I-475/US23 projects in Toledo

[Ellie]

Couldn't find an "Ohio notes" thread for some reason, so posting this separately. Saw that ODOT is apparently going to rebuild the interchange of I-475/US23 and US20A and widen the highway to three lanes extending south to US24. This will also be the first diverging diamond interchange in the Toledo area. https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2022/01/30/i475-interchange-project-plans-updates/stories/20220127137

[SkyPesos]

Couldn't find an "Ohio notes" thread for some reason

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=16419.0

[The Ghostbuster]

So this new interchange would be numbered Exit 5. I wonder why there wasn't an exit at this location before? It seems like a more worthy location for an interchange than the Salisbury Rd./W. Drussel Dr. interchange just to the north (which was added in 1989, according to Wikipedia).

[tigerwings]

Toledo Blade Paywall

I-475 exit 2 at Dixie highway is a diverging diamond. Maybe the 1st in Lucas County.

[SkyPesos]

So this new interchange would be numbered Exit 5. I wonder why there wasn't an exit at this location before? It seems like a more worthy location for an interchange than the Salisbury Rd./W. Drussel Dr. interchange just to the north (which was added in 1989, according to Wikipedia).

Easier access to the Turnpike? That's the only reason I can think of when looking at the area on Google maps.

[thenetwork]

The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times.  In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.

Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange.  I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.

[TempoNick]

The way I remember it, US 23 in Michigan is all freeway and thus worthy of carrying the I-475 shield. Why hasn't that happened? I know something would have to be done with the existing I-475 segment between I-75 and Flint, maybe that one could be I-475 A. Otherwise, it looks like a straight shot from Toledo through Flint.

[wanderer2575]

The way I remember it, US 23 in Michigan is all freeway and thus worthy of carrying the I-475 shield. Why hasn't that happened? I know something would have to be done with the existing I-475 segment between I-75 and Flint, maybe that one could be I-475 A. Otherwise, it looks like a straight shot from Toledo through Flint.

Why should it happen?  Putting up Interstate shields won't do anything to address the design and capacity deficiencies of the freeway, and US-23 would still run concurrent with it (unless Michigan were to decommission US-23 between Standish and Mackinaw City, which also would be pointless).  It would be nothing more than a waste of money for the purpose of signing a completely redundant route.

[sprjus4]

The way I remember it, US 23 in Michigan is all freeway and thus worthy of carrying the I-475 shield. Why hasn't that happened? I know something would have to be done with the existing I-475 segment between I-75 and Flint, maybe that one could be I-475 A. Otherwise, it looks like a straight shot from Toledo through Flint.

Why should it happen?  Putting up Interstate shields won't do anything to address the design and capacity deficiencies of the freeway, and US-23 would still run concurrent with it (unless Michigan were to decommission US-23 between Standish and Mackinaw City, which also would be pointless).  It would be nothing more than a waste of money for the purpose of signing a completely redundant route.

It's an interstate grade bypass of I-75 through Detroit and carries a large amount of long distance through traffic that would otherwise be on the interstate system.

Out of the various long distance freeways in Michigan, it's the one most worth a designation, IMO.

[Terry Shea]

The way I remember it, US 23 in Michigan is all freeway and thus worthy of carrying the I-475 shield. Why hasn't that happened? I know something would have to be done with the existing I-475 segment between I-75 and Flint, maybe that one could be I-475 A. Otherwise, it looks like a straight shot from Toledo through Flint.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

[westerninterloper]

The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times.  In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.

Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange.  I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.

Maybe what has changed is that Dana and The Andersons have new HQ buildings at Maumee Western. Commuters don't want to fight the traffic on Dussel?

[BrianP]

The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times.  In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.

Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange.  I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.

Maybe what has changed is that Dana and The Andersons have new HQ buildings at Maumee Western. Commuters don't want to fight the traffic on Dussel?

I was also pondering why they would build that interchange. Here's a reason given in the article:

For the port authority, an I-475 interchange at Maumee-Western will function in particular as a new way to get to Eugene F. Kranz Toledo Express Airport, particularly for trucks traveling to or from industrial sites on the airfield's south side.

[Ryctor2018]

The way I remember it, US 23 in Michigan is all freeway and thus worthy of carrying the I-475 shield. Why hasn't that happened? I know something would have to be done with the existing I-475 segment between I-75 and Flint, maybe that one could be I-475 A. Otherwise, it looks like a straight shot from Toledo through Flint.

Why should it happen?  Putting up Interstate shields won't do anything to address the design and capacity deficiencies of the freeway, and US-23 would still run concurrent with it (unless Michigan were to decommission US-23 between Standish and Mackinaw City, which also would be pointless).  It would be nothing more than a waste of money for the purpose of signing a completely redundant route.

It's an interstate grade bypass of I-75 through Detroit and carries a large amount of long distance through traffic that would otherwise be on the interstate system.

Out of the various long distance freeways in Michigan, it's the one most worth a designation, IMO.

True. But, I've pointed out to folks in other threads on this board that is not Michigan's style. The state signs routes based not on highway design, but on location and perhaps historical significance. Many freeways in state could be interstates with relatively modest upgrades. But, Mich will have freeways that are not interstates probably because the state doesn't believe the public will demand it. Heck the state even duplicates numbers! (i.e. I-94 & M-94, I-69 & M-69, I-96 & M-96). Michigan has never cared about route designations like other states.

[GaryV]

Michiganders are smart enough to read the legend on a map to determine if a road is a freeway or not.  At least back when most people had maps.

And I'm not sure if US-23 around the north side of Ann Arbor is fully up to Interstate standards.  There are left exits for M-14.

[Flint1979]

The way I remember it, US 23 in Michigan is all freeway and thus worthy of carrying the I-475 shield. Why hasn't that happened? I know something would have to be done with the existing I-475 segment between I-75 and Flint, maybe that one could be I-475 A. Otherwise, it looks like a straight shot from Toledo through Flint.

Not all of US-23 in Michigan is freeway, the stretch between Standish and Mackinaw City certainly isn't and never will be. Just because it's a freeway doesn't mean it's worthy of being an Interstate. I-75 doesn't really enter Flint it just passes to the west of it with I-475 going into Flint. I don't see any reason to make US-23 into an Interstate.

[zzcarp]

Michiganders are smart enough to read the legend on a map to determine if a road is a freeway or not.  At least back when most people had maps.

And I'm not sure if US-23 around the north side of Ann Arbor is fully up to Interstate standards.  There are left exits for M-14.

Left exits are permitted, especially at major splits like M-14, and that section is not up to Interstate standards.

Bridge clearance and shoulder width are the most obvious deficiencies on the entirety of the US 23 freeway. I know down near Milan there's a couple underpasses with less than 16' clearance and narrow shoulders, and street view shows a 14' clearance overpass right before the western M-14 split.

[Flint1979]

Michiganders are smart enough to read the legend on a map to determine if a road is a freeway or not.  At least back when most people had maps.

And I'm not sure if US-23 around the north side of Ann Arbor is fully up to Interstate standards.  There are left exits for M-14.

Left exits are permitted, especially at major splits like M-14, and that section is not up to Interstate standards.

Bridge clearance and shoulder width are the most obvious deficiencies on the entirety of the US 23 freeway. I know down near Milan there's a couple underpasses with less than 16' clearance and narrow shoulders, and street view shows a 14' clearance overpass right before the western M-14 split.

You're talking about the two railroad overpasses that are both under 15 feet clearance. One is near MM 22 and the other is near MM 26.

[GaryV]

I-75 doesn't really enter Flint it just passes to the west of it with I-475 going into Flint.

Pedantically, I-75 does go through that little isthmus of Flint that connects to Bishop Airport.

[Flint1979]

I-75 doesn't really enter Flint it just passes to the west of it with I-475 going into Flint.

Pedantically, I-75 does go through that little isthmus of Flint that connects to Bishop Airport.

Yes that is true only about a half mile of I-75 runs through the city of Flint due to the isthmus that connects the majority of Flint to Bishop Airport. Usually the airport isn't in the principal cities city limits but it is here which causes Flint Township to be discontinuous otherwise it mine as well be Flint Township.

[Ted$8roadFan]

The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times.  In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.

Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange.  I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.

This story shows that the City of Toledo is still paying the price for decades of using its ample water resources to fuel growth beyond its borders while hollowing out its own urban/suburban core.

[westerninterloper]

The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times.  In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.

Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange.  I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.

This story shows that the City of Toledo is still paying the price for decades of using its ample water resources to fuel growth beyond its borders while hollowing out its own urban/suburban core.

There are many reasons why Toledo faltered after 1970, I'd guess little of it's own doing. Show me a heavy industrial Great Lakes city that has truly prospered since that time? Pittsburgh? Cleveland? Detroit? Erie? Buffalo? Milwaukee? It was a structural, societal change, challenging national policy and global economic changes.

[skluth]

The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times.  In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.

Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange.  I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.

This story shows that the City of Toledo is still paying the price for decades of using its ample water resources to fuel growth beyond its borders while hollowing out its own urban/suburban core.

There are many reasons why Toledo faltered after 1970, I'd guess little of it's own doing. Show me a heavy industrial Great Lakes city that has truly prospered since that time? Pittsburgh? Cleveland? Detroit? Erie? Buffalo? Milwaukee? It was a structural, societal change, challenging national policy and global economic changes.

Green Bay has done quite well. It's major industry is papermaking. They also make a lot of cheese (and it's a Green Bay factory that is responsible for the recent cream cheese shortage).

[Ted$8roadFan]

The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times.  In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.

Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange.  I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.

This story shows that the City of Toledo is still paying the price for decades of using its ample water resources to fuel growth beyond its borders while hollowing out its own urban/suburban core.

There are many reasons why Toledo faltered after 1970, I'd guess little of it's own doing. Show me a heavy industrial Great Lakes city that has truly prospered since that time? Pittsburgh? Cleveland? Detroit? Erie? Buffalo? Milwaukee? It was a structural, societal change, challenging national policy and global economic changes.

Fair enough. True enough. But the City did contribute to its own decline.

[TempoNick]

It's an interstate grade bypass of I-75 through Detroit and carries a large amount of long distance through traffic that would otherwise be on the interstate system.

Out of the various long distance freeways in Michigan, it's the one most worth a designation, IMO.

What I get from following this page is that a lot of people here look at things with an engineer mentality. That's the wrong way to look at it when it comes to signing these roads. People need to look at these things from the standpoint of a driver / traveler. For somebody from out of the area, that i-475 shield conveys a huge amount of information in a very quick and concise manner. For somebody taking it from Ohio, it instantly tells you that you can take the freeway all the way to Flint without having to go to Detroit.

The US 23 shield means that you could be stuck behind an amish buggy for 10 miles if you don't know it's a freeway.

[TempoNick]

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Sure it does. It means somebody south of Toledo can instantly know that they've got a freeway alternative to Flint and beyond. On the other hand, a highway signed with the US shield is a mixed bag. You could very easily be stuck behind somebody putzing along for 10 miles on a two-lane road with no ability to pass them. Example: US 35 in West Virginia as of a couple of years ago.