Proposed US 412 Upgrade

[J N Winkler]

Not true–there is an at-grade intersection between the end of the Cimarron Turnpike and I-244 that will be awkward and expensive to either close or grade-separate.

Where is this?  I was under the impression it was 100% grade-separated and in Google Maps I'm not seeing any flat intersections, though there are plenty of hook ramps between Sand Springs and the eastern end of the turnpike.

At Diamond Head Drive just northwest of OK 151: https://goo.gl/maps/sqLik77GpoY8Hke18

Many thanks!  It was sort of fading out at high zoom levels.

[Scott5114]

...the old LYIS-style median....

Not going to lie, I was hoping that term would catch on.

[kphoger]

Not true–there is an at-grade intersection between the end of the Cimarron Turnpike and I-244 that will be awkward and expensive to either close or grade-separate.

Where is this?  I was under the impression it was 100% grade-separated and in Google Maps I'm not seeing any flat intersections, though there are plenty of hook ramps between Sand Springs and the eastern end of the turnpike.

At Diamond Head Drive just northwest of OK 151: https://goo.gl/maps/sqLik77GpoY8Hke18

Many thanks!  It was sort of fading out at high zoom levels.

Yep, we've had this conversation before, although only briefly, and I don't know if you read it back then.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21261.msg2270215#msg2270215

Portions of I-44 had a cable barrier installed just a few years ago, but that was only as a replacement for the old LYIS-style median.  "Better than terrible" does not equal "meets modern Interstate standard".

That is true, but I wouldn't imagine they would restrict interstate designation for cable barrier. But I agree, concrete barrier is much more preferably from a safety standpoint.

With a concrete barrier, would there be enough of a left shoulder to meet modern Interstate standards, though?

[Plutonic Panda]

What is the name of the guards they use in Germany in the medians of the autobahns? I wish Oklahoma would use those. I've really grown to dislike cable barriers although I'd prefer those over nothing.

[J N Winkler]

[Re. at-level crossing on Sand Springs Expressway]

Yep, we've had this conversation before, although only briefly, and I don't know if you read it back then.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21261.msg2270215#msg2270215

Thanks--I didn't see it at the time since I rarely go into Fictional Highways.

With a concrete barrier, would there be enough of a left shoulder to meet modern Interstate standards, though?

Yes.  Minimum width for a left shoulder on an Interstate is 4 ft, and a Jersey barrier is nominally 2 ft wide.  This means the Cimarron Turnpike needs a minimum of 10 ft between the left stripes on each carriageway.  It generally has 15 ft or so.

What is the name of the guards they use in Germany in the medians of the autobahns? I wish Oklahoma would use those. I've really grown to dislike cable barriers although I'd prefer those over nothing.

There are a bunch of terms, with Schutzeinrichtungen ("safety devices") being an umbrella term that is used in advertisements for guardrail replacement contracts.  (Outside the highway context, the same term is used for equipment guards, machine enclosures, and so on.)  The Germans are a bit like us in that they don't use one single thing everywhere--they have local equivalents of Jersey barrier, thrie beam barrier, W-beam barrier, and so on.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ I prefer those because if you barely hit a cable barrier with your car you're done. There's no recovering. At least with a jersey or w beam barrier there's a chance it'll nudge you over and you can recover.

[Bobby5280]

Considering it was done on I-44 south of Lawton, I would imagine it suffices.

It's a joke you're mentioning that stretch of I-44, right? The turnpike segments of I-44 from Medicine Park (north of Fort Sill) all the way to the Missouri border were given new concrete Jersey barriers in the mid 1990's. That was shortly after several people were killed in a high speed, head-on, multi-vehicle collision near Elgin. The rest of I-44 South of Lawton was neglected for nearly 20 years before they finally installed a cable barrier which runs half the cost of a traditional concrete Jersey barrier.

Prior to the median barriers collisions were easy. There was no inner left shoulder for the left lane; the grassy median went right to the edge of the travel lane. The median itself was a thin bump of grass no more than a car lane in width. If someone had a brain fart and over-corrected it would have been nothing to hop that median into oncoming traffic going 75mph+ the opposite direction.

Other fatality accidents have happened on that stretch of I-44 South of Lawton in from the late 1990's into the 2010's, but apparently not enough deaths have happened to force the OTA to move the time line up on any improvements. The Walters exit on I-44 is horribly degraded. I hate driving on the OK-5 bridge that goes over that ancient toll booth out of fear my vehicle will drop through the crumbing pavement. That whole damned interchange needs to be fully replaced but the OTA has been continually delaying any improvements or replacements of many years on end. They're basically giving a big middle finger to this part of the state.

[Road Hog]

Most rural autobahns used POGRs when I was there in the 90s.

(Plain Old Guard Rails)

[DJStephens]

Considering it was done on I-44 south of Lawton, I would imagine it suffices.

It's a joke you're mentioning that stretch of I-44, right? The turnpike segments of I-44 from Medicine Park (north of Fort Sill) all the way to the Missouri border were given new concrete Jersey barriers in the mid 1990's. That was shortly after several people were killed in a high speed, head-on, multi-vehicle collision near Elgin. The rest of I-44 South of Lawton was neglected for nearly 20 years before they finally installed a cable barrier which runs half the cost of a traditional concrete Jersey barrier.

Prior to the median barriers collisions were easy. There was no inner left shoulder for the left lane; the grassy median went right to the edge of the travel lane. The median itself was a thin bump of grass no more than a car lane in width. If someone had a brain fart and over-corrected it would have been nothing to hop that median into oncoming traffic going 75mph+ the opposite direction.

Other fatality accidents have happened on that stretch of I-44 South of Lawton in from the late 1990's into the 2010's, but apparently not enough deaths have happened to force the OTA to move the time line up on any improvements. The Walters exit on I-44 is horribly degraded. I hate driving on the OK-5 bridge that goes over that ancient toll booth out of fear my vehicle will drop through the crumbing pavement. That whole damned interchange needs to be fully replaced but the OTA has been continually delaying any improvements or replacements of many years on end. They're basically giving a big middle finger to this part of the state.

With all the toll revenue, one could figure that the entire stretch of I-44 could have been completely  reconstructed by now.   (Rogers / Turner / Bailey).  By reconstructed, meaning six lanes, three on each side, built almost completely outside the current narrow four lane footprint.  Vertical curvature improvements, deepen cuts, add to fills.  Full outside and inside shoulders.   Cable barrier outside inner shoulder.  100'-125' foot grassed median.  New interchanges to reflect modern collection methods - EZ PASS etc.   

[sprjus4]

With all the toll revenue, one could figure that the entire stretch of I-44 could have been completely  reconstructed by now.   (Rogers / Turner / Bailey).  By reconstructed, meaning six lanes, three on each side, built almost completely outside the current narrow four lane footprint.  Vertical curvature improvements, deepen cuts, add to fills.  Full outside and inside shoulders.   Cable barrier outside inner shoulder.  100'-125' foot grassed median.  New interchanges to reflect modern collection methods - EZ PASS etc.

At that point, you're basically just building a new highway for all of the roadways. Not all of the routes need 6 lanes... granted a number of them do such as I-44 between Oklahoma City and Tulsa, and there's no need to add a 100 foot median. Proper median upgrades such as full paved shoulders and a concrete barrier is plenty sufficient and far cheaper and a better spending of limited dollars... yes it may be tolled, but that doesn't mean there's unlimited money.

[DJStephens]

With all the toll revenue, one could figure that the entire stretch of I-44 could have been completely  reconstructed by now.   (Rogers / Turner / Bailey).  By reconstructed, meaning six lanes, three on each side, built almost completely outside the current narrow four lane footprint.  Vertical curvature improvements, deepen cuts, add to fills.  Full outside and inside shoulders.   Cable barrier outside inner shoulder.  100'-125' foot grassed median.  New interchanges to reflect modern collection methods - EZ PASS etc.

At that point, you're basically just building a new highway for all of the roadways. Not all of the routes need 6 lanes... granted a number of them do such as I-44 between Oklahoma City and Tulsa, and there's no need to add a 100 foot median. Proper median upgrades such as full paved shoulders and a concrete barrier is plenty sufficient and far cheaper and a better spending of limited dollars... yes it may be tolled, but that doesn't mean there's unlimited money.

The facility (I-44) is ancient.  Authorized and largely constructed before the 1956 Federal Interstate creation.   Adheres to then used methodology of narrow footprint, excessive vertical curvature and other deficiencies.  Yes some of them have been "fixed", mainly installation of CBR in the narrow median in the nineties.   By observation, outside of OKC and Tulsa, there is significant ROW in many places, to construct new mainlines to the outside.   This process could, and should have started in the eighties.   

[Bobby5280]

With both its turnpikes and gasoline tax funded roads Oklahoma just seems to try to do as little as possible. Improvements, such as those concrete Jersey barriers on I-44, seem to be more reactions to disaster than doing anything to prevent problems. The Access Oklahoma plan is one of the few times I've seen an attempt to do something proactive. Of course the plan is meeting up with lots of resistance.

I think it's telling where improvements are taking place and where they're not happening at all. There's obviously some favoritism to Tulsa with the Turner Turnpike 3x3 widening project starting on the Tulsa end and slowly working its way back toward OKC.

ODOT and OTA have their hands tied with a problem created over the long term by the state's lawmakers. They've set the policy of trying to do everything on the cheap. Lawmakers have done absolutely nothing to refute the common, ill-informed beliefs of Oklahomans about the roads. The big one is "the turnpikes are paid for, so remove the toll gates." I don't even know why so many people here cling to that belief, because it's pretty stupid when you think about it just a little bit. "The turnpike is paid for" assumes that a highway is permanent, that once it's built nothing has to be done to the facility ever again. Maintenance for wear and tear? Design Improvements? Capacity Improvements? What are those? Most home owners understand they'll have to replace the roof once every 20-30 years (or after a bad hail storm). They ignore the issue of upkeep when it comes to those turnpikes.

There has been a bunch of heartburn in the public about the OTA's Pay By Plate fees on turnpikes that have gone cashless. The rates are almost double the PikePass rate. OTA reps have told the press a lot of extra work goes into a Pay By Plate setup. I think even if a Pay By Plate setup was easy to operate OTA should still charge a hefty fee for it. It's an incentive for procrastinators to stop dragging their feet and get a friggin' PikePass already.

With Oklahoma's history of keeping gasoline taxes at minimum levels I warn friends of mine who hate the turnpike tollgates. I tell them don't be surprised if you start seeing toll tag readers get installed on regular highways and street corners everywhere. Gasoline tax rates aren't keeping up with construction cost inflation. The only thing that might help in the short term is sky high gasoline prices are forcing people to drive less.

[US71]

Bugo, I should have known you would still have the bumper sticker!

I don't actually have the bumper sticker. I found this image on the internet about 10 or 15 years ago, and I saved it. I did think about getting a T shirt like this printed, though.

Cafe Press

[vdeane]

I think even if a Pay By Plate setup was easy to operate OTA should still charge a hefty fee for it. It's an incentive for procrastinators to stop dragging their feet and get a friggin' PikePass already.

What about people who are from out of the area?  I'm not sure if or when PikePass will be interoperable with further away transponders like E-ZPass, and then there are those from states without toll roads that wouldn't have regular need for a transponder.

[Scott5114]

I think even if a Pay By Plate setup was easy to operate OTA should still charge a hefty fee for it. It's an incentive for procrastinators to stop dragging their feet and get a friggin' PikePass already.

What about people who are from out of the area?  I'm not sure if or when PikePass will be interoperable with further away transponders like E-ZPass, and then there are those from states without toll roads that wouldn't have regular need for a transponder.

Oklahoma doesn't even care about the people who live here, what makes you think they'd care about people who don't?

[Bobby5280]

What about people who are from out of the area?

Every toll road agency outside Oklahoma charges quite a lot more for pay by plate billing than their RFID tag price. Why should Oklahoma be held to a different standard?

OTA's PikePass is interoperable with all Texas toll road tag systems now as well as Kansas' KTAG system. Motorists could get any one of those tags and be covered across Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas. It's very easy to get a PikePass tag. I don't know if it's any easier or harder to get a similar tag in Texas or Kansas.

It's also fairly common for people who drive long distance frequently to have more than one RFID tag in their vehicle, be a sales guy driving a car or a trucker driving a semi.

[Plutonic Panda]

OTA really needs to get on the ball with the interoperability. Texas, Colorado, and Kansas are cool but they need to make it nationwide.

[Bobby5280]

The people who run the other RFID tag systems, such as EZ Pass, need to contribute just as much effort on nationwide interoperability. Oklahoma shouldn't have to shoulder all of the burden.

Technically all these different toll road systems should have had interoperable tags nationwide several years ago to comply with federal legislation passed a decade ago.

[vdeane]

What about people who are from out of the area?

Every toll road agency outside Oklahoma charges quite a lot more for pay by plate billing than their RFID tag price. Why should Oklahoma be held to a different standard?

OTA's PikePass is interoperable with all Texas toll road tag systems now as well as Kansas' KTAG system. Motorists could get any one of those tags and be covered across Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas. It's very easy to get a PikePass tag. I don't know if it's any easier or harder to get a similar tag in Texas or Kansas.

It's also fairly common for people who drive long distance frequently to have more than one RFID tag in their vehicle, be a sales guy driving a car or a trucker driving a semi.

Well, you specifically said to incentivize getting PikePass, and I don't think someone from far away taking a one-off trip to a roadmeet or something is going to get PikePass no matter how high the toll gets.

[swake]

I think it's telling where improvements are taking place and where they're not happening at all. There's obviously some favoritism to Tulsa with the Turner Turnpike 3x3 widening project starting on the Tulsa end and slowly working its way back toward OKC.eeping up with construction cost inflation. The only thing that might help in the short term is sky high gasoline prices are forcing people to drive less.

Or maybe the reason is the Tulsa end of the turnpike carries more traffic?

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/average-daily-traffic/2021/Turner%20ADT%202021.pdf

If you want to know why the turnpike south of Lawton doesn't have the greatest maintenance? Also due to traffic counts:

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/average-daily-traffic/2021/H.E.Bailey%20ADT%202021.pdf

The favoritism you claim Tulsa is getting with new Turnpike work would actually be in the OKC area. This turnpike had no business even being constructed:

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/average-daily-traffic/2021/Kickapoo%20ADT%202021.pdf

[edwaleni]

The people who run the other RFID tag systems, such as EZ Pass, need to contribute just as much effort on nationwide interoperability. Oklahoma shouldn't have to shoulder all of the burden.

Technically all these different toll road systems should have had interoperable tags nationwide several years ago to comply with federal legislation passed a decade ago.

Fortunately I know someone who works in a toll authority and has some level of understanding of how these interactions work.

- First off some states are all about sovereignty. The right to drive and own a vehicle is a state affair, they do not want other states collecting info/data on their drivers.
- Second, the data exchange rates for the states that do cooperate are not all the same. Some states want exorbitant fees to get DMV data from out of state requestors.
- Third, some states have laws that require a legal action take place before a DMV can be compelled to release plate/registration data. That is why some states let the violations pile up until it meets a minimum legal standard (ie: $500)
- Fourth, each state has different laws about data retention. Once they export DMV data to another state, they no longer have jurisdiction over that data unless the exchanging state has an agreement to purge it at their levels.

Some states do not have the time or resources to want to manage a typical traffic stop and have a flag on the officers display saying the driver has an unpaid toll in Texas. In Pennsylvania, they would say that is a civil issue in the State of Texas.  However, in Illinois...if you rack up more than $500 in unpaid tolls with an out of state plate, it does go to the States Attorney office and the DMV data is acquired, they will post a violation for a misdemeanor and send a court demand. If you don't show, they will notify the state of the plate that there is an outstanding warrant.

[Scott5114]

I'm pretty sure at this point the only way to break the interoperability logjam is if FHWA starts their own toll tag and Congress mandates that all toll highways accept it.

In practical terms, I don't really feel like I miss out on much not having EZPass interop on my PikePass. I barely use it in KS or TX as it is, and if I were to do extensive traveling in EZPassland, chances are I would be in a rental and not my own car anyway.

[Bobby5280]

If you want to know why the turnpike south of Lawton doesn't have the greatest maintenance? Also due to traffic counts:

Traffic counts DO NOT give OTA or ODOT any excuse for ignoring basic safety issues in Southwest Oklahoma for decades, particularly that stretch of I-44 going from Lawton to the Red River.

Also, my charge of favoritism for Tulsa still stands. Why didn't they start the 3x3 widening project on the OKC end of the Turner Turnpike. Far more people live in the OKC metro than Tulsa. OKC is a more important highway hub than Tulsa.

[sprjus4]

^ "Highway hub"  and population is not a factor... it's the traffic volumes on a given facility.

I think it's telling where improvements are taking place and where they're not happening at all. There's obviously some favoritism to Tulsa with the Turner Turnpike 3x3 widening project starting on the Tulsa end and slowly working its way back toward OKC.eeping up with construction cost inflation. The only thing that might help in the short term is sky high gasoline prices are forcing people to drive less.

Or maybe the reason is the Tulsa end of the turnpike carries more traffic?

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/average-daily-traffic/2021/Turner%20ADT%202021.pdf

If you want to know why the turnpike south of Lawton doesn't have the greatest maintenance? Also due to traffic counts:

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/average-daily-traffic/2021/H.E.Bailey%20ADT%202021.pdf

The favoritism you claim Tulsa is getting with new Turnpike work would actually be in the OKC area. This turnpike had no business even being constructed:

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/ota/documents/average-daily-traffic/2021/Kickapoo%20ADT%202021.pdf

[Scott5114]

Stitt being from Tulsa doesn't hurt either.