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MSA's with no four-lane connection to an interstate

Started by webny99, July 20, 2018, 01:48:18 PM

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Max Rockatansky

#25
Quote from: ftballfan on July 21, 2018, 02:04:23 PM
Traverse City, MI (surprisingly not an MSA, but a micropolitan area despite its population of nearly 150,000 in the four counties that the area contains) has no four-lane connection to an interstate and also not enough demand for one unless population were to suddenly double.

Marquette is way off the grid for a 4-lane Interstate connection in the UP.  I want to say the City was up to 22k the last I looked. 

For California Coalinga comes to mind at 17k.  Porterville is also on the list at 59k. 

Some others that come to mind over 10k also would be; Mendota, Hollister, Kerman, Coarsegold, and Oakhurst. 


sparker

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 21, 2018, 07:57:10 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on July 21, 2018, 02:04:23 PM
Traverse City, MI (surprisingly not an MSA, but a micropolitan area despite its population of nearly 150,000 in the four counties that the area contains) has no four-lane connection to an interstate and also not enough demand for one unless population were to suddenly double.

Marquette is way off the grid for a 4-lane Interstate connection in the UP.  I want to say the City was up to 22k the last I looked. 

For California Coalinga comes to mind at 17k.  Porterville is also on the list at 59k. 

Some others that come to mind over 10k also would be; Mendota, Hollister, Kerman, Coarsegold, and Oakhurst. 

Two in CA that I can think of off the top of my head are Eureka and Susanville; the former due to numerous 2-lane gaps to the south along US 101 and almost all 2-lane facility on CA 299.  Susanville, while technically qualifying, population-wise as a MSA, only makes it because about 35% of its population are inmates incarcerated in the two prisons within the town limits.  Still, it requires trips down the 2-lane US 395 and CA 36 to reach I-80 and I-5, respectively.   

kkt

10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.

Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people.  WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.

jakeroot

Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people.  WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.

Where's that at? 16 from Gorst to the 5 is all freeway.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.

Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people.  WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.

Where is WA 16 two-lanes?  I don't recall any parts of it that weren't at least four. 

Buck87

Not many in Ohio, and the ones I can think of are in the 10k-20k range: Tiffin, Fostoria and Mount Vernon

sharkyfour

Quote from: ipeters61 on July 20, 2018, 09:18:27 PM
None I can think of in Delaware that have no access to some four lane highway.  DE-1, I-95, US-13, and US-113 leave the state pretty well covered.

In Connecticut, I'm thinking of Willimantic/Windham (Willimantic has population 17,000 and Windham, the town where it is located, has population 25,000), which has no four lane highway access to an interstate (barring some sections of US-6 to the east of town, and I'm not counting the Willimantic Bypass, built originally as part of the planned I-84 to Providence since that is a very local section of 4-lane highway).  I went to Eastern Connecticut State University, located in the town, so I am reasonably familiar with the area.  Continuing off that, UConn is located in Storrs/Mansfield (population 26,000), which can only access an interstate via US-44, CT-195, or going through Willimantic (see below).

You can get to an interstate from Willimantic going any of these routes:

  • US-6 West to I-384 West to Manchester/Hartford/Springfield
  • CT-32 North to CT-31 North to I-84 West (my preferred way to Manchester)
  • CT-32 North to I-84 East to Boston
  • CT-32 South to CT-2 East to I-395 South to New London/New Haven
  • CT-66 West to I-691 West to New Haven/Waterbury
  • US-6 East to I-395 North to Worcester
  • US-6 East to I-295 to Providence

As far as I can remember, the shortest route to an interstate is the first one, at 11-ish miles of 2 lane highway.

Came to this thread to say this.  Living in Windham, I can say with  certainty that the lack of highway access to the town has significantly hindered the economic growth of the area.

ErmineNotyours

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2018, 08:24:39 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.

Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people.  WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.

Where is WA 16 two-lanes?  I don't recall any parts of it that weren't at least four.

He may be thinking of this, where 3 and 304 merge going out of town, and each of them are one lane here.

ipeters61

Quote from: sharkyfour on July 22, 2018, 07:11:13 PM
Quote from: ipeters61 on July 20, 2018, 09:18:27 PM
None I can think of in Delaware that have no access to some four lane highway.  DE-1, I-95, US-13, and US-113 leave the state pretty well covered.

In Connecticut, I'm thinking of Willimantic/Windham (Willimantic has population 17,000 and Windham, the town where it is located, has population 25,000), which has no four lane highway access to an interstate (barring some sections of US-6 to the east of town, and I'm not counting the Willimantic Bypass, built originally as part of the planned I-84 to Providence since that is a very local section of 4-lane highway).  I went to Eastern Connecticut State University, located in the town, so I am reasonably familiar with the area.  Continuing off that, UConn is located in Storrs/Mansfield (population 26,000), which can only access an interstate via US-44, CT-195, or going through Willimantic (see below).

You can get to an interstate from Willimantic going any of these routes:

  • US-6 West to I-384 West to Manchester/Hartford/Springfield
  • CT-32 North to CT-31 North to I-84 West (my preferred way to Manchester)
  • CT-32 North to I-84 East to Boston
  • CT-32 South to CT-2 East to I-395 South to New London/New Haven
  • CT-66 West to I-691 West to New Haven/Waterbury
  • US-6 East to I-395 North to Worcester
  • US-6 East to I-295 to Providence

As far as I can remember, the shortest route to an interstate is the first one, at 11-ish miles of 2 lane highway.

Came to this thread to say this.  Living in Windham, I can say with  certainty that the lack of highway access to the town has significantly hindered the economic growth of the area.
I agree, especially since there are so many different ways to get between Hartford and Providence, along with the general inconvenience of living in the area.  On the one hand, it is refreshing to see the sprawl more or less stop east of Manchester/Vernon, but on the other, it's really sad that Willimantic is so distressed.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed on my posts on the AARoads Forum are my own and do not represent official positions of my employer.
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NE2

Quote from: ErmineNotyours on July 22, 2018, 10:18:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2018, 08:24:39 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.

Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people.  WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.

Where is WA 16 two-lanes?  I don't recall any parts of it that weren't at least four.

He may be thinking of this, where 3 and 304 merge going out of town, and each of them are one lane here.

What horseshit. You can barely get from any surface road to an Interstate without a single-lane ramp.
pre-1945 Florida route log

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jakeroot

Quote from: NE2 on July 22, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on July 22, 2018, 10:18:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2018, 08:24:39 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.

Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people.  WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.

Where is WA 16 two-lanes?  I don't recall any parts of it that weren't at least four.

He may be thinking of this, where 3 and 304 merge going out of town, and each of them are one lane here.

What horseshit. You can barely get from any surface road to an Interstate without a single-lane ramp.

Doesn't matter anyway. That freeway has been widened to two through lanes a few months ago (that's the construction in Street View). Entrance from 304 is just a normal merge now. Never mind that it isn't fucking 16.

Agreed that merges shouldn't count. Ramps are hardly ever wider than two lanes; vast majority are one. The point is there's a freeway here. Shit, it's [basically] seven lanes through Gorst a mile from here.

Hurricane Rex

Quote from: jakeroot on July 23, 2018, 01:45:31 AM
Quote from: NE2 on July 22, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on July 22, 2018, 10:18:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2018, 08:24:39 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.

Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people.  WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.

Where is WA 16 two-lanes?  I don't recall any parts of it that weren't at least four.

He may be thinking of this, where 3 and 304 merge going out of town, and each of them are one lane here.

What horseshit. You can barely get from any surface road to an Interstate without a single-lane ramp.

Doesn't matter anyway. That freeway has been widened to two through lanes a few months ago (that's the construction in Street View). Entrance from 304 is just a normal merge now. Never mind that it isn't fucking 16.

Agreed that merges shouldn't count. Ramps are hardly ever wider than two lanes; vast majority are one. The point is there's a freeway here. Shit, it's [basically] seven lanes through Gorst a mile from here.

If merges don't count, would the Corvallis van Buren bridge be considered a merge or since it is a state highway does it not count? That will judge the fate of Corvallis.
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Running till I die.

jakeroot

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on July 23, 2018, 02:00:33 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 23, 2018, 01:45:31 AM
Quote from: NE2 on July 22, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on July 22, 2018, 10:18:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2018, 08:24:39 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.

Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people.  WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.

Where is WA 16 two-lanes?  I don't recall any parts of it that weren't at least four.

He may be thinking of this, where 3 and 304 merge going out of town, and each of them are one lane here.

What horseshit. You can barely get from any surface road to an Interstate without a single-lane ramp.

Doesn't matter anyway. That freeway has been widened to two through lanes a few months ago (that's the construction in Street View). Entrance from 304 is just a normal merge now. Never mind that it isn't fucking 16.

Agreed that merges shouldn't count. Ramps are hardly ever wider than two lanes; vast majority are one. The point is there's a freeway here. Shit, it's [basically] seven lanes through Gorst a mile from here.

If merges don't count, would the Corvallis van Buren bridge be considered a merge or since it is a state highway does it not count? That will judge the fate of Corvallis.

Hmm, that's a tough one. I guess, since it's not part of a merge (just a narrow bridge), it would count for this thread (i.e. IMO, Corvallis does not have a four-lane connection to an interstate).

jp the roadgeek

Bristol, CT (population 60,477) does not have such a four lane connection.  The expressway portion of CT 72, once proposed to pass through Bristol, stops before the city line and downgrades to a boulevard.  The only other ways to access are CT 229 from Southington and points south and west on I-84, US 6 from the Hartford area and from Litchfield County, and CT 69 from the Waterbury area,
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)

ipeters61

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on July 23, 2018, 04:03:02 AM
Bristol, CT (population 60,477) does not have such a four lane connection.  The expressway portion of CT 72, once proposed to pass through Bristol, stops before the city line and downgrades to a boulevard.  The only other ways to access are CT 229 from Southington and points south and west on I-84, US 6 from the Hartford area and from Litchfield County, and CT 69 from the Waterbury area,
But the boulevard is still 4 lanes, correct?  I think we're considering areas that lack any sort of four lane connection (not to use my own example, but like Willimantic, where all roads have large two lane segments on their way to an expressway).
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed on my posts on the AARoads Forum are my own and do not represent official positions of my employer.
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hotdogPi

Quote from: ipeters61 on July 23, 2018, 08:49:07 AM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on July 23, 2018, 04:03:02 AM
Bristol, CT (population 60,477) does not have such a four lane connection.  The expressway portion of CT 72, once proposed to pass through Bristol, stops before the city line and downgrades to a boulevard.  The only other ways to access are CT 229 from Southington and points south and west on I-84, US 6 from the Hartford area and from Litchfield County, and CT 69 from the Waterbury area,
But the boulevard is still 4 lanes, correct?  I think we're considering areas that lack any sort of four lane connection (not to use my own example, but like Willimantic, where all roads have large two lane segments on their way to an expressway).

This thread is about metro areas, not suburbs lying between freeways or other 4-lane roads. I could see a case for cities or towns that are in the middle of nowhere and aren't part of a MSA, but not suburbs.




Keene, NH qualifies.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

webny99

A ramp is a lot different than a two-lane road, especially many miles of busy two-lane road with limited passing opportunities.
Geneseo, NY just barely qualifies if we're using 10,000, having a population of 10,483 as of 2016. I've often wished US 20A was four lanes between Geneseo and I-390. Not strictly necessary, but it is several miles and nearly impossible to pass, due to oncoming traffic and grade changes.

There have been some comments that a city of 10,000 shouldn't expect a four-lane connection to an interstate. What should the minimum size be for a city to deserve a four-lane connection? Surely 20,000, if not 15,000.

Quote from: 1 on July 23, 2018, 08:51:38 AM
This thread is about metro areas, not suburbs lying between freeways or other 4-lane roads. I could see a case for cities or towns that are in the middle of nowhere and aren't part of a MSA, but not suburbs.

Basically, yes. Suburbs can't really count.
We're talking about having to pass through rural areas to get from the city to an interstate, and whether the corridor through said rural areas should be four-laned.

ipeters61

Quote from: webny99 on July 23, 2018, 09:36:29 AM
Quote from: 1 on July 23, 2018, 08:51:38 AM
This thread is about metro areas, not suburbs lying between freeways or other 4-lane roads. I could see a case for cities or towns that are in the middle of nowhere and aren't part of a MSA, but not suburbs.

Basically, yes. Suburbs can't really count.
We're talking about having to pass through rural areas to get from the city to an interstate, and whether the corridor through said rural areas should be four-laned.
Another case that could be brought up, though it may not be appropriate for this thread, is the connection to points west of Dover, DE (population around 35k), like DC and Baltimore.  You can either go up DE-1 to I-95 (the indirect route - 144 miles, 2.5 hours according to Google) or you could try taking the more direct route (DE-8/MD-454 West to MD-302 West, 28 miles, to eventually hit US-301, a four lane highway - 92 miles, 2 hours according to Google).  However, in my experience, traffic moves very well through this area so an upgrade is not necessarily warranted.  I have heard of a handful of people who actually do make the commute from DC to Dover.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed on my posts on the AARoads Forum are my own and do not represent official positions of my employer.
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Life in Paradise

Indiana-I'd like to nominate Jasper, Connersville, and Madison.  I think all of the others have a four lane connector to some sort of interstate.

Max Rockatansky


vdeane

Quote from: webny99 on July 23, 2018, 09:36:29 AM
A ramp is a lot different than a two-lane road, especially many miles of busy two-lane road with limited passing opportunities.
Geneseo, NY just barely qualifies if we're using 10,000, having a population of 10,483 as of 2016. I've often wished US 20A was four lanes between Geneseo and I-390. Not strictly necessary, but it is several miles and nearly impossible to pass, due to oncoming traffic and grade changes.

There have been some comments that a city of 10,000 shouldn't expect a four-lane connection to an interstate. What should the minimum size be for a city to deserve a four-lane connection? Surely 20,000, if not 15,000.

Quote from: 1 on July 23, 2018, 08:51:38 AM
This thread is about metro areas, not suburbs lying between freeways or other 4-lane roads. I could see a case for cities or towns that are in the middle of nowhere and aren't part of a MSA, but not suburbs.

Basically, yes. Suburbs can't really count.
We're talking about having to pass through rural areas to get from the city to an interstate, and whether the corridor through said rural areas should be four-laned.
Since we're talking about metro areas rather than cities per se, maybe it would make sense to use metro area population?  I believe the threshold at which a MPO is mandatory is 50k, so Ithaca (which has a MPO) would still count with that criteria.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

TheCatalyst31

I think Monroe is the only one in Wisconsin. (It's technically part of the Madison MSA, but you have to drive through about 30 miles of farmland to get there from Madison.) It's barely 10k and isn't growing, though, so it doesn't really need the four-lane connection.

bzakharin

Manchester Township, NJ (population 43395) is a marginal case. It is itself pretty rural. It has a few suburban-feeling areas but none that connect it to a 4-lane road.
Bridgeton Township, NJ (population 25692) has no 4-lane roads and has rural areas between itself and Milville and Vineland, the closest cities
Vernon Township, NJ (population 24847) is about as far as you can get from NYC or Philly and still be in NJ, and not "down the shore". No 4-lane roads
Hopatcong Township, NJ (population 14459) narrowly avoids I-80 and NJ 15 freeways, and the only 4-lane road leaving town (Lakeside Blvd) narrows to 2 lanes before getting anywhere interesting
Wantage Township, NJ (population 10934) is even more remote than Vernon above and has no 4-lane roads

webny99

Quote from: vdeane on July 23, 2018, 01:00:00 PM
Since we're talking about metro areas rather than cities per se, maybe it would make sense to use metro area population?  I believe the threshold at which a MPO is mandatory is 50k, so Ithaca (which has a MPO) would still count with that criteria.

I'm in favor of using metro area population - say 50K or higher. Seems like that would remove some of the ambiguity, provided all outbound roads are still just two lanes.

SteveG1988

Whidbey Island WA: Population 80,022 residents

Connection to the nearest interstate: Two lane deception pass bridge.
All other connections via ferry.
Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,



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