New York City's Broadway being downgraded from through street to local street

[Pete from Boston]

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

And they say it's just a stereotype of Americans.

If you require each place you may transact business to set aside roughly 150 square feet of valuable land for you on the chance you might happen by, then they probably really don't want your business.

I don't know what kind of business you are in, but in any I've been in, there's a clear line beyond which it's accepted that needy customers can't be satisfied. 

[Rothman]

Then how will people get to the theaters, if no vehicles are allowed through there? Just had to throw it out there.

Now for the useful answer:

First of all, though it may be counterintuitive, not all Broadway theaters are on Broadway.  Making matters more confusing, Broadway theaters that are not on Broadway are not considered "Off-Broadway theaters."

But the answer to your question about those actually on Broadway, of course, is that people will get there like they get everywhere else in the city — they will walk. There are very few places now where drivers can park at their destination in the city and Broadway theaters are now and will continue to be yet another case of this.

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

Your loss.

[english si]

But the answer to your question about those actually on Broadway, of course, is that people will get there like they get everywhere else in the city — they will walk.

If only there was something to get them closer. Like some sort of underground moving pods that drop people off at stations. Oh wait!.

Of course people will walk, but they will also use the Subway. Maybe even cycle!

[Pete from Boston]

But the answer to your question about those actually on Broadway, of course, is that people will get there like they get everywhere else in the city — they will walk.

If only there was something to get them closer. Like some sort of underground moving pods that drop people off at stations. Oh wait!.

Of course people will walk, but they will also use the Subway. Maybe even cycle!

Walk from wherever their transportation mode of choice ends, was my point, which applies to your examples as well.

Funny, I was going to say people wouldn't want to get on a bike in clothes they'd wear to the theater, but then I realized this is 2015, and those clothes are probably sweatpants and flip-flops.

[xcellntbuy]

If I remember correctly, approximately 55% or more of driving age people who live in the City of New York do not own a car.  The great majority of transportation is by pedestrians walking, public transit such as subway, bus, ferry and train, plus private livery services such as taxi and limo.

[dgolub]

If I remember correctly, approximately 55% or more of driving age people who live in the City of New York do not own a car.  The great majority of transportation is by pedestrians walking, public transit such as subway, bus, ferry and train, plus private livery services such as taxi and limo.

Right, and those who do probably tend to cluster in areas like Staten Island, Riverdale, or the eastern areas of Queens that are much more suburban than the rest of the city.

[empirestate]

If I remember correctly, approximately 55% or more of driving age people who live in the City of New York do not own a car.  The great majority of transportation is by pedestrians walking, public transit such as subway, bus, ferry and train, plus private livery services such as taxi and limo.

On top of which, the majority of Broadway theatergoers are tourists, most of whom did not bring their vehicles with them on their NYC trip.


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[kkt]

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

I'm sure the Schubert Organization is crying into their champagne because you won't come to Broadway theatres.

Seriously, even if the theatres did provide parking, and even if it was free (ha!), you wouldn't want to deal with the traffic of driving into Manhattan.

[02 Park Ave]

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

I'm sure the Schubert Organization is crying into their champagne because you won't come to Broadway theatres.

Seriously, even if the theatres did provide parking, and even if it was free (ha!), you wouldn't want to deal with the traffic of driving into Manhattan.

I never said free.  I am saying that if these shops, theatres, concert halls, whatever want the business of individuals who prefer to travel in their private motorcars, they should accomodate parking.  If they don't, they can do without us.

On one hand there may be places or activities I would otherwise enjoy going to or doing, on the other hand I am never inconvienced.

[iBallasticwolf2]

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

I'm sure the Schubert Organization is crying into their champagne because you won't come to Broadway theatres.

Seriously, even if the theatres did provide parking, and even if it was free (ha!), you wouldn't want to deal with the traffic of driving into Manhattan.

Manhattan roads can get VERY crowded any time of daylight. It can be screwy trying to get around Manhattan in a car depending on time of day.

[Rothman]

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

I'm sure the Schubert Organization is crying into their champagne because you won't come to Broadway theatres.

Seriously, even if the theatres did provide parking, and even if it was free (ha!), you wouldn't want to deal with the traffic of driving into Manhattan.

Manhattan roads can get VERY crowded any time of daylight. It can be screwy trying to get around Manhattan in a car depending on time of day.

I've never had a real problem getting around Manhattan in the grid.  Just knowing where you're going and that it'll take some time'll get you through okay. 

However, I ventured below Houston once in a car and determined that would be the only time I'd ever do so.

[mariethefoxy]

Then how will people get to the theaters, if no vehicles are allowed through there? Just had to throw it out there.

Now for the useful answer:

First of all, though it may be counterintuitive, not all Broadway theaters are on Broadway.  Making matters more confusing, Broadway theaters that are not on Broadway are not considered "Off-Broadway theaters."

But the answer to your question about those actually on Broadway, of course, is that people will get there like they get everywhere else in the city — they will walk. There are very few places now where drivers can park at their destination in the city and Broadway theaters are now and will continue to be yet another case of this.

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

I tend to agree with that sentiment, since I can't stand public transport and prefer the privacy and comfort of my own car. The way I see it is theres nothing Manhattan has that I need that I cant find on Long Island, Westchester, or elsewhere in the suburbs.

[empirestate]

Then how will people get to the theaters, if no vehicles are allowed through there? Just had to throw it out there.

Now for the useful answer:

First of all, though it may be counterintuitive, not all Broadway theaters are on Broadway.  Making matters more confusing, Broadway theaters that are not on Broadway are not considered "Off-Broadway theaters."

But the answer to your question about those actually on Broadway, of course, is that people will get there like they get everywhere else in the city — they will walk. There are very few places now where drivers can park at their destination in the city and Broadway theaters are now and will continue to be yet another case of this.

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

I tend to agree with that sentiment, since I can't stand public transport and prefer the privacy and comfort of my own car. The way I see it is theres nothing Manhattan has that I need that I cant find on Long Island, Westchester, or elsewhere in the suburbs.

Which is fine, but that means Broadway theatre isn't a product you need, so the question of whether it's accessible by vehicles would be moot for you.


iPhone

[Rothman]

Then how will people get to the theaters, if no vehicles are allowed through there? Just had to throw it out there.

Now for the useful answer:

First of all, though it may be counterintuitive, not all Broadway theaters are on Broadway.  Making matters more confusing, Broadway theaters that are not on Broadway are not considered "Off-Broadway theaters."

But the answer to your question about those actually on Broadway, of course, is that people will get there like they get everywhere else in the city — they will walk. There are very few places now where drivers can park at their destination in the city and Broadway theaters are now and will continue to be yet another case of this.

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

I tend to agree with that sentiment, since I can't stand public transport and prefer the privacy and comfort of my own car. The way I see it is theres nothing Manhattan has that I need that I cant find on Long Island, Westchester, or elsewhere in the suburbs.

Which is fine, but that means Broadway theatre isn't a product you need, so the question of whether it's accessible by vehicles would be moot for you.


iPhone

True, but I can't help but think that such a sentiment would keep someone from experiencing something that they might actually enjoy (like a broadway show on Broadway).

[empirestate]

Then how will people get to the theaters, if no vehicles are allowed through there? Just had to throw it out there.

Now for the useful answer:

First of all, though it may be counterintuitive, not all Broadway theaters are on Broadway.  Making matters more confusing, Broadway theaters that are not on Broadway are not considered "Off-Broadway theaters."

But the answer to your question about those actually on Broadway, of course, is that people will get there like they get everywhere else in the city — they will walk. There are very few places now where drivers can park at their destination in the city and Broadway theaters are now and will continue to be yet another case of this.

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

I tend to agree with that sentiment, since I can't stand public transport and prefer the privacy and comfort of my own car. The way I see it is theres nothing Manhattan has that I need that I cant find on Long Island, Westchester, or elsewhere in the suburbs.

Which is fine, but that means Broadway theatre isn't a product you need, so the question of whether it's accessible by vehicles would be moot for you.


iPhone

True, but I can't help but think that such a sentiment would keep someone from experiencing something that they might actually enjoy (like a broadway show on Broadway).

There's that (and as someone directly involved with that industry, that's an important point to me), but there's also the aspect that it suggests a woefully incomplete viewpoint of, well, not only the world, but even the nation and state from which that viewpoint is being had. It's kind of like asking why we must press 1 to continue in English, from someone who's never been to the Bronx or Miami.

Don't get me wrong, I've had it myself with the frustrations of operating in NYC, and have moved upriver and become a commuter and homeowner, with two cars, a train ticket and a backyard, but I still have to appreciate and embrace the differences that make this country interesting.


iPhone

[jeffandnicole]

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

I'm sure the Schubert Organization is crying into their champagne because you won't come to Broadway theatres.

Seriously, even if the theatres did provide parking, and even if it was free (ha!), you wouldn't want to deal with the traffic of driving into Manhattan.

I never said free.  I am saying that if these shops, theatres, concert halls, whatever want the business of individuals who prefer to travel in their private motorcars, they should accomodate parking.  If they don't, they can do without us.

On one hand there may be places or activities I would otherwise enjoy going to or doing, on the other hand I am never inconvienced.

In some cases there are parking garages on the same block or valet parking directly in front of the theatre or business. You really don't have a far walk. In a city you can't just have a huge parking lot in front of a building and expect that parking to be available just for theatre goers.

It's not much different than going to, say, the Cherry Hill Mall, having to go into a generic entrance, then walking around to the stores you're shopping at.

Heck, it's not much different than going to a small town like Haddonfield, where you park on the street, feed the meter if necessary, and walk to the store you want to get to.

If you ever go to college, you're going to have to deal with things like not being able to park directly in front of the building your class is in.

[Duke87]

If I remember correctly, approximately 55% or more of driving age people who live in the City of New York do not own a car.  The great majority of transportation is by pedestrians walking, public transit such as subway, bus, ferry and train, plus private livery services such as taxi and limo.

Right, and those who do probably tend to cluster in areas like Staten Island, Riverdale, or the eastern areas of Queens that are much more suburban than the rest of the city.

It's actually a bit more nuanced than that. In addition to correlating inversely with density, car ownership rates also correlate directly with household income. There are a lot of quite poor people (by first world standards) in New York City. Many of them don't own a car because they can't afford one more than because they've decided they want a carless lifestyle.

[mrsman]

Looking at it as a "downgrade" is a failure to appreciate the whole picture. In Manhattan, most people do not get around by car. There are far more pedestrians than private automobiles and the changes to Broadway have made it more useful to the former. Nowhere is this more apparent than in Times Square, where now rather than the hordes of people being squeezed onto sidewalks that cannot fit them all, they are free to walk everywhere in the street. Still a very crowded place, but it is easier (and safer) to be a pedestrian there now than it was before the changes.

Consider as well the whole Braess' Paradox aspect of traffic. Adding roads does not necessarily improve system efficiency and removing them does not necessarily reduce it - indeed, both can in some cases do the opposite. Everywhere Broadway is open to cars and crosses an avenue, it results in a more complicated intersection which necessitates more signal phases and gives everyone a smaller share of the time. Everywhere it crosses a street, it results in another signal stopping crosstown traffic that can't be well coordinated since these things are always timed to favor north-south traffic. It is entirely reasonable that the loss of direct capacity from closing Broadway may be outweighed by the benefits to the streets and avenues it crosses, even if one looks strictly at motor vehicle traffic.

So honestly, I could get behind closing Broadway to cars the whole way between Union Square and Columbus Circle entirely. This would allow its signals with every street from 18th to 58th to be timed such that they coordinate with the signal at the nearest avenue, since there's no need to time signals up and down Broadway for pedestrian traffic flow. It would also give 5th Ave one less signal.  It could well result in a street network that's better for everyone.

This.  Agreed completely.

Exactly.  If one looks at closing Broadway with blinders on, it seems like a bad move.  But when you look at it from an aerial perspective and see that you come out with a true grid rather than a grid with some oddly angled road running thru it, you see how smooth the entire progression can become.

Where Broadway crossed the avenues there was such a problem with traffic.  By closing Broadway, traffic has greatly improved, like Duke said above, since we eliminate the 6-way intersections like Herald Square.


But Broadway is not closed completely from 14-59.  Instead it is open as a local street, so that storefront deliveries can still take place along most of the route.  But if you want to go southbound from 59th, Broadway in no longer an option.  Take 9th or 7th or 5th or any other southbound avenue.

[noelbotevera]

Looking at it as a "downgrade" is a failure to appreciate the whole picture. In Manhattan, most people do not get around by car. There are far more pedestrians than private automobiles and the changes to Broadway have made it more useful to the former. Nowhere is this more apparent than in Times Square, where now rather than the hordes of people being squeezed onto sidewalks that cannot fit them all, they are free to walk everywhere in the street. Still a very crowded place, but it is easier (and safer) to be a pedestrian there now than it was before the changes.

Consider as well the whole Braess' Paradox aspect of traffic. Adding roads does not necessarily improve system efficiency and removing them does not necessarily reduce it - indeed, both can in some cases do the opposite. Everywhere Broadway is open to cars and crosses an avenue, it results in a more complicated intersection which necessitates more signal phases and gives everyone a smaller share of the time. Everywhere it crosses a street, it results in another signal stopping crosstown traffic that can't be well coordinated since these things are always timed to favor north-south traffic. It is entirely reasonable that the loss of direct capacity from closing Broadway may be outweighed by the benefits to the streets and avenues it crosses, even if one looks strictly at motor vehicle traffic.

So honestly, I could get behind closing Broadway to cars the whole way between Union Square and Columbus Circle entirely. This would allow its signals with every street from 18th to 58th to be timed such that they coordinate with the signal at the nearest avenue, since there's no need to time signals up and down Broadway for pedestrian traffic flow. It would also give 5th Ave one less signal.  It could well result in a street network that's better for everyone.

This.  Agreed completely.

Exactly.  If one looks at closing Broadway with blinders on, it seems like a bad move.  But when you look at it from an aerial perspective and see that you come out with a true grid rather than a grid with some oddly angled road running thru it, you see how smooth the entire progression can become.

Where Broadway crossed the avenues there was such a problem with traffic.  By closing Broadway, traffic has greatly improved, like Duke said above, since we eliminate the 6-way intersections like Herald Square.


But Broadway is not closed completely from 14-59.  Instead it is open as a local street, so that storefront deliveries can still take place along most of the route.  But if you want to go southbound from 59th, Broadway in no longer an option.  Take 9th or 7th or 5th or any other southbound avenue.

Broadway can be a local street between Canal Street and 64th Street. At 65th Street, Broadway should be a through street, as it is your traffic alternative to NY 9A between 61st Street and the Yonkers line (Broadway becomes US 9 just south of the Yonkers line through the Bronx - Broadway ends at the Yonkers city line).  Note that I said 61st for NY 9A and 64th for Broadway - this is due to the curve Broadway does to parallel NY 9A.

Plus, just use 7th, 8th, and NY 9A where Broadway is a local street.

[Alps]

This whole thing made me look for an article to see what's going on. No, it's just roadman. So Broadway isn't downgraded. Yes, it's closed at key squares. All of this other nonsense is baseless.

[Pete from Boston]

This whole thing made me look for an article to see what's going on. No, it's just roadman. So Broadway isn't downgraded. Yes, it's closed at key squares. All of this other nonsense is baseless.

Outside of those squares it's significantly narrowed in a lot of places to accommodate segregated bike and turning lanes.  It's not a side street by any means, but it's not the street it was 10 years ago.

[empirestate]

This whole thing made me look for an article to see what's going on. No, it's just roadman. So Broadway isn't downgraded. Yes, it's closed at key squares. All of this other nonsense is baseless.

Outside of those squares it's significantly narrowed in a lot of places to accommodate segregated bike and turning lanes.  It's not a side street by any means, but it's not the street it was 10 years ago.

Put it this way: you can now cross Broadway against the light without having to look for traffic. (Well, people do that with any street, but with Broadway now you actually have decent odds.)


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[roadman65]

You really cannot say its a through street with key squares and parts of it being narrowed.  Like Pete from Boston is saying its not the street it was 10 years ago, and from me being around for over 50 years I can tell you its definitely true.  I remember when it was a good roadway southbound (with the exceptions of Times Square where you were defaulted onto Seventh Avenue and Worth Square where you were diverted to Fifth Avenue) where it was as good as the other avenues.

It had the same amount of lanes (or almost anyway, I never got out of my car or actually counted them unlike Alps who actually does and probably knows exactly how much paint is used nationwide to stripe all the nation's roads), but it was definitely just as good as any other avenue throughout all the years.

[NE2]

You really cannot say its a through street

It's a through street. Maybe not a through road.