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[kphoger]

Why can't she deposit the cash into her bank account and just write a check to the IRS?

Or is that money laundering?  And if so, then isn't the US government just laundering money later the way it is?

[Scott5114]

Why can't she deposit the cash into her bank account and just write a check to the IRS?

The budtender I mentioned can and does do so. That's fine because that's her personal money. The suitcase-full-of-$20s I mentioned above is the business paying taxes to the IRS.

Or is that money laundering? 

Yes.

And if so, then isn't the US government just laundering money later the way it is?

"Well, when the government does it, that means it is not illegal." —Richard Nixon, sort of

[kphoger]

Why can't she deposit the cash into her bank account and just write a check to the IRS?

The budtender I mentioned can and does do so. That's fine because that's her personal money. The suitcase-full-of-$20s I mentioned above is the business paying taxes to the IRS.

Ah, OK.  By "they" you meant "the businesses paying corporate tax", but I interpreted "they" as "the employees paying income tax".

I was looking back over the thread and saw this:

....  It's customary to pick a denomination that covers the amount required while requiring smallest amount of change in return.  ....

I’m curious where you got that idea. I’ve never heard of any such "custom," and in fact when I see people using cash most of the time they’ll just pull out a $20, presumably because that’s the most common denomination dispensed by ATMs. (That does vary by bank, though. The Bank of America near our house offers $20s and $100s, whereas the Burke and Herbert next door to that is $20s only. Citibank downtown used to offer $20s and $50s, though I don’t know whether that’s still the case. The Capital One in Springfield lets you select denominations, including $10s and $5s.) If it were "customary" to use the denomination closest to the purchase price, I might expect to see more $10s and $5s in use, depending of course on the particular business and the sort of purchase being made.

The really fun thing for marijuana businesses is that while they're still taxed on their income, as any business is, every single one of their expenses is denied a write-off because it's classed as "criminal activity" ... And yeah, to pay the taxes, they have to show up at the IRS office with a suitcase full of $20s.

Why can't they use $100s?

Their customers pay in $20s, and they're not allowed to go to the bank to change them out.

Well, I guess it's fortunate they don't all pay with ones, fives, tens, and small coins—you know, as is common custom!

[Scott5114]

The skew toward $20s is undoubtedly because the credit card system will not do business with the dispensary at all. Naturally, a separate business entity has set up an ATM either in the store or nearby that customers are directed to whenever they have no cash on them. I would imagine this business makes a killing in ATM fees.

I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

[bugo]

This video shows the infamous Deathramp, which was a very short, scary ramp from 51st Street (which was a two way road east of Utica) to eastbound I-44 in Tulsa.

This video shows a short section of the original I-44 underneath Lewis.

[bugo]

Which explains why the 3 worst groups of BGS signage are all associated with OTA (this one, the ones at US169 east of this one, and the atrocious sign on US81 in Chickasha for eastbound 44 (HE Bailey).

This?

[bugo]

Yeah, people start companies because they want to make a profit, I get it, whatever. Even if you're cool with that (I'm not) then it also runs into the problem of the right of free association popping up. Say this whole system wants nothing to do with you for whatever reason—maybe you run a business that's not socially palatable, or you publicly said something stupid nobody liked, or you work in marijuana (which is illegal federally and so is legally barred from the banking system). Now you can't pay for anything or get paid at all. Cash still works—I've got a business partner that works at a retail dispensary and they just pull a bunch of $20s out of the safe and hand them to her every week, and that's her "paycheck".

Speaking of dispensaries, one thing you might not be aware of is that most dispensaries, at least in Oklahoma, have tip jars. I usually tip $1. I have also used my debit card at a dispensary. I don't know how it works, but some dispensaries somehow do it. I think one of them was some sort of an ATM. Hopefully it will be federally legal soon enough and we can get rid of prohibition once and for all.

[Scott5114]

Speaking of dispensaries, one thing you might not be aware of is that most dispensaries, at least in Oklahoma, have tip jars. I usually tip $1. I have also used my debit card at a dispensary. I don't know how it works, but some dispensaries somehow do it. I think one of them was some sort of an ATM. Hopefully it will be federally legal soon enough and we can get rid of prohibition once and for all.

I'd tip too—a good budtender would be quite knowledgeable about the various strains and which are likely to give the results the patient desires. That kind of knowledge can be really helpful. I'm working on starting up a cultivation business with a couple friends/business partners—the one mentioned above is working in the dispensary for the time being to pay the bills and also to help us learn what things look like from the dispensary side so we can sell our product more effectively.

I think the way the debit card in a dispensary thing works is that technically the money doesn't go to a regulated bank, but to an unregulated third-party company that offers credit to the dispensary and the credit card payment pays it off or something like that? I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole if I was a dispensary, but I guess some of them have decided that's a good enough competitive advantage that it's worth the risk. Likewise, you can't get a traditional bank loan as a cannabis business, but there are companies that exist, funded with private capital, that will do a line of credit. The interest rates are, as you'd expect, ghastly.

Even if cannabis isn't legalized, there's a chance that the banking side of it might get normalized first. There's a bill called the Safe Banking Act that passed the House last session that would do nothing in terms of legalizing marijuana, but would make it so that cannabis was exempted from being considered "illegal activity" under banking regulations. None of us are particularly fussed about the cash situation, since we all worked in a casino before this (and my two partners even worked in the vault, so dealing with even seven-figure amounts of cash doesn't faze them) but it would be nice to be able to get loans the usual way and to write checks to pay contractors.

[SoonerCowboy]

It has been so long since I've used cash that I can't remember the last time I used it.

Cash is so 20th Century.

Me and my wife rarely use cash too, except for the casino, or the dispensary. I have yet to see a dispensary, that accepted a debit card. Most have an ATM, but that's it.

[Bobby5280]

Wow. That Creek Turnpike sign is truly awful. The sign panel needs to another 3-4 feet taller and 4 or more feet wider to allow for proper letter spacing and line spacing. I guess the OTA just didn't want to spend that kind of money. Ugh.

[1]

I thought I remembered that specific sign having multiple font sizes and spacing on the sign. Did they fix that aspect of it, or am I thinking of a different sign?

[kphoger]

I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

How do they get quarters to begin with?

[rte66man]

Which explains why the 3 worst groups of BGS signage are all associated with OTA (this one, the ones at US169 east of this one, and the atrocious sign on US81 in Chickasha for eastbound 44 (HE Bailey).

This?

And this one:


and this one:

[Scott5114]

I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

How do they get quarters to begin with?

This question bothered me so I asked. It sounds like the business lends managers a certain amount of money they are required to keep in their personal bank accounts for this purpose. Whenever the store needs small change, the managers supply it out of that money ("hey, can you stop and get us some quarters on your way in today?"). I would imagine in the case of a termination or resignation they have to repay the "loan".

I don't envy their accounting department.

[CtrlAltDel]

This video shows the infamous Deathramp, which was a very short, scary ramp from 51st Street (which was a two way road east of Utica) to eastbound I-44 in Tulsa.

I can't believe that they tore down that big building (that comes into view at about 0:25) as part of the widening process. Maybe it was old and falling apart, but it didn't come across that way on Street View.

[Bobby5280]

I thought I remembered that specific sign having multiple font sizes and spacing on the sign. Did they fix that aspect of it, or am I thinking of a different sign?

You might be thinking of a different sign. At least I pray that's the case. If the example above turned out to be a "fix" for a bad sign layout it would be clear the OTA wouldn't know a proper highway sign layout if they saw one.

[rte66man]

This video shows the infamous Deathramp, which was a very short, scary ramp from 51st Street (which was a two way road east of Utica) to eastbound I-44 in Tulsa.

I can't believe that they tore down that big building (that comes into view at about 0:25) as part of the widening process. Maybe it was old and falling apart, but it didn't come across that way on Street View.

It was an old bank building (forgot which one).  Access was terrible and there was no parking to speak of. IIRC, it was nearly empty when ODOT announced the widening. I suspect the owners were thrilled to sell.

Man, watching that video brought back memories. I used to live at 55th and Lewis and ended up using that exact loop nearly every day heading to work. I drove a 77 Plymouth Arrow and I was very glad it had great acceleration.

[skluth]

I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

How do they get quarters to begin with?

I delivered papers as a kid. It was entirely a cash business. I regularly had to get rolls of dimes and quarters from the bank because few of my customers paid in exact change. Customer service may be limited in banks these days (both pre- and post-COVID), but it's not a big deal to bring bills into a bank and exchange it for rolls of change.

[Scott5114]

I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

How do they get quarters to begin with?

I delivered papers as a kid. It was entirely a cash business. I regularly had to get rolls of dimes and quarters from the bank because few of my customers paid in exact change. Customer service may be limited in banks these days (both pre- and post-COVID), but it's not a big deal to bring bills into a bank and exchange it for rolls of change.

It is a big deal if you are a dispensary—marijuana is federally illegal and banks are not allowed to do business with organizations known to be committing federal crimes. And the banks are required to make it their business to find out the source of income for money changing hands through the bank.

You could probably go in and buy a roll of quarters every now and then and nobody would notice/care, but if someone notices your transactions adding up to more than a few hundred dollars, they're going to start asking questions, and if you're honest with them you'll probably be politely told that the bank is not going to do business with you any more.

[rte66man]

I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

How do they get quarters to begin with?

I delivered papers as a kid. It was entirely a cash business. I regularly had to get rolls of dimes and quarters from the bank because few of my customers paid in exact change. Customer service may be limited in banks these days (both pre- and post-COVID), but it's not a big deal to bring bills into a bank and exchange it for rolls of change.

It is a big deal if you are a dispensary—marijuana is federally illegal and banks are not allowed to do business with organizations known to be committing federal crimes. And the banks are required to make it their business to find out the source of income for money changing hands through the bank.

You could probably go in and buy a roll of quarters every now and then and nobody would notice/care, but if someone notices your transactions adding up to more than a few hundred dollars, they're going to start asking questions, and if you're honest with them you'll probably be politely told that the bank is not going to do business with you any more.

How many rolls of quarters do you need?  Even given the strictly cash basis of these stores, I can't see needing more than 7-8 rolls a week. My experience has been if I walked into my bank and asked for 10 rolls of quarters and paid with 5 $20 bills, they wouldn't care what I needed them for.

[Scott5114]

Well, that's also your bank. You have an established relationship with them. They've done the due diligence with you and know enough about you to know that you run little risk of being a money launderer. 

For what it's worth, when I worked the cash cage in a casino (which falls under the same regulations the banks use) the threshold for caring was not much higher than the amount that you mentioned. If they needed $1s and $5s too they could easily hit that limit. And if you split that transaction into smaller transactions to stay under the limit, that's called "structuring" and they're supposed to report that too.

[bugo]

Wow. That Creek Turnpike sign is truly awful. The sign panel needs to another 3-4 feet taller and 4 or more feet wider to allow for proper letter spacing and line spacing. I guess the OTA just didn't want to spend that kind of money. Ugh.

This is on EB US 64/NB US 169/E along the "free" section of the Creek Turnpike, which was built and is maintained by ODOT. This sign could have been created by either ODOT or the OTA, because both agencies are notoriously terrible.

[bugo]

I have no idea what the dispensary does when they run out of, say, quarters.

How do they get quarters to begin with?

Dispensaries usually buy flower by the pound. The dispensaries that have prepackaged flower divide the pound into 16 ounces, then divide those ounces into 4 quarters. They also package raw by the gram, and sometimes by the half ounce or other weights. All of the dispensaries that I go to have jars behind the counter so you can actually see and smell the flower that you are actually buying, and not a sample that was the very best bud in the whole batch. Since the coronavirus is a thing, instead of smelling the weed in the jars, I use my hand to waft the smell towards me so I don't stick my nose into the jar and potentially contaminating the product. The dispensary nearest me doesn't enforce the mask policy, and the budtenders don't wear masks, so I don't usually go there.

Speaking of potential contamination, about a year and a half or two years ago, well before the pandemic, a dispensary in Oklahoma City was offering free dabs. Every patient who came in got a free dab hit from the same rig. Every time somebody used it, they would wipe it down with alcohol so the next person could hit it. That would be unimaginable today.

[Scott5114]

kphoger and I were talking about how the dispensaries get these.

[okroads]

Cashless tolling on the Kilpatrick Turnpike began this morning (July 25): https://www.koco.com/article/cashless-tolling-begins-on-kilpatrick-turnpike/37123598