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Stop signs that make no sense

Started by Molandfreak, September 18, 2014, 04:43:15 PM

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Molandfreak

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9198532,-92.8829296,3a,75y,291.19h,64.99t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s7P-PenY89nHr0g540cnwhA!2e0

I guess Cottage Grove Drive used to come through to here, but what was the point of keeping this stop sign? The trail on the right is on private property, so it gets very little use, and I doubt very many people walk from the left either...
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PM
AASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.


roadman

#1
"Well, the City Council did vote to put a road in there.  But so far, we've only raised enough money to put in the Stop sign."

Sheriff Andy Taylor - Town of Mayberry, NC.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

DaBigE

At least they decided to still warn you about it. Leave it for cheap speed control?
"We gotta find this road, it's like Bob's road!" - Rabbit, Twister

NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

PHLBOS

If you think that's bad; feel free to stop by in southeastern PA.  There's plenty of illogically-placed STOP signs there.

Green Lane in Upper Darby Twp., Delaware County, PA

Wynnbrooke Road, same town; for a pedestrian path that does not continue across the street 
Is it me or does those crosswalk stripes lead to a curbed-drainage inlet and grass strip between the street & sidewalk?

Those are two examples right off the top of my head.  There are others.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

freebrickproductions

It's all fun & games until someone summons Cthulhu and brings about the end of the world.

I also collect traffic lights, road signs, fans, and railroad crossing equipment.

(They/Them)

Roadrunner75

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 18, 2014, 05:57:47 PM
Wynnbrooke Road, same town; for a pedestrian path that does not continue across the street 
Is it me or does those crosswalk stripes lead to a curbed-drainage inlet and grass strip between the street & sidewalk?
That's ADA accessible, right?

Even worse, here's where the path comes out on the other end, with the crosswalk connecting two curb inlets:
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=39.913523,-75.304737&spn=0.001053,0.669479&cbll=39.913523,-75.304737&layer=c&panoid=a9wbQURQ_A5QgVNqj8LPpA&cbp=12,207.46,,0,7.82&t=m&z=11


vdeane

In the neighborhood where I grew up, there's a T junction where the lone stop sign is not on the ending street as expected but on one direction of the main street.  I can only conclude that it's there for speed control.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Roadrunner75

Quote from: vdeane on September 18, 2014, 07:13:44 PM
In the neighborhood where I grew up, there's a T junction where the lone stop sign is not on the ending street as expected but on one direction of the main street.  I can only conclude that it's there for speed control.
Sounds like the stop sign's purpose is to give the stopping vehicle a front row seat to watch a car coming out of the ending street get t-boned making a left.

Big John


Ned Weasel

#10
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on September 18, 2014, 07:46:27 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 18, 2014, 07:13:44 PM
In the neighborhood where I grew up, there's a T junction where the lone stop sign is not on the ending street as expected but on one direction of the main street.  I can only conclude that it's there for speed control.
Sounds like the stop sign's purpose is to give the stopping vehicle a front row seat to watch a car coming out of the ending street get t-boned making a left.


I wouldn't assume it's necessarily for speed control (or for nefarious purposes).  If the majority of traffic makes a 90-degree turn at this intersection, it's reasonable to assign precedence to that 90-degree turn in both directions and have the through street stop or yield when approaching the intersection from the less-traveled side.

Consider this example, but note that the less-traveled approach from the through street is controlled by a yield sign instead of a stop sign:

Approach from ending street:
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=38.963794,-95.22389&spn=0.000846,0.001321&t=k&z=20&layer=c&cbll=38.963796,-95.224007&panoid=m2i6ock3XdHGI4SdnwQfJA&cbp=12,94.01,,0,5.48

Yielding approach from through street:
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=38.963986,-95.223513&spn=0.000846,0.001321&t=k&z=20&layer=c&cbll=38.963986,-95.223513&panoid=elyPWnGZbv3RJYBJhdhI2g&cbp=12,182.49,,0,-4.48

Prioritized approach from through street:
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=38.963456,-95.223514&spn=0.000846,0.001321&t=k&z=20&layer=c&cbll=38.963546,-95.223515&panoid=DzYD9OC8mmg7nbmwQFxciQ&cbp=12,359.06,,0,14.53

I believe the order of precedence is as follows:
NB Haskell Ave. to WB 11th Street = EB 11th Street to SB Haskell Ave. = NB Haskell Ave. to NB Haskell Ave. > EB 11th Street to NB Haskell Ave. > SB Haskell Ave. to SB Haskell Ave. = SB Haskell Ave. to WB 11th Street

I believe this holds regardless of whether there is a "Left Turn Yield" sign on the approach from the ending street, and regardless of whether the sign controlling the less-traveled approach from the through street is a stop sign or a yield sign.
"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.

signalman

I can think of two examples on roads that I use on occasion.  Unfortunately, there's no GSV for either one of them  :-(
The one is on Flora Ave. in Hopatcong, NJ.  The other is on Forge Rd, transitioning on to Lincoln Ave in East Stroudsburg, PA.  I'll try to remember to get photographs of them the next time I drive on those roads.

jeffandnicole

Stop signs are not supposed to be used for speed control. 

Having said that, PA loves their stop signs, especially thru residential neighborhoods.  Many of them are questionable as to their legality; some are absolutely illegal, as they are clearly being used for speed control.  And in a few of the examples above, if they try to claim it's for pedestrian safety, then they are afoul of ADA accessibility too.

PHLBOS

#13
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 19, 2014, 04:50:44 AM
Stop signs are not supposed to be used for speed control. 

Having said that, PA loves their stop signs, especially thru residential neighborhoods.  Many of them are questionable as to their legality; some are absolutely illegal, as they are clearly being used for speed control.  And in a few of the examples above, if they try to claim it's for pedestrian safety, then they are afoul of ADA accessibility too.
Here's the thing (and I agree w/your above-statement BTW); the way local law enforcement agencies gets around that is that many of the tickets issued are for "failing to heed a traffic-control device" rather than "failing to stop at a STOP sign"; the latter carries a more severe penalty. 

It's almost as if they're indirectly admitting that the erections of those particular STOP signs do not meet the criteria & protocol for such.

As far as the noncompliant ADA issues are concerned; many of these were erected/striped either prior to the implementation of the original ADA of 1991 or prior to its subsequent ammendments/upgrades.  If the sidewalk & roadway are redone/reconfigured; then such need to be built to the latest ADA standards.  The only way those would get changed, outside of what's outlined above, would be if a disabled person filed a lawsuit against the township where the issue exists.  The roads in question are all local roads not county or state roads.

Here's another illogical set of STOP signs placed at a T-intersection where the minor road is a one-way street heading away from the main road traffic. 

Academy Ave. & Hutchinson Ter. in Ridley Twp., PA  Stupid!  Stupid!  Stupid!  :banghead:
GPS does NOT equal GOD

roadman

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 18, 2014, 05:57:47 PM
If you think that's bad; feel free to stop by in southeastern PA.  There's plenty of illogically-placed STOP signs there.

Green Lane in Upper Darby Twp., Delaware County, PA

Wynnbrooke Road, same town; for a pedestrian path that does not continue across the street 
Is it me or does those crosswalk stripes lead to a curbed-drainage inlet and grass strip between the street & sidewalk?

Those are two examples right off the top of my head.  There are others.
PA also has an unhealthy obsession with placing "EXCEPT RIGHT TURN" plates with certain stop signs.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

Roadrunner75

Quote from: stridentweasel on September 19, 2014, 01:40:04 AM
I wouldn't assume it's necessarily for speed control (or for nefarious purposes).  If the majority of traffic makes a 90-degree turn at this intersection, it's reasonable to assign precedence to that 90-degree turn in both directions and have the through street stop or yield when approaching the intersection from the less-traveled side.

Consider this example, but note that the less-traveled approach from the through street is controlled by a yield sign instead of a stop sign:

I believe this holds regardless of whether there is a "Left Turn Yield" sign on the approach from the ending street, and regardless of whether the sign controlling the less-traveled approach from the through street is a stop sign or a yield sign.
I've seen a few situations like this with a stop sign (on the ending street) with an "Except Right Turn" sign under it, like the following example (but a T intersection instead):
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.527778,-75.716776&spn=0.000016,0.010461&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.527566,-75.718419&panoid=Z-aIqzg6vPmPPNtphlT4OQ&cbp=12,328.89,,0,1.26
I don't like this type of signage - having a second sign negate the stop sign in certain situations.  Stop should mean Stop.  A driver on one of the other approach roads will see the back of the stop sign and assume that the other driver has to stop, not knowing about the second sign.

Zeffy

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 19, 2014, 09:03:41 AM
Here's another illogical set of STOP signs placed at a T-intersection where the minor road is a one-way street heading away from the main road traffic. 

Academy Ave. & Hutchinson Ter. in Ridley Twp., PA  Stupid!  Stupid!  Stupid!  :banghead:

In this case, there shouldn't even be a set of stop signs.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

vdeane

In the case of the one I posted, the stop sign is on the most traveled approach, the one that goes to/from the main road.  Local traffic should be evenly split given that the street ends at another that dead ends a couple houses later, but non-locals using the neighborhood as a cut-through around the Winton/Westfall light incorrectly assume that Cohasset is the correct street to use (it's not, due to the sharp turn that takes many by surprise).  I've never heard of a severe accident though.  It's pretty much impossible to go significantly faster than the posted speed limit of 25 due to curves and intersections.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1189742,-77.5667863,3a,75y,126.63h,75.22t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1swEJzSsdYxAfcW_9ypleNPA!2e0
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

PHLBOS

Quote from: roadman on September 19, 2014, 09:36:42 AMPA also has an unhealthy obsession with placing "EXCEPT RIGHT TURN" plates with certain stop signs.
At least those are usually located on roads that actually warrant a STOP sign in certain instances. 

Note: PennDOT roads (identified with small SR XXXX signs) follow MUTCD standards for STOP signs by the book; it's the local roads in SEPA that go rouge w/STOP signs. 

One road near me, Franklin Ave. in Ridley Township, was once a PennDOT road (either SR 2016 or 2012 prior to 1996 or 1997) but when people wanted STOP signs erected for traffic calming/speed control; PennDOT said "No way."  As a result, the township took the road back from PennDOT and the STOP signs went up; 3 originally then a fourth one was added later.

Quote from: Zeffy on September 19, 2014, 10:17:56 AM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 19, 2014, 09:03:41 AM
Here's another illogical set of STOP signs placed at a T-intersection where the minor road is a one-way street heading away from the main road traffic. 

Academy Ave. & Hutchinson Ter. in Ridley Twp., PA  Stupid!  Stupid!  Stupid!  :banghead:

In this case, there shouldn't even be a set of stop signs.
You're preaching to the choir here; most if not all of us here would agree with you on that.  See above regarding towns in SEPA erecting STOP signs at will.

Quote from: vdeane on September 19, 2014, 03:22:26 PM
In the case of the one I posted, the stop sign is on the most traveled approach, the one that goes to/from the main road.
Not that much different than one of the fore-mentioned STOP signs along Franklin Ave.

Franklin Ave. & Greenhouse Lane (a dead-end residential street)
GPS does NOT equal GOD

wisvishr0

While the unwarranted stop signs you guys have mentioned would bother me, even worse is the lack of "ALL-WAY" signage in most of those examples (or, in the case of the "Except Right Turns" set up, indication that other traffic has to give way to people turning right).

How do I know who has to or doesn't yield?

vdeane

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 19, 2014, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 19, 2014, 03:22:26 PM
In the case of the one I posted, the stop sign is on the most traveled approach, the one that goes to/from the main road.
Not that much different than one of the fore-mentioned STOP signs along Franklin Ave.

Franklin Ave. & Greenhouse Lane (a dead-end residential street)
But that one is an all-way stop.  Mine is an uncontrolled intersection with a random stop sign on one approach.

Let's analyze my intersection:  Hollyvale is the street that continues straight.  Cohasset ends at Hollyvale at a T junction.  Both Cohasset and Hollyvale end at Lynwood further down.  Hollyvale starts at Winton Rd (a major arterial) and ends at Lynwood with a bend between Winton and Cohasset.  Lynwood starts at Westfall Rd (a minor arterial) and ends at a dead end just past Hollyvale.  Cohasset runs between Hollyvale and Lynwood and is unremarkable except for a very sharp curve in the middle.  The intersection of Hollyvale and Cohasset is mostly uncontrolled with the only stop sign being on Hollyvale eastbound at Cohasset.  Traffic on that approach is roughly evenly split between turning right onto Cohasset or continuing on Hollyvale towards Lynwood.  In the approaches from the other two intersections, more traffic comes from Cohasset than Hollyvale (due to non-locals not knowing about the curve, which is not visible from Lynwood, and simply turning left onto the first street they see from Lynwood when they try to evade the traffic light at the Winton/Westfall intersection), and all of it turns left onto Hollyvale.  Westbound traffic on Hollyvale at this location goes straight with left turns onto Cohasset being very rare.

Basically, I have no idea what that stop sign could possibly be there for if not speed control.  The logical thing to do would be to have either an all-way stop or put the sign on one of the other approaches.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Ian

UMaine graduate, former PennDOT employee, new SoCal resident.
Youtube l Flickr

Brian556

On the walking/bike trail in Highland Village, Texas, there is a 90-degree turn that has stop signs for no reason. It should have sharp turn ahead and arrow signs instead.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.086317,-97.048367&spn=0.000002,0.001549&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=33.086317,-97.048367&panoid=-cNg19d8uhXVmLy5h21gRQ&cbp=12,71.8,,2,0

PHLBOS

Quote from: vdeane on September 20, 2014, 12:12:27 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 19, 2014, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 19, 2014, 03:22:26 PM
In the case of the one I posted, the stop sign is on the most traveled approach, the one that goes to/from the main road.
Not that much different than one of the fore-mentioned STOP signs along Franklin Ave.

Franklin Ave. & Greenhouse Lane (a dead-end residential street)
But that one is an all-way stop.  Mine is an uncontrolled intersection with a random stop sign on one approach.
Val, for the record, there are several examples along local (non-PennDOT) roads in SEPA that would place STOP signs along the main roads but not for the minor roads that intersects w/such.  Check out Providence Road in Springfield Twp., Delaware County just west of the Secane train station for one or two examples.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Roadrunner75

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 22, 2014, 09:36:09 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 20, 2014, 12:12:27 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 19, 2014, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 19, 2014, 03:22:26 PM
In the case of the one I posted, the stop sign is on the most traveled approach, the one that goes to/from the main road.
Not that much different than one of the fore-mentioned STOP signs along Franklin Ave.

Franklin Ave. & Greenhouse Lane (a dead-end residential street)
But that one is an all-way stop.  Mine is an uncontrolled intersection with a random stop sign on one approach.
Val, for the record, there are several examples along local (non-PennDOT) roads in SEPA that would place STOP signs along the main roads but not for the minor roads that intersects w/such.  Check out Providence Road in Springfield Twp., Delaware County just west of the Secane train station for one or two examples.
I will attest to that. Pennsylvania drives me crazy with their seemingly random stop signs on main roads, both two way (with no stop on the minor roads) and all-way.



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