exit numbering in California

[TheStranger]

or alternately they could just not spend the money that they continue to not have

Exit numbering was mandated on the federal level, correct?  That could be the rationale for large-scale sign replacement (and why they'd feel compelled to spend on THAT over anything else), considering that all but a handful of the button copy signs came from the no-exit number era (the few with numbers being 1970s installations in metro Los Angeles).

[agentsteel53]

Exit numbering was mandated on the federal level, correct?  That could be the rationale for large-scale sign replacement (and why they'd feel compelled to spend on THAT over anything else), considering that all but a handful of the button copy signs came from the no-exit number era (the few with numbers being 1970s installations in metro Los Angeles).

then why not just add exit tabs above each sign?  For some reason, CA is insisting on having the exit tabs fit on the extant sign surface (well, CA is the king of greenout!) when adding a tab above a sign would be a quick, inexpensive, and effective solution.  Just like done on those 1971 LA signs. 

[J N Winkler]

Exit numbering was mandated on the federal level, correct?  That could be the rationale for large-scale sign replacement (and why they'd feel compelled to spend on THAT over anything else), considering that all but a handful of the button copy signs came from the no-exit number era (the few with numbers being 1970s installations in metro Los Angeles).

That isn't the only reason.  Caltrans hates sign lighting and the MUTCD requires signs to be either retroreflectorized or illuminated to have similar appearance by night as they do by day.

BTW, the 1971 experimental signs in LA were center-tabbed, and so wouldn't comply with the current MUTCD, which requires the tab to be on the same side as the exit.  (Oregon DOT still center-tabs signs, though--I'm not sure how they get away with that.)

then why not just add exit tabs above each sign?  For some reason, CA is insisting on having the exit tabs fit on the extant sign surface (well, CA is the king of greenout!) when adding a tab above a sign would be a quick, inexpensive, and effective solution.  Just like done on those 1971 LA signs.

Federal MUTCD tab geometry doesn't work very well with formed panel signs, which are what Caltrans prefers for overheads.  (The only experimental tabbed signs I have seen from 1971 are all laminated-panel signs.)  There is no standard detail for mounting an exit tab to the RSPF holding a formed panel sign, and I am not sure it is even technically feasible.  There is also a tendency to use strip-style tabs on laminated-panel signs, which Caltrans still uses extensively for roadside installations--and this tendency is not confined to Caltrans either; PennDOT also uses laminated-panel signs with strip-style tabs.

[agentsteel53]

is there a diagram somewhere of what a formed-panel and a laminated-panel sign looks like?  I'm having trouble visualizing the two kinds offhand and our friend google wasn't helpful.

also, what is an RSPF?

[J N Winkler]

Quick answer (New Year's Eve party getting ready to start):  the Caltrans traffic standard sheets (probably linked to from Caltrans Signs & Delineation website) will have design details of laminated panel signs, formed panel signs, and the removable sign panel frames (RSPFs) which are used to mount formed panel signs on gantries.

[myosh_tino]

then why not just add exit tabs above each sign?  For some reason, CA is insisting on having the exit tabs fit on the extant sign surface (well, CA is the king of greenout!) when adding a tab above a sign would be a quick, inexpensive, and effective solution.  Just like done on those 1971 LA signs. 

Here's a quote from Daniel Faigin's cahighways.org website which explains why adding an exit tab to existing overhead signs wasn't an option for Caltrans...

"To minimize costs, the new exit number signs will take advantage of existing roadside and overhead signs. Where possible, add-on plates will be used. In some cases, a new sign will be installed. Part of the reason for wholesale replacement is the fact that button copy, which was previously used in California, is no longer manufacturer (in other words, the state was stuck: the old way was no longer possible). Evidently, the basic approach will be to place number tabs atop the overhead signs and on advance signs. Ideally, they will go as tabs, but the tabs will, in some cases, be the same width as the sign panels themselves. There appears to be a wide variety of approachs. Some districts include the tab in the sign itself; some use a separately internally drawn box, some use one lines, some use two. Due to new wind loading requirements relating to fatigue (which were in place before the exit number program started), this will require redesign of some of the standard sign trusses. For some signs, if the truss cannot accomodate the extra tab (due to new wind loading requirements), the exit number will be incorporated into the sign itself, superimposed on the upper right corner of the sign panel. In areas where maximum wind loads or existing legends do not permit placement of an add-on plaque or panel, a new sign would be installed. More details are available at http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/signtech/calnexus/index.htm

According to Joe Rouse, Caltrans has changed their sign truss designs in order to meet new wind load standards developed by AASHTO. Caltrans places its exit numbers in the sign panel rather than on top of the truss because the sign trusses that have been in use have not met these wind loading requirements. A few months ago, a directive was issued regarding the use of the new sign trusses, and it is specifically noted that the new designs can accomodate exit number tabs. Furthermore, the directive requires that if plans call for an old sign panel to be replaced, the first option should be to use a new truss, but if that is not possible, then the new sign panel cannot exceed the area of the old panel by a certain amount (perhaps 20 square meters). Typically, Caltrans has been installing exit numbers on existing overhead trusses by installing a new sign panel, and the new panel is usually larger than the old one. However, because of this new restriction, Caltrans may be putting really tiny exit numbers on a new panel on an old sign truss, or having an entirely new truss with possibly an exit number tab."

To quickly summarize...
* Due to funding issues, cost became a major issue which resulted in the reuse of existing trusses.
* New wind-loading requirements make adding exit tabs to existing trusses not feasible.
* The redesigned sign truss can accommodate an exit tab.
* Caltrans usually installs a new sign panel on an existing truss which is why exit tabs are not used.

Also, J N Winkler is correct in that all overhead guide signs are bolted to a removable frame (the RSPFs referenced in Mr Winkler's post) and the frame is bolted to the actual sign truss

[Scott5114]

Caltrans is still using that reasoning? I call BS on that... if Texas can post exit tabs on those little tiny triangular gantries in Amarillo, and in the middle of the friggin' Llano Estacado (the biggest flattest prairie I've seen yet, and which I can imagine gets hellacious winds), and CA can't, then they're doing something very wrong. The tabs are less than 24" tall... if that's going to cause significant effect with wind on a truss, then that truss is too dangerous to be in service!

[vdeane]

Honestly, I really hope that Caltrans will someday realize that they should just do things the way the rest of the country does them.  Their current implementation of exit numbers (and the way the cram way too much onto signs) makes their signage uglier than Clearview, regardless of what font they use.

[TheStranger]

Honestly, I really hope that Caltrans will someday realize that they should just do things the way the rest of the country does them.  

If CalTrans being "odd" means we continue to have cutout US shields everywhere, I have a very hard time seeing this as a problem...

Honestly, I don't think sign aesthetics factors into the thinking of the average commuter here - but I do get the impression from people out here that they're not used to exit numbering at all yet.  (Before the exit numbers came in, most folks were referring to the exits by exit name, and still do to a large extent.)

Certainly they could cram less information (the 120/99 junction comes to mind), or be more accurate with route signage (the sign replacement project on US 50 in Sacramento is a prime example of how NOT to acknowledge numbered routes, while the replacement project on the US 101 segment of the Santa Ana Freeway was a major improvement)...at the same time, for the most part, the signs in this state do their job as asked.

[myosh_tino]

Honestly, I really hope that Caltrans will someday realize that they should just do things the way the rest of the country does them.  

If CalTrans being "odd" means we continue to have cutout US shields everywhere, I have a very hard time seeing this as a problem...

Honestly, I don't think sign aesthetics factors into the thinking of the average commuter here - but I do get the impression from people out here that they're not used to exit numbering at all yet.  (Before the exit numbers came in, most folks were referring to the exits by exit name, and still do to a large extent.)

Certainly they could cram less information (the 120/99 junction comes to mind), or be more accurate with route signage (the sign replacement project on US 50 in Sacramento is a prime example of how NOT to acknowledge numbered routes, while the replacement project on the US 101 segment of the Santa Ana Freeway was a major improvement)...at the same time, for the most part, the signs in this state do their job as asked.

I couldn't agree with you more.  From cutout U.S. shields to 1961-spec Interstate shields to cutout state route shields to our "unique" way of implementing exit numbering, it all makes California unique and I see nothing wrong with it.  Like what TheStranger said in his last post, most locals (including the traffic reporters) refer to exits by name, not by exit number.

Another bit of uniqueness that we have in California is the narrow gore point signs.  The 2-digit gore point sign is only 54x48 while the 3-digit gore point sign is 48x60.

EDIT: As pointed out by Agentsteel53, California uses the 1961-spec Interstate shield, not 1970-spec.  I stand corrected.

[Scott5114]

There is a problem with the way that CA implements exit tabs–when tabs are cutout the proper way then they are more noticeable, especially in the evening when the sun is behind the signs. Traveling west on I-70 through downtown Columbus, Ohio at evening was made 2x harder than it should have been because the tabs weren't done properly. When you can see "left tab" and "right tab" clearly from far away, it makes it easier to get in the correct lane.

[agentsteel53]

61 spec, not 70 spec interstate shields!  70 spec has the wacky margins and comes in state-named and neutered versions, and nearly all states use it.

[Riverside Frwy]

Personally I don't see the whole big deal with exit numbers.Their nice, but when I drive I couldn't give a rat's ass about the exit number.I am more worried about the street name/route number, because when I'm going to a specific destination once I get off the freeway the exit number becomes useless.Besides, California has survived this long without exit numbers I think we dont really need them.

[agentsteel53]

in rural areas, when my map shows me only an exit number, the street name is useless!

[Scott5114]

Also, it's a lot easier when telling directions. "Get off at Exit 174" is a lot easier to tell some numbskull than "Get off at Highway 51-Stillwater/Hennessey"!

[Riverside Frwy]

in rural areas, when my map shows me only an exit number, the street name is useless!

but seeing as 9.9999999999999% i'm never going in rural areas, let alone actually getting off the freeway except for truck/rest stops.

Also, it's a lot easier when telling directions. "Get off at Exit 174" is a lot easier to tell some numbskull than "Get off at Highway 51-Stillwater/Hennessey"!

True, but out here california, people(including I) don't have any problem saying the street name.Plus seeing as the exit number is the smallest thing on the dang sign, people I know find it easier to know the actual street name.(especially for someone not too road savvy and older folks with not-so-good eyes.Heck, even my Grandmother has trouble just seeing the big street name as it is.)But I see what you are saying though.

[shoptb1]

Personally I don't see the whole big deal with exit numbers.Their nice, but when I drive I couldn't give a rat's ass about the exit number.I am more worried about the street name/route number, because when I'm going to a specific destination once I get off the freeway the exit number becomes useless.Besides, California has survived this long without exit numbers I think we dont really need them.

Exit numbers, especially when numbered properly (based upon mileage) are far superior to other methods of giving directions for several reasons:

1) In rural areas, street names are very rarely used and multiple exits may use the same city name on advance signage.
2) Most people can navigate based upon exit numbers much easier than route numbers, since those can also repeat on multiple signs.  
3) Navigation systems (GPS) will provide exit numbers in directions.
4) The rest of the United States provides exit numbers on the Eisenhower Interstate System.

[Scott5114]

I-35 in Oklahoma has two exits in the same county named "US-77/Turner Falls Area", and I-40 has two for "I-40 BUS/Erick" one each of "I-40 BUS/N. 4th St." and "I-40 BUS/S. 4th St."...

[Riverside Frwy]

I-35 in Oklahoma has two exits in the same county named "US-77/Turner Falls Area", and I-40 has two for "I-40 BUS/Erick" one each of "I-40 BUS/N. 4th St." and "I-40 BUS/S. 4th St."...

Well, I guess that's why other states have and we mostly don't. We don't have that problem out here.

[Riverside Frwy]

Personally I don't see the whole big deal with exit numbers.Their nice, but when I drive I couldn't give a rat's ass about the exit number.I am more worried about the street name/route number, because when I'm going to a specific destination once I get off the freeway the exit number becomes useless.Besides, California has survived this long without exit numbers I think we dont really need them.

Exit numbers, especially when numbered properly (based upon mileage) are far superior to other methods of giving directions for several reasons:

1) In rural areas, street names are very rarely used and multiple exits may use the same city name on advance signage.
2) Most people can navigate based upon exit numbers much easier than route numbers, since those can also repeat on multiple signs.  
3) Navigation systems (GPS) will provide exit numbers in directions.
4) The rest of the United States provides exit numbers on the Eisenhower Interstate System.

1) As I said before, most people don't go into rural areas anyway and if they do it's just to stop a truck/rest stop.
2)Yes route markers can appear multiple times on signs, but they also say the DIRECTION and/or CONTROL CITY.Considering that if I'm going someplace I would to pay attention to that as well, except some states that have ridiculously too many routes sign on one stretch of highway, this argument isn't even valid.
3)Well somehow people can get around perfectly fine with GPS systems out here, and keep in mind not every exit is numbered out here.
4)I could care even less than what I care now about what other states do.

But anyway, Exit numbers are being rotated in, and they sure are nice to have.

[TheStranger]

I-35 in Oklahoma has two exits in the same county named "US-77/Turner Falls Area", and I-40 has two for "I-40 BUS/Erick" one each of "I-40 BUS/N. 4th St." and "I-40 BUS/S. 4th St."...

Well, I guess that's why other states have and we mostly don't. We don't have that problem out here.

From the AARoads WestCoastRoads page, they note that US 101 has FOUR different exits for a "Santa Rosa" street or avenue upon its length, so...that is an issue sometimes out here, yeah.

Your assertion that "most people don't go into rural areas" really ignores the importance of having exit numbers on lengthy inter-city stretches - which California has plenty of (I-10 east of Redlands, I-15 north of San Bernardino, US 101 between Santa Barbara and San Jose, I-5 between Los Angeles and Stockton, I-80 northeast of Rocklin).  There's plenty of long-distance travelers out here, even within the state, for CalTrans to cater to.

[Scott5114]

You've done just about everything except argue that California doesn't need exit numbers because they have In-N-Out Burger and other states don't Have you been drinking copious amounts of whatever's in the water at Caltrans HQ?

And you'd be surprised by who uses exit numbers.... My roommate drove out to California this summer. She loves the place; she has a California flag above her bed and a AAA California map on the wall. Well, when she got back, I asked her how hard it was to get around out there, knowing she's not really familiar with the complicated urban freeway system environment that Orange County has to offer. She said "I managed to find my way around ok, but they don't have exit numbers! It would have been so much easier if they did!" Took me aback...I didn't even know she noticed the damn things here!

[TheStranger]

And you'd be surprised by who uses exit numbers.... My roommate drove out to California this summer. She loves the place; she has a California flag above her bed and a AAA California map on the wall. Well, when she got back, I asked her how hard it was to get around out there, knowing she's not really familiar with the complicated urban freeway system environment that Orange County has to offer. She said "I managed to find my way around ok, but they don't have exit numbers! It would have been so much easier if they did!" Took me aback...I didn't even know she noticed the damn things here!

Considering that exit numbers have really started to show up everywhere in Northern California in the last two years - and Orange County, after all, has its own CalTrans district - I'm surprised that part of the state was apparently still lacking in them!

Metro Sacramento started receiving exit numbers around 2005 or 2006, with I-80 from Longview Avenue northeast out of the area being one of the first to receive them.  US 50 east of Rancho Cordova soon followed; last year, I-5 in the Greenhaven district of Sacramento, Route 99 from Elk Grove north, and US 50 between Route 99 and Rancho Cordova all received the new signage.

The portion of US 50 co-routed with Route 99 and Business 80 just received numbers in the last two or three months, except...at the 80/50 and 99/50/Business 80 splits!  Considering that the 99/5 split in Wheeler Ridge and the 101/80 interchange in SF do have numbers, my guess for why CalTrans didn't put numbers for the two interchanges I mentioned has to do with potential confusion over which route "Exit 6" (for the 99/50/80 split) and "Exit 82" (for 80/50) would be referring to, given the through-lane configurations - not particularly convincing when past practice has been to number these termini.

I would say that out here, most urban freeways have 75% exits numbered, with a few exceptions - for instance, I-80 from SF to Roseville still lacks numbers at Mace Boulevard and Olive Drive in Davis, the previously noted 80/50 split in West Sacramento, and a stretch between I-5 and Longview Drive passing through Natomas and Del Paso Heights in Sacramento.

[myosh_tino]

Exit numbering in the S.F. Bay Area has been and still is a slow process.  All I-280 exits in San Mateo County were recently signed with exit numbers but once you cross into Santa Clara County, only 4 exits (De Anza Blvd, Wolfe Rd, Winchester Blvd and Bird Ave) are signed with exit numbers.  Staying in Santa Clara County, only exits on CA-87 have exit numbers while I-880, I-680, CA-17, CA-237 and CA-85 only have a handful of exits signed with numbers and IIRC, there are no exit numbers on I-680 until you reach Auto Mall Pkwy in Fremont.  Exit numbering on U.S. 101 within Santa Clara County was only done when signs were replaced as part of a construction project or when butterfly sign trusses were removed.

Heading back to San Mateo County though, it looks like all exit signs on U.S. 101, I-380 and CA-92 were replaced with new signs that include an exit number.

I think Alameda County is following Santa Clara County's lead where exit number signs are installed only when the original signs are replaced as part of a construction project.  The only exception is I-580 between Oakland and I-238 where almost all of the signs were replaced.

EDIT: I'm thinking this part of the discussion should be moved to it's own topic as it's pretty clear it's not Clearview-related.
EDIT #2:  Oops.  Looks like Agentsteel53 beat me to it.  

[agentsteel53]

seems like a good idea to split the topic...