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Gratuitous use of curse / swear / vulgar words.

Started by bwana39, January 10, 2023, 08:30:57 AM

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ethanhopkin14

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 03:39:12 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:32:20 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 11:50:33 AM
I'll turn it around. Just out of curiosity, when you do think it is appropriate to use profanity? (For the record, I've cursed in front of the owner of companies that I've worked for. Pick and choose a time, sure, but it was fitting given the context.)

Never. Even if it might be deemed "appropriate" in some contexts and not in others, when you boil it right down it's never actually necessary. As a good friend of mine once said (I believe repeating something he was told as a kid), swearing just means you're lacking vocabulary. I couldn't agree more, and he's certainly proved it by coming up with some pretty hilarious expressions to use instead (think Captain Haddock).

I mean, it's never necessary to use the word "lacking". You could have said missing, deficient, without, sans, etc. But you said it anyway. Necessity isn't the best measure. And, really, what difference is there between saying "Mother Trucker" and M*** F***? We know what you mean. Why do a string of letters get people so bent out of shape?

The difference is that the word "lacking" was part of my actual point, whereas profanity is usually an additive and wouldn't have to be replaced with a synonym.

No comment on the second part... I hesitated to even contribute to this thread because I didn't want to get into that debate, and I don't want to box myself into the corner of sounding supremely self-righteous, which is where that would be headed even though that's not how I meant it.  :-D

That's the point I'm making though. "Lacking" could have been replaced by any of those other words I suggested. In the context of my quote, "effing" could be replaced by absolutely, awe-inspiringly, ridiculously, etc. But, it wasn't. Just like "lacking" wasn't in your case. Had I said "this post is ridiculously awesome", you wouldn't have told me the word "ridiculously" was unnecessary. I just don't understand the hand-wringing that takes place because of the choice of one synonym or another.

I disagree.  You are talking synonyms vs. using a different adjective.  If you said "this sandwich is F-ing fantastic", a synonym would be "this sandwich is sexing fantastic" or fornicating, screwing or intercorsing.  It really makes no sense that way, since these words are very seldom or never used as adjectives.  A different adjective would be "this sandwich is freaking amazing", proving that the cursing wasn't really necessary except to really put an exclamation point on how good you think that sandwich was. 

Any adjective can be substituted for another adjective that may not be a synonym.  Using lacking in lieu of missing is a direct swap.  It's like when the Rangers traded Ruben Sierra for Jose Canseco.  A star for a star; pretty even trade, as opposed to these trades where one guy is traded for three players and a minor leaguer to be named later.   :-D


paulthemapguy



The establishment of baseless rules against other people, as a basis of judging against them for their failure to comply, is the real travesty.
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SectorZ

Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 10, 2023, 09:12:24 AM
Jokes aside, society has become too vulgar with its word choices. I think the most gratuitous example is a subreddit that I sometimes see on my home page, "r/interestingasf***". And when I see it, I'm thinking: is that really necessary? Do you really need to browse a forum with a name like that?

I think the same thing almost every time I click on a certain Google Maps thread on this forum.

Do you remember when sucks was considered nearly as bad? Probably not given your age, but it seems like it was a bad word thru the 80's or so. I remember Harry Anderson saying it in an episode of Night Court and it being controversial, and this was like 1989 or so.

Scott5114

#53
Quote from: bwana39 on January 10, 2023, 11:37:31 AM
Would you say it to the CEO  or Executive Director of your work organization / company?

The CEO of my company created a thread on this forum entitled "Google Maps just fucking SUCKS now", so yes. Yes I would.

I've posted my thoughts on the subject before:

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 22, 2021, 07:37:56 PM
When I was younger, my parents strictly forbid profanity and I'd get spanked if I said so much as "damn". Then I grew up and realized they're just words, and, just like any other word, carry an unspoken connotation that sometimes makes it where choosing a swear word can communicate one's point with more precision than any other word. "That's very disgusting", "that's extremely disgusting", and "that's fucking disgusting" all communicate three very different levels of disgust by the speaker (and to me, at least, I read the first two as the speaker being less disgusted themselves and speaking in a more detached manner than the third). As someone who prides myself on my abilities with the written word, choosing to eliminate fucking from my vocabulary makes about as much sense as a painter eliminating orange from their palette would.

Quote from: SectorZ on January 10, 2023, 04:15:52 PM
Do you remember when sucks was considered nearly as bad? Probably not given your age, but it seems like it was a bad word thru the 80's or so. I remember Harry Anderson saying it in an episode of Night Court and it being controversial, and this was like 1989 or so.

I remember various authority figures tried to make "shut up" a curse word when I was growing up. Also, "gay". Granted, in the 1990s, most people were using it as an insult, which shouldn't have been done. But if someone were to theoretically try to discuss someone who was actually gay they would have gotten into trouble.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

JayhawkCO

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 10, 2023, 03:57:15 PM
I disagree.  You are talking synonyms vs. using a different adjective.  If you said "this sandwich is F-ing fantastic", a synonym would be "this sandwich is sexing fantastic" or fornicating, screwing or intercorsing.  It really makes no sense that way, since these words are very seldom or never used as adjectives.  A different adjective would be "this sandwich is freaking amazing", proving that the cursing wasn't really necessary except to really put an exclamation point on how good you think that sandwich was. 

Any adjective can be substituted for another adjective that may not be a synonym.  Using lacking in lieu of missing is a direct swap.  It's like when the Rangers traded Ruben Sierra for Jose Canseco.  A star for a star; pretty even trade, as opposed to these trades where one guy is traded for three players and a minor leaguer to be named later.   :-D

A) The exclamation point would be the reason to use the word in the first place, so objective achieved. B) "Effing" has more than one meaning, so therefore more than one set of synonyms. Off the top of my head, in different contexts it can have the following word as synonyms: very, fornicating, goofing, leaving, etc.

The word is only a "swear word" because it was the word of the proletariat and not the elite in England who preferred the Latin words.

**Trigger warning. About to use profanity.**

Cock = Old English, Penis = Latin
Piss = Old French, Urinate = Latin
Shit = Germanic, Defecate = Latin
Fuck = Germanic, Fornicate = Latin

They meant the exact same thing once upon a time and, in reality, do now too. One just got "spanked".

US 89

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 12:30:19 PM
(I'm aware this was a restaurant, not a bar.)

You're smarter than some Utah state legislators, then, who need to be handed this stuff on a silver platter:


JayhawkCO

That just prevents (prevented?) the private club membership from being enforced, yeah?

MultiMillionMiler

Quote from: roadman65 on January 10, 2023, 11:20:49 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on January 10, 2023, 11:16:44 AM
I remember one time when I was about 11, some kid muttered the F-word at a store. I think it was our local Kmart. Some old woman heard him and got really mad!

Once about 5 years ago, I was in Kroger, and some kid who was about 10 was there with his family. He loudly ranted for a half-hour that he got a lousy toy from one of those coin-operated vending machines that dispenses a random toy. He used every word in the book!

Not to violate what MMM was last reprimanded for, but the kid was no doubt possible on the spectrum as it sounds like a child in the news who was asked to leave a flight cause she was ranting quite loudly disturbing the other passengers over something silly.  That was reported in the news of the teen being Autistic who was problematic.

The airline should be sued for discrimination. People aren't entitled to a perfectly peaceful flight. It's for transportation, and the way they treat customers like criminals from the moment one enters the premises, and make 1 hr flights take 5 hrs, they've got nerve to whine about things like that. It's getting so bad that even senators (who usually don't care much about citizens quality of life) are calling for passengers to have a bill of rights.

US 89

#58
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 04:54:30 PM
That just prevents (prevented?) the private club membership from being enforced, yeah?

The private club law hasn't been a thing since 2009.

Those signs were introduced a few years back basically because one of the old Mormon dudes in the legislature got offended once when he walked into what he thought was a restaurant but was actually a bar. The signs were apparently part of a compromise that included repealing the Zion Curtain law, which required an opaque (generally frosted glass) barrier so no innocent young minds eating in restaurants could be corrupted by the sight of mixed drinks being made. Instead, restaurants may now dispose of the Curtain as long as they have a 10-foot buffer zone around the bar area where minors aren't allowed to sit.

The sign aspect of the law was repealed after a year because literally everybody thought it was dumb.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: US 89 on January 10, 2023, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 04:54:30 PM
That just prevents (prevented?) the private club membership from being enforced, yeah?

The private club law hasn't been a thing since 2009.

Those signs were introduced a few years back basically because one of the old Mormon dudes in the legislature got offended once when he walked into what he thought was a restaurant but was actually a bar. They were evidently part of a compromise that also included repealing the Zion Curtain law, which required an opaque (generally frosted glass) barrier so no innocent young minds eating in restaurants could be corrupted by the sight of mixed drinks being made. Instead, restaurants may now dispose of the Curtain as long as they have a 10-foot buffer zone around the bar area where minors aren't allowed to sit.

The sign law was repealed within a year because literally everybody thought it was dumb.

I knew about the magic curtain law. I'm assuming they still have the "you can't have a drink until you've ordered food" law?

Rothman

On the other hand, my father's LDS congregation in American Fork when he was a kid, according to him, had great dances for the youth...until one of the local leaders decided they turned the church gym into something that resembled a bar...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kphoger

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

"Words are just words."  Yes, of course, there isn't anything inherently good or bad about a combination of sounds.  But words only exist within a cultural context.  When you choose a word that is widely considered offensive within your culture, then you accept the cultural baggage that comes with it.  Don't be surprised when people are offended.  You made the decision.  By this point in your life, you've learned a dozen different ways of saying the same basic thing.  When a swear word has just the right amount of oomph for the connotation you wish to convey, then it's likely you can find another, less offensive word that would come awfully close.  And, when you still decide to go with the swear word, then that decision must necessarily consider what other people think about that word.  And if you don't consider what other people think of the specific words you say, then you're languaging wrongly–and fooling yourself too.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: kphoger on January 10, 2023, 06:49:31 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

"Words are just words."  Yes, of course, there isn't anything inherently good or bad about a combination of sounds.  But words only exist within a cultural context.  When you choose a word that is widely considered offensive within your culture, then you accept the cultural baggage that comes with it.  Don't be surprised when people are offended.  You made the decision.  By this point in your life, you've learned a dozen different ways of saying the same basic thing.  When a swear word has just the right amount of oomph for the connotation you wish to convey, then it's likely you can find another, less offensive word that would come awfully close.  And, when you still decide to go with the swear word, then that decision must necessarily consider what other people think about that word.  And if you don't consider what other people think of the specific words you say, then you're languaging wrongly–and fooling yourself too.

As always, I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Yes, people could convey meaning without using swear words. But also those who think the words are the spawn of Satan need to realize that they are "just words". I don't swear casually in public situations that wouldn't be welcoming of such things, but even if I do, it's quiet enough to my conversation partner that no one need be concerned.

kphoger

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 06:59:01 PM
As always, I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Yes, people could convey meaning without using swear words. But also those who think the words are the spawn of Satan need to realize that they are "just words". I don't swear casually in public situations that wouldn't be welcoming of such things, but even if I do, it's quiet enough to my conversation partner that no one need be concerned.

So, like, you exercise common sense?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Henry

Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 10:41:37 AM
I remember Dennis Rodman dropping an f-bomb during the victory rally after the Bulls won the championship in 1993. It was being carried live on WGN.
Your memory must be clouded, because at this point in 1993, Rodman didn't dye his hair, and he damn sure did not play for the Bulls. You're probably thinking about a championship rally that occurred between 1996 and 1998.

As long as we're on the subject of Chicago sports championship rallies, Blackhawks goalie Corey Crawford was well-known for dropping F-bombs in his speeches. The one I remember most is "Fucking right, Chicago!"

I used to think that "bastard" and "son of a bitch" meant the same thing; is there anyone else who felt the same way? Of course, the latter's "bitch" was often changed to "gun" in media edits, with one prominent example being the Charlie Daniels Band's The Devil Went Down to Georgia. But then again, no one calls anybody an SOG, not that I know of anyway.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

formulanone

#65
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 03:30:33 PM
Quote from: formulanone on January 10, 2023, 03:25:47 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on January 10, 2023, 03:11:17 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 11:50:33 AM
I'll turn it around. Just out of curiosity, when you do think it is appropriate to use profanity? (For the record, I've cursed in front of the owner of companies that I've worked for. Pick and choose a time, sure, but it was fitting given the context.)

Never. Even if it might be deemed "appropriate" in some contexts and not in others, when you boil it right down it's never actually necessary. As a good friend of mine once said (I believe repeating something he was told as a kid), swearing just means you're lacking vocabulary. I couldn't agree more, and he's certainly proved it by coming up with some pretty hilarious expressions to use instead (think Captain Haddock ).

I mean, it's never necessary to use the word "lacking". You could have said missing, deficient, without, sans, etc. But you said it anyway. Necessity isn't the best measure. And, really, what difference is there between saying "Mother Trucker" and M*** F***? We know what you mean. Why do a string of letters get people so bent out of shape?

It's attention-robbing after a while, that's what. When the same extreme words are used repeatedly, they lose their meaning, remove context, and don't have the same emphasis.

See what I mean? :)

I know your post is tongue in cheek, but I've actually heard that before. If I say something is effing amazing, I want emphasis, much like Spanish uses ísimo (i.e. muchísimo gracias meaning thank you so, so much). That loses the f-words meaning as much as had I said "very, very amazing" reduces the meaning of "very".

Yes, saying very, very, very, is childish. But saying "as fuck" comes off as a teenager who just learned a new phrase that doesn't really mean much either. It would lose meaning just as any other word that's trendy or overused would begin to sound trite after a while. The problem is that not everyone knows all the same twenty-five-cent words, though they may know the fifty-cent ones. Most people watch TV and consume social media, they don't read books nor take deeper dives into intellectual pursuits.

But I think because those words are thought of as naughty, or become societally repressed that they've stuck around, because they get the attention they were intending in the first place. There's some age in context to be sure; to a 10-year-old, a dirty word is a powerful spell they haven't learned to master, so they make sure to use it every chance they can, until they're bored of it (or realize they had no idea of what they were saying). Just like that annoying co-worker or media personality who says the same cliché catchphrase every day.

To be sure, using it sparingly and tactically is still a fine weapon; that's when it works...that's the opposite of gratuitously. As the original post said, it gets tiresome hearing the same words over and over again. It's lazy writing and peppered into weak dialogue that isn't lifting up anything, it just wants us to be as miserable or attention-seeking as the characters in the box.

Gotta admit, it's probably tough creating entertainment in these times, when life seems a lot more prone to chaos and adventure than any team of writers could concoct.

US 89

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 05:07:46 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 10, 2023, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 04:54:30 PM
That just prevents (prevented?) the private club membership from being enforced, yeah?

The private club law hasn't been a thing since 2009.

Those signs were introduced a few years back basically because one of the old Mormon dudes in the legislature got offended once when he walked into what he thought was a restaurant but was actually a bar. They were evidently part of a compromise that also included repealing the Zion Curtain law, which required an opaque (generally frosted glass) barrier so no innocent young minds eating in restaurants could be corrupted by the sight of mixed drinks being made. Instead, restaurants may now dispose of the Curtain as long as they have a 10-foot buffer zone around the bar area where minors aren't allowed to sit.

The sign law was repealed within a year because literally everybody thought it was dumb.

I knew about the magic curtain law. I'm assuming they still have the "you can't have a drink until you've ordered food" law?

I believe it's still on the books, but actual compliance with it seems to have dropped a bit in recent years among restaurants.

Enforcement is probably down a bit too. Current Utah Gov. Spencer Cox, while Mormon himself, has shown some real interest in revamping Utah's liquor laws to look more like what you'd find in the rest of the country. The Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control was renamed to the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Services under his tenure, for example. However, any real change requires the state legislature to be on board, and they are generally a much older and more traditionalist group.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: kphoger on January 10, 2023, 07:00:20 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 06:59:01 PM
As always, I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Yes, people could convey meaning without using swear words. But also those who think the words are the spawn of Satan need to realize that they are "just words". I don't swear casually in public situations that wouldn't be welcoming of such things, but even if I do, it's quiet enough to my conversation partner that no one need be concerned.

So, like, you exercise common sense?

Shocking it still exists, eh?

abefroman329

Quote from: Henry on January 10, 2023, 07:45:32 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 10, 2023, 10:41:37 AM
I remember Dennis Rodman dropping an f-bomb during the victory rally after the Bulls won the championship in 1993. It was being carried live on WGN.
Your memory must be clouded, because at this point in 1993, Rodman didn't dye his hair, and he damn sure did not play for the Bulls. You're probably thinking about a championship rally that occurred between 1996 and 1998.
Ah, yeah, probably.

Quote from: Henry on January 10, 2023, 07:45:32 PMI used to think that "bastard" and "son of a bitch" meant the same thing; is there anyone else who felt the same way? Of course, the latter's "bitch" was often changed to "gun" in media edits, with one prominent example being the Charlie Daniels Band's The Devil Went Down to Georgia. But then again, no one calls anybody an SOG, not that I know of anyway.
When they were editing the TV version of Smokey and the Bandit, they invented the term "scumbum"  to replace Buford T. Justice's use of the term "sumbitch."

Urban Prairie Schooner

I can think of many otherwise good films that were ruined due to overuse of the f-word.

Unless it's absolutely necessary to make a point, swear words just make the speaker sound uneducated and tactless.

kphoger

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 08:17:17 PM

Quote from: kphoger on January 10, 2023, 07:00:20 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 10, 2023, 06:59:01 PM
As always, I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. Yes, people could convey meaning without using swear words. But also those who think the words are the spawn of Satan need to realize that they are "just words". I don't swear casually in public situations that wouldn't be welcoming of such things, but even if I do, it's quiet enough to my conversation partner that no one need be concerned.

So, like, you exercise common sense?

Shocking it still exists, eh?

There's a very, very short list of times that I almost got into a physical fight.  #2 on that list was the time my family were walking into Wal-Mart, and a lady in a car that was parallel-parked near the entrance was cussing up a storm–worse than what I hear at work, and I work with cable guys.  The windows were down (duh, or else I couldn't have heard her), and her husband was in the driver's seat.  My boys were quite young at the time.  I said, "Excuse me, sir, would you please have your wife watch her language around my children?"  He got out of the car, came around the front, and stood in front of me.

– You got a problem?
– Yes.
– [dumbfounded silence]
– Do you have a problem with my wife?
– Yes.  Would you please tell her to watch her language around my children?
– You got a problem with my wife, you got a problem with me.
– [a stare-off . . . ]

He got back in the car.  His wife resumed cussing up a storm, but this time directed at me instead of whomever she was going on about originally.  My wife and sons were standing off to the side, patiently awaiting the outcome.  We headed into Wal-Mart.  My wife held my hand and told me she loved me.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

bwana39

Quote from: Urban Prairie Schooner on January 10, 2023, 09:21:51 PM
I can think of many otherwise good films that were ruined due to overuse of the f-word.

Unless it's absolutely necessary to make a point, swear words just make the speaker sound uneducated and tactless.

HEAR Hear!
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Bruce

Swearing adds spice to language. "Fuck" is an incredibly versatile word that can be used in all sorts of creative ways.

There's been a few studies into the science of swearing and cursing that have found some interesting things, such as its relationship to intelligence, honesty, pain tolerance, and stress relief.

In short, lighten the fuck up.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Bruce on January 10, 2023, 11:22:23 PM
Swearing adds spice to language. "Fuck" is an incredibly versatile word that can be used in all sorts of creative ways.

There's been a few studies into the science of swearing and cursing that have found some interesting things, such as its relationship to intelligence, honesty, pain tolerance, and stress relief.

In short, lighten the fuck up.

HEAR Hear!

paulthemapguy

It's far healthier to let off steam gradually and non-violently.  Using foul language to diffuse anger or frustration is far less harmful then letting it build into an explosive, violent rage.  It's a strategy for stress relief.  When you take this strategy off the table, for fear of closed-minded puritans condemning your behavior, you set the course for more destructive demonstrations of such frustration or anger.  I actually don't feel as comfortable with other people if they don't swear. People who don't swear are people who put on airs, and judge against others for baseless reasons- or they simply fear becoming the victim of this judgment. But I prefer to surround myself with people who don't need to make up reasons to feel superior to other people.
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