Minnesota Notes

[TheHighwayMan3561]

As for the Blatnik Bridge, would be a shame to put in yet another girder bridge. Maybe we can get the first cable-stayed bridge in the region?

At best, we'll probably get another cable-arch bridge like the Bong.
It is an opportunity to do something different on the Superior end of 535, though.  Nothing like having to slow down for a loop ramp after coming down a long, downhill and then cross the other direction of traffic at-grade.  Since a new bridge will have to be shifted east or west from the existing bridge, it would be a great time to come up with something better.

This would probably cost more money than WISDOT has or wants to put into this, but realign 535 into 53 as the through movement and have Hammond Avenue meet Tower Avenue at surface level. Superior has been banging its head into walls for 40 years regarding Hammond between the end of 535 and the intersection with US 2/Belknap St.

(proactively says hi to Rothman before he enters this conversation)

[DJ Particle]

The Ohio Turnpike has announced that Minnesota will be joining E-ZPass in August.

This is what will finally make me get a pass...

[TheHighwayMan3561]

A much needed project to clean up MN 7 between 494 and Shorewood for 2021.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/projects/hwy7minnetonka-shorewood/index.html?utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_name=&utm_source=govdelivery&utm_term=

[mgk920]

As for the Blatnik Bridge, would be a shame to put in yet another girder bridge. Maybe we can get the first cable-stayed bridge in the region?

At best, we'll probably get another cable-arch bridge like the Bong.
It is an opportunity to do something different on the Superior end of 535, though.  Nothing like having to slow down for a loop ramp after coming down a long, downhill and then cross the other direction of traffic at-grade.  Since a new bridge will have to be shifted east or west from the existing bridge, it would be a great time to come up with something better.

This would probably cost more money than WISDOT has or wants to put into this, but realign 535 into 53 as the through movement and have Hammond Avenue meet Tower Avenue at surface level. Superior has been banging its head into walls for 40 years regarding Hammond between the end of 535 and the intersection with US 2/Belknap St.

(proactively says hi to Rothman before he enters this conversation)

To me building a new signature bridge next to the current bridge and then demoing the existing one is a no-brainer.  I also very much like the idea of reconfiguring the Superior end of the bridge to better handle its traffic into and out of the downtown area, in addition to a better US 53 continuation, with a potential southeastward extension of I-535 as part of that mix.

One thought in that article that also intrigued me is an idea to include a pedestrian/bicycle pathway on the new bridge, something that the current crossing lacks.  There is USBR activity in that area and a new Blatnik Bridge would be an ideal way for that all to cross between the cities.

Mike

[Rothman]

When I lived in Superior, there were no traffic issues getting on or off the Blatnik.  The only annoyance was the low, highly enforced speed limit heading south on WI 35 by the airport and Menards.

Wait, southward extension of I-535?  Why?  That would do more harm than good (I take it you mean following US 2 along the shore?).  Lots of community activities out that way.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Wait, southward extension of I-535?  Why?  That would do more harm than good (I take it you mean following US 2 along the shore?).  Lots of community activities out that way.

Probably to link up with the 53 expressway. Not needed, but at the same time I wouldn't be opposed to cleaning up some of the intersection spacing in East End along 2nd Street where sight lines can be touch and go.

[midwesternroadguy]

A much needed project to clean up MN 7 between 494 and Shorewood for 2021.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/projects/hwy7minnetonka-shorewood/index.html?utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_name=&utm_source=govdelivery&utm_term=

What was of even more interest on that webpage is the link for the four-lane expansion of US 212 between Cologne and Chaska with construction intending to start in Fall 2021.  This is certainly one of the busiest rural two-lane highways in Minnesota.  And overdue for expansion. 

[JREwing78]

Wait, southward extension of I-535?  Why?  That would do more harm than good (I take it you mean following US 2 along the shore?).  Lots of community activities out that way.

Probably to link up with the 53 expressway. Not needed, but at the same time I wouldn't be opposed to cleaning up some of the intersection spacing in East End along 2nd Street where sight lines can be touch and go.

If you relocate where the I-535 bridge touches down in Superior to along the rail lines west of downtown, you can bring it straight south and around the south end of Bong Airport without having to touch very many residences.

This would be pure fantasy land; it's unlikely in the next 50 years that US-2/53 would ever become so congested that it would be necessary.

[Rothman]

Wait, southward extension of I-535?  Why?  That would do more harm than good (I take it you mean following US 2 along the shore?).  Lots of community activities out that way.

Probably to link up with the 53 expressway. Not needed, but at the same time I wouldn't be opposed to cleaning up some of the intersection spacing in East End along 2nd Street where sight lines can be touch and go.

If you relocate where the I-535 bridge touches down in Superior to along the rail lines west of downtown, you can bring it straight south and around the south end of Bong Airport without having to touch very many residences.

This would be pure fantasy land; it's unlikely in the next 50 years that US-2/53 would ever become so congested that it would be necessary.

Through Billings Park?  That's the affluent part of Superior.  So, no.  Also, west of Superior is served by the Bong.

This idea of extending I-535 just seems like it's being promoted just because we like highways rather than out of some actual need.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

This idea of extending I-535 just seems like it's being promoted just because we like highways rather than out of some actual need.

That's what's gonna happen when you get a niche/focus board like this, though. It's just like MN 61 across the bay where it just irks some people that there's a gap in a freeway/expressway and they will want to see it filled to make it look neat rather than out of need.

[triplemultiplex]

If you relocate where the I-535 bridge touches down in Superior to along the rail lines west of downtown, you can bring it straight south and around the south end of Bong Airport without having to touch very many residences.

Through Billings Park?  That's the affluent part of Superior.  So, no.

No, you'd follow the east edge of the railroad yard just west of downtown Superior. It's a nearly unobstructed path to the Douglas County Fairgrounds, especially if one shifts the railroad west one freeway-width.  Nothing in the way to land the bridge on the Wisconsin side east of western grain elevator cluster.

Moot point as there's no money for it and the traffic isn't really there and WisDOT abandoned any ideas for filling that freeway gap in Superior decades ago.  But the point is, such an idea would miss the nice neighborhood by a wide margin.

[Rothman]

If you relocate where the I-535 bridge touches down in Superior to along the rail lines west of downtown, you can bring it straight south and around the south end of Bong Airport without having to touch very many residences.

Through Billings Park?  That's the affluent part of Superior.  So, no.

No, you'd follow the east edge of the railroad yard just west of downtown Superior. It's a nearly unobstructed path to the Douglas County Fairgrounds, especially if one shifts the railroad west one freeway-width.  Nothing in the way to land the bridge on the Wisconsin side east of western grain elevator cluster.

Moot point as there's no money for it and the traffic isn't really there and WisDOT abandoned any ideas for filling that freeway gap in Superior decades ago.  But the point is, such an idea would miss the nice neighborhood by a wide margin.

I don't think you could build it through there due to the terrain.  It would be even more prohibitively expensive and perhaps impossible if the land is owned by the railroad if terrain isn't an issue.

Remember that you're talking about a city that handed over one out of three lots to the railroad to attract it there before Duluth.  Although it has diminished over the year, the railroad still looms over Superior and would probably be a formidable interest to deal with.

Still not sure what the purpose of this idea is.  Most traffic from Duluth terminates in Superior.  There is nothing south of Superior except small lakes where Superiorites own their summer cabins.

[triplemultiplex]

I don't think you could build it through there due to the terrain.  It would be even more prohibitively expensive and perhaps impossible if the land is owned by the railroad if terrain isn't an issue.

The land is pancake flat in Superior.  All of the topography is on the Minnesota side of the Twin Ports.  One needs to get miles south of the outskirts of Superior before encountering any terrain remotely as steep as Duluth.

One look at some aerial photos of the area reveals how much space there is to work with through the rail yards that divide Billings Park from the rest of Superior.  All of the tracks are to the west save for one off by it's lonesome near the east edge that really only serves as a bypass of the rail yard.  Plenty of room to shift it over enough to fit in a four-lane freeway.

But as we've all discussed, it's not needed.  My point here is if one wanted to do it, such construction would be quite easy.

[froggie]

I suspect it may not be as easy as you make it.  That close proximity to existing/former rail yards may mean contaminated soil.

[Rothman]

I don't think you could build it through there due to the terrain.  It would be even more prohibitively expensive and perhaps impossible if the land is owned by the railroad if terrain isn't an issue.

The land is pancake flat in Superior.  All of the topography is on the Minnesota side of the Twin Ports.  One needs to get miles south of the outskirts of Superior before encountering any terrain remotely as steep as Duluth.

One look at some aerial photos of the area reveals how much space there is to work with through the rail yards that divide Billings Park from the rest of Superior.  All of the tracks are to the west save for one off by it's lonesome near the east edge that really only serves as a bypass of the rail yard.  Plenty of room to shift it over enough to fit in a four-lane freeway.

But as we've all discussed, it's not needed.  My point here is if one wanted to do it, such construction would be quite easy.

Flat, somewhat.  But it's also swampy.  Elevation isn't the only terrain obstacle.  There's more than one reason the Belknap bridge goes over that empty space (which, in of itself would also be a major obstacle).

[Rothman]

I suspect it may not be as easy as you make it.  That close proximity to existing/former rail yards may mean contaminated soil.

Remember the benzene spill which caused one of the largest inland evacuations in U.S. history...

[triplemultiplex]

I should note that the regolith underneath Superior is pure clay, which is why it was naturally swampy.  But that clay also means very slow infiltration of contaminants.  Meaning it's less dirt one has to dig up if some asshole spills/dumps poison.

That clay is what gives all the tributary streams on the Wisconsin side that reddish-brown color when it rains/snow melts.
I'm fighting the urge to go off on a tangent about the fascinating geologic history of the region.  Don't want to bore everyone with jargon like "lacustrine sediment" and "differential isostatic rebound."

[Bickendan]

I should note that the regolith underneath Superior is pure clay, which is why it was naturally swampy.  But that clay also means very slow infiltration of contaminants.  Meaning it's less dirt one has to dig up if some asshole spills/dumps poison.

That clay is what gives all the tributary streams on the Wisconsin side that reddish-brown color when it rains/snow melts.
I'm fighting the urge to go off on a tangent about the fascinating geologic history of the region.  Don't want to bore everyone with jargon like "lacustrine sediment" and "differential isostatic rebound."

That stuff is fascinating for me at least, hah.

[Papa Emeritus]

Today's Star Tribune has an article about plans for new interchanges on US 10 at Sunfish Lake Boulevard and Ramsey Boulevard. Construction is planned for 2024.

Interchanges will be built next year at Thurston Ave and Fair Oaks Ave, so the Sunfish Lake and Ramsey interchanges will make US 10 a freeway from Elk River to Mounds View. Here's a link:

https://www.startribune.com/plans-to-fix-hwy-10-in-ramsey-minn-take-shape/600025821/

I'm glad MnDoT has recognized that the Thurston and Fair Oaks interchanges will be making congestion worse elsewhere on US 10, and is building the Sunfish Lake and Ramsey interchanges to smooth out the traffic flow on US 10. However, the article says roundabouts are now planned in lieu of traffic lights at the on / off ramps of the Sunfish Lake and Ramsey interchanges; I'm not sure how well roundabouts will work......

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Because Ramsey and Sunfish Lake are glorified T-intersections with minimal need for traffic to go to the south (just the Comfort Suites off Sunfish Lake and the Holiday station at Ramsey), the roundabouts make sense.

[kphoger]

Wow, I really misunderstood at first.  I thought they were talking about replacing the existing stoplight intersections with at-grade roundabouts.  Now I love a good roundabout more than the average bear, but I was thinking BAD IDEA!.  Then I saw the phrase 'grade-separated', and peace of mind was restored.

(In other news...  When did the Burger King at Ramsey Blvd close down?)

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Wow, I really misunderstood at first.  I thought they were talking about replacing the existing stoplight intersections with at-grade roundabouts.  Now I love a good roundabout more than the average bear, but I was thinking BAD IDEA!.  Then I saw the phrase 'grade-separated', and peace of mind was restored.

I kind of had to rub my eyes at that a bit too and make sure it was the off-ramps being referred to.

(In other news...  When did the Burger King at Ramsey Blvd close down?)

I think that happened in the late fall.

Should also clarify it won't be entirely freeway from Elk River to 35W, as there are a number of minor at-grade crossings between the last Ramsey interchange at Armstrong Blvd and the first Elk River stoplight at 171st Ave. Personally I really hate the crossing at 165th Ave in front of the Broadway Pizza on the edge of Elk River, and wouldn't be opposed to RIROing that.

[kphoger]

Should also clarify it won't be entirely freeway from Elk River to 35W, as there are a number of minor at-grade crossings between the last Ramsey interchange at Armstrong Blvd and the first Elk River stoplight at 171st Ave.

Oh, I wouldn't expect a full freeway from Coon Rapids to Elk River.  Well, maybe in my dreams...

Personally I really hate the crossing at 165th Ave in front of the Broadway Pizza on the edge of Elk River, and wouldn't be opposed to RIROing that.

167th, you mean?

I haven't been west of Ramsey Blvd in ages, so I can't comment on those minor crossroads.  What is it about that particular one?  Heavy traffic usage, poor sight lines, poor queue storage, ...?

[Papa Emeritus]

Should also clarify it won't be entirely freeway from Elk River to 35W, as there are a number of minor at-grade crossings between the last Ramsey interchange at Armstrong Blvd and the first Elk River stoplight at 171st Ave.

Oh, I wouldn't expect a full freeway from Coon Rapids to Elk River.  Well, maybe in my dreams...

Personally I really hate the crossing at 165th Ave in front of the Broadway Pizza on the edge of Elk River, and wouldn't be opposed to RIROing that.

167th, you mean?

I haven't been west of Ramsey Blvd in ages, so I can't comment on those minor crossroads.  What is it about that particular one?  Heavy traffic usage, poor sight lines, poor queue storage, ...?

I think freeway from Elk River to Coon Rapids (or whatever name the City of Coon Rapids is referred to in 5 - 10 years, if plans to rename the city become a reality) isn't unlikely.

Once the last two interchanges are built, speeds on the route will increase. It's inevitable that faster speeds will result in a really bad accident, where someone thinks they can safely make it through one of the minor at grade crossings, but fails to do so, with lethal consequences. Once that happens, MnDoT is likely to intervene and try to eliminate the rest of the at grade crossings.

[Papa Emeritus]

In non-road related news, the light rail line between Minneapolis and Eden Prairie has fallen behind schedule due to poor soil conditions in the area between Cedar Lake and Lake of the Isles. It was scheduled to open in the fall of 2023; no new opening date has been announced.

https://www.startribune.com/opening-of-southwest-light-rail-delayed-due-to-construction-challenges/600010482/

I always thought it would have made more sense for the light rail line to enter Uptown via the Greenway, then go to downtown Minneapolis via Hennepin Avenue or Lyndale. The population density in Uptown is much higher than in the area west of Lake of the Isles where the line will be routed, and light rail would have boosted Uptown's economy, something that was needed a few years ago and now is critical because many businesses in Uptown have closed over the last year due to Covid and / or damage from last summer's unrest,

It hasn't made the Star Tribune yet, but a community newspaper (the St Louis Park / Hopkins Sun Sailor) says the soil problems on the light rail line between Cedar Lake and Lake of the Isles could cause that stretch of the line to open YEARS, not months, behind schedule.

St Louis Park is pushing MnDoT to at least complete construction of the light rail line through St Louis Park on the original schedule, so St Louis Park can reopen local roads, and the Midtown Greenway Bike Trail, that have been closed for construction.

One of my concerns about light rail delays, with the associated additional construction expenses, is that if it costs significantly more to complete the light rail line, this could suck up money that could otherwise be used for road improvements in the Twin Cities and / or be the catalyst for a gas tax increase.