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Started by Alex, September 07, 2009, 12:04:39 AM

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swake

What is the difference between a COG and a MPO?


bwana39

#126
Quote from: swake on December 30, 2023, 01:56:45 PM
What is the difference between a COG and a MPO?

COG is a Council of Governments. It generally covers rural counties and regional feeder hub counties.   They generally cover several counties that the aggregate population is less than a million.

A MPO is a Municipal Planning Organization. It generally serves a single county or even a single city. They are GENERALLY in cities or counties if 250,000 thousand or more. Sometimes they extend to the suburbs and or adjacent counties that are in the same metropolitan area. 

Larger counties may belong to both.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Rothman



Quote from: bwana39 on December 30, 2023, 02:28:17 PM
Quote from: swake on December 30, 2023, 01:56:45 PM
What is the difference between a COG and a MPO?

COG is a Council of Governments. It generally covers rural counties and regional feeder hub counties.   They generally cover several counties that the aggregate population is less than a million.

A MPO is a Municipal Planning Organization. It generally serves a single county or even a single city. They are GENERALLY in cities or counties if 250,000 thousand or more. Sometimes they extend to the suburbs and or adjacent counties that are in the same metropolitan area. 

Larger counties may belong to both.

As I stated above, every federally-recognized urbanized area of 50,000 people or more has to have an MPO.

(mutters about people answering questions only knowing half the answer since he's grumpy today)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Rothman

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 30, 2023, 10:55:03 AM
I would imagine to some extent MPO's work differently in states with bigger populations. I know that sounds crazy but I do think this will help Enid.
Depends on how ODOT changes any federal-aid suballocation to the area because of the MPO.

Could go either way.  Sometimes, communities are better off not joining an MPO:  Let's say you're a little suburb or county that borders a big MPO with a big city and county in it.  As it stands right now, the DOT could actually look out for you on its own whenever you raise a fuss about something.  If the MPO expands its MPA and absorbs you in, now you have to compete with that big city and county for federal funding, when your lesser experience and ability with delivering federal projects probably puts you at a disadvantage.

I'd even to as far to say that choosing not to join an MPO and expanding its MPA actually sometimes gives a community leverage with a DOT that does not want to have to deal with the TIP process to have projects funded.  In other words, a community could say, "I'm going to choose to expand the MPA with the MPO unless you give me X, Y and Z, DOT..."

The politics can get quite complicated.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

swake

Quote from: bwana39 on December 30, 2023, 02:28:17 PM
Quote from: swake on December 30, 2023, 01:56:45 PM
What is the difference between a COG and a MPO?

COG is a Council of Governments. It generally covers rural counties and regional feeder hub counties.   They generally cover several counties that the aggregate population is less than a million.

A MPO is a Municipal Planning Organization. It generally serves a single county or even a single city. They are GENERALLY in cities or counties if 250,000 thousand or more. Sometimes they extend to the suburbs and or adjacent counties that are in the same metropolitan area. 

Larger counties may belong to both.

I guess I am just confused because Tulsa's planning org is called "Indian Nations Council of Governments" or INCOG. 

zzcarp

Quote from: swake on December 30, 2023, 08:48:15 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on December 30, 2023, 02:28:17 PM
Quote from: swake on December 30, 2023, 01:56:45 PM
What is the difference between a COG and a MPO?

COG is a Council of Governments. It generally covers rural counties and regional feeder hub counties.   They generally cover several counties that the aggregate population is less than a million.

A MPO is a Municipal Planning Organization. It generally serves a single county or even a single city. They are GENERALLY in cities or counties if 250,000 thousand or more. Sometimes they extend to the suburbs and or adjacent counties that are in the same metropolitan area. 

Larger counties may belong to both.

I guess I am just confused because Tulsa's planning org is called "Indian Nations Council of Governments" or INCOG.

A COG can act as an MPO as well; it just doesn't have to do so.

From your INCOG example:

QuoteTransportation Planning and Programs. INCOG is the Metropolitan Planning Organization (MPO) for the Tulsa area. As such, INCOG facilitates a cooperative effort with federal, state, and local governments and other transportation agencies to assess the area's transportation requirements and to develop comprehensive, multi-modal plans and programs that address the needs and goals of the region.{/quote]
So many miles and so many roads

Ted$8roadFan


Scott5114

Oklahoma's constitution requires that any tax increase pass both houses of the Legislature with a 3/4 majority. That's a higher threshold than is required in the Senate to remove an impeached President from office. Not happening any time soon.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

rte66man

Bobby5280, here is some good news for you:





When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Bobby5280

At least that's some progress on the red tape side of things. I don't know how many more months it will take for the winning bid to be chosen and for actual construction to begin.

rte66man

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 23, 2024, 01:48:40 PM
At least that's some progress on the red tape side of things. I don't know how many more months it will take for the winning bid to be chosen and for actual construction to begin.

It was awarded November 16:

Quote
Contract Amt:$2,415,000.00 Contractor: Haskell Lemon Group, LLC
Oklahoma City, OK
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

rte66man

When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Bobby5280

#137
I knew they were planning some kind of "band-aid" project for Rogers Lane. The document you linked confirms the modest details.

The storage bay extension for left turn lanes at the 38th Street intersection could only be an interim solution. This is ODOT's response for traffic back-ups that extend up the hillside both East and West of the intersection. Other vehicles crest over the hill and suddenly see a traffic jam and can't hit the brakes in time. BOOM.

The 38th Street & Rogers Lane intersection absolutely needs to be replaced with a freeway style exit.

The hooded left turns along Rogers Lane won't do too awful much to improve safety. They'll help in one respect by blocking traffic from taking at-grade left turns out of neighborhoods where the visibility is low. But vehicles bolting out to take a right turn into Rogers Lane can pose just as much a hazard.

Anyone can look at overhead Google Earth imagery and see the ample amount of vacant land next to the North edge of Rogers Lane and Lawton.  Between the Sheridan Road and Fort Sill Blvd exits it's easy to see how the Rogers Lane main lanes veer off to the South rather than go straight like they would if it was a real freeway. Driving on Rogers Lane between Sheridan Road and Fort Sill Blvd feels like driving on a frontage road, not a highway.

The Army bulldozed a dirt boundary road on their side of the fence that left quite a bit of space between their fence line and that dirt road. The Army and Federal highway agencies just need to have a damned conversation. Sign some papers and move that fence North about 150'. That would at least open the possibility however distant it might be that Rogers Lane can be fixed properly.

Plutonic Panda


Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Scott5114

Quote from: Rothman on February 05, 2024, 06:25:30 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2024, 06:23:04 PM
What a fucking joke.

https://clients.freese.com/ODT20738/
Huh?

Rogers Lane being a fucking joke (and apparently continuing to be so) is an ongoing sore spot amongst the Oklahoma delegation.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 05, 2024, 06:31:43 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 05, 2024, 06:25:30 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2024, 06:23:04 PM
What a fucking joke.

https://clients.freese.com/ODT20738/
Huh?

Rogers Lane being a fucking joke (and apparently continuing to be so) is an ongoing sore spot amongst the Oklahoma delegation.
It's horrible. I don't really understand why ODOT is even doing this. Why not just save the money towards actual improvements? They clearly haven't cared for the last two decades about it. This seems like a project that should have been included with the original road(assuming it was built at the same time the army base was). Oklahoma really needs to invest a bit more in Lawton.

Scott5114

I think it would be more surprising if ODOT did something we did understand.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Bobby5280

The current version of Rogers Lane was built in the 1988-92 time frame. A two-lane street and dirt road divided Fort Sill and Lawton prior to that time.

I think it will probably take a multi-fatality accident on Rogers Lane to get the attention of any "lawmakers" in the state capitol. And even then they'll probably just offer more table scraps than anything of substance.

Chances of multi-fatality accidents on Rogers Lane are going to increase in the years ahead. ODOT has a project in the works to add a new freeway exit on US-62 to connect with a North extension of Goodyear Blvd. The Lawton area is home to Goodyear's largest tire production facility. Several other companies operate industrial facilities out West by Goodyear's plant. A cobalt refining facility is probably going to be built out there. Right now most trucks head out of Lawton going South on 82nd Street to OK-36 and then I-44. 82nd Street is horrible. Trucks are getting damaged using it. When that new exit on US-62 opens it's going to route a whole lot more trucks onto Rogers Lane. Certain intersections such as 38th Street will become more dangerous.

Our state's elected officials love to wrap themselves in the American flag. But they really don't do much for communities with large military populations. Lawton probably has a higher percentage of active duty and retired military people than any other city in Oklahoma. Yet it gets neglected by the state big time. Not just on streets and highways either. Lawton really gets screwed on public education funding. I was raised as a "Marine Corps brat" and attended grade schools on Marine bases at some of the duty stations where we lived. DOD-operated schools were pretty much always better than schools off base. So it's kind of surprising to me that the Army doesn't already have its own K-12 schools on Fort Sill. Lawton's school district educates the military kids but routinely gets stiffed on "impact aid" from the feds. People in Edmond will laugh and say, "why can't you guys in Lawton do something about your schools?" Those people need such a slap.

brad2971

#144
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 05, 2024, 08:21:11 PM
The current version of Rogers Lane was built in the 1988-92 time frame. A two-lane street and dirt road divided Fort Sill and Lawton prior to that time.

I think it will probably take a multi-fatality accident on Rogers Lane to get the attention of any "lawmakers" in the state capitol. And even then they'll probably just offer more table scraps than anything of substance.

Chances of multi-fatality accidents on Rogers Lane are going to increase in the years ahead. ODOT has a project in the works to add a new freeway exit on US-62 to connect with a North extension of Goodyear Blvd. The Lawton area is home to Goodyear's largest tire production facility. Several other companies operate industrial facilities out West by Goodyear's plant. A cobalt refining facility is probably going to be built out there. Right now most trucks head out of Lawton going South on 82nd Street to OK-36 and then I-44. 82nd Street is horrible. Trucks are getting damaged using it. When that new exit on US-62 opens it's going to route a whole lot more trucks onto Rogers Lane. Certain intersections such as 38th Street will become more dangerous.

Our state's elected officials love to wrap themselves in the American flag. But they really don't do much for communities with large military populations. Lawton probably has a higher percentage of active duty and retired military people than any other city in Oklahoma. Yet it gets neglected by the state big time. Not just on streets and highways either. Lawton really gets screwed on public education funding. I was raised as a "Marine Corps brat" and attended grade schools on Marine bases at some of the duty stations where we lived. DOD-operated schools were pretty much always better than schools off base. So it's kind of surprising to me that the Army doesn't already have its own K-12 schools on Fort Sill. Lawton's school district educates the military kids but routinely gets stiffed on "impact aid" from the feds. People in Edmond will laugh and say, "why can't you guys in Lawton do something about your schools?" Those people need such a slap.

DODEA very likely doesn't operate schools on Ft. Sill because, unlike places like Fort Liberty (NC), there weren't that many issues with school segregation in Lawton Public Schools that would cause DODEA to operate their own on-base schools.

As for the alleged "inadequate" condition of Rogers Lane/US 62: Unless the US Army plans to greatly expand artillery training and artillery host units on post, there's not much justification for additional exits or freewayizing the road. With Ft. Sill having a direct I-44 exit, the justification for additional exits on Rogers Ln. becomes even less.

Plutonic Panda

They really need to at least make the intersections grade separated. Hell a super two would probably be better than a four lane road with at grade intersections and substandard designs. ODOT also really should get on the ball with a SW super two as well.

Bobby5280

Fort Sill has been expanded quite a lot over the past 20 years. One of the more recent additions was the Air Defense Artillery School. People at Fort Bliss fought like hell to keep the ADA school from moving. The Counter UAS program (drones) is moving from Yuma to Fort Sill. It's likely more missions will be relocated to Fort Sill due to the lower cost of living and lower cost of doing business.

Let's also remember Lawton is not a small town. There is nearly 100,000 people living within the city limits. Rogers Lane has the US-62 designation now (US-62 used to be routed on Cache Road). US-62 goes out to the growing town of Cache (cough: white flight) as well as Altus and the Air Force Base there. As I said earlier, the industrial park on Lawton's West side will be directly connected into US-62 via a new exit. That will equal a bunch of trucks using Rogers Lane that aren't using it currently.

Speaking of Fort Sill's access to I-44, it could be better. The old Key Gate exit (exit 41) is pretty damn old. The bridges carrying the main lanes have no shoulders. Pretty much all of I-44 as it passes by the Polo Field is obsolete, not up to current standards. ODOT modified the Rogers Lane/I-44 exit. But the changes aren't all that great. They've already had a good number of wipe-outs on that new loop ramp from Northbound I-44 to Westbound Rogers Lane. Exiting traffic is on a long, straight exit lane that suddenly ends at a 25mph loop. Anyone taking that exit ramp and not paying good attention could have a wreck.

Plutonic Panda

US-412 and US-81 in Enid are due to be reconstructed with ADA improvements in 2028 and 2031, respectively.

https://www.publicinput.com/us-412enid#tab-47951

MikieTimT

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 20, 2024, 09:18:01 PM
US-412 and US-81 in Enid are due to be reconstructed with ADA improvements in 2028 and 2031, respectively.

https://www.publicinput.com/us-412enid#tab-47951

Probably right about the time they get a mess of those rideshare scooters distributed about town.  Seems to be the most common use of sidewalks and ramps in nearly every town.

Scott5114

OTA will have to get a new director, and Stitt will have to get a new Transportation Secretary, because Tim Gatz doing all three at the same time was apparently illegal (despite Gary Ridley and Neal McCaleb having held the trifecta too).

https://nondoc.com/2024/02/28/ag-opinion-prompts-odot-director-tim-gatz-to-resign-as-cabinet-secretary-ota-director/
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef



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