Unenforceable signs due to jurisdictional boundaries

[kalvado]

My contribution would be speed limits in between customs controls along the US-Mexican border.

I suspect that can be enforced as aggressive behavior at security installation, and you would LOVE to get just a fine once that happens 

[kphoger]

So are y'all suggesting that CBP and Mexican military officers are running radar?

[kalvado]

So are y'all suggesting that CBP and Mexican military officers are running radar?

No, but they carry guns. And if they assume you want to ram into something - or someone....

[yand]

Speed limits are not set for safety by the state of the art of research on accident data.  The old mantra that "speed kills" is really obsolete.  We now know that the class of facility and a whole host of other factors come into play.  Add actual design speeds of interstate highways and speed limits as set lack all the more founding.

Yand's advocacy for "nestoring" stems from a need for control for control's sake rather than an actual safety need.

I am all for adjusting the speed limit where the science supports it. The fact that you use the phrase "design speed" means that you understand there are speeds above which any section of road is not designed for, hence the necessity of a speed limit. What if a cop were "nestoring" at the design speed? Would you be for it then?

Nobody should have to read the 2002 memorandum issued by the X County PD for enforcement guidelines to find out that the effective (enforced) speed limit for roads through this particular 12 mile jurisdiction is actually posted + 10mph, but the 2012 guidelines for the next county over says speed limit +15. It is completely untransparent and unfair for traffic signs to not say what they mean.

People who break the law also make driving harder for people trying to follow the law, especially during eg. merging where people creating huge speed differentials by deviating from the legal speed of traffic cause safety issues. The more people who follow the speed limit, the less resistance there will be to raising it.

[odditude]

A couple days ago I saw a cop car from a county a couple hours away. If he stops someone for speeding, who gets the money - his county since he made the stop, or the county where he physically made the stop?

It would be the county where the stop is made.

That said, most likely the cop was there for training, a court case or other issue. He wants nothing to do with a traffic stop. He just wants to get to where he's going, or wants to get home.

I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often. Sometimes they are sitting in the right lane going the speed limit because of policy. Rush hour commuters are wise to this...and we are passing just like they're any other vehicle. Others are going must faster. Again, no issues worrying about them.

Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.

My daily driver is a white Charger.  And as so many unmarked - or half-marked - police cruisers are white Chargers here, some other drivers slow down when they see my car.  On a freeway, it's funny, but on a small road when I can't pass the slow one, it turns to be annoying.

my old car was a white Hyundai Elantra with a deflector on the sunroof. people slowed down in front of me ALL THE TIME - at a glance, any white car behind you with a horizontal something on the roof reads as "police car."

[MNHighwayMan]

If a cop is driving the speed limit and "slowing down" traffic, good. If a cop wants to speed but is "inconvenienced" by people driving the speed limit due to their presence, also good.

Mmmm, boots.

[yand]

If a cop is driving the speed limit and "slowing down" traffic, good. If a cop wants to speed but is "inconvenienced" by people driving the speed limit due to their presence, also good.

Mmmm, boots.

As opposed to a system where everyone breaks the law, giving cops legal cause to pull over anyone they don't like? 

[MNHighwayMan]

I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.

[sprjus4]

I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.

Notably in many states with artificially low 55 mph or 60 mph speed limits on rural divided highways solely due to functional class limiting any roads without full control of access to those speeds, that engineering wise could easily handle speed limits between 65 mph and 70 mph.

[Mark68]

I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.

Well no. They are designed for revenue enhancement.

[michravera]

Imagine that there's a no turn on red sign at a signal that straddles the state line. If you turn right on red, you will cross the state line immediately. Since federal police don't do traffic enforcement, nobody can stop you.

Are there any examples of this or similar unenforceable signs?

California has a treaty with neighboring states allowing them to enforce our laws (and vice-versa, I think).

[yand]

I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.

All I'm saying is, whether current speed limits are arbitrary or not, the current system where breaking the law is normalized and drivers are pressured into rolling the dice on being pulled over, is far more boot-licky than taking speed limit signs at face value.

[kalvado]

I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.

All I'm saying is, whether current speed limits are arbitrary or not, the current system where breaking the law is normalized and drivers are pressured into rolling the dice on being pulled over, is far more boot-licky than taking speed limit signs at face value.

Looks like this is drifting very much off-topic. Do we want mods to split threads, rename the thread, or do something else?..

[kphoger]

I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.

What's your solution?  A study on every mile of road in the nation?

[RobbieL2415]

The Revised Code of Washington (State) has a specific section for variable limits:

(5) Any altered limit established as hereinbefore authorized shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected. Such maximum speed limit may be declared to be effective at all times or at such times as are indicated upon such signs; and differing limits may be established for different times of day, different types of vehicles, varying weather conditions, and other factors bearing on safe speeds, which shall be effective when posted upon appropriate fixed or variable signs.

I can think of several stretches of freeway in Washington with completely digital speed limit signs (I-90, I-5, WA-520), so they would have to be enforceable. Not that it would matter, since the default limit for state highways is the default displayed limit.

That is one state out of 50.

[jakeroot]

The Revised Code of Washington (State) has a specific section for variable limits:

(5) Any altered limit established as hereinbefore authorized shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected. Such maximum speed limit may be declared to be effective at all times or at such times as are indicated upon such signs; and differing limits may be established for different times of day, different types of vehicles, varying weather conditions, and other factors bearing on safe speeds, which shall be effective when posted upon appropriate fixed or variable signs.

I can think of several stretches of freeway in Washington with completely digital speed limit signs (I-90, I-5, WA-520), so they would have to be enforceable. Not that it would matter, since the default limit for state highways is the default displayed limit.

That is one state out of 50.

Well sure. I guess my point is that, in states where variable limits are either common or even the norm in some areas, it's likely that they are codified to be legal. In states where maybe there's only one stretch, perhaps as a study, that may not necessarily be the case. Washington State has quite a lot of lane-miles of variable limit-controlled freeways, so it makes sense that they would be legally enforceable.

[MNHighwayMan]

I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.

What's your solution?  A study on every mile of road in the nation?

Every road was designed with a certain speed in mind. So why not use that?

I'm also not asking that every single mile be re-examined. Or that any mileage is re-examined, for that matter. Don't be putting words into my mouth.

[kphoger]

I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.

What's your solution?  A study on every mile of road in the nation?

Every road was designed with a certain speed in mind. So why not use that?

I'm also not asking that every single mile be re-examined. Or that any mileage is re-examined, for that matter. Don't be putting words into my mouth.

How else can it be determined which speed limits are arbitrary?  The only way to know would be to look up the design speed for each segment of highway, along with any subsequent engineering or traffic data studies.

[ErmineNotyours]

I-205 Bridge, Washington-Oregon.  Typical Oregon lowered 55 speed limit from Washington's 60 as soon as you get on the bridge, but we're still over dry land in Washington.  Since the bigger urban area is on the Oregon side, Oregon effectively maintains the bridge for Washington.  I guess by the time the cops catch up to you, you'll be in Oregon.  In practice, the Oregon drivers immediately slow down to 55, catching Washington drivers (me) off guard.

[kphoger]

I-205 Bridge, Washington-Oregon.  Typical Oregon lowered 55 speed limit from Washington's 60 as soon as you get on the bridge, but we're still over dry land in Washington.  Since the bigger urban area is on the Oregon side, Oregon effectively maintains the bridge for Washington.  I guess by the time the cops catch up to you, you'll be in Oregon.  In practice, the Oregon drivers immediately slow down to 55, catching Washington drivers (me) off guard.

As has been already stated up-thread, police generally have inter-agency agreements.  I'm sure the WA highway patrol could pull you over in Oregon if you were speeding in WA.  The bigger question, though, is this:  would there actually be a WA trooper on that stretch of road to begin with?

[jakeroot]

I-205 Bridge, Washington-Oregon.  Typical Oregon lowered 55 speed limit from Washington's 60 as soon as you get on the bridge, but we're still over dry land in Washington.  Since the bigger urban area is on the Oregon side, Oregon effectively maintains the bridge for Washington.  I guess by the time the cops catch up to you, you'll be in Oregon.  In practice, the Oregon drivers immediately slow down to 55, catching Washington drivers (me) off guard.

As has been already stated up-thread, police generally have inter-agency agreements.  I'm sure the WA highway patrol could pull you over in Oregon if you were speeding in WA.  The bigger question, though, is this:  would there actually be a WA trooper on that stretch of road to begin with?

It is a bit hard for me to believe that the trooper would have to lead with "Oregon says you can't go over 55...", even though yes, there are interagency agreements. Within a state seems more reasonable to me, than one state police, policing another state.

[kphoger]

Am I misunderstanding?  I thought the speed limit sign was in Washington.

[jakeroot]

Am I misunderstanding?  I thought the speed limit sign was in Washington.

Technically yes. But Oregon maintains the bridge, and I believe enforcement for speed along the bridge is performed by OSP

[kphoger]

So, then, Oregon can pull you over.

[jakeroot]

So, then, Oregon can pull you over.

Yeah...no? I'm not sure. Shit. The border itself should be the barrier between OSP and WSP, but I don't think it is. Honestly, I don't know what the situation is. I suspect WSP could still pull you over, as the northern section of the bridge is within WA's borders. But I don't think they actively patrol the bridge, leaving it to Oregon.

Hypothetically, if a Washington cop stopped you on the southbound bridge going 60 in a 55, he would be enforcing OR law with regards to limits (WA does not use 55 on interstates, only 60 or 70 except in variable zones). OR has to have posted the 55 limit, but the sign itself is within the WA border (alongside the excessive "HELMET REQUIRED" signs).

Frankly, I don't think interagency agreements include anything about regular speeding. Excessive speed? Sure. But like 10 over? Not worth the hassle. I doubt either WSP or OSP patrol this bridge because of the uncertainty.