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Intersections with NO turning lanes

Started by webny99, May 11, 2017, 11:21:40 PM

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webny99

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 28, 2019, 09:27:39 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 27, 2019, 07:45:30 PM
So you wind up during rush hour in a situation where you play the game of "do I cruise in the left lane and risk being stuck behind a left-turn" or "cruise in the right lane and risk getting stuck behind a stopped Metrobus). 95Hoo will know what I'm talking about.
Columbia Pike is a classic example of that. I used to commute on that road and it was difficult trying to balance the two issues you note in terms of when to change lanes.

I think this happens on pretty much any four lane road that lacks turning lanes. A stretch of a mile or so near me comes to mind where changing lanes 5 to 7 times within a mile is par for the course. First you want the left lane to avoid slowdowns as traffic turns right at a T-junction. Then immediately move right to avoid left turning traffic into streets and driveways. Then left again, then right again. And eventually, two lanes merge into one. Sometimes you get ahead big time, sometimes you just can't win. It's a fun, but very tiring, game!


jakeroot

Quote from: Kulerage on June 27, 2019, 03:50:43 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 24, 2019, 01:36:47 PM
Quote from: Kulerage on June 23, 2019, 05:58:31 PM
I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.

What was the setup? Two lanes each direction, or one lane each direction? (or more?)
There were two lanes for going forward, a left turn lane, but no right turning lane, meaning you had to use the rightmost straight lane for making right turns.

Could you post a Google Maps link? Not sure your example fits the OP's criteria.

Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2019, 09:46:18 PM
As for Jake's original assertion:  Sec. 545.057 stipulates that the vehicle being passed on the right must be turning left or about to turn left.  So that would not apply to using any extra lane space for turning right next to other vehicles going straight.

Does Texas permit passing in the shoulder when vehicles are presenting an obstruction in the primary lane of travel? My earlier assertion was simply that you may pass on the right (if the roadway is wide enough to permit such a maneuver), if there is enough room to do so. The car being passed on the right did not have to be turning. Just traveling below the speed limit.

kphoger

Quote from: jakeroot on June 28, 2019, 04:36:08 PM
Does Texas permit passing in the shoulder when vehicles are presenting an obstruction in the primary lane of travel? My earlier assertion was simply that you may pass on the right (if the roadway is wide enough to permit such a maneuver), if there is enough room to do so. The car being passed on the right did not have to be turning. Just traveling below the speed limit.

The only things similar to the 'presenting an obstruction' idea are these:

Quote from: Texas Transportation Code, Sec. 545.058
An operator may drive on an improved shoulder to the right of the main traveled portion of a roadway if that operation is necessary and may be done safely, but only:

(4) to pass another vehicle that is ... disabled ...

(7) to avoid a collision.

So, no, a driver merely going a bit slower than you are doesn't count.

Sec. 545.057 does allow you to pass on the right (but not the shoulder) on a one-way road as long as the road is wide enough, but that's still not the situation anyone is describing here.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Kulerage

Quote from: webny99 on June 27, 2019, 04:10:38 PM
Quote from: Kulerage on June 27, 2019, 03:50:43 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 24, 2019, 01:36:47 PM
Quote from: Kulerage on June 23, 2019, 05:58:31 PM
I used to know of an example, but traffic could get so bad that very recently some turning lanes were finally added.
What was the setup? Two lanes each direction, or one lane each direction? (or more?)
There were two lanes for going forward, a left turn lane, but no right turning lane, meaning you had to use the rightmost straight lane for making right turns.

... so if there was a left turn lane, I guess it wouldn't have counted.

Yes. I dunno what came over me that day.

mrsman

#54
Quote from: webny99 on June 21, 2019, 02:57:44 PM
Hmmm. That isn't really done around here, and I'm not sure it would work at the intersection in question.

The problem is that in the morning rush, westbound backs up even as-is, without the extra wait time of the eastbound protected phase.
And in the afternoon rush, northbound backs up even as-is, without the extra wait time of the southbound protected phase.

The optimum solution would be: WB and SB get the protected phases in the AM, and EB and NB get the protected phases in the PM.
I do like the idea of the thru traffic in one direction getting two of the four phases. That would certainly be a necessity here to handle the eastbound volumes (around 1200 per hour between 4 and 6 PM).


Basically, a 4-way intersection with one lane in each direction could get stuck up with left turners.  Almost always, there is enough room for people to sneak around using the right "shoulder" (or parking lane, or just the mere widening at the intersection) assuming that only one car is turning left and that the car turning left is right on the yellow line to give the people behind him maximum room to manuever around.  In your intersection, it seems like that may only be the case in 2 of the 4 incoming directions without having to drive on grass.

(This is standard on many single lane per direction streets here.  Ofen the streets have room for parking, so there is room to pass on the right through the intersection.  IMO, this is smoother than 2 lanes per direction because the cars stuck behind the left turner would have to change lanes into another lane of moving traffic as opposed to changing lanes to the parking lane just to pass through the intersection.  Obviously at really busy points this won't work, like if there are multiple people turning, but when that is common, then the parking lanes get removed in favor of a proper turn lane.)

Is su;ch a movement considered passing on the right?  I'm not passing a vehicle moving slowly, I'm passing a vehicle that is stopped.  I beleive that if you were on a 2 lane roadway and a car has double parked, you should be able to go around a double yellow lane in order to pass the stopped vehicle (when there is no opposing traffic of course) even though it will be illegal to do that around a vehicle that is driving slow.  I believe it is also OK to pass around really slow vehicles like horse carriages and bicycles.

But as far as your question about allowing a protected left at different directions at different times, that should be OK so long as you make sure not to violate yellow trap in your signaling.  Since FYAs aren't used without a dedicated left turn lane, it means that the protected left must be leading.  I think short signal phases would also be helpful.

I know of a few intersections like that here, but they are multi-lane and even have a left turn lane.  Protected left is not triggered northbound in the AM rush, protected left is not triggerred southbound in the PM rush, at other times protected left will be triggered if there are cars in the left turn lane.  Pemitted left is always permitted.

To be honest at that intersection, there aren't too many turning left anyways, but they did not want any time taken away from the dominant movement of rush hour traffic.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0274704,-77.0765594,3a,75y,215.98h,88.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s70Qg62PIt0qMIJFhC0erHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Connecticut Ave and Knowles in Kensington, MD.  Sign reads "Left turn arrow does not operate M-F 7-9 AM".  On the opposite side it reads ""Left turn arrow does not operate M-F 4-6 PM"

webny99

Quote from: mrsman on July 05, 2019, 11:43:40 AM
Basically, a 4-way intersection with one lane in each direction could get stuck up with left turners.  Almost always, there is enough room for people to sneak around using the right "shoulder" (or parking lane, or just the mere widening at the intersection) assuming that only one car is turning left and that the car turning left is right on the yellow line to give the people behind him maximum room to manuever around.  In your intersection, it seems like that may only be the case in 2 of the 4 incoming directions without having to drive on grass.

This one does get stuck up with left turners. Use of the shoulder is common in all four directions, but especially eastbound. Southbound, you also have the shoulder being heavily used as a right turn lane - at least until it's blocked by straight traffic going around someone turning left! All told, thousands and thousands of cars use the shoulder every day. We're not just dealing with single cars making left turn movements; in the eastbound direction, we're dealing with 1200 cars per hour and in excess of 300 of those turning left; an average of 5-6 per minute during the PM rush. It comes as no surprise that backups are as common as they are, even despite the use of the shoulder.

mrsman

Quote from: webny99 on July 05, 2019, 03:09:05 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 05, 2019, 11:43:40 AM
Basically, a 4-way intersection with one lane in each direction could get stuck up with left turners.  Almost always, there is enough room for people to sneak around using the right "shoulder" (or parking lane, or just the mere widening at the intersection) assuming that only one car is turning left and that the car turning left is right on the yellow line to give the people behind him maximum room to manuever around.  In your intersection, it seems like that may only be the case in 2 of the 4 incoming directions without having to drive on grass.

This one does get stuck up with left turners. Use of the shoulder is common in all four directions, but especially eastbound. Southbound, you also have the shoulder being heavily used as a right turn lane - at least until it's blocked by straight traffic going around someone turning left! All told, thousands and thousands of cars use the shoulder every day. We're not just dealing with single cars making left turn movements; in the eastbound direction, we're dealing with 1200 cars per hour and in excess of 300 of those turning left; an average of 5-6 per minute during the PM rush. It comes as no surprise that backups are as common as they are, even despite the use of the shoulder.

I took another look at Atlantic/Five Mile.  From just looking at the GSV, it seems to be a rural intersection.  But looking at the map, once can really see how suburban the area has become and it really isn't that far from Rochester.

It really needs widening.

I would hate to recommend split-phasing, but in this situation it may be better for traffic.

webny99

Quote from: mrsman on July 05, 2019, 05:12:06 PM
I took another look at Atlantic/Five Mile.  From just looking at the GSV, it seems to be a rural intersection.  But looking at the map, once can really see how suburban the area has become and it really isn't that far from Rochester.
It really needs widening.
I would hate to recommend split-phasing, but in this situation it may be better for traffic.

I agree wholeheartedly. East of Five Mile Line was basically rural when I was a little kid; not so much anymore. In the last few years, a neighborhood with 80 or so houses has been built in the northeastern corner of the intersection, adding to the traffic woes. I think turn lanes on all approaches and four lanes heading east are easily warranted, but we will see how it plays out with the roundabout (crash prone modern, no doubt!  :)) supposedly being built next year.

webny99

Quote from: webny99 on July 06, 2019, 04:42:56 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 05, 2019, 05:12:06 PM
I took another look at Atlantic/Five Mile.  From just looking at the GSV, it seems to be a rural intersection.  But looking at the map, once can really see how suburban the area has become and it really isn't that far from Rochester.
It really needs widening.
I would hate to recommend split-phasing, but in this situation it may be better for traffic.

I agree wholeheartedly. East of Five Mile Line was basically rural when I was a little kid; not so much anymore. In the last few years, a neighborhood with 80 or so houses has been built in the northeastern corner of the intersection, adding to the traffic woes. I think turn lanes on all approaches and four lanes heading east are easily warranted, but we will see how it plays out with the roundabout (crash prone modern, no doubt!  :)) supposedly being built next year.

Coming back to this (old) post to note that intersection improvements at this intersection are now complete! There's new left turn lanes on all approaches and a southbound right turn lane. Sidewalks, crosswalks, and striping aren't quite finished yet, but functionally it's more or less complete, and it's about time! Now a much smoother experience than the previous shoulder-bumping stop-and-go slugfest.

US20IL64

Left turning lanes came late to IL-38/Roosevelt Rd [and many other busy 4 lane routes] through DuPage Co. IL. As late as 1986, traffic was dreadful, with numerous cars signaling to turn into many driveways for businesses. Finally added 5th lane in 1987.

Now, most 4 lane major roads have turning lane. But, go into west Cook Co, and it's the 1960's again, with cars dodging left turners, without signaling and near misses.  There is room in places for a lane, but too cheap, or just :crazy:  NW Cook is better, btw. In the city, most major intersections have turn lanes, but for going to a side street, alley, or driveway, no room for any.

MCRoads

Oklahoma has TONNES of them. There is probably a 40/60 split between busy, signalized intersections with no turn lanes whatsoever, and left turning lanes only. Occasionally you find a right turn lane. Everywhere else I've lived turn lanes, both left and right, are very common, if not standard.
I build roads on Minecraft. Like, really good roads.
Interstates traveled:
4/5/10*/11**/12**/15/25*/29*/35(E/W[TX])/40*/44**/49(LA**)/55*/64**/65/66*/70°/71*76(PA*,CO*)/78*°/80*/95°/99(PA**,NY**)

*/** indicates a terminus/termini being traveled
° Indicates a gap (I.E Breezwood, PA.)

more room plz

webny99

#61
I just realized I failed to mention the most insane intersection with no turning lanes, Main St at Jefferson Rd in Pittsford, NY. The combined lack of turning lanes and lack of shoulders for passing makes this a literal nightmare to deal with. One single slow car that refuses to squeak through a small gap in traffic or go on red can back traffic up for blocks.. hours.. miles.. you name it. It is truly unfathomable that this exists in one of the wealthiest towns in a developed first world country, that hundreds of $100k+ vehicles poke around in this mess every single day, that one of the most highly rated suburbs in the nation has done absolutely nothing to address it for decades... it's beyond my comprehension.

1995hoo

Quote from: MCRoads on October 19, 2021, 06:15:43 PM
... TONNES ....

Poiponen13 would approve of this post. Sounds like something out of his "metrication" thread.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

jakeroot

Quote from: webny99 on January 03, 2024, 04:37:43 PM
I just realized I failed to mention the most insane intersection with no turning lanes, Main St at Jefferson Rd in Pittsford, NY. The combined lack of turning lanes and lack of shoulders for passing makes this a literal nightmare to deal with. One single slow car that refuses to squeak through a small gap in traffic or go on red can back traffic up for blocks.. hours.. miles.. you name it. It is truly unfathomable that this exists in one of the wealthiest towns in a developed first world country, that hundreds of $100k+ vehicles poke around in this mess every single day, that one of the most highly rated suburbs in the nation has done absolutely nothing to address it for decades... it's beyond my comprehension.

The easiest solution, and one that I hope is employed regularly, is for traffic turning left to pull completely into the intersection enough that through or right-turning traffic can pass them while they are waiting for a gap.

This situation occurs regularly at this intersection in Okinawa, Japan (another first world country...) that has no right turn lanes (Japan drives on the left). Traffic inches out into the middle (GSV car is turning right in that link) so that through traffic can pass around them. All it takes is for there to be two turning cars for traffic to halt, but at least those cars can go at the end.

I see less of this in America for a few reasons: (1) drivers don't pull out far enough; (2) drivers think their cars are bigger than they are so they don't attempt to "undertake" the turning car; and (3) people think it is illegal to pass on the outside in the intersection.

#3 is the most irritating to me. Drivers regularly break all sorts of laws that they know exist, and yet they'll happily make up a law about not being able to creep out while turning, or passing on the outside of a left-turning driver in the intersection, and act like they'll get thrown in jail for doing so, even if doing so could mean greatly improving traffic flow at the intersection. Meanwhile thinking nothing of going 15+ over the limit, California stops, texting and driving, etc. If you're gonna break a law, made-up or not, at least break one that benefits traffic flow.

1995hoo

^^^^

I note how that intersection seems to have a lot of room to either side to allow for passing like that. I can think of plenty of urban intersections with very busy crosswalks where there isn't anywhere near that amount of room to get around turning vehicles on the outside unless the passing driver were to try to go into the crosswalk (obviously a bad idea if the crosswalk is busy)—plus, of course, there is the further problem where someone gets stuck behind cars turning both left (yield to oncoming traffic) and right (yield to pedestrians in crosswalk).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

webny99

Quote from: jakeroot on January 04, 2024, 12:48:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 03, 2024, 04:37:43 PM
I just realized I failed to mention the most insane intersection with no turning lanes, Main St at Jefferson Rd in Pittsford, NY. The combined lack of turning lanes and lack of shoulders for passing makes this a literal nightmare to deal with. One single slow car that refuses to squeak through a small gap in traffic or go on red can back traffic up for blocks.. hours.. miles.. you name it. It is truly unfathomable that this exists in one of the wealthiest towns in a developed first world country, that hundreds of $100k+ vehicles poke around in this mess every single day, that one of the most highly rated suburbs in the nation has done absolutely nothing to address it for decades... it's beyond my comprehension.

The easiest solution, and one that I hope is employed regularly, is for traffic turning left to pull completely into the intersection enough that through or right-turning traffic can pass them while they are waiting for a gap.

Yes, that is employed quite often - just not often enough that the intersection usually flows smoothly. All it takes is just one or two left turners not doing this to back things up considerably, especially during arrival/dismissal times at the nearby high school.


Quote from: jakeroot on January 04, 2024, 12:48:40 PM
I see less of this in America for a few reasons: (1) drivers don't pull out far enough; (2) drivers think their cars are bigger than they are so they don't attempt to "undertake" the turning car; and (3) people think it is illegal to pass on the outside in the intersection.
All valid points, although I would suggest that (2) is really more about wildly unrealistic expectations for "personal space" which have been building up unhindered in this country during decades of relative wealth and prosperity.

Speaking of which, twice recently I've been honked at for using the shoulder to pass a left turning vehicle. In both cases, I strongly suspect the honking was a response to what they viewed as a near-sideswipe (i.e. my vehicle's physical proximity to theirs), not a general objection to the passing maneuver. I say "they viewed" because I did not view it that way at all. Both were just normal shoulder passing maneuvers in which I tried (and apparently failed) to balance not getting too close to them with maintaining speed and remaining on the paved shoulder. In both cases, I chuckled at their over-privileged attitude gave a friendly honk in return.


Quote from: jakeroot on January 04, 2024, 12:48:40 PM
#3 is the most irritating to me. Drivers regularly break all sorts of laws that they know exist, and yet they'll happily make up a law about not being able to creep out while turning, or passing on the outside of a left-turning driver in the intersection, and act like they'll get thrown in jail for doing so, even if doing so could mean greatly improving traffic flow at the intersection. Meanwhile thinking nothing of going 15+ over the limit, California stops, texting and driving, etc. If you're gonna break a law, made-up or not, at least break one that benefits traffic flow.

Totally agreed, although I tend to be the opposite extreme in this regard. I will generally do what's most efficient with very little regard for the technical laws that may govern the situation, except to the extent required to ensure safety at all times.

webny99

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 04, 2024, 12:57:00 PM
^^^^

I note how that intersection seems to have a lot of room to either side to allow for passing like that. I can think of plenty of urban intersections with very busy crosswalks where there isn't anywhere near that amount of room to get around turning vehicles on the outside unless the passing driver were to try to go into the crosswalk (obviously a bad idea if the crosswalk is busy)—plus, of course, there is the further problem where someone gets stuck behind cars turning both left (yield to oncoming traffic) and right (yield to pedestrians in crosswalk).

That is a bit more expected in urban or otherwise pedestrian-heavy areas, like a mall or shopping center, or where there's real space/ROW constraints that restrict expansion. This is technically in the village of Pittsford, but the area is very suburban in nature. There's very little pedestrian traffic until you get within a block or so of NY 31 (State St) or further north/east (in the vicinity of Schoen Place).

1995hoo

Quote from: webny99 on January 04, 2024, 04:11:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 04, 2024, 12:57:00 PM
^^^^

I note how that intersection seems to have a lot of room to either side to allow for passing like that. I can think of plenty of urban intersections with very busy crosswalks where there isn't anywhere near that amount of room to get around turning vehicles on the outside unless the passing driver were to try to go into the crosswalk (obviously a bad idea if the crosswalk is busy)—plus, of course, there is the further problem where someone gets stuck behind cars turning both left (yield to oncoming traffic) and right (yield to pedestrians in crosswalk).

That is a bit more expected in urban or otherwise pedestrian-heavy areas, like a mall or shopping center, or where there's real space/ROW constraints that restrict expansion. This is technically in the village of Pittsford, but the area is very suburban in nature. There's very little pedestrian traffic until you get within a block or so of NY 31 (State St) or further north/east (in the vicinity of Schoen Place).

Note that I was referring to the Japanese intersection seen in the links jakeroot posted.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

webny99

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 04, 2024, 04:24:19 PM
Note that I was referring to the Japanese intersection seen in the links jakeroot posted.

Whoops, I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. The extra space could also come in handy for turning right on red (not sure if that's common in Japan or not), where you could at least theoretically pull in front the crosswalk and allow pedestrian traffic to cross behind you while waiting to make your turn.

mrsman

With regard to the Okinawa intersection, yes it does seem very wide, and that is a good thing, that seems to lead to the ability to pass.

In fact, this GSV seems to cover a passing manuever:

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.325515,127.7824573,3a,75y,158.69h,82.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swHd1HrGEFt5h8yECyihINw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

From our POV, there are two cars where we are looking at their rear.  The car on the left is passing the car on the right (with brake lights on) that is stopped looking for a gap to make the right turn.  Given the geometry, it seem like there is enough space to make this maneuver for up to 3 cars making a right turn.


With regard to Pittsford, perhaps webny, you can provide a little more clarity for us.  It seems that both Main and Jefferson have shoulders on both sides of the street approaching the intersection.  How wide is each street?  It certainly seems possible to have the room to allow for passing (for passenger cars, but probably not buses/trucks), if the yellow line were slightly moved on each approach to the intersection. 

For low speed streets, standard driving lanes are 10 feet and standard parking lanes are 8 feet.  Ostensibly on an approach to the intersection, if you have 16 feet in the direction approaching the intersection and 10 feet leaving the intersection (total width of 26 feet), there should be enough room to allow for a relatively safe low speed pass on the right maneuver.  Hard to tell exactly, but given the painted shoulder, I would think that each street would be at least 26 feet wide and Jefferson seems to be about 30 feet.  They could probably paint a regular left turn lane on Jefferson with three 10 foot lanes (east, left, west). 

So yes, if the yellow line were left on the exact center of those streets, there is no passing room, but there could be with some creative repainting.

mrsman

As a follow up to above, I remember a street in Sacramento that was somewhat similar to the situation in Pittsford, NY:

H Street in Sacramento, between 30th and Cal State U. of Sacramento, is basically one lane in each direction with a narrow bike lane in each direction (essentially a shoulder) and from the vantage point of GSV, it does not appear to be much wider (curb to curb) than Jefferson in Pittsford:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5718749,-121.4525818,3a,75y,293.2h,64.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFAhH0rfC8_PUW7Sj05-mhQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e3?entry=ttu

But watch what happens as we approach an intersection with a traffic signal.  A lane shift to accommodate a left turn lane (and a brief break in the bike lanes to account for the space).

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.572042,-121.45319,3a,37.5y,292.78h,87.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGb8btZXgqDUVDGzf5RpMXg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e3?entry=ttu




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