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Right Idea, Wrong Sign

Started by vtk, April 01, 2015, 12:16:16 AM

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jakeroot

Quote from: roadfro on May 02, 2015, 08:16:55 PM
The example you gave is a bit backward, in that it implies you should be breaking the limit before the new higher limit takes effect. The other way around works though and makes sense: In a 40 going down to 30, you should be at 30 by the time you hit the sign.

I don't remember them drawing a line between a raising or lowering speed limit, but I'm sure you are correct. It was a few years ago.

Quote from: signalman on May 02, 2015, 10:28:37 PM
Hell, some drivers are annoyed by getting stuck behind someone going the speed limit.

Driver's who don't drive like everyone else present an inherent danger to other drivers.


signalman

Quote from: jakeroot on May 02, 2015, 11:02:40 PM
Driver's who don't drive like everyone else present an inherent danger to other drivers.
I never said that traveling below the speed limit is not a potential hazard.  I was just making a point that one isn't required to do so.  Not everyone drives the same nor travels at the same speed.  It is a driver's responsibility to drive safely and be accommodating to others.  Driving is a privilege, not a right.  Still, there is a calculated risk every time someone gets behind the wheel.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: jakeroot on May 02, 2015, 07:34:31 PM
Quote from: roadfro on May 02, 2015, 12:20:07 AM
What I learned is that a speed limit does not go into effect until you pass the plane of the actual sign.

I was taught at driving school to go the speed indicated on the sign at the point you reach it. So, if you're in a 30 mph-zone, and you come upon a sign indicating a 40 mph-zone, you should be at 40 when you hit that sign.

That does appear to be adverse to much of what I've read online. Though, the educators at my school are/were former police, so I'm tempted to believe what they say.

I wasn't there to overhear that conversation, but i would actually want to hear that from a judge, not a cop. Unless you are familiar with the route, how do you know the speed limit will increase? And what would constitute a distance at which you could start exceeding the speed limit of the current zone you are in?

Quote from: signalman on May 02, 2015, 11:13:46 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 02, 2015, 11:02:40 PM
Driver's who don't drive like everyone else present an inherent danger to other drivers.
I never said that traveling below the speed limit is not a potential hazard.  I was just making a point that one isn't required to do so.  Not everyone drives the same nor travels at the same speed.  It is a driver's responsibility to drive safely and be accommodating to others.  Driving is a privilege, not a right.  Still, there is a calculated risk every time someone gets behind the wheel.

Unless you have the ability to drive exactly at the limit (ie: 40.0 in a 40, not 40.1, not 41), then you should be driving below the limit.

jakeroot

Quote from: signalman on May 02, 2015, 11:13:46 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 02, 2015, 11:02:40 PM
Driver's who don't drive like everyone else present an inherent danger to other drivers.

I never said that traveling below the speed limit is not a potential hazard.  I was just making a point that one isn't required to do so.  Not everyone drives the same nor travels at the same speed.  It is a driver's responsibility to drive safely and be accommodating to others.  Driving is a privilege, not a right.  Still, there is a calculated risk every time someone gets behind the wheel.

I was responding to your point that people get annoyed by drivers going the speed limit, by saying that drivers get angry because drivers going the speed limit are presenting a risk to the 85th percentile (which speeds limits should reflect but often do not).

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 02, 2015, 11:37:03 PM
I wasn't there to overhear that conversation, but i would actually want to hear that from a judge, not a cop. Unless you are familiar with the route, how do you know the speed limit will increase? And what would constitute a distance at which you could start exceeding the speed limit of the current zone you are in?

I've wondered that since the day I heard it. Even in like school zones, they say to be going the normal speed limit by the time the zone ends. Trust me, I'm completely baffled. I'm gonna stop in and talk to them again some day.

vdeane

A guy I knew during my internship said that he once got pulled over by a cop sitting right at the sign, pulling over people who start accelerating before the sign.  The embarrassing twist was that the guy was wearing nothing but his underwear when he was pulled over (because it was 80 degrees out and he didn't expect to be pulled over, he said).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

SignGeek101

A standard directional arrow should be used here, not a one way arrow (not going to even mention the lazy patch over the sign).

http://goo.gl/maps/LH9Sq

Scott5114

Quote from: J N Winkler on April 24, 2015, 01:46:12 AM
I don't remember offhand whether "Do Not Pass" is used in workzones with head-to-head traffic where one half of a divided highway is closed, but in that context it is arguably redundant (though its use may be a legal requirement) because KDOT requires its contractors to use channel delineators to prevent passing.

It is (the use of the sign in this context is what I remember, coming from workzones reconstructing free I-35 in the late 90s). I seem to recall the delineators being placed far enough apart that someone could conceivably squeeze through to attempt an ill-advised pass, although such work zones incorporate double-yellow lines as well, so legally the signs are redundant to the stripes anyway.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

yakra

Quote from: spooky on April 03, 2015, 10:18:51 AM
Saw an intersection like that where the stop sign was mounted on the opposite side of the intersection.

Sucks for the older driver at night who maybe can't see what's ahead of them very well, but knows they are supposed to stop adjacent to the stop sign.
Or how about this stroke of jeenyus?
https://www.google.com/lochp?ie=UTF8&t=m&vpsrc=0&layer=c&cbll=43.658307,-70.262933&panoid=J7EDgVneR2VUiPQlC4x3Gg&cbp=11,92.63,,1,1.17&ll=43.658307,-70.262933&spn=0.002554,0.009559&z=17
Note the placement of the stop line. Stop there, and you've already cleared the intersection. If you have a long enough vehicle (anything), you're probably still *blocking* the intersection a bit too. (I doubt I'll ever get bored enough, but if I do I might wander down there with a tape measure...)
It's `cuz of things like this that I (frequently) say: "if I ever meet our city traffic engineer, I will take away his crayons."

Quote from: kphoger on April 03, 2015, 05:27:33 PM
My favorite one, though, is from Herrin, IL, but it appears to have been removed. It was a dead end street, and at the end of the street was a STOP sign, dead center at the terminus.
Ayuh. Portland has these too:
https://www.google.com/lochp?ie=UTF8&t=m&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=43.661008,-70.282986&panoid=HLQEHSqbho_d5PtKvE6f0A&cbp=11,240.3,,0,11.41&ll=43.661011,-70.282996&spn=0.005107,0.019119&z=16
"Officer, I'm always careful to drive the speed limit no matter where I am and that's what I was doin'." Said "No, you weren't," she said, "Yes, I was." He said, "Madam, I just clocked you at 22 MPH," and she said "That's the speed limit," he said "No ma'am, that's the route numbah!"  - Gary Crocker

HTM Duke

Quote from: yakra on May 18, 2015, 12:51:46 AM
Quote from: spooky on April 03, 2015, 10:18:51 AM
Saw an intersection like that where the stop sign was mounted on the opposite side of the intersection.

Sucks for the older driver at night who maybe can't see what's ahead of them very well, but knows they are supposed to stop adjacent to the stop sign.
Or how about this stroke of jeenyus?
https://www.google.com/lochp?ie=UTF8&t=m&vpsrc=0&layer=c&cbll=43.658307,-70.262933&panoid=J7EDgVneR2VUiPQlC4x3Gg&cbp=11,92.63,,1,1.17&ll=43.658307,-70.262933&spn=0.002554,0.009559&z=17
Note the placement of the stop line. Stop there, and you've already cleared the intersection. If you have a long enough vehicle (anything), you're probably still *blocking* the intersection a bit too. (I doubt I'll ever get bored enough, but if I do I might wander down there with a tape measure...)
It's `cuz of things like this that I (frequently) say: "if I ever meet our city traffic engineer, I will take away his crayons."
Said engineer should have started with STOP FOR PEDS IN X-WALK signage first, then used other measures as needed.

Here's a similar setup in DC:
https://www.google.com/lochp?ie=UTF8&t=m&vpsrc=0&layer=c&cbll=43.658307,-70.262933&panoid=J7EDgVneR2VUiPQlC4x3Gg&cbp=11,92.63,,1,1.17&ll=43.658307,-70.262933&spn=0.002554,0.009559&z=17
This one's really fun after Washington Nationals games, since traffic that's parked in lots nearby either don't see the sign, or don't care (betting on the latter), and thus turn right without stopping.


Given the problems with drivers trying to turn right onto Key Bridge from I-66 and pedestrians and cyclists trying to cross at the same time, Arlington created a brief no turn on red phase utilizing an electric no right turn sign as an interim measure.  Consider that it only operates for about 10 seconds a cycle (with an advance walk signal), I can see some drivers being confused about this.  Perhaps not the best use of such a sign, but it would probably prove beneficial for that sign to be active before traffic on N Lynn St is stopped so that drivers on the off-ramp don't think they have an imminent green.



VDOT changed this sign (merge from US-50/Gallows Rd to I-495 north) after I reported it, but continues to insist that this sign (merge from Gallows Rd north to I-495 south) is correct.  I've pointed out the LANE ENDS MERGE RIGHT signs that immediately follow, and suggested that they were studying the wrong ramp (US-50 to I-495 south), but to no avail.


A couple of honorary examples (think right sign, wrong idea how to use it).
At the I-495/US-50 interchange, VDOT posted the merge sign for the on-ramp from US-50 west after rotating it 45 degrees counter-clockwise:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.863547,-77.220928,3a,49.4y,185.33h,87.33t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1stysOSeWltxR5XMaXyolYFg!2e0!5s20141001T000000

Similar situation in Maryland, I-495 north to westbound Clara Barton Pkwy:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.974457,-77.177214,3a,18.6y,329.86h,84.45t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sYFtUf5lGhmS28pVlzJS5ag!2e0!5s20140901T000000
List of routes: Traveled | Clinched

roadfro

Quote from: HTM Duke on May 18, 2015, 04:20:56 AM
VDOT changed this sign (merge from US-50/Gallows Rd to I-495 north) after I reported it, but continues to insist that this sign (merge from Gallows Rd north to I-495 south) is correct.  I've pointed out the LANE ENDS MERGE RIGHT signs that immediately follow, and suggested that they were studying the wrong ramp (US-50 to I-495 south), but to no avail.


A couple of honorary examples (think right sign, wrong idea how to use it).
At the I-495/US-50 interchange, VDOT posted the merge sign for the on-ramp from US-50 west after rotating it 45 degrees counter-clockwise:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.863547,-77.220928,3a,49.4y,185.33h,87.33t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1stysOSeWltxR5XMaXyolYFg!2e0!5s20141001T000000

For part one... I think there is some ambiguity on how to use the "merge ahead" sign versus the "added lane ahead" sign. I've seen a couple DOTs use it different ways. Generally though, if the ramp joins the freeway and doesn't merge immediately, and a lane exists for 500+ feet, then the "added lane" sign seems appropriate, even if it ends in short order.

In part two, they have used the right signs...(the variants that are made to display conditions from the ramp perspective, as opposed to the original signs displaying the situation from the freeway perspective, which were introduced in the 2009 MUTCD). They simply just hung incorrectly.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

freebrickproductions

It's all fun & games until someone summons Cthulhu and brings about the end of the world.

I also collect traffic lights, road signs, fans, and railroad crossing equipment.

(They/Them)

freebrickproductions

Saw this in Auburn, AL at the beginning of a closed section of road:
Traffic Circle Sign on a Construction Barrier by freebrickproductions, on Flickr

It makes sense considering that the traffic will have to turn around because of the road being closed, but they didn't provide the traffic circle to do it in. :spin:
It's all fun & games until someone summons Cthulhu and brings about the end of the world.

I also collect traffic lights, road signs, fans, and railroad crossing equipment.

(They/Them)

briantroutman

This is posted currently in Larkspur, CA. This hairpin ramp connects to a pedestrian/bicycle overpass that's still under construction but not open in any senseā€“to local, through, or any other form of "traffic" .


SignGeek101


roadfro

^ I've seen some similar applications of chevrons at the end of the road, where the big arrow should be used instead. Don't have an example off hand, but they were using four chevrons right next to each other, two pointing left and two pointing right.

In addition with that link, there's a old school black-on-white "3-WAY" plaque under the stop sign.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

jakeroot

Quote from: roadfro on October 11, 2015, 08:40:11 PM
In addition with that link, there's a old school black-on-white "3-WAY" plaque under the stop sign.

That's the standard plaque in BC. But, it is old -- it does seem to use the old BC font, as opposed to the Clearview "DO NOT ENTER" just behind the camera car.

SignGeek101

#66
Quote from: jakeroot on October 11, 2015, 08:50:30 PM
Quote from: roadfro on October 11, 2015, 08:40:11 PM
In addition with that link, there's a old school black-on-white "3-WAY" plaque under the stop sign.

That's the standard plaque in BC. But, it is old -- it does seem to use the old BC font, as opposed to the Clearview "DO NOT ENTER" just behind the camera car.

The stop sign across the street is also in Clearview, and has a Helvetica '3 way' sign below it.

Not to mention, the other Stop sign (and BGS behind link) is in classic font.

An intersection with a Classic BC Font, FHWA, and Clearview stop signs!

andrepoiy

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.8527138,-79.5221743,3a,42.1y,142.79h,80.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6hAY-hACpg_e4LxUZE7xvA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This sign is supposed to be used to denote which ways you can turn from a lane. The chevron sign is supposed to be used to denote which way the road is in case there's an obstruction (for example, you use it when there's a traffic island).

Revive 755



bcroadguy


jakeroot

Quote from: bcroadguy on January 03, 2020, 04:16:07 AM
I think this is a pretty good example of right idea, wrong sign

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.443862,-123.5266725,3a,25.2y,264.24h,87.51t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-MOvRIXpyU6KqyHIELrEjw!2e0!5s20180501T000000!7i13312!8i6656

I would say that's the textbook definition of "right idea, wrong sign".

Such a good example, in fact, that it took me several moments to realize the issue.

kphoger

Quote from: jakeroot on January 03, 2020, 05:19:19 PM

Quote from: bcroadguy on January 03, 2020, 04:16:07 AM
I think this is a pretty good example of right idea, wrong sign

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.443862,-123.5266725,3a,25.2y,264.24h,87.51t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-MOvRIXpyU6KqyHIELrEjw!2e0!5s20180501T000000!7i13312!8i6656

I would say that's the textbook definition of "right idea, wrong sign".

Such a good example, in fact, that it took me several moments to realize the issue.

Yes.  It's like the ones in Anson, TX, which I had driven past a handful of times but never noticed as wrong until someone on this forum pointed them out.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

ilpt4u

Quote from: bcroadguy on January 03, 2020, 04:16:07 AM
I think this is a pretty good example of right idea, wrong sign

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.443862,-123.5266725,3a,25.2y,264.24h,87.51t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-MOvRIXpyU6KqyHIELrEjw!2e0!5s20180501T000000!7i13312!8i6656
What sign would you rather have there? "Keep Right" Black/White Sign?

I guess that yellow sign implies a Divided Highway

kphoger's examples look like "Traffic Circle" signs would be more appropriate, or Right Turn Only

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: ilpt4u on January 03, 2020, 09:23:13 PM
What sign would you rather have there? "Keep Right" Black/White Sign?

I guess that yellow sign implies a Divided Highway

Well, the yellow sign is for the end of a divided highway. In the instance in question, it's been placed upside down at the beginning of one.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)



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