How do you define the Rust Belt?

[kphoger]

If all you ever visited in Chicago was the Loop, and downtown in Detroit, you'd say both cities are doing well.

Eeeh. I'm not convinced. Downtown Chicago is bustling, crowded, contains some major tourist attractions, feels like a major commercial hub/world-class city to at least some degree.

Agreed.  When I think of cities that have a thriving downtown, Chicago is the first city that comes to mind.

[PAHighways]

This is a question I have been thinking about a bit recently. In particular, I am wondering what characteristics determine whether an area is part of the Rust Belt, and what the general boundaries of the region are thought to be. My home city of Rochester itself is interesting, in that it is split in many ways, with the eastern half being more white collar and containing a lot of the richer suburbs, while the western half is more blue collar, has a flatter landscape, and more in common with Buffalo (very clearly part of the Rust Belt).

My personal feeling is that the Rust Belt is roughly diamond-shaped, with Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Louisville, and Detroit being the four corners, while I would not consider Chicago to be part of it. Of course, that is just my opinion and a very approximated one at that, so I am interested to see what others think.

Not sure how you can not consider Chicago a part of the Rust Belt when Gary, only 20 miles away, clearly is. Gary is essentially a mini-Detroit.

One area not traditionally considered the Rust Belt, but I think should be, is Duluth-Superior and the Iron Range of Minnesota. Apart from the fact iron degrades into rust, that general area has had to retool its economy in much the same way as the traditional Rust Belt.

Duluth is really the only one of the group with any kind of success in diversifying their economy with slow but steady growth in aerospace, tech, and healthcare. Superior had a much lauded deal with Kestrel Aircraft that fell apart, and the Range cities are still struggling to move away from the infamous 3 Ts (tourism, timber, taconite).

Pittsburgh had to change career paths in the 80s to the "eds and meds" fields thanks in part to Pitt and CMU.  Today there is only one steel mill within a 10 mile radius of downtown.

If they hadn't changed, a drive down PA 837 through the Mon Valley shows what happens when municipalities lack any back up plans.

SM-G965U

[Rothman]

This is a question I have been thinking about a bit recently. In particular, I am wondering what characteristics determine whether an area is part of the Rust Belt, and what the general boundaries of the region are thought to be. My home city of Rochester itself is interesting, in that it is split in many ways, with the eastern half being more white collar and containing a lot of the richer suburbs, while the western half is more blue collar, has a flatter landscape, and more in common with Buffalo (very clearly part of the Rust Belt).

My personal feeling is that the Rust Belt is roughly diamond-shaped, with Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Louisville, and Detroit being the four corners, while I would not consider Chicago to be part of it. Of course, that is just my opinion and a very approximated one at that, so I am interested to see what others think.

Not sure how you can not consider Chicago a part of the Rust Belt when Gary, only 20 miles away, clearly is. Gary is essentially a mini-Detroit.

One area not traditionally considered the Rust Belt, but I think should be, is Duluth-Superior and the Iron Range of Minnesota. Apart from the fact iron degrades into rust, that general area has had to retool its economy in much the same way as the traditional Rust Belt.

Duluth is really the only one of the group with any kind of success in diversifying their economy with slow but steady growth in aerospace, tech, and healthcare. Superior had a much lauded deal with Kestrel Aircraft that fell apart, and the Range cities are still struggling to move away from the infamous 3 Ts (tourism, timber, taconite).

If history has taught Duluth anything, it's that any growth can't be trusted up there.  The boom-bust cycles have been traumatic  in the Twin Ports over the last 150 years.

[thspfc]

This is a question I have been thinking about a bit recently. In particular, I am wondering what characteristics determine whether an area is part of the Rust Belt, and what the general boundaries of the region are thought to be. My home city of Rochester itself is interesting, in that it is split in many ways, with the eastern half being more white collar and containing a lot of the richer suburbs, while the western half is more blue collar, has a flatter landscape, and more in common with Buffalo (very clearly part of the Rust Belt).

My personal feeling is that the Rust Belt is roughly diamond-shaped, with Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Louisville, and Detroit being the four corners, while I would not consider Chicago to be part of it. Of course, that is just my opinion and a very approximated one at that, so I am interested to see what others think.

Not sure how you can not consider Chicago a part of the Rust Belt when Gary, only 20 miles away, clearly is. Gary is essentially a mini-Detroit.

One area not traditionally considered the Rust Belt, but I think should be, is Duluth-Superior and the Iron Range of Minnesota. Apart from the fact iron degrades into rust, that general area has had to retool its economy in much the same way as the traditional Rust Belt.

Duluth is really the only one of the group with any kind of success in diversifying their economy with slow but steady growth in aerospace, tech, and healthcare. Superior had a much lauded deal with Kestrel Aircraft that fell apart, and the Range cities are still struggling to move away from the infamous 3 Ts (tourism, timber, taconite).

Yes, Duluth, Superior, and several towns in northern Minnesota are part of the rust belt. All of the UP is, too - its population peaked at 332k in the 20s and is down to 310k now.

[kphoger]

All of the UP is, too - its population peaked at 332k in the 20s and is down to 310k now.

A 7% decline over the course of 100 years doesn't seem like a substantial loss to me.

[Brandon]

All of the UP is, too - its population peaked at 332k in the 20s and is down to 310k now.

A 7% decline over the course of 100 years doesn't seem like a substantial loss to me.

Depends on where you are.  Houghton County, for example, dropped from 88,000 in 1910 to 36,000 in 2010 (and 34,000 in 1970!).

[Max Rockatansky]

All of the UP is, too - its population peaked at 332k in the 20s and is down to 310k now.

A 7% decline over the course of 100 years doesn't seem like a substantial loss to me.

Depends on where you are.  Houghton County, for example, dropped from 88,000 in 1910 to 36,000 in 2010 (and 34,000 in 1970!).

Everything north of Houghton in the copper mining country is essentially in ruins.  There are a surprisingly high concentration of places that could be considered ghost towns now. 

[noelbotevera]

I just take a simple definition: any city that once had a thriving manufacturing sector, is generally located around the Great Lakes (though I do include outliers - e.g. Harrisburg and Bethlehem PA), suffers severe crime, poverty, or depopulation issues ever since the stagflation crisis of the 1970s, and were hotbeds of racial violence in the 1960s is automatically part of the Rust Belt.

You could contest this definition by saying that these cities declined with the "white flight" of the 1950s, but I argue that unions and thus white blue collar workers were still strong in these cities even after white flight.

You could also argue that this definition is very black and white, and to that I can't contest. Defining regional boundaries is really down to semantics and historical interpretations, as statistical trends can overlap between regions - for example: where does the Rust Belt end and the Sun Belt begin?

[catch22]

All of the UP is, too - its population peaked at 332k in the 20s and is down to 310k now.

A 7% decline over the course of 100 years doesn't seem like a substantial loss to me.

Depends on where you are.  Houghton County, for example, dropped from 88,000 in 1910 to 36,000 in 2010 (and 34,000 in 1970!).

I started at MTU right after the Calumet & Hecla miners went on strike in 1968, and C&H shut down operations as a result.  During my time there it was rather disconcerting to watch so many businesses close as people moved away to find work.  Lake Linden (where a lot of my friends lived off-campus) turned into the proverbial ghost town.

[thspfc]

All of the UP is, too - its population peaked at 332k in the 20s and is down to 310k now.

A 7% decline over the course of 100 years doesn't seem like a substantial loss to me.

I guess not, but if you've ever been there there are dozens of ghost towns scattered around the peninsula. Take a drive on M-28 from Wakefield to Marquette, or US-41 from Houghton to Copper Harbor.

[kevinb1994]

I just take a simple definition: any city that once had a thriving manufacturing sector, is generally located around the Great Lakes (though I do include outliers - e.g. Harrisburg and Bethlehem PA), suffers severe crime, poverty, or depopulation issues ever since the stagflation crisis of the 1970s, and were hotbeds of racial violence in the 1960s is automatically part of the Rust Belt.

You could contest this definition by saying that these cities declined with the "white flight" of the 1950s, but I argue that unions and thus white blue collar workers were still strong in these cities even after white flight.

You could also argue that this definition is very black and white, and to that I can't contest. Defining regional boundaries is really down to semantics and historical interpretations, as statistical trends can overlap between regions - for example: where does the Rust Belt end and the Sun Belt begin?

Sun Belt is also known as the Bible Belt in some (but not all) areas of the South. I'd say anywhere south and/or west of the Ohio River Valley and the Appalachian Mountains (Appalachia) and east of the Rocky Mountains (Mountain Time Zone). This would cover both the Central and Eastern Time Zones.

[Max Rockatansky]

All of the UP is, too - its population peaked at 332k in the 20s and is down to 310k now.

A 7% decline over the course of 100 years doesn't seem like a substantial loss to me.

I guess not, but if you've ever been there there are dozens of ghost towns scattered around the peninsula. Take a drive on M-28 from Wakefield to Marquette, or US-41 from Houghton to Copper Harbor.

M-26 from Houghton to Copper Harbor goes through more town sites. US 41 goes through the ruins of the Quincy Mine.

[Beltway]

You could also argue that this definition is very black and white, and to that I can't contest. Defining regional boundaries is really down to semantics and historical interpretations, as statistical trends can overlap between regions - for example: where does the Rust Belt end and the Sun Belt begin?

Sun Belt is also known as the Bible Belt in areas of the South. I'd say anywhere south and/or west of the Ohio River Valley and the Appalachian Mountains (Appalachia) and east of the Rocky Mountains (Mountain Time Zone). This would cover both the Central and Eastern Time Zones.

The Sun Belt stretches across the whole country from the Southeast to the Southwest, generally the 36th parallel and southward.  Far south of the Rust Belt and questionable if it contains any part of Tennessee or North Carolina.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Belt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Belt#/media/File:Sun_belt.svg

[Rothman]

I don't equate the Sun Belt with the Bible Belt.  Sun Belt indicates growing southern cities rather than an abundance of conservative evangelical Christian sects.

[Max Rockatansky]

If all you ever visited in Chicago was the Loop, and downtown in Detroit, you'd say both cities are doing well.

Eeeh. I'm not convinced. Downtown Chicago is bustling, crowded, contains some major tourist attractions, feels like a major commercial hub/world-class city to at least some degree.

Agreed.  When I think of cities that have a thriving downtown, Chicago is the first city that comes to mind.

Detroit's downtown was a wreck when I was growing up in the city.  It has been surreal to see it rapidly reviving this past decades on trips back to visit family.

[bandit957]

In Kentucky, the cities of Covington, Newport, Bellevue, and Dayton are very clearly in the Rust Belt.

[bing101]

I just take a simple definition: any city that once had a thriving manufacturing sector, is generally located around the Great Lakes (though I do include outliers - e.g. Harrisburg and Bethlehem PA), suffers severe crime, poverty, or depopulation issues ever since the stagflation crisis of the 1970s, and were hotbeds of racial violence in the 1960s is automatically part of the Rust Belt.

You could contest this definition by saying that these cities declined with the "white flight" of the 1950s, but I argue that unions and thus white blue collar workers were still strong in these cities even after white flight.

You could also argue that this definition is very black and white, and to that I can't contest. Defining regional boundaries is really down to semantics and historical interpretations, as statistical trends can overlap between regions - for example: where does the Rust Belt end and the Sun Belt begin?

Sun Belt is also known as the Bible Belt in some (but not all) areas of the South. I'd say anywhere south and/or west of the Ohio River Valley and the Appalachian Mountains (Appalachia) and east of the Rocky Mountains (Mountain Time Zone). This would cover both the Central and Eastern Time Zones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_belt_regions_of_the_United_States

Here is a list of belt regions of the USA

[FightingIrish]

My criteria:

1. Industrial-based economy
2. Snow
3. Road salt

[jon daly]

TIL that HL Mencken coin the term Bible Belt and political strategist came up with Sunbelt. I didn't see the etymology of Rust Belt on Wikipedia.

Personally, Sunbelt comes to my mind when I think of post WWII sports league expansions; even though Denver is not in that belt, but has since had the Broncos, Rockies, Nuggets and Avs.

[thspfc]

My criteria:

1. Industrial-based economy
2. Snow
3. Road salt

That's pretty much it.

[SP Cook]

I don't equate the Sun Belt with the Bible Belt.  Sun Belt indicates growing southern cities rather than an abundance of conservative evangelical Christian sects.

As belts can overlap, some of the Sun Belt is in the Bible Belt, some is not; and some of the Bible Belt is in the Sun Belt, and some is not.

The Sun Belt, a term coined by Kevin Phillips, is, to me, defined by places made pleasant to live in via the massive environment changing public works projects, which started under Hoover and were greatly expanded under FDR; and via the availability of affordable central air conditioning.  While there are all sorts of people there, a large part of the term as Phillips used it was a place filling with people moving there just after finishing their education, seeking a nice place to live and wanting to be free of the old money elites "back home".   These people, who were self-reliant and self-made, were thought by Phillips to be less receptive to an agenda based on helping the "less fortunate".

Ironically, these people's children and grand children, raised in the most man-made and artificial environment in the history of the world, are the ones most likely to be seduced by the cult of environmental extremism. 

The Bible Belt is mostly places originally settled by a majority of Scots-Irish persons, and includes many places that are not at all sunny, and excludes a lot of places that are.  As the term is used, it means place where a number of people, perhaps a majority, take their religion seriously and believe that one's life should be guided by it.

[jon daly]

If I grew up in Phoenix don't think it would be ironic to either,

a.) Worry about if I'm going to run out of potable water, or
b.) Not worry about it and think that there will be a solution like desalination.

Both sound like very human responses.

[webny99]

^ Wrong thread? 

[jon daly]

Sorry, I was responding to the previous post. I'm used to forums that are more digressive and less apt to stay on topic than aaroads.

[CtrlAltDel]

^ Wrong thread? 

No, it's a valid retort to SP Cook's claims and beliefs. And I, for one, find them especially infuriating because he tends to present these things as obvious facts that more or less go without saying.