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AK-2 extension to Nome

Started by agentsteel53, January 07, 2013, 10:05:42 AM

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707

My proposal compares to the 1964 proposal in the fact that US 97 is designated along the Alaska Highway and AK-2 as far west as Fairbanks (which was shown on that map fragment in the website that you linked to). Also, I have no idea what you mean by some map "jumping the gun". The ways in which it differs include making the Dalton US 97 Alternate and improving both the Dalton and AK-2 where it is needed.


oscar

#26
Quote from: 707 on April 14, 2013, 02:23:27 AM
My proposal compares to the 1964 proposal in the fact that US 97 is designated along the Alaska Highway and AK-2 as far west as Fairbanks (which was shown on that map fragment in the website that you linked to). Also, I have no idea what you mean by some map "jumping the gun".

The map fragment you mention, from a 1957 AAA road map, is the one I said "jump[ed] the gun".

I suggest we move any further discussion of your US 97 proposal to Fictional Highways.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

Alps

I don't see why US 97 would ever have been proposed from Council to Nome. Once it hits Fairbanks, the road is generally west from there to Nome, and Council to Nome in particular heads southwest. Obviously, since there's only one road, Alaska could change the directions any way it wanted and have 97 run east/west from Fairbanks. If Alaska wanted to be part of the system, they could propose a US 0?

NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

SP Cook

Seriously, it seems there are something like 5000 people in Nome, and less than 10000 in the entire region.  A search of social statistics shows that the vast majority are not engaged in productive work.  It would cost far less to simply relocate these people than to build 500 miles of road.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: SP Cook on April 14, 2013, 09:01:28 AM
Seriously, it seems there are something like 5000 people in Nome, and less than 10000 in the entire region.  A search of social statistics shows that the vast majority are not engaged in productive work.  It would cost far less to simply relocate these people than to build 500 miles of road.

I disagree.   

There are apparently a lot of natural resources that could be much more easily extracted in areas north of the Yukon River if the Nome Highway were to be built. 

Might even provide employment for some of those 5,000 people.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

oscar

Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 21, 2013, 04:01:33 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on April 14, 2013, 09:01:28 AM
Seriously, it seems there are something like 5000 people in Nome, and less than 10000 in the entire region.  A search of social statistics shows that the vast majority are not engaged in productive work.  It would cost far less to simply relocate these people than to build 500 miles of road.

I disagree.   

There are apparently a lot of natural resources that could be much more easily extracted in areas north of the Yukon River if the Nome Highway were to be built. 

Might even provide employment for some of those 5,000 people.

Also, does the definition of "productive work" include the subsistence lifestyles of native peoples living off their lands (such as by hunting and fishing)?  Lots of them up there, many (at least around Nome -- maybe not in areas even more isolated than the Nome region) not particularly excited about the proposed new road, so it's not really being done as a favor to them. 
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

cpzilliacus

Quote from: oscar on April 21, 2013, 05:43:44 PM
Also, does the definition of "productive work" include the subsistence lifestyles of native peoples living off their lands (such as by hunting and fishing)?  Lots of them up there, many (at least around Nome -- maybe not in areas even more isolated than the Nome region) not particularly excited about the proposed new road, so it's not really being done as a favor to them.

That is a fair question that I cannot answer. 

Though with a completed Nome Highway, I assert that some of the native people (though perhaps not all) would have a better life because they would be able to sell some of their products to a larger market.

On the flipside, I know that many native villages in Alaska have declared themselves to be legally "dry," and with a through highway between Nome and Fairbanks, it would likely be very difficult or impossible for them to keep alcohol and other drugs out (and even now, it's not easy to maintain a dry community, at least if many segments of Alaska State Troopers (airs on the National Geographic Chanel) are correct).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

richllewis

#33
There is an article in the Fairbanks News-Miner detailing work in the Northern District of the Department of Transportation and Public Facilities that is in the neighborhood of 200 Million Dollars at http://www.newsminer.com/news/local_news/northern-alaska-transportation-construction-projects-top-million/article_be177b54-bba1-11e2-aabe-001a4bcf6878.html .On the list is the road from Manley Hot Springs to Tanana or leg 1 of the road to Nome. They seem to have a lot of work to be done in that part of Alaska. It will be very interesting what comes out.

kphoger

Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 22, 2013, 05:18:47 PM
Quote from: oscar on April 21, 2013, 05:43:44 PM
Also, does the definition of "productive work" include the subsistence lifestyles of native peoples living off their lands (such as by hunting and fishing)?  Lots of them up there, many (at least around Nome -- maybe not in areas even more isolated than the Nome region) not particularly excited about the proposed new road, so it's not really being done as a favor to them.

That is a fair question that I cannot answer. 

Though with a completed Nome Highway, I assert that some of the native people (though perhaps not all) would have a better life because they would be able to sell some of their products to a larger market.

But, still, you're imposing your view of what a "better" life would be onto a population who may not agree with your view.  Being able to sell products to a larger market doesn't necessarily equal a "better" life, depending on who you're talking to.  The Amish, for example, are not all of one mind when it comes to selling their products to us English:  many feel that it weakens their cultural autonomy and would therefore not call it a path to a "better" life.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
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Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

The High Plains Traveler

Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2013, 08:55:01 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 22, 2013, 05:18:47 PM
Quote from: oscar on April 21, 2013, 05:43:44 PM
Also, does the definition of "productive work" include the subsistence lifestyles of native peoples living off their lands (such as by hunting and fishing)?  Lots of them up there, many (at least around Nome -- maybe not in areas even more isolated than the Nome region) not particularly excited about the proposed new road, so it's not really being done as a favor to them.

That is a fair question that I cannot answer. 

Though with a completed Nome Highway, I assert that some of the native people (though perhaps not all) would have a better life because they would be able to sell some of their products to a larger market.

But, still, you're imposing your view of what a "better" life would be onto a population who may not agree with your view.  Being able to sell products to a larger market doesn't necessarily equal a "better" life, depending on who you're talking to.  The Amish, for example, are not all of one mind when it comes to selling their products to us English:  many feel that it weakens their cultural autonomy and would therefore not call it a path to a "better" life.
Many of America's "First Nations" (as the Canadians denote them) have not benefited from the imposition of the American lifestyle on them, to the detriment of their native culture. It is hard, I admit, to envision the aboriginal Americans living in their historic lifestyles with the modern American lifestyle going on around them. It's also sad to see the impact of this cultural conflict on these communities, as I observed living in New Mexico in the 1970s and watching the "Alaska State Troopers" episodes set in native communities. I guess I find applying a "productive work" test to be a little condescending, since keeping one's family and community thriving in that physical environment requires pretty productive work in terms of subsistence living, hunting and fishing. Please don't take this as a personal criticism, but I would guess many of these folks would not find it easy to incorporate the changes to their lives brought on by an influx of tourists or business developers.
"Tongue-tied and twisted; just an earth-bound misfit, I."

leroys73

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Grzrd

#37
Quote from: Grzrd on February 08, 2013, 11:51:15 PM
The Corps of Engineers is conducting a Deep Draft Port Study for the Nome/Port Clarence region
Quote from: mgk920 on February 21, 2013, 11:40:33 AM
Also, a new rail line is under construction between the current end of the Alaska Railroad ('ARR') at North Pole, AK and Delta Junction (see http://www.northernrailextension.com/ for more on this interesting project.).  It's another piece in the whole transport development puzzle in that part of North America - including potentially to that deep draft port that is under study in Nome, AK and beyond.
Mike

This opinion piece contains one person's vision of how the Nome/Port Clarence port, AK-2, and rail might look by 2030.

The port:


AK-2 and rail:


Quite the vision!




Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on May 14, 2013, 10:12:28 PM
Many of America's "First Nations" (as the Canadians denote them) have not benefited from the imposition of the American lifestyle on them, to the detriment of their native culture ... I would guess many of these folks would not find it easy to incorporate the changes to their lives brought on by an influx of tourists or business developers.

On the human side:


If the Arctic ice continues to melt away, then the First Nations may face a huge influx of outsiders.


oscar

#38
Quote from: Grzrd on May 16, 2013, 07:31:05 PM

This opinion piece contains one person's vision of how the Nome/Port Clarence port, AK-2, and rail might look by 2030.

The port:

"Waterfront resort"!?  Iced in much of the year, with ocean temps that seem right around freezing the rest of the year?

When I visited Nome in July 2001, I made a furtive attempt to take a dip in the ocean.  I couldn't get in past my ankles.  Much colder than it was at the Arctic beaches of Prudhoe Bay, where I comfortably waded in the ocean in July 1994 and July 2012.

The views from the Nome waterfront are exceedingly boring, as well.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

Grzrd

#39
Quote from: oscar on May 16, 2013, 08:23:55 PM
When I visited Nome in July 2001, I made a furtive attempt to take a dip in the ocean.  I couldn't get in past my ankles.

I suppose you will have a true appreciation of the difficulty in an attempt to swim the Bering Strait this summer.

The Bering Strait Relay Team website.

richllewis

The study that brought about the proposed road to Nome have new contacts as of 03/18/2013. Nothing else has changed on the Western Alaska Access Study. No further information was given out.

There are a lot of irons in the fire concerning proposed roads and other plans that could be done plus all the maintenance chores that need to be done.

cpzilliacus

[Missed this before, sorry for the  long delay in posting a reply.]

Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2013, 08:55:01 AM
But, still, you're imposing your view of what a "better" life would be onto a population who may not agree with your view.

I concede your point.  You are absolutely correct. 

Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2013, 08:55:01 AM
Being able to sell products to a larger market doesn't necessarily equal a "better" life, depending on who you're talking to.  The Amish, for example, are not all of one mind when it comes to selling their products to us English:  many feel that it weakens their cultural autonomy and would therefore not call it a path to a "better" life.

Though a fairly large percentage of the Amish people in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania as well as Amish populations in (nearby) Cecil County, Maryland and St. Mary's County, Maryland (on the other side of the state) do a lot of business with "English" people.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Grzrd

Quote from: Grzrd on March 01, 2013, 10:34:08 PM
This July 20, 2012 article reports that preliminary work has started on the Manley Hot Springs-to-Tanana road

An ADL 419886, DOT Public Right-of-Way for Road to Tanana (Tofty to Tanana), Courtesy Public Notice has been posted.  It includes a link to a map of the proposed 33.43 mile project, including how the currently existing Tofty road will be incorporated into it:


Avalanchez71

Quote from: SP Cook on April 14, 2013, 09:01:28 AM
Seriously, it seems there are something like 5000 people in Nome, and less than 10000 in the entire region.  A search of social statistics shows that the vast majority are not engaged in productive work.  It would cost far less to simply relocate these people than to build 500 miles of road.
That is a pretty commie thought right there.

kkt

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on July 11, 2013, 01:40:08 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on April 14, 2013, 09:01:28 AM
Seriously, it seems there are something like 5000 people in Nome, and less than 10000 in the entire region.  A search of social statistics shows that the vast majority are not engaged in productive work.  It would cost far less to simply relocate these people than to build 500 miles of road.
That is a pretty commie thought right there.

We don't have to relocate the town, but we don't have to build 500 miles of road for them either.  They know it's isolated, if they don't like isolation they don't have to live there.

Bickendan

But... if they don't build the road, then they can't relocate :pan:

oscar

#46
As noted upthread:

1) there's no indication that people in the Nome area want or need to relocate, especially the native peoples living on (and off) their ancestral lands,

2) or that they desperately more access to the rest of the world than they already have (which includes daily cargo/passenger jet flights between Nome and Anchorage, as well as barges in the summer for time-insensitive cargo).

Also, a belated comment on the topic line:  has it been decided that the road to Tanana and ultimately Nome will be numbered as an extension of AK 2 (could get a new route number like AK 12 instead, keeping the AK 2 designation for the stub of the Elliott Highway to Manley Hot Springs bypassed by the new road), or even that it will have a route number (many long and important roads in Alaska are unnumbered)?  Considering that Alaskans give a very low priority to route numbering, it would not surprise me if the route number (if any) for the new road will be among the last things to be decided before the road is opened.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

Alps

Quote from: oscar on July 11, 2013, 07:08:46 PM


Also, a belated comment on the topic line:  has it been decided that the road to Tanana and ultimately Nome will be numbered as an extension of AK 2 (could get a new route number like AK 12 instead, keeping the AK 2 designation for the stub of the Elliott Highway to Manley Hot Springs bypassed by the new road), or even that it will have a route number (many long and important roads in Alaska are unnumbered)?  Considering that Alaskans give a very low priority to route numbering, it would not surprise me if the route number (if any) for the new road will be among the last things to be decided before the road is opened.
AK has plenty of state-maintained roads with no route number, but I would be surprised if this didn't get one due to the publicity around it. 2 seems the most logical choice, but they could go the AK 98 direction and choose something symbolic. The first race to Nome was 1973... so AK 73 should be a distinct possibility.

Brandon

Quote from: Steve on July 11, 2013, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: oscar on July 11, 2013, 07:08:46 PM


Also, a belated comment on the topic line:  has it been decided that the road to Tanana and ultimately Nome will be numbered as an extension of AK 2 (could get a new route number like AK 12 instead, keeping the AK 2 designation for the stub of the Elliott Highway to Manley Hot Springs bypassed by the new road), or even that it will have a route number (many long and important roads in Alaska are unnumbered)?  Considering that Alaskans give a very low priority to route numbering, it would not surprise me if the route number (if any) for the new road will be among the last things to be decided before the road is opened.
AK has plenty of state-maintained roads with no route number, but I would be surprised if this didn't get one due to the publicity around it. 2 seems the most logical choice, but they could go the AK 98 direction and choose something symbolic. The first race to Nome was 1973... so AK 73 should be a distinct possibility.

AK-25.  1925 was the year of the diphtheria serum run from Anchorage.  This is what the 1973 and later races were based on.  Interestingly enough, the route of the new road will follow the route of the serum run fairly well.  I think "Togo-Balto Highway" would be a good name for the road to Nome.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

oscar

Quote from: Brandon on July 12, 2013, 11:32:43 AM
Quote from: Steve on July 11, 2013, 11:59:17 PM
Quote from: oscar on July 11, 2013, 07:08:46 PM


Also, a belated comment on the topic line:  has it been decided that the road to Tanana and ultimately Nome will be numbered as an extension of AK 2 (could get a new route number like AK 12 instead, keeping the AK 2 designation for the stub of the Elliott Highway to Manley Hot Springs bypassed by the new road), or even that it will have a route number (many long and important roads in Alaska are unnumbered)?  Considering that Alaskans give a very low priority to route numbering, it would not surprise me if the route number (if any) for the new road will be among the last things to be decided before the road is opened.
AK has plenty of state-maintained roads with no route number, but I would be surprised if this didn't get one due to the publicity around it. 2 seems the most logical choice, but they could go the AK 98 direction and choose something symbolic. The first race to Nome was 1973... so AK 73 should be a distinct possibility.

AK-25.  1925 was the year of the diphtheria serum run from Anchorage.  This is what the 1973 and later races were based on.  Interestingly enough, the route of the new road will follow the route of the serum run fairly well.  I think "Togo-Balto Highway" would be a good name for the road to Nome.

Well, maybe the western end of the serum run (the part north of the Yukon River).  The rest of the road will more or less follow the Yukon River, and lead to Fairbanks (via Manley HS and Tanana), more than 300 miles north of Anchorage, which even by Alaskan standards is a long way. 

Since Alaskans use highway names much more often than route numbers, ADOT&PF will probably pay more attention to selection of the name than of the route number. 
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html



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