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Should the US abide by the Convention on Road Signs and Signals?

Started by skluth, November 02, 2022, 11:38:17 AM

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kphoger

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 11:41:02 AM

Quote from: kalvado on November 02, 2022, 07:12:24 PM
And one cup is 250 ml, one tablespoon is 15 ml

How is that useful?  My glass (liquid) measuring cups would be useless for measuring either one of those.

Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 11:58:41 AM
1 US cup is 237 or 240 ml, depending on who you ask. Euro cup is 240-250 ml as far as I know. Really within the accuracy of kitchen equipment.
1 US tsp = 4.93 ml, 5 ml in europe. 1.5% is nothing really.

Ah geez, what was I thinking when I said it would be useless for measuring 250 ml?  Yes, of course that would be easy.  But what about 15 ml or 5 ml?  How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?

And, even if there's an answer, what would be the benefit to switching?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.


kalvado

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 11:59:29 AM
No, it wouldn't be inedible.  It might be slightly more or less thick, which might be slightly better or worse, depending on your taste.  But my point is that it wouldn't be the same.  My point is that there's more involved in the metrification of recipes than just mathematical conversions.  The results will be slightly different–maybe noticeably, maybe not, depending on the recipe.
I bet if two of us get into the same kitchen and cook the same recipe using same equipment, result will be a bit different as well.

I always wonder how recipes are developed. One can cook same thing using 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, 1.9, and 2 cups of... sauce, or whatever. Say your sweet spot is between 1.6 and 1.7, but  1.5 is still pretty good - and your kids actually like 1.5 more. What you're putting in the text? My bet 1 1/2 would go to print to keep it simple. Commercial recipe may call for 375 grams, though, not being simple fraction of your cup....

kphoger

Should this thread be moved to Traffic Control, by the way, considering it is [supposed to be] about signs and signals?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kalvado

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 11:41:02 AM

Quote from: kalvado on November 02, 2022, 07:12:24 PM
And one cup is 250 ml, one tablespoon is 15 ml

How is that useful?  My glass (liquid) measuring cups would be useless for measuring either one of those.

Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 11:58:41 AM
1 US cup is 237 or 240 ml, depending on who you ask. Euro cup is 240-250 ml as far as I know. Really within the accuracy of kitchen equipment.
1 US tsp = 4.93 ml, 5 ml in europe. 1.5% is nothing really.

Ah geez, what was I thinking when I said it would be useless for measuring 250 ml?  Yes, of course that would be easy.  But what about 15 ml or 5 ml?  How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?

And, even if there's an answer, what would be the benefit to switching?
Both systems are refined by decades of use, so no direct benefit for you right away. And if there would be no globalization, each system would be just fine within its domain. I cook ml, you cook cups, both are happy.
Once you start talking global trade, though... If your inch-designed airplane gets metric-produced parts contracted... well, there were actual situations like that that mage headlines - and I don't know how many of them didn't.

skluth

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:11:31 PM
Should this thread be moved to Traffic Control, by the way, considering it is [supposed to be] about signs and signals?

I'd be fine with that. It's not a thread group I tend to follow so I didn't think of using it when I created this thread. Mods, feel free to move this thread to Traffic Control.

Scott5114

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
Ah geez, what was I thinking when I said it would be useless for measuring 250 ml?  Yes, of course that would be easy.  But what about 15 ml or 5 ml?  How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?

And, even if there's an answer, what would be the benefit to switching?

Based on half-remembered Food Network shows, I believe many dry ingredients we measure by volume they measure by weight over there. So you wouldn't measure out a cup of brown sugar, you'd measure out so many grams of it. Measuring by weight is generally more accurate because grams are fairly small, so they're precise, and if you're using a digital scale it's much easier to hit an exact number like 375 g than it is to get an accurate volume measure by eyeballing mL lines.

I am not sure if the same is true of liquid measures. I suppose there's no real reason you couldn't weigh out so many grams of milk.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

hotdogPi

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2022, 12:24:13 PM
I am not sure if the same is true of liquid measures. I suppose there's no real reason you couldn't weigh out so many grams of milk.

Most objects that come from living things have a density similar to water (1 g = 1 mL), but within a 20% range (e.g. wood is on the lower end, about 0.85). I seem to remember milk being about 1.1.




I posted this but then immediately deleted it because this discussion isn't actually on topic to the intended purpose of this thread: we already use the metric system for small amounts, like grams in nutrition labels and medications and 0.5/0.7/0.9 mm pencil leads.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 03, 2022, 12:24:13 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
Ah geez, what was I thinking when I said it would be useless for measuring 250 ml?  Yes, of course that would be easy.  But what about 15 ml or 5 ml?  How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?

And, even if there's an answer, what would be the benefit to switching?

Based on half-remembered Food Network shows, I believe many dry ingredients we measure by volume they measure by weight over there. So you wouldn't measure out a cup of brown sugar, you'd measure out so many grams of it. Measuring by weight is generally more accurate because grams are fairly small, so they're precise, and if you're using a digital scale it's much easier to hit an exact number like 375 g than it is to get an accurate volume measure by eyeballing mL lines.

I am not sure if the same is true of liquid measures. I suppose there's no real reason you couldn't weigh out so many grams of milk.

I know that already.  But a scale, even a digital scale, is worthless when it comes to measuring, say, a quarter-teaspoon of ground cloves.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

1995hoo

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 06:15:17 PM
Quote from: skluth on November 02, 2022, 06:09:53 PM
It's already in place with liquid measurements; 2 cups in 1 pint, 2 pints in a quart, 4 quarts in a gallon.

And I have to look those damn things up every time I need to do something with those too.

That's the real problem–I deal with units of measure so infrequently I never remember which hairbrained numbering scheme which units follow!

What confuses me is when a recipe calls for a unit that does not match the units in which things are sold at the store–for example, x cups of cream, or y cups of milk, or whatever. I sometimes pull out my phone and ask Siri to convert units so that I can buy the right size package of something in that situation, as I have no clue how most American units relate to each other. (The main thing is that I don't want to buy too large a package and then waste money when the leftover portion spoils.)

I also have a "Kitchen Calculator" app that does conversions, but most of the time at the store it's easier to ask Siri unless I'm at a store with bad cellular data service (Whole Foods in Alexandria comes to mind). I use the app more when I'm at home. As has been mentioned, weighing ingredients in grams is more precise, so when I want to use our kitchen scale I generally use the kitchen calculator app to convert the units to grams. Because so many American recipes use volume even for dry ingredients, when you want to convert volume to weight the app asks you what ingredient it is.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

kphoger

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 03, 2022, 12:45:28 PM
What confuses me is when a recipe calls for a unit that does not match the units in which things are sold at the store–for example, x cups of cream, or y cups of milk, or whatever.

Yes.  If the recipe calls for two cups of tomato purée, and the store has 10.75-ounce cans, then who the heck knows–without googling it–if you need to buy one can or two?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kalvado

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 03, 2022, 12:45:28 PM
What confuses me is when a recipe calls for a unit that does not match the units in which things are sold at the store–for example, x cups of cream, or y cups of milk, or whatever.

Yes.  If the recipe calls for two cups of tomato purée, and the store has 10.75-ounce cans, then who the heck knows–without googling it–if you need to buy one can or two?
11 ounces is about 300 ml, so you need 2 to fill 2 x 240 ml cups

GaryV

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
But what about 15 ml or 5 ml?  How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?

Amazon sells measuring spoon sets with both US and Metric measurements:
https://www.amazon.com/Measuring-Stainless-Tablespoon-Measurements-Ingredients/dp/B07H3QRCZD?th=1

I'm sure in Europe and elsewhere they sell measuring spoons in metric.

kphoger

Of the things I actually measure (whether precisely or estimating) in my everyday life on a regular basis...

Long distances:  The road system here is based on the mile.  If I want to know how far it is to ride my bike from, say, 45th/Woodlawn to 13th/Rock, then I can do that in my head.  All I have to do is count the major intersections.  Woodlawn to Rock, 1 mile.  45th to 37th, 2 miles.  37th to 29th, 3 miles.  29th to 21st, 4 miles.  21st to 13th, 5 miles.  Done.  Convert to metric, and I can no longer do this near as easily.  Similarly, if I'm driving out in the boonies and the rural roads are numbered in the 10s every mile, and I'm looking for 70th, and I'm currently at 40th, then I know I have three miles to go.  Convert to metric, and I can no longer do this near as easily.

Short distances:  If I'm using a ruler or tape measure, then I'm generally measuring something around the house.  A piece of furniture to see if it will fit somewhere, a piece of lumber to cut it, a piece of paper to cut it or draw on it.  In these cases, neither US Customary nor metric necessarily has a clear advantage.  It all depends.  The other day, I was dividing an 8½x11 sheet of paper into sevenths, and metric worked great for the long way (28 cm / 7 = 4 cm each square).  In contrast, I find the larger size of inches to be more useful when rearranging furniture.

Kitchen measurements:  As I've said, US Customary units work well for measuring volume, especially when the measurements are small.  My kitchen is not a commercial kitchen, after all.  In contrast, I can't think of any kitchen measurement for which metric has a clear advantage.  Switching between volume and weight is cumbersome, but that would be an issue with metric as well.  The issue of volume vs weight isn't the issue as US Customary vs metric.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kphoger

Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 01:18:12 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:02:49 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 03, 2022, 12:45:28 PM
What confuses me is when a recipe calls for a unit that does not match the units in which things are sold at the store–for example, x cups of cream, or y cups of milk, or whatever.

Yes.  If the recipe calls for two cups of tomato purée, and the store has 10.75-ounce cans, then who the heck knows–without googling it–if you need to buy one can or two?

11 ounces is about 300 ml, so you need 2 to fill 2 x 240 ml cups

As I said, who the heck knows?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kphoger

Quote from: GaryV on November 03, 2022, 01:24:07 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
But what about 15 ml or 5 ml?  How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?

Amazon sells measuring spoon sets with both US and Metric measurements:
https://www.amazon.com/Measuring-Stainless-Tablespoon-Measurements-Ingredients/dp/B07H3QRCZD?th=1

I'm sure in Europe and elsewhere they sell measuring spoons in metric.

But my question is this:  Is that how people in Europe actually measure small amounts?  Or do they use non-metric units?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

GaryV

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:29:48 PM
Quote from: GaryV on November 03, 2022, 01:24:07 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
But what about 15 ml or 5 ml?  How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?

Amazon sells measuring spoon sets with both US and Metric measurements:
https://www.amazon.com/Measuring-Stainless-Tablespoon-Measurements-Ingredients/dp/B07H3QRCZD?th=1

I'm sure in Europe and elsewhere they sell measuring spoons in metric.

But my question is this:  Is that how people in Europe actually measure small amounts?  Or do they use non-metric units?

I'm sure they have a 10ml spoon, 5ml spoon, a 2ml spoon, etc. Or whatever are the common sizes.

kalvado

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 01:18:12 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:02:49 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 03, 2022, 12:45:28 PM
What confuses me is when a recipe calls for a unit that does not match the units in which things are sold at the store–for example, x cups of cream, or y cups of milk, or whatever.

Yes.  If the recipe calls for two cups of tomato purée, and the store has 10.75-ounce cans, then who the heck knows–without googling it–if you need to buy one can or two?

11 ounces is about 300 ml, so you need 2 to fill 2 x 240 ml cups

As I said, who the heck knows?
1. I do, for example.
2. Can you compare a can in your hand to your usual coffee mug?

kalvado

Quote from: GaryV on November 03, 2022, 01:33:23 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 01:29:48 PM
Quote from: GaryV on November 03, 2022, 01:24:07 PM

Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 12:05:57 PM
But what about 15 ml or 5 ml?  How do you measure that with metric kitchen equipment?

Amazon sells measuring spoon sets with both US and Metric measurements:
https://www.amazon.com/Measuring-Stainless-Tablespoon-Measurements-Ingredients/dp/B07H3QRCZD?th=1

I'm sure in Europe and elsewhere they sell measuring spoons in metric.

But my question is this:  Is that how people in Europe actually measure small amounts?  Or do they use non-metric units?

I'm sure they have a 10ml spoon, 5ml spoon, a 2ml spoon, etc. Or whatever are the common sizes.
Expected answer: There is no civilization outside of lower 48!!
Actual answer: they do about the same things as in US. They do use spoons in most places, and certainly there are measurement tools similar to US.

kphoger

Quote from: kalvado on November 03, 2022, 01:43:58 PM
Actual answer: they do about the same things as in US. They do use spoons in most places, and certainly there are measurement tools similar to US.

Indeed, inn looking at German recipes, I'm seeing butter measured in a unit called "TL", which means "teaspoon".  Also a unit called "EL", which means "tablespoon".  Not SI units, that's for sure.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

7/8

Quote from: US 89 on November 03, 2022, 01:16:38 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 11:05:21 PM
Yeah, I don't really see a whole lot of need for Celsius either. The whole thing that makes the other metric measurements appealing is the ability to convert between them easily. Celsius is just kinda...there.

As far as describing how it actually feels outside, Fahrenheit wins hands down because of its smaller unit size and better useful range (0 to 100 is more or less the range of possible temperatures in most populated parts of the world).

Best way to think about them is this: Kelvin is how atoms feel. Celsius is how water feels. Fahrenheit is how humans feel.

Is the smaller unit size of Fahrenheit really necessary? I can barely perceive a 1 degree difference in Celsius let alone Fahrenheit. Really the only advantage I see with Fahrenheit is dealing with negative temperatures less often. Still, I don't think the extra two syllables in "it's minus three outside" is a big deal to me. Really either scale works fine depending on what you're used to, and after visiting the US enough times and from reading online posts, I've gotten a pretty good handle on both Celsius and Fahrenheit.

But I'm definitely thankful that my job in Civil Engineering uses metric. I only deal with m and mm and it's easy to convert between the two. :)

kphoger

Quote from: 7/8 on November 03, 2022, 01:56:34 PM
Is the smaller unit size of Fahrenheit really necessary? I can barely perceive a 1 degree difference in Celsius let alone Fahrenheit. Really the only advantage I see with Fahrenheit is dealing with negative temperatures less often. Still, I don't think the extra two syllables in "it's minus three outside" is a big deal to me. Really either scale works fine depending on what you're used to, and after visiting the US enough times and from reading online posts, I've gotten a pretty good handle on both Celsius and Fahrenheit.

I agree, neither Fahrenheit nor Celsius is more intuitive for air temperature.  But the freezing point being zero gives Celsius a huge advantage, in my opinion.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kalvado

Quote from: 7/8 on November 03, 2022, 01:56:34 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 03, 2022, 01:16:38 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 11:05:21 PM
Yeah, I don't really see a whole lot of need for Celsius either. The whole thing that makes the other metric measurements appealing is the ability to convert between them easily. Celsius is just kinda...there.

As far as describing how it actually feels outside, Fahrenheit wins hands down because of its smaller unit size and better useful range (0 to 100 is more or less the range of possible temperatures in most populated parts of the world).

Best way to think about them is this: Kelvin is how atoms feel. Celsius is how water feels. Fahrenheit is how humans feel.

Is the smaller unit size of Fahrenheit really necessary? I can barely perceive a 1 degree difference in Celsius let alone Fahrenheit. Really the only advantage I see with Fahrenheit is dealing with negative temperatures less often. Still, I don't think the extra two syllables in "it's minus three outside" is a big deal to me. Really either scale works fine depending on what you're used to, and after visiting the US enough times and from reading online posts, I've gotten a pretty good handle on both Celsius and Fahrenheit.

But I'm definitely thankful that my job in Civil Engineering uses metric. I only deal with m and mm and it's easy to convert between the two. :)
It's actually the other way around in your example. Alternative is "it's twenty seven outside", one syllable more.

kphoger

I don't really use Celsius temperatures, even when I'm in Mexico.  However, I have at least learned to tie them to the real world.  Here's my system:

  -20°C = As cold as it gets around here most years.

  -10°C = Below this temperature, being outdoors is unpleasant, no matter how much clothing I put on.

  0°C = Freezing point.

  10°C = Below this temperature, don't leave the windows open overnight.

  20°C = The bottom limit of room temperature.

  30°C = Above this temperature, outdoor activity is hot and sweaty.

  40°C = As hot as it usually gets around here.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2022, 03:55:29 PM
Because the one thing that makes me feel the most human is counting out 5,280 of something, which is something I am naturally good at as a human.

If only Parliament hadn't shortened the foot by 1/11 back in the 16th Century, there would still be 4800 feet to the mile, which would be a much more useful number.  A half-mile would then be 2400 feet (800 yards), a quarter-mile 1200 feet (400 yards), and a furlong 600 feet (200 yards).  Unfortunately for us, that decision proved to be preferable at the time to the alternative of everyone in England having to pay more 10% more in property taxes.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kalvado

Just some small additions so Fahrenheit users can check it out. And  inevitable special point:

-40°C =  -40°F : at -40 it doesn't matter any more!
Quote from: kphoger on November 03, 2022, 02:30:18 PM
I don't really use Celsius temperatures, even when I'm in Mexico.  However, I have at least learned to tie them to the real world.  Here's my system:

  -20°C = -4°F: As cold as it gets around here most years.

  -10°C = 14 °F: Below this temperature, being outdoors is unpleasant, no matter how much clothing I put on.

  0°C = 32°F Freezing point.

  10°C = 50°F Below this temperature, don't leave the windows open overnight.

  20°C = 68°F The bottom limit of room temperature. (maybe a bit too pessimistic. K.)

  30°C = 86°F Above this temperature, outdoor activity is hot and sweaty.

  40°C = 104°F: As hot as it usually gets around here.



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