OkDOT is proposing to reconstruct the I-44/US-75 interchange in Tulsa. The project will also affect I-44 from I-244 to the east side of the Arkansas river bridge. Not sure if that means they will rebuild that bridge. I haven't been on that bridge in a minute so I can't remember if it needs it or not. It will also affect a small stretch of US-75 as well. Hopefully OkDOT will propose all direct connector ramps. I fucking hate cloverleafs with a passion for freeway to freeway interchanges.
Quote
Where:
Daniel Webster High School Auditorium
1919 West 40th Street
Tulsa, OK 74107 (Map)
When:
Thursday, November 2, 2017
Public Meeting format
Presentation at 6 p.m.
Purpose:
The purpose of the Public Meeting is to inform the public and obtain input on proposed improvements to the I-44 corridor between I-244 and the Arkansas River, including reconstruction of the I-44 & US-75 interchange in Tulsa, Oklahoma. This stretch of highway has a high accident rate, and will not adequately accommodate future traffic volumes. ODOT has reviewed several design options which were evaluated and compiled into a preferred alternative for the corridor.
- https://www.ok.gov/odot/Programs_and_Projects/Public_Meetings_and_Hearings/20171102_I-44.html
Project Limits
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mt6bkCdoY7-gfNwtLdrpLh0zkRUPvx5fyaIMfrkSOWWUdTqYePH6t6SJmPwN2rjwZov1X0mq4bCSPec=w1920-h962)
This interchange is a mess, and honestly this probably should have been done years ago.
I'm not too familiar with it only used it a couple of times but from the looks of it just from googla.... uh yeah, it's time
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2017, 04:59:55 AM
This interchange is a mess, and honestly this probably should have been done years ago.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 28, 2017, 05:15:28 AM
I’m not too familiar with it only used it a couple of times but from the looks of it just from googla.... uh yeah, it’s time
Unless they're rural, with a relatively low traffic count --
and include C/D lanes on
both intersecting routes, with at least 30mph loops -- freeway-to-freeway cloverleaf interchanges are inherently inappropriate. Unfortunately, to financially strapped DOT's they represent a relatively cheap but usable -- if not optimal -- option (e.g. the nascent I-22/269 interchange in MS).
The I-44/US-75 interchange would be an obvious candidate for Oklahoma's first 4 level, directional stack interchange. Chances are slim to none such an interchange would be built, even though there seems to be dozens of them in Texas and even a few in little Louisiana. The replacement interchange would likely be some partial cloverleaf with maybe one or two directional flyover ramps -like how the 10+ year long project to replace the I-44/I-235 interchange in OKC will end up being built.
Collector-Distributor lanes along US-75 would be nice, and mandatory if the replacement interchange is built as yet another cloverleaf. But will ODOT carve out the extra ROW along US-75 North of the interchange to make that happen?
Quote from: sparker on October 28, 2017, 07:49:15 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2017, 04:59:55 AM
This interchange is a mess, and honestly this probably should have been done years ago.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 28, 2017, 05:15:28 AM
I'm not too familiar with it only used it a couple of times but from the looks of it just from googla.... uh yeah, it's time
Unless they're rural, with a relatively low traffic count -- and include C/D lanes on both intersecting routes, with at least 30mph loops -- freeway-to-freeway cloverleaf interchanges are inherently inappropriate. Unfortunately, to financially strapped DOT's they represent a relatively cheap but usable -- if not optimal -- option (e.g. the nascent I-22/269 interchange in MS).
Cloverleafs are the default in Massachusetts. Are you saying all of those are inappropriate?
Quote from: 1 on October 29, 2017, 10:18:56 PM
Quote from: sparker on October 28, 2017, 07:49:15 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 28, 2017, 04:59:55 AM
This interchange is a mess, and honestly this probably should have been done years ago.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 28, 2017, 05:15:28 AM
I'm not too familiar with it only used it a couple of times but from the looks of it just from googla.... uh yeah, it's time
Unless they're rural, with a relatively low traffic count -- and include C/D lanes on both intersecting routes, with at least 30mph loops -- freeway-to-freeway cloverleaf interchanges are inherently inappropriate. Unfortunately, to financially strapped DOT's they represent a relatively cheap but usable -- if not optimal -- option (e.g. the nascent I-22/269 interchange in MS).
Cloverleafs are the default in Massachusetts. Are you saying all of those are inappropriate?
Over the years I've used several of the MA cloverleafs, particularly those on I-95/MA 128 (specifically, the US 3 and north I-93 interchanges) -- and
those are inappropriate in the sense that they don't handle current traffic loads particularly well, with the resultant congestion. The addition of C/D lanes would help; rebuilding with direct ramps addressing the higher-level directional movements would be better. I'm sure there are cloverleaf interchanges with lesser arterial routes within the state that
are quite adequate for their purposes; but those at major route intersections such as those cited above really need to be addressed with an eye toward reconstruction; they, IMHO,
are inappropriate. Obviously, the DOT is at least partially in agreement with me, as they're rebuilding the south I-95/93 (128) interchange, which was an uncompleted cloverleaf, as a directional interchange (even though it'll still be a bi-directional TOTSO!). At least it'll be a vast improvement over the previous cloverleaf-format arrangement!
I-44 WB backs up at US 75 all the time, sometimes during non-rush times. A ramp from 44 west to 75 south desperately needs to be built. Rebuilding it as a cloverleaf won't do much good.
You can leave comments at:
http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/meetings/a2017/171102/CommentForm.pdf
I asked why they ignored a full 4-level stack by retaining a single loop. Can't see the reason for that.
I was going to post the schematics. Fucking stupid it's only a 3 stack. Not one four stack in the entire state. I'm sure their reason will be costs.
Do the schematics at least include stubs to reserve the possibility of adding a fourth direct connector flyover ramp some point in the future? Most partial stacks in Texas at least have stubs to add future flyover ramps later. Even in Wichita Falls near the end of I-44 the interchange with Kell Freeway and US-287 has stubs for the interchange to be converted into a full stack interchange if the need developed for it.
As far as this topic goes I really won't give a dry fart about ghost ramps on a former service plaza. It doesn't have a damned thing to do about the ramp design of a freeway to freeway interchange and the question I posed about it. Might as well bring up sidewalks or even more bizarrely off-topics things psoriasis medication, favorite brand of pizza, etc.
ODOT is already goofing up to some degree by not designing this interchange as a 4-level stack interchange with 4 direct connect flyover ramps. They're obviously trying to save money by proposing only 3 direct connect flyovers and one cloverleaf loop. Eventually they'll need to replace that cheap loop with a 4th flyover. If they design the ramps with stubs for the missing flyover section it will be less expensive to add the 4th flyover later. If they don't add the stubs then it may be cost prohibitive to add the 4th flyover later, basically making the currently proposed design permanent.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 08, 2017, 12:03:30 PM
ODOT is already goofing up to some degree by not designing this interchange as a 4-level stack interchange with 4 direct connect flyover ramps. They're obviously trying to save money by proposing only 3 direct connect flyovers and one cloverleaf loop. Eventually they'll need to replace that cheap loop with a 4th flyover. If they design the ramps with stubs for the missing flyover section it will be less expensive to add the 4th flyover later. If they don't add the stubs then it may be cost prohibitive to add the 4th flyover later, basically making the currently proposed design permanent.
Not sure why it is a big issue to have a loop ramp in there instead of a flyover. That ramp goes from EB I-44 to NB US 75, a movement that is already duplicated by I-244 heading into Tulsa and merging in with US 75 just two miles away. Only local traffic exiting US 75 at 41st Street would be using the loop ramp, so building it as a flyover is really not worth the expense. I can totally understand why ODOT chose not to make it a full stack interchange.
That was my thought as well.
Quote from: compdude787 on November 08, 2017, 11:10:07 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 08, 2017, 12:03:30 PM
ODOT is already goofing up to some degree by not designing this interchange as a 4-level stack interchange with 4 direct connect flyover ramps. They're obviously trying to save money by proposing only 3 direct connect flyovers and one cloverleaf loop. Eventually they'll need to replace that cheap loop with a 4th flyover. If they design the ramps with stubs for the missing flyover section it will be less expensive to add the 4th flyover later. If they don't add the stubs then it may be cost prohibitive to add the 4th flyover later, basically making the currently proposed design permanent.
Not sure why it is a big issue to have a loop ramp in there instead of a flyover. That ramp goes from EB I-44 to NB US 75, a movement that is already duplicated by I-244 heading into Tulsa and merging in with US 75 just two miles away. Only local traffic exiting US 75 at 41st Street would be using the loop ramp, so building it as a flyover is really not worth the expense. I can totally understand why ODOT chose not to make it a full stack interchange.
There is a surprising amount of local traffic entering EB 44 at Union Avenue that use that ramp to head downtown. Either way, loop ramps, especially ones as tight as the one in the schematic, cause merging problems as it is impossible to get up to the speed of the mainline traffic.
Let's also not forget that with current plans this won't be built for another decade or more. OkDOT desperately needs funding. This shit should be starting next year!
Here are the renderings and schematics
Renderings of the interchange:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/CTCniyjBLgo-DqN70DQF1mU4ZLgwSV8eoSi9MSgUbEGlRsyf3p2l5IK-EKOjl288KOvXIf_wmXMFZbeKDuAt=w1911-h979-rw)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/iRNNeO0TmnA2ICCoUbGx3TdM_zwjfd8X1Zoivd74YC4FUqElwQ50KtkKv8P78gTESaJjnn61kMExPX95R5xF=w1911-h979-rw)
I-44 plans:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/tcH5epCDReScd9xn1BW_IbyG9eBQvCQ3s35misR5vbxn_8DFCJUzk3Ampgw0gBR-uMO4y62EXnyWT6bfI0Ke=w1911-h979-rw%5B/img%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bimg%5Dhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/WN0kx1yiwNTWO5EhsJS2iAopjg2YWadLTuXN6bmoehb8JYPSkOOu3Z4fOpM0nkUJs2_PBfmVrwRNKu08f1A2=w1911-h979-rw)
US-75 plans:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/OVup6CFwe9CsCVIrLkfValHtCxtmxhPMCeoEV6TTGtf_qzQ75qjz9qI4lXpCagDtJ75AieC06mrSigiEdgcg=w1911-h979-rw)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/ftqhIJe4KqQROjdUhzUIXWH4L55CoWXBbFUlaS9bwL2kUkSfeCH2XsfkEBn-k-5dB3o4UDhN6v4m6tk5XZjV=w1911-h979-rw)
https://www.ok.gov/odot/Programs_and_Projects/Public_Meetings_and_Hearings/20171102_I-44.html
That's a really odd looking interchange configuration. The biggest flyover ramp (WB I-44 to SB US-75) is like one part of a pinwheel interchange, circling around the outer edge of the interchange. The two flyovers going over the center of the interchange are like parts of a normal stack interchange. And then there's that odd loop. The way the ramps are configured it will be impossible to replace that itty bitty cloverleaf loop with a directional flyover, at least not without making such a ramp really long and really tall.
Yeah the geometric design is really weird. It just looks strange.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 10, 2017, 09:02:51 PM
That's a really odd looking interchange configuration. The biggest flyover ramp (WB I-44 to SB US-75) is like one part of a pinwheel interchange, circling around the outer edge of the interchange. The two flyovers going over the center of the interchange are like parts of a normal stack interchange. And then there's that odd loop. The way the ramps are configured it will be impossible to replace that itty bitty cloverleaf loop with a directional flyover, at least not without making such a ramp really long and really tall.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 10, 2017, 09:41:29 PM
Yeah the geometric design is really weird. It just looks strange.
It looks like they're trying to cut costs with the SB>EB and NB>WB direct connectors by keeping the curve radius as tight as possible. Obviously, their engineering staff assumes that the WB 44 to SB 75 movement traffic levels will warrant a higher-speed connection -- thus the larger-radius multilane flyover. And, again, their calculations regarding the proximity of the I-244 diagonal connection less than 2 miles away is figuring into their decision to retain the EB>NB loop; it's likely that the NB>WB movement was given a direct ramp because less locals would tend to use the Creek Turnpike connector a few miles south simply because it was tolled. My guess is that ODOT is simply trying to economize wherever possible -- but in doing so have more or less tied their hands regarding future modification without taking much of the adjoining properties to do so.
This project was awarded a grant of over 45 million dollars or so from Trump's Infrastructure funding. Says project could break ground in 2020! Here's to hoping that happens! :cheers:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/feds-announce-million-grant-to-replace-crumbling-i--bridges/article_6119fbb7-cfc4-5ee6-a785-1b80394a94f4.html
So they provide two lanes on the WB to SB ramp presumably because it's busiest...but...(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi68.tinypic.com%2F5p6vt.png&hash=bb853beca0b5abbf97cc2e502aa7f165e3419f63)
it merges to a single lane before reaching US-75. So who is going to use that 2nd lane on that expensive bridge?
Edit: this images came from the previously linked page: https://www.ok.gov/odot/Programs_and_Projects/Public_Meetings_and_Hearings/20171102_I-44.html
see the "US-75 display board"
Having viewed the detailed plans I don't see what the fuss and moaning is all about. The proposed layout is far superior to what's currently there. Retaining one loop removes all weaving. Hey, you could have two loops if they are on opposite sides of the junction and still have no weaving. Money is tight so be glad you're getting something which allows all movements to be freeflowing. Lots of planned interchanges here are getting roundabouts instead of direct ramps.
Quote from: johndoe on June 09, 2018, 03:42:00 PM
So they provide two lanes on the WB to SB ramp presumably because it's busiest...but...(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi68.tinypic.com%2F5p6vt.png&hash=bb853beca0b5abbf97cc2e502aa7f165e3419f63)
it merges to a single lane before reaching US-75. So who is going to use that 2nd lane on that expensive bridge?
Edit: this images came from the previously linked page: https://www.ok.gov/odot/Programs_and_Projects/Public_Meetings_and_Hearings/20171102_I-44.html
see the "US-75 display board"
My guess would be OkDOT just being cheap and having the second lane to have more capacity on the ramp for queuing to prevent traffic backing up onto I-44. Cheap solutio and doesn't really address backups rather than moves where it will happen. Good for I-44 through drivers I guess.
I do know they plan on 8 laning US-75 but that won't do much for the ramp situation as it's still a bottleneck. Maybe when that time comes around they could modify the ramp, but I doubt they do that. I still think this ramp needs to be a four stack interchange regardless whether a direct connect is warranted. Texas would done this long ago.
Induced demand is a flawed notion and completely false 99% of the time. I don't don't take into account things like that.
I don't get how build an additional flyover to make this a four stack would result in additional weaving.
They are creating another Dead Man's Curve situation. THat is the interchange of I44/OK74/OK66 in northwest OKC. Westbound 44 has one exit lane for both OK66 and NB OK74. Westbound 44 continues over Dead Man's Curve, narrows to one lane, and merges with SBOK74 just south of NW36th. When it was originally built in the 70's, westbound 44 also had EB OK66 to SB44 traffic that joined. All 3 lanes had to merge into one lane in less than 1/4 mile. You can imagine how bad the traffic stacked up. ODOT came through about 5 years ago and moved the EB66 to SB44 ramp so it goes onto the frontage road, through a signalized intersection with NW36th, then uses the existing 36th onramp to enter 44.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5101572,-97.5758986,773m/data=!3m1!1e3
I-44 in OKC is a terrible road. To stay on I-44 all the way through town you have to change freeways 4 times. ODOT made a bunch of questionable engineering decisions back in the 1960s and 1970s. I-244 and 444 are perfect examples. I-244 is 15.75 miles long and has 23 left exits or entrances. What were they smoking when they designed these roads?
Quote from: bugo on June 10, 2018, 02:14:06 PM
I-44 in OKC is a terrible road. To stay on I-44 all the way through town you have to change freeways 4 times.
Why doesn't I-44 just continue straight down Kilpatrick Turnpike then turn onto SH-74 and continue straight from there?
They could make several improvements on that by adding a three lane flyover where the current single lane one exists on over Portland and Memorial. They can redo the I-240/I-44 interchange to have I-240 entrance and exits on the left by building new flyovers.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 10, 2018, 09:03:47 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 10, 2018, 02:14:06 PM
I-44 in OKC is a terrible road. To stay on I-44 all the way through town you have to change freeways 4 times.
Why doesn't I-44 just continue straight down Kilpatrick Turnpike then turn onto SH-74 and continue straight from there?
Because the Kilpatrick Turnpike is a relatively new road. I-44 was extended from the I-35 interchange north of OKC to Wichita Falls in 1982, and the Kilpatrick wasn't built until a decade or so later. Unless the Kilpatrick is extended to meet I-44 south of OKC, then I don't expect I-44 will ever be rerouted onto it.
A good alternative to I-44 in OKC is to take I-35 to I-40. It goes through downtown but mileage is similar and the roads are better.
If regional planners had ever been on the ball the past 30 years Oklahoma City would now have an effective outer loop highway. They let the SW end of the Kilpatrick Turnpike get bottled up with uncontrolled development, which cut off a South-then-East extension over to Norman. Of course, OK-9 is starting to get swallowed up with development. I don't know why OTA ended the H.E. Bailey turnpike extension where they did, 6 miles short of reaching I-35. That last mile next to I-35 would be tricky to negotiate.
But OTA is going to build that Oklahoma County turnpike East of Midwest City from I-44 down to I-35. I don't know who would use it though. I would never have any need to do so on trips between Lawton and Tulsa (or farther NE). The South end provides no direct connection down to Moore & Norman and back over to I-35 and I-44. I see no point in building that road unless it's part of an actual outer loop plan. ODOT and OTA appear to have no such plans for Oklahoma City. They're just plopping down little road additions here or there. 1 mile extension of OK-74 North of the Kilpatrick? Woo-hoo! Curvy as f*** Kilpatrick extension to Airport Road? Oh wow!
:rolleyes:
Quote from: bugoI-44 in OKC is a terrible road. To stay on I-44 all the way through town you have to change freeways 4 times. ODOT made a bunch of questionable engineering decisions back in the 1960s and 1970s. I-244 and 444 are perfect examples. I-244 is 15.75 miles long and has 23 left exits or entrances. What were they smoking when they designed these roads?
In the case of I-44 in OKC, it was originally a bigger I-240 loop up past Penn Square Mall. IIRC the segment between Broadway Extension/I-235 and I-35 wasn't finished until the mid to late 1980's after the I-44 designation was applied. There was still an at-grade intersection or two along the route.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 11, 2018, 06:35:34 PM
In the case of I-44 in OKC, it was originally a bigger I-240 loop up past Penn Square Mall. IIRC the segment between Broadway Extension/I-235 and I-35 wasn't finished until the mid to late 1980's after the I-44 designation was applied. There was still an at-grade intersection or two along the route.
Wasn't the part north of I-40 called I-440 at one time as well?
Oklahoma City might be big enough to support a couple of regional light rail lines, such as one line from downtown OKC to the Will Rogers Airport and then perhaps another line North-South from Edmond down thru OKC and then to Norman. Outside of that buses would be more cost effective.
Quote from: bugoWasn't the part north of I-40 called I-440 at one time as well?
I don't think so. From my first visits to OKC when I was a little kid in the 1970's that road was I-240.
QuoteI really don't think that's the case, particularly in the Lawton, OKC (and it's burbs), Tulsa (and it's burbs), Bartlesville/Dewey, and McAlester/Krebs areas, and some decent intercity connections.
That depends on the type of mass transit being discussed. I think Lawton does okay with the LATS bus system. However, if I recall correctly, the bus lines do get a fair amount of grant subsidies. The system is not self sufficient. I wouldn't be surprised if Uber and Lyft are both taking a serious bite out of LATS' revenue and bus ridership.
There is no way Lawton could afford to install any rail-based system. That kind of thing is strictly for highly populated areas with a great tax base.
Quote from: bugo on June 11, 2018, 07:01:36 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 11, 2018, 06:35:34 PM
In the case of I-44 in OKC, it was originally a bigger I-240 loop up past Penn Square Mall. IIRC the segment between Broadway Extension/I-235 and I-35 wasn't finished until the mid to late 1980's after the I-44 designation was applied. There was still an at-grade intersection or two along the route.
Only on maps. I do not recall ever seeing it signed that way.
Wasn't the part north of I-40 called I-440 at one time as well?
I specifically remember seeing I-240 signs near Penn Square Mall back in 1980. I had a Great Aunt and Uncle who lived just South of Penn Square Mall close to the Penn Ave exit. My brother and I walked our dogs down to what's now the I-44/Penn exit. I remember seeing the post signs with I-240 shields mounted onto them.
It wouldn't work here because it is too sprawled out. There would have to be hundreds if not thousands of buses running 24/7/365 for them to be practical. The thought of light rail in Tulsa is laughable at best and ridiculous at worst. There's simply nowhere to put the tracks.
I think the model that would work best for OKC is to set up a line to tie together what high density nodes already exist–Campus Corner, downtown Norman, downtown OKC, Bricktown, Automobile Alley, the Paseo–with plenty of stops placed in between to try to kickstart new high-density development around them. My understanding is that is how the Washington Metro developed.
Yeah, a light rail system in OKC could sort of work if it had one big North-South line serving the most important stops between Edmond, downtown OKC and Norman and then an East-West line starting at Will Rogers airport, meeting the North-South line downtown somewhere and then ending out in Midwest City near Tinker AFB. But then that still leaves out the Northwest Highway corridor off NW of downtown (a pretty important area). I'm sure there's other areas that would be miffed for being left out of a commuter rail service plan. It's a catch-22 situation to announce such a plan to the public.
Ideally, OKC needs about 5 billion to start a decent light rail network. Hopefully they skip past commuter rail for Norman and OKC and go straight to LRT.
I think this project is now fully funded or at least the reconstruction and widening of I-44. This press release doesn't mention the interchange itself, but I'm guessing that is part of this project. For Tulsa's sake, I hope this isn't dragged into some 5+ year multi phase bullshit. Hopefully the money is there so it can all be built at once.
https://ok.gov/triton/modules/newsroom/newsroom_article.php?id=277&article_id=44777
Riverside Drive just opened up from 31st north so that should take some traffic away from the 44/75 interchange. The new Riverside Drive features two tunnels.
There's a single two lane tunnel under the airport.
What about the 23rd Street tunnels under the Oklahoma state capitol building in OKC?
Quote from: US 89 on September 14, 2018, 09:27:38 AM
What about the 23rd Street tunnels under the Oklahoma state capitol building in OKC?
23rd was trenched, then short portions were covered. I don't consider it to be a tunnel but technically?
Has there ever been a bored tunnel in Oklahoma? It was my understanding that a train track somewhere in the state has a bored tunnel. But that's all i recall.
The rail tunnel is in LeFlore County just across the Arkansas line. It goes through Backbone Mountain.
Nexus 5X
The first phase of this project has begun:
https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/odot-to-begin-i--bridge-replacements-in-west-tulsa/article_084a3a9c-eebd-588e-9b39-0bbba48b6147.html
The second phase of this old stretch of freeway is set to begin in early 2021. The first phase rebuilding the I-44 bridges over 33rd are close to being finished. The next phase will ultimately construct the US75 interchange as a fully direct connect stack and that project has no identified funding so far.
QuoteThe commission voted to award a contract for a $90 million project to widen I-44 and replace five bridges between Union Ave. and the west end of the Arkansas River bridge in Tulsa. This first phase in reconstruction of the I-44 and US-75 interchange is the single largest construction contract for a highway project in Tulsa and made possible thanks to a federal Infrastructure for Rebuilding America (INFRA) grant awarded to ODOT in 2018.
https://www.ok.gov/triton/modules/newsroom/newsroom_article.php?id=277&article_id=61861
When did the I-44/US-75 interchange change to a 4-level directional stack interchange? The last time I saw the plans it included 2 normal flyover ramps above the center of the interchange, a really long pinwheel-style interchange ramp going around the outside of the interchange and then a dinky little cloverleaf loop for the last movement.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 12, 2020, 01:27:38 PM
When did the I-44/US-75 interchange change to a 4-level directional stack interchange? The last time I saw the plans it included 2 normal flyover ramps above the center of the interchange, a really long pinwheel-style interchange ramp going around the outside of the interchange and then a dinky little cloverleaf loop for the last movement.
You wouldn't by chance have a copy of those original plans -- that sounds more cost-effective than duplication of those stacks from Baja Oklahoma (yeah, I've read several of Dan Jenkins' books). Now -- if US 75 were to be upgraded as a freeway all the way down to the I-40/INT interchange -- with the likely ensuing uptick in AADT -- a stack might be warranted. But for the present, something a little less "glamorous" would suffice.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 12, 2020, 01:27:38 PM
When did the I-44/US-75 interchange change to a 4-level directional stack interchange? The last time I saw the plans it included 2 normal flyover ramps above the center of the interchange, a really long pinwheel-style interchange ramp going around the outside of the interchange and then a dinky little cloverleaf loop for the last movement.
Yeah, you're right, there is one clover movement I forgot about that one.
Sparker, here is the project meeting page with the links to the renders included: https://www.ok.gov/odot/Programs_and_Projects/Public_Meetings_and_Hearings/20171102_I-44.html
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 12, 2020, 04:45:45 PM
Sparker, here is the project meeting page with the links to the renders included: https://www.ok.gov/odot/Programs_and_Projects/Public_Meetings_and_Hearings/20171102_I-44.html
Much thanks! Looks like 3/4 of a stack, but with one outflung ramp (WB>SB). Noticed that the flyovers had minimal berms, with more bents than usual; this was discussed in Mid-South about the US 69/96//TX 73 interchange revamp plans at Port Arthur, done so because of soggy ground and/or a high water table which calls for less weight bearing on the ground -- hence more bridge and less embankment. Although well inland compared to the TX example, my own impression from my travels through that area was that the Arkansas River floodplain features quite a bit of this type of environment -- soggy ground and difficulty with projects that need to bridge the river or simply impinge on the floodplain -- which would definitely have an effect on facility design.
A lovely surprise would be ODOT decides to go all out and build the clover as a direct connect. One can dream.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 13, 2020, 04:08:12 AM
A lovely surprise would be ODOT decides to go all out and build the clover as a direct connect. One can dream.
Doubtful -- that's a
really secondary movement; I-244, which terminates about a mile west on I-44 and with which the US 75 freeway merges about a mile and a half north handles the traffic that would utilize the movement. ODOT could have conceivably simply left the cloverleaf loop out of the interchange completely -- as well as the opposite-movement direct SB>WB ramp -- and likely wouldn't have drawn a lot of criticism for doing so since they're largely redundant.
Quote from: sparkerNow -- if US 75 were to be upgraded as a freeway all the way down to the I-40/INT interchange -- with the likely ensuing uptick in AADT -- a stack might be warranted. But for the present, something a little less "glamorous" would suffice.
I think US-75 through Tulsa has enough traffic on it currently to warrant a 4-level directional stack design. The problem is Oklahoma's lawmakers are such cheapskates they won't build anything like that,
even in Tulsa. A proper freeway upgrade of US-75 from Tulsa down to I-40 and the Indian Nation Turnpike might attract even more thru traffic.
It is interesting the long I-44 WB to US-75 SB flyover ramp and US-75 NB to I-44 EB at grade ramp are both 2 lanes wide while the others are just single lane ramps. At least that might factor in some future improvements and growth along the US-75 corridor South of Tulsa.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 17, 2020, 03:36:16 PM
Quote from: sparkerNow -- if US 75 were to be upgraded as a freeway all the way down to the I-40/INT interchange -- with the likely ensuing uptick in AADT -- a stack might be warranted. But for the present, something a little less "glamorous" would suffice.
I think US-75 through Tulsa has enough traffic on it currently to warrant a 4-level directional stack design. The problem is Oklahoma's lawmakers are such cheapskates they won't build anything like that, even in Tulsa. A proper freeway upgrade of US-75 from Tulsa down to I-40 and the Indian Nation Turnpike might attract even more thru traffic.
It is interesting the long I-44 WB to US-75 SB flyover ramp and US-75 NB to I-44 EB at grade ramp are both 2 lanes wide while the others are just single lane ramps. At least that might factor in some future improvements and growth along the US-75 corridor South of Tulsa.
I wonder if ODOT anticipates the INT/US 75 continuum (at least north of US 69) to have potential as an alternative to the US 69 slog through Muskogee, Choteau, Pryor etc., so they're expediting movement that would enhance that as a commercial throughput with the higher-capacity ramps N>E and W>S. If our own collective input into the situation -- as evidenced upthread -- can imagine that scenario, someone at ODOT might have an inkling along the same lines, especially now that the Muskogee bypass was thrown back in their faces. OTA might like this as well, since it would hold the potential for more miles/revenue on the Will Rogers (and possibly Creek) pike.
Quote from: sparkerI wonder if ODOT anticipates the INT/US 75 continuum (at least north of US 69) to have potential as an alternative to the US 69 slog through Muskogee, Choteau, Pryor etc., so they're expediting movement that would enhance that as a commercial throughput with the higher-capacity ramps N>E and W>S.
I doubt if the improved interchange will attract commercial truck traffic from the US-69 corridor. US-69 is the most direct route for trucks coming up from Texas and heading to the Northeast US. Tulsa is out of the way. Even though Muskogee and other towns along US-69 have the occasional stop lights and speed traps the level of traffic in Tulsa can be its own slog.
Tulsa is one of the few areas in Oklahoma that is actually adding population. There is a decent amount of growth on Tulsa's South side in places like Jenks and Glenpool. ODOT really needs to get on the ball with improving US-75 to the South of the Creek Turnpike. At grade intersections need to be converted into freeway exits at 131st St, 141st St, 171th St and 181st St. Frontage roads need to be added for access for other at grade intersections. ODOT needs to get to work on that stuff soon before any idiots allow developers to build new stuff right up on the freaking roadway. At the very least they need to start on the frontage roads to block out the ROW for future freeway improvement.
Upgrades along US-75 will get easier South of Glenpool. But Okmulgee will need a new terrain bypass to get any new freeway built through there. I'm not even sure the 2 lane Oklahoma Loop 56 on the East side of Okmulgee has enough ROW width for any sort of freeway upgrade. The footprint looks only big enough for a regular 4 lane divided road with at-grade intersections.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 18, 2020, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: sparkerI wonder if ODOT anticipates the INT/US 75 continuum (at least north of US 69) to have potential as an alternative to the US 69 slog through Muskogee, Choteau, Pryor etc., so they're expediting movement that would enhance that as a commercial throughput with the higher-capacity ramps N>E and W>S.
I doubt if the improved interchange will attract commercial truck traffic from the US-69 corridor. US-69 is the most direct route for trucks coming up from Texas and heading to the Northeast US. Tulsa is out of the way. Even though Muskogee and other towns along US-69 have the occasional stop lights and speed traps the level of traffic in Tulsa can be its own slog.
Tulsa is one of the few areas in Oklahoma that is actually adding population. There is a decent amount of growth on Tulsa's South side in places like Jenks and Glenpool. ODOT really needs to get on the ball with improving US-75 to the South of the Creek Turnpike. At grade intersections need to be converted into freeway exits at 131st St, 141st St, 171th St and 181st St. Frontage roads need to be added for access for other at grade intersections. ODOT needs to get to work on that stuff soon before any idiots allow developers to build new stuff right up on the freaking roadway. At the very least they need to start on the frontage roads to block out the ROW for future freeway improvement.
Upgrades along US-75 will get easier South of Glenpool. But Okmulgee will need a new terrain bypass to get any new freeway built through there. I'm not even sure the 2 lane Oklahoma Loop 56 on the East side of Okmulgee has enough ROW width for any sort of freeway upgrade. The footprint looks only big enough for a regular 4 lane divided road with at-grade intersections.
If considered -- and signed as -- a segmented route, the INT/75/44 continuum
is longer, considering the 69/INT and Big Cabin I-44 interchange as the end points -- 140 miles vs. 126 -- which means the direct route affords a 10% mileage saving. Granted, it would not be a simple task to entice drivers away from US 69 onto the longer route; it would likely take (a) a freeway upgrade of the US 75 portion of the corridor and, likely (b) a single number applied to the route -- obviously the long bandied-about I-45 extension, with TX's cooperation. Were that to be done (and adequately publicized), IMO about 35-40% of the throughput US 69 traffic would shift to the all-free-flow route. Commercial drivers would be somewhat more likely to remain using US 69, particularly those who use the corridor on a regular basis and are accustomed to the amenities along that route, while a singly-numbered Interstate route on the Texas-Tulsa would attract noncommercial drivers accustomed to (blindly) following Interstates. And there's always the distinct possibility that the greater variety of amenities in the Tulsa area (
vis-a-vis those of Muskogee and elsewhere along the northern portion of the US 69 corridor) would prompt a route shift. It would be a mixed bag, but if the steps described above were taken, it's likely a significant portion of drivers would select the slightly longer routing.
Major work starts on the 25th. It is the first of five work packages and OkDOT claims this phase will be the most disruptive:
Quote
Major traffic impacts for I-44/US-75 interchange start January 25 in Tulsa
The first round of improvements to the I-44/US-75 interchange will begin Monday, Jan. 25 in Tulsa. This massive $90 million project will greatly impact traffic in the west side of the city over the next two years, and drivers are urged to plan ahead for significant delays to commutes and travel in this area.
Improvements in this project include:
Widening and reconstructing all pavements on I-44 from four lanes to six between the west side of the Arkansas River bridge and Union Avenue.
Replacing five bridges; one at Union Ave. over I-44, two US-75 bridges over I-44 and two US-75 bridges over Mooser Creek (located just south of I-44 junction).
Replacing and slightly reconfiguring all four cloverleaf ramps at the interchange to match geometry of the new elevation of the US-75 bridges over I-44.
Construction of some additional piers; these will be part of future work packages for the interchange.
While I-44 and US-75 will remain open during this project, there will be times that lanes will be narrowed and the corridors may only have one lane open to traffic. There will also be ramp closures at the cloverleaf, along with full closures of Union Ave. over I-44 and on Skelly Dr. at times. Traffic will be slow in all areas of the work zone and drivers are urged to set aside distractions and give their full attention to the road. Alternate routes such as I-244 should be considered, especially during peak travel times.
This is the first of five work packages to improve the I-44/US-75 interchange and the I-44 West End corridor between the Arkansas River and the western I-44/I-244 split in Tulsa. It will have the biggest impact to both I-44 and US-75 traffic out of all the work packages. Those plans for additional work in the corridor are still being developed at this time, and some are not yet funded or scheduled.
- https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/traffic-advisories/2021/major-traffic-impacts-to-i-44-us-75-interchange-start-jan--25-in.html (https://oklahoma.gov/odot/citizen/traffic-advisories/2021/major-traffic-impacts-to-i-44-us-75-interchange-start-jan--25-in.html)
Haven't been up there recently and wondered how the replacement of the bridges over 33rd West Ave is going. I always hated that interchange.
Quote from: rte66man on January 23, 2021, 09:23:22 AM
Haven't been up there recently and wondered how the replacement of the bridges over 33rd West Ave is going. I always hated that interchange.
It looked complete just after Christmas when I was in the area.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50864108588_391889b6fe_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kuFRps)DSC01785 (https://flic.kr/p/2kuFRps) by Eric Stuve (https://www.flickr.com/photos/okroads/), on Flickr
Tulsa gets Type A arrows? I'm jealous.
For real. That's a sign, in Oklahoma, that I can find nothing wrong with. How did that happen?
I've seen enough garbage signs in Tulsa not to believe that. More likely, the recent signing contractor of choice up there has its shit together. (Mostly. I paged through some of Eric's photostream and there is one interchange in East Tulsa that uses lowercase subscripted ordinals, which would be fine, except it breaks consistency with everything around it. Sigh...)
A mismatched ordinal is not a big deal, maybe enough to knock you down from A+ to A.
Oklahoma as a whole is a D student, though.
I can no longer find a map of the updated interchange anywhere. If anyone has a good source, it would be appreciated. Thanks.
Quote from: BigOkie on April 16, 2021, 03:45:29 PM
I can no longer find a map of the updated interchange anywhere. If anyone has a good source, it would be appreciated. Thanks.
Try this (https://oklahoma.gov/odot/progress-and-performance/federal-grant-awards/infra-grants/2021-tulsa-county-i-44-and-us-75.html).
New public meeting presentation is now live:
https://i44us75.transportationplanroom.com/
Substantial progress has been made with the I-44/US-75 interchange project in Tulsa. I drove through there this past weekend. All the bridge piers for the flyover ramps are erected. There is still a great deal of work left to do with the roadways though. At least this project seems to be moving faster than the I-44/I-235 interchange in Oklahoma City.
The Gilcrease Turnpike connection into the I-44/I-244 interchange also looks like it's near completion. New monotube overhead signs have been installed along I-44. Green patches are covering up the turnpike icons. Some of this stuff is visible in Google Street View imagery (dated 6/2022).
The segment of I-44 between the I-44/I-244 interchange and I-44/US-75 interchange is the last bit in Tulsa that has only 2 lanes in each direction. I can't tell if the new overhead sign structures left any space for additional lanes.
GSV show a view of under the new viaducts who carry US-75 over I-44. https://goo.gl/maps/3w7VD3kt1L6A55Q28
Slightly off-topic did OK DOT once studied the possibility to put bridges to connect the local lanes of Skelly Drive and 51th Street over the Arkansas River to have continuous service roads between US-75 and Riverside Drive?
I don't know, but one or two bridges to connect Skelly Drive and 51st Street as I-44 service roads on both sides of the Arkansas River would be a good idea. It would be especially good if a pedestrian/bicycle path was included in the design. The nearest Arkansas River bridges to I-44 are 2 miles downstream and 3 miles upstream.
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on August 09, 2022, 04:37:52 PM
Slightly off-topic did OK DOT once studied the possibility to put bridges to connect the local lanes of Skelly Drive and 51th Street over the Arkansas River to have continuous service roads between US-75 and Riverside Drive?
Doubtful–in most other places in Oklahoma, service roads just end any time a lengthy bridge would be required. I think only Texas has that level of obsession with service roads.
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on August 09, 2022, 04:37:52 PM
GSV show a view of under the new viaducts who carry US-75 over I-44. https://goo.gl/maps/3w7VD3kt1L6A55Q28
Slightly off-topic did OK DOT once studied the possibility to put bridges to connect the local lanes of Skelly Drive and 51th Street over the Arkansas River to have continuous service roads between US-75 and Riverside Drive?
I don't know if they studied that, but the state will be widening the Arkansas bridge from six to eight lanes as part of the interchange project. It's part of the work that starts next summer.
Phase I is now largely complete, the US-75 bridges are done and all lanes are open on I-44.
Phases II and III are scheduled for next fall.
Quote from: swake on November 08, 2022, 02:06:55 PM
Phase I is not largely complete, the US-75 bridges are done and all lanes are open on I-44.
Phases II and III are scheduled for next fall.
Oh how I hate this phased approach on interchanges. I wish they could be properly funded and just do the whole damned thing at once.
This interchange's temporary configuration has (or at least had) some of the jankiest merges that I've ever seen on a freeway (stop signs on the loop ramps, unclear cone placement, etc.). At least it looks like the finished product will be an excellent cloverstack to drive through. Probably tangentially related, but the new black monotube gantries on I-44 in that area look really nice by Oklahoma's standards.
Quote from: CoreySamson on November 08, 2022, 10:00:45 PM
This interchange's temporary configuration has (or at least had) some of the jankiest merges that I've ever seen on a freeway (stop signs on the loop ramps, unclear cone placement, etc.).
That's par for the course for Oklahoma work zones. I-235/I-44 and the I-35 six-laning in Norman were both notorious for ramps that suddenly ended at a merge-or-die concrete wall. I myself got into two accidents at the latter.
The entire project should be under construction by fall of next year and here's an article on it: https://www.krmg.com/news/local/work-add-flyover-ramps-i-44us-75-begin-next-year-ahead-initial-schedule/FBJ2D54AR5HYPNXO6JMO42E3RY/?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3Vme9rGmrTeM9-dmrYF75eWYrQseOajiFQlG7Gssc-M_VF0i0RGnA879Q
How,about Traffic Henge?
https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/as-construction-stalls-tulsans-refer-to-i-44-75-project-as-traffic-henge
With phase one of the I-44 and Highway 75 construction project complete and next phases not underway, there are now several ramp beams–but no roads on top of the beams.
Leave it up to an artist like Tulsan Steve Liggett to find an alternate and humorous view of its current look.
"We thought, "this is just like Stonehenge but it's in Tulsa... so Traffic Henge?" he said, referring to when he and his partner drove by and snapped a photo.
That photo and whimsical post about "Traffic Henge" garnered hundreds of shares. One commenter vowed to call it Traffic Henge, "until it's complete... which means forever!"
In fact, ODOT tells 2 News the project is ahead of schedule. The five-phase project can't happen at once due to funding. However, $95 million in grant money will allow them to start three of the phases next year.