Interstate 81 in Syracuse

[TheDon102]

Have I mentioned fuck the community grid?

You're entitled to your opinion.  But, given your posting record (both here and on Facebook), you don't seem to understand that freeways are not always the right answer.

How is the freeway not the right answer? It's already exists. No one is talking about a new freeway alignment through dense urban neighborhoods, simply a replacement of what already exists.

[sprjus4]

^

Not to mention, the community grid is no cheap option either. Both cost well over a billion dollars, and at least you would be getting a new viaduct / wider interstate with a freeway replacement. With the community grid, much of that money is poured into redoing a street system and redesigning interchanges on I-481.

[machias]

They should just rebuild what they have.

[Plutonic Panda]

Have I mentioned fuck the community grid?

You're entitled to your opinion.  But, given your posting record (both here and on Facebook), you don't seem to understand that freeways are not always the right answer.

There are plenty of times I have supported freeway removals and see at grade boulevards as the right option over freeways. Yes I support freeways most of the time but not always. It seems you are only seeing posts from me about supporting freeways or ignoring my posts where I support their removals like the case with 375 in Detroit.

[kalvado]

Have I mentioned fuck the community grid?

You're entitled to your opinion.  But, given your posting record (both here and on Facebook), you don't seem to understand that freeways are not always the right answer.

How is the freeway not the right answer? It's already exists. No one is talking about a new freeway alignment through dense urban neighborhoods, simply a replacement of what already exists.

We're talking about significant change of alignment in a dense urban area. No, rebuild as-is isn't an option.
No, not even that way.
No, that wouldn't work as well.
Nope, that was already discussed.

[sprjus4]

^

Bulldozing the town?? Sounds like a strawman. The proposed new viaduct wasn't the cross bronx... less than 25 properties would have been affected.

[TheDon102]

Have I mentioned fuck the community grid?

You're entitled to your opinion.  But, given your posting record (both here and on Facebook), you don't seem to understand that freeways are not always the right answer.

How is the freeway not the right answer? It's already exists. No one is talking about a new freeway alignment through dense urban neighborhoods, simply a replacement of what already exists.

We're talking about significant change of alignment in a dense urban area. No, rebuild as-is isn't an option.
No, not even that way.
No, that wouldn't work as well.
Nope, that was already discussed.

How many properties will be affected by the new viaduct? It's also important to realize that having both 81 and 481 provide redundancy to the freeway network in New York State. Removing 81 to right wrongs of 50-60 years ago, isn't exactly viable. I'm sure if they literally replaced the viaduct within the existing ROI you would still have community opposition.

[sprjus4]

Notice how I-20 / I-59 wasn't torn out of Birmingham, AL. It was replaced with a new, 8 lane freeway viaduct on existing location.

Not to mention, I-459 also exists for north-south traffic, and is aligned / serves as a long-distance bypass as opposed to I-481 which acts more like a beltway, not a viable through route.

[Plutonic Panda]

Have I mentioned fuck the community grid?

You're entitled to your opinion.  But, given your posting record (both here and on Facebook), you don't seem to understand that freeways are not always the right answer.

How is the freeway not the right answer? It's already exists. No one is talking about a new freeway alignment through dense urban neighborhoods, simply a replacement of what already exists.

We're talking about significant change of alignment in a dense urban area. No, rebuild as-is isn't an option.
No, not even that way.
No, that wouldn't work as well.
Nope, that was already discussed.

We went to the moon yet rebuilding a road is too complex and expensive for one of the largest states in the country to take on. New York is also one of the highest taxed yet another excuse is there isn't enough money. Give me a break.

[Alps]

Instead of going back and forth with our opinions, why don't we leave this thread to discuss factual, ongoing developments with I-81? Thanks in advance.

[Plutonic Panda]

Instead of going back and forth with our opinions, why don't we leave this thread to discuss factual, ongoing developments with I-81? Thanks in advance.

The community grid has been picked as the preferred alternative. There were others presented and I'm sure that examples exist of a project being canceled or altered after a preferred alternative was chosen. I don't see a discussion about the disappointment some folks have with this choice that hasn't been built or started yet dishonest or off topic.

[kalvado]

Instead of going back and forth with our opinions, why don't we leave this thread to discuss factual, ongoing developments with I-81? Thanks in advance.

The community grid has been picked as the preferred alternative. There were others presented and I'm sure that examples exist of a project being canceled or altered after a preferred alternative was chosen. I don't see a discussion about the disappointment some folks have with this choice that hasn't been built or started yet dishonest or off topic.

Nobody really likes community grid - but there is no better option here. Unfortunately, things just lined up the wrong way...
And if you want to compare things to Apollo program.. Just think about it - Wernher von Braun and Kurt Debus would have a lot of problems with H1B's these days...

[Plutonic Panda]

Instead of going back and forth with our opinions, why don't we leave this thread to discuss factual, ongoing developments with I-81? Thanks in advance.

The community grid has been picked as the preferred alternative. There were others presented and I'm sure that examples exist of a project being canceled or altered after a preferred alternative was chosen. I don't see a discussion about the disappointment some folks have with this choice that hasn't been built or started yet dishonest or off topic.

Nobody really likes community grid - but there is no better option here. Unfortunately, things just lined up the wrong way...
And if you want to compare things to Apollo program.. Just think about it - Wernher von Braun and Kurt Debus would have a lot of problems with H1B's these days...

I get it. My reference to the landing on moon was just an apology how the US used to build incredible things that we still marvel at today and though we still build great things, far too often I read articles about proposed projects that get shot down with arguments that it simply can't be done due to this or that.

[Rothman]

I second that. However, it looks like that is what will ultimately be built. If Syracuse residents and commuters bitch about how the "community grid" has made things worse for them, we can give them a we-told-you-so!

I don't think the Syracuse public is unified around a particular alternative.  I think it was a purely financial decision.  A few hundred million dollars of difference is pretty darned significant.

The major outstanding concern that I see is traffic coming from the south and headed west.  Not sure that issue will be resolved satisfactorily.

(personal opinion emphasized)

[kalvado]

I second that. However, it looks like that is what will ultimately be built. If Syracuse residents and commuters bitch about how the "community grid" has made things worse for them, we can give them a we-told-you-so!

I don't think the Syracuse public is unified around a particular alternative.  I think it was a purely financial decision.  A few hundred million dollars of difference is pretty darned significant.

The major outstanding concern that I see is traffic coming from the south and headed west.  Not sure that issue will be resolved satisfactorily.

(personal opinion emphasized)

I would rephrase that as different groups of locals are pretty unified against different options with no real consensus. Which means a lot of court and forum battles
However, on per-capita basis Syracuse project, when spread across entire NYS population, costs about 10% of Apollo project costs spread across US population - which is a < self-censored > money for 1 mile of a highway.

[dkblake]

I second that. However, it looks like that is what will ultimately be built. If Syracuse residents and commuters bitch about how the "community grid" has made things worse for them, we can give them a we-told-you-so!

I don't think the Syracuse public is unified around a particular alternative.  I think it was a purely financial decision.  A few hundred million dollars of difference is pretty darned significant.

The major outstanding concern that I see is traffic coming from the south and headed west.  Not sure that issue will be resolved satisfactorily.

(personal opinion emphasized)

I guess in theory the signs around Cortland will become "Trucks to Rochester Take I-81 to I-90 at Exit 34B"? (I'm somewhat out of the loop, but I'm assuming I-481 would become I-81 mainline.) It would probably add about 10 minutes- enough to be annoying, especially with DeWitt traffic, but not enough for other routing alternatives (i.e. NY 41) to be that viable.

[machias]

Whatever happens, NYSDOT will use the opportunity to switch I-81 to distanced based numbered interchanges!

[webny99]

...
The major outstanding concern that I see is traffic coming from the south and headed west.  Not sure that issue will be resolved satisfactorily.

(personal opinion emphasized)

I guess in theory the signs around Cortland will become "Trucks to Rochester Take I-81 to I-90 at Exit 34B"? (I'm somewhat out of the loop, but I'm assuming I-481 would become I-81 mainline.) It would probably add about 10 minutes- enough to be annoying, especially with DeWitt traffic, but not enough for other routing alternatives (i.e. NY 41) to be that viable.

Yes, I-481 would/will become mainline I-81. Trucks from Binghamton to Buffalo/Canada will likely end up using I-86 (as plenty do already), but Rochester is more complicated. Current signage on the Thruway directs trucks to Binghamton to use I-690 to I-81, while northbound I-81 signage directs trucks to take I-81 straight to the Thruway.

I'm not sure what makes the difference there, but at the end of the day, trucks to Rochester are still going to end up biting the bullet and taking current I-481 around Syracuse. They might even end up just using the new surface boulevard. I likely will too, especially in light traffic or at night. It's just too much longer to take I-86/I-390, or mess around with the sub-par state route alternates in the eastern Finger Lakes.

[Rothman]

Just so you know, traffic light timing in Syracuse is terrible.  Synchronization is minimal.  I don't see that changing with the grid.

Oh, I am also ticked that it's getting rid of the McBride St. onramp to I-690 EB.

[webny99]

Just so you know, traffic light timing in Syracuse is terrible.  Synchronization is minimal.  I don't see that changing with the grid.

I wondered about that. If there's little to no chance of getting a green wave, that's going to deter long-distance traffic.
Is it known yet how many total lights there would be on the new boulevard?

[kalvado]

Just so you know, traffic light timing in Syracuse is terrible.  Synchronization is minimal.  I don't see that changing with the grid.

I wondered about that. If there's little to no chance of getting a green wave, that's going to deter long-distance traffic.
Is it known yet how many total lights there would be on the new boulevard?

Once upon a time, I witnessed how that was attempted in Albany. Left me wonder if NYSDOT engineers are able to find their gluts using both upper limbs!

[froggie]

Is it known yet how many total lights there would be on the new boulevard?

According to the plans dated April 2019, eleven.  Then, in the northbound direction, another 4 along Erie Blvd and 2 along an extended Pearl St.

Fortunately, compared with earlier renditions, the plans show left turn lanes at most intersections along the boulevard.

[cl94]

Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)

[kalvado]

Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)

If only there was a way to pin this post for everyone to read before entering the discussion!
I would only add a few words about what  "not meeting standards" actually means: it is not some paperwork issue, it is high crash rates.  Reasons include: No shoulders. Steep curves with 45 MPH speed limit. Did I forget anything? 

[Alps]

Alright, time to answer a lot of the points brought up in the past few days while I was on vacation...

"Why can't they rebuild what they have?": Feds will only allow a complete rebuild that does not meet modern standards if there is an engineering reason why those standards could not be met. Rebuilding on the current alignment, but meeting modern standards, is technically feasible.
"It's only X properties!": Problem is what those properties are. Current I-81 is shoehorned in between a hospital and low-income housing, possibly the two hardest things to relocate right now. Most (if not all) affected properties are low-income housing or Syracuse University/its hospital and relocating either is politically infeasible.
"But what about 29/50 in Birmingham?": Different circumstances. ROW wasn't nearly as constrained and property takings were minimal. Even if there was property taking, Alabama is far more willing to plow through minority neighborhoods to build a road than New York is.

These points and the legal battles to come are why I expect the viaduct to fall down before shovels hit the ground.
(Personal opinion emphasized)

You know, though, existing hospital and low-income housing ARE engineering reasons - you can't engineer a road without taking properties that are infeasible.