News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

New HAWK Signals Confusing Drivers in Grapevine

Started by Brian556, September 12, 2020, 06:36:04 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Brian556

Grapevine, Texas: Today, i took a stroll down Main St in Grapevine, Texas. I noticed that the HAWK signals that were installed earlier this year were confusing the fudge out of drivers. Almost none of them knew what do to. The biggest issue was that they were stopping when the signals were dark. The second biggest issue was that they did not know that they could go during the flashing phase one the pedestrians were out of the way. This was actually causing increased congestion. A third issue is that these signals only serve pedestrians, and they screw vehicles on the side streets. Traffic on Main St is very heavy ,and drivers coming from side streets were having to take advantage of the cluelessness of Main St drivers, and go when they did not have right-of-way. It was the only way they could get out.

For all these reasons, I say these intersections should have normal traffic signals.

Also, at Hudgins Av, there is still a crosswalk with overhead emergency-vehicle-type pedestrian-activated amber lights, which now is a consistency issue.

Just like with roundabouts, the government has introduced a new road feature without making any effort to properly educating drivers.

Google Maps: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.9375539,-97.0789558,1446m/data=!3m1!1e3

[/url]DSC_0182 by Brian Kosich, on Flickr[/img]

DSC_0182 by Brian Kosich, on Flickr


Revive 755

The installation pictured does not comply with the National edition of the MUTCD.

Quote from: 2009 MUTCD 4F.02 Paragraph 08A CROSSWALK STOP ON RED (symbolic circular red) (R10-23) sign (see Section 2B.53) shall be mounted adjacent to a pedestrian hybrid beacon face on each major street approach. If an overhead pedestrian hybrid beacon face is provided, the sign shall be mounted adjacent to the overhead signal face.

Brian556

Quote from: Revive 755 on September 12, 2020, 07:13:31 PM
The installation pictured does not comply with the National edition of the MUTCD.

Quoteauthor=2009 MUTCD 4F.02 Paragraph 08]A CROSSWALK STOP ON RED (symbolic circular red) (R10-23) sign (see Section 2B.53) shall be mounted adjacent to a pedestrian hybrid beacon face on each major street approach. If an overhead pedestrian hybrid beacon face is provided, the sign shall be mounted adjacent to the overhead signal face.

I had to tinker with the coding that was auto-generated when I tried to quote you to prevent my text from being included in the quote. Anyway,
The ones in McAlester, OK have those, but they still don't tell drivers what to do if no lights are illuminated
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.9327983,-95.7672862,3a,19.3y,292.22h,94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYpnDPcAlRPYSImxh9HKObg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

roadfro

Quote from: Brian556 on September 12, 2020, 06:36:04 PM
Grapevine, Texas: Today, i took a stroll down Main St in Grapevine, Texas. I noticed that the HAWK signals that were installed earlier this year were confusing the fudge out of drivers. Almost none of them knew what do to. The biggest issue was that they were stopping when the signals were dark. The second biggest issue was that they did not know that they could go during the flashing phase one the pedestrians were out of the way. This was actually causing increased congestion. A third issue is that these signals only serve pedestrians, and they screw vehicles on the side streets. Traffic on Main St is very heavy ,and drivers coming from side streets were having to take advantage of the cluelessness of Main St drivers, and go when they did not have right-of-way. It was the only way they could get out.

For all these reasons, I say these intersections should have normal traffic signals.

Quote from: Revive 755 on September 12, 2020, 07:13:31 PM
The installation pictured does not comply with the National edition of the MUTCD.

Quote from: 2009 MUTCD 4F.02 Paragraph 08A CROSSWALK STOP ON RED (symbolic circular red) (R10-23) sign (see Section 2B.53) shall be mounted adjacent to a pedestrian hybrid beacon face on each major street approach. If an overhead pedestrian hybrid beacon face is provided, the sign shall be mounted adjacent to the overhead signal face.

Although only guidance, the national MUTCD also recommends that pedestrian hybrid beacons be installed at least 100 feet from a side street or driveway that is stop or yield controlled. This was installed right at an intersection. If they were going to do that, they might as well have installed a regular signal.

IMHO, the HAWK was the worst thing introduced in the 2009 MUTCD. I think there should have been more study before adopting it, or examination of something else more intuitive.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Amtrakprod

They need better signage, such as this used in Cambridge MA:


iPhone
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

US71

I was stopped by a HAWK today (first time). Half the drivers seemed lost.
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

jakeroot

I went through one a few months back. I was at the front of the pack. Once the lights started flashing, I proceeded. Car next to me went almost immediately; cars behind us just didn't even stop.

I don't know who the hell thought these were smart. Compliance is abysmal. I give them another ten years max before being redacted.

I've not seen another country that uses any signal like this. Even the UK's very unique pedestrian signals use regular three-head traffic signals.

Drivers everywhere recognize the three-head traffic signal and its basic meanings (caution on flashing yellow, proceed after stop on flashing red, four way stop when dark) ... don't fuck with this.

kphoger

What's strange about apparent driver comprehension is that, if it were a plain flashing red light, they would all know what to do.  But, when a HAWK goes to flashing red mode, nobody seems to know what to do.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

fwydriver405

Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2020, 03:19:48 AM
I went through one a few months back. I was at the front of the pack. Once the lights started flashing, I proceeded. Car next to me went almost immediately; cars behind us just didn't even stop.

I don't know who the hell thought these were smart. Compliance is abysmal. I give them another ten years max before being redacted.

I've not seen another country that uses any signal like this. Even the UK's very unique pedestrian signals use regular three-head traffic signals.

Drivers everywhere recognize the three-head traffic signal and its basic meanings (caution on flashing yellow, proceed after stop on flashing red, four way stop when dark) ... don't fuck with this.

What about the ones near a roundabout entrance/exit? I almost got rear ended one time when I was making a full stop on the flashing reds in Dover, NH... people just blow thru the solid and flashing red phases especially exiting the circle.

US 89

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2020, 09:09:29 AM
What's strange about apparent driver comprehension is that, if it were a plain flashing red light, they would all know what to do.  But, when a HAWK goes to flashing red mode, nobody seems to know what to do.

My observation with HAWKs is that compliance tends to be better in regions that both a) have a lot of them and b) have had them for a while. As an example, compliance tends to be pretty good in Utah, where there are quite a few at midblock crossings in Salt Lake City and at other busy pedestrian crossings around the metro areas. But Atlanta doesn't have nearly as many of them, so compliance there is far worse. In particular, what people in Atlanta suck at most is they don't realize you can go on the flashing red after stopping if there are no pedestrians.

The signage that accompanies the signal is probably a major determining factor in how the average local driver treats it. In Salt Lake, the standard sign that accompanies a HAWK reads "stop on red / stop on flashing red then proceed if clear". The equivalent sign in Atlanta only has "stop on red".

1995hoo

Quote from: US 89 on September 15, 2020, 11:30:41 AM
....

The signage that accompanies the signal is probably a major determining factor in how the average local driver treats it. In Salt Lake, the standard sign that accompanies a HAWK reads "stop on red / stop on flashing red then proceed if clear". The equivalent sign in Atlanta only has "stop on red".

Both the District of Columbia and Alexandria, Virginia, amended their signage for exactly that reason. The signs originally didn't say what to do on flashing red. (That latter link should show the Alexandria HAWK signal in 2009. Clicking through the old Street View images shows the signs were changed sometime between 2014 and 2017.)
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

DRMan

What's even worse is when there's a HAWK-like emergency signal (stop on flashing red) and a "real" HAWK signal (stop on flashing red then proceed) next to each other. Two signals that look the same, yet drivers are supposed to behave differently.

https://goo.gl/maps/SrJtdgqbznwJMZRS9

hotdogPi

Quote from: DRMan on September 15, 2020, 12:33:37 PM
What's even worse is when there's a HAWK-like emergency signal (stop on flashing red) and a "real" HAWK signal (stop on flashing red then proceed) next to each other. Two signals that look the same, yet drivers are supposed to behave differently.

https://goo.gl/maps/SrJtdgqbznwJMZRS9

flashing red = stop, then continue when it's safe to do so
solid red = remain stopped (unless you're turning right)
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

DRMan

Quote from: 1 on September 15, 2020, 12:37:40 PM
Quote from: DRMan on September 15, 2020, 12:33:37 PM
What's even worse is when there's a HAWK-like emergency signal (stop on flashing red) and a "real" HAWK signal (stop on flashing red then proceed) next to each other. Two signals that look the same, yet drivers are supposed to behave differently.

https://goo.gl/maps/SrJtdgqbznwJMZRS9

flashing red = stop, then continue when it's safe to do so
solid red = remain stopped (unless you're turning right)

Yes, you're right. The signage confused me but a look at MUTCD confirmed that, at emergency signals, drivers are to stop and then proceed on flashing red. The signage should be changed to make that clear.

But the real inconsistency (and what I was thinking of in the first place) is that the steady red aspect is _optional_ on the emergency signal vs. mandatory with the HAWK.

jakeroot

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2020, 09:09:29 AM
What's strange about apparent driver comprehension is that, if it were a plain flashing red light, they would all know what to do.  But, when a HAWK goes to flashing red mode, nobody seems to know what to do.

I don't think we give enough drivers credit for recognizing the basics, like a single flashing red light meaning stop and then proceed when clear. Adjacent flashing red signals were only ever used at at-grade railway crossings, and we were taught to stop and never move until they stop blinking. I'm more surprised that drivers are willing to blow through them without stopping, since the same signal at a railway means "stop and wait until lights stop flashing".

At any rate, adjacent flashing red signals have different meanings depending on whether there is an adjacent crossbuck. That's dumb.

Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 15, 2020, 10:35:03 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2020, 03:19:48 AM
I went through one a few months back. I was at the front of the pack. Once the lights started flashing, I proceeded. Car next to me went almost immediately; cars behind us just didn't even stop.

I don't know who the hell thought these were smart. Compliance is abysmal. I give them another ten years max before being redacted.

I've not seen another country that uses any signal like this. Even the UK's very unique pedestrian signals use regular three-head traffic signals.

Drivers everywhere recognize the three-head traffic signal and its basic meanings (caution on flashing yellow, proceed after stop on flashing red, four way stop when dark) ... don't fuck with this.

What about the ones near a roundabout entrance/exit? I almost got rear ended one time when I was making a full stop on the flashing reds in Dover, NH... people just blow thru the solid and flashing red phases especially exiting the circle.

I can see why they were installed there (since roundabouts sometimes have not-so-good compliance with pedestrian give-way rules), but I don't think they're brilliant. I'd rather an RRFB or single flashing red orb were used instead.

jdbx

I still feel pretty strongly that HAWK was a solution looking for a problem to solve. There are many pedestrian trail crossings in my area, and they all employ traditional pedestrian-actuated R-Y-G traffic lights.  Compliance is good, and there is zero confusion.

Here are a couple very clear and obvious examples:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.947841,-122.0805969,3a,75y,103.32h,86.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAysDRIlAozwjAN1h1budJw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9271014,-122.0406542,3a,75y,145.9h,85.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqgiCCZvAnhLL9tOfiQJJ6w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9263888,-122.0704748,3a,75y,261.91h,89.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssalP3u4xkSuFFl2r4R65mw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

All of them are well-signed and the expectations are obvious for pedestrians and motorists alike.  If a crossing is problematic enough to install a HAWK, then a R-Y-G will probably do the job better.




kphoger

Quote from: jdbx on September 15, 2020, 04:55:59 PM
better

Only if by "better" you mean that all traffic having to remain stopped when nobody is left crossing the street is "better".
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

mrsman

Quote from: DRMan on September 15, 2020, 02:45:34 PM
Quote from: 1 on September 15, 2020, 12:37:40 PM
Quote from: DRMan on September 15, 2020, 12:33:37 PM
What's even worse is when there's a HAWK-like emergency signal (stop on flashing red) and a "real" HAWK signal (stop on flashing red then proceed) next to each other. Two signals that look the same, yet drivers are supposed to behave differently.

https://goo.gl/maps/SrJtdgqbznwJMZRS9

flashing red = stop, then continue when it's safe to do so
solid red = remain stopped (unless you're turning right)

Yes, you're right. The signage confused me but a look at MUTCD confirmed that, at emergency signals, drivers are to stop and then proceed on flashing red. The signage should be changed to make that clear.

But the real inconsistency (and what I was thinking of in the first place) is that the steady red aspect is _optional_ on the emergency signal vs. mandatory with the HAWK.

It's a bad idea to put the two types of signals that close to the other. 

jdbx

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2020, 04:59:20 PM
Quote from: jdbx on September 15, 2020, 04:55:59 PM
better

Only if by "better" you mean that all traffic having to remain stopped when nobody is left crossing the street is "better".

With all of the confusion and ambiguity around whether to stop or proceed at a HAWK signal, I do think that there is probably less time spent stopped in aggregate at a regular R-Y-G signal.  Perhaps with better driver education.....

doorknob60

HAWK compliance seems very good around Boise, ID. I've never seen someone try to stop at a dark one, and I also don't think I've ever seen anyone wait longer than they had to at the flashing red phase. The worst thing I've seen (which really isn't bad at all) is occasionally someone will stop during the flashing yellow phase, a good 5 seconds or so before it turns red. Legitimately here, people are better at HAWKs than Roundabouts (where nobody signals when exiting here).

Well, I do have one bad experience with one in Nampa, as a pedestrian. Some asshole yelled out of his car something like "hurry up" at me while I was crossing, during the walk phase. I was walking at a completely normal pace, don't know what his problem was and what he would have done with the 5 seconds he'd have saved if I sprinted across the street.

kphoger

Quote from: jdbx on September 15, 2020, 05:08:26 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2020, 04:59:20 PM

Quote from: jdbx on September 15, 2020, 04:55:59 PM
better

Only if by "better" you mean that all traffic having to remain stopped when nobody is left crossing the street is "better".

With all of the confusion and ambiguity around whether to stop or proceed at a HAWK signal, I do think that there is probably less time spent stopped in aggregate at a regular R-Y-G signal.  Perhaps with better driver education.....

??

Is the time between dark and dark longer for a HAWK signal than the time between green and green for a regular RYG ped signal?  If not, then how do you figure?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

mrsman

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2020, 04:59:20 PM
Quote from: jdbx on September 15, 2020, 04:55:59 PM
better

Only if by "better" you mean that all traffic having to remain stopped when nobody is left crossing the street is "better".

This is why the Los Angeles ped xing is better.  R-Y-G signals, but the red is a flashing red.  One improvement to this would be a brief steady red at the beginning of the red phase to force a 7 second full stop.  But with the flashing red, traffic is not stuck when the crossing is cleared.

Such as this one:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0460986,-118.2526003,3a,75y,234.25h,77.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKEEj5LLWrvJ15zYfHambKA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

kalvado

There are a lot of new fancy flashing signals which tend to mess with principal color coding. Which is fundamentally wrong.
So flashing red means stop; double that - stop for real, it is dangerous. Or now it means something else. 
Plashing yellow may mean you have right of way or that you  have to yield , or just ask for reading the message.
Dark signal may mean failure, or maybe just don't pay attention
This way MUTCD can get upgraded to all black-on-white variable messages and get done with it as color-coding no longer sends a message anyway.

CoreySamson

I can attest that my driver education said absolutely nothing about HAWKs, and my driver's ed was pretty good. I think a normal traffic light would work just fine instead of these; they are a solution in search of a problem.

(P.S. I'm glad I'm on this forum and learned about these, otherwise, I could've put myself in a dangerous situation when encountered with one being a young driver. So thanks!)
Buc-ee's and QuikTrip fanboy. Clincher of FM roads. Proponent of the TX U-turn.

My Route Log
My Clinches

Now on mobrule and Travel Mapping!

jdbx

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2020, 05:09:32 PM
Quote from: jdbx on September 15, 2020, 05:08:26 PM

Quote from: kphoger on September 15, 2020, 04:59:20 PM

Quote from: jdbx on September 15, 2020, 04:55:59 PM
better

Only if by "better" you mean that all traffic having to remain stopped when nobody is left crossing the street is "better".

With all of the confusion and ambiguity around whether to stop or proceed at a HAWK signal, I do think that there is probably less time spent stopped in aggregate at a regular R-Y-G signal.  Perhaps with better driver education.....

??

Is the time between dark and dark longer for a HAWK signal than the time between green and green for a regular RYG ped signal?  If not, then how do you figure?

That of course depends on the timing for the crossing itself.  What I was alluding to is the non-zero number of drivers who will stop at a dark HAWK similar to a dark R-Y-G.  The flashing phase could be a time saver for drivers if the crossing is clear, but again... it's ambiguous to some.  The steady green ball of a R-Y-G is completely unambiguous.  A darkened HAWK is a recipe for drivers stopping unnecessarily, as others in this thread have noted observing.





Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.