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Left Lane Camping

Started by webny99, June 01, 2017, 09:03:45 PM

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Takumi

While driving to Richmond on I-95 northbound yesterday, the VMS's said "slower traffic keep right / fines higher" and "left lane is for passing only, not cruising" or something to R hat effect.
Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Olive Garden must be stopped.  I must stop them.

Don't @ me. Seriously.


Beltway

Quote from: michravera on July 21, 2017, 09:40:54 PM
Quote from: Beltway on July 20, 2017, 07:11:37 PM
Quote from: michravera on July 20, 2017, 04:22:48 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 20, 2017, 12:12:22 PM
Quote from: Beltway on July 20, 2017, 12:10:01 PM
Quote from: michravera on July 19, 2017, 09:06:23 PM
A driver is guilty of "Left lane hogging" if he enters or remains in the left lane of a free flowing highway when it is safe to move into a lane further to the right under one or more of the following circumstances:
1) more than two non-emergency vehicles not engaged in a speed or maneuvering contest have passed him on the right
2) Another driver has requested that he move right by flashing headlights or giving an audible tone
3) 5 or more other vehicles have arrayed themselves behind him
None of this applies in heavy traffic or when use of the left lane is required in order to take a left exit, make a left turn, or in order to comply with some other law.
That highly depends on the respective state traffic laws.  In some states it is illegal to pass on the right.  In some states it is illegal to use the headlights or horn in that manner in a nonemergency situation.
In which states is it illegal to pass on the right?  In some states it's illegal to pass on the shoulder, but I don't think there's any state where someone can't pass as long as there's 2 thru lanes in the same direction.
I gave a definition. I didn't state that the actions of other drivers had to be legal. I didn't state that "Left Lane Hogging" was illegal (It is in California, and the definition is close to what I have defined). I just defined the term as it is and ought to be used.
Then that is just your opinion.  Anyone can have an opinion on any side of an issue.  A good starting point IMHO is with the coded laws of the respective state as to what has been debated by the general assembly and passed into law.
Just a couple of quotes from the CVC should strengthen my position:
California Vehicle code

All that does is cite what one state does.  There are 50 states.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

michravera

Quote from: Beltway on July 22, 2017, 12:12:01 AM
Quote from: michravera on July 21, 2017, 09:40:54 PM
Quote from: Beltway on July 20, 2017, 07:11:37 PM
Quote from: michravera on July 20, 2017, 04:22:48 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 20, 2017, 12:12:22 PM
Quote from: Beltway on July 20, 2017, 12:10:01 PM
Quote from: michravera on July 19, 2017, 09:06:23 PM
A driver is guilty of "Left lane hogging" if he enters or remains in the left lane of a free flowing highway when it is safe to move into a lane further to the right under one or more of the following circumstances:
1) more than two non-emergency vehicles not engaged in a speed or maneuvering contest have passed him on the right
2) Another driver has requested that he move right by flashing headlights or giving an audible tone
3) 5 or more other vehicles have arrayed themselves behind him
None of this applies in heavy traffic or when use of the left lane is required in order to take a left exit, make a left turn, or in order to comply with some other law.
That highly depends on the respective state traffic laws.  In some states it is illegal to pass on the right.  In some states it is illegal to use the headlights or horn in that manner in a nonemergency situation.
In which states is it illegal to pass on the right?  In some states it's illegal to pass on the shoulder, but I don't think there's any state where someone can't pass as long as there's 2 thru lanes in the same direction.
I gave a definition. I didn't state that the actions of other drivers had to be legal. I didn't state that "Left Lane Hogging" was illegal (It is in California, and the definition is close to what I have defined). I just defined the term as it is and ought to be used.
Then that is just your opinion.  Anyone can have an opinion on any side of an issue.  A good starting point IMHO is with the coded laws of the respective state as to what has been debated by the general assembly and passed into law.
Just a couple of quotes from the CVC should strengthen my position:
California Vehicle code

All that does is cite what one state does.  There are 50 states.

So? There are 56 or 57 separate state-entitled jurisdictions in the US and another 250 or so nation-entitled jurisdictions in the world. Just because you can count stars on a flag doesn't give you moral authority to deny the definition. If you don't like my definition or California's laws, feel free to give an alternate credible definition or propose how you would like the law to read. That's the purpose of a forum!
I gave my definition of "Left Lane Hogging". I gave it as a model for what is certainly is annoying driving behavior and what a jurisdiction might reasonably choose to prohibit. In fact, at least one jurisdiction *HAS* chosen to prohibit approximately what I defined and in a rather obvious way.
... and yes, California is only one state in one country. But it has about 20% of the cars in the US. There are probably more licensed drivers in California than there are *PEOPLE* in Texas. ... and probably more registered vehicles in California that there are PEOPLE in Texas and Florida combined. Now, California would do well to adopt 130 km/h (or 80 or 85MPH) speed limits in areas where it is safe (as Texas has), but  it does a number of things right as far as driving is concerned (like making every effort to separate truck traffic from auto traffic whenever possible). As a state, we learned how to drive before everyone else. In fact, the condition of our roads shows it in a lot of cases.

1995hoo

Quote from: Takumi on July 21, 2017, 10:52:51 PM
While driving to Richmond on I-95 northbound yesterday, the VMS's said "slower traffic keep right / fines higher" and "left lane is for passing only, not cruising" or something to R hat effect.

There's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

LM117

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 22, 2017, 07:33:18 AMThere's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.

Me neither. I don't know about other parts of the state but around here, nothing's really enforced except, true to VA fashion, speed. :rolleyes: I've seen people here pull all kinds of stupid shit (nearly caused me to become a statistic a few times) in front of cops and those fuckers don't blink an eye, but dare go a few miles over the speed limit and BAM! "License and registration please..." :banghead:
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

Beltway

#80
Quote from: michravera on July 22, 2017, 05:05:27 AM
Quote from: Beltway on July 22, 2017, 12:12:01 AM
Quote from: michravera on July 21, 2017, 09:40:54 PM
Just a couple of quotes from the CVC should strengthen my position:
California Vehicle code
All that does is cite what one state does.  There are 50 states.
So? There are 56 or 57 separate state-entitled jurisdictions in the US and another 250 or so nation-entitled jurisdictions in the world. Just because you can count stars on a flag doesn't give you moral authority to deny the definition. If you don't like my definition or California's laws, feel free to give an alternate credible definition or propose how you would like the law to read. That's the purpose of a forum!
I gave my definition of "Left Lane Hogging". I gave it as a model for what is certainly is annoying driving behavior and what a jurisdiction might reasonably choose to prohibit. In fact, at least one jurisdiction *HAS* chosen to prohibit approximately what I defined and in a rather obvious way.
... and yes, California is only one state in one country. But it has about 20% of the cars in the US. There are probably more licensed drivers in California than there are *PEOPLE* in Texas. ... and probably more registered vehicles in California that there are PEOPLE in Texas and Florida combined. Now, California would do well to adopt 130 km/h (or 80 or 85MPH) speed limits in areas where it is safe (as Texas has), but  it does a number of things right as far as driving is concerned (like making every effort to separate truck traffic from auto traffic whenever possible). As a state, we learned how to drive before everyone else. In fact, the condition of our roads shows it in a lot of cases.

Well, I live on the other side of the country, and like many people all over the country we have no interest in emulating, in general, California ideas and practices.

I have driven over a million miles in almost 50 years of driving, the bulk of it in the region between Richmond, VA and Philadelphia inclusive, and with significant amounts in central Florida, western New York state, greater Chicago and Los Angeles.

My observations is that there is very little actual "left lane hogging" in the sense of driving slower than the general traffic stream on Interstate highways.

Apparently it is the people who want to drive 20 to 25 miles or more over the speed limit that encounters these "obstacles" in the left lane, in actuality other drivers that are legitimately using the left lane.  I have no sympathy for this attitude.

I have cited the true problem of "middle lane hogging".  That is on 6-lane (3 each way) Interstates where drivers going 5 to 10 mph or more below the speed limit camp out in the middle lane, apparently thinking that it is OK because they are not in the inner lane.  In heavy traffic this causes congestion as traffic has to slow down and flow around these jerks.  BTW, flashing headlights or horn and hand signals rarely get these drivers to get over into the right lane.  These are not cases where pavement conditions in the right lane have anything to do with it.  This problem is quite common.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

1995hoo

I have no problem with him citing California law as the basis for his opinions. It makes sense that if he's from California, he'd be most familiar with their rules. I do have a problem with the way many people from California (I've seen this on other discussion sites as well) seem to think their state's definition is THE definition, such as the post above that says "as it is and ought to be used."

I'm typing this at the train station in Sanford. Driving up Florida's Turnpike today we kept encountering the types of drivers I regard as the bigger problem than the left-lane hogs–the people who are determined to try to impose their preferred speed on everyone else in both lanes. I'm anything but a left-lane hog. I spent most of the trip in the right lane going 75 and when I'd pass, I'd speed up if needed and I always get back over. As usual down here, lots of other people don't move back over. There are an awful lot of people who, when they get frustrated with the left lane traffic, will try to pass on the right and will proceed to tailgate people like me. I don't understand the point of that. I'm in the right lane. Why should I speed up just because the guy behind me wants to get past the guy in the left lane? I know it's frustrating, but I'm the one doing the right thing.

On a semi-related note, my wife's new car has radar-based adaptive cruise control. Older radar detectors must get fooled by it because several times people passing us abruptly slowed when no cops were anywhere around.  :-D
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

jakeroot

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 22, 2017, 02:05:09 PM
On a semi-related note, my wife's new car has radar-based adaptive cruise control. Older radar detectors must get fooled by it because several times people passing us abruptly slowed when no cops were anywhere around.  :-D

I really, really want to like these new adaptive cruise systems. But it seems like the closest distance you're allowed to follow at (at least in the last car I drove with it, a Toyota Highlander) is still many car lengths back. We kept getting cut off, over and over again, and we could sense a large amount of annoyance from drivers behind us (we were in the right lane, FWIW).

Jeremy Clarkson demonstrated adaptive cruise several years ago when he was racing the Jaguar XJ against the sun. He showed the closest distance as being no more than two car lengths away from the car in front (dubbed the "Full Audi"). But I think he was just playing around and not using cruise, because I've never seen an adaptive cruise system that lets you follow at 3-4 car lengths (what I consider normal following distance here in Seattle).

1995hoo

Ours lets you change the following distance and I shortened it somewhat. Still need to play with it some more outside of urban areas. What is taking time to adjust to is planning ahead for when it's likely to brake versus when I might want to prepare to pass someone such that I'm better off hitting the "cancel" button.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

vdeane

Quote from: Beltway on July 22, 2017, 12:03:59 PM
My observations is that there is very little actual "left lane hogging" in the sense of driving slower than the general traffic stream on Interstate highways.

Apparently it is the people who want to drive 20 to 25 miles or more over the speed limit that encounters these "obstacles" in the left lane, in actuality other drivers that are legitimately using the left lane.  I have no sympathy for this attitude.
I have seen people being an obstacle in the left lane of the Thruway as little as 5 mph over (which is itself often well below the speed of traffic on that road).

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 22, 2017, 03:19:23 PM
Ours lets you change the following distance and I shortened it somewhat. Still need to play with it some more outside of urban areas. What is taking time to adjust to is planning ahead for when it's likely to brake versus when I might want to prepare to pass someone such that I'm better off hitting the "cancel" button.
And these reasons are exactly why I'm glad I don't have this "feature" on my Civic.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

1995hoo

The adaptive cruise was kinda cool on the way south last week. We hit a work zone north of Fort Pierce and the speed limit dropped from 70 to 60. I had the cruise control set at 70 or 75 and the guy ahead of us slowed to 60. Our car did the same and held 60 all the way through the work zone (in the right lane) without my doing anything, and then it sped right back up after we emerged from the work zone and the guy sped up. Pretty neat.

What I am a little concerned about is whether it would be dangerous to use when there are tailgaters around. If someone cuts abruptly in front of you at close range, the system can brake fairly hard.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

J N Winkler

#86
I find the comments about adaptive cruise control interesting:  I have been wondering if such systems universally include a mechanism for adjusting following distance, and if so, what the limits of adjustment are.  It would be desirable to set a following distance equal in seconds to 9% of the speed limit in mph, to keep the car out of stone chip range.

The strategy an adaptive cruise control system uses to renew following distance after a car cuts in also matters.  Ideally it should drop back by coasting or by holding speed as the other vehicle pulls away, unless the vehicle in front brakes heavily, in which case it should also be able to operate the brakes.  To do this effectively, it should have the ability to check change of speed as well as speed and position of the vehicle in front.  A system of this kind would be fairly well foolproofed against tailgaters as long as the following distance was set to a fairly high value, though high-level driver supervision would still be necessary to cope with abrupt slowdowns that are too far ahead to be visible to the system, and it is still desirable to observe a longer-than-usual following distance when being tailgated.

I know of no good solution to the middle-lane crawling problem, which basically results from the interaction of congestion on both mainline and ramp.

As for the left-lane camping question in the OP, I take the view that use of the left lane is governed by a social contract.  I will complete an overtake at a speed differential that is as generous as I think is safe, and once I am done, I will return to the right-hand lane (unless there are other slower vehicles in my following-distance envelope that I will also attempt to pass).  In return, you wait your turn, and do not honk at me, flash lights at me, or try to slalom around me if I hang back at what I think is a safe following distance as the person in front of me finishes his or her overtake.

I also try to follow a no-platooning policy.  If I am on a two-lane road, traffic is stacking behind me, and the shoulder is clear, free of debris, and reasonably wide, I will move onto it and coast to let traffic past.  However, if I am on a freeway where applying the no-platooning policy would mean giving up my place in a queue of overtaking vehicles, I will usually consider it only if there is a workable solution--such as setting my cruise control several mph below the prevailing speed of traffic--that does not unduly disadvantage me in terms of forward visibility.  I don't like spending long freeway drives staring at the backs of eighteen-wheelers.

I know my limits in terms of alertness, response time, and appetite for risk, so I won't trim headways purely for the sake of not taking up more than an abstractly conceived fair share of roadspace.  If this makes me obnoxious to other drivers under bad LOS conditions, so be it:  my central preoccupation is remaining both mobile and accident-free.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Beltway

Quote from: J N Winkler on July 22, 2017, 07:42:56 PM
I know of no good solution to the middle-lane crawling problem, which basically results from the interaction of congestion on both mainline and ramp.

Not in the situations where I find it most problematic, rural 6-lane Interstates where interchanges average about 5 miles apart, and where the right lane is not experiencing any major congestion at that point.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

michravera

Quote from: Beltway on July 22, 2017, 08:21:04 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 22, 2017, 07:42:56 PM
I know of no good solution to the middle-lane crawling problem, which basically results from the interaction of congestion on both mainline and ramp.

Not in the situations where I find it most problematic, rural 6-lane Interstates where interchanges average about 5 miles apart, and where the right lane is not experiencing any major congestion at that point.

If there is congestion, it's not crawling. It's trying not to hit someone and not to be hit. I think that, at some point, driver training pointed out the advantages of using the middle lane of three whenever possible (but that was one one-way streets with permitted left turns). It keeps you out of the right lane where people are entering and exiting and out of the left lane where people are passing. But, in rural situations such as described, the right lane is a perfectly good driving lane except for about 5% of the ride. So, people should use it, especially, if they are going to crawl. But, if the problem is that people are concentrating on something besides driving and it requires that they slow down to keep both things under control, maybe they should get off the road, do whatever commands their attention, and them get back on the road and drive at normal speed. They would probably get to their destinations sooner, safer, with both things accomplished, and wouldn't cause a nuisance to the rest of the traffic.

In a couple decades, I am sure that we will be expecting the car to take care of things while we are no more than passengers. People wishing to enjoy Fahrvergnügen will have to go to closed roadways. I am glad that by then, I will be one of those old guys who takes my old '22 Jetta (one of the last production "full gas" cars ever made) out to the driving track on Wednesday mornings. Until then, dividing attention is just not cool!

vdeane

What's a "full gas" car?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

hotdogPi

Quote from: vdeane on July 22, 2017, 09:01:01 PM
What's a "full gas" car?

From what I can tell, the Jetta did not start production until 1979, and "full gas car" is not an existing phrase. It may be a future prediction where 2022 is the last year that there will be cars that are not electric or hybrids.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Beltway

#91
Quote from: michravera on July 22, 2017, 08:49:42 PM
Quote from: Beltway on July 22, 2017, 08:21:04 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 22, 2017, 07:42:56 PM
I know of no good solution to the middle-lane crawling problem, which basically results from the interaction of congestion on both mainline and ramp.
Not in the situations where I find it most problematic, rural 6-lane Interstates where interchanges average about 5 miles apart, and where the right lane is not experiencing any major congestion at that point.
If there is congestion, it's not crawling. It's trying not to hit someone and not to be hit. I think that, at some point, driver training pointed out the advantages of using the middle lane of three whenever possible (but that was one one-way streets with permitted left turns). It keeps you out of the right lane where people are entering and exiting and out of the left lane where people are passing. But, in rural situations such as described, the right lane is a perfectly good driving lane except for about 5% of the ride. So, people should use it, especially, if they are going to crawl.

I was talking about situations where they are going 5 to 10 mph or more below the speed limit in the middle lane.  Maybe I should have made it clear that there was no impediment to them going the speed limit in the middle lane, in these cases that I am complaining about.  Also not near an interchange, they do this mile after mile after mile.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

michravera

Quote from: 1 on July 22, 2017, 09:11:08 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 22, 2017, 09:01:01 PM
What's a "full gas" car?

From what I can tell, the Jetta did not start production until 1979, and "full gas car" is not an existing phrase. It may be a future prediction where 2022 is the last year that there will be cars that are not electric or hybrids.
I was speaking futuristically for 2045. So, "'22" is 2022. My term "full gas car" is one that runs on gasoline and is no part electric, solar, or dilithium crystals.

Buffaboy

The 65 MPH speed limit on the Thruway enables drivers to haul ass doing 75-80 in the left lane on straight and slightly curved sections of highway.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

My Wikipedia county SVG maps: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Buffaboy

Bickendan

The Thruway is underposted at 65. It should be 70 or 75.

ekt8750

Quote from: Bickendan on July 23, 2017, 03:48:28 AM
The Thruway is underposted at 65. It should be 70 or 75.

But posted just right for state fundraising efforts. :spin:

michravera

Quote from: LM117 on July 22, 2017, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 22, 2017, 07:33:18 AMThere's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.

Me neither. I don't know about other parts of the state but around here, nothing's really enforced except, true to VA fashion, speed. :rolleyes: I've seen people here pull all kinds of stupid shit (nearly caused me to become a statistic a few times) in front of cops and those fuckers don't blink an eye, but dare go a few miles over the speed limit and BAM! "License and registration please..." :banghead:

I don't, for a fact, know much about Virginia's enforcement tendencies, but it would seem to me that a little bit of enforcement of KRETP laws (or other useful traffic blocking laws) would aid in revenue enforcement. It would give those who intend to speed a clear path to do so.
Officer Hotpencil: Do you know how many drivers who wanted to speed you kept me from citing today?
Motorist Slowpoke: I'm sorry, officer! Can you let me off with a warning?
Officer Hotpencil: Sorry, Ma'am. I can't do that. You probably cost the state at least $1000 in fines.
Motorist Slowpoke: I just didn't think it was safe to go any faster while I was texting, putting in my contacts, and shooting up. ... and you know how dangerous the right lane is ....

Beltway

Quote from: LM117 on July 22, 2017, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 22, 2017, 07:33:18 AMThere's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.
Me neither. I don't know about other parts of the state but around here, nothing's really enforced except, true to VA fashion, speed. :rolleyes: I've seen people here pull all kinds of stupid shit (nearly caused me to become a statistic a few times) in front of cops and those fuckers don't blink an eye, but dare go a few miles over the speed limit and BAM! "License and registration please..." :banghead:

That's baloney any way you slice it.

Been driving almost 40 years in this state, and never stopped for 5 to 7 miles over the limit.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

LM117

#98
Quote from: Beltway on July 23, 2017, 02:27:28 PM
Quote from: LM117 on July 22, 2017, 10:48:21 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 22, 2017, 07:33:18 AMThere's a new Virginia statute effective July 1 of this year that explicitly requires keeping right except to pass, but I'm not optimistic about its being enforced.
Me neither. I don't know about other parts of the state but around here, nothing's really enforced except, true to VA fashion, speed. :rolleyes: I've seen people here pull all kinds of stupid shit (nearly caused me to become a statistic a few times) in front of cops and those fuckers don't blink an eye, but dare go a few miles over the speed limit and BAM! "License and registration please..." :banghead:

That's baloney any way you slice it.

Been driving almost 40 years in this state, and never stopped for 5 to 7 miles over the limit.

I don't care if you believe it or not. It's happened in my area. I know several people here who've gotten nailed for less than 10 over. It's not rampant like Emporia and Hopewell, but it does happen time to time while more serious offenses often go unpunished.

If you've never been stopped, then good for you.
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

RobbieL2415

Now, what about states that have an exemption for keeping right except to pass on highways with three or more lanes?



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