New York

[hotdogPi]

I have noticed the exact opposite in the Boston area – if you try to go 55 in the left lane, you will get run over. Slow left lane hogs do not exist here.

[webny99]

I have noticed the exact opposite in the Boston area – if you try to go 55 in the left lane, you will get run over. Slow left lane hogs do not exist here.

That would be the case in New York, too, but when we talk about left lane hogs we're usually talking about traffic going at least 5 and often 10-15 mph over the limit. In fact the most common type of left lane hogs in NY would be those who do 65-70 mph in a 55 mph zone and/or 75-80 mph in a 65 mph zone and do not move over for faster traffic under any circumstances. They're going fast enough that it's not as egregious, but it's still annoying that they do not adhere to KRETP. 

[empirestate]

I will admit that I do stay in the center lane more than I probably should, but I'm usually going fast enough that I'm not usually impeding traffic.

They're going fast enough that it's not as egregious, but it's still annoying that they do not adhere to KRETP. 

I think that's a common theme, indeed–a lot of drivers seem to feel that as long as they're going fast, then they ought to be on the left. I think that just as some people decide they want to cruise idly, so they choose the middle lane, some others decide in advance that they just plan to go faster than everyone else, so they head straight for the left lane because, in theory, they will be passing everybody.

Of course, those who decide to be faster than everyone else are, with one exception, all incorrect...

[Alps]

No major changes needed for the rest of the segments for neither the present nor the foreseeable future.

Agreed for I-87, but you're talking about the entire Thruway, some four-lane sections of I-90 are nearly as busy as Harriman-Albany.

When I looked at the traffic counts in Catskills, they were surprisingly low.
Of course, summer weekend rush from NYC will be multiple times higher, but the usual question is if those rush days justify an upgrade. Especially with Daddy bridge credits being there for long term payoff

Yeah, I've run into major headaches on summer or even autumn weekends (leaves changing). It could widen.

[froggie]

This becomes even more magnified when city folk who don't understand KRETP decide they want to clog the left lane as well.

My experience with NY drivers is that it isn't just the "city folk" who don't understand KRETP.  The whole state as a general rule ignores it.

[Rothman]

This becomes even more magnified when city folk who don't understand KRETP decide they want to clog the left lane as well.

My experience with NY drivers is that it isn't just the "city folk" who don't understand KRETP.  The whole state as a general rule ignores it.

Meh.  I don't know.  There's a lot of people who pass a line of cars and they pass them slower than you're going, but I don't consider that LLB-ing since they're at least passing people.

No one beats Ohioans when it comes to camping out in the left lane "just because."

[kalvado]

No major changes needed for the rest of the segments for neither the present nor the foreseeable future.

Agreed for I-87, but you're talking about the entire Thruway, some four-lane sections of I-90 are nearly as busy as Harriman-Albany.

When I looked at the traffic counts in Catskills, they were surprisingly low.
Of course, summer weekend rush from NYC will be multiple times higher, but the usual question is if those rush days justify an upgrade. Especially with Daddy bridge credits being there for long term payoff

Yeah, I've run into major headaches on summer or even autumn weekends (leaves changing). It could widen.

In terms of NYC weekend traffic, things maybe more involved. On one hand, city has virtually endless traffic source capacity. So widening would be negated by redistributed traffic from other destinations - Poconos and what not, as well as extra travellers.
The other aspect is status of Catskills and Adirondack. They are natural conservation, rather than recreational parks, and many popular destinations are running at and above capacity.
People are actually forced to leave when there is no parking.
A first result from Google search regarding the issue:
https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2021/04/01/adirondacks-registration-parking-lot-permit-pass-required-popular-hikes-this-year/7058308002/

[Rothman]

No major changes needed for the rest of the segments for neither the present nor the foreseeable future.

Agreed for I-87, but you're talking about the entire Thruway, some four-lane sections of I-90 are nearly as busy as Harriman-Albany.

When I looked at the traffic counts in Catskills, they were surprisingly low.
Of course, summer weekend rush from NYC will be multiple times higher, but the usual question is if those rush days justify an upgrade. Especially with Daddy bridge credits being there for long term payoff

Yeah, I've run into major headaches on summer or even autumn weekends (leaves changing). It could widen.

In terms of NYC weekend traffic, things maybe more involved. On one hand, city has virtually endless traffic source capacity. So widening would be negated by redistributed traffic from other destinations - Poconos and what not, as well as extra travellers.
The other aspect is status of Catskills and Adirondack. They are natural conservation, rather than recreational parks, and many popular destinations are running at and above capacity.
People are actually forced to leave when there is no parking.
A first result from Google search regarding the issue:
https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2021/04/01/adirondacks-registration-parking-lot-permit-pass-required-popular-hikes-this-year/7058308002/

Makes you wonder who gets to make that determination of whether a park is conservation or recreation and how on Earth they think they can keep the two purposes exclusive from one another.  Seems quixotic all around.

I am all for crowd controls -- even using lotteries and quotas and the like to keep them down.  The Kaaterskill Falls area is getting trashed by overwhelming crowds, for just one known example.  The ADK helps with managing Adirondack Park, but I don't know their involvement with the Catskills.  I'd be surprised if they or a counterpart wasn't in the Catskills.  Then again, the Catskills had a network of private resorts, maybe their interests filled that role?

I've been worried about the declining etiquette amongst hikers in the woods.  Hikers trampling this and that or blasting music out of Bluetooth speakers (modern say boom boxes).  I don't think we have the resources to protect nature from ourselves and training new generations seems to be failing (not that older generations are perfect).

Still, despite the way Adirondack and Catskill Parks were established, managing them like any other natural park system to ensure the natural resources aren't destroyed seems obvious to me.

[kalvado]

No major changes needed for the rest of the segments for neither the present nor the foreseeable future.

Agreed for I-87, but you're talking about the entire Thruway, some four-lane sections of I-90 are nearly as busy as Harriman-Albany.

When I looked at the traffic counts in Catskills, they were surprisingly low.
Of course, summer weekend rush from NYC will be multiple times higher, but the usual question is if those rush days justify an upgrade. Especially with Daddy bridge credits being there for long term payoff

Yeah, I've run into major headaches on summer or even autumn weekends (leaves changing). It could widen.

In terms of NYC weekend traffic, things maybe more involved. On one hand, city has virtually endless traffic source capacity. So widening would be negated by redistributed traffic from other destinations - Poconos and what not, as well as extra travellers.
The other aspect is status of Catskills and Adirondack. They are natural conservation, rather than recreational parks, and many popular destinations are running at and above capacity.
People are actually forced to leave when there is no parking.
A first result from Google search regarding the issue:
https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2021/04/01/adirondacks-registration-parking-lot-permit-pass-required-popular-hikes-this-year/7058308002/

Makes you wonder who gets to make that determination of whether a park is conservation or recreation and how on Earth they think they can keep the two purposes exclusive from one another.  Seems quixotic all around.

I am all for crowd controls -- even using lotteries and quotas and the like to keep them down.  The Kaaterskill Falls area is getting trashed by overwhelming crowds, for just one known example.  The ADK helps with managing Adirondack Park, but I don't know their involvement with the Catskills.  I'd be surprised if they or a counterpart wasn't in the Catskills.  Then again, the Catskills had a network of private resorts, maybe their interests filled that role?

I've been worried about the declining etiquette amongst hikers in the woods.  Hikers trampling this and that or blasting music out of Bluetooth speakers (modern say boom boxes).  I don't think we have the resources to protect nature from ourselves and training new generations seems to be failing (not that older generations are perfect).

Still, despite the way Adirondack and Catskill Parks were established, managing them like any other natural park system to ensure the natural resources aren't destroyed seems obvious to me.

Adirondack role may be defined by NYS constitution as "forever wild" - with lots of amendments and fine print.
And Catskills resorts were a bit different, with people more confined to resort area - not walking all over the forest. Besides, large areas of Catskills are now bought out by NYC to protect water sources from human activities.

[Rothman]

No major changes needed for the rest of the segments for neither the present nor the foreseeable future.

Agreed for I-87, but you're talking about the entire Thruway, some four-lane sections of I-90 are nearly as busy as Harriman-Albany.

When I looked at the traffic counts in Catskills, they were surprisingly low.
Of course, summer weekend rush from NYC will be multiple times higher, but the usual question is if those rush days justify an upgrade. Especially with Daddy bridge credits being there for long term payoff

Yeah, I've run into major headaches on summer or even autumn weekends (leaves changing). It could widen.

In terms of NYC weekend traffic, things maybe more involved. On one hand, city has virtually endless traffic source capacity. So widening would be negated by redistributed traffic from other destinations - Poconos and what not, as well as extra travellers.
The other aspect is status of Catskills and Adirondack. They are natural conservation, rather than recreational parks, and many popular destinations are running at and above capacity.
People are actually forced to leave when there is no parking.
A first result from Google search regarding the issue:
https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2021/04/01/adirondacks-registration-parking-lot-permit-pass-required-popular-hikes-this-year/7058308002/

Makes you wonder who gets to make that determination of whether a park is conservation or recreation and how on Earth they think they can keep the two purposes exclusive from one another.  Seems quixotic all around.

I am all for crowd controls -- even using lotteries and quotas and the like to keep them down.  The Kaaterskill Falls area is getting trashed by overwhelming crowds, for just one known example.  The ADK helps with managing Adirondack Park, but I don't know their involvement with the Catskills.  I'd be surprised if they or a counterpart wasn't in the Catskills.  Then again, the Catskills had a network of private resorts, maybe their interests filled that role?

I've been worried about the declining etiquette amongst hikers in the woods.  Hikers trampling this and that or blasting music out of Bluetooth speakers (modern say boom boxes).  I don't think we have the resources to protect nature from ourselves and training new generations seems to be failing (not that older generations are perfect).

Still, despite the way Adirondack and Catskill Parks were established, managing them like any other natural park system to ensure the natural resources aren't destroyed seems obvious to me.

Adirondack role may be defined by NYS constitution as "forever wild" - with lots of amendments and fine print.
And Catskills resorts were a bit different, with people more confined to resort area - not walking all over the forest. Besides, large areas of Catskills are now bought out by NYC to protect water sources from human activities.

That's a very oversimplified view, especially of Adirondack Park, where forever wild only pertains to public lands within the Blue Line while the APC is heavily involved with all the land within the Blue Line.  Management of land within the Blue Line has definitely evolved over the decades and become more and more complicated than the simple forever wild statement in the Constitution.

Sure, there are the reservoirs in the Catskills and the resorts only covering part of the area.  My point was that the remaining resorts (they've been declining with some very notable major closures over the last 20 years) may still be a significant lobbyist group.  You just don't hear about a "Catskill Park Commission" like you do the APC or hear about a Catskill Mountain Club like you do the ADK.  Both reserves are being overrun, but it really does seem like the Daks have more resources and organization to be brought to bear.

[kalvado]

That's a very oversimplified view, especially of Adirondack Park, where forever wild only pertains to public lands within the Blue Line while the APC is heavily involved with all the land within the Blue Line.  Management of land within the Blue Line has definitely evolved over the decades and become more and more complicated than the simple forever wild statement in the Constitution.

Sure, there are the reservoirs in the Catskills and the resorts only covering part of the area.  My point was that the remaining resorts (they've been declining with some very notable major closures over the last 20 years) may still be a significant lobbyist group.  You just don't hear about a "Catskill Park Commission" like you do the APC or hear about a Catskill Mountain Club like you do the ADK.  Both reserves are being overrun, but it really does seem like the Daks have more resources and organization to be brought to bear.

Well, in the context of Thruway widening, where this discussion have started  - I am pretty sure throttling of weekend traffic will be discussed as well.
My understanding of Thruway movements, though, is that
Unlike I-90 portion of Thruway, which connects New England and Midwest, hence has significant through traffic, I87 part is sort of dead end. There is not a lot of weekday business traffic between Albany and NYC or through traffic to Montreal. Amtrak and Greyhound take lots of passenger traffic off the highway. I believe  minimum Thruway count in Catskills is below 10k daily. New England, WNY and Midwest traffic to NYC has options of I-81 and 80 9n west side, 94, 91, 95 east, and few reasons to detour through Albany.
So I would bet on I-90 Thruway getting more attention if any attention and money would be out there.

[empirestate]

My experience with NY drivers is that it isn't just the "city folk" who don't understand KRETP.  The whole state as a general rule ignores it.

It's worse than it used to be (which I theorize is related to the increasing hands-off philosophy of driving), but still generally OK as long as there are only two lanes.

Meh.  I don't know.  There's a lot of people who pass a line of cars and they pass them slower than you're going, but I don't consider that LLB-ing since they're at least passing people.

No one beats Ohioans when it comes to camping out in the left lane "just because."

Yeah, I haven't noticed any issue with the left lane especially, it really is the middle. (And that isn't especially NY-centric, either, it's just how people drive generally.)

I am all for crowd controls -- even using lotteries and quotas and the like to keep them down.  The Kaaterskill Falls area is getting trashed by overwhelming crowds, for just one known example.

Bashbish Falls is another. At this point the falls is essentially closed to the public, which is not the right solution. But the status quo of being completely overrun and trashed was also not the right solution. I don't know what is the right solution, because the problem there is as much compliance as it is volume of visitors. One idea would be to require some kind of permit to use these areas–kind of like requiring a safe boating course to use a certain waterway. But you'd have to make it free and universally available, which adds to the cost.

[vdeane]

I wouldn't be surprised if middle lane camping is a contributing factor to speed limits in the northeast being so low.  I was talking with someone about speed limits a while back, and at one point she said "I wouldn't want the speed limit on I-787 raised [from 55] because then I couldn't just go 60 in the middle lane".

Regarding traffic counts on the Thruway, it doesn't get below 10k.  For the Thruway portion of I-87 north of exit 11:
-11-12: 122k
-12-13: 132k
-13-14: 134k
-14-14A: 138k
-14A-14B: 101k
-14B-15: 92k
-15-16: 84k
-16-17: 50k
-17-18: 40k
-18-19: 40k
-19-20: 38k
-20-21: 33k
-21-21B: 38k
-21B-21A: 43k
-21A-22: 54k
-22-23: 51k
-23-24: 57k

[webny99]

This becomes even more magnified when city folk who don't understand KRETP decide they want to clog the left lane as well.

My experience with NY drivers is that it isn't just the "city folk" who don't understand KRETP.  The whole state as a general rule ignores it.

I still think it's mostly faster traffic that ignores KRETP. You rarely encounter traffic going at or below speed in the left lane and refusing to move left.

(The one big exception is left exits, where people tend to move left miles earlier than necessary, causing traffic to flow past on the right.)

[empirestate]

I still think it's mostly faster traffic that ignores KRETP. You rarely encounter traffic going at or below speed in the left lane and refusing to move left.

True as pertains to the left lane. In the middle, however, this is pretty much the rule (at least if you replace "speed limit" with "prevailing speed").

[webny99]

I wouldn't be surprised if middle lane camping is a contributing factor to speed limits in the northeast being so low.  I was talking with someone about speed limits a while back, and at one point she said "I wouldn't want the speed limit on I-787 raised [from 55] because then I couldn't just go 60 in the middle lane".

It's definitely a factor in the right lane being used as a secondary passing lane. You almost expect the slow traffic to be in the middle, so it ironically messes up the flow when someone slow is on the right as they should be!

Rural freeways with six lanes are also almost non-existent, which creates a mindset of "six lanes = urban = very busy with frequent exits" leading to middle lane camping on almost all six lane freeways. The rural four-lane freeways are much better when it comes to KRETP adherence.

Regarding traffic counts on the Thruway, it doesn't get below 10k.  For the Thruway portion of I-87 north of exit 11:
-11-12: 122k
-12-13: 132k
-13-14: 134k
-14-14A: 138k
-14A-14B: 101k
-14B-15: 92k
-15-16: 84k
-16-17: 50k
-17-18: 40k
-18-19: 40k
-19-20: 38k
-20-21: 33k
-21-21B: 38k
-21B-21A: 43k
-21A-22: 54k
-22-23: 51k
-23-24: 57k

Yeah, I don't see how any portion of the Thruway south of Albany would ever be below 10k. You'd have to figure at least 20k even on a winter weekday, and closer to 50-60k on the busiest travel days/weekends.

These figures support my thought that the top priorities for widening should be 16 to 17 and 21A to 23.

[webny99]

I still think it's mostly faster traffic that ignores KRETP. You rarely encounter traffic going at or below speed in the left lane and refusing to move left.

True as pertains to the left lane. In the middle, however, this is pretty much the rule (at least if you replace "speed limit" with "prevailing speed").

Yes, and I think this is partly due to six+ lanes being strongly associated with urban areas (see the first part of my post above).

[kalvado]

I wouldn't be surprised if middle lane camping is a contributing factor to speed limits in the northeast being so low.  I was talking with someone about speed limits a while back, and at one point she said "I wouldn't want the speed limit on I-787 raised [from 55] because then I couldn't just go 60 in the middle lane".

It's definitely a factor in the right lane being used as a secondary passing lane. You almost expect the slow traffic to be in the middle, so it ironically messes up the flow when someone slow is on the right as they should be!

Rural freeways with six lanes are also almost non-existent, which creates a mindset of "six lanes = urban = very busy with frequent exits" leading to middle lane camping on almost all six lane freeways. The rural four-lane freeways are much better when it comes to KRETP adherence.

Regarding traffic counts on the Thruway, it doesn't get below 10k.  For the Thruway portion of I-87 north of exit 11:
-11-12: 122k
-12-13: 132k
-13-14: 134k
-14-14A: 138k
-14A-14B: 101k
-14B-15: 92k
-15-16: 84k
-16-17: 50k
-17-18: 40k
-18-19: 40k
-19-20: 38k
-20-21: 33k
-21-21B: 38k
-21B-21A: 43k
-21A-22: 54k
-22-23: 51k
-23-24: 57k

Yeah, I don't see how any portion of the Thruway south of Albany would ever be below 10k. You'd have to figure at least 20k even on a winter weekday, and closer to 50-60k on the busiest travel days/weekends.

These figures support my thought that the top priorities for widening should be 16 to 17 and 21A to 23.

I really wonder why did I remember below 10k
Yet, these numbers still don't really support 3 lanes throughout at normal conditions. Suburban commute is a whole different story
And I doubt there is  a real potential for growth in 21- 22-23 area, terrain doesn't allow for significant development.

[lstone19]

It's definitely a factor in the right lane being used as a secondary passing lane. You almost expect the slow traffic to be in the middle, so it ironically messes up the flow when someone slow is on the right as they should be!

Rural freeways with six lanes are also almost non-existent, which creates a mindset of "six lanes = urban = very busy with frequent exits" leading to middle lane camping on almost all six lane freeways. The rural four-lane freeways are much better when it comes to KRETP adherence.

What I find bizarre are the people who seem to prefer to pass on the right. Far too frequently, I'll move from the right lane to the middle lane with the left lane open (either well in advance of a pass since the left lane is open or due to an interchange where I can see entering traffic coming down the ramp) only to have someone charge up behind me and then pass me on the right even though the left lane is open.


iPad

[Rothman]

This becomes even more magnified when city folk who don't understand KRETP decide they want to clog the left lane as well.

My experience with NY drivers is that it isn't just the "city folk" who don't understand KRETP.  The whole state as a general rule ignores it.

I still think it's mostly faster traffic that ignores KRETP. You rarely encounter traffic going at or below speed in the left lane and refusing to move left.

(The one big exception is left exits, where people tend to move left miles earlier than necessary, causing traffic to flow past on the right.)

The left exit for Exit 24 (I-90/I-87) is a major cause for LLB-ing all the way back to I-890.  It's frustrating.

[lstone19]

The left exit for Exit 24 (I-90/I-87) is a major cause for LLB-ing all the way back to I-890.  It's frustrating.

You mean where the Thruway exits I-90 to the right? I always thought the Thruway designed it that way since the major flow was to I-90 with only a secondary flow remaining on the Thruway. But looking at it on Google Earth, it appears they then blew it by adding the "exit"  lane on the left rather than on the right.


iPad

[kalvado]

It's definitely a factor in the right lane being used as a secondary passing lane. You almost expect the slow traffic to be in the middle, so it ironically messes up the flow when someone slow is on the right as they should be!

Rural freeways with six lanes are also almost non-existent, which creates a mindset of "six lanes = urban = very busy with frequent exits" leading to middle lane camping on almost all six lane freeways. The rural four-lane freeways are much better when it comes to KRETP adherence.

What I find bizarre are the people who seem to prefer to pass on the right. Far too frequently, I'll move from the right lane to the middle lane with the left lane open (either well in advance of a pass since the left lane is open or due to an interchange where I can see entering traffic coming down the ramp) only to have someone charge up behind me and then pass me on the right even though the left lane is open.


iPad

Which is perfectly legal, at least in most states

[lstone19]

What I find bizarre are the people who seem to prefer to pass on the right. Far too frequently, I'll move from the right lane to the middle lane with the left lane open (either well in advance of a pass since the left lane is open or due to an interchange where I can see entering traffic coming down the ramp) only to have someone charge up behind me and then pass me on the right even though the left lane is open.


iPad

Which is perfectly legal, at least in most states

It may be legal but at least in my opinion, passing on the right is always more dangerous than passing on the left. Plus, as I said above, I left the right lane for safety reasons (either gaining on another vehicle in the right lane or merging traffic ahead) so even more reason why a pass on the right in that situation is more dangerous than a pass on the left.


iPad

[empirestate]

Which is perfectly legal, at least in most states

Which part, passing on the right or "charging up behind me"?

But you're right, there's no law against passing on the right per se. And many drivers may have the common mindset that if one has the right to do something, it is therefore the right thing to do. Although I tend to think that's a rather deeper thought process than they're going through... :-)

It may be legal but at least in my opinion, passing on the right is always more dangerous than passing on the left. Plus, as I said above, I left the right lane for safety reasons (either gaining on another vehicle in the right lane or merging traffic ahead) so even more reason why a pass on the right in that situation is more dangerous than a pass on the left.

And perhaps more to the point, passing on two different sides of a line of traffic is more dangerous than everyone passing to the same side. The more that another motorist's actions can be predicted based on a shared set of expectations, the less chance there will be for conflict.

[webny99]

The left exit for Exit 24 (I-90/I-87) is a major cause for LLB-ing all the way back to I-890.  It's frustrating.

You mean where the Thruway exits I-90 to the right? I always thought the Thruway designed it that way since the major flow was to I-90 with only a secondary flow remaining on the Thruway. But looking at it on Google Earth, it appears they then blew it by adding the "exit"  lane on the left rather than on the right.

As a general rule, option lanes are better than added lanes for that very reason. No matter which side the extra lane opens on, slow traffic tends to collects in that single lane until the new lane opens. Option lanes provide a lot more flexibility for all traffic.