The world has gotten to the point that the only curse word that seems to be verboten is the C-word. The rest of them "OH well", Whether it is streaming TV, to a lesser extent broadcast TV, and even this forum, the envelope pushes and pushes. F-bombs are dropped virtually indiscriminately.
I cannot sit in my living room and watch a TV drama for fear my 8-year-old will hear something I don't want to hear myself and I certainly don't want him to hear. Yellowstone and anything Taylor Sheridan produces averages 14 F-bombs an hour. Other producers are less, but they are still there.
Just a personal beef. Guys I really wish you would try to have a mite of decorum on here. Even James Hetfield of the band Metallica says we overuse the F-word and it is losing its (shock) value.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 08:30:57 AM
The world has gotten to the point that the only curse word that seems to be verboten is the C-word.
I will point out that that particular word is the only non-slur curse word that is filtered by the forum.
Quote from: 1 on January 10, 2023, 08:39:19 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 08:30:57 AM
The world has gotten to the point that the only curse word that seems to be verboten is the C-word.
I will point out that that particular word is the only non-slur curse word that is filtered by the forum.
I agree. Clearview is quite the vulgar word indeed.
Jokes aside, society has become too vulgar with its word choices. I think the most gratuitous example is a subreddit that I sometimes see on my home page, "r/interestingasf***". And when I see it, I'm thinking: is that really necessary? Do you really need to browse a forum with a name like that?
Then the more you read it, hear it, see it, the more you tend to repeat it yourself. I'm guilty of this too.
An example: The other day, a mother was with her two children at church. They were going to put their books back on the shelf after the Mass, but it was full and the mother said to them, "Oh, we're screwed". Now saying screwed isn't the worst thing, but I wouldn't want to be teaching my 8 year-olds that, given what the euphemism can mean. This was at a church as well, keep that in mind.
I think one of my least favorite instances is when vulgarity is used in songs. They get stuck in your head, just kinda floating around there until you think of something else. It's also just lazy songwriting.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 08:30:57 AM
The world has gotten to the point that the only curse word that seems to be verboten is the C-word. The rest of them "OH well", Whether it is streaming TV, to a lesser extent broadcast TV, and even this forum, the envelope pushes and pushes. F-bombs are dropped virtually indiscriminately.
I cannot sit in my living room and watch a TV drama for fear my 8-year-old will hear something I don't want to hear myself and I certainly don't want him to hear. Yellowstone and anything Taylor Sheridan produces averages 14 F-bombs an hour. Other producers are less, but they are still there.
Just a personal beef. Guys I really wish you would try to have a mite of decorum on here. Even James Hetfield of the band Metallica says we overuse the F-word and it is losing its (shock) value.
Don't have to see it on regular TV. Bill Maher called Sarah Palin the C word in his daily routine that gets quoted by talk radio.
That is why I listen to Christian radio. No worries there.
I'm sure NE 2 will weigh in soon here to be his usual cocky self.
Eh, words are words. They are constructs that infer a meaning. There is nothing inherently "good" or "bad" about them. It's just air moving in a certain way through your airway. If I drop an F-bomb, I'm doing it intentionally for reinforcement. I don't often drop F-bombs on this forum, since there are often words that would suffice.
I drop way more F-bombs at work and day-to-day conversation than I do here. My most common slur on the forum is probably "shit." All the same, most the time I use it is to describe poor road conditions.
If I do have to drop the F Bomb here, I will use *** between letters or once I remember using (censored).
I do know some that won't hold back and use including one user calling the Hypotenuse Diesel mechanic the Richard word for male genitalia during the day when ole Saab was trolling.
Nobody gives a fuck LOL. Kids aren't traumatized by hearing the F word, nor do they become violent from playing GTA, nor do they become sex offenders from seeing "inappropriate" shows on TV. Snowflake censorship needs to end already.
On TikTok, I clutch my pearls when businesses use vulgarity in their official advertising or videos. It is concerning to me how prevalent swearing has become.
But, I also accept that yelling against the trend is quixotic.
"Gratuitous" is subjective and in the eyes of the beholder.
It's very, very, very rare that I've ever heard the F-word on over-the-air TV.
I heard it used in some congressional hearings about something not too long ago. Once around 1986, a baseball player yelled it out during a game. I saw a '60 Minutes' segment about the Berlin Wall in which I saw the F-word spraypainted on the wall. I think the F-word slipped into an episode of 'Malcolm In The Middle' once. Other than that, it's very rare.
It's rare even on cable.
I remember Dennis Rodman dropping an f-bomb during the victory rally after the Bulls won the championship in 1993. It was being carried live on WGN.
Fun fact: You can say whatever you want on basic cable, but you might not be able to find companies willing to advertise if you do. AMC used to allot Mad Men one uncensored f-bomb per season.
I used to have a rather foul mouth, but with age comes wisdom and maturity.
I'm embarrassed at my past self for saying things in public that I cringe when I hear now in places like a store checkout counter. You never know who the person next to you is and if they might be offended by your choice of language.
It takes intelligence and skill to tell someone to do certain things without using profanity.
Also, see you next Tuesday. :-D
Come to think of it, there was that American Music Awards in 1992 or 1993 when Slash couldn't stop swearing.
I'd rather deal with curse words on TV then see ads with that gross Lume lady telling us how she puts her product in her butt crack and "under boob".
As I've aged, I feel like vulgarity is cover for the laziness in seeking to say something actually witty. It's the whole Howard Stern/FCC thing, he was much funnier when his mouth had a governor on it. Remove that limitation and you start realizing what made him amusing.
Some biker guy cussed on the local TV news once back in 1977...
Quote from: Rothman on January 10, 2023, 10:56:22 AM
Come to think of it, there was that American Music Awards in 1992 or 1993 when Slash couldn't stop swearing.
Hence now, they leave a delay. And it was late eighties as it was when I still lived in NJ when it happened.
Then what about ole Howie. When he was on WNBC Radio he spoke of explicit topics constantly, as it was he who felt the censorship should progress with the times and would do it against the will of his program director.
I remember one time when I was about 11, some kid muttered the F-word at a store. I think it was our local Kmart. Some old woman heard him and got really mad!
Once about 5 years ago, I was in Kroger, and some kid who was about 10 was there with his family. He loudly ranted for a half-hour that he got a lousy toy from one of those coin-operated vending machines that dispenses a random toy. He used every word in the book!
Quote from: bandit957 on January 10, 2023, 11:16:44 AM
I remember one time when I was about 11, some kid muttered the F-word at a store. I think it was our local Kmart. Some old woman heard him and got really mad!
Once about 5 years ago, I was in Kroger, and some kid who was about 10 was there with his family. He loudly ranted for a half-hour that he got a lousy toy from one of those coin-operated vending machines that dispenses a random toy. He used every word in the book!
Not to violate what MMM was last reprimanded for, but the kid was no doubt possible on the spectrum as it sounds like a child in the news who was asked to leave a flight cause she was ranting quite loudly disturbing the other passengers over something silly. That was reported in the news of the teen being Autistic who was problematic.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 10, 2023, 11:20:49 AMNot to violate what MMM was last reprimanded for, but the kid was no doubt possible on the spectrum as it sounds like a child in the news who was asked to leave a flight cause she was ranting quite loudly disturbing the other passengers over something silly. That was reported in the news of the teen being Autistic who was problematic.
I'm not sure. I remember kids throwing tantrums like this in elementary school a lot, and that was over 40 years ago. The difference is that they didn't cuss nearly as much.
Cussing was more common when kids threw tantrums in high school.
Quote from: 1 on January 10, 2023, 08:39:19 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 08:30:57 AM
The world has gotten to the point that the only curse word that seems to be verboten is the C-word.
I will point out that that particular word is the only non-slur curse word that is filtered by the forum.
It is generally regarded as a slur against women.
On the other words....
Just because someone else doesn't filter it when you say it doesn't mean you should take license to say it.
Would you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
But I’ve heard women use it too. However that like blacks using the N word among each other or Polish people using the Pollock word among each other. Heck I’ve told Polish jokes in my youth and my dad would sometimes say the Pollock word when citing other Polish guys he knew.
Plus I would laugh at Archie Bunker call the Meathead a Pollock, but that was different as sometimes The Meathead was not using his brain either on occasion and worthy of a typical incoherent slur by the Bigot. However I know we all not stupid as a ethnic group and don’t believe it, but sometimes Norman Lear did make us feel that way using Rob Reiner as his personal mouthpiece.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AM
Just because someone else doesn't filter it when you say it doesn't mean you should take license to say it.
Would you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
I'll turn it around. Just out of curiosity, when you do think it
is appropriate to use profanity? (For the record, I've cursed in front of the owner of companies that I've worked for. Pick and choose a time, sure, but it was fitting given the context.)
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AMWould you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
The answer to all of these questions is "it depends." I've worked at a few law firms where the lawyers cursed like drunken sailors.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 11:52:22 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AMWould you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
The answer to all of these questions is "it depends." I've worked at a few law firms where the lawyers cursed like drunken sailors.
Having been a drunken sailor a time or several, I'll say that's a perfect time to swear. No kids around. Overly macho environment. It used to be all male at sea, but times have changed since I served. That said, it was very hard to stop swearing regularly when I left the Navy. It just becomes part of your regular speech. I still struggle with it and it's been almost 40 years now.
I will say there have been movies where I preferred that they were edited for TV because I thought the profanity was out of place and I had no idea why the director thought it made the scene better. I'm not advocating for censorship of movies as
Blazing Saddles should never be edited. I just think directors should use it when it fits the context and not because they're trying for some rating or some BS "authenticity" where it's not authentic.
I heard a guy swear out loud in a restaurant. It was after 10pm and a family with kids came in, in which the guy was swearing against the chagrin of the parents. The manager asked the guy politely to tone it down and he went off saying kids should be in bed after 9 pm and it was the parents fault for taking them out past their bedtime.
Then three drunk guys were at another bar swearing out loud where they got me offended. Usually swearing don't bother me but these guys were doing it too much and too loudly. Not to mention either swearing at Beaumont, TX or a person they new with the Beaumont surname several times got my attention. The manager ended up throwing the guys out, but refused to leave resulting in the cops being called. However they left before the cops came, but banned from the establishment. It's not what you say, but how say it is what got me offended.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 10, 2023, 12:24:51 PM
I heard a guy swear out loud in a restaurant. It was after 10pm and a family with kids came in, in which the guy was swearing against the chagrin of the parents. The manager asked the guy politely to tone it down and he went off saying kids should be in bed after 9 pm and it was the parents fault for taking them out past their bedtime.
To some degree, I agree with the profane guy. But at the same time, it's not hard to be polite when asked. I will say that there is a time and place for things and if you bring in kids to a bar and you hear profanity, well, your kids aren't in the right environment. (I'm aware this was a restaurant, not a bar.)
Quote from: roadman65 on January 10, 2023, 12:24:51 PMThen three drunk guys were at another bar swearing out loud where they got me offended. Usually swearing don't bother me but these guys were doing it too much and too loudly. Not to mention either swearing at Beaumont, TX or a person they new with the Beaumont surname several times got my attention. The manager ended up throwing the guys out, but refused to leave resulting in the cops being called. However they left before the cops came, but banned from the establishment. It's not what you say, but how say it is what got me offended.
These things annoy me; they don't offend me.
The strange thing: I curse pretty heavily, yet I agree with the basic premise especially as it relates to minced oaths or euphemisms designed as attention-grabbers in advertising. One ad that drove me nuts was this:
Female VO: Let's talk about the F-word!
*crowd gasps with clips of panicking cute animals* (I think?)
VO: No, not *that* F-word!
There was also some grocery chain out of my region that talked about how "F'n convenient" they were, or that Walmart ad recently with the dad cussing at gas prices and his daughter promptly shoving a swear jar in his face. It's not amusing to me, it's lazy script writing.
Once I was at a mid-tier restaurant with fellow paralegals in DC. One of us was loud and swearing. I suspect to this day that the level of service we got -- cordial, but rushed -- was to get him out of there.
People can defend swearing all they want, but it can have negative consequences due to the reactions of others.
...
Of course, for those of us with clean mouths, the phenomenon of people cleaning up their language to match or even apologizing when a swear comes out -- without me saying one way or other if I care -- has always fascinated me.
Yes, I think there is way too much cursing in general now. I am not saying I am perfect and don't swear. I don't like putting swear words in writing so that's why I keep this forum clean. I do try sometimes to tone it down, and frankly I wish I would stop entirely.
This is what I see. people in general swear when out and about. I used to not hear it at all 30 or so years ago except certain environments. Maybe hanging with your buddies and no parents or children were around, but even then, it was used sparingly. I think now days people swear so much they can't say one sentence without using at least three different swear words.
About 30 to 40 years ago, swearing was only in R rated movies. If you look back on all the great 80s films, they were all rated PG so they had mild swearing. There wasn't a lot of R rated movies back then because it was harder to market them because they wanted the young demographic and they actually cared back then not to market an R movie to kids. There was no swearing, not even a dang or a heck on most over the air sitcoms. Cable was a new thing, but they ran their business the same as the over the air channels despite not being governed by the FCC. Most people in situations had the couth to keep the language clean when out and about and there was a chance for people to be overheard.
Now, we have the internet, streaming, TikTok and the others with zero regulations so cursing is done at will. We have directors and producers who think anything vulgar makes people come see the show, so a lot of times in streaming shows the profanity is very gratuitous. I can't tell you how many times my wife has her head in the phone watching these stupid TikTok videos and these regular people are trying to do some dumb challenge, it goes sideways and then F bombs go everywhere, and of course everyone laughs about the language. Other TikToks have some song in the background with vulgar language. I think people in general have taken that mentality of cursing being everywhere to the grocery store, the park, the bus, Target and the mall which are all places people used to sensor themselves at out of respect of the person next to them and they may get offended by harsh language. It's funny to me, in a time when everyone is supposedly supposed to be nicer and not offend everyone, no one has a problem dropping F-bombs around everywhere when someone might offend. The streaming side of it has affected the over the air networks too. When you wouldn't hear any swearing before, now some harsher (but not F word level) swearing can be heard on NBC, CBS and ABC (of course it's on FOX).
At a certain point the gratuitous swearing does offend me because I get mad that people have no decency anymore. I am not saying I hate those words, but after a day of listening to people curse constantly at work, then the road, then the store and then in my neighborhood, the last thing I want to do is put on a Netflix show or a movie that uses cursing over the top to the point where there would be no dialog if you cut out the cursing. I watch movies to escape reality, not bring reality back in my life.
Yes, I have a problem with commercials that try to use implied profanity as their gimmick. Booking.com used to have "it's a great booking deal" as one of their slogans, full well knowing they were going for the angle you might mishear that as the f-word. Yes, the aforementioned Walmart commercial with the dad cursing over gas prices bothers me, because it implies swearing with your kid in the car is the norm. There is a country music song about a kid spilling a drink and then dropping profanity where the singer goes on to say he heard it from his dad, and there is no reprimand for him using the bad language, only "son want to be like dad, isn't that awesome!" Texting has worsened the effect. You have acronyms like WTF and AF and people throw that wound everywhere, and no one seems to bat an eye about what the F stands for. I can't tell you how many inappropriate bumper stickers I see in a day, something saying or implying the F word or something graphic about sex.
What is odd to me is swearing still seems to have some of the same effect in some cases that it used to when it was used sparingly. I was told by a friend to watch a certain local band on a certain night because the lead drop F-bombs, and said it in a way that it makes the experience great. I also heard someone give a review of a Michael Buble show and one of the highlights was "there were F-bombs"! My hatred for Adam Sandler comes from his first album when it was F-bomb after F-bomb. All my friends thought it was hilarious when I realized right away, he was going for the easy laugh by making the material vulgar. It amazes me when people think that gratuitous cursing actually elevates the experience because for me, it detracts from it, and eventually gets to the point that I don't want to watch/be at the concert anymore.
I am bothered by how profane as a society we have become. I think it goes hand and hand with how inconsiderate people have gotten.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 11:52:22 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AMWould you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
The answer to all of these questions is "it depends." I've worked at a few law firms where the lawyers cursed like drunken sailors.
Would you say it in Court?
Quote from: skluth on January 10, 2023, 12:11:26 PMI will say there have been movies where I preferred that they were edited for TV because I thought the profanity was out of place and I had no idea why the director thought it made the scene better. I'm not advocating for censorship of movies as Blazing Saddles should never be edited. I just think directors should use it when it fits the context and not because they're trying for some rating or some BS "authenticity" where it's not authentic.
I don't know if I've ever seen a film or TV show (or play, for that matter) where the swearing was gratuitous or out of character. And I do think it's possible to use profanity effectively. Exhibit A:
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 01:21:12 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 11:52:22 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AMWould you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
The answer to all of these questions is "it depends." I've worked at a few law firms where the lawyers cursed like drunken sailors.
Would you say it in Court?
I was just a paralegal, so I didn't say anything in court. But if you think a lawyer has never sworn in front of a judge while they're in chambers, and/or a judge has never sworn in front of a lawyer while they're in chambers, then I have some oceanfront property in Kansas that I'd like to sell you at a fair price.
Quote from: Rothman on January 10, 2023, 01:11:42 PM
Once I was at a mid-tier restaurant with fellow paralegals in DC. One of us was loud and swearing. I suspect to this day that the level of service we got -- cordial, but rushed -- was to get him out of there.
People can defend swearing all they want, but it can have negative consequences due to the reactions of others.
...
Of course, for those of us with clean mouths, the phenomenon of people cleaning up their language to match or even apologizing when a swear comes out -- without me saying one way or other if I care -- has always fascinated me.
I once was in a takeout lobby. The cashier issued a curse. She quickly apologized. One of the people in the lobby was a pastor. He picked up the moment to make it even more poignent. "He called out...Ohhhhhh... you cussed in front of the preacher......" I think it was tongue in cheek, but it sure got some nervous giggles from the crowd.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 01:26:22 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 01:21:12 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 11:52:22 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AMWould you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
The answer to all of these questions is "it depends." I've worked at a few law firms where the lawyers cursed like drunken sailors.
Would you say it in Court?
I was just a paralegal, so I didn't say anything in court. But if you think a lawyer has never sworn in front of a judge while they're in chambers, and/or a judge has never sworn in front of a lawyer while they're in chambers, then I have some oceanfront property in Kansas that I'd like to sell you at a fair price.
People swear, often under oath, all the time in court. But do they use profanity in court?
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 01:26:22 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 01:21:12 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 11:52:22 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AMWould you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
The answer to all of these questions is "it depends." I've worked at a few law firms where the lawyers cursed like drunken sailors.
Would you say it in Court?
I was just a paralegal, so I didn't say anything in court. But if you think a lawyer has never sworn in front of a judge while they're in chambers, and/or a judge has never sworn in front of a lawyer while they're in chambers, then I have some oceanfront property in Kansas that I'd like to sell you at a fair price.
I said IN COURT. In the COURTROOM...
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 01:30:01 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 01:26:22 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 01:21:12 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 11:52:22 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AMWould you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
The answer to all of these questions is "it depends." I've worked at a few law firms where the lawyers cursed like drunken sailors.
Would you say it in Court?
I was just a paralegal, so I didn't say anything in court. But if you think a lawyer has never sworn in front of a judge while they're in chambers, and/or a judge has never sworn in front of a lawyer while they're in chambers, then I have some oceanfront property in Kansas that I'd like to sell you at a fair price.
I said IN COURT. In the COURTROOM...
I very well might. If I was a witness in a case and was quoting the defendant? Sure. I wouldn't edit my recollection.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 10, 2023, 11:46:16 AM
But I've heard women use it too. However that like blacks using the N word among each other or Polish people using the Pollock word among each other. Heck I've told Polish jokes in my youth and my dad would sometimes say the Pollock word when citing other Polish guys he knew.
Very early on my freshman year in college, I met someone down the hall from New York who had never met anyone from West Virginia. He really wanted to make fun of West Virginians, but refused to do so unless I made fun of his Italian heritage first. I knew some good ethnic jokes, but did not want to start out my college days by making sport of anybody for any reason. After several weeks of unrelenting pursuit, I finally caved in and gave him my best one. I'm not good at one-liners that are not transportation-related, but this one must have hit the mark, as we became great friends. He actually didn't have any West Virginia jokes at all, and I had to give him a few good ones.
The next year, the same thing happened. Except this time, the fellow was an African-American from an upscale suburban neighborhood in Tidewater. He was having a hard time fitting in with other Black folks on campus, and he really wanted the Appalachian folks on the hall to hit him with the worst ethnic slurs possible. He was also unrelenting for the whole year, but I didn't cave in this time (don't even want to catch myself thinking those kind of thoughts). But he talked a fellow from the Tri-Cities into this, and they became best friends. At one point, this fellow dressed up his Tennessee friend (who was a really big fellow) as a Klansman, then asked him to close his door and come back out when he knocked. The two of them got into a completely fake argument and the Black fellow simply picked up ole' Tennessee and threw him over his shoulder and carried him down the hallway. It was funny, but I still didn't cave in. We eventually became really good friends, but it never was as good as he wanted the friendship.
Looking back on all of this, I probably should have used the same principle to both relationships.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 01:26:22 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 01:21:12 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 11:52:22 AM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AMWould you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
The answer to all of these questions is "it depends." I've worked at a few law firms where the lawyers cursed like drunken sailors.
Would you say it in Court?
I was just a paralegal, so I didn't say anything in court. But if you think a lawyer has never sworn in front of a judge while they're in chambers, and/or a judge has never sworn in front of a lawyer while they're in chambers, then I have some oceanfront property in Kansas that I'd like to sell you at a fair price.
I think he means any time you are in court, for anything, would you say it? Would you take your neighbor to court for building something on your lawn and walk into the courtroom and ask the judge "how the F are you?"
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 10, 2023, 01:32:57 PMI think he means any time you are in court, for anything, would you say it? Would you take your neighbor to court for building something on your lawn and walk into the courtroom and ask the judge "how the F are you?"
It. Depends.
I think we all agree that profanity is appropriate in some situations and inappropriate in others, so I'm not sure why the fact that I (probably) wouldn't swear in front of a judge is supposed to be some sort of gotcha moment.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 01:22:57 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 10, 2023, 12:11:26 PMI will say there have been movies where I preferred that they were edited for TV because I thought the profanity was out of place and I had no idea why the director thought it made the scene better. I'm not advocating for censorship of movies as Blazing Saddles should never be edited. I just think directors should use it when it fits the context and not because they're trying for some rating or some BS "authenticity" where it's not authentic.
I don't know if I've ever seen a film or TV show (or play, for that matter) where the swearing was gratuitous or out of character. And I do think it's possible to use profanity effectively. Exhibit A:
While I wish it were mostly absent on TV including most streaming channels. I agree that there are situations where swearing is justified and useful for the plot or attitude of the media. I saw Roger Waters a couple of months ago. There was seldom a sentence on the video that lacked an F-Bomb. It was gratuitous, perhaps even intended to be offensive.
While I mentioned Yellowstone, 1923 is where the use of F-bombs is excessive and over the top. I remember in my twenties a drunken friend (female) said it over and over. Why? Because she ****ing could. Just because you can say something (anything) doesn't mean you should.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 02:10:11 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 01:22:57 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 10, 2023, 12:11:26 PMI will say there have been movies where I preferred that they were edited for TV because I thought the profanity was out of place and I had no idea why the director thought it made the scene better. I'm not advocating for censorship of movies as Blazing Saddles should never be edited. I just think directors should use it when it fits the context and not because they're trying for some rating or some BS "authenticity" where it's not authentic.
I don't know if I've ever seen a film or TV show (or play, for that matter) where the swearing was gratuitous or out of character. And I do think it's possible to use profanity effectively. Exhibit A:
While I wish it were mostly absent on TV including most streaming channels. I agree that there are situations where swearing is justified and useful for the plot or attitude of the media. I saw Roger Waters a couple of months ago. There was seldom a sentence on the video that lacked an F-Bomb. It was gratuitous, perhaps even intended to be offensive.
While I mentioned Yellowstone, 1923 is where the use of F-bombs is excessive and over the top. I remember in my twenties a drunken friend (female) said it over and over. Why? Because she ****ing could. Just because you can say something (anything) doesn't mean you should.
On most "reality" shows, they will air and everyone on the show lets the F bombs fly. now, the beep them out (not bleep, it's a beep) and even I find that infuriating. Used to, if someone cursed, they usually cut that content entirely because, not only would they not air the word, but they wouldn't air the context leading up to the word for fear that people would get offended by hearing the context. Alot of times, if cursing was present, they just cut it entirely from the audio. The beeps now I swear are a way to draw attention to the cursing, and in many way (particularly when kids are around) it can be equally offensive.
After typing all that, I want to make it clear that I am not offended like I can't believe my virgin ears are hearing this. I am offended like, "why does everything have to be so filthy." Its more that I am disappointed in our society.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 10, 2023, 09:12:24 AM
Jokes aside, society has become too vulgar with its word choices. I think the most gratuitous example is a subreddit that I sometimes see on my home page, "r/interestingasf***". And when I see it, I'm thinking: is that really necessary? Do you really need to browse a forum with a name like that?
I think the same thing almost every time I click on a certain Google Maps thread on this forum.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 11:50:33 AM
I'll turn it around. Just out of curiosity, when you do think it is appropriate to use profanity? (For the record, I've cursed in front of the owner of companies that I've worked for. Pick and choose a time, sure, but it was fitting given the context.)
Never. Even if it might be deemed "appropriate" in some contexts and not in others, when you boil it right down it's never actually necessary. As a good friend of mine once said (I believe repeating something he was told as a kid), swearing just means you're lacking vocabulary. I couldn't agree more, and he's certainly proved it by coming up with some pretty hilarious expressions to use instead (think Captain Haddock).
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 11:50:33 AM
I'll turn it around. Just out of curiosity, when you do think it is appropriate to use profanity? (For the record, I've cursed in front of the owner of companies that I've worked for. Pick and choose a time, sure, but it was fitting given the context.)
Never. Even if it might be deemed "appropriate" in some contexts and not in others, when you boil it right down it's never actually necessary. As a good friend of mine once said (I believe repeating something he was told as a kid), swearing just means you're lacking vocabulary. I couldn't agree more, and he's certainly proved it by coming up with some pretty hilarious expressions to use instead (think Captain Haddock).
I mean, it's never necessary to use the word "lacking". You could have said missing, deficient, without, sans, etc. But you said it anyway. Necessity isn't the best measure. And, really, what difference is there between saying "Mother Trucker" and M*** F***? We know what you mean. Why do a string of letters get people so bent out of shape?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 11:50:33 AM
I'll turn it around. Just out of curiosity, when you do think it is appropriate to use profanity? (For the record, I've cursed in front of the owner of companies that I've worked for. Pick and choose a time, sure, but it was fitting given the context.)
Never. Even if it might be deemed "appropriate" in some contexts and not in others, when you boil it right down it's never actually necessary. As a good friend of mine once said (I believe repeating something he was told as a kid), swearing just means you're lacking vocabulary. I couldn't agree more, and he's certainly proved it by coming up with some pretty hilarious expressions to use instead (think Captain Haddock ).
I mean, it's never necessary to use the word "lacking". You could have said missing, deficient, without, sans, etc. But you said it anyway. Necessity isn't the best measure. And, really, what difference is there between saying "Mother Trucker" and M*** F***? We know what you mean. Why do a string of letters get people so bent out of shape?
It's attention-robbing after a while, that's what. When the same extreme words are used repeatedly, they lose their meaning, remove context, and don't have the same emphasis. The words themselves were meant to explain religious, reproductive, or excretory functions but wound up being used in place of more meaningful discussion. They are just words just as these are no more than pixels. But if they're used towards an individual, they're far more potent, and one has the right to be offended by it; after all, words have meaning and the user is responsible for those actions. But towards anything else, it's just an example of polarizing talk which waters down discussion to the lowest common denominator, which reduces the value and form of language.See what I mean? :)
Quote from: formulanone on January 10, 2023, 03:25:47 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 11:50:33 AM
I'll turn it around. Just out of curiosity, when you do think it is appropriate to use profanity? (For the record, I've cursed in front of the owner of companies that I've worked for. Pick and choose a time, sure, but it was fitting given the context.)
Never. Even if it might be deemed "appropriate" in some contexts and not in others, when you boil it right down it's never actually necessary. As a good friend of mine once said (I believe repeating something he was told as a kid), swearing just means you're lacking vocabulary. I couldn't agree more, and he's certainly proved it by coming up with some pretty hilarious expressions to use instead (think Captain Haddock ).
I mean, it's never necessary to use the word "lacking". You could have said missing, deficient, without, sans, etc. But you said it anyway. Necessity isn't the best measure. And, really, what difference is there between saying "Mother Trucker" and M*** F***? We know what you mean. Why do a string of letters get people so bent out of shape?
It's attention-robbing after a while, that's what. When the same extreme words are used repeatedly, they lose their meaning, remove context, and don't have the same emphasis.
See what I mean? :)
I know your post is tongue in cheek, but I've actually heard that before. If I say something is effing amazing, I want emphasis, much like Spanish uses Ãsimo (i.e. muchÃsimo gracias meaning thank you so, so much). That loses the f-words meaning as much as had I said "very, very amazing" reduces the meaning of "very".
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 11:50:33 AM
I'll turn it around. Just out of curiosity, when you do think it is appropriate to use profanity? (For the record, I've cursed in front of the owner of companies that I've worked for. Pick and choose a time, sure, but it was fitting given the context.)
Never. Even if it might be deemed "appropriate" in some contexts and not in others, when you boil it right down it's never actually necessary. As a good friend of mine once said (I believe repeating something he was told as a kid), swearing just means you're lacking vocabulary. I couldn't agree more, and he's certainly proved it by coming up with some pretty hilarious expressions to use instead (think Captain Haddock).
I mean, it's never necessary to use the word "lacking". You could have said missing, deficient, without, sans, etc. But you said it anyway. Necessity isn't the best measure. And, really, what difference is there between saying "Mother Trucker" and M*** F***? We know what you mean. Why do a string of letters get people so bent out of shape?
The difference is that the word "lacking" was part of my actual point, whereas profanity is usually an additive and wouldn't have to be replaced with a synonym.
No comment on the second part... I hesitated to even contribute to this thread because I didn't want to get into that debate, and I don't want to box myself into the corner of sounding supremely self-righteous, which is where that would be headed even though that's not how I meant it. :-D
My friend with ADHD I mentioned in another thread, did a stupid something I didn't like. We were talking about the George Floyd thing. I thought my friend was telling me the cop had a history of drug related stuff. And when I tried to verify who he meant as he used the pronoun "him" which could be either the cop or Floyd, he clarified by using the N word.
Needless to say I stopped being friends with him immediately. aDHD or not, he was fully aware of his racist remark. I de friended him on FB and blocked his number and don't miss the guy anyhow for other reasons too.
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:32:20 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 11:50:33 AM
I'll turn it around. Just out of curiosity, when you do think it is appropriate to use profanity? (For the record, I've cursed in front of the owner of companies that I've worked for. Pick and choose a time, sure, but it was fitting given the context.)
Never. Even if it might be deemed "appropriate" in some contexts and not in others, when you boil it right down it's never actually necessary. As a good friend of mine once said (I believe repeating something he was told as a kid), swearing just means you're lacking vocabulary. I couldn't agree more, and he's certainly proved it by coming up with some pretty hilarious expressions to use instead (think Captain Haddock).
I mean, it's never necessary to use the word "lacking". You could have said missing, deficient, without, sans, etc. But you said it anyway. Necessity isn't the best measure. And, really, what difference is there between saying "Mother Trucker" and M*** F***? We know what you mean. Why do a string of letters get people so bent out of shape?
The difference is that the word "lacking" was part of my actual point, whereas profanity is usually an additive and wouldn't have to be replaced with a synonym.
No comment on the second part... I hesitated to even contribute to this thread because I didn't want to get into that debate, and I don't want to box myself into the corner of sounding supremely self-righteous, which is where that would be headed even though that's not how I meant it. :-D
That's the point I'm making though. "Lacking" could have been replaced by any of those other words I suggested. In the context of my quote, "effing" could be replaced by absolutely, awe-inspiringly, ridiculously, etc. But, it wasn't. Just like "lacking" wasn't in your case. Had I said "this post is ridiculously awesome", you wouldn't have told me the word "ridiculously" was unnecessary. I just don't understand the hand-wringing that takes place because of the choice of one synonym or another.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 03:39:12 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:32:20 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 11:50:33 AM
I'll turn it around. Just out of curiosity, when you do think it is appropriate to use profanity? (For the record, I've cursed in front of the owner of companies that I've worked for. Pick and choose a time, sure, but it was fitting given the context.)
Never. Even if it might be deemed "appropriate" in some contexts and not in others, when you boil it right down it's never actually necessary. As a good friend of mine once said (I believe repeating something he was told as a kid), swearing just means you're lacking vocabulary. I couldn't agree more, and he's certainly proved it by coming up with some pretty hilarious expressions to use instead (think Captain Haddock).
I mean, it's never necessary to use the word "lacking". You could have said missing, deficient, without, sans, etc. But you said it anyway. Necessity isn't the best measure. And, really, what difference is there between saying "Mother Trucker" and M*** F***? We know what you mean. Why do a string of letters get people so bent out of shape?
The difference is that the word "lacking" was part of my actual point, whereas profanity is usually an additive and wouldn't have to be replaced with a synonym.
No comment on the second part... I hesitated to even contribute to this thread because I didn't want to get into that debate, and I don't want to box myself into the corner of sounding supremely self-righteous, which is where that would be headed even though that's not how I meant it. :-D
That's the point I'm making though. "Lacking" could have been replaced by any of those other words I suggested. In the context of my quote, "effing" could be replaced by absolutely, awe-inspiringly, ridiculously, etc. But, it wasn't. Just like "lacking" wasn't in your case. Had I said "this post is ridiculously awesome", you wouldn't have told me the word "ridiculously" was unnecessary. I just don't understand the hand-wringing that takes place because of the choice of one synonym or another.
I disagree. You are talking synonyms vs. using a different adjective. If you said "this sandwich is F-ing fantastic", a synonym would be "this sandwich is sexing fantastic" or fornicating, screwing or intercorsing. It really makes no sense that way, since these words are very seldom or never used as adjectives. A different adjective would be "this sandwich is freaking amazing", proving that the cursing wasn't really necessary except to really put an exclamation point on how good you think that sandwich was.
Any adjective can be substituted for another adjective that may not be a synonym. Using lacking in lieu of missing is a direct swap. It's like when the Rangers traded Ruben Sierra for Jose Canseco. A star for a star; pretty even trade, as opposed to these trades where one guy is traded for three players and a minor leaguer to be named later. :-D
The establishment of baseless rules against other people, as a basis of judging against them for their failure to comply, is the real travesty.
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 10, 2023, 09:12:24 AM
Jokes aside, society has become too vulgar with its word choices. I think the most gratuitous example is a subreddit that I sometimes see on my home page, "r/interestingasf***". And when I see it, I'm thinking: is that really necessary? Do you really need to browse a forum with a name like that?
I think the same thing almost every time I click on a certain Google Maps thread on this forum.
Do you remember when sucks was considered nearly as bad? Probably not given your age, but it seems like it was a bad word thru the 80's or so. I remember Harry Anderson saying it in an episode of Night Court and it being controversial, and this was like 1989 or so.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AM
Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company?
The CEO of my company created a thread on this forum entitled "Google Maps just fucking SUCKS now", so yes. Yes I would.
I've posted my thoughts on the subject before:
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 22, 2021, 07:37:56 PM
When I was younger, my parents strictly forbid profanity and I'd get spanked if I said so much as "damn". Then I grew up and realized they're just words, and, just like any other word, carry an unspoken connotation that sometimes makes it where choosing a swear word can communicate one's point with more precision than any other word. "That's very disgusting", "that's extremely disgusting", and "that's fucking disgusting" all communicate three very different levels of disgust by the speaker (and to me, at least, I read the first two as the speaker being less disgusted themselves and speaking in a more detached manner than the third). As someone who prides myself on my abilities with the written word, choosing to eliminate fucking from my vocabulary makes about as much sense as a painter eliminating orange from their palette would.
Quote from: SectorZ on January 10, 2023, 04:15:52 PM
Do you remember when sucks was considered nearly as bad? Probably not given your age, but it seems like it was a bad word thru the 80's or so. I remember Harry Anderson saying it in an episode of Night Court and it being controversial, and this was like 1989 or so.
I remember various authority figures tried to make "shut up" a curse word when I was growing up. Also, "gay". Granted, in the 1990s, most people were using it as an insult, which shouldn't have been done. But if someone were to theoretically try to discuss someone who was actually gay they would have gotten into trouble.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 10, 2023, 03:57:15 PM
I disagree. You are talking synonyms vs. using a different adjective. If you said "this sandwich is F-ing fantastic", a synonym would be "this sandwich is sexing fantastic" or fornicating, screwing or intercorsing. It really makes no sense that way, since these words are very seldom or never used as adjectives. A different adjective would be "this sandwich is freaking amazing", proving that the cursing wasn't really necessary except to really put an exclamation point on how good you think that sandwich was.
Any adjective can be substituted for another adjective that may not be a synonym. Using lacking in lieu of missing is a direct swap. It's like when the Rangers traded Ruben Sierra for Jose Canseco. A star for a star; pretty even trade, as opposed to these trades where one guy is traded for three players and a minor leaguer to be named later. :-D
A) The exclamation point would be the reason to use the word in the first place, so objective achieved. B) "Effing" has more than one meaning, so therefore more than one set of synonyms. Off the top of my head, in different contexts it can have the following word as synonyms: very, fornicating, goofing, leaving, etc.
The word is only a "swear word" because it was the word of the proletariat and not the elite in England who preferred the Latin words.
**Trigger warning. About to use profanity.**
Cock = Old English, Penis = Latin
Piss = Old French, Urinate = Latin
Shit = Germanic, Defecate = Latin
Fuck = Germanic, Fornicate = Latin
They meant the exact same thing once upon a time and, in reality, do now too. One just got "spanked".
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 12:30:19 PM
(I'm aware this was a restaurant, not a bar.)
You're smarter than some Utah state legislators, then, who need to be handed this stuff on a silver platter:
(https://deseret.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/dc2495b/2147483647/strip/true/crop/1200x900+0+0/resize/566x425!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.vox-cdn.com%2Fthumbor%2FbtuBWBsJ_LHlSYlM2VmgyI2mu0U%3D%2F0x0%3A1200x900%2F1200x900%2Ffilters%3Afocal%28600x450%3A601x451%29%2Fcdn.vox-cdn.com%2Fuploads%2Fchorus_asset%2Ffile%2F18024423%2F1831381.jpg)
That just prevents (prevented?) the private club membership from being enforced, yeah?
Quote from: roadman65 on January 10, 2023, 11:20:49 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on January 10, 2023, 11:16:44 AM
I remember one time when I was about 11, some kid muttered the F-word at a store. I think it was our local Kmart. Some old woman heard him and got really mad!
Once about 5 years ago, I was in Kroger, and some kid who was about 10 was there with his family. He loudly ranted for a half-hour that he got a lousy toy from one of those coin-operated vending machines that dispenses a random toy. He used every word in the book!
Not to violate what MMM was last reprimanded for, but the kid was no doubt possible on the spectrum as it sounds like a child in the news who was asked to leave a flight cause she was ranting quite loudly disturbing the other passengers over something silly. That was reported in the news of the teen being Autistic who was problematic.
The airline should be sued for discrimination. People aren't entitled to a perfectly peaceful flight. It's for transportation, and the way they treat customers like criminals from the moment one enters the premises, and make 1 hr flights take 5 hrs, they've got nerve to whine about things like that. It's getting so bad that even senators (who usually don't care much about citizens quality of life) are calling for passengers to have a bill of rights.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 04:54:30 PM
That just prevents (prevented?) the private club membership from being enforced, yeah?
The private club law hasn't been a thing since 2009.
Those signs were introduced a few years back basically because one of the old Mormon dudes in the legislature got offended once when he walked into what he thought was a restaurant but was actually a bar. The signs were apparently part of a compromise that included repealing the Zion Curtain law, which required an opaque (generally frosted glass) barrier so no innocent young minds eating in restaurants could be corrupted by the sight of mixed drinks being made. Instead, restaurants may now dispose of the Curtain as long as they have a 10-foot buffer zone around the bar area where minors aren't allowed to sit.
The sign aspect of the law was repealed after a year because literally everybody thought it was dumb.
Quote from: US 89 on January 10, 2023, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 04:54:30 PM
That just prevents (prevented?) the private club membership from being enforced, yeah?
The private club law hasn't been a thing since 2009.
Those signs were introduced a few years back basically because one of the old Mormon dudes in the legislature got offended once when he walked into what he thought was a restaurant but was actually a bar. They were evidently part of a compromise that also included repealing the Zion Curtain law, which required an opaque (generally frosted glass) barrier so no innocent young minds eating in restaurants could be corrupted by the sight of mixed drinks being made. Instead, restaurants may now dispose of the Curtain as long as they have a 10-foot buffer zone around the bar area where minors aren't allowed to sit.
The sign law was repealed within a year because literally everybody thought it was dumb.
I knew about the magic curtain law. I'm assuming they still have the "you can't have a drink until you've ordered food" law?
On the other hand, my father's LDS congregation in American Fork when he was a kid, according to him, had great dances for the youth...until one of the local leaders decided they turned the church gym into something that resembled a bar...
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
"Words are just words." Yes, of course, there isn't anything inherently good or bad about a combination of sounds. But words only exist within a cultural context. When you choose a word that is widely considered offensive within your culture, then you accept the cultural baggage that comes with it. Don't be surprised when people are offended. You made the decision. By this point in your life, you've learned a dozen different ways of saying the same basic thing. When a swear word has just the right amount of oomph for the connotation you wish to convey, then it's likely you can find another, less offensive word that would come awfully close. And, when you still decide to go with the swear word, then that decision must necessarily consider what other people think about that word. And if you don't consider what other people think of the specific words you say, then you're languaging wrongly–and fooling yourself too.
Quote from: kphoger on January 10, 2023, 06:49:31 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
"Words are just words." Yes, of course, there isn't anything inherently good or bad about a combination of sounds. But words only exist within a cultural context. When you choose a word that is widely considered offensive within your culture, then you accept the cultural baggage that comes with it. Don't be surprised when people are offended. You made the decision. By this point in your life, you've learned a dozen different ways of saying the same basic thing. When a swear word has just the right amount of oomph for the connotation you wish to convey, then it's likely you can find another, less offensive word that would come awfully close. And, when you still decide to go with the swear word, then that decision must necessarily consider what other people think about that word. And if you don't consider what other people think of the specific words you say, then you're languaging wrongly–and fooling yourself too.
As always, I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Yes, people could convey meaning without using swear words. But also those who think the words are the spawn of Satan need to realize that they are "just words". I don't swear casually in public situations that wouldn't be welcoming of such things, but even if I do, it's quiet enough to my conversation partner that no one need be concerned.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 06:59:01 PM
As always, I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Yes, people could convey meaning without using swear words. But also those who think the words are the spawn of Satan need to realize that they are "just words". I don't swear casually in public situations that wouldn't be welcoming of such things, but even if I do, it's quiet enough to my conversation partner that no one need be concerned.
So, like, you exercise common sense?
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 10:41:37 AM
I remember Dennis Rodman dropping an f-bomb during the victory rally after the Bulls won the championship in 1993. It was being carried live on WGN.
Your memory must be clouded, because at this point in 1993, Rodman didn't dye his hair, and he damn sure did not play for the Bulls. You're probably thinking about a championship rally that occurred between 1996 and 1998.
As long as we're on the subject of Chicago sports championship rallies, Blackhawks goalie Corey Crawford was well-known for dropping F-bombs in his speeches. The one I remember most is "Fucking right, Chicago!"
I used to think that "bastard" and "son of a bitch" meant the same thing; is there anyone else who felt the same way? Of course, the latter's "bitch" was often changed to "gun" in media edits, with one prominent example being the Charlie Daniels Band's The Devil Went Down to Georgia. But then again, no one calls anybody an SOG, not that I know of anyway.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 03:30:33 PM
Quote from: formulanone on January 10, 2023, 03:25:47 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 11:50:33 AM
I'll turn it around. Just out of curiosity, when you do think it is appropriate to use profanity? (For the record, I've cursed in front of the owner of companies that I've worked for. Pick and choose a time, sure, but it was fitting given the context.)
Never. Even if it might be deemed "appropriate" in some contexts and not in others, when you boil it right down it's never actually necessary. As a good friend of mine once said (I believe repeating something he was told as a kid), swearing just means you're lacking vocabulary. I couldn't agree more, and he's certainly proved it by coming up with some pretty hilarious expressions to use instead (think Captain Haddock ).
I mean, it's never necessary to use the word "lacking". You could have said missing, deficient, without, sans, etc. But you said it anyway. Necessity isn't the best measure. And, really, what difference is there between saying "Mother Trucker" and M*** F***? We know what you mean. Why do a string of letters get people so bent out of shape?
It's attention-robbing after a while, that's what. When the same extreme words are used repeatedly, they lose their meaning, remove context, and don't have the same emphasis.
See what I mean? :)
I know your post is tongue in cheek, but I've actually heard that before. If I say something is effing amazing, I want emphasis, much like Spanish uses Ãsimo (i.e. muchÃsimo gracias meaning thank you so, so much). That loses the f-words meaning as much as had I said "very, very amazing" reduces the meaning of "very".
Yes, saying very, very, very, is childish. But saying "as fuck" comes off as a teenager who just learned a new phrase that doesn't really mean much either. It would lose meaning just as any other word that's trendy or overused would begin to sound trite after a while. The problem is that not everyone knows all the same twenty-five-cent words, though they may know the fifty-cent ones. Most people watch TV and consume social media, they don't read books nor take deeper dives into intellectual pursuits.
But I think because those words are thought of as naughty, or become societally repressed that they've stuck around, because they get the attention they were intending in the first place. There's some age in context to be sure; to a 10-year-old, a dirty word is a powerful spell they haven't learned to master, so they make sure to use it every chance they can, until they're bored of it (or realize they had no idea of what they were saying). Just like that annoying co-worker or media personality who says the same cliché catchphrase every day.
To be sure, using it sparingly and tactically is still a fine weapon; that's when it works...that's the opposite of gratuitously. As the original post said, it gets tiresome hearing the same words over and over again. It's lazy writing and peppered into weak dialogue that isn't lifting up anything, it just wants us to be as miserable or attention-seeking as the characters in the box.
Gotta admit, it's probably tough creating entertainment in these times, when life seems a lot more prone to chaos and adventure than any team of writers could concoct.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 05:07:46 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 10, 2023, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 04:54:30 PM
That just prevents (prevented?) the private club membership from being enforced, yeah?
The private club law hasn't been a thing since 2009.
Those signs were introduced a few years back basically because one of the old Mormon dudes in the legislature got offended once when he walked into what he thought was a restaurant but was actually a bar. They were evidently part of a compromise that also included repealing the Zion Curtain law, which required an opaque (generally frosted glass) barrier so no innocent young minds eating in restaurants could be corrupted by the sight of mixed drinks being made. Instead, restaurants may now dispose of the Curtain as long as they have a 10-foot buffer zone around the bar area where minors aren't allowed to sit.
The sign law was repealed within a year because literally everybody thought it was dumb.
I knew about the magic curtain law. I'm assuming they still have the "you can't have a drink until you've ordered food" law?
I believe it's still on the books, but actual compliance with it seems to have dropped a bit in recent years among restaurants.
Enforcement is probably down a bit too. Current Utah Gov. Spencer Cox, while Mormon himself, has shown some real interest in revamping Utah's liquor laws to look more like what you'd find in the rest of the country. The Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control was renamed to the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Services under his tenure, for example. However, any real change requires the state legislature to be on board, and they are generally a much older and more traditionalist group.
Quote from: kphoger on January 10, 2023, 07:00:20 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 06:59:01 PM
As always, I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Yes, people could convey meaning without using swear words. But also those who think the words are the spawn of Satan need to realize that they are "just words". I don't swear casually in public situations that wouldn't be welcoming of such things, but even if I do, it's quiet enough to my conversation partner that no one need be concerned.
So, like, you exercise common sense?
Shocking it still exists, eh?
Quote from: Henry on January 10, 2023, 07:45:32 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 10:41:37 AM
I remember Dennis Rodman dropping an f-bomb during the victory rally after the Bulls won the championship in 1993. It was being carried live on WGN.
Your memory must be clouded, because at this point in 1993, Rodman didn't dye his hair, and he damn sure did not play for the Bulls. You're probably thinking about a championship rally that occurred between 1996 and 1998.
Ah, yeah, probably.
Quote from: Henry on January 10, 2023, 07:45:32 PMI used to think that "bastard" and "son of a bitch" meant the same thing; is there anyone else who felt the same way? Of course, the latter's "bitch" was often changed to "gun" in media edits, with one prominent example being the Charlie Daniels Band's The Devil Went Down to Georgia. But then again, no one calls anybody an SOG, not that I know of anyway.
When they were editing the TV version of Smokey and the Bandit, they invented the term "scumbum" to replace Buford T. Justice's use of the term "sumbitch."
I can think of many otherwise good films that were ruined due to overuse of the f-word.
Unless it's absolutely necessary to make a point, swear words just make the speaker sound uneducated and tactless.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 08:17:17 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 10, 2023, 07:00:20 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 06:59:01 PM
As always, I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Yes, people could convey meaning without using swear words. But also those who think the words are the spawn of Satan need to realize that they are "just words". I don't swear casually in public situations that wouldn't be welcoming of such things, but even if I do, it's quiet enough to my conversation partner that no one need be concerned.
So, like, you exercise common sense?
Shocking it still exists, eh?
There's a very, very short list of times that I almost got into a physical fight. #2 on that list was the time my family were walking into Wal-Mart, and a lady in a car that was parallel-parked near the entrance was cussing up a storm–worse than what I hear at work, and I work with cable guys. The windows were down (duh, or else I couldn't have heard her), and her husband was in the driver's seat. My boys were quite young at the time. I said, "Excuse me, sir, would you please have your wife watch her language around my children?" He got out of the car, came around the front, and stood in front of me.
– You got a problem?
– Yes.
– [dumbfounded silence]
– Do you have a problem with my wife?
– Yes. Would you please tell her to watch her language around my children?
– You got a problem with my wife, you got a problem with me.
– [a stare-off . . . ]
He got back in the car. His wife resumed cussing up a storm, but this time directed at me instead of whomever she was going on about originally. My wife and sons were standing off to the side, patiently awaiting the outcome. We headed into Wal-Mart. My wife held my hand and told me she loved me.
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on January 10, 2023, 09:21:51 PM
I can think of many otherwise good films that were ruined due to overuse of the f-word.
Unless it's absolutely necessary to make a point, swear words just make the speaker sound uneducated and tactless.
HEAR Hear!
Swearing adds spice to language. "Fuck" is an incredibly versatile word that can be used in all sorts of creative ways.
There's been a few studies into the science of swearing and cursing that have found some interesting things, such as its relationship to intelligence (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S038800011400151X?via%3Dihub), honesty (https://www.academia.edu/29725191/Frankly_we_do_give_a_damn_The_relationship_between_profanity_and_honesty), pain tolerance (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090713085453.htm), and stress relief (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19590391/).
In short, lighten the fuck up.
Quote from: Bruce on January 10, 2023, 11:22:23 PM
Swearing adds spice to language. "Fuck" is an incredibly versatile word that can be used in all sorts of creative ways.
There's been a few studies into the science of swearing and cursing that have found some interesting things, such as its relationship to intelligence (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S038800011400151X?via%3Dihub), honesty (https://www.academia.edu/29725191/Frankly_we_do_give_a_damn_The_relationship_between_profanity_and_honesty), pain tolerance (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090713085453.htm), and stress relief (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19590391/).
In short, lighten the fuck up.
HEAR Hear!
It's far healthier to let off steam gradually and non-violently. Using foul language to diffuse anger or frustration is far less harmful then letting it build into an explosive, violent rage. It's a strategy for stress relief. When you take this strategy off the table, for fear of closed-minded puritans condemning your behavior, you set the course for more destructive demonstrations of such frustration or anger. I actually don't feel as comfortable with other people if they don't swear. People who don't swear are people who put on airs, and judge against others for baseless reasons- or they simply fear becoming the victim of this judgment. But I prefer to surround myself with people who don't need to make up reasons to feel superior to other people.
Quote from: kphoger on January 10, 2023, 09:28:06 PM
...
My wife held my hand and told me she loved me.
Yeah, she probably thought she (and you) were lucky you were still alive.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 11, 2023, 09:28:44 AM
It's far healthier to let off steam gradually and non-violently. Using foul language to diffuse anger or frustration is far less harmful then letting it build into an explosive, violent rage. It's a strategy for stress relief. When you take this strategy off the table, for fear of closed-minded puritans condemning your behavior, you set the course for more destructive demonstrations of such frustration or anger. I actually don't feel as comfortable with other people if they don't swear. People who don't swear are people who put on airs, and judge against others for baseless reasons- or they simply fear becoming the victim of this judgment. But I prefer to surround myself with people who don't need to make up reasons to feel superior to other people.
Meanwhile, the rest of us prefer to surround ourselves with people who use respectful language.
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on January 10, 2023, 09:21:51 PM
I can think of many otherwise good films that were ruined due to overuse of the f-word.
End of Watch immediately comes to mind. There's a short scene near the end where the baddies are yelling at each other and more than every other word is the f-word. The scene caused laughter for the resulting nonsense sentences rather than tension over how they were going to trap their pursuers.
For reference:
Swear = what you do under oath.
Curse = wishing harm to someone else. "Fuck you" is a curse.
Expletive = doesn't change the meaning of the sentence. "It's so fucking cold out today" contains an expletive. (This is just an example; it's not actually the case currently.)
This is why I generally use the term "profanity" when discussing this subject.
Quote from: 1 on January 11, 2023, 10:38:20 AM
For reference:
Swear = what you do under oath.
Curse = wishing harm to someone else. "Fuck you" is a curse.
Expletive = doesn't change the meaning of the sentence. "It's so fucking cold out today" contains an expletive. (This is just an example; it's not actually the case currently.)
This is why I generally use the term "profanity" when discussing this subject.
The distinction is more fuzzy than that. The word 'swear' has also been used for foul language for about 600 years by this point.
It's theorized that this is because one might invoke the name of a deity or other spirit in order to issue a curse against someone, and that, because such sacred names were otherwise 'off limits' for people to say, any language deemed inappropriate for casual speech was likewise called 'cursing'. And, because such sacred names were also used in swearing an oath, inappropriate language was also called 'swearing'. In fact, even the word 'oaths' itself can refer to foul language.
More properly, the word 'profanity' has only been used for foul language since the 19th Century, and it started out referring specifically to speech that blasphemed the name of God. So, for example, 'Jumping Jesus Christ!' would have been considered profanity because it used the Lord's name in a vulgar/profane fashion. Nowadays, of course, it can mean more than just that. Personally, I like the newer, broader scope: foul language is the normal pattern of speech for profane people.
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 10:56:07 AM
So, for example, 'Jumping Jesus Christ!' would have been considered profanity because it used the Lord's name in a vulgar/profane fashion.
In the grand scheme of things, asking Him to jump while we take a leap of faith isn't really too much to ask.
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 10:33:00 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 11, 2023, 09:28:44 AM
It's far healthier to let off steam gradually and non-violently. Using foul language to diffuse anger or frustration is far less harmful then letting it build into an explosive, violent rage. It's a strategy for stress relief. When you take this strategy off the table, for fear of closed-minded puritans condemning your behavior, you set the course for more destructive demonstrations of such frustration or anger. I actually don't feel as comfortable with other people if they don't swear. People who don't swear are people who put on airs, and judge against others for baseless reasons- or they simply fear becoming the victim of this judgment. But I prefer to surround myself with people who don't need to make up reasons to feel superior to other people.
Meanwhile, the rest of us prefer to surround ourselves with people who use respectful language.
What if I told you that you could do both.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 11, 2023, 11:14:32 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 10:33:00 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 11, 2023, 09:28:44 AM
But I prefer to surround myself with people who don't need to make up reasons to feel superior to other people.
Meanwhile, the rest of us prefer to surround ourselves with people who use respectful language.
What if I told you that you could do both.
Best of both worlds, of course. But he said he feels less comfortable around people who don't swear. So, apparently, he can't have it both ways.
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 11:18:40 AM
But he said he feels less comfortable around people who don't swear. So, apparently, he can't have it both ways.
Meanwhile, I feel less comfortable around people who
do swear, especially in a public setting. Thank my upbringing for that.
And it's got nothing to do with feeling or being superior to others. It's about being respectful and having self control.
Quote from: webny99 on January 11, 2023, 11:22:48 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 11:18:40 AM
But he said he feels less comfortable around people who don't swear. So, apparently, he can't have it both ways.
Meanwhile, I feel less comfortable around people who do swear, especially in a public setting. Thank my upbringing for that.
I have kids, and although they're all in the double-digits now, there's still a tendency to curse out on occasion. But I've found it's way more interesting if you just yell out a weird or a made-up word when you hurt yourself or something bad happened.
I still like saying "son of a motherless goat" after hearing it eons ago in
Three Amigos.
Quote from: formulanone on January 11, 2023, 11:28:44 AM
Quote from: webny99 on January 11, 2023, 11:22:48 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 11:18:40 AM
But he said he feels less comfortable around people who don't swear. So, apparently, he can't have it both ways.
Meanwhile, I feel less comfortable around people who do swear, especially in a public setting. Thank my upbringing for that.
I have kids, and although they're all in the double-digits now, there's still a tendency to curse out on occasion. But I've found it's way more interesting if you just yell out a weird or a made-up word when you hurt yourself or something bad happened.
I still like saying "son of a motherless goat" after hearing it eons ago in Three Amigos.
Hard +1, if it wasn't obvious from my comments earlier. Made-up words and expressions are almost never offensive to anyone and almost always more interesting and more humorous than the profane alternatives.
Quote from: formulanone on January 11, 2023, 11:28:44 AM
Quote from: webny99 on January 11, 2023, 11:22:48 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 11:18:40 AM
But he said he feels less comfortable around people who don't swear. So, apparently, he can't have it both ways.
Meanwhile, I feel less comfortable around people who do swear, especially in a public setting. Thank my upbringing for that.
I have kids, and although they're all in the double-digits now, there's still a tendency to curse out on occasion. But I've found it's way more interesting if you just yell out a weird or a made-up word when you hurt yourself or something bad happened.
I still like saying "son of a motherless goat" after hearing it eons ago in Three Amigos.
When I'm by myself, and I do something that really ticks me off–like working for ten minutes trying to remove some little doodad from something, say, and then stabbing my own hand with the screwdriver or knife I've been using–there's nothing better to make me feel right again than muttering under my breath:
Goddamned motherfucking son a a BITCH! I mean, in that type of situation, you really have to string together as many of them as possible. And say the final one with force.
Monday evening, we were taking down the Christmas decorations, and I was taking the 500-yard string of lights off the tree. I had done a really good job putting them on, by which I mean I had wrapped about 4000 of the lights pretty close to the trunk in order that more than just the outer branches would light up–which in turn meant doing approximately one or two zillion revolutions around the tree, getting the strand tangled in the branches, having to back up every so often and undo a tangle, and tearing up my hands from constantly squeezing them between all the poky stuff. I was getting irritated; my eldest son even went downstairs saying 'Dad's in a bad mood'. At one point I said to the family, 'If you hear me swear, don't be worried.' My wife looked at me and said, 'Honey, I don't think I've
ever heard you swear.'
Apparently, I do a pretty good job of only muttering those strings of profanity when I'm off by myself.
But, at any rate, my favorite non-swear profanity is 'Son of a biscuit-eating Armenian!'
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AM
Would you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
People need to read the room. I was in a meeting a few years ago when a presenter dropped the f-bomb as casually as one might say "asphalt" or "bridge" or any other road-related word. In the meeting -- a small group of probably around 20 people -- there was a pastor, the wife of a pastor, and several devout Christians. A number of people expressed their shock at him for using that word without knowing the audience.
Hard core gangsta (c)rap. a hard no for me.
(not knowing if this has been mentioned yet upthread) when the late George Carlin said in one of his routines "well F***!, it's the beginning of life!"
Mike
I do remember reading that the first time someone dropped an f-bomb during a Second City show was very, very shortly after JFK was assassinated. An audience member offered the event as a suggestion for an improvised sketch, and a cast member responded "just what the fuck would you like us to do, sir?"
Relevant: YouTube has started demonitizing videos that include profanity in the first few seconds, even doing it retroactively. It's a fucking stupid idea that the puritan morons probably pushed for. Most users won't give a shit if a video has a few bits of profanity to spice up a boring script or be included in the natural flow of a live event.
Quote from: Bruce on January 11, 2023, 02:15:09 PM
Relevant: YouTube has started demonitizing videos that include profanity in the first few seconds, even doing it retroactively. It's a fucking stupid idea that the puritan morons probably pushed for. Most users won't give a shit if a video has a few bits of profanity to spice up a boring script or be included in the natural flow of a live event.
Youtube has the most snowflake censorship imaginable. Notice how on comment sections, it will always say 10+ replies but you can only see 3 of them. That's why I deleted my account over a year ago (and any other social media ever further back). Like, grow the fuck up. No one is entitled for the internet not to offend them or to cater to their hurt feelings. And then deleting dislike counts to "protect small content creators" (when we all the know the real reason was news videos on politically sensitive topics were getting RATIOed by a factor of 10). Unless you are committing a crime, or constant harassment, you should be able to say whatever you want, however you want, to anyone you want.
Quote from: Bruce on January 11, 2023, 02:15:09 PM
Relevant: YouTube has started demonitizing videos that include profanity in the first few seconds, even doing it retroactively. It's a fucking stupid idea that the puritan morons probably pushed for. Most users won't give a shit if a video has a few bits of profanity to spice up a boring script or be included in the natural flow of a live event.
It's because the advertisers don't want to have their ads play, immediately followed by someone using profanity. Otherwise, it seems like an endorsement. (YouTube advertising always has and always will have issues like this among others)
Quote from: hbelkins on January 11, 2023, 12:20:15 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AM
Would you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
People need to read the room. I was in a meeting a few years ago when a presenter dropped the f-bomb as casually as one might say "asphalt" or "bridge" or any other road-related word. In the meeting -- a small group of probably around 20 people -- there was a pastor, the wife of a pastor, and several devout Christians. A number of people expressed their shock at him for using that word without knowing the audience.
I purposely skipped Religious leaders and persons who practice their faith devoutly because that in itself evokes religion which in itself is very contentious. While the religious will vocally respond, they are far from the only ones who are uncomfortable with the casual use of profanity.
QuoteRelevant: YouTube has started demonitizing videos that include profanity in the first few seconds, even doing it retroactively. It's a fucking stupid idea that the puritan morons probably pushed for. Most users won't give a shit if a video has a few bits of profanity to spice up a boring script or be included in the natural flow of a live event.
I get that the under 40 crowd are more casual with profanity, but that doesn't make those of us who are not casual / comfortable with it
puritanic morons. My opinion is as valid as yours. For me there are fewer and fewer entertainment venues where I am truly comfortable and even fewer where I am comfortable consuming that entertainment with my kid around.
Quote from: Bruce on January 11, 2023, 02:15:09 PM
Relevant: YouTube has started demonitizing videos that include profanity in the first few seconds, even doing it retroactively. It's a fucking stupid idea that the puritan morons probably pushed for. Most users won't give a shit if a video has a few bits of profanity to spice up a boring script or be included in the natural flow of a live event.
Plenty of people watching YouTube with their children (or others') would disagree with you.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 11, 2023, 02:47:45 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 11, 2023, 12:20:15 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AM
Would you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
People need to read the room. I was in a meeting a few years ago when a presenter dropped the f-bomb as casually as one might say "asphalt" or "bridge" or any other road-related word. In the meeting -- a small group of probably around 20 people -- there was a pastor, the wife of a pastor, and several devout Christians. A number of people expressed their shock at him for using that word without knowing the audience.
I purposely skipped Religious leaders and persons who practice their faith devoutly because that in itself evokes religion which in itself is very contentious. While the religious will vocally respond, they are far from the only ones who are uncomfortable with the casual use of profanity.
QuoteRelevant: YouTube has started demonitizing videos that include profanity in the first few seconds, even doing it retroactively. It's a fucking stupid idea that the puritan morons probably pushed for. Most users won't give a shit if a video has a few bits of profanity to spice up a boring script or be included in the natural flow of a live event.
I get that the under 40 crowd are more casual with profanity, but that doesn't make those of us who are not casual / comfortable with it puritanic morons. My opinion is as valid as yours. For me there are fewer and fewer entertainmeent venues where I am truly comfortable and even fewer where I am comfortable consuming that entertainment with my kid around.
No one's forcing you to watch or like the video. The issue is excessive age restricting and OCD guidelines regarding cursing/"violent" content. Meanwhile, they have no trouble allowing ads with females in provocative clothing. Having to sign in just to watch a news video, or giving you trouble even though your birthday is clearly over 23 in your Gmail account. My initial YouTube account got banned just for "politically incorrect" comments (I didn't have a single video on my channel). So because of this I had to create a whole new fake gmail account just to sign in to watch such content/comment online (although for the most part I stopped commenting cause of the toxicity. Basically YouTube implemented everything users
didn't want, and shows their narcissism/political tyranny by removing dislikes. And I guarantee you, your kid doesn't give a shit about it, you are the one who does. :poke:
Youtube already has a Kids-only area (though the content there is probably worse for their development than a bit of profanity, but that's another topic). Trying to make the entire platform into a kids zone is bullshit.
Quote from: Bruce on January 11, 2023, 03:04:35 PM
Youtube already has a Kids-only area (though the content there is probably worse for their development than a bit of profanity, but that's another topic). Trying to make the entire platform into a kids zone is bullshit.
No, It has an area for preschoolers. There is clearly a place that is between YouTubeKids and what we see in YouTube
Quote from: bwana39 on January 11, 2023, 03:06:40 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 11, 2023, 03:04:35 PM
Youtube already has a Kids-only area (though the content there is probably worse for their development than a bit of profanity, but that's another topic). Trying to make the entire platform into a kids zone is bullshit.
No, It has an area for preschoolers. There is clearly a place that is between YouTubeKids and what we see in YouTube
Yes, thank you. My sons are all at least eight years old. YouTubeKids is targeted at an audience that's younger than that.
I just don't know why, if you're publishing content that you expect to be viewed by all sorts of people all over, that you wouldn't try and use socially acceptably language.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 11, 2023, 02:47:45 PM
I get that the under 40 crowd are more casual with profanity, but that doesn't make those of us who are not casual / comfortable with it puritanic morons. My opinion is as valid as yours. For me there are fewer and fewer entertainment venues where I am truly comfortable and even fewer where I am comfortable consuming that entertainment with my kid around.
Isn't your kid 40 years old or so?
Quote from: bwana39 on January 11, 2023, 08:12:26 AM
My kid was in middle school in the mid-90's. The textbook was a little older. The teacher was still teaching about the Soviet Union which was 5 years dissolved by that point.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 11, 2023, 03:06:40 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 11, 2023, 03:04:35 PM
Youtube already has a Kids-only area (though the content there is probably worse for their development than a bit of profanity, but that's another topic). Trying to make the entire platform into a kids zone is bullshit.
No, It has an area for preschoolers. There is clearly a place that is between YouTubeKids and what we see in YouTube
There is literally no excuse for the censorship crap YouTube pulls. Disabling dislikes, ghosting replies, making you sign in to watch certain videos, arbitrary age restrictions, banning users by the thousands for commenting against government policies, allowing toxic comments but deleting politically incorrect ones, and asking people to submit credit card info to verify age (no way I was going to do that so just created a fake account) the list goes on and on. Most of the content is fine for any age group. Personally, the thing that annoys me most is when music videos are the only type of videos that can't play picture-in-picture, like, those are the only type of videos you would want to play in the small window, so you can listen while doing other things on your device.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 11, 2023, 02:47:45 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 11, 2023, 12:20:15 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AM
Would you say it in front of your grandma? Would you say it in front of your grandchild? Would you say it to the CEO or Executive Director of your work organization / company? Would you say it over a microphone in a corporate setting? Would you say it amongst a group of strangers in your hometown?
People need to read the room. I was in a meeting a few years ago when a presenter dropped the f-bomb as casually as one might say "asphalt" or "bridge" or any other road-related word. In the meeting -- a small group of probably around 20 people -- there was a pastor, the wife of a pastor, and several devout Christians. A number of people expressed their shock at him for using that word without knowing the audience.
I purposely skipped Religious leaders and persons who practice their faith devoutly because that in itself evokes religion which in itself is very contentious. While the religious will vocally respond, they are far from the only ones who are uncomfortable with the casual use of profanity.
And on the other hand, I know several religious people who swear like sailors on their own time or with friends. That includes the 70-year-old pastor at the Presbyterian church I grew up going to.
The issues with YouTube are so numerous, that they really deserve a thread of their own.
I don't know how familiar everyone is with the inner workings of day-to-day YouTube, but as for me, I've been a pretty active user for almost ten years now. I watch videos, but I post videos as well. One of the worse things they have done lately was how they handled YouTube Kids and "Made for Kids" content. The changes that they made as a result of COPPA enforcement were terrible for certain communities (legitimate communities like animators, not talking about creeps going after children, they can get lost). If videos were deemed as "Made for Kids", you can't leave comments, you can't add them to playlists, you lose app background play on them, and monetization and recommendations are affected. In other words, YouTube becomes a glorified Google Drive page with little interaction.
I bring this up to say that YouTube have no idea how to handle kids content and profanity. They have YouTube Kids as it's own app, but then subject everyone to these restrictions on random videos. It's an incredibly dumb system. Not to mention, their automatic detection is terrible. It even will mark videos WITH profanity or gore in them as for kids. Throw that on top of what we've already mentioned, and you end up with a very small window for certain creators to monetize their content.
YouTube's mechanism for copyright claims is also horrendous.
My brother is a classical pianist and often uploads videos of his work, which almost always is public domain music because it was written 100-200+ years ago. Almost everything he posts gets instantly demonetized because a bot files a copyright claim on it, usually to another channel where someone else (usually with a Russian name) played the same piece.
You can challenge a copyright claim, but if they deem your challenge invalid, you get a strike. After three strikes, your entire channel gets deleted. Those stakes are way too high, especially when you don't even know if it's even a real human (much less someone actually familiar with copyright law) making those decisions.
Quote from: US 89 on January 11, 2023, 03:24:04 PM
And on the other hand, I know several religious people who swear like sailors on their own time or with friends. That includes the 70-year-old pastor at the Presbyterian church I grew up going to.
I'm not even sure what swearing has to do with Christianity anyway, other than that the Bible exhorts Christians to not use 'unwholesome' speech, which likely means subject matter more than it means word choice.
I think it's just that there's enough overlap between 'devout Christian' and 'doesn't use bad language', that we just assume the latter comes from the former.
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 10:33:00 AM
Meanwhile, the rest of us prefer to surround ourselves with people who use respectful language.
Isn't respect conveyed through the message and not the word choice, though?
I feel more respected when my current boss says my work is "fucking incredible" than I did when my last one used paragraphs upon paragraphs of business language with no swear words to say that I can't be trusted to know how often to use the cash machine by myself.
I wonder how many of the "profanity is unacceptable" types love themselves some football. Because boy do they use a lot of profanity.
An example: Kirby Smart's locker room speech during the College Football Playoffs Championship.
https://twitter.com/blakejmorgan/status/1612654820858494976
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 11, 2023, 04:15:51 PM
Isn't respect conveyed through the message and not the word choice, though?
It's conveyed by both. There are several aspects to language, and word choice is one of them. The words you choose to convey your message affects how your message is received.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 11, 2023, 04:15:51 PM
I feel more respected when my current boss says my work is "fucking incredible" than I did when my last one used paragraphs upon paragraphs of business language with no swear words to say that I can't be trusted to know how often to use the cash machine by myself.
It sounds to me like your boss's word choice affected how well respect was conveyed. I'm pretty sure that those two options are not the only ones available to a boss.
When my own boss says something like 'fucking incredible', I agree that it can convey respect–at least to me. But not necessarily to everyone within earshot: there may be others in the room who would hear that and think that she doesn't even consider them worth watching her language for.
Pretending or insisting that the use of offensive language should not negatively affect the people who hear it is a gross misunderstanding of how language functions in society.
After further reflection, it occurred to me...
Do you know what shows me even more respect than my boss saying 'You guys have been doing fucking amazing'? My boss apologizing afterward, and then striving to avoid swearing around us in the future–which my current actual boss has done and does.
And do you know what shows me more respect as a father than someone telling me I'm 'a fucking awesome dad'? That same person catching himself right before dropping the f-bomb in front of my kids, then saying something else instead.
Respect is shown by making a noticeable, concerted effort to be considerate to the other person–more so than by attempting to treat the other person as merely your equal.
To me the worst use of the F word - and one of the most common on the internet - is when someone thinks it makes their argument punctual, stronger, and/or more edgy. The word has been watered down to mean basically nothing, so it's silly to think that using it will improve your side of an argument.
Quote from: thspfc on January 11, 2023, 05:04:24 PM
To me the worst use of the F word - and one of the most common on the internet - is when someone thinks it makes their argument punctual, stronger, and/or more edgy.
Maybe that's why I instinctively say "fuck" a lot when I'm running late.
For what it's worth, I've found that 'freaking' conveys the exact same amount of force/emphasis as the real f-bomb, yet it's much more socially acceptable. Maybe your experience is different than mine, but they're functionally equivalent to me.
Just a small step down from that, and even more kid-friendly, is 'stinking'.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 11, 2023, 03:30:58 PM
The issues with YouTube are so numerous, that they really deserve a thread of their own.
I don't know how familiar everyone is with the inner workings of day-to-day YouTube, but as for me, I've been a pretty active user for almost ten years now. I watch videos, but I post videos as well. One of the worse things they have done lately was how they handled YouTube Kids and "Made for Kids" content. The changes that they made as a result of COPPA enforcement were terrible for certain communities (legitimate communities like animators, not talking about creeps going after children, they can get lost). If videos were deemed as "Made for Kids", you can't leave comments, you can't add them to playlists, you lose app background play on them, and monetization and recommendations are affected. In other words, YouTube becomes a glorified Google Drive page with little interaction.
I bring this up to say that YouTube have no idea how to handle kids content and profanity. They have YouTube Kids as it's own app, but then subject everyone to these restrictions on random videos. It's an incredibly dumb system. Not to mention, their automatic detection is terrible. It even will mark videos WITH profanity or gore in them as for kids. Throw that on top of what we've already mentioned, and you end up with a very small window for certain creators to monetize their content.
If Google really cared, they'd apply the restrictions to kids accounts, not to videos marked as or deemed to be "for children". Of course, this is really an act of malicious compliance specifically designed to punish the content creators in the hope that they'd lobby the government to repeal COPPA.
Quote from: vdeane on January 11, 2023, 09:19:03 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 11, 2023, 03:30:58 PM
The issues with YouTube are so numerous, that they really deserve a thread of their own.
I don't know how familiar everyone is with the inner workings of day-to-day YouTube, but as for me, I've been a pretty active user for almost ten years now. I watch videos, but I post videos as well. One of the worse things they have done lately was how they handled YouTube Kids and "Made for Kids" content. The changes that they made as a result of COPPA enforcement were terrible for certain communities (legitimate communities like animators, not talking about creeps going after children, they can get lost). If videos were deemed as "Made for Kids", you can't leave comments, you can't add them to playlists, you lose app background play on them, and monetization and recommendations are affected. In other words, YouTube becomes a glorified Google Drive page with little interaction.
I bring this up to say that YouTube have no idea how to handle kids content and profanity. They have YouTube Kids as it's own app, but then subject everyone to these restrictions on random videos. It's an incredibly dumb system. Not to mention, their automatic detection is terrible. It even will mark videos WITH profanity or gore in them as for kids. Throw that on top of what we've already mentioned, and you end up with a very small window for certain creators to monetize their content.
If Google really cared, they'd apply the restrictions to kids accounts, not to videos marked as or deemed to be "for children". Of course, this is really an act of malicious compliance specifically designed to punish the content creators in the hope that they'd lobby the government to repeal COPPA.
There shouldn't be these age restrictions at all for something like youtube to begin with. Google should drop the stone age censorship guidelines entirely. When I was a young teen I knew to set my birthday to 10 years older in my gmail account anyway.
Yeah, but the thing is, Google controls the service and you don't, so why should they care what you want? The only way to enact meaningful change in such a company is to Silver Slipper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Slipper) it.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 11, 2023, 09:28:44 AM
But I prefer to surround myself with people who don't need to make up reasons to feel superior to other people.
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 10:33:00 AM
Meanwhile, the rest of us prefer to surround ourselves with people who use respectful language.
The urge to punch back against my original comment speaks for itself.
And it's rather bold of you to speak for "the rest of us." That kind of indicates that you've only ever met one type of person. What one person considers "respectful" is subjective. If it hinges more upon what words someone chooses than a choice to support their peers and an avoidance of insults, violence, and abuse, that's a pretty poor idea of what is/isn't respectful, in my opinion. If someone is deemed irredeemable to you just because they said a word, you are the problem. Not the one who cussed.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 11, 2023, 09:28:44 AM
I actually don't feel as comfortable with other people if they don't swear. People who don't swear are people who put on airs, and judge against others for baseless reasons- or they simply fear becoming the victim of this judgment. But I prefer to surround myself with people who don't need to make up reasons to feel superior to other people.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 12, 2023, 10:16:31 AM
And it's rather bold of you to speak for "the rest of us." That kind of indicates that you've only ever met one type of person.
I would like to point out the juxtaposition here: in the earlier quote, you're speaking for others and indicating that you've only ever met one type of person (while also making a demonstrably false blanket statement, but that's besides the point).
To the original point, I think the concept of "needing" to use bad language to release anger or frustration is a false premise. There are other ways - including other ways to use language - that aren't offensive and achieve the same purpose.
Quote from: webny99 on January 12, 2023, 10:31:02 AM
To the original point, I think the concept of "needing" to use bad language to release anger or frustration is a false premise. There are other ways - including other ways to use language - that aren't offensive and achieve the same purpose.
I think the point many of us are making is that the "offense" taken is misguided.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 12, 2023, 10:54:09 AM
Quote from: webny99 on January 12, 2023, 10:31:02 AM
To the original point, I think the concept of "needing" to use bad language to release anger or frustration is a false premise. There are other ways - including other ways to use language - that aren't offensive and achieve the same purpose.
I think the point many of us are making is that the "offense" taken is misguided.
And I'm really not going to get into that, as I've already said. But whether or not it's misguided is ultimately an matter of personal belief and/or choice. I see behaviors and choices every day that I think are misguided -- often badly so, sometimes even veritably so -- but in most cases wouldn't dare call them out. That's just an inevitable aspect of 21st century society.
Quote from: Bruce on January 11, 2023, 04:21:08 PM
I wonder how many of the "profanity is unacceptable" types love themselves some football. Because boy do they use a lot of profanity.
An example: Kirby Smart's locker room speech during the College Football Playoffs Championship.
I love watching F1, but I don't like how often the driver's use profanity over the team radio. When they say it as often as they do, it loses its meaning and just comes off rude to their engineers and anyone who's also listening in live. The TV broadcast censors it, but we all usually end up hearing the raw version online later on.
I can still enjoy something even if there's a part of it that I don't.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 12, 2023, 10:16:31 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 11, 2023, 09:28:44 AM
But I prefer to surround myself with people who don't need to make up reasons to feel superior to other people.
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 10:33:00 AM
Meanwhile, the rest of us prefer to surround ourselves with people who use respectful language.
The urge to punch back against my original comment speaks for itself.
And it's rather bold of you to speak for "the rest of us." That kind of indicates that you've only ever met one type of person. What one person considers "respectful" is subjective. If it hinges more upon what words someone chooses than a choice to support their peers and an avoidance of insults, violence, and abuse, that's a pretty poor idea of what is/isn't respectful, in my opinion. If someone is deemed irredeemable to you just because they said a word, you are the problem. Not the one who cussed.
I agree. I feel the same way when society cancels someone for using a slur once a bunch of years ago, sometimes even as a quote from someone else in context.
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 03:53:09 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 11, 2023, 03:24:04 PM
And on the other hand, I know several religious people who swear like sailors on their own time or with friends. That includes the 70-year-old pastor at the Presbyterian church I grew up going to.
I'm not even sure what swearing has to do with Christianity anyway, other than that the Bible exhorts Christians to not use 'unwholesome' speech, which likely means subject matter more than it means word choice.
I think it's just that there's enough overlap between 'devout Christian' and 'doesn't use bad language', that we just assume the latter comes from the former.
At the very least, Christians should not be taking the name of the Lord in vain. It's more of specific use cases though, since obviously "God" isn't inherently a profane word to use.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 12, 2023, 10:16:31 AMWhat one person considers "respectful" is subjective.
Exactly.
If I go to dinner with someone, and they don't use profanity in front of the server, but they do, for example, do that thing where they place X number of dollar bills on the table and remove one every time the server makes a mistake, then I'm not walking away from this interaction thinking how "respectful" you are.
Quote from: webny99 on January 12, 2023, 10:31:02 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 11, 2023, 09:28:44 AM
I actually don't feel as comfortable with other people if they don't swear. People who don't swear are people who put on airs, and judge against others for baseless reasons- or they simply fear becoming the victim of this judgment. But I prefer to surround myself with people who don't need to make up reasons to feel superior to other people.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 12, 2023, 10:16:31 AM
And it's rather bold of you to speak for "the rest of us." That kind of indicates that you've only ever met one type of person.
I would like to point out the juxtaposition here: in the earlier quote, you're speaking for others and indicating that you've only ever met one type of person (while also making a demonstrably false blanket statement, but that's besides the point).
I never did speak for "the rest of us" as if everyone else was rallying against the other person's point, though. That was a weird thing to do, especially when others have been agreeing with me.
People who condemn another for the words they use could be looking for more important red flags.
Quote from: webny99 on January 12, 2023, 10:31:02 AM
To the original point, I think the concept of "needing" to use bad language to release anger or frustration is a false premise. There are other ways - including other ways to use language - that aren't offensive and achieve the same purpose.
Please provide examples of how else to express anger without offending people. The anger itself is the thing people don't want to see; the varying means of expressing it are only offensive because they indicate the unsightly anger. Using words is relatively innocuous, compared to abject insults, denigration, or physical demonstrations. Our society has an unfortunate grudge against any displays of emotion.
Actions are always more impactful than words. We ought to pay more attention to the actions of people, rather than words, when evaluating their character. If I can get away with blowing off steam through words before I start acting on my anger or frustration in other ways, that's what I'm going to do every time I possibly can, to avoid impacting other people significantly! If bad language is the worst behavior you've encountered from another person, let me tell you it can get way, way worse.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 12, 2023, 10:16:31 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 11, 2023, 09:28:44 AM
But I prefer to surround myself with people who don't need to make up reasons to feel superior to other people.
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 10:33:00 AM
Meanwhile, the rest of us prefer to surround ourselves with people who use respectful language.
The urge to punch back against my original comment speaks for itself.
Well, at least you get to feel superior to me. So I guess it worked out for you.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 12, 2023, 10:16:31 AM
What one person considers "respectful" is subjective.
Very much so. Nobody is denying that. In other words, what I haven't seen at all in this discussion is anybody denying the clear fact that a large segment of our society is offended by certain words. Why, if that is so obviously true, do so many people nevertheless believe adamantly that it's totally appropriate to use those words in mixed company? Why, if you are fully aware that a lot of people don't want to hear certain language, would you insist on using that language in a video you upload to YouTube for everyone and their grandma to watch, or whatever?
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 11:13:29 AM
If I go to dinner with someone, and they don't use profanity in front of the server, but they do, for example, do that thing where they place X number of dollar bills on the table and remove one every time the server makes a mistake, then I'm not walking away from this interaction thinking how "respectful" you are.
Totally. Is someone denying that? No, what I'm saying is that a message without profanity is more respectful than the same message with profanity.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 11, 2023, 09:28:44 AM
People who don't swear are people who put on airs, and judge against others for baseless reasons
So... my friend Phillip, who used to have a foul mouth, then realized that his foul language was offensive to other people, and therefore made a concerted effort to clean up his language, to the point that he never swears anymore... Because of that, he's judgmental against others?
Quote from: kphoger on January 11, 2023, 03:53:09 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 11, 2023, 03:24:04 PM
And on the other hand, I know several religious people who swear like sailors on their own time or with friends. That includes the 70-year-old pastor at the Presbyterian church I grew up going to.
I'm not even sure what swearing has to do with Christianity anyway, other than that the Bible exhorts Christians to not use 'unwholesome' speech, which likely means subject matter more than it means word choice.
I think it's just that there's enough overlap between 'devout Christian' and 'doesn't use bad language', that we just assume the latter comes from the former.
The same can be said about a lot of things. There seems to be a connection to being devout and being a perceived "goody two shoes." There is a particular hot button topic that is related to the repeal of a certain Supreme Court ruling. Those that are opposed to the topic are looked at by those pro that topic as Christians or religious nuts, when the subject has very little or in some cases, nothing to do with religion.
I personally am offended when someone categorizes someone for being overly religious because they don't want to hear profanity, watch movies with excessive violence, want men and women to dress decently and all around have people behave themselves in public. It has nothing to do with my religious beliefs and everything to do with I went to the store, I don't want to be bombarded with a drunk couple half-dressed yelling profanity at each other.
There are some situations where that behavior is tolerable. Take a night club for example, but at the grocery store is not one of them.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 12:25:24 PM
There is a particular hot button topic that is related to the repeal of a certain Supreme Court ruling. Those that are opposed to the topic are looked at by those pro that topic as Christians or religious nuts, when the subject has very little or in some cases, nothing to do with religion.
That's chiefly because the Republican Party has tied itself to conservative Christianity since the 1980s. Since that time, it has billed itself as the party that stands for conservative Christian values, therefore the line between politics and religion have gotten blurry in this country. Elsewhere in the world, people are surprised to find out, politics and religion don't line up in the same way they do here. I know some elderly Christians who have wondered out loud why the Democratic Party used to be the one conservative Christians were supposed to vote for, and now they're not; part of the reason is that the Democratic Party has shifted quite far leftward during the intervening time, but the unspoken other reason is that the Republican Party wasn't quite the bed-buddy with conservative Christianity back then that it is now.
And that's all I'm going to say about that, because that's probably the hottest topic possible to have been brought up. I'm not about to debate the issue itself on here, because that would be like setting off a grenade.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 12:25:24 PM
I personally am offended when someone categorizes someone for being overly religious because they don't want to hear profanity, watch movies with excessive violence, want men and women to dress decently and all around have people behave themselves in public. It has nothing to do with my religious beliefs and everything to do with I went to the store, I don't want to be bombarded with a drunk couple half-dressed yelling profanity at each other.
There are some situations where that behavior is tolerable. Take a night club for example, but at the grocery store is not one of them.
The coworker who sits next to me has fairly conservative opinions about how women should dress in public–more conservative than my own–yet she's one of the least religious people I know. I shouldn't be surprised if she's never even set foot in a church.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 12:25:24 PMI personally am offended when someone categorizes someone for being overly religious because they don't want to hear profanity, watch movies with excessive violence, want men and women to dress decently and all around have people behave themselves in public. It has nothing to do with my religious beliefs and everything to do with I went to the store, I don't want to be bombarded with a drunk couple half-dressed yelling profanity at each other.
There are some situations where that behavior is tolerable. Take a night club for example, but at the grocery store is not one of them.
If I describe someone as "Puritanical," I'm not implying any sort of religious devotion. It's not like there's any shortage of atheists who love the patriarchy, for example.
And declaring yourself arbiter of who gets to wear what to an establishment and how they get to conduct themselves is pretty, well, Puritanical.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 12:39:15 PM
That's chiefly because the Republican Party has tied itself to conservative Christianity since the 1980s. Since that time, it has billed itself as the party that stands for conservative Christian values, therefore the line between politics and religion have gotten blurry in this country. Elsewhere in the world, people are surprised to find out, politics and religion don't line up in the same way they do here. I know some elderly Christians who have wondered out loud why the Democratic Party used to be the one conservative Christians were supposed to vote for, and now they're not; part of the reason is that the Democratic Party has shifted quite far leftward during the intervening time, but the unspoken other reason is that the Republican Party wasn't quite the bed-buddy with conservative Christianity back then that it is now.
That is a good point to bring up. There was a recent study about how many Democratic voters that were African-American decent. The other thing they pointed out in this study is how very religious, as a whole, the African-American population is. Of course it came with the inevitable, if Republicans (conservatives) are viewed as being the religious party, them why are there so many devote Christian voters voting Democratic (liberal)?
I also want to pivot from this. I, like you, wanted to talk about it in code to intentionally not go down that rabbit hole! :-D
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 11, 2023, 09:51:30 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 11, 2023, 09:19:03 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 11, 2023, 03:30:58 PM
The issues with YouTube are so numerous, that they really deserve a thread of their own.
I don't know how familiar everyone is with the inner workings of day-to-day YouTube, but as for me, I've been a pretty active user for almost ten years now. I watch videos, but I post videos as well. One of the worse things they have done lately was how they handled YouTube Kids and "Made for Kids" content. The changes that they made as a result of COPPA enforcement were terrible for certain communities (legitimate communities like animators, not talking about creeps going after children, they can get lost). If videos were deemed as "Made for Kids", you can't leave comments, you can't add them to playlists, you lose app background play on them, and monetization and recommendations are affected. In other words, YouTube becomes a glorified Google Drive page with little interaction.
I bring this up to say that YouTube have no idea how to handle kids content and profanity. They have YouTube Kids as it's own app, but then subject everyone to these restrictions on random videos. It's an incredibly dumb system. Not to mention, their automatic detection is terrible. It even will mark videos WITH profanity or gore in them as for kids. Throw that on top of what we've already mentioned, and you end up with a very small window for certain creators to monetize their content.
If Google really cared, they'd apply the restrictions to kids accounts, not to videos marked as or deemed to be "for children". Of course, this is really an act of malicious compliance specifically designed to punish the content creators in the hope that they'd lobby the government to repeal COPPA.
There shouldn't be these age restrictions at all for something like youtube to begin with. Google should drop the stone age censorship guidelines entirely. When I was a young teen I knew to set my birthday to 10 years older in my gmail account anyway.
COPPA has nothing to do with censorship. It has to do with tracking. Google tracks every user of YouTube (and all its other services) to sell advertising, but this tracking is illegal to do to children. Rather than not track the profiles of the people they're not allowed to, they instead decided to disable it on the video side for everyone, specifically because they knew their content creators would get mad and lobby Congress for the repeal of the law (which failed).
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 12:48:58 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 12:25:24 PMI personally am offended when someone categorizes someone for being overly religious because they don't want to hear profanity, watch movies with excessive violence, want men and women to dress decently and all around have people behave themselves in public. It has nothing to do with my religious beliefs and everything to do with I went to the store, I don't want to be bombarded with a drunk couple half-dressed yelling profanity at each other.
There are some situations where that behavior is tolerable. Take a night club for example, but at the grocery store is not one of them.
If I describe someone as "Puritanical," I'm not implying any sort of religious devotion. It's not like there's any shortage of atheists who love the patriarchy, for example.
And declaring yourself arbiter of who gets to wear what to an establishment and how they get to conduct themselves is pretty, well, Puritanical.
I never said they couldn't, I said I am offended and don't want to see it. I can't stop anyone from doing anything.....
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 11:42:47 AMIs someone denying that?
In this thread? Not that I'm aware of. But this whole thread makes me think of a meme I once saw about people saying it's rude to put your elbows on the table while berating the server for making a mistake, and I don't want anyone to miss the forest for the trees.
And, of course, there's a certain irony in people insisting that you shouldn't use profanity because it might offend someone, while simultaneously thinking political correctness has gone too far and they should be able to use any slur they want to and if anyone is offended, well, fornicate their feelings.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 12:51:23 PMI am offended and don't want to see it
Well, then it's up to you to decide if you want to go to the grocery store, when there's an X% chance you'll see something you don't want to see.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 12:53:20 PM
well, fornicate their feelings.
Oh man, that's a gem! I'm going to have to start using that one...
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 12:57:51 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 12:53:20 PM
well, fornicate their feelings.
Oh man, that's a gem! I'm going to have to start using that one...
If you need another one, I once heard "commit a physical impossibility" as a euphemism for, you know, telling someone to GFY.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 12:48:58 PM
And declaring yourself arbiter of who gets to wear what to an establishment and how they get to conduct themselves is pretty, well, Puritanical.
I personally have nothing wrong with people going around completely naked if they want. But I don't consider people who disagree with me about that to be 'puritanical'.
And, for what it's worth, I fully support the right of a private business to set its own dress code.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 12:51:23 PMI am offended and don't want to see it
Well, then it's up to you to decide if you want to go to the grocery store, when there's an X% chance you'll see something you don't want to see.
No, I wish as a society we were as evolved as we were 40 years ago and everyone realized there are things you shouldn't say or do in mixed company.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 12, 2023, 11:04:46 AM
At the very least, Christians should not be taking the name of the Lord in vain. It's more of specific use cases though, since obviously "God" isn't inherently a profane word to use.
Jews, too, that section is in the Torah.
Mike
I'm far more concerned by the gratuitous use of the words Jade and Sault Sainte John Madden among today's youth than I am swear words.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 01:21:37 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 12:48:58 PM
And declaring yourself arbiter of who gets to wear what to an establishment and how they get to conduct themselves is pretty, well, Puritanical.
I personally have nothing wrong with people going around completely naked if they want. But I don't consider people who disagree with me about that to be 'puritanical'.
That's fair.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 01:21:37 PMAnd, for what it's worth, I fully support the right of a private business to set its own dress code.
Provided it doesn't have a disparate impact on a particular class (school dress codes tend to be much more restrictive for female students than male students, and dress codes at bars and clubs are frequently aimed at racial minorities), I do too. "No shirt, no shoes, no service" makes perfect sense from a hygiene standpoint.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 01:39:07 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 12:51:23 PMI am offended and don't want to see it
Well, then it's up to you to decide if you want to go to the grocery store, when there's an X% chance you'll see something you don't want to see.
No, I wish as a society we were as evolved as we were 40 years ago and everyone realized there are things you shouldn't say or do in mixed company.
I know a lot of women who would think it's hilarious that they need men to protect them from profanity.
And let's not lose sight of what it was completely legal to do to women, back in those halcyon days when men stood up when a woman entered the room.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 01:48:36 PM
I'm far more concerned by the gratuitous use of the words Jade and John Madden among today's youth than I am swear words.
Allow me to point out, as I don't believe anyone has yet, that Jade is a four-letter word.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
"No shirt, no shoes, no service" makes perfect sense from a hygiene standpoint.
Not to me, it doesn't. The bottoms of my shoes are not hygienic in the slightest. In fact, requiring people to remove their shoes before entering the store would make more sense to me from a hygiene standpoint. The real reason such policies were introduced is that it kept the hippies out. The real reason such policies persist is that it prevents lawsuit-likely injuries from occurring.
As for shirts... I can't think of any good reason for a store to require that its customers wear a shirt.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:50:52 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 01:39:07 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 12:51:23 PMI am offended and don't want to see it
Well, then it's up to you to decide if you want to go to the grocery store, when there's an X% chance you'll see something you don't want to see.
No, I wish as a society we were as evolved as we were 40 years ago and everyone realized there are things you shouldn't say or do in mixed company.
I know a lot of women who would think it's hilarious that they need men to protect them from profanity.
To that point, I have often pointed out that I grew up in an age when I would hear the older generations tell people being vulgar, "Clean it up, there are women and children present" and would think of the girls I went to school and say, "those girls are way more vulgar than the boys." I'll one up you, my wife would be one of the women that would laugh at you if you said that someone needs to clean up their language around her. She also doesn't like people to be profane in mixed company. Again, "offended" doesn't mean I am on the verge of dying from the shock, but just means I am disappointed how people don't seem to care anymore about watching their mouths.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:50:52 PM
And let's not lose sight of what it was completely legal to do to women, back in those halcyon days when men stood up when a woman entered the room.
So, there was something ghastly legal to do to women in 1983 that you can't do now? I also don't recall that being a time that people stood up when a woman entered the room; the older generation maybe.
I'll even push it to the early 90's. Gansta rap was new and it was a big deal that the albums were sold with as much foul language as there was and the Parental Advisory label on them. It was obvious then that people were thinking even as recent as then, "people will buy these foul CDs and play them in the car in public so everyone can hear them"? The very overt cursing just wasn't as socially acceptable then.
When I was working OTB there was a sweet old man that was one of our regulars named James. If I was the only one working, he'd come up to the counter and tell me dirty jokes. But he never would if my female coworkers were around. I told them about this, so sometimes when James came to the counter they would try to get him to tell them the dirty jokes, but he was scandalized by the thought. The female coworkers were just bummed out they didn't get to hear the dirty jokes straight from James and had to get a readback from me.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 02:08:50 PMNot to me, it doesn't. The bottoms of my shoes are not hygienic in the slightest.
I'm sure you have; in fact, I'm so sure you have, I hesitate to even ask the question, but...Have you ever seen the soles of someone who never wears shoes, ever?
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 02:08:50 PMIn fact, requiring people to remove their shoes before entering the store would make more sense to me from a hygiene standpoint.
Could be - my dentist has a new COVID policy where you have to remove your shoes and put on a sanitized pair of Crocs when you enter, but I'm not sure if that's related to the fact that the staff spend a significant amount of time at eye level with patients' shoes. The real reason such policies were introduced is that it kept the hippies out. The real reason such policies persist is that it prevents lawsuit-likely injuries from occurring.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 02:08:50 PMAs for shirts... I can't think of any good reason for a store to require that its customers wear a shirt.
Fair.
I'm surprised that this hasn't yet been noted in this thread -- this forum used to have a rule against the gratuitous use of profanity. The rule was quietly withdrawn at some point, without explanation that I can remember. Some discussion of the rule's absence came up later when another rule change was discussed.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 02:14:33 PMWhen I was working OTB there was a sweet old man that was one of our regulars named James. If I was the only one working, he'd come up to the counter and tell me dirty jokes. But he never would if my female coworkers were around. I told them about this, so sometimes when James came to the counter they would try to get him to tell them the dirty jokes, but he was scandalized by the thought. The female coworkers were just bummed out they didn't get to hear the dirty jokes straight from James and had to get a readback from me.
Kinda reminds me of when I was driving for Uber and more than one "bro" would enter the car, and one would have to brag to the other about his sexual conquests/how young his girlfriend was/what have you. My wife also drove for Uber and didn't really encounter conversations like that (she did have one experience where 3-4 bros were trying to work out how women put on/take off rompers, and whether there are snaps at the bottom like there are on onesies for babies, but the bro who ordered the ride apologized profusely and gave her five stars), but I sure as shit didn't want to hear their stories, either.
And one of my last passengers, I told her all that, and she responded "whenever I run into someone like that, I just respond 'well,
I know
I'm impressed!'" and that's good advice.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 12, 2023, 02:19:35 PM
I'm surprised that this hasn't yet been noted in this thread -- this forum used to have a rule against the gratuitous use of profanity. The rule was quietly withdrawn at some point, without explanation that I can remember. Some discussion of the rule's absence came up later when another rule change was discussed.
As has been mentioned before when this was brought up, that's because the original forum ruleset was copied wholesale from another forum. That rule was never enforced here (it was on the books while Jake was head admin, in case you needed proof of that) so it was deleted to make
de facto and
de jure one and the same in this particular case.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 02:10:05 PMAgain, "offended" doesn't mean I am on the verge of dying from the shock, but just means I am disappointed how people don't seem to care anymore about watching their mouths.
I think that just comes with the territory when you have a population that is much freer than it was decades ago. I hear a lot of people reminisce about the days when people dressed up to go to the grocery store, for example, and I don't know how you get back to that without all of the coercion that was in place.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 02:10:05 PMSo, there was something ghastly legal to do to women in 1983 that you can't do now?
Quite a few things, yes.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 02:29:20 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 02:10:05 PMAgain, "offended" doesn't mean I am on the verge of dying from the shock, but just means I am disappointed how people don't seem to care anymore about watching their mouths.
I think that just comes with the territory when you have a population that is much freer than it was decades ago. I hear a lot of people reminisce about the days when people dressed up to go to the grocery store, for example, and I don't know how you get back to that without all of the coercion that was in place.
Or get in a suit or dress to go to the airport. Now people fly in their pajamas.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 02:29:20 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 02:10:05 PMSo, there was something ghastly legal to do to women in 1983 that you can't do now?
Quite a few things, yes.
Like? I don't want to hear about antiquated laws that stayed on the books because some scrivener never got around to striking that law from the books.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 12, 2023, 11:35:32 AM
Quote from: webny99 on January 12, 2023, 10:31:02 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 11, 2023, 09:28:44 AM
I actually don't feel as comfortable with other people if they don't swear. People who don't swear are people who put on airs, and judge against others for baseless reasons- or they simply fear becoming the victim of this judgment. But I prefer to surround myself with people who don't need to make up reasons to feel superior to other people.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 12, 2023, 10:16:31 AM
And it's rather bold of you to speak for "the rest of us." That kind of indicates that you've only ever met one type of person.
I would like to point out the juxtaposition here: in the earlier quote, you're speaking for others and indicating that you've only ever met one type of person (while also making a demonstrably false blanket statement, but that's besides the point).
I never did speak for "the rest of us" as if everyone else was rallying against the other person's point, though. That was a weird thing to do, especially when others have been agreeing with me.
When I said you're speaking for others, what I meant was you're making a lot of assumptions about others:
Not swearing = putting on airs -
rarely to never trueNot swearing = judging against others -
rarely to never trueNot swearing = fearing becoming the victim of judgment -
not always trueNot swearing = making up reasons to feel superior to others -
rarely to never trueQuote from: paulthemapguy on January 12, 2023, 11:35:32 AM
People who condemn another for the words they use could be looking for more important red flags.
I guess I'm not really sure what this means. I didn't mention anything about condemning anyone for using foul language, only that I don't agree with using it myself and would prefer if others didn't in a public setting -- but at some point pretty much everyone does something I don't like or don't agree with. That's just life, and that doesn't mean it's up to me to condemn or pass judgment.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 12, 2023, 11:35:32 AM
Please provide examples of how else to express anger without offending people. The anger itself is the thing people don't want to see; the varying means of expressing it are only offensive because they indicate the unsightly anger. Using words is relatively innocuous, compared to abject insults, denigration, or physical demonstrations. Our society has an unfortunate grudge against any displays of emotion.
Actions are always more impactful than words. We ought to pay more attention to the actions of people, rather than words, when evaluating their character. If I can get away with blowing off steam through words before I start acting on my anger or frustration in other ways, that's what I'm going to do every time I possibly can, to avoid impacting other people significantly! If bad language is the worst behavior you've encountered from another person, let me tell you it can get way, way worse.
I certainly agree that actions are more impactful than words. And absolutely it's better to express anger with words and yell and shout rather than doing any physical harm - but all I'm saying is you don't have to use profanity to do so. There are plenty of interesting language alternatives that you could use that are a lot more original and fun to say and less overused - and are guaranteed not to offend anyone. And of course I'm talking mostly in public here, I don't think anyone cares what you say if it's not for all to hear.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 02:33:19 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 02:29:20 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 02:10:05 PMSo, there was something ghastly legal to do to women in 1983 that you can't do now?
Quite a few things, yes.
Like? I don't want to hear about antiquated laws that stayed on the books because some scrivener never got around to striking that law from the books.
In a good amount of states, no-fault divorce wasn't a thing in 1983, meaning that a woman would have to prove abuse to leave an abusive marriage.
Rape laws often explicitly only applied to women the perpetrator was not married to, meaning a man could legally rape his own wife. This was corrected starting in the 1970s, and was only done in all 50 states by 1993 (I'm not sure of the exact date; Wikipedia's "by 1993" wording is indicative that they have a source stating this dated 1993 but it could have been achieved earlier).
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 02:17:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 02:08:50 PMAs for shirts... I can't think of any good reason for a store to require that its customers wear a shirt.
Fair.
It could be a hygienic issue in a small, crowded store, but otherwise agreed.
Ironically the stores that have regulations requiring shirts and shoes are often the ones where I'd feel most comfortable
not wearing them (or at least being around other people not wearing them - I can't do bare feet and me shirtless is not a pretty sight, although I wouldn't mind if it was more socially acceptable).
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 01:21:37 PMAnd, for what it's worth, I fully support the right of a private business to set its own dress code.
Provided it doesn't have a disparate impact on a particular class (school dress codes tend to be much more restrictive for female students than male students, and dress codes at bars and clubs are frequently aimed at racial minorities), I do too. "No shirt, no shoes, no service" makes perfect sense from a hygiene standpoint.
I personally think that a woman should be allowed to go topless anywhere a man is allowed to go topless. But I am less than 100% convinced a Catholic school should legally have to allow girls to play shirts-vs-skins basketball just because it allows the boys to.
There are values I think an ideal society should have or not have, but that doesn't mean I think the ideal solution is to change all the rules to match what I think. Culture is a bit of a chicken-and-egg thing: rules can change beliefs, and yet beliefs should inform rules.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 12, 2023, 02:46:12 PM
In a good amount of states, no-fault divorce wasn't a thing in 1983, meaning that a woman would have to prove abuse to leave an abusive marriage.
Was that specifically for women only? I don't know the history.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 02:24:43 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 12, 2023, 02:19:35 PM
I'm surprised that this hasn't yet been noted in this thread -- this forum used to have a rule against the gratuitous use of profanity. The rule was quietly withdrawn at some point, without explanation that I can remember. Some discussion of the rule's absence came up later when another rule change was discussed.
As has been mentioned before when this was brought up, that's because the original forum ruleset was copied wholesale from another forum. That rule was never enforced here (it was on the books while Jake was head admin, in case you needed proof of that) so it was deleted to make de facto and de jure one and the same in this particular case.
You implied this in your reply, but I'll just state it explicitly: it wasn't without explanation. You can start reading here:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29783.msg2640068#msg2640068
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 12, 2023, 02:46:12 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 02:33:19 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 02:29:20 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 02:10:05 PMSo, there was something ghastly legal to do to women in 1983 that you can't do now?
Quite a few things, yes.
Like? I don't want to hear about antiquated laws that stayed on the books because some scrivener never got around to striking that law from the books.
In a good amount of states, no-fault divorce wasn't a thing in 1983, meaning that a woman would have to prove abuse to leave an abusive marriage.
I'll give it to you, but I guess I was thinking more of a "It is 10,000% Legal to Beat Your Wife in Public and Onlookers Should Applaud" law. The law you are referencing feels more like a holdover law from a more Catholic mindset, or any other religion in which the religion forbade divorce and was designed to keep people from frivolously divorcing their spouse. Now, like a lot of things, an unfortunate loophole was exploited there and that I do not condone.
The intent of the law was to keep divorce rates down but made it so spouse abuse was harder to punish.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 02:17:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 02:08:50 PM
Not to me, it doesn't. The bottoms of my shoes are not hygienic in the slightest.
I'm sure you have; in fact, I'm so sure you have, I hesitate to even ask the question, but...Have you ever seen the soles of someone who never wears shoes, ever?
I live in Kansas. Have you ever seen the bottoms of a pig-farmers work boots?
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 02:33:19 PMNow people fly in their pajamas.
Yep, and the coast-to-coast plane ticket that cost $300 in 1960 dollars now costs...$300 in 2023 dollars.
Also, while some of your fellow passengers may be in their pajamas, none will chain-smoke unfiltered Luckies in-flight.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:06:52 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 02:17:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 02:08:50 PM
Not to me, it doesn't. The bottoms of my shoes are not hygienic in the slightest.
I'm sure you have; in fact, I'm so sure you have, I hesitate to even ask the question, but...Have you ever seen the soles of someone who never wears shoes, ever?
I live in Kansas. Have you ever seen the bottoms of a pig-farmers work boots?
Nope.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:05:39 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 12, 2023, 02:46:12 PM
In a good amount of states, no-fault divorce wasn't a thing in 1983, meaning that a woman would have to prove abuse to leave an abusive marriage.
Was that specifically for women only? I don't know the history.
Nope, but I would estimate 99% of cases where someone wanted to get out of a marriage but couldn't, it was a woman.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:11:35 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:06:52 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 02:17:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 02:08:50 PM
Not to me, it doesn't. The bottoms of my shoes are not hygienic in the slightest.
I'm sure you have; in fact, I'm so sure you have, I hesitate to even ask the question, but...Have you ever seen the soles of someone who never wears shoes, ever?
I live in Kansas. Have you ever seen the bottoms of a pig-farmers work boots?
Nope.
That's fine. At least there isn't any particular class of people that's less likely than others to own a pair of shoes.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:05:39 PMBut I am less than 100% convinced a Catholic school should legally have to allow girls to play shirts-vs-skins basketball just because it allows the boys to.
I don't either, I was talking about dress codes that state "no spaghetti straps/no bare midriffs/no shorts that end above the knee/etc." that are enforced against girls, but not boys.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:05:39 PMWas that specifically for women only? I don't know the history.
Well, women could only marry men, and based on what I know about the old-boy network back then, I'm sure it was much easier for men to get a divorce than women.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:18:38 PMAt least there isn't any particular class of people that's less likely than others to own a pair of shoes.
Interesting, I hadn't even considered the potential that policies requiring shoes would be classist. The only person I've known who never wore shoes was an affluent straight white Christian man who thought "not wearing shoes anywhere" was the same as "having a personality," although this was in the rural South.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:19:06 PM
based on what I know about the old-boy network back then, I'm sure it was much easier for men to get a divorce than women.
Aha, yes. I must assume that he wasn't trying to say domestic violence against husbands doesn't exist.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:19:06 PM
I was talking about dress codes that state "no spaghetti straps/no bare midriffs/no shorts that end above the knee/etc." that are enforced against girls, but not boys.
How many boys try to go around wearing spaghetti straps? :biggrin:
But yes.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:21:24 PM
Interesting, I hadn't even considered the potential that policies requiring shoes would be classist. The only person I've known who never wore shoes was an affluent straight white Christian man who thought "not wearing shoes anywhere" was the same as "having a personality," although this was in the rural South.
Granted, this was back in the 1960s, but one of my father's childhood friends didn't own a pair of shoes, and he only owned two changes of clothes.
But I was thinking more specifically of people living in poverty today, such as a large immigrant family not being able to afford shoes for all their children. Or a homeless man whose shoes have worn out to the point of being thrown in the trash.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 12:53:20 PM
And, of course, there's a certain irony in people insisting that you shouldn't use profanity because it might offend someone, while simultaneously thinking political correctness has gone too far and they should be able to use any slur they want to and if anyone is offended, well, fornicate their feelings.
Once again, you have implied because someone has a problem with public profanity they also have a problem with the "wussification" of the world when it comes to political correctness. Do they also rip off their sleeves, wear a trucker's hat and have a beer in their hand while saying "wussification" with a southern drawl?
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 03:26:51 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 12:53:20 PM
And, of course, there's a certain irony in people insisting that you shouldn't use profanity because it might offend someone, while simultaneously thinking political correctness has gone too far and they should be able to use any slur they want to and if anyone is offended, well, fornicate their feelings.
Once again, you have implied because someone has a problem with public profanity they also have a problem with the "wussification" of the world when it comes to political correctness. Do they also rip off their sleeves, wear a trucker's hat and have a beer in their hand while saying "wussification" with a southern drawl?
The Venn diagram definitely overlaps at a minimum. Also, for the record, I own and wear a lot of trucker's hats and enjoy holding beers.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:26:42 PMHow many boys try to go around wearing spaghetti straps? :biggrin:
Come on dude, you know tank tops for men exist.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:26:42 PMGranted, this was back in the 1960s, but one of my father's childhood friends didn't own a pair of shoes, and he only owned two changes of clothes.
Yeah - this is me talking out of my ass, but I'd say that was much more common in the 1960s than today.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:26:42 PMBut I was thinking more specifically of people living in poverty today, such as a large immigrant family not being able to afford shoes for all their children. Or a homeless man whose shoes have worn out to the point of being thrown in the trash.
That is food for thought, absolutely.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:30:56 PM
Yeah - this is me talking out of my ass, but I'd say that was much more common in the 1960s than today.
Probably so. On the other hand, you know that I do mission work in small-town Mexico, where I see a lot more children going barefoot. And I'm sure the bottoms of their feet are substantially less hygienic than those of your rural Southern Christian guy. (I also once had a coworker in a warehouse who attempted to go barefoot at work because he had made some sort of spiritual vow to go without shoes.)
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:30:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:26:42 PMHow many boys try to go around wearing spaghetti straps? :biggrin:
Come on dude, you know tank tops for men exist.
Specifically, spaghetti strap tops, and shirts bearing their midriff. I am going to do the overall acknowledgement that today, most things are not as gender specific as they used to be and both sexes are encouraged to venture outside their confines, but at the exact same time, this is high school we are talking about, and still if a boy comes to school in a spaghetti strap top or showing their midriff, we know and they know they will be bullied to no end. This is why "the closet" still exists even in our more free-thinking society. It's because at the end of the day, the same knuckle sandwich you would receive for wearing girl's clothes to school in the old days will still be there waiting for a boy if he did it today. By that logic alone, most guys won't dress like that at school.
I tried to defuse that with the smiley face. Guess it failed.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:35:02 PMOn the other hand, you know that I do mission work in small-town Mexico, where I see a lot more children going barefoot.
That's what I meant when I said that I'm sure you've seen people going barefoot. Wasn't some "lol rural Kansas" thing.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:35:02 PMAnd I'm sure the bottoms of their feet are substantially less hygienic than those of your rural Southern Christian guy.
They were black as night, and I also can't say for certain how often he showered.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
dress codes at bars and clubs are frequently aimed at racial minorities
Not being a nuisance, I legitimately want to know what this means. Maybe because I never really got into the bar scene. I have been to plenty, just I am too much of a square for them.
When I take mission teams to villages in the Mexican desert, I specifically tell them not to pack spaghetti straps or short shorts, and nobody objects to that. They all understand perfectly well that it's out of respect for the cultural norms in which we'll be ministering–not because any of us thinks it's inherently morally wrong to avoid wearing those clothing items. (And, by the way, it seems to be more culturally appropriate there for women to show their lower legs than men. I don't think I've ever seen a rural Mexican wearing shorts, but I've seen plenty of rural Mexican women wearing dresses.) In town (the bigger town, population approx. 40k), I don't enforce that sort of thing as much because it's a tourist town and because the cultural values aren't the same as they are in the villages anyway.
It would do one well to show this sort of respect when talking within earshot of others. If there's a chance that others would be offended by the words you choose to use, then it would be good to choose different words.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:43:15 PM
That's what I meant when I said that I'm sure you've seen people going barefoot. Wasn't some "lol rural Kansas" thing.
Oh, duh! I was scratching my head, trying to figure out what you meant by that.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:43:15 PM
They were black as night, and I also can't say for certain how often he showered.
I don't doubt it. But I'd bet that those little Mexican kids' feet pick up a lot worse things on their soles than your guy's soles.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 03:46:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
dress codes at bars and clubs are frequently aimed at racial minorities
Not being a nuisance, I legitimately want to know what this means. Maybe because I never really got into the bar scene. I have been to plenty, just I am too much of a square for them.
Essentially some businesses have a dress code that basically prohibits "urban fashion" -- plain white tees, hats, jerseys, sagging pants, etc.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 03:46:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
dress codes at bars and clubs are frequently aimed at racial minorities
Not being a nuisance, I legitimately want to know what this means. Maybe because I never really got into the bar scene. I have been to plenty, just I am too much of a square for them.
This article has some good info:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1536504214567859
Yes, they're not explicitly racist; yes, they're (occasionally) enforced against white people (I was turned away from a lower-end nightclub in England because I was wearing gym shoes; a bouncer at The Guards in DC told me "next time, wear shoes" when I went there wearing Birkenstocks; Jack Rose Dining Saloon in Adams Morgan wouldn't let me in because I had gone to the Caps game that night and was wearing a Caps sweater).
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:47:33 PM
When I take mission teams to villages in the Mexican desert, I specifically tell them not to pack spaghetti straps or short shorts, and nobody objects to that. They all understand perfectly well that it's out of respect for the cultural norms in which we'll be ministering–not because any of us thinks it's inherently morally wrong to avoid wearing those clothing items. (And, by the way, it seems to be more culturally appropriate there for women to show their lower legs than men. I don't think I've ever seen a rural Mexican wearing shorts, but I've seen plenty of rural Mexican women wearing dresses.) In town (the bigger town, population approx. 40k), I don't enforce that sort of thing as much because it's a tourist town and because the cultural values aren't the same as they are in the villages anyway.
Yeah, I try to limit the amount of time I spend wearing shorts when I'm in any other country; I think David Sedaris hit the nail on the head when he said that American tourists walk around Europe dressed as if they're there to mow the lawn.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 12, 2023, 03:55:53 PM
sagging pants
Researching the legal history of the term 'anal cleft' is a fun diversion...
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 04:04:42 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 12, 2023, 03:55:53 PM
sagging pants
Researching the legal history of the term 'anal cleft' is a fun diversion...
Is that the same as "rectal crease?"
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:30:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 03:26:42 PMHow many boys try to go around wearing spaghetti straps? :biggrin:
Come on dude, you know tank tops for men exist.
They do, but some of them have such tiny backs and/or massive arm holes that they might as well
not exist.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 12, 2023, 03:55:53 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 03:46:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
dress codes at bars and clubs are frequently aimed at racial minorities
Not being a nuisance, I legitimately want to know what this means. Maybe because I never really got into the bar scene. I have been to plenty, just I am too much of a square for them.
Essentially some businesses have a dress code that basically prohibits "urban fashion" -- plain white tees, hats, jerseys, sagging pants, etc.
Again, not being a nuisance, but those items are not limited to minorities. There are a lot of places I see more anglo people wearing those items than minorities. Jerseys... any NFL game.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 03:46:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
dress codes at bars and clubs are frequently aimed at racial minorities
Not being a nuisance, I legitimately want to know what this means. Maybe because I never really got into the bar scene. I have been to plenty, just I am too much of a square for them.
This article has some good info:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1536504214567859
Yes, they're not explicitly racist; yes, they're (occasionally) enforced against white people (I was turned away from a lower-end nightclub in England because I was wearing gym shoes; a bouncer at The Guards in DC told me "next time, wear shoes" when I went there wearing Birkenstocks; Jack Rose Dining Saloon in Adams Morgan wouldn't let me in because I had gone to the Caps game that night and was wearing a Caps sweater).
I was told I couln't enter a club because I was wearing a baseball hat. I am anglo decent.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 03:46:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
dress codes at bars and clubs are frequently aimed at racial minorities
Not being a nuisance, I legitimately want to know what this means. Maybe because I never really got into the bar scene. I have been to plenty, just I am too much of a square for them.
This article has some good info:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1536504214567859
Yes, they're not explicitly racist; yes, they're (occasionally) enforced against white people (I was turned away from a lower-end nightclub in England because I was wearing gym shoes; a bouncer at The Guards in DC told me "next time, wear shoes" when I went there wearing Birkenstocks; Jack Rose Dining Saloon in Adams Morgan wouldn't let me in because I had gone to the Caps game that night and was wearing a Caps sweater).
I was told I couln't enter a club because I was wearing a baseball hat. I am anglo decent.
Tell me that you didn't read the article linked without telling me you didn't read it. Or, at least understand the inference.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 03:46:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
dress codes at bars and clubs are frequently aimed at racial minorities
Not being a nuisance, I legitimately want to know what this means. Maybe because I never really got into the bar scene. I have been to plenty, just I am too much of a square for them.
This article has some good info:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1536504214567859
Yes, they're not explicitly racist; yes, they're (occasionally) enforced against white people (I was turned away from a lower-end nightclub in England because I was wearing gym shoes; a bouncer at The Guards in DC told me "next time, wear shoes" when I went there wearing Birkenstocks; Jack Rose Dining Saloon in Adams Morgan wouldn't let me in because I had gone to the Caps game that night and was wearing a Caps sweater).
I was told I couln't enter a club because I was wearing a baseball hat. I am anglo decent.
RTFA
I'm a little surprised that businesses that enforce a dress code make enough money to continue as a going concern. If I were turned away due to how I was dressed, my reaction wouldn't be to go change and come back, it would be to spend my money somewhere else.
Is it OK to sag while wearing rebel flag underwear? :hmmm:
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 05:04:23 PM
Is it OK to sag while wearing rebel flag underwear? :hmmm:
Aren't you commando?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 12, 2023, 04:27:12 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 03:46:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
dress codes at bars and clubs are frequently aimed at racial minorities
Not being a nuisance, I legitimately want to know what this means. Maybe because I never really got into the bar scene. I have been to plenty, just I am too much of a square for them.
This article has some good info:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1536504214567859
Yes, they're not explicitly racist; yes, they're (occasionally) enforced against white people (I was turned away from a lower-end nightclub in England because I was wearing gym shoes; a bouncer at The Guards in DC told me "next time, wear shoes" when I went there wearing Birkenstocks; Jack Rose Dining Saloon in Adams Morgan wouldn't let me in because I had gone to the Caps game that night and was wearing a Caps sweater).
I was told I couln't enter a club because I was wearing a baseball hat. I am anglo decent.
Tell me that you didn't read the article linked without telling me you didn't read it. Or, at least understand the inference.
I read it. I don't agree with it. I will keep it that way because I do not want to go there.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 05:02:10 PM
I'm a little surprised that businesses that enforce a dress code make enough money to continue as a going concern. If I were turned away due to how I was dressed, my reaction wouldn't be to go change and come back, it would be to spend my money somewhere else.
I never went back to Jack Rose after that, and laughed my ass off when they started trying to sell themselves as a sports bar, but I guess no one else was bothered by it.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 05:02:10 PM
I'm a little surprised that businesses that enforce a dress code make enough money to continue as a going concern. If I were turned away due to how I was dressed, my reaction wouldn't be to go change and come back, it would be to spend my money somewhere else.
I 100% agree with this. If a business is making good money I don't understand their obsession with these trivial morales. Like when airlines have kicked people off and made people change their clothes just because a dress had "too revealing" straps, and recently I heard a story that airlines are complaining about how "casual" people dress in general, like wearing sweatshirts and sweatpants on 15 hr flights, and were flirting with the idea of implementing a low level, mandatory dress code. People should take their businesses elsewhere. I have always been of the view that it's not the government's right, nor the businesses absolute right to make absolute rules, that should be a general public consensus type of thing. If enough customers are against a rule that doesn't directly affect the operation of the business, they should be required to change it. Customers rights over government policy/owners rights.
And speaking of airlines, based on how horribly certain airlines like United and Southwest have been treating passengers, I made sure my flight last year was with delta or American.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 04:38:17 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 03:46:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
dress codes at bars and clubs are frequently aimed at racial minorities
Not being a nuisance, I legitimately want to know what this means. Maybe because I never really got into the bar scene. I have been to plenty, just I am too much of a square for them.
This article has some good info:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1536504214567859
Yes, they're not explicitly racist; yes, they're (occasionally) enforced against white people (I was turned away from a lower-end nightclub in England because I was wearing gym shoes; a bouncer at The Guards in DC told me "next time, wear shoes" when I went there wearing Birkenstocks; Jack Rose Dining Saloon in Adams Morgan wouldn't let me in because I had gone to the Caps game that night and was wearing a Caps sweater).
I was told I couldn't enter a club because I was wearing a baseball hat. I am anglo decent.
RTFA
Red Tail Flight Academy?
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 05:19:46 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 04:38:17 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 03:56:33 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 12, 2023, 03:46:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM
dress codes at bars and clubs are frequently aimed at racial minorities
Not being a nuisance, I legitimately want to know what this means. Maybe because I never really got into the bar scene. I have been to plenty, just I am too much of a square for them.
This article has some good info:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1536504214567859
Yes, they're not explicitly racist; yes, they're (occasionally) enforced against white people (I was turned away from a lower-end nightclub in England because I was wearing gym shoes; a bouncer at The Guards in DC told me "next time, wear shoes" when I went there wearing Birkenstocks; Jack Rose Dining Saloon in Adams Morgan wouldn't let me in because I had gone to the Caps game that night and was wearing a Caps sweater).
I was told I couldn't enter a club because I was wearing a baseball hat. I am anglo decent.
RTFA
Red Tail Flight Academy?
R is for "Read," T is for "the," and A is for "article."
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 12, 2023, 05:16:00 PMLike when airlines have kicked people off and made people change their clothes just because a dress had "too revealing" straps
Because, if you give someone even a shred of authority, they will abuse the shit out of it.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 12, 2023, 05:16:00 PMand recently I heard a story that airlines are complaining about how "casual" people dress in general, like wearing sweatshirts and sweatpants on 15 hr flights, and were flirting with the idea of implementing a low level, mandatory dress code.
There already is a not-so-secret dress code for nonrevs, and that is strictly enforced in premium cabins. But yeah, I'm not putting on a damn tuxedo for a Chicago-London redeye, nor should I be expected to.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 02:08:50 PMQuote from: abefroman329 on January 12, 2023, 01:49:03 PM"No shirt, no shoes, no service" makes perfect sense from a hygiene standpoint.
As for shirts... I can't think of any good reason for a store to require that its customers wear a shirt.
I actually find this one kind of funny. I realize that when it comes to things like this, you can't list everything under the sun, but if you take this in the literal sense/at face value, wouldn't that mean that you could walk into a business wearing
only underwear, shoes, and a shirt? LOL Hell, that could also mean not even wearing underwear and
only wearing shoes and a shirt. Although that second one would constitute indecent exposure and you would be charged. Now, from a logical/common sense point of view, even with not listing everything under the sun, common sense would tell you that you should also wear underwear and pants/jeans since especially underwear
do make sense hygienically.
Interestingly enough, I came across a YouTube of channel a while ago with a few videos of two teenage brothers, who I'm pretty sure aren't of legal age yet, at least not when the videos were made, going into businesses (stores, fast-food restaurants, etc.) in their underwear. They wore everything else; they just didn't have pants on.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 12, 2023, 05:16:00 PM
I don't understand their obsession with these trivial morales.
You mean
this one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_S%C3%A1nchez_Morales)?
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 12, 2023, 05:16:00 PM
I have aaslways been of the view that it's not the government's right, nor the businesses absolute right to make absolute rules, that should be a general public consensus type of thing. If enough customers are against a rule that doesn't directly affect the operation of the business, they should be required to change it. Customers rights over government policy/owners rights.
So, for example...
At
this convenience store in Huntsville, Texas (https://goo.gl/maps/iAYCEg24efp6wQoE8), exactly how many customers would have to be against the rule for the business owner to be required to accept money pulled out of people's underwear? And how would this survey be conducted? And how would you prove they were actually customers? Do they count twice if they've shopped there twice? If enough people want the rule back, would the business owner be required to reinstitute it?
Quote from: Amaury on January 12, 2023, 05:51:49 PM
I actually find this one kind of funny. I realize that when it comes to things like this, you can't list everything under the sun, but if you take this in the literal sense/at face value, wouldn't that mean that you could walk into a business wearing only underwear, shoes, and a shirt? LOL Hell, that could also mean not even wearing underwear and only wearing shoes and a shirt. Although that second one would constitute indecent exposure and you would be charged. Now, from a logical/common sense point of view, even with not listing everything under the sun, common sense would tell you that you should also wear underwear and pants/jeans since especially underwear do make sense hygienically.
That only makes logical sense if the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" thing were about hygiene to begin with. But, as I said, they aren't. There is no health code requiring shirts or shoes, no matter what the sign claims. They started out as a way of keeping the hippies out, and they persist as a way of avoiding injury claims.
Quote from: Amaury on January 12, 2023, 05:51:49 PM
Interestingly enough, I came across a YouTube of channel a while ago with a few videos of two teenage brothers, who I'm pretty sure aren't of legal age yet, at least not when the videos were made, going into businesses (stores, fast-food restaurants, etc.) in their underwear. They wore everything else; they just didn't have pants on.
I once saw a man walking down the sidewalk, otherwise dressed normally, with no pants on–just tighty whiteys. It was in Amsterdam, I think. It made me do a double-take, but it's not like any harm was caused.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 06:27:28 PMthis convenience store in Huntsville, Texas[/url (https://goo.gl/maps/iAYCEg24efp6wQoE8)
Speaking of unintentionally classist things...
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 05:02:10 PM
I'm a little surprised that businesses that enforce a dress code make enough money to continue as a going concern. If I were turned away due to how I was dressed, my reaction wouldn't be to go change and come back, it would be to spend my money somewhere else.
Or any of these clubs (which admittedly I don't know if this is real or just a TV trope) that evaluates each prospective patron for physical attractiveness/appearance beyond dress code considerations before allowing or refusing them entry just in order to procure a certain look for their clientele.
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 06:27:28 PMThat only makes logical sense if the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" thing were about hygiene to begin with. But, as I said, they aren't. There is no health code requiring shirts or shoes, no matter what the sign claims. They started out as a way of keeping the hippies out, and they persist as a way of avoiding injury claims.
Yeah, I was only talking about it from the general hygienic perspective the public is told. I wasn't saying that I agree with it–or disagree with it, for that matter–I was just bringing up that point I find funny based on the wording itself of the signs. Until I saw some posts in this thread, whenever this subject has come up in my everyday life, I never actually thought it had to do with hygiene, I just thought it was a general business rule.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 12, 2023, 07:13:12 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 05:02:10 PM
I'm a little surprised that businesses that enforce a dress code make enough money to continue as a going concern. If I were turned away due to how I was dressed, my reaction wouldn't be to go change and come back, it would be to spend my money somewhere else.
Or any of these clubs (which admittedly I don't know if this is real or just a TV trope) that evaluates each prospective patron for physical attractiveness/appearance beyond dress code considerations before allowing or refusing them entry just in order to procure a certain look for their clientele.
Because the people they do allow in will pay dearly for the privilege of being allowed in.
I can count the number of times I've been to an honest-to-god club on one hand, and the closest I ever saw to something like what you're describing was when I was in line to get into a club in Manhattan and the bouncer announced "no more single men." The woman behind me said to me "you can say you're with us" before I even knew what was going on or how to address it.
Oh LTFU, will you?
I have been told that one reason the level of dress on airplanes has gone down is because of the TSA restrictions. It's easier to wear pants with elastic or drawstring waist than it is traditional pants with a belt because you have to remove the belt to go through the scanners.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 12, 2023, 09:41:16 PM
I have been told that one reason the level of dress on airplanes has gone down is because of the TSA restrictions. It's easier to wear pants with elastic or drawstring waist than it is traditional pants with a belt because you have to remove the belt to go through the scanners.
Oh, I bet! In the years immediately after 9/11, I used to wear sandals just so I wouldn't haven't to untie my shoes. This last time I flew, though, I wore a metal-buckled belt and a jean jacket with metal snaps. Whatever...
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 10:38:30 PM
Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on January 10, 2023, 09:21:51 PM
I can think of many otherwise good films that were ruined due to overuse of the f-word.
Unless it's absolutely necessary to make a point, swear words just make the speaker sound uneducated and tactless.
HEAR Hear!
I'd go even further: Unless you are deliberately defaming or cursing someone or something, and, in your opinion such defamation or cursing is justified, and other words don't adequately express the level of your disdain or contempt, swear words make the speaker sound uneducated. I think of using that less delicate words as one would use nuclear weapons, they often defeat the other side, but you won't want to occupy the land of those who you have defeated! How satisfying it is, instead, to encourage your foe to make haste to join the underworld and to be thankful that they have begun their journey!
That said, California has a fairly strongly worded GtFooMW law (no gentler way to say it that is adequate) and a fairly weakly worded KRETP law.
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
Never. Even if it might be deemed "appropriate" in some contexts and not in others, when you boil it right down it's never actually necessary. As a good friend of mine once said (I believe repeating something he was told as a kid), swearing just means you're lacking vocabulary. I couldn't agree more, and he's certainly proved it by coming up with some pretty hilarious expressions to use instead (think Captain Haddock).
"Vulgarity is no substitute for wit." –the Dowager Countess of Grantham,
Downton Abbey
Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 09:46:29 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 12, 2023, 09:41:16 PM
I have been told that one reason the level of dress on airplanes has gone down is because of the TSA restrictions. It's easier to wear pants with elastic or drawstring waist than it is traditional pants with a belt because you have to remove the belt to go through the scanners.
Oh, I bet! In the years immediately after 9/11, I used to wear sandals just so I wouldn't haven't to untie my shoes. This last time I flew, though, I wore a metal-buckled belt and a jean jacket with metal snaps. Whatever...
Certainly understandable, and as airplanes become more cramped, and airports focus on places to spend money rather than relaxing free time, dressing casually and comfortably is entirely appropriate in return. Even more so for longer distances or red-eye flights.
On the other hand, airline crews rarely set any two aircraft at the same temperature, so I avoid wearing shorts. Since there's a great chance feet can get stepped on in close quarters, I always opt for sneakers with socks at a minimum when flying.
Also, one should dress for the position and respect they desire. Wearing pajamas and dressing down someone in their uniform is a little low class, except in the most egregious of airline screw-ups.
If the airlines want people to be less slobbish on their stupid planes, then they should stop treating their customers like cattle who have no choice but to fly. I've been on planes where my femur barely fits between the back of my seat and the back of the seat in front of me, so why the hell should I "look nice" for those fuckers who try and steal every centimeter from the cabin?
Goddamn, I wish this stupid country had high speed rail.
Quote from: michravera on January 13, 2023, 01:34:02 AM
Unless you are deliberately defaming or cursing someone or something, and, in your opinion such defamation or cursing is justified, and other words don't adequately express the level of your disdain or contempt, swear words make the speaker sound uneducated. I think of using that less delicate words as one would use nuclear weapons, they often defeat the other side, but you won't want to occupy the land of those who you have defeated! How satisfying it is, instead, to encourage your foe to make haste to join the underworld and to be thankful that they have begun their journey!
Is this a fair summary: The majority of curse/swear/vulgar words are gratuitous: it is only in rare cases that the desired emotional connotation justifies their use, and using them otherwise only serves to paint the speaker as coarse and ineloquent.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 12, 2023, 09:41:16 PM
I have been told that one reason the level of dress on airplanes has gone down is because of the TSA restrictions. It's easier to wear pants with elastic or drawstring waist than it is traditional pants with a belt because you have to remove the belt to go through the scanners.
Although I agree with you, mainly because I do it myself, it started before 911. I think 911 just escalated it.
Get PreCheck and you won't have to remove your belt. Or shoes. Or light jacket. Problem solved!
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 13, 2023, 10:00:29 AM
Get PreCheck and you won't have to remove your belt. Or shoes. Or light jacket. Problem solved!
The problem with that, at least for me, is that it's like paying the Mafia protection money.
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 13, 2023, 10:00:29 AM
Get PreCheck and you won't have to remove your belt. Or shoes. Or light jacket. Problem solved!
But without fail, my usual belt has just enough metal in it that it almost always goes off in the scanner, so I have to take it off anyway. Half the time, the TSA agent will see me taking it off and yell at me not to do that. The temptation to say "I told you so" after it inevitably does set the alarm off is so great.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 13, 2023, 10:14:03 AM
The problem with that, at least for me, is that it's like paying the Mafia protection money.
If you fly enough, PreCheck is one of the most worthwhile things you can spend money on. $78 for 5 years works out to $15.60 per year. Especially if you fly more than once a year, that's almost negligible compared to the cost of an airline ticket.
I only wear nylon belts in general. Better for hiking and also don't ping in metal detectors.
Quote from: kphoger on January 13, 2023, 09:36:51 AM
Quote from: michravera on January 13, 2023, 01:34:02 AM
Unless you are deliberately defaming or cursing someone or something, and, in your opinion such defamation or cursing is justified, and other words don't adequately express the level of your disdain or contempt, swear words make the speaker sound uneducated. I think of using that less delicate words as one would use nuclear weapons, they often defeat the other side, but you won't want to occupy the land of those who you have defeated! How satisfying it is, instead, to encourage your foe to make haste to join the underworld and to be thankful that they have begun their journey!
Is this a fair summary: The majority of curse/swear/vulgar words are gratuitous: it is only in rare cases that the desired emotional connotation justifies their use, and using them otherwise only serves to paint the speaker as coarse and ineloquent.
Pretty much. There are plenty of times to be coarse or less than eloquent, but, in most of those cases, it doesn't much matter what you say or how you say it. You could say anything or nothing at all or just make loud shrieks or grunts and the effect would be the same.
Quote from: US 89 on January 13, 2023, 01:36:17 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 13, 2023, 10:00:29 AM
Get PreCheck and you won't have to remove your belt. Or shoes. Or light jacket. Problem solved!
But without fail, my usual belt has just enough metal in it that it almost always goes off in the scanner, so I have to take it off anyway. Half the time, the TSA agent will see me taking it off and yell at me not to do that. The temptation to say "I told you so" after it inevitably does set the alarm off is so great.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 13, 2023, 10:14:03 AM
The problem with that, at least for me, is that it's like paying the Mafia protection money.
If you fly enough, PreCheck is one of the most worthwhile things you can spend money on. $78 for 5 years works out to $15.60 per year. Especially if you fly more than once a year, that's almost negligible compared to the cost of an airline ticket.
I hear where you're coming from, but there is no way I'm paying additional money to the TSA to avoid the hassle caused by the TSA.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 13, 2023, 05:51:00 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 13, 2023, 01:36:17 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 13, 2023, 10:00:29 AM
Get PreCheck and you won't have to remove your belt. Or shoes. Or light jacket. Problem solved!
But without fail, my usual belt has just enough metal in it that it almost always goes off in the scanner, so I have to take it off anyway. Half the time, the TSA agent will see me taking it off and yell at me not to do that. The temptation to say "I told you so" after it inevitably does set the alarm off is so great.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 13, 2023, 10:14:03 AM
The problem with that, at least for me, is that it's like paying the Mafia protection money.
If you fly enough, PreCheck is one of the most worthwhile things you can spend money on. $78 for 5 years works out to $15.60 per year. Especially if you fly more than once a year, that's almost negligible compared to the cost of an airline ticket.
I hear where you're coming from, but there is no way I'm paying additional money to the TSA to avoid the hassle caused by the TSA.
So pay $100 to CBP for Global Entry and they'll throw in PreCheck for free.
It IS ridiculous that one needs to pay money and get background checks in order to experience things like airport security and crossing the border in a way that even remotely resembles the way things were for everyone pre-9/11.
Quote from: vdeane on January 13, 2023, 09:31:47 PM
It IS ridiculous that one needs to pay money and get background checks in order to experience things like airport security and crossing the border in a way that even remotely resembles the way things were for everyone pre-9/11.
Meanwhile, in the UK, the government has published a timeline for ratcheting back airport screening of passengers.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 13, 2023, 05:51:00 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 13, 2023, 01:36:17 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 13, 2023, 10:00:29 AM
Get PreCheck and you won't have to remove your belt. Or shoes. Or light jacket. Problem solved!
But without fail, my usual belt has just enough metal in it that it almost always goes off in the scanner, so I have to take it off anyway. Half the time, the TSA agent will see me taking it off and yell at me not to do that. The temptation to say "I told you so" after it inevitably does set the alarm off is so great.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 13, 2023, 10:14:03 AM
The problem with that, at least for me, is that it's like paying the Mafia protection money.
If you fly enough, PreCheck is one of the most worthwhile things you can spend money on. $78 for 5 years works out to $15.60 per year. Especially if you fly more than once a year, that's almost negligible compared to the cost of an airline ticket.
I hear where you're coming from, but there is no way I'm paying additional money to the TSA to avoid the hassle caused by the TSA.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but it just seems backwards! It reminds me of the old saying "One doesn't pay a prostitute to stay; one pays them to leave!" If anything, it would seem as if you are paying for the TSA to be lax in their duties and that those who make them work hard go through for free. It reminds me of Yogi Bear charging a picnic basket inspection fee. As Rice and Weber wrote in another context "Why'd you let the things you did get so out of hand?!"
I look at the direction of the world as a complex plane: There is a vanishingly small narrow band of acceptable outcomes and a nearly infinite region of unacceptable ones. But then again, that is our universe for you! A very slight imbalance of positive and negative matter led to everything we know.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 13, 2023, 09:57:25 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 12, 2023, 09:41:16 PM
I have been told that one reason the level of dress on airplanes has gone down is because of the TSA restrictions. It's easier to wear pants with elastic or drawstring waist than it is traditional pants with a belt because you have to remove the belt to go through the scanners.
Although I agree with you, mainly because I do it myself, it started before 911. I think 911 just escalated it.
When I was in college, I dated a classmate from that town for a couple of years. Occasionally, we'd go with her mom and dad to Lexington shopping at Fayette Mall. I was surprised that her dad usually put on a coat and tie just to go to the mall. He didn't normally dress up day-to-day. As someone who hates wearing a tie, and always took one off as soon as I could when I had to wear one for work, I didn't understand why one would willingly wear one when they didn't have to.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 08:30:57 AM
The world has gotten to the point that the only curse word that seems to be verboten is the C-word.
That's not always the case. Certain English speakers use that as a term to describe a person with no particular redeeming value (like politicians), or someone who is rude, irritating or generally unlikeable. It's interchangeable with Tw*t.
(https://thechive.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/2613195-251.jpg?attachment_cache_bust=2613310&quality=85&strip=info&w=400)
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 08:30:57 AM
The world has gotten to the point that the only curse word that seems to be verboten is the C-word. The rest of them "OH well", Whether it is streaming TV, to a lesser extent broadcast TV, and even this forum, the envelope pushes and pushes. F-bombs are dropped virtually indiscriminately.
Cock? Cum? Chram? Crapper? Carpenter? Christ? Communist?
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 08:30:57 AM
I cannot sit in my living room and watch a TV drama for fear my 8-year-old will hear something I don't want to hear myself and I certainly don't want him to hear. Yellowstone and anything Taylor Sheridan produces averages 14 F-bombs an hour. Other producers are less, but they are still there.
You know the TV has an on-off switch, don't you? If you don't like swearing, don't watch TV shows with swearing. It's really that simple. Don't try to limit what I can watch because of bad parenting.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 08:30:57 AM
Just a personal beef. Guys I really wish you would try to have a mite of decorum on here. Even James Hetfield of the band Metallica says we overuse the F-word and it is losing its (shock) value.
James Hetfield sold out over 30 years ago. Who cares what he thinks.
I don't say "shit" or "fuck" for shock value. Never have. It's just a word.
If you are worried about your kid hearing swear words in TV or movies, if they are over 8 they have probably read plenty of swear words on the internet already.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2023, 10:36:59 AM
If you are worried about your kid hearing swear words in TV or movies, if they are over 8 they have probably read plenty of swear words on the internet already.
Not in my experience. I don't remember how old I was (definitely under 12 though, as that's when I got my personal laptop and it was before that), and I was playing a Flash game called Platform Racing. The chat, which was accessible whenever not in a game, had automated swear filter. At the time, I knew the words "shit" and "ass", and I could figure out what the filtered forms were supposed to be. However, there were some that were clearly filtered that I didn't know what they were originally, and I'm pretty sure "fuck" was one of them.
Quote from: 1 on April 13, 2023, 10:40:17 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2023, 10:36:59 AM
If you are worried about your kid hearing swear words in TV or movies, if they are over 8 they have probably read plenty of swear words on the internet already.
Not in my experience. I don't remember how old I was (definitely under 12 though, as that's when I got my personal laptop and it was before that), and I was playing a Flash game called Platform Racing. The chat, which was accessible whenever not in a game, had automated swear filter. At the time, I knew the words "shit" and "ass", and I could figure out what they were. However, there were some that were clearly filtered that I didn't know what they were originally, and I'm pretty sure "fuck" was one of them.
Not internet chat games, just browsing the web and going on internet forums and watching youtube taught me what like all of the swear words meant by 6th grade.
Just going to school did that with other students using them.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2023, 10:36:59 AM
If you are worried about your kid hearing swear words in TV or movies, if they are over 8 they have probably read plenty of swear words on the internet already.
It's a matter of them learning that it's OK to use certain words or talk about certain topics in mixed company.
My wife and I just had to sit down and have a talk with our 8-year-old son, literally last night. My wife runs a home daycare, and one of the girls his age picked up some inappropriate phrases from him. She then took those phrases home with her and used them there. When we asked him about it, he told us he'd gotten them from cartoon TV shows. In the past, I've heard him pull out a swear word, and I could tell by the tone of voice and the context that it's something he had picked up from TV.
Many TV shows rely on crude humor, and children don't yet have the social skills to know what things they hear on TV are appropriate for actual real-world conversations and what things aren't. In the specific example of my son, he didn't understand that it was inappropriate to talk to a girl about certain parts of his body...
Quote from: kphoger on April 13, 2023, 10:51:23 AM
.... In the specific example of my son, he didn't understand that it was inappropriate to talk to a girl about certain parts of his body...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj2Lpw9Yeqw
Quote from: roadman65 on January 10, 2023, 10:08:58 AM
If I do have to drop the F Bomb here, I will use *** between letters or once I remember using (censored).
I do know some that won't hold back and use including one user calling the Hypotenuse Diesel mechanic the Richard word for male genitalia during the day when ole Saab was trolling.
Richard Bullis?
Quote from: bandit957 on January 10, 2023, 10:38:20 AM
It's very, very, very rare that I've ever heard the F-word on over-the-air TV.
I remember Bono saying "fuck up the mainstream" on some music awards show on network TV in the 1990s. Which is hilarious, because U2 is as mainstream as it gets.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 10, 2023, 10:38:20 AM
It's rare even on cable.
I have heard several wrestlers say "fuck" on AEW Dynamite, a professional wrestling show. MJF called Tony Khan a "fucking mark" and Jon Moxley has dropped more than one F-bomb on TV. Dynamite is on TBS, a basic cable channel. Dynamite is a live TV show, and sometimes the wrestlers go off script and the producers don't catch it on time and it makes it to TV.
I used to work at a convenience store, and I cursed in front of customers all the time. You can usually tell who would and wouldn't be offended by it, and I only dropped F-bombs in front of regular customers who I knew and I heard use similar language in front of me. One day a regular was checking out and he was talking about something and he said "shit". I replied "Don't you fucking be cursing in my fucking store!" He cracked up laughing. You have to know who you can and can't say it around.
Quote from: roadman65 on January 10, 2023, 12:24:51 PM
I heard a guy swear out loud in a restaurant. It was after 10pm and a family with kids came in, in which the guy was swearing against the chagrin of the parents. The manager asked the guy politely to tone it down and he went off saying kids should be in bed after 9 pm and it was the parents fault for taking them out past their bedtime.
Then three drunk guys were at another bar swearing out loud where they got me offended. Usually swearing don't bother me but these guys were doing it too much and too loudly. Not to mention either swearing at Beaumont, TX or a person they new with the Beaumont surname several times got my attention. The manager ended up throwing the guys out, but refused to leave resulting in the cops being called. However they left before the cops came, but banned from the establishment. It's not what you say, but how say it is what got me offended.
Quit letting every little inconsequential thing offend you. The problem with the world today is that everybody is too easily offended. Some of them believe they have the right to not be offended, and this right is sacrosanct and must be upheld over everything else including the freedom of speech. If you quit letting petty things that don't matter offend you, I promise you that you'll be happier and your stress level will be lower.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 10, 2023, 01:19:14 PM
Yes, I think there is way too much cursing in general now. I am not saying I am perfect and don't swear. I don't like putting swear words in writing so that's why I keep this forum clean. I do try sometimes to tone it down, and frankly I wish I would stop entirely.
Meh, they're just words. They only only offend you if you let them. There's a time and a place to use vulgarities, and there are times and places that you should never utter them. You have to know your audience and be able to read the room. Don't let unimportant things bother you so much.
Quote from: bugo on April 14, 2023, 04:55:26 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 10, 2023, 01:19:14 PM
Yes, I think there is way too much cursing in general now. I am not saying I am perfect and don't swear. I don't like putting swear words in writing so that's why I keep this forum clean. I do try sometimes to tone it down, and frankly I wish I would stop entirely.
Meh, they're just words. They only only offend you if you let them. There's a time and a place to use vulgarities, and there are times and places that you should never utter them. You have to know your audience and be able to read the room. Don't let unimportant things bother you so much.
I don't see how anyone could
not be offended when someone says "fuck you" directly to their face.
Quote from: 1 on April 14, 2023, 05:26:18 AM
Quote from: bugo on April 14, 2023, 04:55:26 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 10, 2023, 01:19:14 PM
Yes, I think there is way too much cursing in general now. I am not saying I am perfect and don't swear. I don't like putting swear words in writing so that's why I keep this forum clean. I do try sometimes to tone it down, and frankly I wish I would stop entirely.
Meh, they're just words. They only only offend you if you let them. There's a time and a place to use vulgarities, and there are times and places that you should never utter them. You have to know your audience and be able to read the room. Don't let unimportant things bother you so much.
I don't see how anyone could not be offended when someone says "fuck you" directly to their face.
I never say it, but I find the phrase so nonsensical that I find it funny when someone has to resort to using it because they've run out of logical things to say.
Quote from: Rothman on April 14, 2023, 06:54:46 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 14, 2023, 05:26:18 AM
Quote from: bugo on April 14, 2023, 04:55:26 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 10, 2023, 01:19:14 PM
Yes, I think there is way too much cursing in general now. I am not saying I am perfect and don't swear. I don't like putting swear words in writing so that's why I keep this forum clean. I do try sometimes to tone it down, and frankly I wish I would stop entirely.
Meh, they're just words. They only only offend you if you let them. There's a time and a place to use vulgarities, and there are times and places that you should never utter them. You have to know your audience and be able to read the room. Don't let unimportant things bother you so much.
I don't see how anyone could not be offended when someone says "fuck you" directly to their face.
I never say it, but I find the phrase so nonsensical that I find it funny when someone has to resort to using it because they've run out of logical things to say.
What I don't understand is how some people think that by using that phrase, they've somehow scored some significant point or achieved some sort of victory over you in an argument. So you used a profanity. So what?
As far as "they're just words".... (those who are offended by profanity, or who are in a location where playing a video loaded with profanity would be inappropriate, should not play the video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1_UuXN4SfE
Quote from: 1 on April 14, 2023, 05:26:18 AM
Quote from: bugo on April 14, 2023, 04:55:26 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 10, 2023, 01:19:14 PM
Yes, I think there is way too much cursing in general now. I am not saying I am perfect and don't swear. I don't like putting swear words in writing so that's why I keep this forum clean. I do try sometimes to tone it down, and frankly I wish I would stop entirely.
Meh, they're just words. They only only offend you if you let them. There's a time and a place to use vulgarities, and there are times and places that you should never utter them. You have to know your audience and be able to read the room. Don't let unimportant things bother you so much.
I don't see how anyone could not be offended when someone says "fuck you" directly to their face.
Exactly. The "they're just words" crowd doesn't seem to grasp how language works. Different words have different connotations; this is a baked-in feature of language. Some words have offensive connotations. If you choose to use those words and expect people to not be offended, then you're bad at choosing your words.
Quote from: 1 on April 14, 2023, 05:26:18 AMI don't see how anyone could not be offended when someone says "fuck you" directly to their face.
They can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think their point might have been that for some, yes, it could be offensive, but the mature thing to do would be to just ignore it and move on, especially if it's a stranger. It's not worth it to get it into an argument over it.
Context also matters. I have plenty of friends that I say "fuck you" to and, likewsie, they'll say it back, but we're just joking around with each other. It's not being done in the mean way, to put it one way.
Quote from: kphoger on April 14, 2023, 02:32:49 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 14, 2023, 05:26:18 AM
Quote from: bugo on April 14, 2023, 04:55:26 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 10, 2023, 01:19:14 PM
Yes, I think there is way too much cursing in general now. I am not saying I am perfect and don't swear. I don't like putting swear words in writing so that's why I keep this forum clean. I do try sometimes to tone it down, and frankly I wish I would stop entirely.
Meh, they're just words. They only only offend you if you let them. There's a time and a place to use vulgarities, and there are times and places that you should never utter them. You have to know your audience and be able to read the room. Don't let unimportant things bother you so much.
I don't see how anyone could not be offended when someone says "fuck you" directly to their face.
Exactly. The "they're just words" crowd doesn't seem to grasp how language works. Different words have different connotations; this is a baked-in feature of language. Some words have offensive connotations. If you choose to use those words and expect people to not be offended, then you're bad at choosing your words.
I don't think the TJWs expect people not to be offended, they just don't care if they are or not.
Fuck anyone who swears without a reason.
Daniel Moraseski is a xenophobic tushy jester.
Quote from: 1 on April 14, 2023, 05:26:18 AM
I don't see how anyone could not be offended when someone says "fuck you" directly to their face.
It depends on context. I've had good friends say much worst than that to me, but we both knew they were joking. If somebody said it to me seriously and I didn't respect this person, I would just laugh and make fun of them. In most cases, I wouldn't get mad over that. I might get mad at other things, but "fuck you" wouldn't piss me off by itself.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 14, 2023, 03:57:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 14, 2023, 02:32:49 PM
Exactly. The "they're just words" crowd doesn't seem to grasp how language works. Different words have different connotations; this is a baked-in feature of language. Some words have offensive connotations. If you choose to use those words and expect people to not be offended, then you're bad at choosing your words.
I don't think the TJWs expect people not to be offended, they just don't care if they are or not.
What is a TJW? I've never heard that term.
Quote from: bugo on April 15, 2023, 03:12:57 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 14, 2023, 03:57:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 14, 2023, 02:32:49 PM
Exactly. The "they're just words" crowd doesn't seem to grasp how language works. Different words have different connotations; this is a baked-in feature of language. Some words have offensive connotations. If you choose to use those words and expect people to not be offended, then you're bad at choosing your words.
I don't think the TJWs expect people not to be offended, they just don't care if they are or not.
What is a TJW? I've never heard that term.
Likely an abbreviation of "they're just words" mentioned above.
Quote from: 1 on April 15, 2023, 03:25:53 PM
Quote from: bugo on April 15, 2023, 03:12:57 PM
I don't think the TJWs expect people not to be offended, they just don't care if they are or not.
What is a TJW? I've never heard that term.
Likely an abbreviation of "they're just words" mentioned above.
[/quote]
That's a weird phrase to use as a noun.
Quote from: bugo on April 14, 2023, 04:55:26 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 10, 2023, 01:19:14 PM
Yes, I think there is way too much cursing in general now. I am not saying I am perfect and don't swear. I don't like putting swear words in writing so that's why I keep this forum clean. I do try sometimes to tone it down, and frankly I wish I would stop entirely.
Meh, they're just words. They only only offend you if you let them. There's a time and a place to use vulgarities, and there are times and places that you should never utter them. You have to know your audience and be able to read the room. Don't let unimportant things bother you so much.
I agree, there is a time and a place. People used to abide by them. That is my problem, people don't do it anymore. Thats why I have an issue. I will never see them as just words. They are vulgar for a reason. I don't care what company I am in, I will never be okay with hearing a loud F-bomb. It for the most part rowels me up.
It's no different than if someone says, "did you just spill something on
my floor?" when you are in their kitchen. Yes, the sentence is "trivial", but using "my" when "the" would more than suffice means they are getting territorial, and I will know this guy wants to fight, and I can't help that the deliberate choice of words angers me. Thats how curse words work. People say them to initiate certain emotions from others and use them because they want to be vulgar about something. I frankly don't want to hear that or be a part of their little game of awaking emotions out of the minions.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on April 20, 2023, 11:24:33 AM
People say them to initiate certain emotions from others and use them because they want to be vulgar about something. I frankly don't want to hear that or be a part of their little game of awaking emotions out of the minions.
As someone who uses a fair amount of profanity, this is just straight up wrong. I've never sat there and been like "I'll say fuck in this sentence because I want to be vulgar", I say it because I want to show the intensity of my own opinion. If someone else is riled up by the fact I feel strongly about something, that kind of says more about them than it does me because people are allowed to feel strongly about things in American society.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 20, 2023, 05:21:44 PM
As someone who uses a fair amount of profanity, this is just straight up wrong. I've never sat there and been like "I'll say fuck in this sentence because I want to be vulgar", I say it because I want to show the intensity of my own opinion. If someone else is riled up by the fact I feel strongly about something, that kind of says more about them than it does me because people are allowed to feel strongly about things in American society.
As I said, that just means you're bad at choosing your words. When you make the decision to use words that are offensive to a lot of people, then don't be surprised when some people are offended by what you say. If you expect people to not be offended, then choose less-offensive words to express the intensity of your opinion. The English language has a wealth of vocabulary; take advantage of it.
Quote from: kphoger on April 14, 2023, 02:32:49 PM
Exactly. The "they're just words" crowd doesn't seem to grasp how language works. Different words have different connotations; this is a baked-in feature of language. Some words have offensive connotations. If you choose to use those words and expect people to not be offended, then you're bad at choosing your words.
Poor diction not only can cause offense, but people thinking less of your intelligence.
Are you shitting me, Goddammit, we don't need of that fucking language here.
Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2023, 07:17:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 20, 2023, 05:21:44 PM
As someone who uses a fair amount of profanity, this is just straight up wrong. I've never sat there and been like "I'll say fuck in this sentence because I want to be vulgar", I say it because I want to show the intensity of my own opinion. If someone else is riled up by the fact I feel strongly about something, that kind of says more about them than it does me because people are allowed to feel strongly about things in American society.
As I said, that just means you're bad at choosing your words. When you make the decision to use words that are offensive to a lot of people, then don't be surprised when some people are offended by what you say. If you expect people to not be offended, then choose less-offensive words to express the intensity of your opinion. The English language has a wealth of vocabulary; take advantage of it.
Quote from: kphoger on April 14, 2023, 02:32:49 PM
Exactly. The "they're just words" crowd doesn't seem to grasp how language works. Different words have different connotations; this is a baked-in feature of language. Some words have offensive connotations. If you choose to use those words and expect people to not be offended, then you're bad at choosing your words.
Usually, if I get that strong of a reaction to a swear word, I take it as a signal that is someone I probably shouldn't keep too close to me anyway. If someone is going to be offended by my using the word
fuck, then they're probably going to be offended by any number of a long list of things about me that are more important aspects of me than my word choice (like my political opinions, my lack of religious belief, my sexual orientation, my choice of hobbies ...), so better to just nip it in the bud and let their offense over word choice flag them for self-exclusion. Likewise, if someone is willing to judge my intelligence level based on my word choice, that's someone who is only going to cause me problems if they think I'm smart.
Of course, I moderate myself when I'm in a semi-formal setting like doing a business transaction or interacting with a government official or something like that. But I also don't feel like I'm being myself in that kind of situation, either; I'm running
formal_interaction.exe over top of my regular programming.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 21, 2023, 02:01:20 AM
Of course, I moderate myself when I'm in a semi-formal setting like doing a business transaction or interacting with a government official or something like that. But I also don't feel like I'm being myself in that kind of situation, either; I'm running formal_interaction.exe over top of my regular programming.
Not swearing at all means I don't have to worry about moderating myself and feeling different when there are expectations of cleaner language. Always fun to be in a meeting where someone lets one go and then apologizes.
Then again, the most interesting situation I found myself in was eating at a decent restaurant in DC with a foul-mouthed sales rep who was also loud. The waitstaff "pushed" us to get us out of there, which hadn't happened on any of my other visits to it (it was right across from my office). The guy was the loudest person in the room, so it was assumed his language was the reason why we got shuffled out there post haste.
I am not referring to hanging out with my friends or with a co-worker and both of us are using foul language (although frankly I wish we both wouldn't use foul language). I am not talking about intimate settings, I am talking about very very very public settings, not a bar or any other establishment very drunk adults are congregating at. I am talking about a festival geared toward children and there is some belligerent jerk using the F word repeatedly. I am talking about going to a baseball game and listening to people yell profanity. I am talking about going to Target to pick up a few things and there are two guys that are F-bombing loud during their conversation to each other in the store. Now, I get offended, but I think you have this vision of me making a scene or something. No, I don't think anyone knows (besides my wife) that I get offended by random useless cursing because I don't talk about it. I usually move on, think to myself "I really wish people would clean up their langue in public" and that's the end of it. I don't fan myself as I pass out on the floor holding my hat or go full Karen on anyone cursing. I don't get around my foul-mouthed friends and get on my soapbox about their cursing. I just in general would rather people just clean up their language.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 21, 2023, 02:01:20 AM
Usually, if I get that strong of a reaction to a swear word, I take it as a signal that is someone I probably shouldn't keep too close to me anyway. If someone is going to be offended by my using the word fuck, then they're probably going to be offended by any number of a long list of things about me that are more important aspects of me than my word choice (like my political opinions, my lack of religious belief, my sexual orientation, my choice of hobbies ...), so better to just nip it in the bud and let their offense over word choice flag them for self-exclusion. Likewise, if someone is willing to judge my intelligence level based on my word choice, that's someone who is only going to cause me problems if they think I'm smart.
It's not just that foul language causes offense. It's that your word choice conveys a message you might not intend. For example, if I have my family over at your house and you don't watch your language, then that would tell me you don't think we're worthy of your respect as guests. Just as cleaning the trash off your couch and coffee table shows hospitality to your guests, so does cleaning the trash out of your vocabulary. And that has nothing to do with your politics, religion, sexuality, or hobbies: believe me, I know very open-minded, left-leaning individuals who would say the same.
I work with cable guys, whose general vulgarity of thought and speech rivals only that of sailors. There are two residential field tech supervisors who work out of this office, and I can imagine each of them griping behind closed doors about the same thing in two different ways:
1 – Oh, that shit pisses me off to no end! These motherfuckers–oh, they know how the fuck to do their job. They're just too lazy to actually do their fucking job, so they pull this kind of shit in order to get away with it. They know exactly how to rig the fucking system to do as little as goddamned possible without getting their ass kicked to the fucking curb–and fuck the customer!
2 – Oh, don't even get me started on that! These guys–it's not that they don't know how to do their job, it's that they're just a bunch of lazy bums. So, in order to get away with being lazy, they pull this kind of... shenanigans. They've learned how to game the system to get away with doing as absolute, utter, bare minimum possible without getting kicked to the curb–and who cares about the customer!I'd have no doubt both of them felt strongly about the issue. Even if that intensity and passion weren't conveyed by their tone of voice, body language, and other nonverbal cues–which it certainly would–both of them had similarly terse phrases and provocative word choice. But supervisor #2 managed to do so without resorting to profanity, while supervisor #1 appeared to lack the ability to do so
without it.
But then, whenever there's an all-tech meeting (which happens at least once a week), supervisor #1 is able to get his point across without swearing–for the most part, anyway. When he's facing the field techs, he can communicate without resorting to profanity. And those cable guys who were just cussing up a storm in the parking lot before the meeting manage to communicate their thoughts during the meeting without resorting to profanity as well. They do so because a meeting calls for more respect than casual chatting during a smoke break, so the supervisors show the techs respect by cleaning up their language and the techs do likewise.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 21, 2023, 02:01:20 AM
Of course, I moderate myself when I'm in a semi-formal setting like doing a business transaction or interacting with a government official or something like that. But I also don't feel like I'm being myself in that kind of situation, either; I'm running formal_interaction.exe over top of my regular programming.
As much as I know you dislike the government where you live, then, it would be a poor choice to convey to someone by your language that you respect them even
less than that.
You're not being less yourself in those situations: you're just code-switching from your "informal self" to your "formal self". We all do that. It's part of the human experience. We speak to our children differently than to our spouses, to a police officer on lunch break at Subway than to the same police officer standing at our car window with ticket book in hand, to employees than to customers, to siblings than to elderly in-laws, etc, etc, etc. But leaving profanity as your "default self" conveys the message,
I'm going to assume you deserve as little respect as possible, and I'll only give you more than that if there's a convincing reason to.
Or, in other words,
I don't feel like I'm being myself when I speak politely is just a lefthanded way of saying
I'm fundamentally an insolent person.