The 3365-mile figure cited on signs at both endpoints of US 20 seems to be significantly overstated. That number was sourced from AASHTO's 1989 route log, which a.) may not have been correct even back then, and b.) US 20 has had several realignments over the past 30+ years, each one of which affects its total mileage. I suspect both factors are in play; at any rate I calculate US 20's cross-country distance to be less than 3300 miles. And then when you subtract implied mileage though Yellowstone (which isn't officially part of US 20), the total distance comes out to be just under US 6's 3205 miles. Full article here (https://www.usends.com/blog/which-highway-is-longer-us-route-6-or-us-route-20)
Well, if MassDOT would oblige... just extend US 20 eastward along MA 28, along MA 1A (then I-90 ends at US 20, much better)... up past Salem and then along MA 127 until you get to the tip of Cape Ann. Then about 39 miles more there and US 20 ends at one cape, and US 6 on the other. 20 wins without Yellowstone! :)
.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.3491133,-71.0888252/Rockport,+MA/@42.5004959,-70.8571475,11z/data=!4m39!4m38!1m30!3m4!1m2!1d-71.0755618!2d42.3524015!3s0x89e37a0b21be24ff:0x78497248cab5ef75!3m4!1m2!1d-71.0369503!2d42.3737214!3s0x89e37044b7037813:0x3edbdd3e505bb7b3!3m4!1m2!1d-70.9614956!2d42.4536533!3s0x89e36d06b88e9781:0x953cfa5838a6bb37!3m4!1m2!1d-70.8898863!2d42.5335598!3s0x89e3146cc40980cd:0x9569fd22a27fd50e!3m4!1m2!1d-70.8239034!2d42.5600398!3s0x89e3163d36694a05:0x8ba35c7e9863cc05!3m4!1m2!1d-70.7539106!2d42.5794996!3s0x89e33ce681b21e89:0xc0e33ee7e098f181!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3238c9fb119b7:0x6c19b1bc493f43c4!2m2!1d-70.620363!2d42.6556505!3e0
Well, it turns out US 6 is again the longest US Route as officially defined since Iowa realigned it around Council Bluffs instead of through it, and thanks to that loophole of US 20 having a gap in its official definition through Yellowstone (In fact US 6 has been the longest contiguous route ever since it reached Long Beach). However I consider US 20 to be the longest US Route anyway, since I count the section through Yellowstone (and on Norris Canyon Road to be exact instead of the Southern section of Grand Loop Road, but that is a moot point given there is only a 3 km difference between the official definitions of US 6 and US 20).
If we cosigned US 6 and US 395 from Bishop heading south to where the two routes would once again diverge, with US 6 taking back SR 14, then US 6 should be the winner.
Rick
The real question is, how many people have actually driven the full length of US 6 and US 20? Most I can claim for 6 is the 95 overlap in Nevada and from I-15 to US 191 in Utah.
US 20, however, I have from Newport Oregon to Cody Wyoming.
Quote from: Bickendan on August 24, 2020, 07:40:28 PM
The real question is, how many people have actually driven the full length of US 6 and US 20? Most I can claim for 6 is the 95 overlap in Nevada and from I-15 to US 191 in Utah.
US 20, however, I have from Newport Oregon to Cody Wyoming.
I've done US 6 from Bishop East over Loveland Pass. To that point US 6 is a reasonably speedy route but I couldn't fathom how much of a slog it would be through Denver and much of the Midwest.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 24, 2020, 07:43:28 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on August 24, 2020, 07:40:28 PM
The real question is, how many people have actually driven the full length of US 6 and US 20? Most I can claim for 6 is the 95 overlap in Nevada and from I-15 to US 191 in Utah.
US 20, however, I have from Newport Oregon to Cody Wyoming.
I've done US 6 from Bishop East over Loveland Pass. To that point US 6 is a reasonably speedy route but I couldn't fathom how much of a slog it would be through Denver and much of the Midwest.
Even taking each jaunt off of I-70 through Colorado wouldn't be that much of a time sink -- it's akin to doing OR 99 off I-5 or US 30 from I-84.
But yeah, looking east of Denver, or east of Iowa on US 20... daunting.
US-6 through Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New York is a good "I'd rather not" situation if you're trying to get anywhere.
Quote from: Bickendan on August 24, 2020, 07:40:28 PM
The real question is, how many people have actually driven the full length of US 6 and US 20?
:wave: (for US 6)
http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/6/
Interesting to hear about Council Bluffs, since I'm working on the Iowa portion.
Adding up referenced DOT mileages for each state, I'm getting roughly 3220 miles (can't find an official mileage for Wyoming). That makes it longer than US 6.
Quoteusing a method that I believe to be quite accurate (and in some cases, more accurate than the "official" distances posted by state departments of transportation)
And what method would that be?
Quote from: Bickendan on August 24, 2020, 07:48:00 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 24, 2020, 07:43:28 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on August 24, 2020, 07:40:28 PM
The real question is, how many people have actually driven the full length of US 6 and US 20? Most I can claim for 6 is the 95 overlap in Nevada and from I-15 to US 191 in Utah.
US 20, however, I have from Newport Oregon to Cody Wyoming.
I've done US 6 from Bishop East over Loveland Pass. To that point US 6 is a reasonably speedy route but I couldn't fathom how much of a slog it would be through Denver and much of the Midwest.
Even taking each jaunt off of I-70 through Colorado wouldn't be that much of a time sink -- it's akin to doing OR 99 off I-5 or US 30 from I-84.
But yeah, looking east of Denver, or east of Iowa on US 20... daunting.
It's a different ball game out East with the US Routes. It took me the better part of three years to finish US 27, 41, and 1 in Florida alone. US 6 largely stays rural but the route only becomes more densely populated you go. Driving through little towns can be great if there something quaint to see or hellish if all it entails is urban sprawl.
Quote from: cl94 on August 24, 2020, 11:55:31 PM
Adding up referenced DOT mileages for each state, I'm getting roughly 3220 miles (can't find an official mileage for Wyoming). That makes it longer than US 6.
What was the mileage for US 20 in Illinois, according to their DOT?
US-20 is supposedly 167 miles longer so I don't think making minor adjustments here and there are going to make US-6 longer than US-20. Even though US-6 runs on an angle US-20 goes further north and then comes around the bottom of Lake Erie that part is going to make it longer as well as the north-south section in central Wyoming. US-20 takes a more round about way of getting coast to coast than US-6 which doesn't even go coast to coast.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 25, 2020, 10:44:01 AM
US-20 is supposedly 167 miles longer...
"Supposedly" is the whole point of this thread: I am questioning the so-called "official" mileages. My results are right there in the link for anyone to see, to compare to official DOT mileages, and/or to dispute if their own research indicates otherwise.
doesn't US 6 have a weird gap in western Colorado?
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 25, 2020, 12:30:03 PM
doesn't US 6 have a weird gap in western Colorado?
It has several ambiguous gaps in CO now. CDOT considers US 6 to not exist when duplexed with I-70, though AASHTO does.
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 25, 2020, 12:30:03 PM
doesn't US 6 have a weird gap in western Colorado?
Everything about US 6 in Colorado is "weird". Colorado seldom co-signs multiplexes between US routes and Interstates (short overlaps excepted) and it's not shown in the route logs.
US 6 enters Colorado unsigned at I-70 at Utah and exits at the unsigned Mack spur (I-70 Exit 11). Once it rejoins its original alignment, it's signed east through Fruita, Grand Junction, and Clifton and then back onto I-70 at exit 44.
US 6 leaves I-70 at I-70 exit 62 (unsigned from I-70), travels through De Beque and Rifle and rejoins at I-70 exit 109 (also unsigned from I-70 mainline).
There's another signed stretched from Gypsum to Minturn where it again rejoins I-70, though the CDOT route logs say it begins at the Eagle spur from I-70. US 6 is actually even signed on an I-70 exit sign westbound where it leaves I-70 at Minturn.
The next stretch is from Dillon/Silverthorne over Loveland Pass. US 6 is well signed on the exits as it is the main hazmat route over the continental divide (hazmat is banned in the Eisenhower/Johnson Tunnels).
East of Idaho Springs, US 6 leaves I-70 for the penultimate time, following Clear Creek canyon to Golden, then 6th Avenue which is a freeway to I-25 in Denver. There's no BGS mentions to follow the unsigned route on I-25 north, nor to exit onto I-70 east. However, it is well co-signed with reassurance markers on the I-70 mainline with US 85.
US 6 and US 85 follow Vasquez Boulevard northeast to I-76. US 6 is signed with reassurance markers on I-76 until US 85 leaves for Greeley at exit 12. US 6 disappears until it leaves I-76 at Brush (exit 92). After that US 6 has an entirely independent and signed routing to Nebraska.
By my back of the envelope calculations, of the 467 miles of US 6 (per mile markers) in Colorado, about 169 miles of the first 372 are signed.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 25, 2020, 12:52:03 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 25, 2020, 12:30:03 PM
doesn't US 6 have a weird gap in western Colorado?
It has several ambiguous gaps in CO now. CDOT considers US 6 to not exist when duplexed with I-70, though AASHTO does.
I had heard at some point a few years ago it was decommissioned in/through Rifle.
I am suspicious of any methodology that doesn't use official DOT/AASHTO resources. Having dealt with this type of question dozens of times on Wikipedia with state routes, if you start straying from official sources, you risk misidentifying what the "real" route is.
So questions that I feel like need to be answered for this claim to hold up:
1) Where did the US 20 mileage in Yellowstone come from, anyway? Who published it? AASHTO? The Park Service?
2) What route does this US 20 mileage use? What agency asserts that the road in question is the route of US 20?
3) What agency maintains that road?
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 25, 2020, 02:07:02 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 25, 2020, 12:52:03 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 25, 2020, 12:30:03 PM
doesn't US 6 have a weird gap in western Colorado?
It has several ambiguous gaps in CO now. CDOT considers US 6 to not exist when duplexed with I-70, though AASHTO does.
I had heard at some point a few years ago it was decommissioned in/through Rifle.
You're correct. The CDOT route log shows a gap from CO 13 to just past the I-70 exit.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50268217696_4b09ba2ac2_c.jpg)
Quote from: zzcarp on August 25, 2020, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 25, 2020, 02:07:02 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 25, 2020, 12:52:03 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 25, 2020, 12:30:03 PM
doesn't US 6 have a weird gap in western Colorado?
It has several ambiguous gaps in CO now. CDOT considers US 6 to not exist when duplexed with I-70, though AASHTO does.
I had heard at some point a few years ago it was decommissioned in/through Rifle.
You're correct. The CDOT route log shows a gap from CO 13 to just past the I-70 exit.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50268217696_4b09ba2ac2_c.jpg)
But presumptively it is still field signed?
I though I had a copy of the '89 AASHTO log but can't seem to find it.
Doesn't it give distances to the next US route intersection? Should be that hard to figure out where it might be off.
My other vague recollection is that the bannered routes are buried within the listings, so are those included in the total?
Quote from: zzcarp on August 25, 2020, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 25, 2020, 02:07:02 PM
I had heard at some point a few years ago it was decommissioned in/through Rifle.
You're correct. The CDOT route log shows a gap from CO 13 to just past the I-70 exit.
In 2015 CDOT transferred jurisdiction over to the City of about one mile of US 6. But it's still US 6.
Quote from: Bickendan on August 24, 2020, 07:40:28 PM
The real question is, how many people have actually driven the full length of US 6 and US 20?
I have not done either route in full, but have done the entire length of both routes in Illinois and US 6 in Indiana.
US 6 isn't too bad in the western half of IL. It's low traffic and a nice alternate to I-80. LaSalle/Peru can be a bit annoying, but otherwise, it's a nice drive. Starting in Morris, though, going east, the pain comes. There are two turns in Morris, then another relatively quiet area before hitting Minooka and Channahon, where traffic skyrockets. Then there's downtown Joliet, with lots of turns and a draw bridge. If you've still got the patience, you will go right through the heart of the south suburbs of Chicago. And then the real "fun" begins when the route puts you right on the Kingery and Borman. That's plenty of pain, but at least movement is faster. US 6 exits in Lake Station and it fools you for 2 miles into thinking "this isn't too bad," where it turns east in Hobart. There are a LOT of badly timed stoplights that feel like they're every block or two. Don't expect to get anywhere fast. You get to deal with Indiana drivers on top of that. Somewhere between Hobart and Westfield, it calms down, and everything east of US 421 in IN is smooth unless a tractor shows up.
US 20 is smooth and easy west of Galena, but picks up some traffic in Galena proper. Galena to Freeport is kind of rough; it's a two lane road with a fair amount of truck traffic. Freeport to Cherry Valley is no problem; it's an expressway with low traffic. It's still doable east into Elgin; east of Elgin...DON'T DO IT! Talk yourself out of it. It's not worth the headache. Highlights include: heavy traffic, merging onto a freeway just to get off of it right away, red light cameras, a 20 zone followed by a lengthy 25 zone, a railroad crossing that often has long freights, Chicago street parking, and a draw bridge. It's horrible, even at 11 pm.
I added up all the individual state mileage for each route listed on the Travel Mapping website and got 3289.73 for US 20 and 3216.93 for US 6.
Quote from: Bickendan on August 24, 2020, 07:40:28 PM
The real question is, how many people have actually driven the full length of US 6 and US 20? Most I can claim for 6 is the 95 overlap in Nevada and from I-15 to US 191 in Utah.
US 20, however, I have from Newport Oregon to Cody Wyoming.
My longest segments are from Morris, IL to Sandusky, OH on US 6 and from Marengo, IL to OH 49 on US 20.
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 25, 2020, 12:30:03 PM
doesn't US 6 have a weird gap in western Colorado?
I believe that it's mostly unsigned in Colorado and concurrent with I-70 for most of the length west of Denver and concurrent with I-76 for most of the length east of Denver and on it's own path east of Sterling. It's about 467 miles in Colorado those switchbacks in the mountains probably add on a ton of miles.
I don't think I have spent a ton of time on US-6 but have spent some time on US-20. What is the mileage for US-20 in Wyoming? I haven't made it that far west.
Quote from: zzcarp on August 25, 2020, 01:58:30 PM
US 6 enters Colorado unsigned at I-70 at Utah and exits at the unsigned Mack spur (I-70 Exit 11). Once it rejoins its original alignment, it's signed east through Fruita, Grand Junction, and Clifton and then back onto I-70 at exit 44.
Don't forget the "END US 6" sign in Mack (https://goo.gl/maps/yBRn6jmjiCeAp8yu5) just past where it turns toward 70.
Quote from: Duke87 on August 25, 2020, 12:16:55 AM
Quoteusing a method that I believe to be quite accurate (and in some cases, more accurate than the "official" distances posted by state departments of transportation)
And what method would that be?
Google Maps. I measure the mileage through each state in segments of less than 100 miles in order to get results that have a precision to the tenth-mile. Of course I often have to go in and "pin" the route so that GMaps doesn't divert me onto a nearby freeway. Once I've added up all the segments in a given state, I reality check it by comparing my results to the official DOT figure. Probably 95% of the time my measurements are very closely aligned with the DOT measurements, which is why I am quite confident about the accuracy of this method. And it also allows me to confidently attribute the 5% of mismatches to DOT errors (after I have gone back to make sure I am measuring all of the correct route segments).
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
I am suspicious of any methodology that doesn't use official DOT/AASHTO resources. Having dealt with this type of question dozens of times on Wikipedia with state routes, if you start straying from official sources, you risk misidentifying what the "real" route is.
I am suspicious of official DOT/AASHTO resources. I can appreciate your position, but I have seen plenty of examples where the data is either a.) wrong due to human error, b.) wrong because it's outdated, c.) internally inconsistent, or d.) correct but not intended for measuring border-to-border mileage (as you and I have
discussed previously (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=26129.msg2466835#msg2466835)). Regardless, if DOT data is accurate, it should be able to stand up to a little fact-checking. And (as I discussed in post #30) 95% of the time my results do match up well with the official DOT figure.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
So questions that I feel like need to be answered for this claim to hold up:
1) Where did the US 20 mileage in Yellowstone come from, anyway? Who published it? AASHTO? The Park Service?
NPS official maps (
here (https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/maps.htm) and
here (https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/upload/YELL_Tear-Off_Map2016.pdf)) indicate mileages between NPS boundaries and selected junctions. Based on those mileages, one of the implied routes of US 20 through Yellowstone (via the South Loop) is 95 miles, and the other implied route (via Norris Canyon) is 83 miles. But note that all mileages shown there are rounded to the nearest integer, which means each segment is over- or under-stated by up to a half-mile. Each route through the Park consists of five measured segments, and when we multiply the half-mile times those five segments, the total distance could be off by +/- 2.5 miles. My own measured distance of 93.8 miles via South Loop falls within that error margin. My own measured distance of 80.1 miles via Norris Canyon is .4 mile outside of that error margin.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
2) What route does this US 20 mileage use? What agency asserts that the road in question is the route of US 20?
3) What agency maintains that road?
I need some clarification before answering these questions. Are you asking all of these in reference to implied US 20 mileage through Yellowstone? If so, then what is your position regarding US 20's total mileage? Should an implied route through Yellowstone be included in the total, or not? The only reason I measured it was so I would know how much mileage to subtract from the distance required to drive US 20 from coast-to-coast.
Quote from: US 89 on August 25, 2020, 06:42:15 PM
Don't forget the "END US 6" sign in Mack (https://goo.gl/maps/yBRn6jmjiCeAp8yu5) just past where it turns toward 70.
A perfect illustration of one of the points I'm trying to make: government agencies are capable of making mistakes. Sometimes a little discernment is necessary in order to evaluate the accuracy of official information.
That must be relatively recent because it was not there in 2006: http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/6/u10/#sec_13
However, with the exception of the Interstate "co-signed not really" portions, my impression is that US 6 in Colorado was hardly unsigned.
I'd trust DOT data over an amateur roadgeek's fiddling with Google Maps.
Quote from: usends on August 25, 2020, 07:44:39 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
I am suspicious of any methodology that doesn't use official DOT/AASHTO resources. Having dealt with this type of question dozens of times on Wikipedia with state routes, if you start straying from official sources, you risk misidentifying what the "real" route is.
I am suspicious of official DOT/AASHTO resources. I can appreciate your position, but I have seen plenty of examples where the data is either a.) wrong due to human error, b.) wrong because it's outdated, c.) internally inconsistent, or d.) correct but not intended for measuring border-to-border mileage (as you and I have discussed previously (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=26129.msg2466835#msg2466835)). Regardless, if DOT data is accurate, it should be able to stand up to a little fact-checking. And (as I discussed in post #30) 95% of the time my results do match up well with the official DOT figure.
Right, and your Google Maps method is something I've used before, when state DOT data is useless for the purpose. For example, Oklahoma's official mileage is pieced out by control section, which may or may not correspond to the location of actual junctions, so if you're wanting milepost numbers, Google is your only option. Google data can be kind of wonky, too, though; it's only precise to one decimal place, whereas DOT data often goes out to two or three. Also, when there's a closure along the route, you cannot get Google data from it no matter how hard you try.
Quote
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
So questions that I feel like need to be answered for this claim to hold up:
1) Where did the US 20 mileage in Yellowstone come from, anyway? Who published it? AASHTO? The Park Service?
NPS official maps (here (https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/maps.htm) and here (https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/upload/YELL_Tear-Off_Map2016.pdf)) indicate mileages between NPS boundaries and selected junctions. Based on those mileages, one of the implied routes of US 20 through Yellowstone (via the South Loop) is 95 miles, and the other implied route (via Norris Canyon) is 83 miles. But note that all mileages shown there are rounded to the nearest integer, which means each segment is over- or under-stated by up to a half-mile. Each route through the Park consists of five measured segments, and when we multiply the half-mile times those five segments, the total distance could be off by +/- 2.5 miles. My own measured distance of 93.8 miles via South Loop falls within that error margin. My own measured distance of 80.1 miles via Norris Canyon is .4 mile outside of that error margin.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
2) What route does this US 20 mileage use? What agency asserts that the road in question is the route of US 20?
3) What agency maintains that road?
I need some clarification before answering these questions. Are you asking all of these in reference to implied US 20 mileage through Yellowstone? If so, then what is your position regarding US 20's total mileage? Should an implied route through Yellowstone be included in the total, or not? The only reason I measured it was so I would know how much mileage to subtract from the distance required to drive US 20 from coast-to-coast.
Mostly, I'm interested in who, if anyone, claims responsibility for US 20 through that stretch. If the same agency has designated an official routing and has mileage for that, that's probably US 20. If NPS maintains the road through there but doesn't have an officially-designated US 20 routing, it's probably a gap in the route.
Has anyone ever reached out to the Park Museum at Yellowstone for information on possible official routines of the US Routes? I've reached out to other Park museums regarding historical highway information and they usually have something.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 26, 2020, 08:02:01 AM
Has anyone ever reached out to the Park Museum at Yellowstone for information on possible official routines of the US Routes? I've reached out to other Park museums regarding historical highway information and they usually have something.
The US routes do not exist in YNP.
See pdf pg. 21 of the 5th pdf here - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kmrrq5P2bx3RQgkhu-JXDBWABUV85b_X
US 89 defined to end at South Entrance
See pdf pg. 28-29-30 at the 6th (last) pdf here - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kmrrq5P2bx3RQgkhu-JXDBWABUV85b_X
US 14 and US 287 defined to end at Yellowstone Park boundary
US 89 defined to end at Gardiner entrance and south entrance of the park
Quote from: Mapmikey on August 26, 2020, 08:40:16 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 26, 2020, 08:02:01 AM
Has anyone ever reached out to the Park Museum at Yellowstone for information on possible official routines of the US Routes? I've reached out to other Park museums regarding historical highway information and they usually have something.
The US routes do not exist in YNP.
See pdf pg. 21 of the 5th pdf here - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kmrrq5P2bx3RQgkhu-JXDBWABUV85b_X
US 89 defined to end at South Entrance
See pdf pg. 28-29-30 at the 6th (last) pdf here - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kmrrq5P2bx3RQgkhu-JXDBWABUV85b_X
US 14 and US 287 defined to end at Yellowstone Park boundary
US 89 defined to end at Gardiner entrance and south entrance of the park
This is right–as far as the state highway department is concerned. If NPS maintains the road through the park and has a declared alignment through the park it would still be continuous, regardless of what the state highway department says. But it appears that's not likely to be the case.
Quote from: cl94 on August 24, 2020, 11:55:31 PM
Adding up referenced DOT mileages for each state, I'm getting roughly 3220 miles (can't find an official mileage for Wyoming). That makes it longer than US 6.
So even if we set aside the idea that the DOT mileages might not be exactly right, we can still see that AASHTO's "official" figure of 3365 miles is way off. Even if that figure included the mileage through Yellowstone, that still wouldn't account for a difference of 145 miles.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 26, 2020, 12:35:08 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on August 26, 2020, 08:40:16 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 26, 2020, 08:02:01 AM
Has anyone ever reached out to the Park Museum at Yellowstone for information on possible official routines of the US Routes? I've reached out to other Park museums regarding historical highway information and they usually have something.
The US routes do not exist in YNP.
See pdf pg. 21 of the 5th pdf here - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kmrrq5P2bx3RQgkhu-JXDBWABUV85b_X
US 89 defined to end at South Entrance
See pdf pg. 28-29-30 at the 6th (last) pdf here - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kmrrq5P2bx3RQgkhu-JXDBWABUV85b_X
US 14 and US 287 defined to end at Yellowstone Park boundary
US 89 defined to end at Gardiner entrance and south entrance of the park
This is right–as far as the state highway department is concerned. If NPS maintains the road through the park and has a declared alignment through the park it would still be continuous, regardless of what the state highway department says. But it appears that's not likely to be the case.
In this case AASHO also says US routes are not in Yellowstone. If it is accepted that US 441 is not in GMSP despite there being only one defined road through the park, then I think we must accept no US routes in Yellowstone if both the state and AASHO say that and there is no posted route through the park for even the obvious corridors.
Right.
AIUI, there is zero evidence supporting the notion that US-20 exists within Yellowstone. Or am I missing something?
I finally found my 1989 spreadsheet of US routes.
It does not count Yellowstone for US 20 at all (US 89 is also split; oddly, US 441's mileage through GSMNP is included). The east segment is 2500 miles and the west segment is 865 miles for a total of 3365.
However, it counts all the US 20 Bus and US 20 ALT routes in these totals!
Subtracting these out gets an east segment of 2376 miles and a west segment of 861 miles for a total of 3237 miles (in 1989...freewayization in Iowa has likely shortened it a little more)
For US 6: 3249 miles for full list which includes all US 6 ALT, US 6 Bus, US 6 Byp and US 6N.
Subtracting out everything gives 3208 miles. For the curious, it credits Colorado with 474 miles.
The actual difference between US 6 and US 20 on this is close enough that even what I did there won't conclude the question because Iowa may not be the only changes in the last 31 years (and who knows how much of Iowa it has correct as of 1989) for either route. For instance, two Pennsylvania bypasses of US 6 are not yet on there.
Posted mile markers in the field aren't necessarily sacrosanct either as states will sometimes not move/change markers after mid-state changes somewhere.
So either up to date state logs or google measurements along the known route may be the best that can be done.
That gap through Yellowstone made me believe US 6 was (still) the longest US Route until I added the lengths of both segments of US 20.
However I believe the only US Route to exist twice is US 2 (I have indexed the Western one as US 0). All others are continuous, be it via ferry (US 9, US 10 -officially defined as such-, formerly also US 16) or via implied routes (US 422 over US 22 and US 322 -originally just US 22-, all the Yellowstone routes including US 20). Therefore, I consider US 20 to be around 3300 miles (5300 km) long, including the implied section thru Yellowstone and thus about 100 miles (160 km) longer than US 6.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 26, 2020, 12:35:08 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on August 26, 2020, 08:40:16 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 26, 2020, 08:02:01 AM
Has anyone ever reached out to the Park Museum at Yellowstone for information on possible official routines of the US Routes? I've reached out to other Park museums regarding historical highway information and they usually have something.
The US routes do not exist in YNP.
See pdf pg. 21 of the 5th pdf here - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kmrrq5P2bx3RQgkhu-JXDBWABUV85b_X
US 89 defined to end at South Entrance
See pdf pg. 28-29-30 at the 6th (last) pdf here - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kmrrq5P2bx3RQgkhu-JXDBWABUV85b_X
US 14 and US 287 defined to end at Yellowstone Park boundary
US 89 defined to end at Gardiner entrance and south entrance of the park
This is right–as far as the state highway department is concerned. If NPS maintains the road through the park and has a declared alignment through the park it would still be continuous, regardless of what the state highway department says. But it appears that's not likely to be the case.
And there are instances of where the NPS signs or considers a designation to exist. Examples; CA 180 is signed through Kings Canyon National Park and CA 120 is signed through Yosemite National Park. Neither of those two segments is defined in the State's Route definition but it doesn't change the fact that the NPS clearly does it's own thing.
Quote from: Mapmikey on August 26, 2020, 02:39:32 PM
I finally found my 1989 spreadsheet of US routes.
It does not count Yellowstone for US 20 at all (US 89 is also split; oddly, US 441's mileage through GSMNP is included). The east segment is 2500 miles and the west segment is 865 miles for a total of 3365.
However, it counts all the US 20 Bus and US 20 ALT routes in these totals!
Subtracting these out gets an east segment of 2376 miles and a west segment of 861 miles for a total of 3237 miles (in 1989...freewayization in Iowa has likely shortened it a little more)
For US 6: 3249 miles for full list which includes all US 6 ALT, US 6 Bus, US 6 Byp and US 6N.
Was all of AASHTO/FHWA on cocaine for all of 1989 or something? Why the hell would you include
bannered routes in a route's length??
Oregon chopped about 4 miles off US 20 when the Eddyville bypass opened in 2016. I can't think of any other major changes to 20 out here in recent years.
I'm on the side of discounting any Yellowstone mileage. Every official entity says US 20 doesn't exist there, so case closed, imo.
Having said that, I did see a US 212 shield posted in Yellowstone Park, a few miles inside the NE Entrance. And I recall reading or hearing that the National Park Service actually maintains the Wyoming sections of US 212, the Beartooth Highway, even though it's outside the park. I also remember seeing the NPS arrowhead logo on a highway maintenance station up towards Beartooth Pass, which is what made me curious in the first place. This was over a decade ago, though, so it may no longer be the case. Does anyone know the story there?
Quote from: xonhulu on August 26, 2020, 11:25:19 PM
Oregon chopped about 4 miles off US 20 when the Eddyville bypass opened in 2016. I can't think of any other major changes to 20 out here in recent years.
I'm on the side of discounting any Yellowstone mileage. Every official entity says US 20 doesn't exist there, so case closed, imo.
Having said that, I did see a US 212 shield posted in Yellowstone Park, a few miles inside the NE Entrance. And I recall reading or hearing that the National Park Service actually maintains the Wyoming sections of US 212, the Beartooth Highway, even though it's outside the park. I also remember seeing the NPS arrowhead logo on a highway maintenance station up towards Beartooth Pass, which is what made me curious in the first place. This was over a decade ago, though, so it may no longer be the case. Does anyone know the story there?
The Northeast Entrance Road and the Grand Loop to the North Entrance are maintained all year.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 26, 2020, 05:57:29 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on August 26, 2020, 02:39:32 PM
I finally found my 1989 spreadsheet of US routes.
It does not count Yellowstone for US 20 at all (US 89 is also split; oddly, US 441's mileage through GSMNP is included). The east segment is 2500 miles and the west segment is 865 miles for a total of 3365.
However, it counts all the US 20 Bus and US 20 ALT routes in these totals!
Subtracting these out gets an east segment of 2376 miles and a west segment of 861 miles for a total of 3237 miles (in 1989...freewayization in Iowa has likely shortened it a little more)
For US 6: 3249 miles for full list which includes all US 6 ALT, US 6 Bus, US 6 Byp and US 6N.
Was all of AASHTO/FHWA on cocaine for all of 1989 or something? Why the hell would you include bannered routes in a route's length??
They don't actually do that on the spreadsheet I have. There is no grand total given and only state totals are shown (plus individual distances to the next US or Interstate route intersected), which
do not include the bannered routes. But including the bannered routes is the only way to get to the quoted distance of 3365 miles.
I have seen (but unable to find again) a pdf version of the 1989 list and do not remember if it gave a grand total.
Droz's old site had the total length of US 20 as 3237 miles and cites the 1989 log (so he did the same thing I did); Wikipedia quotes the 3365 figure and the source is somebody at FHWA. There are no individual state ttoals on the page.
Droz had US 6 at 3208 miles as he didn't notice an error in the Nevada listing that doesn't separate a US 6 Business out correctly accounting for a few miles off my number. Wikipedia has it at 3199 miles which is the sum of state distances it compiles with references. It should be shorter than the 1989 total because of bypasses added and it is.
I have one question. If you consider US 20 not to exist in Yellowstone, does that mean two separate instances of US 20 exist (and thus US 6 is indisputably the longest US Route)? Because, unlike e.g. I-35 which has two signed alternates each to bridge the Hillsboro-Denton and Burnsville-Lino Lakes sections, US 20 doesn't have any signed route between the East and West entrances.
Quote from: Mapmikey on August 27, 2020, 06:37:56 AM
Wikipedia quotes the 3365 figure and the source is somebody at FHWA. There are no individual state ttoals on the page.
I've flagged it and opened a discussion on the talk page. Hopefully the data buffs will put together an accurate total from state DOT sources soon.
Where did you come across this spreadsheet, anyway?
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on August 27, 2020, 11:15:16 AM
I have one question. If you consider US 20 not to exist in Yellowstone, does that mean two separate instances of US 20 exist (and thus US 6 is indisputably the longest US Route)? Because, unlike e.g. I-35 which has two signed alternates each to bridge the Hillsboro-Denton and Burnsville-Lino Lakes sections, US 20 doesn't have any signed route between the East and West entrances.
This is an ecclesiastical question–do you consider there to be two separate US-2s, or is there one US-2 with a gap in the middle?
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 27, 2020, 01:40:04 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on August 27, 2020, 06:37:56 AM
Wikipedia quotes the 3365 figure and the source is somebody at FHWA. There are no individual state ttoals on the page.
I've flagged it and opened a discussion on the talk page. Hopefully the data buffs will put together an accurate total from state DOT sources soon.
Where did you come across this spreadsheet, anyway?
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on August 27, 2020, 11:15:16 AM
I have one question. If you consider US 20 not to exist in Yellowstone, does that mean two separate instances of US 20 exist (and thus US 6 is indisputably the longest US Route)? Because, unlike e.g. I-35 which has two signed alternates each to bridge the Hillsboro-Denton and Burnsville-Lino Lakes sections, US 20 doesn't have any signed route between the East and West entrances.
This is an ecclesiastical question–do you consider there to be two separate US-2s, or is there one US-2 with a gap in the middle?
IIRC I downloaded it from the AASHTO site several years ago. Pretty sure you can't do that for free anymore.
The 1989 route list treats US 2 and US 20 the same - an East and a West
section. This nomenclature is used for US 10 (not yet added to the ferry in 1989), US 89, US 191 and US 422. I didn't check every potential route.
US routes with an E-W split like US 11 were not given the sectional treatment.
Quote from: sturmde on August 24, 2020, 12:31:35 PM
Well, if MassDOT would oblige... just extend US 20 eastward along MA 28, along MA 1A (then I-90 ends at US 20, much better)... up past Salem and then along MA 127 until you get to the tip of Cape Ann. Then about 39 miles more there and US 20 ends at one cape, and US 6 on the other. 20 wins without Yellowstone! :)
.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.3491133,-71.0888252/Rockport,+MA/@42.5004959,-70.8571475,11z/data=!4m39!4m38!1m30!3m4!1m2!1d-71.0755618!2d42.3524015!3s0x89e37a0b21be24ff:0x78497248cab5ef75!3m4!1m2!1d-71.0369503!2d42.3737214!3s0x89e37044b7037813:0x3edbdd3e505bb7b3!3m4!1m2!1d-70.9614956!2d42.4536533!3s0x89e36d06b88e9781:0x953cfa5838a6bb37!3m4!1m2!1d-70.8898863!2d42.5335598!3s0x89e3146cc40980cd:0x9569fd22a27fd50e!3m4!1m2!1d-70.8239034!2d42.5600398!3s0x89e3163d36694a05:0x8ba35c7e9863cc05!3m4!1m2!1d-70.7539106!2d42.5794996!3s0x89e33ce681b21e89:0xc0e33ee7e098f181!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e3238c9fb119b7:0x6c19b1bc493f43c4!2m2!1d-70.620363!2d42.6556505!3e0
I would love this. I looked at the Street View photo of downtown Rockport near the town beach - I imagined myself relaxing on the beach to celebrate having clinched US 20.
Quote from: Bickendan on August 24, 2020, 07:40:28 PM
The real question is, how many people have actually driven the full length of US 6 and US 20? Most I can claim for 6 is the 95 overlap in Nevada and from I-15 to US 191 in Utah.
US 20, however, I have from Newport Oregon to Cody Wyoming.
someone from Massachusettes should do the loop
Quote from: cl94 on August 24, 2020, 11:55:31 PM
Adding up referenced DOT mileages for each state, I'm getting roughly 3220 miles (can't find an official mileage for Wyoming). That makes it longer than US 6.
Fredddie on Wikipedia did this (using the sources cited in each "U.S. Route 20 in x" state article, plus a Google Maps measurement for WY) and got 3,255.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 01, 2020, 08:07:39 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 24, 2020, 11:55:31 PM
Adding up referenced DOT mileages for each state, I'm getting roughly 3220 miles (can't find an official mileage for Wyoming). That makes it longer than US 6.
Fredddie on Wikipedia did this (using the sources cited in each "U.S. Route 20 in x" state article, plus a Google Maps measurement for WY) and got 3,255.
The WP page for "US 20 in Illinois" shows a distance of 234 miles, but that is overstated by about 35 miles. I suspect cl94 used a more recent and more accurate figure.
Honestly I hope US 6 isn't longer. That highway is just so overdone and US 20 is way more deserving of the title.
Quote from: usends on September 02, 2020, 09:30:48 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 01, 2020, 08:07:39 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 24, 2020, 11:55:31 PM
Adding up referenced DOT mileages for each state, I'm getting roughly 3220 miles (can't find an official mileage for Wyoming). That makes it longer than US 6.
Fredddie on Wikipedia did this (using the sources cited in each "U.S. Route 20 in x" state article, plus a Google Maps measurement for WY) and got 3,255.
The WP page for "US 20 in Illinois" shows a distance of 234 miles, but that is overstated by about 35 miles. I suspect cl94 used a more recent and more accurate figure.
A year later, it looks like no Wikipedians have taken on this challenge. Again, one of the big questions here is the mileage of US 20 in Illinois. WP says 234 mi. (citing 2007 IDOT data), but I think that's significantly overstated. Does anyone know where to access IDOT's route log/mileage data?
Quote from: usends on September 14, 2021, 07:32:06 PM
Quote from: usends on September 02, 2020, 09:30:48 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 01, 2020, 08:07:39 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 24, 2020, 11:55:31 PM
Adding up referenced DOT mileages for each state, I'm getting roughly 3220 miles (can't find an official mileage for Wyoming). That makes it longer than US 6.
Fredddie on Wikipedia did this (using the sources cited in each "U.S. Route 20 in x" state article, plus a Google Maps measurement for WY) and got 3,255.
The WP page for "US 20 in Illinois" shows a distance of 234 miles, but that is overstated by about 35 miles. I suspect cl94 used a more recent and more accurate figure.
A year later, it looks like no Wikipedians have taken on this challenge. Again, one of the big questions here is the mileage of US 20 in Illinois. WP says 234 mi. (citing 2007 IDOT data), but I think that's significantly overstated. Does anyone know where to access IDOT's route log/mileage data?
Travelmapping has it at 199.19
Quote from: Kulerage on September 02, 2020, 05:20:34 PM
Honestly I hope US 6 isn't longer. That highway is just so overdone and US 20 is way more deserving of the title.
I agree, in IL it's superfluous with I-80, and not direct. If US-66 was decommissioned, so should 6, just my opinion.
Also, US-2 is like I-76, different sections, same with the roads to and from Yellowstone.
Quote from: US20IL64 on September 14, 2021, 08:03:26 PM
Quote from: Kulerage on September 02, 2020, 05:20:34 PM
Honestly I hope US 6 isn't longer. That highway is just so overdone and US 20 is way more deserving of the title.
I agree, in IL it's superfluous with I-80, and not direct. If US-66 was decommissioned, so should 6, just my opinion.
Also, US-2 is like I-76, different sections, same with the roads to and from Yellowstone.
Funny, some of the documents I've seen pertaining to US 6's extension show it was at least once proposed to be aligned via Tioga Pass through Yosemite. I didn't quite dig up the reasons why this didn't happen (I assume poor road quality) but I doubt anyone would complain about US 6 today if to crossed the Sierra Nevada Mountains.
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 14, 2021, 07:40:39 PM
Quote from: usends on September 14, 2021, 07:32:06 PM
Quote from: usends on September 02, 2020, 09:30:48 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 01, 2020, 08:07:39 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 24, 2020, 11:55:31 PM
Adding up referenced DOT mileages for each state, I'm getting roughly 3220 miles (can't find an official mileage for Wyoming). That makes it longer than US 6.
Fredddie on Wikipedia did this (using the sources cited in each "U.S. Route 20 in x" state article, plus a Google Maps measurement for WY) and got 3,255.
The WP page for "US 20 in Illinois" shows a distance of 234 miles, but that is overstated by about 35 miles. I suspect cl94 used a more recent and more accurate figure.
A year later, it looks like no Wikipedians have taken on this challenge. Again, one of the big questions here is the mileage of US 20 in Illinois. WP says 234 mi. (citing 2007 IDOT data), but I think that's significantly overstated. Does anyone know where to access IDOT's route log/mileage data?
Travelmapping has it at 199.19
Travelmapping isn't very reliable though because it uses straight-line mileage with a built in factor that accounts for roads curving. That factor is the same across the entire site for every road.
Utah 127, for example, should be almost exactly 2.5 miles based on the section-line grid it is in. UDOT reference mileage for the route is 2.507 miles. TM has it at 2.56.
Quote from: US 89 on September 14, 2021, 11:23:23 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 14, 2021, 07:40:39 PM
Travelmapping has it at 199.19
Travelmapping isn't very reliable though because it uses straight-line mileage with a built in factor that accounts for roads curving. That factor is the same across the entire site for every road.
Using the Google Maps method, I came up with 197.9 miles in Illinois, which is only 1.3 mi. different than Travel Mapping. Granted, either or both methods may yield slight imprecisions, but Travel Mapping nevertheless sounds like a good way to quickly verify whether a figure cited on WP is even in the ballpark. I think it's pretty clear by now that 234 mi. in Illinois is not accurate. However, WP editors are required to cite an official source, which is why I asked whether IDOT has publicly posted more recent mileage figures.
Quote from: usends on September 15, 2021, 08:11:44 AM
Quote from: US 89 on September 14, 2021, 11:23:23 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 14, 2021, 07:40:39 PM
Travelmapping has it at 199.19
Travelmapping isn't very reliable though because it uses straight-line mileage with a built in factor that accounts for roads curving. That factor is the same across the entire site for every road.
Using the Google Maps method, I came up with 197.9 miles in Illinois, which is only 1.3 mi. different than Travel Mapping. Granted, either or both methods may yield slight imprecisions, but Travel Mapping nevertheless sounds like a good way to quickly verify whether a figure cited on WP is even in the ballpark. I think it's pretty clear by now that 234 mi. in Illinois is not accurate. However, WP editors are required to cite an official source, which is why I asked whether IDOT has publicly posted more recent mileage figures.
It's the same thing...US 20 Bus mileage is included.
US 20 Bus Rockford is almost 23 mi
US 20 Bus Freeport is 10.5 mi
Add these to the 198 miles and you are very close to the 234 mile citation.
Quote from: Mapmikey on September 16, 2021, 08:11:11 AM
It's the same thing...US 20 Bus mileage is included.
US 20 Bus Rockford is almost 23 mi
US 20 Bus Freeport is 10.5 mi
Add these to the 198 miles and you are very close to the 234 mile citation.
That adds up, so you're probably right. The thing is: the WP article cites an IDOT source for the 234 miles (not the AASHTO source). It would be surprising if IDOT made the same type of procedural error when calculating their mileage. I guess the alternative explanation is simply that a WP editor misinterpreted IDOT data.
At any rate, we're back to where we started a year ago:
* The 3365-mile figure for US 20 is obviously way overstated.
* Is it overstated enough that US 6 is actually longer?
* My own calculations say yes: US 6 is 3205.4, while US 20 is 3203.3.
* Someone countered with the mileages cited on WP, yielding US 6 at 3205, and US 20 at 3220.
* Why is it that our US 6 figures match almost exactly, while our US 20 totals are off by 17 miles?
* Here are some specific states (in addition to Illinois) where I think WP has overstated mileages for US 20:
- Oregon: I have 446.1; WP says 451, but the citation is to some defunct Angelfire website. So there's 5 miles.
- Idaho: I have 401.0; WP says 411, but the citation is a Google map that includes mileage in Montana. So there's another 10 miles.
- My totals for several other states differ by lesser amounts, ranging from a few tenths to over a mile.
Quote from: xonhulu on August 26, 2020, 11:25:19 PM
Having said that, I did see a US 212 shield posted in Yellowstone Park, a few miles inside the NE Entrance. And I recall reading or hearing that the National Park Service actually maintains the Wyoming sections of US 212, the Beartooth Highway, even though it's outside the park. I also remember seeing the NPS arrowhead logo on a highway maintenance station up towards Beartooth Pass, which is what made me curious in the first place. This was over a decade ago, though, so it may no longer be the case. Does anyone know the story there?
I was on US 212 going westbound last month. I did not see any route markers inside the park boundary. In terms of maintenance, there is a distinct change of road quality when you cross from Montana into Wyoming going west. There is a green sign pointing to Cody at the state route intersection in Wyoming. No state route markers going west, but there may have been going east. Signage said "Entering Wyoming" going west instead of a standard state line sign, and there was no sign upon re-entering Montana, but the road maintenance standards change again, and signage is done to typical Montana standards elsewhere through Cooke City. There is also an appreciable road quality change at the park boundary, which lies just north of the state line, and if I'm not mistaken, a 0 mile marker.
There are definitely no route markers posted in the park for any of the US routes. We were headed to West Yellowstone, but due to a road closure on Grand Loop Road between Tower and Canyon, we had to go through Mammoth Hot Springs and make our way south from there. Destination signs are hard to read, as they're usually just small dark signs with small white lettering and arrows.
Signage in GSMNP used to say "To US 441 North," and "To US 441 South" along with a mockup of an old-style TN 73 triangle. ("To TN 73") but I don't recall having seen any route markers within park boundaries.
I believe that Kentucky used to sign KY 70 and KY 255 through Mammoth Cave ages ago, but no longer. The old-style printed county maps showed state maintenance ending at the park boundaries, and official mileage logs indicate the same. This makes KY 70 a route with three separate segments, as there's a gap at the Cumberland River in addition to Mammoth Cave.
US 20 at Eddyville OR was placed on new alignment around 2013 that shaves 4 miles off its distance...
Quote from: hbelkins on September 16, 2021, 11:58:28 AM
Quote from: xonhulu on August 26, 2020, 11:25:19 PM
Having said that, I did see a US 212 shield posted in Yellowstone Park, a few miles inside the NE Entrance. And I recall reading or hearing that the National Park Service actually maintains the Wyoming sections of US 212, the Beartooth Highway, even though it's outside the park. I also remember seeing the NPS arrowhead logo on a highway maintenance station up towards Beartooth Pass, which is what made me curious in the first place. This was over a decade ago, though, so it may no longer be the case. Does anyone know the story there?
I was on US 212 going westbound last month. I did not see any route markers inside the park boundary. In terms of maintenance, there is a distinct change of road quality when you cross from Montana into Wyoming going west. There is a green sign pointing to Cody at the state route intersection in Wyoming. No state route markers going west, but there may have been going east. Signage said "Entering Wyoming" going west instead of a standard state line sign, and there was no sign upon re-entering Montana, but the road maintenance standards change again, and signage is done to typical Montana standards elsewhere through Cooke City. There is also an appreciable road quality change at the park boundary, which lies just north of the state line, and if I'm not mistaken, a 0 mile marker.
There are definitely no route markers posted in the park for any of the US routes. We were headed to West Yellowstone, but due to a road closure on Grand Loop Road between Tower and Canyon, we had to go through Mammoth Hot Springs and make our way south from there. Destination signs are hard to read, as they're usually just small dark signs with small white lettering and arrows.
Signage in GSMNP used to say "To US 441 North," and "To US 441 South" along with a mockup of an old-style TN 73 triangle. ("To TN 73") but I don't recall having seen any route markers within park boundaries.
I believe that Kentucky used to sign KY 70 and KY 255 through Mammoth Cave ages ago, but no longer. The old-style printed county maps showed state maintenance ending at the park boundaries, and official mileage logs indicate the same. This makes KY 70 a route with three separate segments, as there's a gap at the Cumberland River in addition to Mammoth Cave.
Actually US 191 is sign posted in the Gallatin Mountains at the western extremes of the park. I think Montana is maintaining that segment given it has all their typical markings and signs.
Quote from: zzcarp on August 25, 2020, 01:58:30 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 25, 2020, 12:30:03 PM
doesn't US 6 have a weird gap in western Colorado?
Everything about US 6 in Colorado is "weird". Colorado seldom co-signs multiplexes between US routes and Interstates (short overlaps excepted) and it's not shown in the route logs.
US 6 enters Colorado unsigned at I-70 at Utah and exits at the unsigned Mack spur (I-70 Exit 11). Once it rejoins its original alignment, it's signed east through Fruita, Grand Junction, and Clifton and then back onto I-70 at exit 44.
US 6 leaves I-70 at I-70 exit 62 (unsigned from I-70), travels through De Beque and Rifle and rejoins at I-70 exit 109 (also unsigned from I-70 mainline).
There's another signed stretched from Gypsum to Minturn where it again rejoins I-70, though the CDOT route logs say it begins at the Eagle spur from I-70. US 6 is actually even signed on an I-70 exit sign westbound where it leaves I-70 at Minturn.
The next stretch is from Dillon/Silverthorne over Loveland Pass. US 6 is well signed on the exits as it is the main hazmat route over the continental divide (hazmat is banned in the Eisenhower/Johnson Tunnels).
East of Idaho Springs, US 6 leaves I-70 for the penultimate time, following Clear Creek canyon to Golden, then 6th Avenue which is a freeway to I-25 in Denver. There's no BGS mentions to follow the unsigned route on I-25 north, nor to exit onto I-70 east. However, it is well co-signed with reassurance markers on the I-70 mainline with US 85.
US 6 and US 85 follow Vasquez Boulevard northeast to I-76. US 6 is signed with reassurance markers on I-76 until US 85 leaves for Greeley at exit 12. US 6 disappears until it leaves I-76 at Brush (exit 92). After that US 6 has an entirely independent and signed routing to Nebraska.
By my back of the envelope calculations, of the 467 miles of US 6 (per mile markers) in Colorado, about 169 miles of the first 372 are signed.
There is some cryptic signage for US-6 in Glenwood Springs on what is more or less a frontage road just north of I-70 between Exit 114 and Exit 116. Signs at the Exit 114 roundabout direct US-6 West down a dead-end stub by the almost-dead Glenwood Springs Mall.
Also, there is an "official" END US-6 assembly on WB US-6 in Mack, just past the turn-off (for the REAL unsigned US-6) to I-70 Exit 11.
And depending on what signage you can find, I believe there is still at least one reference to US-6 along it's original alignment between Gypsum and Dotsero.
Quote from: thenetwork on September 16, 2021, 09:35:52 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on August 25, 2020, 01:58:30 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 25, 2020, 12:30:03 PM
doesn't US 6 have a weird gap in western Colorado?
Everything about US 6 in Colorado is "weird". Colorado seldom co-signs multiplexes between US routes and Interstates (short overlaps excepted) and it's not shown in the route logs.
US 6 enters Colorado unsigned at I-70 at Utah and exits at the unsigned Mack spur (I-70 Exit 11). Once it rejoins its original alignment, it's signed east through Fruita, Grand Junction, and Clifton and then back onto I-70 at exit 44.
US 6 leaves I-70 at I-70 exit 62 (unsigned from I-70), travels through De Beque and Rifle and rejoins at I-70 exit 109 (also unsigned from I-70 mainline).
There's another signed stretched from Gypsum to Minturn where it again rejoins I-70, though the CDOT route logs say it begins at the Eagle spur from I-70. US 6 is actually even signed on an I-70 exit sign westbound where it leaves I-70 at Minturn.
The next stretch is from Dillon/Silverthorne over Loveland Pass. US 6 is well signed on the exits as it is the main hazmat route over the continental divide (hazmat is banned in the Eisenhower/Johnson Tunnels).
East of Idaho Springs, US 6 leaves I-70 for the penultimate time, following Clear Creek canyon to Golden, then 6th Avenue which is a freeway to I-25 in Denver. There's no BGS mentions to follow the unsigned route on I-25 north, nor to exit onto I-70 east. However, it is well co-signed with reassurance markers on the I-70 mainline with US 85.
US 6 and US 85 follow Vasquez Boulevard northeast to I-76. US 6 is signed with reassurance markers on I-76 until US 85 leaves for Greeley at exit 12. US 6 disappears until it leaves I-76 at Brush (exit 92). After that US 6 has an entirely independent and signed routing to Nebraska.
By my back of the envelope calculations, of the 467 miles of US 6 (per mile markers) in Colorado, about 169 miles of the first 372 are signed.
There is some cryptic signage for US-6 in Glenwood Springs on what is more or less a frontage road just north of I-70 between Exit 114 and Exit 116. Signs at the Exit 114 roundabout direct US-6 West down a dead-end stub by the almost-dead Glenwood Springs Mall.
Also, there is an "official" END US-6 assembly on WB US-6 in Mack, just past the turn-off (for the REAL unsigned US-6) to I-70 Exit 11.
And depending on what signage you can find, I believe there is still at least one reference to US-6 along it's original alignment between Gypsum and Dotsero.
Why don't they just sign 6 on 70 through there?
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 25, 2020, 12:30:03 PM
doesn't US 6 have a weird gap in western Colorado?
It does, even beyond just inconsistent signage. US 6 has been officially deleted along a short segment in Rifle where CDOT wanted to dump maintenance, between roughly Clarkson Ave and the SH 13 western bypass.
Coming back to this topic after another year has passed. I've been gathering official DOT mileages in each state through which US 6 and/or US 20 passes. That is now mostly complete, so now I have two sets of mileages: those that I obtained by using GMaps, and the mileages obtained when using DOT figures. All of these figures can be viewed (along with several other updates) in my blog post (https://www.usends.com/blog/which-highway-is-longer-us-route-6-or-us-route-20). That also provides a link to the specific DOT sources that were used, as well as an interesting section listing the various US routes that have been able to claim the title of "longest" at some point in time. But to summarize:
* When using GMaps, US 6 measures 9/10ths of a mile longer than US 20.
* When using mileages listed by the various state DOTs, US 6 comes out to be about 11 miles longer than US 20.
So at this point I'm quite certain that US 6 truly has re-surpassed US 20 as the longest route in the U.S. I would feel even more confident making that statement if I had official DOT mileages from three remaining states: PA, IL, and CO. It appears those three states do not post their statewide mileages online, and I have not been able to get a response after contacting them directly. So in the meantime, I have substituted the mileages for those three states that were listed in AASHTO's 1989 route log (after all, those were official DOT mileages, albeit from a long time ago). Obviously that is not the ideal solution, so if anyone has better luck than me with getting more current official mileages from any of those three DOTs, please let me know.
Quote from: usends on October 10, 2022, 10:14:22 AM
Coming back to this topic after another year has passed. I've been gathering official DOT mileages in each state through which US 6 and/or US 20 passes. That is now mostly complete, so now I have two sets of mileages: those that I obtained by using GMaps, and the mileages obtained when using DOT figures. All of these figures can be viewed (along with several other updates) in my blog post (https://www.usends.com/blog/which-highway-is-longer-us-route-6-or-us-route-20). That also provides a link to the specific DOT sources that were used, as well as an interesting section listing the various US routes that have been able to claim the title of "longest" at some point in time. But to summarize:
* When using GMaps, US 6 measures 9/10ths of a mile longer than US 20.
* When using mileages listed by the various state DOTs, US 6 comes out to be about 11 miles longer than US 20.
So at this point I'm quite certain that US 6 truly has re-surpassed US 20 as the longest route in the U.S. I would feel even more confident making that statement if I had official DOT mileages from three remaining states: PA, IL, and CO. It appears those three states do not post their statewide mileages online, and I have not been able to get a response after contacting them directly. So in the meantime, I have substituted the mileages for those three states that were listed in AASHTO's 1989 route log (after all, those were official DOT mileages, albeit from a long time ago). Obviously that is not the ideal solution, so if anyone has better luck than me with getting more current official mileages from any of those three DOTs, please let me know.
Impressive work, but I wonder how many will be persuaded by it.
As far as Colorado goes, you could probably get a reasonably accurate figure by adding up all of the segments from the OTIS Highway Data Explorer (https://dtdapps.coloradodot.info/otis/HighwayData).
Not that this wouldn't have its own issues. As you no doubt know, Colorado doesn't track concurrencies, so you'd have to account for all of the overlaps on I-70/I-25/etc. Not to mention that Colorado's defined and signed route of US 6 differs from the AASHTO route in a few places, most notably in the De Beque vicinity where CDOT apparently signed 6 on the old road without approval from AASHTO (who thinks it's on 70 through there). Also several route 6 segments along 70 in the mountains that don't connect through, like "006K" in Glenwood Springs and "006N" in Gypsum...it's messy. But probably accurate to within a few miles given how closely the frontage road parallels 70.
Quote from: US 89 on October 10, 2022, 11:35:54 AM
As far as Colorado goes, you could probably get a reasonably accurate figure by adding up all of the segments from the OTIS Highway Data Explorer (https://dtdapps.coloradodot.info/otis/HighwayData).
I touched on this in the blog post, but the biggest issue with OTIS is that it's based on mileposts, not actual mileage. Obviously mileposts usually aren't recalibrated every time a highway's alignment changes, and the cumulative effect of that has resulted in OTIS mileposts being off by approx. seven miles (as compared to actual mileage).
I think how the states handle these concurrencies with US 6 and US 20 make a difference.
From Nebraska east, both US 6 and US 20 pass through the exact same states, and any Interstate concurrency is well-signed.
West of there, they are treated differently. Wyoming and Idaho and Oregon sign their concurrencies, so all of mainline US 20 is signed (except Yellowstone).
Colorado and Utah don't, and Colorado especially seems to be extremely poor at it. But without counting these implied but unsigned concurrencies, US 6 would be a couple hundred miles shorter easily.
But, if we count the long stretches of unsigned, implied concurrencies of US 6 along I-76 and I-70, why shouldn't we count the unsigned, implied route of US 20 through Yellowstone? It occurs as legitimate as well (maybe because I grew up only a mile north of US 20 and 10 miles south of US 6 makes me lean a little on the US 20 side.
I don't have a good answer to this other than we can, in theory, make both conclusions depending on where and which mileage we count.
Problem with US 20 is that there is no implied route though Yellowstone nor has there ever been one. The only US Route ever to be signed at all in Yellowstone is US 191 in the Gallatin Mountains on the western extent of the park.
Quote from: zzcarp on October 10, 2022, 12:03:20 PM
Colorado and Utah don't, and Colorado especially seems to be extremely poor at it. But without counting these implied but unsigned concurrencies, US 6 would be a couple hundred miles shorter easily.
Utah doesn't really sign the US 6/I-70 concurrency, but it does sign the I-15 one quite well. Regardless of how well any overlaps are signed, the Utah log entry for US 6 definitely includes the mileage on them:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1BCLJ89rmFUTrXZaDJsdo4qHEj019h0md
I still hold the view that US 20 is longer. Because if Yellowstone is omitted, then there are two separate routes sharing the US 20 number, one from Newport, Oregon to West Yellowstone, Montana; and the other from the East Entrance of Yellowstone, Wyoming to Boston, Massachusetts; thus making US 6 undisputably longer than either segment (and the Eastern US 20 would rank outside the top 10 even). If US 20 is to be considered continuous, then Yellowstone must be included in any capacity (since there must be no gaps in a continuous route), and this would make US 20 undisputably the longest.
Really the whole situation with US 20 made sense when it ended at Yellowstone. Once it was extended west of the park some sort of continuation signage should have been erected. I never have understood why the National Park Service is so inconsistent with signing highways through their jurisdictions. Locally here in California we get continuation signage for CA 140, CA 120 and CA 180 on NPS maintained roadways, so why not US Routes in Yellowstone?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 10, 2022, 04:36:07 PM
Really the whole situation with US 20 made sense when it ended at Yellowstone. Once it was extended west of the park some sort of continuation signage should have been erected. I never have understood why the National Park Service is so inconsistent with signing highways through their jurisdictions. Locally here in California we get continuation signage for CA 140, CA 120 and CA 180 on NPS maintained roadways, so why not US Routes in Yellowstone?
I agree. I've always believed signage is first and foremost for navigation, and should be that way. Sign the routes and put "NO STATE MAINTENANCE" banners next to the shields, or something similar.
Quote from: Quillz on October 10, 2022, 09:19:23 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 10, 2022, 04:36:07 PM
Really the whole situation with US 20 made sense when it ended at Yellowstone. Once it was extended west of the park some sort of continuation signage should have been erected. I never have understood why the National Park Service is so inconsistent with signing highways through their jurisdictions. Locally here in California we get continuation signage for CA 140, CA 120 and CA 180 on NPS maintained roadways, so why not US Routes in Yellowstone?
I agree. I've always believed signage is first and foremost for navigation, and should be that way. Sign the routes and put "NO STATE MAINTENANCE" banners next to the shields, or something similar.
I like how the NPS does it in Grant Grove. They just put up Caltrans spec CA 180 shields and called it a day. No need to advertise to the average driver who is maintaining a particular segment of a sign route.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on October 10, 2022, 04:12:57 PM
I still hold the view that US 20 is longer. Because if Yellowstone is ommited, then there are two separate routes sharing the US 20 number, one from Newport, Oregon to West Yellowstone, Montana; and the other from the East Entrance of Yellowstone, Wyoming to Boston, Massachusetts; thus making US 6 undisputably longer than either segment (and the Eastern US 20 would rank outside the top 10 even). If US 20 is to be considered continuous, then Yellowstone must be included in any capacity (since there must be no gaps in a continuous route), and this would make US 20 undisputably the longest.
I agree with you there. While US 20 may not
technically exist inside Yellowstone and isn't signed in the park, my thought is that it still
functionally goes through Yellowstone. After all, if I were to drive the entire length of US 20 from Newport, Oregon, all the way to Boston (which I would definitely love to do at some point), I would have to go through Yellowstone. Apple Maps, to their credit, seems to understand this and marks US 20 through the park, even though the National Park Service won't.
Incidentally, if you follow the route that Apple Maps indicates US 20 as following through Yellowstone (West Entrance -> Madison Junction -> Old Faithful -> West Thumb -> Fishing Bridge -> East Entrance), and add up the distances printed on the NPS map of the park, it gives a total distance of 14 + 16 + 17 + 21 + 27 = 95 miles through Yellowstone. Added to the length of 3,205 miles given a few posts upthread, it sums up to a total length of exactly 3,300 miles - not quite the 3,365-mile length that is commonly believed, but somewhat closer to it, and definitely long enough to be the longest highway in the country.
Guys, there is seriously zero inference in the Yellowstone park how to get to the two segments of US 20. I don't get how some of you are equating (Apple Maps is being used an argument?) that it somehow is implied to exist when it clearly does not. Don't believe me, see for yourself:
https://www.gribblenation.org/2021/12/grand-loop-road-of-yellowstone-national.html
https://flickr.com/photos/151828809@N08/sets/72157719819236751
I scanned the extension documents for US 20 west of Yellowstone in this blog from the AASHTO database, not a single reference to an implied route through the park:
https://www.gribblenation.org/2021/11/us-route-20-over-targhee-pass-to-west.html?m=1
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 10, 2022, 10:16:27 PM
Guys, there is seriously zero inference in the Yellowstone park how to get to the two segments of US 20. I don't get how some of you are equating (Apple Maps is being used an argument?) that it somehow is implied to exist when it clearly does not. Don't believe me, see for yourself:
https://www.gribblenation.org/2021/12/grand-loop-road-of-yellowstone-national.html
https://flickr.com/photos/151828809@N08/sets/72157719819236751
I scanned the extension documents for US 20 west of Yellowstone in this blog from the AASHTO database, not a single reference to an implied route through the park:
https://www.gribblenation.org/2021/11/us-route-20-over-targhee-pass-to-west.html?m=1
Well, the techs in charge of programming Apple Maps clearly implied it to exist.
Quote from: KCRoadFan on October 10, 2022, 10:20:15 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 10, 2022, 10:16:27 PM
Guys, there is seriously zero inference in the Yellowstone park how to get to the two segments of US 20. I don't get how some of you are equating (Apple Maps is being used an argument?) that it somehow is implied to exist when it clearly does not. Don't believe me, see for yourself:
https://www.gribblenation.org/2021/12/grand-loop-road-of-yellowstone-national.html
https://flickr.com/photos/151828809@N08/sets/72157719819236751
I scanned the extension documents for US 20 west of Yellowstone in this blog from the AASHTO database, not a single reference to an implied route through the park:
https://www.gribblenation.org/2021/11/us-route-20-over-targhee-pass-to-west.html?m=1
Well, the techs in charge of programming Apple Maps clearly implied it to exist.
And since when has Apple been known for map data accuracy?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 10, 2022, 09:23:32 PM
Quote from: Quillz on October 10, 2022, 09:19:23 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 10, 2022, 04:36:07 PM
Really the whole situation with US 20 made sense when it ended at Yellowstone. Once it was extended west of the park some sort of continuation signage should have been erected. I never have understood why the National Park Service is so inconsistent with signing highways through their jurisdictions. Locally here in California we get continuation signage for CA 140, CA 120 and CA 180 on NPS maintained roadways, so why not US Routes in Yellowstone?
I agree. I've always believed signage is first and foremost for navigation, and should be that way. Sign the routes and put "NO STATE MAINTENANCE" banners next to the shields, or something similar.
I like how the NPS does it in Grant Grove. They just put up Caltrans spec CA 180 shields and called it a day. No need to advertise to the average driver who is maintaining a particular segment of a sign route.
Exactly. Although Yosemite uses MUTCD-style 395 shields, not California spec.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faaroads.com%2Fshields%2Fimg%2FCA%2FCA19750411i1.jpg&hash=25822a96199ae55220c64073b5dd25fcee212792)
There is also an instance where the shields are black and white instead. Most likely to look better on signage, but also works as sort of an indicator it's not state maintained.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faaroads.com%2Fshields%2Fimg%2FCA%2FCA19750411i2.jpg&hash=2730d52df8646c45082540aba2d548b80ae82b64)
Should be noted that even in the area, NPS is not afraid to sign US highways - there are shields in Grand Teton where 26/287 split off of 89/191 (https://goo.gl/maps/VnckedoNN1gCwViH8), for example.
I think there's this obsession of sorts with keeping Yellowstone "special" and its own thing separate from the rest of the world. They also may not want to put shields on certain parts of the Grand Loop Road and artificially skew the traffic distributions on it, in a park that has enough traffic as it is. Better to keep the traffic as evenly distributed around the park roads as possible. Yeah, various online mapping services have filled in some implied routes for the various highways up there, but there's little to no cell service in the park so unless you downloaded offline maps in advance you're going to be using the paper NPS map anyway.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 10, 2022, 10:25:58 PM
And since when has Apple been known for map data accuracy?
Agree. It's like choosing a route using tarot cards :D
Quote from: US 89 on October 11, 2022, 01:11:21 AM
Should be noted that even in the area, NPS is not afraid to sign US highways - there are shields in Grand Teton where 26/287 split off of 89/191 (https://goo.gl/maps/VnckedoNN1gCwViH8), for example.
I think there's this obsession of sorts with keeping Yellowstone "special" and its own thing separate from the rest of the world. They also may not want to put shields on certain parts of the Grand Loop Road and artificially skew the traffic distributions on it, in a park that has enough traffic as it is. Better to keep the traffic as evenly distributed around the park roads as possible. Yeah, various online mapping services have filled in some implied routes for the various highways up there, but there's little to no cell service in the park so unless you downloaded offline maps in advance you're going to be using the paper NPS map anyway.
Which I believe has much to do with the boundaries of Teton once being far smaller than present day. The original alignments of the US Routes followed Teton Park Road instead of the the bypass used today. Much of John D Rockefeller Parkway was also once outside the Teton Park boundary.
Regarding Yellowstone, this is the paper map visitors get:
https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/upload/YELL-GRTE-Tear-Off-Map-2022_508.pdf
Probably worth noting that the Grand Loop Road has an actual short limited access segment at Old Faithful.
Quote from: Quillz on October 11, 2022, 01:03:23 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 10, 2022, 09:23:32 PM
Quote from: Quillz on October 10, 2022, 09:19:23 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 10, 2022, 04:36:07 PM
Really the whole situation with US 20 made sense when it ended at Yellowstone. Once it was extended west of the park some sort of continuation signage should have been erected. I never have understood why the National Park Service is so inconsistent with signing highways through their jurisdictions. Locally here in California we get continuation signage for CA 140, CA 120 and CA 180 on NPS maintained roadways, so why not US Routes in Yellowstone?
I agree. I've always believed signage is first and foremost for navigation, and should be that way. Sign the routes and put "NO STATE MAINTENANCE" banners next to the shields, or something similar.
I like how the NPS does it in Grant Grove. They just put up Caltrans spec CA 180 shields and called it a day. No need to advertise to the average driver who is maintaining a particular segment of a sign route.
Exactly. Although Yosemite uses MUTCD-style 395 shields, not California spec.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faaroads.com%2Fshields%2Fimg%2FCA%2FCA19750411i1.jpg&hash=25822a96199ae55220c64073b5dd25fcee212792)
There is also an instance where the shields are black and white instead. Most likely to look better on signage, but also works as sort of an indicator it's not state maintained.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faaroads.com%2Fshields%2Fimg%2FCA%2FCA19750411i2.jpg&hash=2730d52df8646c45082540aba2d548b80ae82b64)
My favorite was the white CA 120 shields displayed leaving Crane Flat:
https://flic.kr/p/VgfEQX
Quote from: KCRoadFan on October 10, 2022, 10:11:16 PM
While US 20 may not technically exist inside Yellowstone and isn't signed in the park, my thought is that it still functionally goes through Yellowstone. After all, if I were to drive the entire length of US 20 from Newport, Oregon, all the way to Boston (which I would definitely love to do at some point), I would have to go through Yellowstone.
And, if you did so, then you'd have two options to choose from–the more northerly route or the more southerly route. Neither one has any more indication of being US-20 than the other.
Quote from: KCRoadFan on October 10, 2022, 10:11:16 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on October 10, 2022, 04:12:57 PM
I still hold the view that US 20 is longer. Because if Yellowstone is ommited, then there are two separate routes sharing the US 20 number, one from Newport, Oregon to West Yellowstone, Montana; and the other from the East Entrance of Yellowstone, Wyoming to Boston, Massachusetts; thus making US 6 undisputably longer than either segment (and the Eastern US 20 would rank outside the top 10 even). If US 20 is to be considered continuous, then Yellowstone must be included in any capacity (since there must be no gaps in a continuous route), and this would make US 20 undisputably the longest.
I agree with you there. While US 20 may not technically exist inside Yellowstone and isn't signed in the park, my thought is that it still functionally goes through Yellowstone. After all, if I were to drive the entire length of US 20 from Newport, Oregon, all the way to Boston (which I would definitely love to do at some point), I would have to go through Yellowstone.
Actually no you wouldn't. You could drive to the park entrance, turn around, drive around the park to the other entrance and continue from there. Of course you aren't going to do that, but if you did, you would still have driven the entire length of US-20.
Just like you don't *have* to take the S.S. Badger to drive the entire length of US-10.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 11, 2022, 10:32:26 AM
Just like you don't *have* to take the S.S. Badger to drive the entire length of US-10.
Sure, you do.
Quote from: Rothman on October 11, 2022, 12:37:59 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 11, 2022, 10:32:26 AM
Just like you don't *have* to take the S.S. Badger to drive the entire length of US-10.
Sure, you do.
Yeah, I had forgotten they officially added the ferry to the route. So nevermind that....
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 11, 2022, 01:31:42 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 11, 2022, 12:37:59 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 11, 2022, 10:32:26 AM
Just like you don't *have* to take the S.S. Badger to drive the entire length of US-10.
Sure, you do.
Yeah, I had forgotten they officially added the ferry to the route. So nevermind that....
Hey could someone please provide a link to the actual documentation of the SS Badger being added to US-10?
Quote from: kphoger on October 11, 2022, 01:43:43 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 11, 2022, 01:31:42 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 11, 2022, 12:37:59 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 11, 2022, 10:32:26 AM
Just like you don't *have* to take the S.S. Badger to drive the entire length of US-10.
Sure, you do.
Yeah, I had forgotten they officially added the ferry to the route. So nevermind that....
Hey could someone please provide a link to the actual documentation of the SS Badger being added to US-10?
Regardless of whether or not the ferry itself is part of US 10, on both ends you have to enter the ferry queue in order to clinch the road portion of US 10, so doing that without actually taking the ferry could be tricky.
Quote from: kphoger on October 11, 2022, 01:43:43 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 11, 2022, 01:31:42 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 11, 2022, 12:37:59 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 11, 2022, 10:32:26 AM
Just like you don't *have* to take the S.S. Badger to drive the entire length of US-10.
Sure, you do.
Yeah, I had forgotten they officially added the ferry to the route. So nevermind that....
Hey could someone please provide a link to the actual documentation of the SS Badger being added to US-10?
https://www.ssbadger.com/news-media/us-10-designation.html
The link to aashto is broken however...
Quote from: Rothman on October 11, 2022, 12:37:59 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 11, 2022, 10:32:26 AM
Just like you don't *have* to take the S.S. Badger to drive the entire length of US-10.
Sure, you do.
Badger!?!??
You don't need no stinkin' Badger!
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 11, 2022, 01:58:59 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 11, 2022, 01:43:43 PM
Hey could someone please provide a link to the actual documentation of the SS Badger being added to US-10?
https://www.ssbadger.com/news-media/us-10-designation.html
The link to aashto is broken however...
Yeah, I had seen that page, and I had seen the broken link. But it's just a generic link (/Pages/Default.aspx) anyway.
OK, how about US 9 and the Cape May-Lewes Ferry?
Let's put this another way.
If someone drove every inch of US-20, but did not drive through Yellowstone, would anyone claim that they didn't clinch the highway?
I don't think so.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 12, 2022, 12:37:18 PM
Let's put this another way.
If someone drove every inch of US-20, but did not drive through Yellowstone, would anyone claim that they didn't clinch the highway?
I don't think so.
I agree, but I think it's a pointless hypothetical. I'm having a hard time imagining a person who would want to clinch US 20 and yet take the time to circumvent Yellowstone rather than at least driving through, if not stopping for a while.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 12, 2022, 12:34:02 PM
OK, how about US 9 and the Cape May, NJ-Lewes, DE Ferry?
Same way. The US 9 designation is officially applied to the ferry route.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 12, 2022, 12:37:18 PM
Let's put this another way.
If someone drove every inch of US-20, but did not drive through Yellowstone, would anyone claim that they didn't clinch the highway?
I don't think so.
Not that someone would, but they could and it would count as a clinch.
Y'all know US 6 also has an AASHTO-recognized gap in Colorado, right...
Quote from: US 89 on October 12, 2022, 05:33:33 PM
Y'all know US 6 also has an AASHTO-recognized gap in Colorado, right...
Heh, I was waiting for someone to bring that up. I should note, my thoughts on the gap of US 20 in Yellowstone have nothing to do with which route is longer (US 20 or US 6). That AASHTO gap certainly hurts the case for US 6.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 12, 2022, 12:34:02 PM
OK, how about US 9 and the Cape May-Lewes Ferry?
The Ferry's website - in their FAQ section - state that the approaches to the ferries are considered US 9 and are subject to applicable traffic laws. I guess to prevent someone loading their car under the influence and being subject to a DUI, or letting your 14-year-old drive the car onto the ferry.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 12, 2022, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 12, 2022, 12:37:18 PM
Let's put this another way.
If someone drove every inch of US-20, but did not drive through Yellowstone, would anyone claim that they didn't clinch the highway?
I don't think so.
I agree, but I think it's a pointless hypothetical. I'm having a hard time imagining a person who would want to clinch US 20 and yet take the time to circumvent Yellowstone rather than at least driving through, if not stopping for a while.
If US-20 had ever traversed that route, then for my own purposes, I'd want to drive it in order to feel like I had clinched it. Once I've done a basic clinch, I look for more things to add to it, by doing old alignments.
But it apparently never traversed it anyway.
Quote from: usends on October 10, 2022, 10:14:22 AM
Coming back to this topic after another year has passed. I've been gathering official DOT mileages in each state through which US 6 and/or US 20 passes. That is now mostly complete, so now I have two sets of mileages: those that I obtained by using GMaps, and the mileages obtained when using DOT figures. All of these figures can be viewed (along with several other updates) in my blog post (https://www.usends.com/blog/which-highway-is-longer-us-route-6-or-us-route-20). That also provides a link to the specific DOT sources that were used, as well as an interesting section listing the various US routes that have been able to claim the title of "longest" at some point in time. But to summarize:
* When using GMaps, US 6 measures 9/10ths of a mile longer than US 20.
* When using mileages listed by the various state DOTs, US 6 comes out to be about 11 miles longer than US 20.
So at this point I'm quite certain that US 6 truly has re-surpassed US 20 as the longest route in the U.S. I would feel even more confident making that statement if I had official DOT mileages from three remaining states: PA, IL, and CO. It appears those three states do not post their statewide mileages online, and I have not been able to get a response after contacting them directly. So in the meantime, I have substituted the mileages for those three states that were listed in AASHTO's 1989 route log (after all, those were official DOT mileages, albeit from a long time ago). Obviously that is not the ideal solution, so if anyone has better luck than me with getting more current official mileages from any of those three DOTs, please let me know.
Do AASHTO or various DOTs religiously exclude anything that has been relinquished to the locals? For instance, did US-6 get shorter when the bit within Provincetown was relinquished? Would anyone feel like they had clinched US-6 if they drove as far as the Truro/P'town line and then turned around?
Since we are all interested in road history as well as road current conditions, I think most of us regard bits and pieces of roads that are dropped from official records due to obscure local decision making processes as an annoyance rather than something interesting or important.
For anyone who's interested, I used Google's My Maps editor, and some KML cutting and pasting, to create tracks for US-6 and US-20. These didn't include alternate routes, bypasses, or business routes, but did include pieces that have been relinquished in recent years, such as US-6 in P'town, and US-20 from Kenmore Sq to Arlington St in Boston. Opening them in Google Earth, right clicking and selecting Properties, it shows 3209 for US-6, and 2352+860=3212 for US-20. I expect that these numbers are quite accurate, because the level of detail in the curves for these tracks keeps them within the pavement in the aerial imagery.
Does anyone know how AASHTO measures distance, or how the DOTs that provide this info to AASHTO do it? Are they based on surveys down the middle of the road? Do they update the data when a rebuilt interchange replaces a loop with a flyover? What do they do when different directions have different lengths? (My measurements were all eastbound.)
I'm unclear about the situation in Yellowstone. Google, notorious for bogus route numberings, shows US-20 coming into the park from the east multiplexed with US-16 and US-14, and only US-20 continuing west past the north tip of the lake. It also shows US-89 and US-191 passing through the park, sometimes multiplexed together, and sometimes with US-20. I understand that US-20 never went through the park, but did any of these other routes ever go through the park, or did the Park Service always refuse to allow the fancy new US routes created back in the 20s or 30s into the park?
Quote from: pderocco on October 16, 2022, 07:44:54 PM
I'm unclear about the situation in Yellowstone. Google, notorious for bogus route numberings, shows US-20 coming into the park from the east multiplexed with US-16 and US-14, and only US-20 continuing west past the north tip of the lake. It also shows US-89 and US-191 passing through the park, sometimes multiplexed together, and sometimes with US-20. I understand that US-20 never went through the park, but did any of these other routes ever go through the park, or did the Park Service always refuse to allow the fancy new US routes created back in the 20s or 30s into the park?
The only US Route ever to be signed within the boundaries of Yellowstone National Park is US 191 in the Gallatin Mountains. There has never been a US Route signed on the Grand Loop Road in the heart of the park. Thusly US 20 has never been signed through Yellowstone.
This whole situation makes a lot more sense when you consider the original western terminus of US 20 was at the Yellowstone Park boundary.
Quote from: pderocco on October 16, 2022, 07:28:42 PM
Do AASHTO or various DOTs religiously exclude anything that has been relinquished to the locals? For instance, did US-6 get shorter when the bit within Provincetown was relinquished? Would anyone feel like they had clinched US-6 if they drove as far as the Truro/P'town line and then turned around?
It might vary by DOT or other transportation agency. In California, Caltrans insists that it can't legally treat relinquished route segments as part of the state highway system (fortunately, no Interstate or US route segments in California have been relinquished). Colorado DOT has sometimes been similarly fussy, and indeed got AASHTO approval to delete from US 6 some relinquished short segments of that route even though that technically made US 6 a discontinuous route. In Quebec, MTQ has relinquished route segments or even entire routes to local maintenance, but some of its online highway mapping treats them as still part of the "national" (i.e. provincial) highway system.
As Travel Mapping's maintainer for both California and Quebec, I greatly prefer MTQ's approach.
To me, a ferry isn't part of a route unless they bolt a sign to the deck railing.
Quote from: oscar on October 16, 2022, 07:56:57 PM
It might vary by DOT or other transportation agency. In California, Caltrans insists that it can't legally treat relinquished route segments as part of the state highway system (fortunately, no Interstate or US route segments in California have been relinquished). Colorado DOT has sometimes been similarly fussy, and indeed got AASHTO approval to delete from US 6 some relinquished short segments of that route even though that technically made US 6 a discontinuous route.
I don't understand the incentives here. What interest does Colorado DOT have in whether or not AASHTO includes or excludes that bit of US-6 in its big ledger in Washington? Or what interest does AASHTO have in what Colorado does? What's the real purpose of these designations?
Actually, I think we could use a thread on "What are route numbers for?"
Quote from: pderocco on October 16, 2022, 08:08:44 PM
Quote from: oscar on October 16, 2022, 07:56:57 PM
It might vary by DOT or other transportation agency. In California, Caltrans insists that it can't legally treat relinquished route segments as part of the state highway system (fortunately, no Interstate or US route segments in California have been relinquished). Colorado DOT has sometimes been similarly fussy, and indeed got AASHTO approval to delete from US 6 some relinquished short segments of that route even though that technically made US 6 a discontinuous route.
I don't understand the incentives here. What interest does Colorado DOT have in whether or not AASHTO includes or excludes that bit of US-6 in its big ledger in Washington? Or what interest does AASHTO have in what Colorado does? What's the real purpose of these designations?
Actually, I think we could use a thread on "What are route numbers for?"
At least with California (and I suspect Colorado with this instance) the answer is:
Designation and Signage = State Maintenance
My assumption is that Colorado doesn't want the prospect of AASHTO noting US 6 exists on a facility acting as a frontage to I-70 unless it is absolutely necessary. If US 6 was to be formally designated on a relinquished highway segment it might give a locality an argument for the state to take it back over formally.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 16, 2022, 08:06:23 PM
To me, a ferry isn't part of a route unless they bolt a sign to the deck railing.
The Wisconsin end of the S.S. Badger car ferry route has a US 10 route marker on the ramp used for vehicle boarding, and another painted on the ship above that ramp (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=23627.msg2355598#msg2355598). OTOH, there is an US 10 Ends marker well before the boarding area at the Michigan end, even though it joined Wisconsin's application to AASHTO (which was granted) to add the ferry route to US 10.
Quote from: pderocco on October 16, 2022, 08:08:44 PM
Quote from: oscar on October 16, 2022, 07:56:57 PM
It might vary by DOT or other transportation agency. In California, Caltrans insists that it can't legally treat relinquished route segments as part of the state highway system (fortunately, no Interstate or US route segments in California have been relinquished). Colorado DOT has sometimes been similarly fussy, and indeed got AASHTO approval to delete from US 6 some relinquished short segments of that route even though that technically made US 6 a discontinuous route.
I don't understand the incentives here. What interest does Colorado DOT have in whether or not AASHTO includes or excludes that bit of US-6 in its big ledger in Washington? Or what interest does AASHTO have in what Colorado does? What's the real purpose of these designations?
Actually, I think we could use a thread on "What are route numbers for?"
The "real purpose" of a designation varies a lot from state to state.
In some states (especially those with a history of political corruption), it is used for accounting. No state money can be spent on a road that doesn't have a state highway number. Thus no state highway number can exist on a road that isn't a state highway.
In other states, the route markers are for navigation. In these states, a route designation can exist on a road owned by absolutely anyone.
The FHWA/AASHTO ledger is basically "what do we have permission to sign as a national-level route". But not every state follows that 100%. Oklahoma has a stretch of US-377 that was congressionally legislated but AASHTO refused to approve. So the AASHTO ledger and federal law conflict, and Oklahoma's signage follows federal law.
Quote from: oscar on October 16, 2022, 08:23:30 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 16, 2022, 08:06:23 PM
To me, a ferry isn't part of a route unless they bolt a sign to the deck railing.
The Wisconsin end of the S.S. Badger car ferry route has a US 10 route marker on the ramp used for vehicle boarding, and another painted on the ship above that ramp (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=23627.msg2355598#msg2355598). OTOH, there is an US 10 Ends marker well before the boarding area at the Michigan end, even though it joined Wisconsin's application to AASHTO (which was granted) to add the ferry route to US 10.
Personally, I would interpret that as needing to proceed to that gate (on foot if need be) for clinching purposes. I probably wouldn't use the ferry for the sake of getting a clinch because, well, I'm in the hobby to look at roads and road signs, not boats. It might be nice to take the ferry for the sake of taking the ferry, but if my goal was to clinch US 10, I would consider it optional.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 16, 2022, 08:06:23 PM
To me, a ferry isn't part of a route unless they bolt a sign to the deck railing.
WSDOT sometimes places shields on the ferry docks (SR 160 at Southworth) and maintains the vessels, so they're very much part of the highway system.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faaroads.com%2Fshields%2Fimg%2FAR%2FAR19610091i1.jpg&hash=3e4589c5ae0c8b3cab5b7499bc838c07b5d3abff)
Not quite a highway shield on a ferry but this I thought was sufficient for CA 220:
https://flic.kr/p/Rsu3SN
Quote from: Quillz on October 17, 2022, 12:42:34 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faaroads.com%2Fshields%2Fimg%2FAR%2FAR19610091i1.jpg&hash=3e4589c5ae0c8b3cab5b7499bc838c07b5d3abff)
That's the exact image I had in mind when I posted that.
Quote from: oscar on October 16, 2022, 08:23:30 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 16, 2022, 08:06:23 PM
To me, a ferry isn't part of a route unless they bolt a sign to the deck railing.
The Wisconsin end of the S.S. Badger car ferry route has a US 10 route marker on the ramp used for vehicle boarding, and another painted on the ship above that ramp (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=23627.msg2355598#msg2355598). OTOH, there is an US 10 Ends marker well before the boarding area at the Michigan end, even though it joined Wisconsin's application to AASHTO (which was granted) to add the ferry route to US 10.
It's not that far from the boarding area, it's after Dowland Street which is the last street before the boarding area and the sign is real close to the Welcome to Michigan sign they are right across the street from each other.
Also another quibble about signing ferry routes: a big enough fleet might be rotated between various routes, so a fixed sign would do little good. WSF generally assigns certain boats to certain routes but will change them up for capacity balancing, maintenance, or prioritizing lifeline routes.
This discussion is the first I've heard that there's a gap in US 6. It's listed as continuous in TravelMapping. Where is the gap?
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 19, 2022, 07:43:42 AM
This discussion is the first I've heard that there's a gap in US 6. It's listed as continuous in TravelMapping. Where is the gap?
There's not really a gap. There's a one-mile segment of US 6 that Colorado DOT turned over to the city of Rifle for maintenance. It's still signposted as US 6, and it still is US 6, just maintained by the City instead of the State. Just like countless other segments of US highways (especially in the East) that are maintained by towns instead of by the state DOTs. But the weird thing about US 6 in Rifle is that for some reason CDOT felt it was necessary to inform AASHTO about it, and for some other inexplicable reason AASHTO approved it (instead of just saying "This is of no concern to us"). So now because it's in the AASHTO minutes, some have interpreted that to mean that US 6 has a discontinuity in Rifle.
Quote from: usends on October 19, 2022, 08:11:16 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 19, 2022, 07:43:42 AM
This discussion is the first I've heard that there's a gap in US 6. It's listed as continuous in TravelMapping. Where is the gap?
There's not really a gap. There's a one-mile segment of US 6 that Colorado DOT turned over to the city of Rifle for maintenance. It's still signposted as US 6, and it still is US 6, just maintained by the City instead of the State. Just like countless other segments of US highways (especially in the East) that are maintained by towns instead of by the state DOTs. But the weird thing about US 6 in Rifle is that for some reason CDOT felt it was necessary to inform AASHTO about it, and for some other inexplicable reason AASHTO approved it (instead of just saying "This is of no concern to us"). So now because it's in the AASHTO minutes, some have interpreted that to mean that US 6 has a discontinuity in Rifle.
OK, well that explains why it's still continuous in TM as they go by what is signed.
Colorado does not consider it contiguous in places.
EDIT: The above post mentioned it in much better detail.
Quote from: usends on October 19, 2022, 08:11:16 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 19, 2022, 07:43:42 AM
This discussion is the first I've heard that there's a gap in US 6. It's listed as continuous in TravelMapping. Where is the gap?
There's not really a gap. There's a one-mile segment of US 6 that Colorado DOT turned over to the city of Rifle for maintenance. It's still signposted as US 6, and it still is US 6, just maintained by the City instead of the State. Just like countless other segments of US highways (especially in the East) that are maintained by towns instead of by the state DOTs. But the weird thing about US 6 in Rifle is that for some reason CDOT felt it was necessary to inform AASHTO about it, and for some other inexplicable reason AASHTO approved it (instead of just saying "This is of no concern to us"). So now because it's in the AASHTO minutes, some have interpreted that to mean that US 6 has a discontinuity in Rifle.
The real US route incongruity in Colorado is US85 in Colorado Springs.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 19, 2022, 08:23:26 AM
Quote from: usends on October 19, 2022, 08:11:16 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 19, 2022, 07:43:42 AM
This discussion is the first I've heard that there's a gap in US 6. It's listed as continuous in TravelMapping. Where is the gap?
There's not really a gap. There's a one-mile segment of US 6 that Colorado DOT turned over to the city of Rifle for maintenance. It's still signposted as US 6, and it still is US 6, just maintained by the City instead of the State. Just like countless other segments of US highways (especially in the East) that are maintained by towns instead of by the state DOTs. But the weird thing about US 6 in Rifle is that for some reason CDOT felt it was necessary to inform AASHTO about it, and for some other inexplicable reason AASHTO approved it (instead of just saying "This is of no concern to us"). So now because it's in the AASHTO minutes, some have interpreted that to mean that US 6 has a discontinuity in Rifle.
OK, well that explains why it's still continuous in TM as they go by what is signed.
As the CO TM maintainer, I've used a combination of what's signed, what's legislatively the route for CDOT, and the AASHTO minutes to route the US routes through the state. It'd make my life a lot easier if CDOT didn't consider them a bunch of discontinuous segments! (lowkey if I was ever elected President the first executive order I'd sign would be to force Colorado to recognize US/Interstate concurrencies)
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2022, 05:02:30 PM
The real US route incongruity in Colorado is US85 in Colorado Springs.
There's that, and if you look at OTIS US 24 does the same thing over by Kansas... CDOT has it following the service road along I-70 and KDOT has it following I-70, so to truly clinch US 24, one must drive east from Burlington along the service road, turn right at the state line, drive off the Free Coffee (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3298351,-102.0490108,3a,25.3y,128.24h,96.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s31HXJ524bImySf5Oczkz_Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) bridge, and land on I-70 EB in Kansas. :pan:
Needless to say, we at TM have simplified the unsigned/badly signed/stupid incorrect END sign portions of the US routes through Colorado so it's as painless as possible for the general roadgeeking public to track their travels in the Rocky Mountain High state.
Quote from: usends on October 19, 2022, 08:11:16 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 19, 2022, 07:43:42 AM
This discussion is the first I've heard that there's a gap in US 6. It's listed as continuous in TravelMapping. Where is the gap?
There's not really a gap. There's a one-mile segment of US 6 that Colorado DOT turned over to the city of Rifle for maintenance. It's still signposted as US 6, and it still is US 6, just maintained by the City instead of the State. Just like countless other segments of US highways (especially in the East) that are maintained by towns instead of by the state DOTs. But the weird thing about US 6 in Rifle is that for some reason CDOT felt it was necessary to inform AASHTO about it, and for some other inexplicable reason AASHTO approved it (instead of just saying "This is of no concern to us"). So now because it's in the AASHTO minutes, some have interpreted that to mean that US 6 has a discontinuity in Rifle.
I always feel like asking Dale is like asking God directly.
Quote from: SD Mapman on October 19, 2022, 11:23:19 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 19, 2022, 08:23:26 AM
Quote from: usends on October 19, 2022, 08:11:16 AM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 19, 2022, 07:43:42 AM
This discussion is the first I've heard that there's a gap in US 6. It's listed as continuous in TravelMapping. Where is the gap?
There's not really a gap. There's a one-mile segment of US 6 that Colorado DOT turned over to the city of Rifle for maintenance. It's still signposted as US 6, and it still is US 6, just maintained by the City instead of the State. Just like countless other segments of US highways (especially in the East) that are maintained by towns instead of by the state DOTs. But the weird thing about US 6 in Rifle is that for some reason CDOT felt it was necessary to inform AASHTO about it, and for some other inexplicable reason AASHTO approved it (instead of just saying "This is of no concern to us"). So now because it's in the AASHTO minutes, some have interpreted that to mean that US 6 has a discontinuity in Rifle.
OK, well that explains why it's still continuous in TM as they go by what is signed.
As the CO TM maintainer, I've used a combination of what's signed, what's legislatively the route for CDOT, and the AASHTO minutes to route the US routes through the state. It'd make my life a lot easier if CDOT didn't consider them a bunch of discontinuous segments! (lowkey if I was ever elected President the first executive order I'd sign would be to force Colorado to recognize US/Interstate concurrencies)
Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2022, 05:02:30 PM
The real US route incongruity in Colorado is US85 in Colorado Springs.
There's that, and if you look at OTIS US 24 does the same thing over by Kansas... CDOT has it following the service road along I-70 and KDOT has it following I-70, so to truly clinch US 24, one must drive east from Burlington along the service road, turn right at the state line, drive off the Free Coffee (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3298351,-102.0490108,3a,25.3y,128.24h,96.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s31HXJ524bImySf5Oczkz_Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) bridge, and land on I-70 EB in Kansas. :pan:
Needless to say, we at TM have simplified the unsigned/badly signed/stupid incorrect END sign portions of the US routes through Colorado so it's as painless as possible for the general roadgeeking public to track their travels in the Rocky Mountain High state.
The hero we deserve...
Quote from: SD Mapman on October 19, 2022, 11:23:19 PM
if I was ever elected President the first executive order I'd sign would be to force Colorado to recognize US/Interstate concurrencies
It would probably be difficult to convince the Party that that's a good issue to campaign on.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2022, 12:27:21 PM
Quote from: SD Mapman on October 19, 2022, 11:23:19 PM
if I was ever elected President the first executive order I'd sign would be to force Colorado to recognize US/Interstate concurrencies
It would probably be difficult to convince the Party that that's a good issue to campaign on.
That's why it's an executive order. All you have to do is get elected President, go off script and go after AASHTO Route log discrepancies on day 1. Who cares what your party think, what they don't know can't hurt them?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 20, 2022, 12:30:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2022, 12:27:21 PM
Quote from: SD Mapman on October 19, 2022, 11:23:19 PM
if I was ever elected President the first executive order I'd sign would be to force Colorado to recognize US/Interstate concurrencies
It would probably be difficult to convince the Party that that's a good issue to campaign on.
That's why it's an executive order. All you have to do is get elected President, go off script and go after AASHTO Route log discrepancies on day 1. Who cares what your party think, what they don't know can't hurt them?
Exactly!
Quote from: SD Mapman on October 20, 2022, 09:37:51 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 20, 2022, 12:30:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2022, 12:27:21 PM
Quote from: SD Mapman on October 19, 2022, 11:23:19 PM
if I was ever elected President the first executive order I'd sign would be to force Colorado to recognize US/Interstate concurrencies
It would probably be difficult to convince the Party that that's a good issue to campaign on.
That's why it's an executive order. All you have to do is get elected President, go off script and go after AASHTO Route log discrepancies on day 1. Who cares what your party think, what they don't know can't hurt them?
Exactly!
Given that the roads themselves are owned by the state (and AASHTO is an association of the states), you would probably need to be Governor of Colorado, not President, to make that happen.
I may have fantasized about being Governor of Oklahoma to executive-order the hell out of ODOT once or twice or seventeen hundred ninety-two times.
Call it a matter of interstate commerce...