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The BEST Transportation Agency in the U.S. (2021 Edition)

Started by JoePCool14, April 26, 2021, 10:13:31 AM

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Bruce

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 09, 2021, 01:23:25 PM
Does signage quality matter as much anymore with GPS? It still matters of course, but how much?

They are called reassurance shields for a reason. Google Maps can be off when it comes to giving proper directions.


MillTheRoadgeek

Where does DDOT (District of Columbia) go on this?

Scott5114

I'd put them in Tier 5 given how hard it is to follow numbered routes through the city (and some of the signage is old enough it has state-name US shields, which is cool for roadgeeks but kind of goes to show you how much they neglect the signage). I only went there for a few days in 2007, though, so it may have improved since then.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

JoePCool14

Quote from: MillTheRoadgeek on June 11, 2021, 01:18:59 PM
Where does DDOT (District of Columbia) go on this?

Absolutely awful, borderline Tier 6 for me. They've never heard of FHWA standard fonts, which to me is just such a fail all on its own. Literally everything is Arial. And sometimes, stretched and compressed Arial.

:) Needs more... :sombrero: Not quite... :bigass: Perfect.
JDOT: We make the world a better place to drive.
Travel Mapping | 60+ Clinches | 260+ Traveled | 8000+ Miles Logged

Scott5114

Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 12, 2021, 06:22:17 PM
Quote from: MillTheRoadgeek on June 11, 2021, 01:18:59 PM
Where does DDOT (District of Columbia) go on this?

Absolutely awful, borderline Tier 6 for me. They've never heard of FHWA standard fonts, which to me is just such a fail all on its own. Literally everything is Arial. And sometimes, stretched and compressed Arial.

Helvetica, actually. Although it looks like some newer signage uses FHWA fonts.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

SkyPesos

Which tier would AlanDOT fall under? A new tier 7?

on_wisconsin

Quote from: SkyPesos on June 12, 2021, 08:15:20 PM
Which tier would AlanDOT fall under? A new tier 7?
While also being tier 1, but not.
"Speed does not kill, suddenly becoming stationary... that's what gets you" - Jeremy Clarkson

crispy93

Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on April 29, 2021, 09:04:27 PM
NYCDOT has its issues (especially with how they maintain expressways) but I think they have some of the best maintenance and design for local streets. Their parking signs are much more legible and consistent than the standard MUTCD signs, and they are usually good with signal configurations (creative use of LPIs and FYA, not afraid of permissive left turns, and the signals are pretimed instead of actuated which is almost always the right choice in an urban environment).

Also, you can complain about the speed cameras and red light cameras, but I have seen first hand that they really do cut down on reckless driving. The program is not too unreasonable, you have to be going over 36 to get caught by the speed cameras and NYC times its yellow intervals correctly. Look at neighboring cities without such a program like Newark and JC in NJ and people drive much more recklessly and run red lights with impunity. So I think it's a good system.

The difference between NYSDOT and NYCDOT is amazing. I wrote a physical letter to NYSDOT LI about an inaccurate sign, they replied and fixed it within a week. I made a similar report to NYCDOT about an inaccurate sign and it took them like 8 months to close the request and idk if they actually did it. Same for FOIL requests, NYSDOT gets it to me in a week, NYCDOT took about 8 months and sent the wrong doc.

With the expressways, NYCDOT caps all NYC freeways at 50 mph for some reason, meaning the Clearview and West Shore Expressways are 50 mph speed traps with higher design speeds, and the city refuses to acknowledge that they are the operator of these corridors. I sent NYSDOT's letter saying the speed limits were under the city's control, to NYCDOT, and kept being told it's the state's problem. That individual is now the SI borough commissioner...

Their signals are awful. The yellows are about 2-2.5 seconds (it's frustrating seeing NYC drivers slam on their brakes when they're driving on LI or upstate and the light turns yellow). They rejected my proposal to allow right-on-red at an intersection with no cross traffic, with no explanation. Any signals that control interchanges with surface streets are timed awfully and will back up the highway's mainline. The yield signs at the ends of long entrance long ramps. They replace damaged NYSDOT exit signs with these monstrosities: https://goo.gl/maps/i6aZu5a4hWYjxbEr6

/rant
Not every speed limit in NY needs to be 30

sprjus4

Quote from: crispy93 on June 14, 2021, 11:59:56 AM
With the expressways, NYCDOT caps all NYC freeways at 50 mph for some reason, meaning the Clearview and West Shore Expressways are 50 mph speed traps with higher design speeds, and the city refuses to acknowledge that they are the operator of these corridors. I sent NYSDOT's letter saying the speed limits were under the city's control, to NYCDOT, and kept being told it's the state's problem. That individual is now the SI borough commissioner...
Isn't it NYSDOT, though, that refuses to increase the LIE (I-495) from 55 mph to 65 mph? Or the SH-27 Sunrise Hwy? Both are limited access facilities that are easily designed for 70 mph or greater, particularly the further east you go.

vdeane

Quote from: crispy93 on June 14, 2021, 11:59:56 AM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on April 29, 2021, 09:04:27 PM
NYCDOT has its issues (especially with how they maintain expressways) but I think they have some of the best maintenance and design for local streets. Their parking signs are much more legible and consistent than the standard MUTCD signs, and they are usually good with signal configurations (creative use of LPIs and FYA, not afraid of permissive left turns, and the signals are pretimed instead of actuated which is almost always the right choice in an urban environment).

Also, you can complain about the speed cameras and red light cameras, but I have seen first hand that they really do cut down on reckless driving. The program is not too unreasonable, you have to be going over 36 to get caught by the speed cameras and NYC times its yellow intervals correctly. Look at neighboring cities without such a program like Newark and JC in NJ and people drive much more recklessly and run red lights with impunity. So I think it's a good system.

The difference between NYSDOT and NYCDOT is amazing. I wrote a physical letter to NYSDOT LI about an inaccurate sign, they replied and fixed it within a week. I made a similar report to NYCDOT about an inaccurate sign and it took them like 8 months to close the request and idk if they actually did it. Same for FOIL requests, NYSDOT gets it to me in a week, NYCDOT took about 8 months and sent the wrong doc.

With the expressways, NYCDOT caps all NYC freeways at 50 mph for some reason, meaning the Clearview and West Shore Expressways are 50 mph speed traps with higher design speeds, and the city refuses to acknowledge that they are the operator of these corridors. I sent NYSDOT's letter saying the speed limits were under the city's control, to NYCDOT, and kept being told it's the state's problem. That individual is now the SI borough commissioner...

Their signals are awful. The yellows are about 2-2.5 seconds (it's frustrating seeing NYC drivers slam on their brakes when they're driving on LI or upstate and the light turns yellow). They rejected my proposal to allow right-on-red at an intersection with no cross traffic, with no explanation. Any signals that control interchanges with surface streets are timed awfully and will back up the highway's mainline. The yield signs at the ends of long entrance long ramps. They replace damaged NYSDOT exit signs with these monstrosities: https://goo.gl/maps/i6aZu5a4hWYjxbEr6

/rant
Are you sure it's NYCDOT capping the freeways at 50?  I was under the impression that there's an actual law setting 50 as the maximum allowed speed to be posted in NYC.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

crispy93

Quote from: vdeane on June 14, 2021, 01:40:17 PM
Quote from: crispy93 on June 14, 2021, 11:59:56 AM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on April 29, 2021, 09:04:27 PM
NYCDOT has its issues (especially with how they maintain expressways) but I think they have some of the best maintenance and design for local streets. Their parking signs are much more legible and consistent than the standard MUTCD signs, and they are usually good with signal configurations (creative use of LPIs and FYA, not afraid of permissive left turns, and the signals are pretimed instead of actuated which is almost always the right choice in an urban environment).

Also, you can complain about the speed cameras and red light cameras, but I have seen first hand that they really do cut down on reckless driving. The program is not too unreasonable, you have to be going over 36 to get caught by the speed cameras and NYC times its yellow intervals correctly. Look at neighboring cities without such a program like Newark and JC in NJ and people drive much more recklessly and run red lights with impunity. So I think it's a good system.

The difference between NYSDOT and NYCDOT is amazing. I wrote a physical letter to NYSDOT LI about an inaccurate sign, they replied and fixed it within a week. I made a similar report to NYCDOT about an inaccurate sign and it took them like 8 months to close the request and idk if they actually did it. Same for FOIL requests, NYSDOT gets it to me in a week, NYCDOT took about 8 months and sent the wrong doc.

With the expressways, NYCDOT caps all NYC freeways at 50 mph for some reason, meaning the Clearview and West Shore Expressways are 50 mph speed traps with higher design speeds, and the city refuses to acknowledge that they are the operator of these corridors. I sent NYSDOT's letter saying the speed limits were under the city's control, to NYCDOT, and kept being told it's the state's problem. That individual is now the SI borough commissioner...

Their signals are awful. The yellows are about 2-2.5 seconds (it's frustrating seeing NYC drivers slam on their brakes when they're driving on LI or upstate and the light turns yellow). They rejected my proposal to allow right-on-red at an intersection with no cross traffic, with no explanation. Any signals that control interchanges with surface streets are timed awfully and will back up the highway's mainline. The yield signs at the ends of long entrance long ramps. They replace damaged NYSDOT exit signs with these monstrosities: https://goo.gl/maps/i6aZu5a4hWYjxbEr6

/rant
Are you sure it's NYCDOT capping the freeways at 50?  I was under the impression that there's an actual law setting 50 as the maximum allowed speed to be posted in NYC.

NYSDOT said as much. I also searched the V&TL and there's nothing capping speed limits in NYC. I also had a state assemblyman call NYSDOT R11 and were were told the same thing, speed limits are the city's problem.
Not every speed limit in NY needs to be 30

vdeane

I was thinking more along the lines of a city ordinance.  The 50 mph limit originated in the 1970s oil crisis; IIRC, the whole state actually dropped to 50 for a time, but outside of NYC raised to 55 when the NMSL became law.  NYC, of course, remains unchanged to this day.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

CoreySamson

Tier 1: Amazing
FDOT (Florida)
ADOT (Arizona)
UDOT (Utah)
VTrans (Vermont)

Tier 2: Pretty Good
TxDOT (Texas)
TNDOT (Tennessee)
WisDOT (Wisconsin)
KDOT (Kansas)
INDOT (Indiana)
MoDOT (Missouri)
CDOT (Colorado)
NCDOT (North Carolina)
ODOT (Ohio)
IADOT (Iowa)
NEDOT (Nebraska)
DelDOT (Delaware)
WSDOT (Washington)
ITD (Idaho)
ISTHA (Illinois)
NHDOT (New Hampshire)

Tier 3: Okay
DOTD (Louisiana)
MDOT (Mississippi)
ODOT (Oregon)
MDOT (Michigan)
GDOT (Georgia)
VDOT (Virginia)
NYSDOT (New York)
MnDOT (Minnesota)
NJDOT (New Jersey)
MDOT (Maryland)
WVDOT (West Virginia)
KTC (Kentucky)
MassDOT (Massachusetts)

Tier 4: Mediocre
ARDOT (Arkansas)
PennDOT (Pennsylvania)
CalTrans (California)
SCDOT (South Carolina)

Tier 5: Bad
RIDOT (Rhode Island)
IDOT (Illinois)
WYDOT (Wyoming)
DDOT (District Of Columbia)
NYCDOT (New York City)

Tier 6: Garbage
ODOT (Oklahoma)
NMDOT (New Mexico)

Unsure (maybe people with more knowledge on these states can help out?)
NDOT (Nevada)
MDT (Montana)
NDDOT (North Dakota)
SDDOT (South Dakota)
ALDOT (Alabama)
HDOT (Hawaii)
AKDOT (Alaska)
MaineDOT (Maine)
CTDOT (Connecticut)

Updated. Where does ALDOT place on this? I hear a lot from their neighboring states' DOTs, but not theirs.
Buc-ee's and QuikTrip fanboy. Clincher of FM roads. Proponent of the TX U-turn.

My Route Log
My Clinches

Now on mobrule and Travel Mapping!

formulanone

#163
You're not missing out on much with ALDOT, unless safety standards from the 1960s are exactly what you've been missing. Pavement quality is mediocre at times; it usually goes bad in 5-6 years. State-supported signage isn't bad, generally pretty consistent and well-placed. New DOT website (seems a little easier to navigate). They're pretty concise and specific-enough in some plans (though I don't delve into those often), but behind the times on many innovations. And you could still get paper maps through early-2020, though I haven't looked for 2021 editions.

Considering their budget, low-average to the brink of mediocre would suffice. I would be hard-pressed to put them in the same category as Maryland and New York, honestly. But I think PennDOT isn't that bad, considering their fairly massive inventory.

kphoger

The below is a pretty bold statement regarding HDOT, yet no details were given.

Anyone?  What's your impression of HDOT?

Quote from: machias on May 31, 2021, 11:25:06 PM
Having driven in all 50 states, my top 3 are: Arizona, Wisconsin, Michigan (in that order).  My bottom 3 are: Hawaii, Oklahoma, New Mexico.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

on_wisconsin

Quote from: formulanone on June 15, 2021, 05:54:44 PM
And you could still get paper maps through early-2020, though I haven't looked for 2021 editions.

F.Y.I. Many states still offer official printed maps at rest stops and to order online.
"Speed does not kill, suddenly becoming stationary... that's what gets you" - Jeremy Clarkson

oscar

Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 08:16:16 PM
The below is a pretty bold statement regarding HDOT, yet no details were given.

Anyone?  What's your impression of HDOT?

Quote from: machias on May 31, 2021, 11:25:06 PM
Having driven in all 50 states, my top 3 are: Arizona, Wisconsin, Michigan (in that order).  My bottom 3 are: Hawaii, Oklahoma, New Mexico.

I don't disagree too strongly with his ranking of Hawaii's DOT. It has the disadvantage of getting starved for funds, by a public pretty indifferent to transportation improvements. Hawaii's economy also got double-whammied by major recessions in both the U.S. and Japan. So I'm tempted to cut it some slack due to "degree of difficulty". (While it never snows on the state highways, volcano goddess Madame Pele likes to screw around with the ones on the Big Island.)

State route numbering and signage is pretty good from the mainland perspective (county route signage varies from terrific on Kauai to virtually non-existent on Oahu), too bad locals don't give a crap about route numbers. Alaska has a similar issue, plus its hunters like to use rural route markers for target practice. That means its route markers are few and far between, and placed strategically at junctions where they are most needed and the added traffic discourages vandalism.

I'm not sure Oklahoma ranks below South Carolina.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

TheHighwayMan3561

I don't feel like reading back through 200 posts, but why is Texas in Tier 2? They're building all kinds of massive stacks and new freeways, the things that people here care about the most.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

US 89

Quote from: formulanone on June 15, 2021, 05:54:44 PM
You're not missing out on much with ALDOT, unless safety standards from the 1960s are exactly what you've been missing. Pavement quality is mediocre at times; it usually goes bad in 5-6 years. State-supported signage isn't bad, generally pretty consistent and well-placed. New DOT website (seems a little easier to navigate). They're pretty concise and specific-enough in some plans (though I don't delve into those often), but behind the times on many innovations. And you could still get paper maps through early-2020, though I haven't looked for 2021 editions.

See, I would have easily put ALDOT in the higher half. In my experience, signage is always there and always readable, and pavement quality is pretty good even off interstates. Maybe I’m just comparing it too much to nearby states like TN/GA/SC, all of which I feel like have worse pavement and signage.

SkyPesos

#169
Kind of wondering, how would a tier list based solely on signage in a state turn out? Like Michigan is tier 3 on the overall tier list above, as their pavement quality is driving it down, though I think their signage is pretty good, maybe even borderline amazing, as long as you have no issues with clearview.

Ohio's would be at amazing, especially considering that control cities and/or a BGS are signed for most onramps, but signage like this is enough to move it down a tier for me.

sprjus4

Quote from: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 09:44:31 AM
Kind of wondering, how would a tier list based solely on signage in a state turn out? Like Michigan is tier 3 on the overall tier list above, as their pavement quality is driving it down, though I think their signage is pretty good, maybe even borderline amazing, as long as you have no issues with clearview.

Ohio's would be at amazing, especially considering that control cities and/or a BGS are signed for most onramps, but signage like this is enough to move it down a tier for me.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22284.0

vdeane

As much as I love VTrans, one thing I don't love about them is the whole milepoint exit number thing, basically allowing them to retain sequential for at least the next 10 years (we'll see if they actually change properly then).  Meanwhile, NHDOT would have done a proper conversion by now, were it not for their governor.  On the other hand, one could argue that milepoint exit numbers with a theoretical conversion in 2030 is still more hope for a switch than we have from NH.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Scott5114

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 16, 2021, 01:45:39 AM
I don't feel like reading back through 200 posts, but why is Texas in Tier 2? They're building all kinds of massive stacks and new freeways, the things that people here care about the most.

Outside of the big city, you can find all sorts of squirrelly Texas setups, like interchanges between non-freeways plopped in random small towns, for apparently no reason, that require U turns to make some of the movements. The frontage road system is interesting and occasionally useful but can lead to some awkward setups and development patterns. Signage is internally consistent but often takes massive liberties with the MUTCD (continued use of Clearview after authorization revoked/expired, "Obey warning signs, state law"). Wacky control city choices (Waco and Denton in DFW? Really?). The somewhat confusing abundance of secondary highway types. Plain square highway marker, which is also used for LOOP and SPUR routes. Horizontal signal heads. Lots of use of chipseal on surface roads...

Driving in Texas is generally an acceptable experience, but they do things differently enough down there that there's bound to be one thing about it that they do worse than your home state. And there's just something I can't put my finger on about driving in Texas that is just exhausting. I am always relieved to see the Oklahoma welcome sign when returning from Texas in a way that I'm not when I'm returning from Kansas or Missouri.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

sprjus4

One major bonus that boosts Texas in my books is the reasonable speed limits. It's a minor detail but makes a major difference driving in rural areas. The sheer ability to legally drive up to 75 mph on a two lane road, whereas in some states that's 20 mph over and considered "reckless driving" . Even for divided highways in a lot of instances, particularly compared to a state like I'm in. They give us 60 mph in some areas though  :sleep:

Additionally, the same principle could apply to urban freeways, where everything isn't simply capped at 55 mph or maybe 60 mph despite being able to safely handle much faster.

CoreySamson

Quote from: CoreySamson on April 29, 2021, 05:02:25 PM
I've got mostly positive, but nevertheless mixed opinions about TXDOT.

Pros:
- Projects actually get started and completed
- Freeway design is looking up
- Signage, though Clearview, is usually amazing
- Roads are usually very well surfaced and free of potholes
- Uses high-efficiency junctions well

Cons:
- Quality of new construction is concerning
- The Houston district is a hotbed of mediocre signage and quality
- Signs seem to be damaged easily in heavy winds
- Not very much attention given to pedestrians

Probably somewhere around 5th-10th place in the overall scheme of things.
Here was my earlier assessment of TxDOT right before the Angelo drama went down. I think there's enough cons here to weigh against the pros (stacks, good speed limits, etc.), which is why they are in Tier 2 in my book.
Buc-ee's and QuikTrip fanboy. Clincher of FM roads. Proponent of the TX U-turn.

My Route Log
My Clinches

Now on mobrule and Travel Mapping!



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