Rural highway upgrade standards

[RoadMaster09]

I know there is a lot of discussion (and in the Fictional threads, talk about new corridor ideas) on the ideal traffic levels for different standards, but:

1) At what point (AADT-wise) should a 2-lane corridor be upgraded to a 4-lane corridor? Presumably, at a minimum, a divided expressway.

2) At what point should a 4-lane divided be converted fully to a freeway (Interstate-grade)? Alternatively, would it be more logical to just build a new 4-lane Interstate-grade freeway immediately replacing a 2-lane corridor?

3) At what point should a 4-lane freeway be widened to 6 lanes?

For all of these, the assumption is that we are dealing with a rural area and an NHS corridor, so it would probably be a US route or an important state route.

[froggie]

1) Depending on which jurisdiction you talk to, the answer generally ranges anywhere from a 5K AADT to a ~12K AADT for a planning level estimate.  The details are a lot more convoluted and complicated, and depend on numerous parameters...for example, hourly traffic density, number of intersecting roads and driveways, crash rate, presence of traffic signals.  Many more than that.

2) Similar to the answer to #1, albeit with a higher daily traffic range.  One state I'm familiar with pegs it at around 30K, but that is not a hard-and-fast rule because of all the other parameters involved.

3) This depends on a mostly-different set of parameters.  Hourly (or, better yet, 15-minute) density rates are still looked at, but so are free flow speed, truck volumes, directional distribution, lane width, interchange spacing (including ramp-to-ramp), median width, shoulder clearance, and frequency of recreational traffic (since RVs drive differently than passenger vehicles and trucks).  There are other parameters involved, but these are the main ones.

Given "typical" values, the AADT threshold for 4 lanes versus 6 can range anywhere from the mid-30Ks to near 50K for rural areas.  Urban areas are typically higher...60-90K range, as a lower Level-of-Service (LOS) threshold is acceptable in urban areas.  Specifics are really going to be highway segment-dependent.

[webny99]

1) At what point (AADT-wise) should a 2-lane corridor be upgraded to a 4-lane corridor? Presumably, at a minimum, a divided expressway.

Depending on which jurisdiction you talk to, the answer generally ranges anywhere from a 5K AADT to a ~12K AADT for a planning level estimate.

I know there are many factors, but 5K sounds very low, at least for this area of the country. I'm sure NY would sneer at anything less than 10K, with an actual widening project being unlikely to occur unless volumes are 15K or higher; there just aren't many rural two-lane roads handling that kind of volume.

[Beltway]

1) At what point (AADT-wise) should a 2-lane corridor be upgraded to a 4-lane corridor? Presumably, at a minimum, a divided expressway.

Depending on which jurisdiction you talk to, the answer generally ranges anywhere from a 5K AADT to a ~12K AADT for a planning level estimate.

I know there are many factors, but 5K sounds very low, at least for this area of the country. I'm sure NY would sneer at anything less than 10K, with an actual widening project being unlikely to occur unless volumes are 15K or higher; there just aren't many rural two-lane roads handling that kind of volume.

Large truck percentages and trip lengths would play a major factor.  If average trip lengths for 50% of the total traffic was over 100 miles, and large truck percentages were over 15%, that would warrant 4 lanes with town bypasses, even with current AADTs of 7,000 or 8,000.

[RoadMaster09]

Large truck percentages and trip lengths would play a major factor.  If average trip lengths for 50% of the total traffic was over 100 miles, and large truck percentages were over 15%, that would warrant 4 lanes with town bypasses, even with current AADTs of 7,000 or 8,000.

I know in some states, especially in the West and Midwest, there are 4-lane divided highways with AADTs around 3,000 or so (in some cases even less), but I wasn't sure if that was normal. Honestly, when building from 2 lanes to 4 lanes on a NHS corridor (generally a US highway but can also be a major state highway) that is not paralleling an Interstate, I think it should always be built to at least partial access control (limited entrances only where necessary, at-grade intersections with minor cross streets, interchanges where signals warranted), which can be upgraded to an Interstate-grade freeway at relatively limited cost.

That wouldn't be the case with busy local traffic routes (such as US routes paralleling Interstates or collector highways) since property access would be more important. However, I'm wondering where the warrant is there since there are many 2-lane highways that are long distance NHS routes, particularly in the West and Upper Midwest.

[sprjus4]

US-58 in Virginia is a good example of a long-distance highway mostly being 4-lanes thanks to extensive widening projects over the past four decades. Between I-85 and Suffolk it has around 8,000 - 13,000 AADT and is the main highway between I-95 South / I-85 South and the Hampton Roads metro area of 1.7 million people. West of there, AADT drops to 5,000 AADT, and creeps as low to near 2,500 AADT in some areas west of Martinsville. It's mostly four-lane with bypasses around every town, though signals and urban segments still exist along the route but holds 4-lanes through.

Once the remainder is four-laned and relocated on new alignment from the existing narrow, extremely windy, steep grade 2-lane road which prohibits trucks, there will likely be an increase of truck traffic heading to I-77 from towns and cities west of I-85 including Danville which is a medium sized metro area. Currently, truck traffic from there has to head to I-81 then south, or find some other viable route because US-58 prohibits trucks.

Through traffic between where US-58 and I-81 meet and Hampton Roads would simply take the all interstate trip up I-81 to I-64. Longer distance, but faster overall thanks to mostly 70 mph speed limits and zero interruptions (on a good day, when I-81 has its weekly major accident that shuts down the highway, it's a different story). Much more preferable than taking US-58 all the way across, even when it's finished to 4-lanes.

[Beltway]

Through traffic between where US-58 and I-81 meet and Hampton Roads would simply take the all interstate trip up I-81 to I-64. Longer distance, but faster overall thanks to mostly 70 mph speed limits and zero interruptions (on a good day, when I-81 has its weekly major accident that shuts down the highway, it's a different story). Much more preferable than taking US-58 all the way across, even when it's finished to 4-lanes.

That traffic wouldn't use the section between Damascus and Independence and there are no plans to 4-lane that section.

Traffic from I-81 would use I-77 at Fort Chiswell to connect to US-58 and then take US-58 to South Hampton Roads.

US-58 times will improve when the 4-laning is complete between Hillsville and Stuart.

Wytheville to Norfolk, Google Maps Directions
-- I-81 and I-64 -- 346 miles and 5:20 time
-- I-81 to I-77 to US-58 -- 318 miles and 5:40 time

If 10 minutes could be knocked off of US-58 by those projects then a preference survey might be somewhere around 50-50.  I would then favor US-58 because of not having to deal with I-81 and the lower Peninsula and the HRBT, and traveling 28 less miles.

Wytheville to Hampton, Google Maps Directions
-- I-81 and I-64 -- 329 miles and 4:57 time
-- I-81 to I-77 to US-58 -- 329 miles and 5:49 time

Hampton and Newport News would definitely favor I-81 and I-64.

[hbelkins]

West Virginia has built its four-lane routes as mostly at-grade expressways with grade-separated interchanges in certain spots. I'm not sure of the logic behind some of the decisions, however. On Corridor D, for example, there's an interchange at US 50 and WV 16, while the other state routes that US 50 crosses between Parkersburg and the beginning of the freeway outside of Clarksburg have at-grades.

And the new part of Corridor H has grade separations at Patterson Creek Road (CR 5), US 220, and WV 259/WV 29. Other major intersections (WV 93 near Mount Storm Lake, WV 93 near Scherr, Knobley Road, etc.) are at-grades.

[RoadMaster09]

West Virginia has built its four-lane routes as mostly at-grade expressways with grade-separated interchanges in certain spots. I'm not sure of the logic behind some of the decisions, however. On Corridor D, for example, there's an interchange at US 50 and WV 16, while the other state routes that US 50 crosses between Parkersburg and the beginning of the freeway outside of Clarksburg have at-grades.

And the new part of Corridor H has grade separations at Patterson Creek Road (CR 5), US 220, and WV 259/WV 29. Other major intersections (WV 93 near Mount Storm Lake, WV 93 near Scherr, Knobley Road, etc.) are at-grades.

Are any of the at-grades signalized? That should be the critical indicator. Those should be replaced by interchanges/grade separations. It's a bit different when dealing with minor side roads, since there is relatively little traffic on them.

[froggie]

^ Yes, most of them have at least a few signals.  The notable exception is Corridor H east of Elkins.  Not enough traffic on that to warrant signals.  But 19, 50, 119, and H west of Elkins (to name some examples) all have signals.

[thspfc]

1. In Wisconsin the cut-off is around 15k when they start thinking about expanding to an expressway.

2. When the at-grade intersections become dangerous to the point where you would be nervous turning on/off the expressway. This varies depending on several factors, like AADT of the smaller road, truck traffic volumes, and topography.

3. At around 30-35k, or if micropassing trucks is a big issue.

[Revive 755]

2) At what point should a 4-lane divided be converted fully to a freeway (Interstate-grade)? Alternatively, would it be more logical to just build a new 4-lane Interstate-grade freeway immediately replacing a 2-lane corridor?

2. When the at-grade intersections become dangerous to the point where you would be nervous turning on/off the expressway. This varies depending on several factors, like AADT of the smaller road, truck traffic volumes, and topography.

I would add when multiple intersections start meeting traffic signal warrants.

For the second part of RoadMaster09's second question, I would go with when ROW is available, there is a desire to keep the corridor free flowing, and it is likely that developments may require multiple intersections to be signalized within a certain number of years of opening the four lane facility.

[keithvh]

This isn't the best answer in the world, but you sort of "know it when you see it"

Both US-24 from Colorado Springs to Limon, and US-34 from Wiggins (I-76) to Greeley, are mostly 2-lane.  Traffic counts aren't the highest in the world: generally maxing out at 7-8K and in spots as low as 3K.

But there is (1) considerable truck traffic, (2) traffic on those roads FLIES pretty quickly, especially given it's very barren space, and (3) the roads are major connectors for traffic from a given part of the Front Range to be able to access east-bound interstates (vice versa for Eastern Plains and Kansas/Nebraska travelers to reach areas North and South of Denver).

Those roads need to be 4-lane divided expressways.  I don't like driving either of them right now.

[wxfree]

1) At what point (AADT-wise) should a 2-lane corridor be upgraded to a 4-lane corridor? Presumably, at a minimum, a divided expressway.

Depending on which jurisdiction you talk to, the answer generally ranges anywhere from a 5K AADT to a ~12K AADT for a planning level estimate.

I know there are many factors, but 5K sounds very low, at least for this area of the country. I'm sure NY would sneer at anything less than 10K, with an actual widening project being unlikely to occur unless volumes are 15K or higher; there just aren't many rural two-lane roads handling that kind of volume.

TxDOT uses 5,000 as a general limit on which two-lane roads should be made into Super 2.  At levels higher than that, they prefer to look at a four or five lane road, or a divided road.

Also, there are quite a few roads that are regional travel routes, but not commuter routes, in rural areas between cities.  The average traffic may be low, but weekend traffic can be severe for a two-lane road.  I know of a couple of places where long lines are common on the weekend, and traffic is still pretty thick where the road expands into a freeway, because the incoming traffic tends to happen in bursts after the leader of each line gets to the freeway.  These roads with reversed traffic loads (2 busy days instead of 5) are easy to be overlook if only averages are used.

[webny99]

Also, there are quite a few roads that are regional travel routes, but not commuter routes, in rural areas between cities.  The average traffic may be low, but weekend traffic can be severe for a two-lane road.  I know of a couple of places where long lines are common on the weekend, and traffic is still pretty thick where the road expands into a freeway, because the incoming traffic tends to happen in bursts after the leader of each line gets to the freeway.  These roads with reversed traffic loads (2 busy days instead of 5) are easy to be overlook if only averages are used.

Spot-on description of the NY 104 corridor in Wayne County. It is somewhat of a commuter route west of Williamson, but the stretch from Williamson east to Wolcott easily warrants four lanes from Friday to Sunday, May to October.
Westbound traffic bunches up even on the freeway segment near Rochester; the root cause being the timing of the lights and the long strings of cars entering from the two lane segment making it challenging for anyone to get ahead of the pack.

[sprjus4]

Traffic from I-81 would use I-77 at Fort Chiswell to connect to US-58 and then take US-58 to South Hampton Roads.

US-58 times will improve when the 4-laning is complete between Hillsville and Stuart.

Wytheville to Norfolk, Google Maps Directions
-- I-81 and I-64 -- 346 miles and 5:20 time
-- I-81 to I-77 to US-58 -- 318 miles and 5:40 time

If 10 minutes could be knocked off of US-58 by those projects then a preference survey might be somewhere around 50-50.  I would then favor US-58 because of not having to deal with I-81 and the lower Peninsula and the HRBT, and traveling 28 less miles.

Doing the math, it would shave roughly 4-5 minutes off at a 60 mph speed limit, assuming VDOT puts a 60 mph speed limit. A lot of the recent widenings have only gotten 55 mph speed limits and with a project going through the mountains, it may well have a 55 mph speed limit.

I've already talked about how most average drivers would prefer interstate highways over arterials. It may work for you, but the average person would not want to drive 5 hours, 400 miles on an arterial highway that has 60 mph rural speed limits, and urban segments along the way. A tractor trailer may find it beneficial to shave miles, but the average Joe would really only consider it if there was a wreck on I-81 or congestion on I-64.

Not to mention, if one was to use US-58 to avoid mess on I-81 and I-64, Google Maps routing still indicates it's currently 5 minutes faster, or when US-58 is completed, the same, to dip into North Carolina on interstate highways (I-77 to I-74 to I-85) then finally come back up at South Hill. That routing would likely attract drivers (not tractor trailers) moreso than arterial US-58.

Also another thing - by the time US-58 is widened to 4-lanes, I-64 could be 6-lanes all the way to Richmond, and the HRBT expansion would have been completed to 8-lanes during peak hours. The MMMBT also offers a good alternative. It usually only is congested at peak times, where the HRBT congests whenever it feels like it.

I'd favor I-81 to I-64, mostly due to the interstate factor. I'm sure plenty other would, though as you mention, some like yourself may chose to take US-58 for a stress free drive. US-58 is a nice drive, but again, I'd only use it when needed.

We'll have to revisit a year or two after US-58 is widened, and see how the traffic counts have changed on that route.

[kphoger]

I've already talked about how most average drivers would prefer interstate highways over arterials. It may work for you, but the average person would not want to drive 5 hours, 400 miles on an arterial highway that has 60 mph rural speed limits, and urban segments along the way.

My money is on the average driver nowadays going whatever way his sat-nav device tells him to, and that he doesn't even think twice about what type of routes those are or what alternatives exist.

[sprjus4]

I've already talked about how most average drivers would prefer interstate highways over arterials. It may work for you, but the average person would not want to drive 5 hours, 400 miles on an arterial highway that has 60 mph rural speed limits, and urban segments along the way.

My money is on the average driver nowadays going whatever way his sat-nav device tells him to, and that he doesn't even think twice about what type of routes those are or what alternatives exist.

In that case, it'd still likely be I-81 to I-64 unless the sat-nav device has traffic information and indicates a massive wreck, and in that case would route I-77 to I-74 to I-85 to US-58.

I'd think of US-58 to be the last option if there's issues with both of those routes.

[Beltway]

Traffic from I-81 would use I-77 at Fort Chiswell to connect to US-58 and then take US-58 to South Hampton Roads.
US-58 times will improve when the 4-laning is complete between Hillsville and Stuart.
Wytheville to Norfolk, Google Maps Directions
-- I-81 and I-64 -- 346 miles and 5:20 time
-- I-81 to I-77 to US-58 -- 318 miles and 5:40 time
If 10 minutes could be knocked off of US-58 by those projects then a preference survey might be somewhere around 50-50.  I would then favor US-58 because of not having to deal with I-81 and the lower Peninsula and the HRBT, and traveling 28 less miles.

Doing the math, it would shave roughly 4-5 minutes off at a 60 mph speed limit, assuming VDOT puts a 60 mph speed limit. A lot of the recent widenings have only gotten 55 mph speed limits and with a project going through the mountains, it may well have a 55 mph speed limit.
I've already talked about how most average drivers would prefer interstate highways over arterials.

Really?  You have survey data?  So how is the 4-lane undivided (excepting major intersections) US-460, not even built to 4-lane divided rural arterial standards, posted as an official alternate to I-64 between Richmond and South Hampton Roads?  Those dedicated VMS signs with the comparative time estimates for each route make it an official alternate.

US-460 clearly is a credible alternate to I-64 between those two areas, especially at major peak periods.

It may work for you, but the average person would not want to drive 5 hours, 400 miles on an arterial highway that has 60 mph rural speed limits, and urban segments along the way.

318 miles between the decision point and Norfolk, and you ignore the fact that US-58 is 28 miles shorter.

A tractor trailer may find it beneficial to shave miles, but the average Joe would really only consider it if there was a wreck on I-81 or congestion on I-64.

There is considerable possibility of encountering such between Norfolk and Wytheville, and be committed to the route before the incident occurs.

A completed 4-lane US-58 would have a high reliability factor with a low probability of incident delay.

Also another thing - by the time US-58 is widened to 4-lanes, I-64 could be 6-lanes all the way to Richmond, and the HRBT expansion would have been completed to 8-lanes during peak hours.

I-64 won't be 6-lanes all the way to Richmond in 2023.  Then there are the issues at Afton Mountain and along I-81.

[Beltway]

In that case, it'd still likely be I-81 to I-64 unless the sat-nav device has traffic information and indicates a massive wreck, and in that case would route I-77 to I-74 to I-85 to US-58.

And of the wreck doesn't occur until you are committed to the route and partway down the route?

That N.C. route is 34 miles longer than US-58, and almost 1/2 of it is non-Interstate, and it looks very circuitous on a map, more than the reality, but it just plain looks nasty.  I can't imagine anyone but a roadgeek might use that between Wytheville and Norfolk.

[sprjus4]

Really?  You have survey data?

Do -you- have survey data? 

So how is the 4-lane undivided (excepting major intersections) US-460, not even built to 4-lane divided rural arterial standards, posted as an official alternate to I-64 between Richmond and South Hampton Roads?  Those dedicated VMS signs with the comparative time estimates for each route make it an official alternate.

The stretch of I-64 between Richmond and Hampton Roads has numerous issues, daily congestion, tunnels, etc. far more than I-64 and I-81 west of Richmond.

And like you said - it's an "alternate". Yes, I said drivers may chose to use US-58 as an "alternate", but it's not going to be the main route. On a good day, I-81 to I-64 will be preferred by most, as it currently is. If there's horrible congestion, probably not.

I'll use US-460 if I-64 has congestion. If I-64 is clear, I will take I-64 hands down, no questions asked.

US-460 clearly is a credible alternate to I-64 between those two areas, especially at major peak periods.

Agreed.

you ignore the fact that US-58 is 28 miles shorter.

Do you think that a driver of a passenger vehicle cares about a 28 mile difference? That's a wash on a long-distance trip like that. I've made the same argument regarding other highways.

If distance was a big thing, all the traffic would get off at Roanoke, and take the 4-lane US-460 all the way. Less distance than I-81 to I-64 is, and not much slower. But most people don't. They continue to stay on 70 mph interstate highways all the way to Hampton Roads.

US-58 will be more beneficial as a shortcut for tractor trailers if anything.

A completed 4-lane US-58 would have a high reliability factor with a low probability of incident delay.

Once I-81 has $2.2 billion worth of upgrades, reliability on that highway will be higher, and I-64 is generally fine until east of Richmond. Once 6-lanes is completed and the HRBT is completed, reliability on that highway will be higher.

I-64 won't be 6-lanes all the way to Richmond in 2023.

Is US-58 fully funded and under construction or close to construction? I'll believe it when you provide official links and sources.

Then there are the issues at Afton Mountain and along I-81.

I-81 will be have improvements over the next 5-10 years that will fix issues on that highway, some smaller improvements even began yesterday with the funding officially in place.

Afton Mountain isn't really an issue? 6-lanes over it would be nice for slower trucks, but major delays are rare up there.

That N.C. route is 34 miles longer than US-58, and almost 1/2 of it is non-Interstate, and it looks very circuitous on a map, more than the reality, but it just plain looks nasty.  I can't imagine anyone but a roadgeek might use that between Wytheville and Norfolk.

False. 1/2 of it may not be interstate posted, but it is all 65 - 70 mph freeway. It's also apart of Future I-74, and when the Winston-Salem Bypass is completed in the next few years (currently under construction), that will make the drive even easier as traffic will be able to bypass Winston-Salem on a 6-lane rural 65 mph freeway, as opposed to current substandard, congestion prone 55 mph urban freeway through there now.

If nobody would use it, why does Google route me that way between Wytheville and Emporia during non-peak hours?

I-81 to I-64 is circuitous and 30 miles slower than US-460, but most people use it anyways, and Google routes that way.

Poor argument.

Again, most passenger vehicle drivers aren't strict on mileage as you continue to spew and claim. 20-30 miles per gallon, and fuel efficiency in vehicles make this a wash. These are huge tractor trailers with 3-5 miles per gallon, and low fuel efficiency.

[Beltway]

Really?  You have survey data?

Do -you- have survey data? 

YOU made the claim.

So how is the 4-lane undivided (excepting major intersections) US-460, not even built to 4-lane divided rural arterial standards, posted as an official alternate to I-64 between Richmond and South Hampton Roads?  Those dedicated VMS signs with the comparative time estimates for each route make it an official alternate.

The stretch of I-64 between Richmond and Hampton Roads has numerous issues, daily congestion, tunnels, etc. far more than I-64 and I-81 west of Richmond.

Reason to avoid it if possible, especially at peak travel times.

And like you said - it's an "alternate". Yes, I said drivers may chose to use US-58 as an "alternate", but it's not going to be the main route. On a good day, I-81 to I-64 will be preferred by most, as it currently is. If there's horrible congestion, probably not.

Again, where is the survey data?  YOU made the claim, YOU provide the verification.

I'll use US-460 if I-64 has congestion. If I-64 is clear, I will take I-64 hands down, no questions asked.

Again, you don't know ahead of time when you commit to a route whether there will be serious congestion and/or a major incident(s), that occurs -after- you are committed to the route and partway down the route.

In that case your goose is cooked.

you ignore the fact that US-58 is 28 miles shorter.

Do you think that a driver of a passenger vehicle cares about a 28 mile difference? That's a wash on a long-distance trip like that. I've made the same argument regarding other highways.

It is no "wash" especially for vehicles that get poorer mileage, when that is about 10% of the trip, that added to the issues along I-81 and parts of I-64.

If distance was a big thing, all the traffic would get off at Roanoke, and take the 4-lane US-460 all the way. Less distance than I-81 to I-64 is, and not much slower. But most people don't. They continue to stay on 70 mph interstate highways all the way to Hampton Roads.

US-460 has the aforementioned issues where parts don't meet 4-lane divided arterial standards, and you have to use an urbanized section to connect eastward from I-581.

Nevertheless, I would normally utilize US-460 and US-360 between Richmond and Roanoke, as it is a much more pleasant and reliable trip, it is 25 miles shorter, the times are within a few minutes.  Doesn't involve the undivided sections east of Petersburg.

US-58 will be more beneficial as a shortcut for tractor trailers if anything.

Beneficial for 4-wheelers as well.

A completed 4-lane US-58 would have a high reliability factor with a low probability of incident delay.

Once I-81 has $2.2 billion worth of upgrades, reliability on that highway will be higher, and I-64 is generally fine until east of Richmond. Once 6-lanes is completed and the HRBT is completed, reliability on that highway will be higher.

28 miles of I-64 widening is as yet unfunded.  How much of I-81 between Wytheville and Staunton will be widened?

I-64 won't be 6-lanes all the way to Richmond in 2023.

Is US-58 fully funded and under construction or close to construction? I'll believe it when you provide official links and sources.

Crooked Oak, Lovers Leap and Vesta
http://usroute58.com/
http://syip.virginiadot.org/Pages/lineitemDetails.aspx?syp_scenario_id=247&line_item_id=27339
http://syip.virginiadot.org/Pages/lineitemDetails.aspx?syp_scenario_id=247&line_item_id=27341
http://syip.virginiadot.org/Pages/lineitemDetails.aspx?syp_scenario_id=247&line_item_id=27342

That N.C. route is 34 miles longer than US-58, and almost 1/2 of it is non-Interstate, and it looks very circuitous on a map, more than the reality, but it just plain looks nasty.  I can't imagine anyone but a roadgeek might use that between Wytheville and Norfolk.

False. 1/2 of it may not be interstate posted, but it is all 65 - 70 mph freeway. It's also apart of Future I-74, and when the Winston-Salem Bypass is completed in the next few years (currently under construction), that will make the drive even easier as traffic will be able to bypass Winston-Salem on a 6-lane rural 65 mph freeway, as opposed to current substandard, congestion prone 55 mph urban freeway through there now.

You still have to use US-58 east of South Hill all the way to Norfolk.

If nobody would use it, why does Google route me that way between Wytheville and Emporia during non-peak hours?

A bug in the system?  Why only in non-peak hours?  Why go 34 extra miles and have to deal with the central N.C. major metros?

Why go 34 extra miles and give Murphy's Law that many more miles for something to go wrong on the highway?

Again, most passenger vehicle drivers aren't strict on mileage as you continue to spew and claim.

Nothing "strict" about 30 miles more on a 300-mile trip.

20-30 miles per gallon, and fuel efficiency in vehicles make this a wash. These are huge tractor trailers with 3-5 miles per gallon, and low fuel efficiency.

What about an SUV that gets 12 to 15 mpg, and then even less when heavily loaded and/or pulling a trailer?

[sprjus4]

YOU made the claim.

And you countered my claim. If you're going to counter my claim, produce the data.

From my experience, most drivers would prefer interstate highways over arterial highways. If you can counter that, that's fine, provide it. I'm sharing what I'm aware of.

Reason to avoid it if possible, especially at peak travel times.

Take VA-288 or I-295 to US-460.

Again, where is the survey data?  YOU made the claim, YOU provide the verification.

When US-58 is 4-laned, let's take a look at the traffic data. I'm willing to bet traffic counts aren't going increase significantly along US-58, and will remain generally static on the existing routing. Correction, truck traffic counts will increase. Not so sure about 2-axle vehicles.

Again, you don't know ahead of time when you commit to a route whether there will be serious congestion and/or a major incident(s), that occurs -after- you are committed to the route and partway down the route.

Get off and go around it. This past weekend, coming back from Richmond on I-64, there was a wreck in the widening work zone that had a lane closed - massive congestion. I got off at VA-143, dipped around it, and got back on at VA-199. No problems. It's not that hard. I'd rather stick with interstates and bypass congestion when needed rather than take an arterial route for 300+ miles. Now, if I-64 and I-81 had a large amount of congestion overall, that would be something to avoid and indeed take an improved US-58.

It is no "wash" especially for vehicles that get poorer mileage, when that is about 10% of the trip

Those vehicles can take the shorter route. Us 70% who don't have mileage issues will continue sticking with I-81 and I-64 overall, and the new 20%, including yourself, who would prefer an improved US-58 will go to that.

US-460 has the aforementioned issues where parts don't meet 4-lane divided arterial standards, and you have to use an urbanized section to connect eastward from I-581.

Divided or not - is there a difference? It's 55 mph rural highway that goes through a few towns. It adequately serves traffic with no issues. Just because there isn't a 40 foot grassy median doesn't change or impact travel times.

As for Roanoke, you don't use I-581 at all. You take I-81 to US-220 Alt, then that down to US-460 east. That bypasses your "urbanized" section.

Nevertheless, I would normally utilize US-460 and US-360 between Richmond and Roanoke, as it is a much more pleasant and reliable trip, it is 25 miles shorter, the times are within a few minutes.

That's fine - that's your preference. That doesn't mean because it's your preference that 80% of other people except "road geeks" are going follow it. You don't seem to have a problem driving hundreds of miles of arterial highways when an interstate option is available. You've followed these highways' progress and have driven them for decades. Not everybody is like that - and quite frankly from my experience as noted above, most people aren't accustomed like that and would still rather follow interstate highways.

For me, I-64 to I-81 would be the preferred route from Richmond to Roanoke. 25 miles is a wash in my case. It's already my preferred route from Norfolk to Roanoke.

Doesn't involve the undivided sections east of Petersburg.

Good for you.

A bug in the system?  Why only in non-peak hours?  Why go 34 extra miles and have to deal with the central N.C. major metros?

I-77 to I-74 to I-85 to US-58 is still less mileage than I-81 to I-64 is - so your question would still apply to the majority of drivers who use I-81 to I-64 as well.

It's only non-peak hours now because of congestion in Winston-Salem during peak hours that really choke things down. The Winston-Salem I-74 6-lane 65 mph rural freeway bypass is currently under construction, and not only will it avoid Downtown and 55 mph speed limits, it will also shave 6 miles off the trip now that I'm looking at it on a map. So you can take your 34 extra miles down to 28 miles.

With the completion of the Winston-Salem Bypass, travelers will have a bypass around Winston-Salem that will shave 6 miles and 10 minutes off the current trip - and it's currently the same amount of travel time taking US-58 all the way, so now that NC "dip down" will be even faster than US-58 when the $1.7 billion bypass is completed in the next few years.

Travelers will also be able to bypass rush hour congestion in Greensboro by using I-73 to I-85 around the south side - that adds 3 additional miles, and there's not much urban areas it passes through east of there.

Now that I'm thinking about it, when the Winston-Salem Bypass is completed, I-77 to I-74 to I-85 may be better than I-64 to I-81, and it will certainly still be faster than US-58 with the completion of the Winston-Salem Bypass.

Nothing "strict" about 30 miles more on a 300-mile trip.

I'll go 50 miles more. It doesn't really affect much in my case. If it's faster or similar travel times, I'll stick with the interstates. Mileage isn't a big factor for me - nor is it to a lot of drivers.

And yes, I know there's people like tractor trailers and certain vehicles that are mileage strict - and they can take their routes as they please.

Crooked Oak, Lovers Leap and Vesta
http://usroute58.com/
http://syip.virginiadot.org/Pages/lineitemDetails.aspx?syp_scenario_id=247&line_item_id=27339
http://syip.virginiadot.org/Pages/lineitemDetails.aspx?syp_scenario_id=247&line_item_id=27341
http://syip.virginiadot.org/Pages/lineitemDetails.aspx?syp_scenario_id=247&line_item_id=27342

By 2024, the Winston-Salem Bypass will be completed (it's already under construction now, you can see it on Google Maps aerial), and that will shave about 10 minutes of travel time off the NC dip, and bypass the congested Winston-Salem Downtown area and will beat US-58 travel time wise. And remember - it's still even longer to take I-64 to I-81, so if you claim it's just "roadgeeks" taking the southern route, you better call the majority of drivers who use I-64 to I-81 "roadgeeks" as well.

[Beltway]

Again, you don't know ahead of time when you commit to a route whether there will be serious congestion and/or a major incident(s), that occurs -after- you are committed to the route and partway down the route.

Get off and go around it. This past weekend, coming back from Richmond on I-64, there was a wreck in the widening work zone that had a lane closed - massive congestion. I got off at VA-143, dipped around it, and got back on at VA-199. No problems. It's not that hard. I'd rather stick with interstates and bypass congestion when needed rather than take an arterial route for 300+ miles.

You know fullwell it is not that simple.  You have to know where the blockage is, what are the alternate routes, and then deal with the congestion on those alternates.

Given limited data, it may be better to stay in the mess on the Interstate rather than shoot craps and wind up in a worse situation if you leave.

How about when I was heading north on I-81 at Fort Chiswell and VMS said that the highway was blocked by a truck wreck at Christiansburg?  That is a tough nut to crack for wherever you are heading.  Richmond in my case, but how about Washington?  Harrisburg?  New York?

US-460 has the aforementioned issues where parts don't meet 4-lane divided arterial standards, and you have to use an urbanized section to connect eastward from I-581.

Divided or not - is there a difference? It's 55 mph rural highway that goes through a few towns. It adequately serves traffic with no issues. Just because there isn't a 40 foot grassy median doesn't change or impact travel times.

Those towns don't have bypasses, and travel times are definitely slower than on US-460 west of Petersburg.

As for Roanoke, you don't use I-581 at all. You take I-81 to US-220 Alt, then that down to US-460 east. That bypasses your "urbanized" section.

Diagonal route, 5 miles longer than I-581 to US-460.

Nevertheless, I would normally utilize US-460 and US-360 between Richmond and Roanoke, as it is a much more pleasant and reliable trip, it is 25 miles shorter, the times are within a few minutes.

That's fine - that's your preference. That doesn't mean because it's your preference that 80% of other people except "road geeks" are going follow it. You don't seem to have a problem driving hundreds of miles of arterial highways when an interstate option is available. You've followed these highways' progress and have driven them for decades. Not everybody is like that - and quite frankly from my experience as noted above, most people aren't accustomed like that and would still rather follow interstate highways.

Again, you are making claims about what most people do, without citing any empirical data.

Why only in non-peak hours?  Why go 34 extra miles and have to deal with the central N.C. major metros?

I-77 to I-74 to I-85 to US-58 is still less mileage than I-81 to I-64 is - so your question would still apply to the majority of drivers who use I-81 to I-64 as well.

A couple miles less.  Dipping well down into the Tar Heel State when traveling between western Virginia and southeastern Virginia is non-intuitive.  About 40% of that trip is non-Interstate, and I thought you didn't like routes like that.

It's only non-peak hours now because of congestion in Winston-Salem during peak hours that really choke things down. The Winston-Salem I-74 6-lane 65 mph rural freeway bypass is currently under construction, and not only will it avoid Downtown and 55 mph speed limits, it will also shave 6 miles off the trip now that I'm looking at it on a map. So you can take your 34 extra miles down to 28 miles.

Looks like only 2 miles, 3 at best.

Why deal with Winston, Greensboro, and Raleigh-Durham at all if you don't need to?

And remember - it's still even longer to take I-64 to I-81, so if you claim it's just "roadgeeks" taking the southern route, you better call the majority of drivers who use I-64 to I-81 "roadgeeks" as well.

You seem to have a love affair with Interstate highways.  They often provide optimum routing, but not always.

You can take an all-Interstate route between Richmond (or Washington) and Buffalo NY, but guess what - it is not the preferred route between those cities.

[sprjus4]

You know fullwell it is not that simple.  You have to know where the blockage is, what are the alternate routes, and then deal with the congestion on those alternates.

Waze or Google Maps are your friend in that situation. I didn't know of the detour routing around Williamsburg until Waze re-routed me around the congestion automatically. I followed it, and sure enough, it was 45-55 mph highway, and avoided a 3 mile backup on the interstate - which was packed the entire way, and now being forced down to 1 lane.

Given limited data, it may be better to stay in the mess on the Interstate rather than shoot craps and wind up in a worse situation if you leave.

See my comments above.

How about when I was heading north on I-81 at Fort Chiswell and VMS said that the highway was blocked by a truck wreck at Christiansburg?  That is a tough nut to crack for wherever you are heading.  Richmond in my case, but how about Washington?  Harrisburg?  New York?

Where at Christiansburg? If it was north of US-460, then four-lane US-460 is a detour around it. If south of US-460, US-11.

Those towns don't have bypasses, and travel times are definitely slower than on US-460 west of Petersburg.

7 minutes slower than a consistent 60 mph divided highway. Current travel time 57 minutes for 50 miles, at 60 mph, that's 50 minutes. If you're strict on mileage, still a good option.

If they had built the toll road, that would have shaved off 15 minutes, 50 miles at 70 mph is 42 minutes.

Diagonal route, 5 miles longer than I-581 to US-460.

Closer to 1.5 miles. Check before you post. Do a custom route, and click on the I-81 NB lanes before the I-581 departure, then click on the US-460 east lanes after the US-220 alt junction. It will give you detailed routing info, times, and distances.

I-581 to US-460 is 11 miles, 17 minutes. I-81 to US-220 Alt is 12.5 miles, 15 minutes.

The first option would likely be longer during congestion - I say that from experience as I've used that route before to Norfolk. Still prefer I-81 to I-64 overall personally.

Again, you are making claims about what most people do, without citing any empirical data.

I said above from my experience, from people I know, people I've talked to, etc. the overall preference are interstate highways. And I'm not counting anyone within this forum, rather people I know personally.

If your experiences with people you know outside of this forum and not from this forum speaks differently, provide a counter. I'm just sharing what my experience with it is.

Looks like only 2 miles, 3 at best.

Why deal with Winston, Greensboro, and Raleigh-Durham at all if you don't need to?

After drawing out the routing of the new I-74 on Google My Maps after drawing it out exactly following the design plans, and comparing it to the existing route, it's in reality about 4 miles, not the 6 or 2 we predicted. The current routing is 16 miles, the bypass is 12 miles. About 10 minutes of travel time on the bypass routing (65 mph), and 17 minutes on the current routing (55-60 mph).

EDIT - Here's a detailed map that depicts the beltway - https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=8c59239de60146cbb2d6f8ce8f190494

The segment between I-40 Business and and US-311 is under construction, with the segment between US-158 and I-40 Business scheduled to open at the end of the year. The remaining segments between I-40 and I-74 north of Winston-Salem are slated to begin construction in the next couple of years, and will be almost or fully completed by the 2024 scheduled opening of the US-58 four-lane.

The $1.7 billion 6-lane 65 mph 30-mile freeway (consisting of I-74 and I-274) will be toll free when completed, so paying tolls won't be an obstacle to taking this faster routing over US-58.

The current routing runs through the heart of Downtown Winston-Salem on 4-lane urban 55 mph freeway, whereas the bypass is a 6-lane rural 65 mph freeway that completely bypasses it. As for Greensboro, adding 2 miles of the trip would route you onto the Greensboro Bypass (I-73 and I-85) if there happens to be some congestion there and avoid it, the short Durham stretch of I-85 is 8-lanes wide with auxiliary lanes between the exits, wide enough I've never witnessed any congestion on that stretch, even during the heart of rush hour. You don't pass through Raleigh on that route, I-85 does not go through Raleigh.

You can do a rush hour trip on the southern dip and bypass all of the metropolitan areas once I-74 is built around Winston-Salem and maintain interstate speeds with no stop lights, no slower speed zones, etc. between Hillsville and South Hill.

Right now Google gives me these options from Wytheville to Norfolk -
- I-77 to I-74 to I-85 to US-58 - 5 hours 39 minutes, 351 miles
- I-81 to US-460 - 5 hours 45 minutes, 316 miles
- I-81 to I-64 - 5 hours 48 minutes, 346 miles

Currently, it's predicting rush hour traffic by the time arriving in Norfolk, so it's advising to not go that way. US-58 isn't even an option that someone driving would be given, except during rush hour in Winston-Salem, which of course, will be fixed by 2024 when I-74 is completed. You have to do a custom route to create that. After doing a custom route, I see I-77 to US-58 is 5 hours 47 minutes, 317 miles.

US-58 will have it's travel time shaved by 5 minutes if the relocated / widened US-58 is completed, and the Winston-Salem routing will have 7 minutes shaved when completed. Travel times could look something like this when the Winston-Salem Bypass and US-58 relocation / widening is completed, and congestion is being factored in at Hampton Roads.

- I-77 to I-74 to I-85 to US-58 - 5 hours 32 minutes, 347 miles
- I-77 to US-58 - 5 hours, 42 minutes, 317 miles
- I-81 to I-64 - 5 hours 48 minutes, 346 miles

I-77 to I-74 to I-85 to US-58 still looks the better choice over US-58 in this case time wise. If I was going such a route in 2024 or beyond, I would pick the former. 10 minutes faster, and interstate routing over arterial. The 30 miles in that case is a wash for me, and as more and more vehicles are becoming fuel efficient, mileage will be less and less a factor for passenger vehicles.

Dipping well down into the Tar Heel State when traveling between western Virginia and southeastern Virginia is non-intuitive.  About 40% of that trip is non-Interstate, and I thought you didn't like routes like that.

If there's a wreck on I-81 or I'm timed to get into Norfolk at rush hour, I'd rather do the dip than US-58 all the way across. See my time comparison above. Yes, South Hill to Norfolk is arterial, but Hillsville to South Hill is interstate, and would have bypasses of every metropolitan area, and mostly be a traffic free ride and interstate speeds.

Also, more places to stop on the dip routing. Fast food restaurants, truck stops, rest areas, etc. Don't see much of that on US-58, and having more of those options is another factor driving me towards the southern routing. And in 2024 when US-58 and Winston-Salem are completed, the dip will be 10 minutes faster because of time and mileage shaved from the bypass. Proven above.

You can take an all-Interstate route between Richmond (or Washington) and Buffalo NY, but guess what - it is not the preferred route between those cities.

It's only 4 minutes slower per Google Maps. I would definitely consider it an option, and if traveling at night, I would definitely prefer that over the 2-lane, windy roadway for 150 miles.

It's preference. If you don't like going the extra few minutes and additional miles, then don't. If you do, then do. I'm not going to change my routing preferences because you have different preferences, and just as likely, you're not going to change yours because I have different ones.