Wisconsin notes

[discochris]

I know there's been talk, fictional and otherwise, about expanding US 2 to four-lane from Superior to Hurley. While there's a fair amount of truck traffic, I can't see how this would possibly be needed.

That said, why on earth has there never been a loop/bypass of Superior connecting up with I-35? 
Is it because Wisconsin would prefer that traffic go south on 53, or that MNDot wouldn't ever cooperate with such a project? Or is it because they'd have to build another bridge, probably over the St. Louis river, and that would make it cost prohibitive? Coming from Duluth going east on 2, driving through Superior is a total time waster. It would be nice to have a bypass.

[SEWIGuy]

US-2 does not need to be four lanes between Superior and Hurley.  Traffic counts are in the 4,000 - 6,000 range in the rural areas, which means the current two lanes are sufficient.  To put this in context, the recently completed WI-26 four laning projects, which a number of people claim wasn't necessary, has traffic counts in the 7,000 - 8,000 range at its least congested part.

[Rothman]

That said, why on earth has there never been a loop/bypass of Superior connecting up with I-35? 
Is it because Wisconsin would prefer that traffic go south on 53, or that MNDot wouldn't ever cooperate with such a project? Or is it because they'd have to build another bridge, probably over the St. Louis river, and that would make it cost prohibitive? Coming from Duluth going east on 2, driving through Superior is a total time waster. It would be nice to have a bypass.

Duluth/Superior is overbuilt as is given the traffic up there.  It's really not that bad going from I-535 to US 53 to US 2.  I doubt anyone would take the Bong Bridge and drive through Superior on US 2 besides roadgeeks clinching the route.

[discochris]

That said, why on earth has there never been a loop/bypass of Superior connecting up with I-35? 
Is it because Wisconsin would prefer that traffic go south on 53, or that MNDot wouldn't ever cooperate with such a project? Or is it because they'd have to build another bridge, probably over the St. Louis river, and that would make it cost prohibitive? Coming from Duluth going east on 2, driving through Superior is a total time waster. It would be nice to have a bypass.

Duluth/Superior is overbuilt as is given the traffic up there.  It's really not that bad going from I-535 to US 53 to US 2.  I doubt anyone would take the Bong Bridge and drive through Superior on US 2 besides roadgeeks clinching the route.

Actually most GPS will route you on the Bong Bridge rather than 535, even when set to faster time. I've done both ways (I drive this at least once a month, and in the summer, once a week), and there's virtually no difference in time to get through Superior, depending on the stoplights. I agree that the area is overbuilt, but I don't understand why when they built the Bong Bridge they didn't make it a loop to the south of Superior, rather than just another route right through town.

[Rothman]

That said, why on earth has there never been a loop/bypass of Superior connecting up with I-35? 
Is it because Wisconsin would prefer that traffic go south on 53, or that MNDot wouldn't ever cooperate with such a project? Or is it because they'd have to build another bridge, probably over the St. Louis river, and that would make it cost prohibitive? Coming from Duluth going east on 2, driving through Superior is a total time waster. It would be nice to have a bypass.

Duluth/Superior is overbuilt as is given the traffic up there.  It's really not that bad going from I-535 to US 53 to US 2.  I doubt anyone would take the Bong Bridge and drive through Superior on US 2 besides roadgeeks clinching the route.

Actually most GPS will route you on the Bong Bridge rather than 535, even when set to faster time. I've done both ways (I drive this at least once a month, and in the summer, once a week), and there's virtually no difference in time to get through Superior, depending on the stoplights. I agree that the area is overbuilt, but I don't understand why when they built the Bong Bridge they didn't make it a loop to the south of Superior, rather than just another route right through town.

Superior takes a lot of pride in their large municipal forest (they claim it's the largest in the country; I'm sure that's arguable).  The area near the forest is also one of the more affluent neighborhoods in Superior (relatively speaking...for Superior -- Billings Park).  Then you have the railyards, airport and big box commerical strip on WI 35 to contend with. 

I'm also thinking that, as has been pointed out, there's simply not a lot of traffic headed out to the U.P. along US 2 and the Bong Bridge was simply built as another connection between Duluth and Superior rather than to accommodate long-distance traffic.

And then, even if there was demand for it, you have the fact that Madison doesn't pay attention to anything north of WI 29 (or US 8).

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I think mgk mentioned at one point that there was in fact a bypass planned (obviously long dead). I haven't found anything to confirm beyond what he said on here, but since there's a flyover ramp from southbound I-35 to eastbound US 2 in Duluth that somewhat suggests to me that there may have been bigger plans for US 2 in Superior at one point. And MNDot won't even build those sort of ramps where they're actually needed, so the fact that they built one there could be telling.

[discochris]

Thinking more about it, it could be a terrain issue. You can cross south of Duluth on that weird old swing bridge in Gary-New Duluth that connects with the Village of Superior, but connecting to I-35 would basically mean blasting through Spirit Mountain. As far as the flyover, I assume it was just money Oberstar was able to get directed to his area.

The question was largely me being selfish, as I detest having to drive through Superior.

[mgk920]

There was indeed once a plan to build a bypass freeway to connect the Bong Bridge with the US 2/53 freeway on the SE corner of Superior.  The recent work on the Bong Bridge approach was to remove the incomplete 'ghost' diamond interchange at Belknap St and replace it with a roundabout.  The unbuilt bypass freeway was to run due south from there to the the city's south side, then curve southeastward and then eastward to feed into the US 2/53 freeway.

Mike

[SEWIGuy]

And then, even if there was demand for it, you have the fact that Madison doesn't pay attention to anything north of WI 29 (or US 8).

As they should.  South is where the people are and where the growth is occurring. 

https://www.census.gov/2010census/news/img/cb11cn80_wi_perchange_2010map.jpg

[TheHighwayMan3561]

And then, even if there was demand for it, you have the fact that Madison doesn't pay attention to anything north of WI 29 (or US 8).

As they should.  South is where the people are and where the growth is occurring. 

https://www.census.gov/2010census/news/img/cb11cn80_wi_perchange_2010map.jpg

Not to start a bitch fight over this, but I absolutely disagree. After living in Superior for four years it became pretty clear to me that people up there were justified in feeling like Madison forgets about them. There's a difference between appropriating the necessary resources for smaller populations, and simply ignoring them.

[SEWIGuy]

You do realize that Douglas County has less than 1% of the total population of the State of Wisconsin right? 

[peterj920]

Back when the Bong Bridge was built, how much did Superior want a bypass to be built?  Usually local politics dictates how highway projects get built.  I think there has been significant investment in Northwest Wisconsin.  US 53 is now an expressway between Superior and Eau Claire.  WIS 35 is being converted to a freeway between Hudson and River Falls.  Wis 64 is freeway/expressway between New Richmond and the soon to be completed New Stillwater Bridge, I-94 is in the process of being upgraded, and Wis 65 between New Richmond and I-94 is being studied to possibly be upgraded to an expressway.  Superior isn't the only "annoyance" when it comes to expressways being incomplete in urban areas.  US 10 in Stevens Point, Wis 26 in Janesville and Johnson Creek, and US 18/151 (Verona Rd) even though that area is slowly being worked on.  In the last few years, Wis 29 in Wausau and Green Bay, US 53 in Eau Claire, US 45 in Oshkosh were sites that were improved to have free flow traffic, so in the future those other sites may be.  The biggest problem with a US 2 bypass of Superior would be the amount of homes that would have to be demolished to connect to the Bong Bridge, and there would probably be local opposition to that. 

[SEWIGuy]

Exactly.  US-53 is a great example.  North of US-63, it really is overbuilt as a four-lane expressway.  The traffic counts on some stretches are 4,000 - 5,000 vpd.  Another example, UW-Superior is a four-year university that is constantly being subsidized by the UW System because its enrollments are so low.

If anything, Superior has benefited more than it really should have given its size.

[invincor]

Back when the Bong Bridge was built, how much did Superior want a bypass to be built?  Usually local politics dictates how highway projects get built.  I think there has been significant investment in Northwest Wisconsin.  US 53 is now an expressway between Superior and Eau Claire.  WIS 35 is being converted to a freeway between Hudson and River Falls.  Wis 64 is freeway/expressway between New Richmond and the soon to be completed New Stillwater Bridge, I-94 is in the process of being upgraded, and Wis 65 between New Richmond and I-94 is being studied to possibly be upgraded to an expressway. 

Ahem... we in the River Falls and surrounding areas do not think of ourselves as Northwest Wisconsin.  We're West Central Wisconsin.  I wouldn't apply the Northwest moniker to anywhere until at least the north side of US 8. 

[on_wisconsin]

Back when the Bong Bridge was built, how much did Superior want a bypass to be built?  Usually local politics dictates how highway projects get built.  I think there has been significant investment in Northwest Wisconsin.  US 53 is now an expressway between Superior and Eau Claire.  WIS 35 is being converted to a freeway between Hudson and River Falls.  Wis 64 is freeway/expressway between New Richmond and the soon to be completed New Stillwater Bridge, I-94 is in the process of being upgraded, and Wis 65 between New Richmond and I-94 is being studied to possibly be upgraded to an expressway. 

Ahem... we in the River Falls and surrounding areas do not think of ourselves as Northwest Wisconsin.  We're West Central Wisconsin.  I wouldn't apply the Northwest moniker to anywhere until at least the north side of US 8. 

^ This.

[WarrenWallace]

Not that it means much, but something I threw together cause I was interested.  According to the map on the WI DOT plans and studies page (http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/default.aspx), here is the population breakdown by region:

North Central     594,380
Northeast        1,081,812
Northwest          688,163
Southeast        2,039,003
Southwest       1,354,206

I wonder how the funding is broken down, is it proportional by population, by region, a mixture, etc?

[triplemultiplex]

Interesting to think Superior was the second largest city in Wisconsin 100 years ago.  It has lost almost half its population since then.  Check out a plat map from the city of Superior and you will see an ambitious paper street grid extending quite a ways into swampland.  They were prepared for growth that never materialized.

It's tough to say never, but given the population trends in Superior, a bypass does seem unlikely in the foreseeable future.  I've driven through on US 53 many times and it doesn't take that much time to get through town.  A bypass would have a high price tag for the limited benefit it would give to a low amount traffic.

Far from ignoring Superior, WisDOT has done a lot in recent years fixing up Tower Ave and Belknap St.  They have plans to add a little jughandle interchange right where US 2/53 enters town at Moccasin Mike Road.  (Awesome road name, by the way.)

[peterj920]

Right now the biggest concern in the Superior area has to be I-535.  Last I checked there was a weight limit posted on the Blatnik Bridge, and it's because the bridge is an aging steel truss bridge.  In the next 25 years or even sooner, the bridge is going to have to be replaced, and I'm guessing that it isn't going to be cheap.  By looking at the WIS and MN DOT websites and the bridge parapets, I notice that MNDOT is primarily responsible for the Blatnik Bridge while WISDOT is responsible for the Bong Bridge.  THE Blatnik Bridge rehab project was on the MNDOT website, while the Bong Bridge rehab project was listed on the WISDOT website.  The bridge parapets on the Bong Bridge are unique to Wisconsin, and I notice that they're also used on the interchange ramps with I-35.   Are the costs for maintaining the bridges split, or do the DOTs take care of the bridges they take a lead on?  If the Blatnik Bridge gets to the point where it's unusable, will it be rebuilt or will the Bong Bridge become the only crossing between Duluth and Superior?

[Roadguy]

Right now the biggest concern in the Superior area has to be I-535.  Last I checked there was a weight limit posted on the Blatnik Bridge, and it's because the bridge is an aging steel truss bridge.  In the next 25 years or even sooner, the bridge is going to have to be replaced, and I'm guessing that it isn't going to be cheap.  By looking at the WIS and MN DOT websites and the bridge parapets, I notice that MNDOT is primarily responsible for the Blatnik Bridge while WISDOT is responsible for the Bong Bridge.  THE Blatnik Bridge rehab project was on the MNDOT website, while the Bong Bridge rehab project was listed on the WISDOT website.  The bridge parapets on the Bong Bridge are unique to Wisconsin, and I notice that they're also used on the interchange ramps with I-35.   Are the costs for maintaining the bridges split, or do the DOTs take care of the bridges they take a lead on?  If the Blatnik Bridge gets to the point where it's unusable, will it be rebuilt or will the Bong Bridge become the only crossing between Duluth and Superior?

For crossings between WI and MN, each state pays half of the cost for the bridge structure.  They pay their own costs for any approach work up to the bridge.  WI and MN tend to alternate who oversees and constructs crossings (14/61 is WisDOT although the border is a side channel, 90 is MnDOT, Winona is MnDOT although the border is a side channel, Wabasha is WisDOT, Red Wing is MnDOT, Prescott is WisDOT, 94 is WisDOT, 36 is MnDOT, 2 is WiSDOT, 535 is MnDOT). 

Especially with the recent replacements for many of the crossings you can see what styles of bridges each DOT prefers as well.  MnDOT prefers more of the prestressed concrete box segment bridges like the 35W bridge while WisDOT prefers more steel arch bridges like the Hoan Bridge.  You can even tell the differences in who built it typically by the light poles as well, note the different styles between the Blatnik and Bong bridges.

When the Blatnik eventually needs to get replaced (I expect due to high costs they may look at additional rehab and leave replacement as a last resort), they will find the money to do it.  Just for emergency purposes alone, there needs to be the two crossings.  But today it would probably be well over $750 million to replace it.  So it will probably require special allocations by both states through the legislature and governor to fund it as neither DOT has that money sitting around.

[peterj920]

Right now the biggest concern in the Superior area has to be I-535.  Last I checked there was a weight limit posted on the Blatnik Bridge, and it's because the bridge is an aging steel truss bridge.  In the next 25 years or even sooner, the bridge is going to have to be replaced, and I'm guessing that it isn't going to be cheap.  By looking at the WIS and MN DOT websites and the bridge parapets, I notice that MNDOT is primarily responsible for the Blatnik Bridge while WISDOT is responsible for the Bong Bridge.  THE Blatnik Bridge rehab project was on the MNDOT website, while the Bong Bridge rehab project was listed on the WISDOT website.  The bridge parapets on the Bong Bridge are unique to Wisconsin, and I notice that they're also used on the interchange ramps with I-35.   Are the costs for maintaining the bridges split, or do the DOTs take care of the bridges they take a lead on?  If the Blatnik Bridge gets to the point where it's unusable, will it be rebuilt or will the Bong Bridge become the only crossing between Duluth and Superior?

For crossings between WI and MN, each state pays half of the cost for the bridge structure.  They pay their own costs for any approach work up to the bridge.  WI and MN tend to alternate who oversees and constructs crossings (14/61 is WisDOT although the border is a side channel, 90 is MnDOT, Winona is MnDOT although the border is a side channel, Wabasha is WisDOT, Red Wing is MnDOT, Prescott is WisDOT, 94 is WisDOT, 36 is MnDOT, 2 is WiSDOT, 535 is MnDOT). 

Especially with the recent replacements for many of the crossings you can see what styles of bridges each DOT prefers as well.  MnDOT prefers more of the prestressed concrete box segment bridges like the 35W bridge while WisDOT prefers more steel arch bridges like the Hoan Bridge.  You can even tell the differences in who built it typically by the light poles as well, note the different styles between the Blatnik and Bong bridges.

When the Blatnik eventually needs to get replaced (I expect due to high costs they may look at additional rehab and leave replacement as a last resort), they will find the money to do it.  Just for emergency purposes alone, there needs to be the two crossings.  But today it would probably be well over $750 million to replace it.  So it will probably require special allocations by both states through the legislature and governor to fund it as neither DOT has that money sitting around.

Find it interesting that the bridges that WISDOT oversees are newer and in a lot better shape than the bridges that MNDOT oversees.  Aside from the new MN 36/WIS 64 Bridge that is set to open, all of the other bridges mentioned that MNDOT oversees are probably going to need to be replaced or undergo a major rehab.  All of the structures that WISDOT takes the lead in that are mentioned are in great shape and will last a long time. 

[mgk920]

Is the bridge that connects Oliver, WI (west end of WI 105) with the Fond du Lac neighborhood in Duluth, MN still privately owned (Canadian National)?

Mike

[peterj920]

Is the bridge that connects Oliver, WI (west end of WI 105) with the Fond du Lac neighborhood in Duluth, MN still privately owned (Canadian National)?

Mike

According to MNDOT, CN does own the bridge.  But WISDOT and MNDOT paid to rehab the deck in 2000 for vehicular traffic.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/historicbridges/6544.html

[GeekJedi]

It looks like 70 MPH may be coming to the WI-16 freeway between I-94 and Oconomowoc. Driving in the area today, I noticed that there are now freshly planted second posts placed next to the current posts holding the 65 MPH signs. They could be just installing new 65 MPH signs using what appears to be the new "2-post" standard, but I don't see WisDOT doing that out of the blue.

[peterj920]

I'll have to check if they're doing the same thing for US 41/141 north of Green Bay

[SSOWorld]

It looks like 70 MPH may be coming to the WI-16 freeway between I-94 and Oconomowoc. Driving in the area today, I noticed that there are now freshly planted second posts placed next to the current posts holding the 65 MPH signs. They could be just installing new 65 MPH signs using what appears to be the new "2-post" standard, but I don't see WisDOT doing that out of the blue.

Not when they delay projects to make a political move