we'll get to earn extra pay and take our holidays after the busy travel season is over and enjoy much cheaper traveling while everybody else is back to work again. Flexibility is the key to enjoying travel life. Even road tripping during the holidays is very hectic when everyone is on the roads at the same time.
Quote from: webny99 on November 22, 2022, 09:29:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 22, 2022, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 02:07:58 PMNobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
I worked for several law firms where I, as a paralegal, was entitled to a minimum of X hours of overtime if I was asked to work on a weekend day.
We have that policy as well, but this is for regular time. Nobody is entitled to work fewer than 8 hours and get paid for 8 hours.
The rigidity is screaming.
I actually see more rigidity from the employees in this case... especially the one who would wait to be 4 minutes late. That's way overboard.
Again, we're only hearing half the story.
The more I think about it, the more a failure in management is a possibility. It sounds like actions taken were punitive and escalatory, causing a reactionary cycle.
Remember that an entire section was lost to this fiasco and people assigned to other already existing units. So, instead of having and being able to restore a separate, productive unit, the end was less specialized productivity for the company.
And what for? The mantra of "Nobody gets paid to do less than 8 hours of work..." The main goal of the company is to produce their product. Seems that was lost in pursuit of time clock accuracy, probably in the name of exaggerated senses of time theft (the company is paying for those minutes!!).
Just seems like some better approaches to managing personnel than focusing on minutes on the time clock could have helped preserve the situation from the get-go.
It seems like no matter where you go, there will be people who abuse the system. Today being the day before a holiday reminds me of the firm where I worked in the late 1990s. They regularly closed early the day before a holiday–but they never confirmed either the early closing or the precise time until midday that day. Reason: Once upon a time, they would announce early closings the day before so people could plan ahead (which is quite reasonable for carpoolers, or for the one lady who slugged), but several of the staff members decided they would "take lunch" one hour before the early closing time and then just not come back, effectively getting an extra hour off. That annoyed the higher-ups because it wasn't what they intended. In principle, it seems to me that management could have just said something along the lines of there being no lunch break in view of the shorter work day and the early closing (and DC labor laws would have been on their side), but instead they just waited to announce the early closings.
Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2022, 07:12:38 AM
Quote from: webny99 on November 22, 2022, 09:29:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 22, 2022, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 02:07:58 PMNobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
I worked for several law firms where I, as a paralegal, was entitled to a minimum of X hours of overtime if I was asked to work on a weekend day.
We have that policy as well, but this is for regular time. Nobody is entitled to work fewer than 8 hours and get paid for 8 hours.
The rigidity is screaming.
I actually see more rigidity from the employees in this case... especially the one who would wait to be 4 minutes late. That's way overboard.
Again, we're only hearing half the story.
The more I think about it, the more a failure in management is a possibility. It sounds like actions taken were punitive and escalatory, causing a reactionary cycle.
Remember that an entire section was lost to this fiasco and people assigned to other already existing units. So, instead of having and being able to restore a separate, productive unit, the end was less specialized productivity for the company.
And what for? The mantra of "Nobody gets paid to do less than 8 hours of work..." The main goal of the company is to produce their product. Seems that was lost in pursuit of time clock accuracy, probably in the name of exaggerated senses of time theft (the company is paying for those minutes!!).
Just seems like some better approaches to managing personnel than focusing on minutes on the time clock could have helped preserve the situation from the get-go.
Again, you're entitled to your own opinion, but I've managed five other departments, all of them very successful, with employees who liked the environment.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 23, 2022, 08:25:14 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 23, 2022, 07:12:38 AM
Quote from: webny99 on November 22, 2022, 09:29:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 22, 2022, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 02:07:58 PMNobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
I worked for several law firms where I, as a paralegal, was entitled to a minimum of X hours of overtime if I was asked to work on a weekend day.
We have that policy as well, but this is for regular time. Nobody is entitled to work fewer than 8 hours and get paid for 8 hours.
The rigidity is screaming.
I actually see more rigidity from the employees in this case... especially the one who would wait to be 4 minutes late. That's way overboard.
Again, we're only hearing half the story.
The more I think about it, the more a failure in management is a possibility. It sounds like actions taken were punitive and escalatory, causing a reactionary cycle.
Remember that an entire section was lost to this fiasco and people assigned to other already existing units. So, instead of having and being able to restore a separate, productive unit, the end was less specialized productivity for the company.
And what for? The mantra of "Nobody gets paid to do less than 8 hours of work..." The main goal of the company is to produce their product. Seems that was lost in pursuit of time clock accuracy, probably in the name of exaggerated senses of time theft (the company is paying for those minutes!!).
Just seems like some better approaches to managing personnel than focusing on minutes on the time clock could have helped preserve the situation from the get-go.
Again, you're entitled to your own opinion, but I've managed five other departments, all of them very successful, with employees who liked the environment.
There is more flexibility when the employee is salaried than when they have to punch a clock.
I've seen employers equally anal about the timeliness of salaried employees. A couple years back I was at a staff meeting where the general manager made it completely clear her expectation was that salaried people fill out a late slip if they showed up one minute past their start time. I doubt any of them actually ended up obliging, I know that I didn't when I was told to report when I left the area to go hike on days off.
When I worked at Stop & Shop, everything was rounded to the nearest 15 minutes. Employers were only worried about gaming the average, not the exact number of minutes for every single clock in. Note that this was a union job.
I'm now off. I'm working New Year's instead. Longer shift, more pay.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 09:07:52 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 22, 2022, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 02:07:58 PMNobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
I worked for several law firms where I, as a paralegal, was entitled to a minimum of X hours of overtime if I was asked to work on a weekend day.
We have that policy as well, but this is for regular time. Nobody is entitled to work fewer than 8 hours and get paid for 8 hours.
The rigidity is screaming.
Customers pay us to do a job. If I allow someone 7 minutes every day, that's a day's worth of work in a quarter. If I allow every employee 7 minutes every day, that's an entire day by which a deadline is missed, OR the customer has to pay for overtime to make up for it.
Again, there was every attempt to be flexible until the workers forced the issue, which was working fine in other departments, but this group refused to leave well enough alone.
It sounds like the employees were exercising their rights as union employees and management didn't like it. A tale as old as time, but at least you didn't hire anyone to beat the crap out of them.
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 23, 2022, 12:21:52 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 09:07:52 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 22, 2022, 08:23:07 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 06:12:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 22, 2022, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 22, 2022, 02:07:58 PMNobody is entitled to be paid 8 hours for working less than 8 hours.
I worked for several law firms where I, as a paralegal, was entitled to a minimum of X hours of overtime if I was asked to work on a weekend day.
We have that policy as well, but this is for regular time. Nobody is entitled to work fewer than 8 hours and get paid for 8 hours.
The rigidity is screaming.
Customers pay us to do a job. If I allow someone 7 minutes every day, that's a day's worth of work in a quarter. If I allow every employee 7 minutes every day, that's an entire day by which a deadline is missed, OR the customer has to pay for overtime to make up for it.
Again, there was every attempt to be flexible until the workers forced the issue, which was working fine in other departments, but this group refused to leave well enough alone.
It sounds like the employees were exercising their rights as union employees and management didn't like it. A tale as old as time, but at least you didn't hire anyone to beat the crap out of them.
Their negotiated contract stated that it was management's discretion whether or not to excuse lateness. It was made clear that a certain amount of lateness put deadlines in jeopardy but they pushed anyway. Other departments had no issues because they were late infrequently enough that excusing it didn't put deadlines in jeopardy.
If an employee being late less than 10 minutes put deadlines in jeopardy, management failed to set deadlines correctly.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 23, 2022, 01:24:06 PM
If an employee being late less than 10 minutes put deadlines in jeopardy, management failed to set deadlines correctly.
I generally agree. But not all deadlines are set by the company you're actually working for. I have a good friend who writes safety reports for Textron Aviation, and his deadlines are often determined by the government rather than Textron.
And ten minutes late every day can add up.
Quote from: kphoger on November 23, 2022, 01:26:05 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 23, 2022, 01:24:06 PM
If an employee being late less than 10 minutes put deadlines in jeopardy, management failed to set deadlines correctly.
I generally agree. But not all deadlines are set by the company you're actually working for. I have a good friend who writes safety reports for Textron Aviation, and his deadlines are often determined by the government rather than Textron.
And ten minutes late every day can add up.
One person being ten minutes late one time doesn't put a deadline in jeopardy.
But as little as 7 minutes every day for a quarter adds up to an entire day. And yes, customers set deadlines and customers pay for a certain number of staff.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone. As I said, I'm working like any other regular day (no holiday here). I know Big Rig Steve is going live later today, meaning he is working Thanksgiving. He didn't last year as he was on a 34 hour restart.
And one reason why I won't be working on a holiday this year...I decided to take a year off from my plowing gig. After doing it for 20 years, decided I'll rather spend my nights in bed while it's snowing out instead of working the roads.
Checking in for my Thanksgiving morning work shift.
Quote
But as little as 7 minutes every day for a quarter adds up to an entire day.
The horror.
I mean, yes, there are rules, but then there's being mercurial or draconian for little more reason than the rule itself. Again, I guess I find this hyperfocus on the clock clouding out other management approaches to maximize productivity and even causing a decrease in such.
I tend to view myself as a pretty average manager, which makes me totally amazed at cases of absolute managerial incompetence (thinking about much, much more severe cases than losing a department over time clock rules spats). Saw one manager follow the what-not-to-do examples in the supervisory textbook over a few years -- he had a huge problem trusting staff, tried to do everything himself, screwed everything up since he didn't know what he was doing, and the organization is still hurting from the subsequent turnover (200% now) and loss of experience and knowledge.
I've also witnessed the slow disintegration of a large engineering group due to a manager that doesn't respect the fact that you can only squeeze so much out of employees and seems blind to the individual capabilities of his staff. Instead of managing expectations of his own management, given that he now only has a third of the engineers to do the work (due to market conditions and the total collapse of morale in his group), he burned out his staff. When his star players raised concerns, they were met with indifference and most have bolted out now. Productivity has collapsed and what work is done is error-riddled. Another example of "You're here to work and do what you're told no matter how many hours..." overpowering the need to actually produce products for clients.
Then again, if I'm average, there is a lot of room for a lot poorer performance...
There's a lot of other things holding back performance besides being 7 minutes late. Are there processes that have outlived their usefulness? Taking a 20 minute smoke break every hour? Taking time while a computer runs a long process or prints something out as time to kick back instead of doing something else useful? If employees are motivated you should see their productivity... or rethink your performance metrics.
People don't work like machines and certainly aren't ever going to work 100% efficiently no matter how motivated they are.
This makes me thankful for my place of employment. They have a five-minute grace period after the scheduled time to start where you can clock in with no problem (as long as you don't do it more than 4 times a month.) And even with that the manager can always mess with the time clock to adjust things for you as long as you inform him ahead of time. Hell this week alone the manager allowed two people to come in a half-hour later than normal (they had been stuck in traffic due to a 19-month-and-counting construction project) with no problem, only asking that they make up the half hour at the end of their shift (only so they could get their full 8 hours and not be screwed over on pay.) And we get holidays off to boot. The management ain't perfect and do have their problems but at least they don't get anal about this sort of stuff. Something to be grateful for this holiday.
For the 48th year in a row, I am not working on turkey day.
Happy Thanksgiving y'all!