I-69 Ohio River Bridge

[pianocello]

Is the future I-69 Ohio River bridge still going to be a cable-stayed as originally envisioned?

That final decision hasn't been made yet (as of last month).

Besides, the video depicts it as a regular box girder bridge. Based on that, I figure the Mississippi River bridge is also unknown.

I should elaborate on my previous statement. Based on what I've heard, they're still between a box girder, cable-stayed, and a truss system similar to the existing Twin Bridges. Each has its pros and cons, including initial cost, construction duration, maintenance cost over time, and ease of access for maintenance, among others. The final determination will be made as part of the preliminary stage of the design-build process in a few years.

[abqtraveler]

Is the future I-69 Ohio River bridge still going to be a cable-stayed as originally envisioned?

That final decision hasn't been made yet (as of last month).

Besides, the video depicts it as a regular box girder bridge. Based on that, I figure the Mississippi River bridge is also unknown.

I should elaborate on my previous statement. Based on what I've heard, they're still between a box girder, cable-stayed, and a truss system similar to the existing Twin Bridges. Each has its pros and cons, including initial cost, construction duration, maintenance cost over time, and ease of access for maintenance, among others. The final determination will be made as part of the preliminary stage of the design-build process in a few years.

I would think the main span across the Ohio River would be too long to support a box girder structure.  Just looking at the Ohio River in that area, it's about 2,000 feet bank-to-bank. I don't think you could build a box girder bridge without putting one or more piers in the river. Placing bridge piers in the river raises two concerns:  the piers become a navigation hazard to shipping on the river, and the strong currents of the river create a concern for scour that could compromise the bridge piers.  I would argue a for a cable-stayed design with the piers supporting the main span placed on opposite shores to eliminate the concerns over placing the bridge piers in the river.

For reference, the longest box girder span in the world is the Taoer River Bridge in China, with a main span length of 338 meters (1,108 feet), while the world's longest cable-stayed span is on the Russky Bridge in Russia, with a main span of 1,104 meters (3,622 feet).

https://english.cscec.com/CompanyNews/CorporateNews/202206/3530744.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_cable-stayed_bridge_spans

[jnewkirk77]

Most of the bridges across the Ohio in this area have at least three piers in the river. The Glover Cary (Blue) bridge has six. The Twin Bridges, Cummings and Natcher bridges each have three. Scour has never presented a problem, and barge hits (the most common navigational accident) have been extremely rare. Since 2008, the twins have been hit three times, the Cary once, with no damage to either that caused more than a brief closure for inspection purposes.  I found no reports of hits on either the Natcher or Cummings.

[Rick Powell]

Most of the bridges across the Ohio in this area have at least three piers in the river. The Glover Cary (Blue) bridge has six. The Twin Bridges, Cummings and Natcher bridges each have three. Scour has never presented a problem, and barge hits (the most common navigational accident) have been extremely rare. Since 2008, the twins have been hit three times, the Cary once, with no damage to either that caused more than a brief closure for inspection purposes.  I found no reports of hits on either the Natcher or Cummings.

Over the last 20 years or so, vessel collision standards are so rigorous that modern piers are virtually immune to the effects of a runaway single barge or tow collision. As far as scour, it depends on the foundation. Piers or drilled shafts founded in rock are relatively immune to the effects of scour, while friction piles set in sandy loams or clays are more susceptible. As far as bridge spans, lately we've seen 400 to 600 foot navigation spans deemed acceptable by the Coast Guard, depending on the width of the navigable portion and any upstream river bends that make navigation more tricky.

[ITB]

Cross posted from the Update on I-69 Extension in Indiana forum topic:

The contract to build Section 3, the Indiana approach to the proposed I-69 bridge over the Ohio River, was awarded today. ORX Constructors, a joint venture led by Walsh Construction, was the winning bidder. The Constructors JV's bid narrowing beat out a bid by Lunda Construction, a Wisconsin firm. Ragle Inc. of Newburgh, Indiana, also submitted a bid.

After cost proposal price adjustments, the winning bid came in at $185,931,122.20. Lunda's bid, after adjustments, was $187,178,971.00. Both bids were well below the engineer's estimate of $284,140,008.

Examine the official INDOT bid tabulations for this special letting here.

[ARMOURERERIC]

Is that $100M somewhat freed up to advance other projects?

[hbelkins]

Is that $100M somewhat freed up to advance other projects?

It'll probably be eaten up by change orders.

[Rothman]

Is that $100M somewhat freed up to advance other projects?

It'll probably be eaten up by change orders.

Something is screwed up with a $100m underage.  I agree with HB, that the devil will definitely be in construction on this one, except I wouldn't expect it to eat up the entire $100m

[abqtraveler]

Is that $100M somewhat freed up to advance other projects?

If it were me, I would hold that $100M as "contingency." Something tells me that at least two of the bidders may have low-balled their bids to get the job. It reeks of the same stench that the debacle with Section 5 (Bloomington-Martinsville) had, where that bidder low-balled their bid by $80M and the contract was terminated midway through that project because the prime contractor ran out of money to finish the job. I sure hope that doesn't happen here.

[Rothman]

Is that $100M somewhat freed up to advance other projects?

If it were me, I would hold that $100M as "contingency." Something tells me that at least two of the bidders may have low-balled their bids to get the job. It reeks of the same stench that the debacle with Section 5 (Bloomington-Martinsville) had, where that bidder low-balled their bid by $80M and the contract was terminated midway through that project because the prime contractor ran out of money to finish the job. I sure hope that doesn't happen here.

Contingency means that it will get eaten up by change orders, just like HB said.  Contingency is built into PS&E.

[Life in Paradise]

Is that $100M somewhat freed up to advance other projects?

If it were me, I would hold that $100M as "contingency." Something tells me that at least two of the bidders may have low-balled their bids to get the job. It reeks of the same stench that the debacle with Section 5 (Bloomington-Martinsville) had, where that bidder low-balled their bid by $80M and the contract was terminated midway through that project because the prime contractor ran out of money to finish the job. I sure hope that doesn't happen here.

Contingency means that it will get eaten up by change orders, just like HB said.  Contingency is built into PS&E.

What is interesting is that at least two of the bids were close to the same amount.  I wonder what Ragle's bid was.  It may be a case that there were errors in the bid language.

[SEWIGuy]

Is this done intentionally since there are so many unknowns in the building process? So maybe they wrote the RFP a little "loose" because they know a specific bid will be difficult to determine?

[Rick Powell]

What is interesting is that at least two of the bids were close to the same amount.  I wonder what Ragle's bid was.  It may be a case that there were errors in the bid language.

Ragle's bid was $206.2M, so not far off the others for a project of this magnitude. Of the 3 contenders, only Ragle did not receive a cost proposal price adjustment, while both Lunda and ORX did receive reductions. Not sure what the reason for the adjustments were, maybe they had alternative value engineering proposals that cut the "as bid" price that the state accepted. Note that these were "design-build" proposals instead of traditional pay item bids, so there is usually a lot of flexibility in how the contractor meets the design intent. I've seen projects come in 30-40% under estimate before, sometimes it is a blown estimate where they forgot a critical pay item, other times it is just aggressive pricing where the contractor has a means and methods or material pricing advantage over the others. And the possibility of change orders is always there, depending on how accurate the existing conditions and proposed improvements were described pre-bid.

[hbelkins]

Tolls may be off the table for the Ohio River bridge.

https://www.youtube.com/live/3CTtO5xRk1w?si=Q6GzWL-la17Hs5-W&t=4294

Forward to 1:11:30.

[abqtraveler]

Tolls may be off the table for the Ohio River bridge.

https://www.youtube.com/live/3CTtO5xRk1w?si=Q6GzWL-la17Hs5-W&t=4294

Forward to 1:11:30.

That's Governor Beshear expressing his opinion concerning tolls for the Ohio River Bridge, but I'm not going to say it's a foregone conclusion the I-69 bridge won't ultimately be tolled. As Governor Beshear mentioned, Kentucky might have some additional funds they could throw at the bridge, but Indiana would also have to kick in additional funding to make the bridge toll-free.  A free I-69 bridge is not a done deal by a longshot, but at least the conversation is happening.

[Plutonic Panda]

Agreed. I'm more than happy that they're at least having a conversation conversation about it.

[Rick Powell]

Agreed. I'm more than happy that they're at least having a conversation about it.

We have a project in IL that recently went all the way to tolling equipment being designed, ordered, and installed (although never used since the bridge isn't open yet) and money was found, mostly from the state, that eliminated the need for tolling. https://barringtonhills-il.gov/longmeadow-parkway-2024/

[jnewkirk77]

Tolls may be off the table for the Ohio River bridge.

https://www.youtube.com/live/3CTtO5xRk1w?si=Q6GzWL-la17Hs5-W&t=4294

Forward to 1:11:30.

That's Governor Beshear expressing his opinion concerning tolls for the Ohio River Bridge, but I'm not going to say it's a foregone conclusion the I-69 bridge won't ultimately be tolled. As Governor Beshear mentioned, Kentucky might have some additional funds they could throw at the bridge, but Indiana would also have to kick in additional funding to make the bridge toll-free.  A free I-69 bridge is not a done deal by a longshot, but at least the conversation is happening.

Is it OK to be "cautiously confident?" When you look at the boxes the ORX project checks - interstate commerce, improved safety, free flow of traffic, etc. - I think the grant money will come. Especially considering IN & KY are so far along in construction and planning.

[Plutonic Panda]

Indiana section to begin this summer: https://i69ohiorivercrossing.com/?fbclid=IwAR2S2orLO5tBFizY3Xyhj6jPi-clg0kyW6NROUIEPscWLSt6uKQqo5TVP8I_aem_AYYIhsDR2a2MUroF2qefnryVEUMqp1fAGDm-erc3GsJQ1FQrCXYTB_tU-eweCXdQF1k

[The Ghostbuster]

Google Maps has been updated to show construction of future Interstate 69 in Kentucky north of US 41: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8478746,-87.5618769,1475m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu. It's not much, but it's a start.

[abqtraveler]

Google Maps has been updated to show construction of future Interstate 69 in Kentucky north of US 41: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8478746,-87.5618769,1475m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu. It's not much, but it's a start.

Looks like it might have been from last summer when the aerial imagery was taken.

[silverback1065]

are there any plans or maps of the bridge or the approach areas? 

[KelleyCook]

are there any plans or maps of the bridge or the approach areas? 

https://www.in.gov/indot/files/I-69-Ohio-River-Crossing-Section-3-Industry-Forum-Presentation-April-2023.pdf

This presentation was for the design build contract for the Indiana side. Its mainly a new intersection with current I-69 as well as two long bridges over the flood plain.

(note: due to the persnickety river refusing to stay in their legally defined place over the past two centuries,    this Indiana part of the road doesn't actually make it all the way to the Ohio River)

[ilpt4u]

^^^^^^^ I thought I remembered reading the 69 interchange with Veterans Pkwy was redesigned away from a Trumpet to a Freeway Y/Freeway T with Flyovers...and that INDOT pdf confirms

[edwaleni]

Is that $100M somewhat freed up to advance other projects?

If it were me, I would hold that $100M as "contingency." Something tells me that at least two of the bidders may have low-balled their bids to get the job. It reeks of the same stench that the debacle with Section 5 (Bloomington-Martinsville) had, where that bidder low-balled their bid by $80M and the contract was terminated midway through that project because the prime contractor ran out of money to finish the job. I sure hope that doesn't happen here.

Contingency means that it will get eaten up by change orders, just like HB said.  Contingency is built into PS&E.

Illinois (IDOT) has the new Wabash River Bridge for I-64 out for bid currently and its only 60 miles away from the ORX project. So while IDOT has been playing cat and mouse with the issues on this bridge for over 15 years, I don't think its a coincidence they are putting their bids out now at the same time ORX is working on theirs. A significant amount of the pylon design for the Indiana approach to the river will have a high chance of being duplicated for the Wabash River crossing.

Walsh/ORX may feel like they have an inside track on the IDOT effort and can bid low since they will no doubt share resources.