When did The Simpsons jump the shark?

[gr8daynegb]

♫ They'll never stop The Simpsons, ♫
♫ Have no fears, we've got stories for years, ♫
♫ Like - Marge becomes a robot, ♫
♫ Maybe Moe gets a cell-phone, ♫
♫ Has Bart ever owned a bear, ♫
♫ Or, how 'bout a crazy wedding?♫
♫ And something happens a do-do-do-do-doooo, ♫
♫ Sorry for the clip-show, ♫
♫ Have no fears, we've got stories for years. ♫

[texaskdog]

The first chink in the armor was The Principal and the Pauper early in season 9.  The rest of that season was pretty great otherwise with some of my personal favorites sprinkled in there.
But season 10, that's where it really took a hit.

The reasons are numerous and mostly come down to dilution.  The Simpsons dominated for it's first 9 years because it mostly stood alone.  It was subversive, but with a heart and it attracted a lot of great writers.  Enough that they could shed a few every couple of years to their own projects and keep making good shows.

But in the late 90's, the rest of television caught up to The Simpsons.  It's tone didn't stand out as much any more and other shows began to match it's joke density.  And of course there was the new wave of prime time animated shows; much of which were staffed by Simpsons alumni.  They even did it to themselves with Futurama.

9 seasons in, they were already starting to rehash certain plot types, especially when it came to stories about Homer fucking something up and Marge almost leaving him, but then they figure it out.  And they had already rewrote the show's timeline once in terms of Marge and Hormer's history together.  The exploration of ancillary characters worked well until they blew it with Skinner.  It was the herald of things to come with Octuplets and sober Barney and killing Maude and other shit like that.

My next argument for Season 10 being the one where they were over the hill is the star-fucker episode When You Dish Upon a Star.  It marked the point where celebrity cameos became more about throwing popular names in there so Fox had something easy they could market.  For most of the series to that point, guest voices were less about popularity and more about cool, if that makes sense.  But in this one episode, they crammed a bunch of actors into a forgettable plot that was all about "Hey it's Alec Baldwin and Ron Howard, everyone!"  It's so far removed from the shows initial charm.

I'm probably one of the few people around here who never stopped watching.  There are enough compelling episodes to keep me watching, plus I guess I'm super loyal to some TV shows.  I would actually be quite comfortable if The Simpsons would come to an end.  I am repulsed that they are now owned by Disney and I think that would have been a great time to pull the plug as a grand protest to the absorption of Fox Entertainment by the grotesque amoeba that is the Walt Disney Corporation.  But I still watch it because I'm invested in these characters and I want to see what they're up to.

Much like South Park which was pretty good seasons 3-8 and is now unwatchable.

[OCGuy81]

The first chink in the armor was The Principal and the Pauper early in season 9.  The rest of that season was pretty great otherwise with some of my personal favorites sprinkled in there.
But season 10, that's where it really took a hit.

The reasons are numerous and mostly come down to dilution.  The Simpsons dominated for it's first 9 years because it mostly stood alone.  It was subversive, but with a heart and it attracted a lot of great writers.  Enough that they could shed a few every couple of years to their own projects and keep making good shows.

But in the late 90's, the rest of television caught up to The Simpsons.  It's tone didn't stand out as much any more and other shows began to match it's joke density.  And of course there was the new wave of prime time animated shows; much of which were staffed by Simpsons alumni.  They even did it to themselves with Futurama.

9 seasons in, they were already starting to rehash certain plot types, especially when it came to stories about Homer fucking something up and Marge almost leaving him, but then they figure it out.  And they had already rewrote the show's timeline once in terms of Marge and Hormer's history together.  The exploration of ancillary characters worked well until they blew it with Skinner.  It was the herald of things to come with Octuplets and sober Barney and killing Maude and other shit like that.

My next argument for Season 10 being the one where they were over the hill is the star-fucker episode When You Dish Upon a Star.  It marked the point where celebrity cameos became more about throwing popular names in there so Fox had something easy they could market.  For most of the series to that point, guest voices were less about popularity and more about cool, if that makes sense.  But in this one episode, they crammed a bunch of actors into a forgettable plot that was all about "Hey it's Alec Baldwin and Ron Howard, everyone!"  It's so far removed from the shows initial charm.

I'm probably one of the few people around here who never stopped watching.  There are enough compelling episodes to keep me watching, plus I guess I'm super loyal to some TV shows.  I would actually be quite comfortable if The Simpsons would come to an end.  I am repulsed that they are now owned by Disney and I think that would have been a great time to pull the plug as a grand protest to the absorption of Fox Entertainment by the grotesque amoeba that is the Walt Disney Corporation.  But I still watch it because I'm invested in these characters and I want to see what they're up to.

Man, I agree with ALL of those points.  I'd forgotten about the When You Dish Upon a Star episode.  Yeah, there started to be cameos just for the sake of cameos and ridiculous plots revolving around them. 

I think they've re-written Homer and Marge meeting a couple times.  In the 90s, it was established that they met in high school.  I saw one (not sure the season, but it was later) where they met at a summer camp as kids? Awful.

[OCGuy81]

The first chink in the armor was The Principal and the Pauper early in season 9.  The rest of that season was pretty great otherwise with some of my personal favorites sprinkled in there.
But season 10, that's where it really took a hit.

The reasons are numerous and mostly come down to dilution.  The Simpsons dominated for it's first 9 years because it mostly stood alone.  It was subversive, but with a heart and it attracted a lot of great writers.  Enough that they could shed a few every couple of years to their own projects and keep making good shows.

But in the late 90's, the rest of television caught up to The Simpsons.  It's tone didn't stand out as much any more and other shows began to match it's joke density.  And of course there was the new wave of prime time animated shows; much of which were staffed by Simpsons alumni.  They even did it to themselves with Futurama.

9 seasons in, they were already starting to rehash certain plot types, especially when it came to stories about Homer fucking something up and Marge almost leaving him, but then they figure it out.  And they had already rewrote the show's timeline once in terms of Marge and Hormer's history together.  The exploration of ancillary characters worked well until they blew it with Skinner.  It was the herald of things to come with Octuplets and sober Barney and killing Maude and other shit like that.

My next argument for Season 10 being the one where they were over the hill is the star-fucker episode When You Dish Upon a Star.  It marked the point where celebrity cameos became more about throwing popular names in there so Fox had something easy they could market.  For most of the series to that point, guest voices were less about popularity and more about cool, if that makes sense.  But in this one episode, they crammed a bunch of actors into a forgettable plot that was all about "Hey it's Alec Baldwin and Ron Howard, everyone!"  It's so far removed from the shows initial charm.

I'm probably one of the few people around here who never stopped watching.  There are enough compelling episodes to keep me watching, plus I guess I'm super loyal to some TV shows.  I would actually be quite comfortable if The Simpsons would come to an end.  I am repulsed that they are now owned by Disney and I think that would have been a great time to pull the plug as a grand protest to the absorption of Fox Entertainment by the grotesque amoeba that is the Walt Disney Corporation.  But I still watch it because I'm invested in these characters and I want to see what they're up to.

Much like South Park which was pretty good seasons 3-8 and is now unwatchable.

I agree to a point.  I think the overall focus of South Park shifted.  Originally, it was just about four foul mouthed kids getting into crazy adventures in a small mountain town.  Nowadays, it's more of a satire on current events.  I too think the older seasons are the most enjoyable, but there are some good episodes to be had in the newer seasons.  Basically, anything with Randy (the one where he gets addicted to Food Network is hilarious) or Butters.

[jmacswimmer]

Much like South Park which was pretty good seasons 3-8 and is now unwatchable.

I agree to a point.  I think the overall focus of South Park shifted.  Originally, it was just about four foul mouthed kids getting into crazy adventures in a small mountain town.  Nowadays, it's more of a satire on current events.  I too think the older seasons are the most enjoyable, but there are some good episodes to be had in the newer seasons.  Basically, anything with Randy (the one where he gets addicted to Food Network is hilarious) or Butters.

One of my favorite things about newer South Park is when they lampoon 2 unrelated events together in the same episode.  Some of my top episodes, for this reason:
-The Black Friday/Game of Thrones trilogy
-Washington Redskins/Kickstarter

Also agreed on anything Randy..."I thought this was America!!!"

[triplemultiplex]

If you like Randy, though, the last several seasons of South Park have been tailored for you because it's been all Randy all the time.  The arc with his Tegridy Farms weed business has consumed considerable screen time the last three years.

[OCGuy81]

If you like Randy, though, the last several seasons of South Park have been tailored for you because it's been all Randy all the time.  The arc with his Tegridy Farms weed business has consumed considerable screen time the last three years.

Yeah, I think that story arc has ran its course.  I thought there were some funny parts, but the best Randy is probably from seasons 9-14.  Randy fighting other dads at the baseball game, the Creme Fraiche episode....

[GCrites]

I think the idea was to serialize each season starting a few years back. That went on for a couple seasons then new episodes started drying up. Since 2012 the number of episodes per season has dropped from 14 to 10. Since 2020 there were only the two specials, presumably due to COVID.

[Takumi]

The first chink in the armor was The Principal and the Pauper early in season 9.  The rest of that season was pretty great otherwise with some of my personal favorites sprinkled in there.
But season 10, that's where it really took a hit.

The reasons are numerous and mostly come down to dilution.  The Simpsons dominated for it's first 9 years because it mostly stood alone.  It was subversive, but with a heart and it attracted a lot of great writers.  Enough that they could shed a few every couple of years to their own projects and keep making good shows.

But in the late 90's, the rest of television caught up to The Simpsons.  It's tone didn't stand out as much any more and other shows began to match it's joke density.  And of course there was the new wave of prime time animated shows; much of which were staffed by Simpsons alumni.  They even did it to themselves with Futurama.

9 seasons in, they were already starting to rehash certain plot types, especially when it came to stories about Homer fucking something up and Marge almost leaving him, but then they figure it out.  And they had already rewrote the show's timeline once in terms of Marge and Hormer's history together.  The exploration of ancillary characters worked well until they blew it with Skinner.  It was the herald of things to come with Octuplets and sober Barney and killing Maude and other shit like that.

My next argument for Season 10 being the one where they were over the hill is the star-fucker episode When You Dish Upon a Star.  It marked the point where celebrity cameos became more about throwing popular names in there so Fox had something easy they could market.  For most of the series to that point, guest voices were less about popularity and more about cool, if that makes sense.  But in this one episode, they crammed a bunch of actors into a forgettable plot that was all about "Hey it's Alec Baldwin and Ron Howard, everyone!"  It's so far removed from the shows initial charm.

I'm probably one of the few people around here who never stopped watching.  There are enough compelling episodes to keep me watching, plus I guess I'm super loyal to some TV shows.  I would actually be quite comfortable if The Simpsons would come to an end.  I am repulsed that they are now owned by Disney and I think that would have been a great time to pull the plug as a grand protest to the absorption of Fox Entertainment by the grotesque amoeba that is the Walt Disney Corporation.  But I still watch it because I'm invested in these characters and I want to see what they're up to.

Man, I agree with ALL of those points.  I'd forgotten about the When You Dish Upon a Star episode.  Yeah, there started to be cameos just for the sake of cameos and ridiculous plots revolving around them. 

I think they've re-written Homer and Marge meeting a couple times.  In the 90s, it was established that they met in high school.  I saw one (not sure the season, but it was later) where they met at a summer camp as kids? Awful.

The summer camp one was, if it's the same one I'm thinking of, where they didn't actually meet, but had an "almost met"  type of moment.

There was a much more recent episode where they retconned it to have them dating in the early 90s, when Marge was at college and Homer supposedly invented grunge music.

[triplemultiplex]

There was a much more recent episode where they retconned it to have them dating in the early 90s, when Marge was at college and Homer supposedly invented grunge music.

Even more recently, they had one with Homer and Marge living in a hip apartment building when Bart was a baby set in the mid to late oughts.

[OCGuy81]

I'm very curious just HOW they end it at this point.

Usually, a final episode ties together a lot of the series.  There can be homages to past characters, early seasons.  But the Simpsons?  Been on for 30 years! It'd have to be a long finale.

[ErmineNotyours]

But in this one episode, they crammed a bunch of actors into a forgettable plot that was all about "Hey it's Alec Baldwin and Ron Howard, everyone!"  It's so far removed from the shows initial charm.

It's even more obvious when Futurama hires the same stars that also made Simpsons appearances, and Futurama does it with much more flair.  The Simpsons had Penn & Teller guest on a show, and then stopped the show to give Teller an extended monologue.  The viewers are supposed to think, "Oh, it's Teller, and he's speaking."  Futurama had a movie-length episode with a Penn Jillette appearance, and showed Teller's lifeless head floating in a jar.  The Simpsons also had Stephen Hawking give an extended monologue for the hell of it, but only Futurama had Hawking deliver the line, "You can take that pizza and throw it in the garbage."

Ron Howard appeared in an earlier episode too.  When they started a montage of audition scenes, I was sure it would lead to Ralph Wiggum singing "Gary, Indiana," but either the shows creators wanted to nix an idea that was too obvious, or Ron Howard said no.

[formulanone]

I'm very curious just HOW they end it at this point.

Usually, a final episode ties together a lot of the series.  There can be homages to past characters, early seasons.  But the Simpsons?  Been on for 30 years! It'd have to be a long finale.

If the SNPP goes ka-blooey, at least Rory Bellows is insured for a surprisingly large amount.

[OCGuy81]

I'm very curious just HOW they end it at this point.

Usually, a final episode ties together a lot of the series.  There can be homages to past characters, early seasons.  But the Simpsons?  Been on for 30 years! It'd have to be a long finale.

If the SNPP goes ka-blooey, at least Rory Bellows is insured for a surprisingly large amount.

Oh yeah! Handsome Pete down at the docks told me about that guy. He signs his name a lot like Krusty.

[triplemultiplex]

Right down to the superfluous third nipple!



I'm worried if they wait too long to end The Simpsons, the are going to have one of the central voice cast die and then have to figure something out.  Julie Kavner is over 70 already.  And between Harry, Dan, and Hank, that's like 85% of the population of Springfield.  I don't want them to have to recast for a third of their characters because something bad happened.  That would be like when a regular sitcom tries to soldier on after their big star leaves the show.  (Almost always sucks!)

[OCGuy81]

Right down to the superfluous third nipple!



I'm worried if they wait too long to end The Simpsons, the are going to have one of the central voice cast die and then have to figure something out.  Julie Kavner is over 70 already.  And between Harry, Dan, and Hank, that's like 85% of the population of Springfield.  I don't want them to have to recast for a third of their characters because something bad happened.  That would be like when a regular sitcom tries to soldier on after their big star leaves the show.  (Almost always sucks!)

Totally agree on your last point.  Roseanne left (well, was forced out) and they tried to keep going with The Conners.  Not the same.

8 Simple Rules was probably one of the worst offenders.  Trying to keep going after John Ritter died.

[texaskdog]

Right down to the superfluous third nipple!



I'm worried if they wait too long to end The Simpsons, the are going to have one of the central voice cast die and then have to figure something out.  Julie Kavner is over 70 already.  And between Harry, Dan, and Hank, that's like 85% of the population of Springfield.  I don't want them to have to recast for a third of their characters because something bad happened.  That would be like when a regular sitcom tries to soldier on after their big star leaves the show.  (Almost always sucks!)

Totally agree on your last point.  Roseanne left (well, was forced out) and they tried to keep going with The Conners.  Not the same.

8 Simple Rules was probably one of the worst offenders.  Trying to keep going after John Ritter died.

James Garner great actor-miscast.  David Spade good for what he does, not here.  Dan Cortese's 15 minutes were up with Burger King.

[Takumi]

I'm worried if they wait too long to end The Simpsons, the are going to have one of the central voice cast die and then have to figure something out.  Julie Kavner is over 70 already.  And between Harry, Dan, and Hank, that's like 85% of the population of Springfield.  I don't want them to have to recast for a third of their characters because something bad happened.

Harry Shearer is even older than Julie; he’s 77. The other main cast are in their 50s/60s. Some of the more recent additions to the supporting cast are younger.

Some of the characters have already been recast because Hank Azaria decided to give the roles to someone of the same ethnicity as the character.

[triplemultiplex]

Some of the characters have already been recast because Hank Azaria decided to give the roles to someone of the same ethnicity as the character.

And that opens another can of worms about The Simpsons and the circular firing squad they got into after that Apu documentary.  Whatever legitimate concerns are being aired in that area take a back seat when a long time fan hears a different voice coming out of a familiar character's mouth and is supposed to pretend that nothing is wrong.

Phil Lamar is an accomplished voice actor who does tons of characters I love, but he is not Lou, the Springfield Police Officer; I'm sorry.  The idea that a voice actor needs to be the same ethnicity as the character they are playing is just as toxic as someone doing a bad stereotype.  It's a goddamn cartoon; whoever can make the best voice should get the gig.  Who gives a fart what their skin looks like?

[texaskdog]

If you like Randy, though, the last several seasons of South Park have been tailored for you because it's been all Randy all the time.  The arc with his Tegridy Farms weed business has consumed considerable screen time the last three years.

Generally, even in the good season, they had brilliant satire on current events but they could never write good endings.

[texaskdog]

Some of the characters have already been recast because Hank Azaria decided to give the roles to someone of the same ethnicity as the character.

Phil Lamar is an accomplished voice actor who does tons of characters I love, but he is not Lou, the Springfield Police Officer; I'm sorry.  The idea that a voice actor needs to be the same ethnicity as the character they are playing is just as toxic as someone doing a bad stereotype.  It's a goddamn cartoon; whoever can make the best voice should get the gig.  Who gives a fart what their skin looks like?

That's racist in itself, giving people jobs based on skin color.  Hell Bart is voiced by a woman.

[Rothman]

Some of the characters have already been recast because Hank Azaria decided to give the roles to someone of the same ethnicity as the character.

Phil Lamar is an accomplished voice actor who does tons of characters I love, but he is not Lou, the Springfield Police Officer; I'm sorry.  The idea that a voice actor needs to be the same ethnicity as the character they are playing is just as toxic as someone doing a bad stereotype.  It's a goddamn cartoon; whoever can make the best voice should get the gig.  Who gives a fart what their skin looks like?

That's racist in itself, giving people jobs based on skin color.  Hell Bart is voiced by a woman.

Given the history of blackface performances and the like, I don't think it's objectionable to have voice actors of characters match their character's race.

[kphoger]

I don't think it's objectionable either.  But I also don't think it's objectionable for them not to match.  Because the color of the voice actor's skin shouldn't matter.

Should a black voice actor be disallowed to voice over a white cartoon character?  Or a Korean voice actor be disallowed to voice over a Japanese cartoon character?

[texaskdog]

Some of the characters have already been recast because Hank Azaria decided to give the roles to someone of the same ethnicity as the character.

Phil Lamar is an accomplished voice actor who does tons of characters I love, but he is not Lou, the Springfield Police Officer; I'm sorry.  The idea that a voice actor needs to be the same ethnicity as the character they are playing is just as toxic as someone doing a bad stereotype.  It's a goddamn cartoon; whoever can make the best voice should get the gig.  Who gives a fart what their skin looks like?

That's racist in itself, giving people jobs based on skin color.  Hell Bart is voiced by a woman.

Given the history of blackface performances and the like, I don't think it's objectionable to have voice actors of characters match their character's race.

The problem with the whole blackface thing is blackface is clearly racist.  A white person imitating a black character who makes themselves look like the character is something different.  Actually defending Jimmy Kimmel who otherwise is a huge hypocrite, guy who hosted the Man Show being the Metoo guy come on now.

[GCrites]

Oh I bet he wishes The Man Show never happened.