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Author Topic: Proposed US 412 Upgrade  (Read 27465 times)

edwaleni

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2021, 04:15:44 PM »

Arkansas Senators John Boozman and Tom Cotton plus Senator Jim Inhoffe of Oklahoma are proposing an upgrade
US 412 as an interstate Highway from I-35 to I-49.

I don't see why it's needed. Looks to me they are wasting time and effort .


I have posted on here for several years about how US 412 should be a continuation of I-22. Any new Bridge in Memphis should be the I-22 bridge along with I-555 with a Southern bypass of Jonesboro to meet up with an upgraded AR 226. Connect NWA with NEA without Conway/Little Rock and then to Memphis.  Make the exiting part through Jonesboro a 3di to I-22 and curve it up the eastern side to Paragould. A situation not unlike Fort Smith with 549.

I have traveled the I-22 route many times and I do agree with the idea that I-555 is essentially a NE/SE extension of I-22.

However, my drive usually takes me to Springfield, MO and I use US-63 through West Plains & Willow Springs to get to US-60 for the 4 lane trip. (Hence my many drives through Imboden, Hardy, etc.)

Even if I was driving to/from Tulsa, I would take the Muskogee Turnpike to/from I-40, not go by way of US-412 from Memphis.

As for an idea of using the Cimmaron to Enid as a sort of extension, it looks good on paper, because it creates an alternate E-W interstate routing with a bridge at Dyersburg over the Mississippi to reach the east coast with, one that US-60 does not have today at Cairo.

I don't have a clear understanding what drives US-412 traffic today between Tulsa and NWA. Commerce? Tribal Casinos?  I would think OKDOT would be more interested in connectivity of US-69 in the Dallas-KCMO route then be looking for another eastern gateway.
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2021, 06:56:08 PM »

Merged the threads and put them in Central States, since all but 22 miles of it is in Oklahoma at this time.

I don't have a clear understanding what drives US-412 traffic today between Tulsa and NWA. Commerce? Tribal Casinos?  I would think OKDOT would be more interested in connectivity of US-69 in the Dallas-KCMO route then be looking for another eastern gateway.

Commerce. Tulsa is a major city, and NWA is a major metro area that developed by surprise after the ink was dry on the Interstate System plans (home to Walmart and Tyson Foods, both major companies). So the motivation here is no different than that for I-11 (completing a missing link between adjacent major metros). NWA benefits by having a quicker path to the southwest and south in I-44, and a quicker path to the north and northwest via I-35. Oklahoma benefits by having more traffic passing through and by having easier access to the I-49 corridor.

Also, note that it isn't ODOT that is the big push behind this, it's the Senators. Most of the affected roadway is under OTA jurisdiction anyway.

Much of the heavy lifting is done on Oklahoma's side (four-lane ROW secured, just needs some polish by upgrading the remaining at-grades and cleaning up things like the median on the Cimarron). I'm a little surprised that Inhofe didn't get a tad more ambitious and run it as far west as US-81 in Enid. I'm also kind of surprised that Sen. James Lankford (R-OK) didn't sign on too, but he's from OKC so I guess he doesn't care about this particular project so much.
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In_Correct

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2021, 10:49:29 PM »

Perhaps they will proceed with the west side of it after the east side of it is upgraded.
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Revive 755

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2021, 11:15:06 PM »

The only sensible number for this would be I-46. (48 would work too, but it will have a short concurrency with 44, so 48 is too high, and 42 is taken)

While I-46 would make sense, I suspect it could - barring any duplicate state routes - anything from 46 to 58.  It will probably be something that has the highest chance of messing up the grid in regards to other future expansions.
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2021, 11:41:53 PM »

The only sensible number for this would be I-46. (48 would work too, but it will have a short concurrency with 44, so 48 is too high, and 42 is taken)

While I-46 would make sense, I suspect it could - barring any duplicate state routes - anything from 46 to 58. 

Ha! You think Oklahoma or Arkansas care about that? Oklahoma has three 9As and Arkansas has eight 74s!
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Tom958

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2021, 05:36:53 AM »

Disagree with your last part.  An Interstate-standard US 412 between the OK/AR line and I-49 would be  rather difficult to build due to topography and development both along and away from the existing roadway.

But there is a proposed /under construction 412 bypass of which AR 612 is a part.

It's not at all obvious to me why AR 612 was built. It's pretty far north of Springdale, further north of Fayetteville, and pointed further north still. I would think that the proposed Interstate ought to be headed toward the region's center of gravity, near where US 412 is now, with distribution north and south via I-49.

So, has ArDOT done any sort of feasibility study for this?
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Wayward Memphian

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2021, 09:23:59 AM »

Disagree with your last part.  An Interstate-standard US 412 between the OK/AR line and I-49 would be  rather difficult to build due to topography and development both along and away from the existing roadway.

But there is a proposed /under construction 412 bypass of which AR 612 is a part.

It's not at all obvious to me why AR 612 was built. It's pretty far north of Springdale, further north of Fayetteville, and pointed further north still. I would think that the proposed Interstate ought to be headed toward the region's center of gravity, near where US 412 is now, with distribution north and south via I-49.

So, has ArDOT done any sort of feasibility study for this?

Drive US 412 through Springdale at 5pm and you'll get it.


AR 612 is the future center mass. It is essentially the Washington/Benton County line.  It is where the growth from the south and north are converging and had the most open space to build it.

I'll say it again,  all of this should be dedicated as an extention of I-22 from North MS.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 09:26:11 AM by Wayward Memphian »
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2021, 09:33:58 AM »

I don't know why letting it stand on its own as a new number is a problem. It may well never connect to the Memphis area. Arkansas's senators support the measure, but they chose to end it at I-49 rather than try to get funding to continue it east.
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froggie

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2021, 10:16:38 AM »

Disagree with your last part.  An Interstate-standard US 412 between the OK/AR line and I-49 would be  rather difficult to build due to topography and development both along and away from the existing roadway.

But there is a proposed /under construction 412 bypass of which AR 612 is a part.

It's not at all obvious to me why AR 612 was built. It's pretty far north of Springdale, further north of Fayetteville, and pointed further north still. I would think that the proposed Interstate ought to be headed toward the region's center of gravity, near where US 412 is now, with distribution north and south via I-49.

So, has ArDOT done any sort of feasibility study for this?

612 is the thus-far-built part of what has for over 20 years been intended as a US 412 Springdale bypass.  Though, as Scott noted, they didn't fund it east of I-49 (though 20 years ago it was proposed to do so).
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mvak36

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2021, 11:41:52 AM »

I don't know why letting it stand on its own as a new number is a problem. It may well never connect to the Memphis area. Arkansas's senators support the measure, but they chose to end it at I-49 rather than try to get funding to continue it east.

Hopefully they get earmarks or something for the part of US412 east of I-49 all the way to NE Arkansas. It doesn't have to be interstate standard but they definitely to do some sort of upgrades for that whole stretch. Some of it might be funded by the Connecting Arkansas Program (CAP2), but we won't know till they post their updated projects list.
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edwaleni

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2021, 02:11:24 PM »

Disagree with your last part.  An Interstate-standard US 412 between the OK/AR line and I-49 would be  rather difficult to build due to topography and development both along and away from the existing roadway.

But there is a proposed /under construction 412 bypass of which AR 612 is a part.

It's not at all obvious to me why AR 612 was built. It's pretty far north of Springdale, further north of Fayetteville, and pointed further north still. I would think that the proposed Interstate ought to be headed toward the region's center of gravity, near where US 412 is now, with distribution north and south via I-49.

So, has ArDOT done any sort of feasibility study for this?

612 is the thus-far-built part of what has for over 20 years been intended as a US 412 Springdale bypass.  Though, as Scott noted, they didn't fund it east of I-49 (though 20 years ago it was proposed to do so).

AR-612 will connect with current US-412 at Old State Road 68 west of Springdale. The plan when it is funded is to continue the bypass all the way to Sonora. But they don't own any of the land yet.
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Tom958

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2021, 04:06:51 PM »

AR-612 will connect with current US-412 at Old State Road 68 west of Springdale. The plan when it is funded is to continue the bypass all the way to Sonora. But they don't own any of the land yet.

OK, here's the big picture, literally. Thanks, froggie!
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2021, 04:32:12 PM »

I agree with making US 412 a freeway/tollway combo between Interstate 44 in Tulsa and Interstate 49 in Springdale, with no at-grade intersections, and access only at interchanges. I disagree with making this corridor an Interstate Highway. It seems like overkill to me.
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2021, 05:26:23 PM »

I agree with making US 412 a freeway/tollway combo between Interstate 44 in Tulsa and Interstate 49 in Springdale, with no at-grade intersections, and access only at interchanges. I disagree with making this corridor an Interstate Highway. It seems like overkill to me.

"I agree with spending several billion dollars to construct an expensive bypass in a major U.S. metro area through difficult terrain and build dozens of interchanges and overpasses along several hundred miles of roadway, but buying a few thousand dollars' worth of new signs for it? That seems like overkill to me."

Literally what?
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Tom958

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2021, 07:52:09 PM »

Literally what?

Well, virtually every inch of it would be concurrent with US 412. So there's that.
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2021, 08:23:42 PM »

Literally what?

Well, virtually every inch of it would be concurrent with US 412. So there's that.


Who cares? That didn't stop I-135 from being designated over US-81.
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Strider

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2021, 10:00:15 PM »

Just because it is a "future interstate" plan doesn't mean that it is going to be designed as an interstate. It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.

If they want to pick an interstate route... the list is very limited as the road would be between I-40 and I-44. It can be I-46 or I-48 if it begins at I-35, but not much else.
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Strider

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2021, 10:02:36 PM »

Arkansas Senators John Boozman and Tom Cotton plus Senator Jim Inhoffe of Oklahoma are proposing an upgrade
US 412 as an interstate Highway from I-35 to I-49.

I don't see why it's needed. Looks to me they are wasting time and effort .


I have posted on here for several years about how US 412 should be a continuation of I-22. Any new Bridge in Memphis should be the I-22 bridge along with I-555 with a Southern bypass of Jonesboro to meet up with an upgraded AR 226. Connect NWA with NEA without Conway/Little Rock and then to Memphis.  Make the exiting part through Jonesboro a 3di to I-22 and curve it up the eastern side to Paragould. A situation not unlike Fort Smith with 549.

I have traveled the I-22 route many times and I do agree with the idea that I-555 is essentially a NE/SE extension of I-22.



They are not going to extend I-22 past Memphis. The interstate is labeled "Memphis to Birmingham interstate", thus only runs from Memphis to Birmingham.
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aboges26

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2021, 12:15:04 AM »

Arkansas Senators John Boozman and Tom Cotton plus Senator Jim Inhoffe of Oklahoma are proposing an upgrade
US 412 as an interstate Highway from I-35 to I-49.

I don't see why it's needed. Looks to me they are wasting time and effort .


I have posted on here for several years about how US 412 should be a continuation of I-22. Any new Bridge in Memphis should be the I-22 bridge along with I-555 with a Southern bypass of Jonesboro to meet up with an upgraded AR 226. Connect NWA with NEA without Conway/Little Rock and then to Memphis.  Make the exiting part through Jonesboro a 3di to I-22 and curve it up the eastern side to Paragould. A situation not unlike Fort Smith with 549.

I have traveled the I-22 route many times and I do agree with the idea that I-555 is essentially a NE/SE extension of I-22.



They are not going to extend I-22 past Memphis. The interstate is labeled "Memphis to Birmingham interstate", thus only runs from Memphis to Birmingham.

Regardless, in order to connect the disparate segments (I-22 & I-555) it would be a pointless multiplex and a triplex along I-40 & I-55 just to break the grid.  If I-555 ever gets extended to Springfield or further to Kansas City, it would more than deserve it's own two-digit number.
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Bobby5280

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2021, 01:05:39 AM »

I see very little chance of US-412 being upgraded to Interstate standards across Northern Arkansas. Most of the existing route is only a 2 lane facility. It runs a winding route with lots of hard turns along the way. There are many pockets of residential and business development built right up next to the road, leaving little if any room for expansion. The road goes through some "sensitive" tourist and scenic areas. Just upgrading all of it to a mix of 4-lane undivided/divided would be difficult.

Not far to the North, US-60 between Springfield and Sikeston is a lot farther along in development. It would be much easier to upgrade to Interstate quality.

Back on topic, I have no problem at all with US-412 being upgraded to Interstate standards between Tulsa and Springdale. That makes sense. An Interstate designation doesn't matter quite as much. But I would only find "I-46" or "I-48" acceptable if the resulting designation took over the Cimarron Turnpike all the way to I-35, that way a portion would be North of I-44. If it's only a Tulsa to Springdale Interstate then an "I-42" apart from NC's intra-state route would be fine, if not a 3-digit off-shoot from I-44. Might be an opportunity to re-designate I-444.
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Scott5114

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2021, 01:16:43 AM »

The bill includes all of the highway between I-35 and Springdale.
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Wayward Memphian

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2021, 05:43:55 AM »

I see very little chance of US-412 being upgraded to Interstate standards across Northern Arkansas. Most of the existing route is only a 2 lane facility. It runs a winding route with lots of hard turns along the way. There are many pockets of residential and business development built right up next to the road, leaving little if any room for expansion. The road goes through some "sensitive" tourist and scenic areas. Just upgrading all of it to a mix of 4-lane undivided/divided would be difficult.

Not far to the North, US-60 between Springfield and Sikeston is a lot farther along in development. It would be much easier to upgrade to Interstate quality.

Back on topic, I have no problem at all with US-412 being upgraded to Interstate standards between Tulsa and Springdale. That makes sense. An Interstate designation doesn't matter quite as much. But I would only find "I-46" or "I-48" acceptable if the resulting designation took over the Cimarron Turnpike all the way to I-35, that way a portion would be North of I-44. If it's only a Tulsa to Springdale Interstate then an "I-42" apart from NC's intra-state route would be fine, if not a 3-digit off-shoot from I-44. Might be an opportunity to re-designate I-444.

A vast majority will have to be new road just like the non interste standards 4 lane divided segments between Siloam and Tontitown and  Sonora and Huntsville. 

At the very least this needs extended to Harrison
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Tom958

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2021, 05:59:18 AM »

Siloam Springs bypass, 14.6 miles from the end of the Cherokee Turnpike to the east end of that section of new four-lane with a sixty foot median that looks like it could be upgraded to freeway:



The connection to I-49, 7.6 miles, only slightly south of existing US 412. Fayetteville is the largest of the four cities of the NWA area and home of the University of Arkansas, and the route from Fayetteville westward to Tulsa via the AR 612 bypass would be ridiculous, so here's a more direct route. Ramp braids would be required between the I-46 and existing US 412 interchanges on I-49.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 06:03:35 AM by Tom958 »
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GaryV

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2021, 07:57:32 AM »

It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.

I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.

Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything? 
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: Proposed US 412 Upgrade
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2021, 08:20:29 AM »

^^^ lol Iím surprised(pleasantly Iíll add) this is even happening in Oklahoma to be honest. Oklahoma could use several new interstates, IMO.
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