What are your thoughts on School Zones?

[CrossCountryRoads]

I tend to find most School Zone speed limits to be VERY under posted.  One local school near me on a state route with a 55 mph requires a drop to 15 mph as you go through the school zone, while both the school buildings are at least 50 yards off the right of way.  What usually ends up happening is a line of vehicles forms at 15-20 mph, crawling through the school zone with each vehicle right on the bumper of the person in front of them.  This makes it harder for buses to get out, as well as regular old cars to get out from the school property.  It causes more traffic problems than it solves.

Are there any school zones like this where you live?  And what are your thoughts on them in general?

[agentsteel53]

Are there any school zones like this where you live?  And what are your thoughts on them in general?

one should not build schools on arterials designed to serve through traffic.  that's what residential back roads are for.  the out-of-hours speed limit should be no higher than 35, and the in-hours can be as low as is deemed safe.  15 sometimes does make sense if there is odd geography leading to the crossings.

I believe it is Texas that has a school zone somewhere on a 70mph four-lane undivided road.  what kind of idiot decided to put the school there?

[NE2]

We've already had this discussion. The point of a school zone is to make it possible for cars to stop for pedestrians in heavy traffic.

[formulanone]

We've already had this discussion. The point of a school zone is to make it possible for cars to stop for pedestrians in heavy traffic.

Except when there's no pedestrians around, because the school is 3-5 blocks away form the main road. At least it gives you a warning that there will be a sudden increase in nearby cell-phone-laden SUVs/minivans and motorcycle police officers.

Sometimes the school zone is way too long for what amounts to a single crossing guard for walking children that live nearby. But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.

[kphoger]

What usually ends up happening is a line of vehicles forms at 15-20 mph, crawling through the school zone with each vehicle right on the bumper of the person in front of them.

This is not what irks me the most.  What irks me the most is that traffic often goes about 10 mph instead, even when there is nobody around.  They'll go five over the rest of the way, but drop to five under for the school zone.  Rrrgghh...

[NE2]

But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.

Yep. Put a foot in the crosswalk and watch car after car pass by without slowing down.

[CrossCountryRoads]

Yes, the people who drive 10 over normally then 5 under in the school zone irk me too.

But the thing is, in my example, the schools are well off the right of way and there is nothing across the road from them except empty fields and woods.  No one ever has any reason to cross there to begin with.  So why the sudden 55 mph to 15 mph?  I understand that in city areas pedestrians might be more likely to cross a street in a school zone, but my example is of a school in a very rural area.  You can still stop your car rather quickly at 35 mph, so why isn't that slow enough for this rural school zone?

I think that if they have school zone speed limits, they might as well have them for all places people gather such as shopping areas, parks, churches, etc.  Why are they limited to schools, when kids could also be at these other places?

[roadman65]

What usually ends up happening is a line of vehicles forms at 15-20 mph, crawling through the school zone with each vehicle right on the bumper of the person in front of them.

This is not what irks me the most.  What irks me the most is that traffic often goes about 10 mph instead, even when there is nobody around.  They'll go five over the rest of the way, but drop to five under for the school zone.  Rrrgghh...

That is the same on I-4.  When the speed limit is 50 or 55 in Orlando, everyone mostly does 70 to 75.  Where the speed limit is 60 or 65 people slow down to 45 or 50.  People do not like to do what they are told.

What causes people to want to not respect all speed zones is when lower speed limits in construction areas prevail months before and months after the project.  Then you see no workers around at times and you have a 55 mph limit in a very rural area during the project with no schedule for any work to be done in the area for that particular day.  The same with the length of school zones where it exceeds 1/10 mile where the zone extends further than it has to.

On Central Florida Parkway in Orlando we had a school zone 20 that was eliminated with Orange County installing a traffic signal at Galvin Drive.  Now several years later, two more school zones have been added near Galvin Drive on Central Florida Parkway with one a very long distance and both areas are not in the imdiate area of any school, but just to help the crossing guards at two crosswalks that could easily be consolidated into one.  One zone is less than 200 feet, but the longer one is the two spaced out crosswalks.  Basically the Galvin Drive signal in the long run accomplished nothing. 

[Duke87]

New York City generally doesn't post reduced speed limits for school zones or even necessarily provide any warning whatsoever that there is a school around. The kids somehow manage to survive. And most of them walk to school and have to cross the street!

I don't mind "school zone" as a warning sign but reducing the regulatory speed limit is silly. Kids do not have speed limits reduced for them when they cross the street anywhere else, why is in front of the school special?

All that said, elementary schools having crossing guards is something I support if the intersection is not signalized. (if it's signalized, the kids can wait for the light, and having the guard go against the light just ties up traffic)

[kphoger]

Near my house, there is a stretch a few blocks long that has schools lining one side of it.  There is a school zone, but only in front of one of the schools; the other(s) has no reduction.  Ironically, I see more people crossing the street where there is no school zone–and they're also more likely to just walk in front of you there as well.

[theline]

But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.

Ah, that takes me back to Drivers Ed in high school. I took my practice drivers test, and thought I had aced it. My instructor told me that I would have flunked because I drove through the entire Ball State University campus at 35 MPH, while the the whole thing was considered a school zone with a limit of 25.

My defense was that college students should know better than to run out in front of cars. The instructor wasn't buying it. Three years later I was a student there and learned that college students are worse than grade schoolers. Drivers have to be prepared to stop at any time.

[formulanone]

But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.

Yep. Put a foot in the crosswalk and watch car after car pass by without slowing down.

And when was the last time you saw teenagers use a crosswalk properly. They can't or don't on many occasions where I live. And yes, I see many drivers fail to yield to pedestrians using a crosswalk, although in half the cases, they don't use the crosswalk signals, either.

Unless it's a rural area with a 65 mph speed limit in town, there's enough of a gap and plenty of time to use judgement to walk across two lanes, take a moment to check again, and walk across two more. Being a pedestrian doesn't come with the free license to be a dumb-ass.

[agentsteel53]

the the whole thing was considered a school zone with a limit of 25.

was it signed?  if not, you can't be expected to know.

[Brandon]

But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.

Yep. Put a foot in the crosswalk and watch car after car pass by without slowing down.

It's called waiting for the break in traffic.  If traffic is that heavy, then a crossing guard, four-way stop, or signal should be used.

[theline]

the the whole thing was considered a school zone with a limit of 25.

was it signed?  if not, you can't be expected to know.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was signed. I was probably eyeing a coed, since I was 15 at the time. 

[kphoger]

the the whole thing was considered a school zone with a limit of 25.

was it signed?  if not, you can't be expected to know.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was signed. I was probably eyeing a coed, since I was 15 at the time. 

I was about to say, "They're called girls, by the way", but then I looked it up and found out the term coed has referred to female students since the late 19th Century. :palmslap"

But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.

Yep. Put a foot in the crosswalk and watch car after car pass by without slowing down.

It's called waiting for the break in traffic.  If traffic is that heavy, then a crossing guard, four-way stop, or signal should be used.

It's called yielding to pedestrians.  What are crosswalks even for, if not to allow pedestrians a place to cross the street without fear of being run over?  If I'm going to wait for a gap in traffic large enough to not make anybody slow down, then why shouldn't I just cross wherever I feel like it, crosswalk or no crosswalk?  The whole point of a crosswalk is to provide a safe place to walk across the street without having to find a crossing guard, four-way stop, signal, bridge, tunnel, etc.

[vdeane]

If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly.  If they don't want to, that's there choice, but we shouldn't try to shield people from the problems their choices cause.

My defense was that college students should know better than to run out in front of cars. The instructor wasn't buying it. Three years later I was a student there and learned that college students are worse than grade schoolers. Drivers have to be prepared to stop at any time.

As a current college student, I can tell you that half the problems there are caused by poor placement of paths and crosswalks on the part of the university.  At Clarkson, half the paths are in places where nobody in their right mind would ever use them.  And many high-traffic routes don't have a path and are marked only by dead grass.  Still other useful paths become impassible after heavy snow because that's where the plows dump everything.  The university then has the audacity to complain that students don't use the crosswalks correctly.  Perhaps if the paths and crosswalks were laid out such that students could actually use them to get to class, people would use them properly.  There are even dorms where one has to walk in the middle of the road just to go anywhere.

But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.

Yep. Put a foot in the crosswalk and watch car after car pass by without slowing down.

I was taught that you should stop, look both ways, and cross when it's clear.  I neither that or walking to the nearest traffic light is practical and a large number of people need to cross there, than a signal should be installed.

[Alps]

If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly.  If they don't want to, that's there choice

If someone is old enough to go to school, they're old enough to use "their" correctly. Look what I did there...

[kphoger]

If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly.  If they don't want to, that's there choice

If someone is old enough to go to school, they're old enough to use "their" correctly. Look what I did there...

If someone is old enough to drive a car, their old enough to know there suppose to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks.  If they don't want to, thats they're choice.

[PurdueBill]

But by the time these kids are in high school, they ought to know how to cross a road.

Ah, that takes me back to Drivers Ed in high school. I took my practice drivers test, and thought I had aced it. My instructor told me that I would have flunked because I drove through the entire Ball State University campus at 35 MPH, while the the whole thing was considered a school zone with a limit of 25.

My defense was that college students should know better than to run out in front of cars. The instructor wasn't buying it. Three years later I was a student there and learned that college students are worse than grade schoolers. Drivers have to be prepared to stop at any time.

I recall in the Purdue traffic/parking policies that it mentioned that the 20 mph limit on campus was because the entire campus is a school zone.  Is this an Indiana thing?  (It was not clear about the limit applying to city/state highways or just university roadways; much of State Street is posted above that despite being surrounded by campus on both sides but carrying SR 26 and being INDOT "property" I guess the University doesn't have jurisdiction over speed limit.  Campus streets, however, were all posted for 20--with regular (and old) speed limit signs, not any "school" ones.

[Brandon]

If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly.  If they don't want to, that's there choice

If someone is old enough to go to school, they're old enough to use "their" correctly. Look what I did there...

If someone is old enough to drive a car, their old enough to know there suppose to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks.  If they don't want to, thats they're choice.

It's tough to yield to a pedestrian when the pedestrian has stepped out in traffic less than 15 flipping feet from you.  The yield/stop should be for those who entered the crosswalk then the street was clear and then a car came up upon the crosswalk.  It should not be for the brain-dead who step out thinking cars will magically stop for them.

[Central Avenue]

If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly.

I'm gonna disagree. Children generally start schooling around age 5 or 6. I doubt many children that young are able to accurately judge the speed at which a vehicle is traveling or how long it would take to bring a vehicle to a stop.

Obviously kids that young should have adult supervision, but even then there's still a pretty high likelihood of a kid stepping out into the street when they shouldn't.

[allniter89]

In Niceville, FL the popo stop traffic on the city streets to allow school traffic (buses and cars) to exit school grounds. They let the lines to get off the school grounds grow to 10-15 cars then stop thru traffic and let em go. Seems to work well except when you get behind 10 school buses  . Also the buses here seem to stop at every other corner in the city, back when I rode a bus the bus stopped once in our neighborhood and we walked a half mile to a mile home uphill both ways in the snow barefoot pushing a wheel barrow full of rutabagas . BTW our school zones are 20mph and enforced vigorously, the fuzz park where they can be easily seen and still some idiots get speeding tickets  .

[jeffandnicole]

After finding out what zones are posted in other states, I'm happy to see NJ isn't too bad.  In most cases, the school zone speed limit is 15 mph below the regular limit, although around high schools the limit is generally 10 mph below the regular limit.  The school zone lower limit is generally no lower than 25 mph.

So...examples near an elementary school:

Normal speed limit: 50 mph.  School Zone: 35 mph.

Normal speed limit: 40 mph.  School Zone: 25 mph.

Normal speed limit: 30 mph.  School Zone: 25 mph.

Normal speed limit: 25 mph.  School Zone: 25 mph.

There can be variations, but this is typically what one will encounter throughout the state.

And...school zones are almost always signed "When Children Are Present".  Occasionally, one will find a lighted/flashing sign instead.

[1995hoo]

If someone is old enough to go to school, they are old enough to use crosswalks correctly.

I'm gonna disagree. Children generally start schooling around age 5 or 6. I doubt many children that young are able to accurately judge the speed at which a vehicle is traveling or how long it would take to bring a vehicle to a stop.

Obviously kids that young should have adult supervision, but even then there's still a pretty high likelihood of a kid stepping out into the street when they shouldn't.

This sort of thing is why I don't mind the reduced speed limits near elementary schools, regardless of whether there's a designated crossing or not. The really little kids just don't have a great sense for traffic safety. Have you ever noticed how a lot of school buses these days have a metal bar type thing on the front bumper that swings out when the bus driver opens the door? It's to make kids walk further away from the bus when crossing the street–if they cross too close, it's harder for the driver to see if the way is clear. The flat-front design most school buses now have is for similar reasons–the hood most school buses had when most of us were kids would obstruct the view of a little kid who might be right in front of the bus. Apparently there were multiple accidents involving little kids who would drop something while crossing the street and then just run back to grab it without checking traffic or seeing if the bus were about to move. With the way little kids' one-track minds work, that's not surprising. Elementary school zones are one area where I always slow down when those yellow lights are flashing, simply because I've seen too many little kids do dumb things like chasing a ball into the street without looking for cars.

High schools should be different because those kids should know better, but the problem with them is that a lot of them seem either not to care what the rules are or else to take a belligerent attitude of daring you to hit them. Either way, though, I understand why many localities just post the same school zone speed limit for all school zones without differentiating between elementary/junior high/high schools (I guess the current fad is not to say "junior high" and to call it "middle school," but whatever).

I was passing through a school zone yesterday afternoon, speed limit dropped from 35 to 25, and two motorcycle cops were in front of me so I DEFINITELY slowed down....pissed off the guy behind me and he peeled out to pass me and then, of course, he suddenly slammed on his brakes. Asshole didn't even look sheepish when he realized why I was going so slowly. That school zone almost always has police enforcement because the road is six lanes wide (three each way) and there's a mid-block crosswalk controlled only by a crossing guard during school hours. I almost always see multiple cars stopped for speeding, too. They use laser there–when traffic was stopped one day I was next to a cop standing on the side of the road and I rolled down my window and asked because it didn't look like a radar gun.