New York

[cl94]

Are these yellow on brown signs an Adirondack thing? https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4805199,-73.8189322,3a,15y,166.29h,89.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5V6QUDsqVCspmfWH4njEuw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Adirondack and Catskill, yes. Although that particular one looks pretty off-spec.

You can see a bunch of examples of these on my "New York State Touring Routes and Parkways Traveled" page:

http://www.teresco.org/pics/nyshighways/

Scroll to routes like NY 30 that spend some time in the Adirondacks.

I know there was some discussion of these here in the not-too-distant past in the context of an effort to force NY to stop using them because of readability problems.  I like them and hope NY continues to use them.

Region 1 has a bunch of yellow on brown reference markers scattered around. Unlike every other type of sign, these are not ubiquitous. Do note that the vast majority of signs on I-87 are in standard colors.

[vdeane]

The yellow on brown reference markers are the new standard for the Adirondacks (except for possibly I-87).  Basically, the FHWA has allowed NY to retain yellow on brown for the Adirondacks, but not the Catskills, which will be white on brown going forward.  Also, I believe some yellow and brown signs (such as Hospital signs) are reverting to their standard colors in both parks.

[Pete from Boston]

The yellow on brown reference markers are the new standard for the Adirondacks (except for possibly I-87).  Basically, the FHWA has allowed NY to retain yellow on brown for the Adirondacks, but not the Catskills, which will be white on brown going forward.  Also, I believe some yellow and brown signs (such as Hospital signs) are reverting to their standard colors in both parks.

Why Adirondack and not Catskill?  Doesn't a single standard serve the public better than two?

[cl94]

The yellow on brown reference markers are the new standard for the Adirondacks (except for possibly I-87).  Basically, the FHWA has allowed NY to retain yellow on brown for the Adirondacks, but not the Catskills, which will be white on brown going forward.  Also, I believe some yellow and brown signs (such as Hospital signs) are reverting to their standard colors in both parks.

Services signs were typically standard colors anyway

[vdeane]

Probably because the Adirondacks are the bigger and more well known of the two and the FHWA was very much against with allowing the signs to continue to be used at all.  We're lucky even the Adirondacks still have them.

[empirestate]

The yellow on brown reference markers are the new standard for the Adirondacks (except for possibly I-87).  Basically, the FHWA has allowed NY to retain yellow on brown for the Adirondacks, but not the Catskills, which will be white on brown going forward.  Also, I believe some yellow and brown signs (such as Hospital signs) are reverting to their standard colors in both parks.

Why Adirondack and not Catskill?  Doesn't a single standard serve the public better than two?

That's not a basic premise I would entertain, no. If diverse conditions warrant diverse standards, then a single standard would serve the public less well than two. Now, whether the Adirondack and Catskill preserves represent diverse conditions, that is certainly a good question.

[Alps]

The yellow on brown reference markers are the new standard for the Adirondacks (except for possibly I-87).  Basically, the FHWA has allowed NY to retain yellow on brown for the Adirondacks, but not the Catskills, which will be white on brown going forward.  Also, I believe some yellow and brown signs (such as Hospital signs) are reverting to their standard colors in both parks.

Why Adirondack and not Catskill?  Doesn't a single standard serve the public better than two?

That's not a basic premise I would entertain, no. If diverse conditions warrant diverse standards, then a single standard would serve the public less well than two. Now, whether the Adirondack and Catskill preserves represent diverse conditions, that is certainly a good question.

I think there's a "Historic Resource" argument to be made in the Adirondacks, since this practice has been going on long enough that yellow-on-brown is expected as part of the landscape. I don't think the Catskills are known for it quite the same way. SHPO does strange things. (State Historic Preservation Office - at least that's what the one in NJ is called.)

[Pete from Boston]

The yellow on brown reference markers are the new standard for the Adirondacks (except for possibly I-87).  Basically, the FHWA has allowed NY to retain yellow on brown for the Adirondacks, but not the Catskills, which will be white on brown going forward.  Also, I believe some yellow and brown signs (such as Hospital signs) are reverting to their standard colors in both parks.

Why Adirondack and not Catskill?  Doesn't a single standard serve the public better than two?

That's not a basic premise I would entertain, no. If diverse conditions warrant diverse standards, then a single standard would serve the public less well than two. Now, whether the Adirondack and Catskill preserves represent diverse conditions, that is certainly a good question.

I think there's a "Historic Resource" argument to be made in the Adirondacks, since this practice has been going on long enough that yellow-on-brown is expected as part of the landscape. I don't think the Catskills are known for it quite the same way. SHPO does strange things. (State Historic Preservation Office - at least that's what the one in NJ is called.)

I don't know the comparative histories of how Adirondack and Catskill parks are conceived. I simply am going based on the assumption that they both represent the same type of political fiction, and thus ought to be treated more or less the same in terms of how they are presented to the public.  As empirestate points out, this may very well be a flawed assumption.  It is nevertheless what I chose to assume because looking up and reading more about this is more than I was motivated to do.

[cl94]

The big difference between the parks is that Adirondack Park has the Adirondack Park Agency, which strictly regulates development within the park. Granted, opposition is strong, but it has preserved the parklike atmosphere and it is basically a state park that has people living in it. Catskill Park is little more than a forest preserve.

[Buffaboy]

Because Obama signed the transportation bill on Friday, could we see the completion of the 219 corridor in the future?

[cl94]

Because Obama signed the transportation bill on Friday, could we see the completion of the 219 corridor in the future?

Doubtful. US 219 is mainly being held up by disputes with the Seneca Nation about treaties. New York wants the Senecas to pay the state casino revenue, which is in violation of a federal treaty.

If anything highway-related in New York gets pushed up, it will probably be the easternmost section of I-86 (which needs to be widened anyway) or one of the Thruway projects in Buffalo that will be a joint project with NYSDOT. Honestly, what needs money right now is passenger rail and mass transit in the form of East Side Access, a new Hudson River tunnel, and the Second Avenue Subway, if only so those projects actually get completed (because we all know they're needed).

[vdeane]

Don't forget that NY doesn't even have the funding to do the environmental impact statement for the remainder of US 219, most of which isn't on Seneca land.  The next project (formerly in the STIP, the only one that ever was), which probably would have been done by now had NYSDOT not switched into preservation mode a few years ago, would have extended the freeway south to Snake Run Rd.

Also, I-81 in Syracuse is now a high priority corridor.

[cl94]

Don't forget that NY doesn't even have the funding to do the environmental impact statement for the remainder of US 219, most of which isn't on Seneca land.  The next project (formerly in the STIP, the only one that ever was), which probably would have been done by now had NYSDOT not switched into preservation mode a few years ago, would have extended the freeway south to Snake Run Rd.

Also, I-81 in Syracuse is now a high priority corridor.

I don't really see the point in going to Snake Run Road unless you can get the funding to get past NY 242. That's where the main bottleneck is. Snake Run Road doesn't even get past Ashford Hollow, let alone the nasty hill just south of there or the ski town.

[vdeane]

I believe the plan was to build US 219 one interchange at a time.  No big long sections of new freeway construction in New York.  We don't do that here any more.

[Duke87]

They could also pull a Quebec and build an orphaned bypass of Ellicottville next before anything else, on the pretense of that being the most useful segment. But they won't do that.

Is there some particular reason the rest of 219 down to Salamanca needs to be full freeway or would an expressway ("West Virginia Freeway") design suffice? Would be cheaper both due to not needing as many overpasses and interchanges, and due to the potential of using the existing alignment as half the road in some places.

On the note of I-81 being designated a high priority corridor, what is the latest on the viaduct in Syracuse? Any options seemingly favored?

[cl94]

They could also pull a Quebec and build an orphaned bypass of Ellicottville next before anything else, on the pretense of that being the most useful segment. But they won't do that.

Is there some particular reason the rest of 219 down to Salamanca needs to be full freeway or would an expressway ("West Virginia Freeway") design suffice? Would be cheaper both due to not needing as many overpasses and interchanges, and due to the potential of using the existing alignment as half the road in some places.

Along most of US 219, a new alignment is necessary due to grades, curves, and development. The only portion they could even think of using is a small stretch between Ellicottville and Great Valley. New York never really liked anything that wasn't full control of access. Even the expressway sections of NY 17 (I think 5) were limited to developed areas and where terrain made construction of a new alignment impractical, with one of those (Corning) designed to be a temporary measure that was bypassed pretty quickly.

[okc1]

Is there some particular reason the rest of 219 down to Salamanca needs to be full freeway or would an expressway ("West Virginia Freeway") design suffice? Would be cheaper both due to not needing as many overpasses and interchanges, and due to the potential of using the existing alignment as half the road in some places.

Pennsylvania will likely choose the WV Freeway option at best.  It will simply cost too much to build a full freeway south of Bradford.  The road should be designed to serve the communities along it; long-distance travel is well-served by I-390/US 15.

[cl94]

Is there some particular reason the rest of 219 down to Salamanca needs to be full freeway or would an expressway ("West Virginia Freeway") design suffice? Would be cheaper both due to not needing as many overpasses and interchanges, and due to the potential of using the existing alignment as half the road in some places.

Pennsylvania will likely choose the WV Freeway option at best.  It will simply cost too much to build a full freeway south of Bradford.  The road should be designed to serve the communities along it; long-distance travel is well-served by I-390/US 15.

Except US 219 gets a heck of a lot of truck traffic that uses it between SW Pennsylvania and Buffalo, a lot of which is avoiding the tolls. Every small town will have to be bypassed unless they want to take out every house in the town. Most of it would need a bypass anyway to preserve access to the numerous homes built right on the road. That and the grades/curves in PA, even without the section that has the truck bypass, would need some major upgrades.

[vdeane]

On the note of I-81 being designated a high priority corridor, what is the latest on the viaduct in Syracuse? Any options seemingly favored?

I'm not aware of anything beyond the fact that the viaduct and boulevard alternatives are still being evaluated, along with an unspecified tunnel option that is not any of the alternatives investigated before nor the DestiNY USA proposal (which omitted the I-690 interchange).

[noelbotevera]

Is there some particular reason the rest of 219 down to Salamanca needs to be full freeway or would an expressway ("West Virginia Freeway") design suffice? Would be cheaper both due to not needing as many overpasses and interchanges, and due to the potential of using the existing alignment as half the road in some places.

Pennsylvania will likely choose the WV Freeway option at best.  It will simply cost too much to build a full freeway south of Bradford.  The road should be designed to serve the communities along it; long-distance travel is well-served by I-390/US 15.

Except US 219 gets a heck of a lot of truck traffic that uses it between SW Pennsylvania and Buffalo, a lot of which is avoiding the tolls. Every small town will have to be bypassed unless they want to take out every house in the town. Most of it would need a bypass anyway to preserve access to the numerous homes built right on the road. That and the grades/curves in PA, even without the section that has the truck bypass, would need some major upgrades.

I find it easy to get US 219 freeway from Ebensburg up until PA 36. North of there, it's pretty tricky due to how curvy the road is.

[ixnay]

They could also pull a Quebec and build an orphaned bypass of Ellicottville next before anything else, on the pretense of that being the most useful segment. But they won't do that.

Is there some particular reason the rest of 219 down to Salamanca needs to be full freeway or would an expressway ("West Virginia Freeway") design suffice? Would be cheaper both due to not needing as many overpasses and interchanges, and due to the potential of using the existing alignment as half the road in some places.

On the note of I-81 being designated a high priority corridor, what is the latest on the viaduct in Syracuse? Any options seemingly favored?

West Virginia WHAT??? Never saw that term before.

ixnay

[froggie]

He probably made it up on the spot.  Likely referring to how West Virginia signs some of their expressway-grade facilities as "freeways"...

[Buffaboy]

He probably made it up on the spot.  Likely referring to how West Virginia signs some of their expressway-grade facilities as "freeways"...

Have you ever noticed most NY freeways are known as "Expressways?" Probably because that's what they actually are.

Okay that's a rhetorical question.

[Pete from Boston]

He probably made it up on the spot.  Likely referring to how West Virginia signs some of their expressway-grade facilities as "freeways"...

Have you ever noticed most NY freeways are known as "Expressways?" Probably because that's what they actually are.

I thought it was irony.

[dgolub]

Have you ever noticed most NY freeways are known as "Expressways?" Probably because that's what they actually are.

Almost all expressways in the New York area are full freeways, and many of them are interstates.  In this area, we use "highway" for what FHWA calls a freeway.  A highway is considered an expressway if all vehicles (including trucks) are allowed or a parkway if only cars are allowed.  The terminology dates back to before the interstate system existed, so I'd guess that it probably also goes back to before functional classification.