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Started by Grzrd, September 23, 2010, 09:45:04 PM

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Brandon

Quote from: Revive 755 on August 02, 2013, 10:30:53 PM
8) I'm seeing mostly depressed freeways in Detroit when I survey the aerial imagery.

Having driven them often, I can guarantee that they are depressed, not elevated with few exceptions (Fisher Freeway over the River Rouge and Zug Island for example).  There are also many pedestrian connections bridging the freeways as well.  Detroit's problems do not stem from the freeway system, contrary to Norquist's very uninformed opinion.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg


froggie

An interesting idea, but there are some notable problem areas that would bring the cost closer to ALDOT's estimate than the Rethink 20/59 group's estimate:

- There are a lot of businesses, plus some homes, that have driveways directly onto Finley Blvd, and a few buildings are very close to the street.  These homes/businesses would have to all be bought out for any sort of freeway upgrade.  This is even more true if the idea is to extend it along Finley west of I-65.

- The hazmat cleanup issue cited in the article by the ALDOT representative is very real and very costly, should the route pass through a Superfund site.

- In addition to completely redoing the I-65/Finley interchange, Malfunction Junction would still need a re-do, but could be reduced in scope.

- Connecting it back to I-20/59 at Arkadelphia requires either going through a quarry or through more homes and a few businesses.

- Connecting it back via I-65 is probably doable, but would require significant widening of I-65 between Finley and Malfunction Junction that would require additional right-of-way around the 16th St N interchange.

lordsutch

Quote from: froggie on October 01, 2013, 01:07:22 AM
An interesting idea, but there are some notable problem areas that would bring the cost closer to ALDOT's estimate than the Rethink 20/59 group's estimate:

- There are a lot of businesses, plus some homes, that have driveways directly onto Finley Blvd, and a few buildings are very close to the street.  These homes/businesses would have to all be bought out for any sort of freeway upgrade.  This is even more true if the idea is to extend it along Finley west of I-65.

- The hazmat cleanup issue cited in the article by the ALDOT representative is very real and very costly, should the route pass through a Superfund site.

- In addition to completely redoing the I-65/Finley interchange, Malfunction Junction would still need a re-do, but could be reduced in scope.

- Connecting it back to I-20/59 at Arkadelphia requires either going through a quarry or through more homes and a few businesses.

- Connecting it back via I-65 is probably doable, but would require significant widening of I-65 between Finley and Malfunction Junction that would require additional right-of-way around the 16th St N interchange.

The other issue, more from a traffic than cost perspective, I can see is that having the I-22 and I-20/59 routes so close together could introduce some additional weaving issues for traffic, particularly if you're using a widened I-65 as a single roadway; maybe separating the two flows (much as I-85 and I-285 remain separate over their ATL overlap) would work better since you'd not have any intermediate interchanges.

And it reeks of environmental dumping, particularly if the ex-20/59 corridor through downtown becomes gentrified as a result, which presumably is the goal of the exercise.

froggie

QuoteAnd it reeks of environmental dumping, particularly if the ex-20/59 corridor through downtown becomes gentrified as a result, which presumably is the goal of the exercise.

To be fair, it would remove a significant barrier between the two parts of downtown that the 20/59 viaduct currently induces.

NE2

Quote from: froggie on October 01, 2013, 01:07:22 AM
- There are a lot of businesses, plus some homes, that have driveways directly onto Finley Blvd, and a few buildings are very close to the street.  These homes/businesses would have to all be bought out for any sort of freeway upgrade.  This is even more true if the idea is to extend it along Finley west of I-65.
It's more likely that it would be elevated over the railroad just south of Finley.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

froggie

A lot of that railroad is actually rail yard, especially west of I-65.  Basically takes that option off the table.

codyg1985

Quote from: froggie on October 01, 2013, 01:30:08 PM
A lot of that railroad is actually rail yard, especially west of I-65.  Basically takes that option off the table.

Plus an intermodal center for BNSF.
Cody Goodman
Huntsville, AL, United States

NE2

Quote from: froggie on October 01, 2013, 01:30:08 PM
A lot of that railroad is actually rail yard, especially west of I-65.  Basically takes that option off the table.
Shouldn't keep them from building it there; just constrains where supports can go. There may not even be constraints if they put it over the truck parking at the north end of the yard, as there are many examples of parking under a freeway.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

froggie

You're still dealing with a few homes/buildings at the east end of the yard.  Plus elevated is expensive and blighty, as you well know, and BNSF may well have valid reasons for it to NOT go over their truck parking.  Might as well go with a surface route along Finley.  I've already sketched one out.

froggie

In the meantime, I'm in the process of sketching out the two scenarios, one going to I-65, the other following Finley down to Arkadelphia Rd.  I'll post maps once they're completed and I'm in port.

I've got a rough outline for the 20/59 mainline, paralleling Arkadelphia Rd immediately to the west between existing 20/59 and Finely, following along the north side of Finley from Arkadelphia to just west of I-65, cutting across I-65 and just south of 24th Ave N, generally following Village Creek for a bit (following unused/wooded land as much as possible), then following what looks to be a partially abandoned Norfolk Southern line (it appears cut off at I-20/59 and Vanderbilt Rd) back to existing 20/59.  For the I-65 scenario, new "outer roadways" would be built on the outside of the I-65 mainline between Malfunction Junction and the railroad underpass at 21st Ave N.

In both scenarios, Malfunction Junction would be reconfigured as needed, and the 20/59 interchange with the Stephens Expwy (US 31/280) would be reconfigured to allow 280 to continue northeast along existing 20/59 to end at the "new" 20/59.

The existing 20/59 viaduct downtown gets rebuilt into a surface "9th Ave N Boulevard" with direct connections to the freeways on each end.  11th Ave N also gets rebuilt with partial freeway connections on each end.  This opens up several blocks of unutilized/used-for-freeway-ramps land on the east side of downtown for development.

In the "full" scenario, I redesignate existing 20/59 between Arkadelphia Rd and 9th Ave N/15th St N as "I-320".  This also serves as the connections between 20/59 West and 65 South.

One thing I've noticed so far regarding mileages.  Under the "full" scenario, the new 20/59 is almost no different in distance as the existing route through downtown (both about 4.5 miles).  Under the "I-65" scenario, the "new" 20/59 is about a half-mile longer (~3.6mi vs ~3.1mi).

codyg1985

In either scenario, would you create outer roadways for I-22 traffic heading to and from I-20 east? What are your ideas for interchanges along the new route?

Can't wait to see the maps!
Cody Goodman
Huntsville, AL, United States

froggie

In short, no outer roadways north of Finley.  ALDOT is already widening I-65 north of 33rd to string out auxiliary lanes for the I-22 interchange.  It wouldn't be much of a stretch to extend them down to Finley.  Plus, outer roadways there would further complicate the ramps from 65 proper to 20/59.

Interchanges would be minimal.  From the west, a directional split to existing 20/59, a half-interchange to/from the east at today's Arkadelphia/Finley intersection (access to/from the west via the existing 20/59/Arkadelphia interchange), a 3/4 interchange at 65 (access between 20/59 West and 65 South being handled by existing 20/59), perhaps a half-diamond to/from the east at 31/Carroway, and an interchange back at existing 20/59 just west of the Coosa St underpass.  Debating if I can fit in a couple local ramps near 65 to "complete" a full local access interchange in that area (the half-diamond at 31 comprising part of that local access).

Malfunction Junction gets redone...still a full interchange but with no more mainline bridging over the other direction, so no more left-side entrances/exits.  Select movements get access ramps to/from 11th Ave N.  The I-65 ramps at 6th Ave N get moved to 8th Ave N and bridged under the new Malfunction Junction ramps.  The half-diamond on I-65 at 16th remains, but due to the "new" 20/59, the existing interchange at Finley becomes a half-diamond at 25th.  Because of weaving issues, the ramps and under-the-freeway access at 32nd have to be removed, with a simple diamond interchange remaining at 33rd.

On the Stephens, the loop to 2nd Ave N gets removed, replaced by a more-direct ramp to northbound Carroway at 5th Ave N, as well as a new southbound on-ramp from 5th and Carroway.  These ramps are intended to replace the existing US 31 "through movement" ramps between the Stephens and Carroway.  Northbound access from 5th Ave and southbound access to 6th Ave remain.  As part of the new "9th Ave N Boulevard", a new northbound on-ramp from a newly-reconstituted 9th Ave N/Carroway Blvd intersection is added.  Southbound access to 9th Ave N is also provided, but must bridge over Carroway Blvd due to spacing and so it comes to grade at 25th St N.  A new southbound off-ramp direct to the 11th Ave/Carroway Blvd intersection is also added.  Due to weaving issues, the ramps to/from the south at 31st St N are removed, leaving a half-diamond to/from the northeast...same issues that ALDOT capitulated on, though under my scenario it's not hard to access the industrial area and neighborhood from Carroway...several streets cross the rail tracks to do so.

------

Under the "partial" scenario, everything along and east of I-65 is the same as described above with the following exceptions:  I WOULD add outer roadways to I-65 between Malfunction Junction and the new 20/59 in this scenario.  As the "new" 20/59/65 interchange is a 3-way semi-directional with no access to/from the west, the existing diamond interchange at Finley remains (but the ramps at 32nd still get moved to 33rd).  The half-diamond at 16th would also likely be removed, though I haven't finalized that yet.

lordsutch

Quote from: froggie on October 02, 2013, 02:20:08 PM
Under the "partial" scenario, everything along and east of I-65 is the same as described above with the following exceptions:  I WOULD add outer roadways to I-65 between Malfunction Junction and the new 20/59 in this scenario.  As the "new" 20/59/65 interchange is a 3-way semi-directional with no access to/from the west, the existing diamond interchange at Finley remains (but the ramps at 32nd still get moved to 33rd).  The half-diamond at 16th would also likely be removed, though I haven't finalized that yet.

I think you can safely kill the 16th half-diamond; I can't imagine it draws a lot of traffic. Plus if you reconstruct I-65 through there to add the outer roadways for 20/59, FHWA would likely insist on a full interchange anyway.

Semidirectional is definitely the way to go at the new interchange, since otherwise I-22 E to I-20/59 E could get ugly.

How about a folded diamond at 31 to provide access in both directions? That gets you local access, plus another way to/from BJCC events for northside traffic.

That railroad line is definitely gone at Vanderbilt Road according to Street View.

froggie

QuoteI think you can safely kill the 16th half-diamond; I can't imagine it draws a lot of traffic. Plus if you reconstruct I-65 through there to add the outer roadways for 20/59, FHWA would likely insist on a full interchange anyway.

If I keep the 16th half-diamond, it would be to/from the outer 20/59 roadways, and would complete a de-facto local interchange in conjunction with the half-diamond at 31/Carroway.

QuoteHow about a folded diamond at 31 to provide access in both directions?

Too close to the ramps at 65, plus trying to minimize woodland and Village Creek impacts.

froggie

Since we're straying into fictional territory, and since we pulled into port long enough for me to upload the maps, I've created a separate fictional thread with the maps I created.

Brandon

Quote from: froggie on October 08, 2013, 02:33:35 PM
Since we're straying into fictional territory, and since we pulled into port long enough for me to upload the maps, I've created a separate fictional thread with the maps I created.

Those are good, and worth handing over to ALDOT for them to consider.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Grzrd

#66
Quote from: Grzrd on September 30, 2013, 05:11:39 PM
this Sept. 26 article
Quote
ALDOT Director John Cooper ....
Quote from: Brandon on October 08, 2013, 03:18:43 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 08, 2013, 02:33:35 PM
Since we're straying into fictional territory, and since we pulled into port long enough for me to upload the maps, I've created a separate fictional thread with the maps I created.
Those are good, and worth handing over to ALDOT for them to consider.

The rhetoric is heating up in Birmingham, with the I-20/59 viaduct being compared to the Berlin Wall:

Quote
It's not just an interstate, but a great divide.  That's what Birmingham city councilman Johnathan Austin says about the I-20/59 bridges downtown.  It's also why he wants them relocated.
"It would tear down the Birmingham Berlin Wall that has existed between downtown and the neighborhoods for the last fifty years," said Austin.
The councilor believes replacing the bridges is not just a matter of convenience and safety, but that there is a larger issue at stake: breaking down cultural lines.
"You stay downtown and it looks all nice and pretty, but as soon as you go on the other side of the bridge it starts looking bad.  It's just like crossing the train tracks. It's a shame!  It's a travesty!" ....
he wants ALDOT to reroute the interstate through his district, and provide downtown access somewhere along the Finley Boulevard corridor.

In addition to handing them over to ALDOT, to be fair, you might want to hand them over to Austin and Rethink I-20/59 in order to allow all of them to have an informed discussion.  :thumbsup:

Grzrd

This Oct. 15 video report about the controversy includes footage from the current I-20/59 viaduct.

Tourian

It doesnt matter. ALDOT believes it would tack on another 20 years to the project to move it and they do not believe the current bridges will last that long. Buying up and moving all those homes and businesses along Finley is the time waster as well as disturbing sealed hazardous waste areas near the old Ensley Works.

I wish Austin hadnt been so dramatic in his statements but the bridges do cut off norwood from downtown and I believe it and the civic center and uptown need that neighborhood to thrive in order for Birmingham to reach its potential but I just dont see it in the cards this time around.

codyg1985

Here are some of the problems that are faced with the current I-20/59 viaduct through downtown. This is a common occurrence.
Cody Goodman
Huntsville, AL, United States

msunat97

So how is the traffic in B'ham?  I'm headed thru Wednesday on 65 to Montgomery.

Charles2

Quote from: msunat97 on November 25, 2013, 02:33:26 PM
So how is the traffic in B'ham?  I'm headed thru Wednesday on 65 to Montgomery.

You shouldn't have major issues.  If you're travelling south on I-65 from the north, traffic flows pretty smoothly through the construction at I-22/I-65. 

msunat97

Thanks Charles.  I'm more concerned about the 65 area South of town.  Seems like it is always backed up in that area.

Grzrd

Quote from: BamaZeus on September 30, 2013, 12:58:40 PM
http://weldbham.com/blog/2013/09/27/more-changes-on-the-way-for-aldots-2059-plan/
This says there's an alternate plan out there to maybe move 20/59 along the Finley Boulevard corridor?

Near the end of this Nov. 21 TV video report, the reporter notes that ALDOT is no longer seeking the "blessing" of either the mayor or the city council for its current plan to replace the bridges.

Charles2

Quote from: msunat97 on November 26, 2013, 11:03:06 AM
Thanks Charles.  I'm more concerned about the 65 area South of town.  Seems like it is always backed up in that area.

In that case, you may run into some delays in Shelby County where I-65 narrows from three southbound lanes to two around Exit 242 (CR 52).  Doesn't matter the time of day, it becomes a bottleneck.



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