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Regional Boards => Northwest => Topic started by: jakeroot on April 21, 2014, 06:29:22 PM

Title: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on April 21, 2014, 06:29:22 PM
Current Status (as of 04 FEBRUARY 2019):

TUNNEL OPEN ... ENJOY!




Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Program

In summer 2013, the world's largest-diameter tunneling machine began a historic journey beneath downtown Seattle. Its purpose: dig a tunnel to replace the SR 99 Alaskan Way Viaduct, a double-deck highway that has spanned the downtown waterfront for more than 60 years.

The machine's task sounds straightforward enough, but the story behind it is complicated. It begins with an earthquake in 2001 that damaged the viaduct and led to a decade of debate about how to replace the structure. The story's conclusion is unfolding now, as we at the Washington State Department of Transportation, along with our agency partners, build a new SR 99 corridor through Seattle that includes:

- A two-mile-long tunnel (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/About/Tunneling) beneath downtown Seattle.
- A mile-long stretch of new highway that connects to the south entrance of the tunnel, near Seattle's stadiums.
- A new overpass (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/projects/viaduct/Media/Default/Documents/South_End.jpg) at the south end of downtown that allows traffic to bypass train blockages near Seattle's busiest port terminal.
- Demolition of the viaduct's downtown waterfront section.
- A new Alaskan Way (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Media/Default/Documents/12%20Proposed%20Vision%20for%20the%20Seattle%20Waterfront%20-%20view%20south.jpg) surface street along the waterfront that connects SR 99 to downtown.

The tunnel will change the way traffic uses SR 99 in Seattle. Drivers approaching the tunnel from either direction will face a choice depending on their destination: use the tunnel to bypass downtown or exit to city streets and head into downtown. At the tunnel's north end (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Media/Default/Documents/2013_0129_NorthPortal_Updated_sm.jpg), downtown access will be similar to today, with on- and off-ramps near Seattle Center. From the south (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/projects/viaduct/Media/Default/Documents/South_Portal.jpg), new on- and off-ramps will connect SR 99 to downtown via the new waterfront street.

Halfway There

Half of the viaduct is already gone, demolished (http://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/6420451569/in/set-72157631529321391) and replaced by our crews at the south end of downtown, near Seattle's stadiums. Completed on budget (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Budget) and one year ahead of schedule (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Schedule), this new section of SR 99 connects to the remaining viaduct along the waterfront to keep SR 99 traffic moving until the tunnel opens in 2016 2017 2018 2019.

Related Projects

As part of the Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Program, King County, City of Seattle and the Port of Seattle are planning street (http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/awv.htm), transit and waterfront improvements (http://www.waterfrontseattle.org/). Click on the related projects map above to learn more.

Waterfront Improvements:

The Waterfront Seattle website (http://waterfrontseattle.org/overview) has many images, links, and plans that may be of interest.




Photos

Final Design:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fww2.hdnux.com%2Fphotos%2F05%2F52%2F20%2F1483781%2F4%2F628x471.jpg&hash=bd242070e0782e19a97fcecef432eae3b7db5790)

South Portal:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsdot.wa.gov%2Fprojects%2Fviaduct%2FMedia%2FDefault%2FDocuments%2FSouth_Portal.jpg&hash=a0ec680348367bd93e1bbb8540a25ff32c1b6e28)

North Portal:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8516/8430650790_be9052718d_z.jpg)

Bertha, seen before she was put together:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.djc.com%2Fstories%2Fimages%2F20121211%2FTBM2_big.jpg&hash=c1f6535c8394772b4964a5577861f221c3cc2476)

Waterfront Plans

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F1reVmw8.png&hash=b9075258dfb336314bf8df58e4ba4a3f381c2422)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.downtownseattle.com%2Fassets%2F2014%2F02%2FWaterfront-ground-level.jpg&hash=68b146650d00de835a0f83aac0eeb36cd6e65287)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Farchpaper.com%2Fuploads%2Fimage%2Fseattle_waterfront_00.jpg&hash=23429ef61d4ab05ccc7c7ee69726958b82aba4b5)

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Anthony_JK on April 22, 2014, 02:46:52 AM
I thought that construction of the Alaskan Way tunnel had been delayed due to cost overruns and the desire of some to simply ditch the tunnel AND the viaduct in favor of an at-grade surface boulevard concept? I'm guessing that the tunnel is still on, then?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on April 22, 2014, 12:09:42 PM
That is in fact true. It had been delayed because they took their sweet time coming to a final decision on what and how to build. But that's all several stages in the past now. Construction started, but is stalled because Bertha ran into a pipe she couldn't cut through. Other construction in the area is progressing; for example, the roadway labeled "New S. Atlantic Street overcrossing" recently opened.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on April 22, 2014, 12:50:21 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on April 22, 2014, 12:09:42 PM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on April 22, 2014, 02:46:52 AMI thought that construction of the Alaskan Way tunnel had been delayed due to cost overruns and the desire of some to simply ditch the tunnel AND the viaduct in favor of an at-grade surface boulevard concept? I'm guessing that the tunnel is still on, then?

That is in fact true. It had been delayed because they took their sweet time coming to a final decision on what and how to build. But that's all several stages in the past now. Construction started, but is stalled because Bertha ran into a pipe she couldn't cut through. Other construction in the area is progressing; for example, the roadway labeled "New S. Atlantic Street overcrossing" recently opened.

Indeed, everything else is still moving along just fine. But, Anthony, as you mentioned, there has been some pretty severe backlash at WSDOT in the last year because they keep screwing things up. The pontoons were leaking for the new 520 bridge, they want to toll I-90 (fine by me), apparently they get paid too much (I disagree), they are "mis-using funds" as a whole (not helping their case for tolling I-90), and now Bertha is stuck. It's gotten so bad that now, the state senate can't even pass a transportation budget because no one trusts WashDOT to use the funds correctly.

I think we are just doing too many super-projects at once, and these super-projects always have cost-overruns and unforeseen problems, and the people of Seattle, who are well known for their "Seattle Process" (where it takes 10 years to decide a bus stop), can't take it all at once.

Quite a few people indeed want to abandon the project and just build a new viaduct. I don't mind the viaduct, but after seeing what the removal of the Embarcadero freeway did for San Fran, I really want to see that happen in Seattle. I am kind of selfish, but I want to see the downtown thrive.

Also, there's a huge hole under the city which would cost more to fill-up then it would cost to just finish the project.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on April 22, 2014, 01:07:57 PM
No, the project isn't going to be abandoned.  It's just going to be late.  Some people would like it to be abandoned, but they are the same people who never wanted it to begin with.

The Legislature isn't picking on WashDOT in particular, they haven't been able to get much of anything done on quite a few issues due to a partisan split and unwillingness to do anything except shoot down the other side's ideas.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on April 22, 2014, 05:24:52 PM
Partisan politics. Ugh.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on April 22, 2014, 06:34:46 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 22, 2014, 01:07:57 PM
No, the project isn't going to be abandoned.  It's just going to be late.  Some people would like it to be abandoned, but they are the same people who never wanted it to begin with.

The Legislature isn't picking on WashDOT in particular, they haven't been able to get much of anything done on quite a few issues due to a partisan split and unwillingness to do anything except shoot down the other side's ideas.

It's not going to be late, it's going to be on time, instead of a year early. All of us are wondering what Bertha hit, because I haven't seen anything that says they found a culprit.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on April 22, 2014, 06:47:33 PM
Quote from: Alps on April 22, 2014, 06:34:46 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 22, 2014, 01:07:57 PM
No, the project isn't going to be abandoned.  It's just going to be late.  Some people would like it to be abandoned, but they are the same people who never wanted it to begin with.

The Legislature isn't picking on WashDOT in particular, they haven't been able to get much of anything done on quite a few issues due to a partisan split and unwillingness to do anything except shoot down the other side's ideas.

It's not going to be late, it's going to be on time, instead of a year early. All of us are wondering what Bertha hit, because I haven't seen anything that says they found a culprit.

It was a pipe. (http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2022593902_berthametalxml.html) That DOT knew about.  :banghead:
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: KEK Inc. on April 22, 2014, 09:47:40 PM
They're already gentrifying Downtown Seattle, so whatever.  Obviously the old viaduct is a liability, but I don't think the tunnel will help anything (particularly since it's 2 lanes instead of 3). 
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on April 25, 2014, 02:44:32 PM
The area that is currently occupied by the viaduct is going to be re-developed into a series of plazas and parks down Alaskan Way, supposedly by 2020. (Link from WaterfrontSeattle.org (http://waterfrontseattle.org/design/plans.aspx))
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: KEK Inc. on April 25, 2014, 04:21:24 PM
I'm more excited with a modern ferry terminal more than an Alaskan Embarcadero.   That part of downtown isn't the part that desperately needs gentrification.  Problem areas are in the Southern-inland end around the Int'l District.  Pioneer Square and Sodo are not neighborhoods I'd advised doing your late night constitutional without some sort of defense. 
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on April 25, 2014, 05:43:44 PM
I want a modern version of the Waterfront Streetcar to run along the waterfront plaza. From King Street and Chinatown/ID Station to the Seattle Center.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: KEK Inc. on April 25, 2014, 10:48:14 PM
Quote from: Bruce on April 25, 2014, 05:43:44 PM
I want a modern version of the Waterfront Streetcar to run along the waterfront plaza. From King Street and Chinatown/ID Station to the Seattle Center.

If it links with the SLUT / Fred Hutch-UW future line, then I'm down for streetcars.  I don't support street car services that don't a) support UPASS/Orca or b) isolated.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on April 26, 2014, 12:22:37 AM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 25, 2014, 10:48:14 PM
Quote from: Bruce on April 25, 2014, 05:43:44 PM
I want a modern version of the Waterfront Streetcar to run along the waterfront plaza. From King Street and Chinatown/ID Station to the Seattle Center.

If it links with the SLUT / Fred Hutch-UW future line, then I'm down for streetcars.  I don't support street car services that don't a) support UPASS/Orca or b) isolated.

Isolated makes maintenance more of a hassle, but isn't a problem for riders. 

The waterfront streetcar was very popular.  The city should never allowed the sculpture garden to take its maintenance barn without providing an alternative in advance.  The mayor and council were all full of promises about how they'd find another way to do it, that have come to nothing.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on April 26, 2014, 11:52:22 PM
The pre-cast concrete sections of the tunnel are massive. I took a picture of a pile of them from CenturyLink Field:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5268/14027594425_a5bb9fc14c_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on April 27, 2014, 12:23:59 AM
That reminds me, remember that tornado (http://www.king5.com/news/local/Strong-windstorm--Western-Washington-weekend-225716201.html) last October at Frederickson near Puyallup? These are a couple photos I took of the damage.

The second photo is the interesting one. You can make out near the center of the photo a building with it's roof ripped away. That's the place where the build those concrete walls. I grew up off Canyon Road not too far from the plant, and I was home from university when the tornado hit.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FY0buWqV.jpg&hash=82b9dac2c850f611ef568345243f1c5da8b8d7e1)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4X7toaJ.jpg&hash=3cf21ab9931c3a6ff458b71fddac2dca89c042c2)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 17, 2014, 05:00:36 PM
Wall Street Journal: Seattle Tunnel Project Isn't Boring - City Faces Cost Concerns, Completion Delays as Mammoth Drill Sits Broken; a Tweet From Below (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303851804579558370315425370)

QuoteSEATTLE–For a multibillion-dollar public-works project called the Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement, this city brought in a digging machine touted as the largest deployed anywhere: a 7,000-ton behemoth nicknamed "Bertha."

QuoteThe megamachine's job was to create a 1.7-mile-long tunnel that would allow the state transit authority to reroute a section of Washington State Road 99 underground to replace a 61-year-old traffic-choked viaduct that authorities say is seismically unsafe and must be replaced.

QuoteBut Bertha has been stuck since early December when the tunnel-boring machine hit an 8-inch diameter, ¾-inch thick steel well-casing after only 1,000 feet of drilling, threatening both a delay in the $3.1 billion project's completion and a multimillion-dollar cost increase.

QuoteNow, Bertha's operator and the state transit authority are sparring over the cost of repairs. And the repair work itself is the subject of a lawsuit–with defendants' responses due later this month–from a local watchdog group calling for an additional environmental study.

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on May 17, 2014, 09:19:26 PM
I don't understand why WSDOT wanted a double-decker tunnel anyway.  If they had just made two parallel tunnels, we wouldn't need a massive, new drilling machine, and it wouldn't be so difficult to get fixed.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 18, 2014, 01:34:53 AM
Quote from: TEG24601 on May 17, 2014, 09:19:26 PM
I don't understand why WSDOT wanted a double-decker tunnel anyway.  If they had just made two parallel tunnels, we wouldn't need a massive, new drilling machine, and it wouldn't be so difficult to get fixed.

They apparently wanted "limited disruption". Meanwhile, Sound Transit is boring twin tunnels all over North Seattle with little to no problems.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mrsman on May 18, 2014, 08:41:11 AM
I note that Google Maps very clearly denotes the proposed route of the new tunnel.

Here's my question:

Google maps shows the tunnel ROW leaving Aurora Ave at Republican Street.  Traffic can either take the new tunnel to bypass Downtown and head for the stadiums or continue along Aurora and head for the Battery Street tunnel.  The Battery Street tunnel leaves the tunnel at 1st Avenue and then heads for the Viaduct.  But the viaduct is about supposed to be removed for this project.  What plans are there for the southern portal of the Battery Street tunnel?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: dfilpus on May 18, 2014, 10:11:23 AM
Quote from: mrsman on May 18, 2014, 08:41:11 AM
I note that Google Maps very clearly denotes the proposed route of the new tunnel.

Here's my question:

Google maps shows the tunnel ROW leaving Aurora Ave at Republican Street.  Traffic can either take the new tunnel to bypass Downtown and head for the stadiums or continue along Aurora and head for the Battery Street tunnel.  The Battery Street tunnel leaves the tunnel at 1st Avenue and then heads for the Viaduct.  But the viaduct is about supposed to be removed for this project.  What plans are there for the southern portal of the Battery Street tunnel?
According to WSDOT, the Battery Street tunnel will be closed and filled after the SR 99 tunnel is open.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on May 20, 2014, 03:09:43 PM
Bertha's breakdown is about the only thing worse than those ceiling tiles falling in the Big Dig tunnel in a certain city that sits at the other end of I-90!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on May 20, 2014, 06:31:08 PM
Quote from: Henry on May 20, 2014, 03:09:43 PM
Bertha's breakdown is about the only thing worse than those ceiling tiles falling in the Big Dig tunnel in a certain city that sits at the other end of I-90!
Logically then, the next massive project will be the Skyway's replacement, and Chicago's politics will make the Big Dig and the Little Dig (what are we calling this project?)'s woes seem insignificant.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on May 20, 2014, 07:51:40 PM
Quote from: Henry on May 20, 2014, 03:09:43 PM
Bertha's breakdown is about the only thing worse than those ceiling tiles falling in the Big Dig tunnel in a certain city that sits at the other end of I-90!

The ceiling tiles killed some poor slob.  The Alaskan Way Tunnel hasn't (yet).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on May 22, 2014, 12:58:42 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on May 20, 2014, 06:31:08 PM
Quote from: Henry on May 20, 2014, 03:09:43 PM
Bertha's breakdown is about the only thing worse than those ceiling tiles falling in the Big Dig tunnel in a certain city that sits at the other end of I-90!
Logically then, the next massive project will be the Skyway's replacement, and Chicago's politics will make the Big Dig and the Little Dig (what are we calling this project?)'s woes seem insignificant.


They already replaced much of the skyway in the first decade of this century.  I remember driving over it well.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Revive 755 on May 22, 2014, 09:39:02 PM
^ Really?  Looks more like a major rehab to me since it still has the truss bridge (Streetview) (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.718823,-87.544395&spn=0.007175,0.016512&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.719078,-87.544787&panoid=iV3dMqyWJaa_4t350MmRqw&cbp=12,134.86,,0,5.96) that a full replacement probably would have done away with.

I would go with a replacement of the long viaduct on I-90/I-94 from the Chinatown Feeder to about 15th Street near the Chicago Loop: Google aerial photo (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.852269,-87.635965&spn=0.014385,0.033023&t=k&z=16)

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on May 23, 2014, 02:40:57 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 22, 2014, 09:39:02 PM
^ Really?  Looks more like a major rehab to me since it still has the truss bridge (Streetview) (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.718823,-87.544395&spn=0.007175,0.016512&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.719078,-87.544787&panoid=iV3dMqyWJaa_4t350MmRqw&cbp=12,134.86,,0,5.96) that a full replacement probably would have done away with.

I would go with a replacement of the long viaduct on I-90/I-94 from the Chinatown Feeder to about 15th Street near the Chicago Loop: Google aerial photo (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.852269,-87.635965&spn=0.014385,0.033023&t=k&z=16)


Good luck with that, because burying it in a trench or even underground would require a steep descent after crossing the Chicago River.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 02, 2014, 12:59:33 PM
N.Y. Times: Reanimating Bertha, a Mechanical Behemoth Slumbering Under Seattle (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/us/reanimating-bertha-the-mechanical-behemoth-stuck-under-seattle.html)

QuoteSEATTLE – Sometime this fall, a huge vertical shaft lined with 84 concrete pilings, designed to hold back the slurry that defines underground Seattle, will be finished, and a Mr. Fix-It operation unlike any other will begin.

QuoteThe world's biggest tunnel-boring machine, nicknamed Bertha – which hit a pipe and was damaged in mid-December after only 1,000 feet of excavation – is down there in the dark, awaiting what may well be the world's biggest industrial rescue operation.

Quote"When you have such a big machine, you have a big intervention,"  said Youssef Hashash, a professor of civil and environmental engineering who teaches tunneling at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. When things break, he added, "it all scales up, and it scales up the challenge as well that you have to overcome."
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on August 03, 2014, 12:13:36 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 02, 2014, 12:59:33 PM
N.Y. Times: Reanimating Bertha, a Mechanical Behemoth Slumbering Under Seattle (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/us/reanimating-bertha-the-mechanical-behemoth-stuck-under-seattle.html)

QuoteThe world's biggest tunnel-boring machine, nicknamed Bertha – which hit a pipe and was damaged in mid-December after only 1,000 feet of excavation – is down there in the dark, awaiting what may well be the world's biggest industrial rescue operation.

It's worth pointing out that it's not at all clear that it was the pipe that damaged the boring machine.  That's mentioned elsewhere in the article.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on August 03, 2014, 08:11:39 PM
Eh.  The way I interpret everything I've read, saying "it's not at all clear" that it was the pipe somewhat misstates things.  I think it is relatively clear that it was the pipe, though difficult/impossible to prove with 100% certainty.

The more important dispute, though, is who's going to be responsible for the cost overruns caused by the repair and the delay.  If the problem was a pipe that WSDOT knew about and should have communicated better about, then that's one factor in settling that dispute, but it's only one factor, and possibly not even the most important one.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Brandon on August 04, 2014, 02:47:27 PM
Quote from: Henry on May 23, 2014, 02:40:57 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 22, 2014, 09:39:02 PM
^ Really?  Looks more like a major rehab to me since it still has the truss bridge (Streetview) (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.718823,-87.544395&spn=0.007175,0.016512&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.719078,-87.544787&panoid=iV3dMqyWJaa_4t350MmRqw&cbp=12,134.86,,0,5.96) that a full replacement probably would have done away with.

I would go with a replacement of the long viaduct on I-90/I-94 from the Chinatown Feeder to about 15th Street near the Chicago Loop: Google aerial photo (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.852269,-87.635965&spn=0.014385,0.033023&t=k&z=16)

Good luck with that, because burying it in a trench or even underground would require a steep descent after crossing the Chicago River.

And it's about as steep as it can be made right now.  Heavy trucks have issues climbing out of the Circle Interchange to cross both the South Branch of the Chicago River and the Stevenson Expressway.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on August 25, 2014, 08:00:02 PM
New video of the demolition of WA-99 (Aurora Avenue) above what was Broad Street at the north portal site.

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on August 27, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 25, 2014, 08:00:02 PM
New video of the demolition of WA-99 (Aurora Avenue) above what was Broad Street at the north portal site.


That's a very cool video! I wonder how the Bertha rescue mission is coming along.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: 707 on August 31, 2014, 02:16:02 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 25, 2014, 08:00:02 PM
New video of the demolition of WA-99 (Aurora Avenue) above what was Broad Street at the north portal site.



Sigh. I understand removing the Viaduct (which I'm not terribly happy about myself), but it saddens me to see part of the 1931-1939 US 99 Parkway that is Aurora Avenue being torn up, although I can see why it needs to happen.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: andy3175 on October 20, 2014, 09:43:57 AM
Quote from: Henry on August 27, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
I wonder how the Bertha rescue mission is coming along.

Latest article I could find was from late Sept:
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2024575494_berthatourxml.html

It seems to have some of the same info as the previously cited NY Times article, along with a bit more detail on work to be performed in the meantime.

Quote
Ever since tunnel-boring machine Bertha got stuck last winter, there haven't been many trucks delivering tools and concrete segments inside the giant tube. This lull allows enough room for workers behind the machine to start building the double-decker Highway 99 roadway at the Sodo end.

Quote
(Seattle Tunnel Partners) STP is trying to install 450 feet of the upper deck by March, when Bertha is supposed to resume digging, (Chris Dixon, project director) said. The machine is stuck 1,028 feet into its journey.

Quote
Before the $80 million machine can continue through downtown, its damaged main bearing must be replaced. The entire front end, some 30 feet long, will be largely rebuilt. Crews are now building a giant pit from which they can reach Bertha's front end. In front of the machine's cutter head, a 120-foot-deep concrete ring has been constructed and wells are now being positioned, to remove groundwater. A giant crane will be erected in mid-November, Dixon said, to lift Bertha's front end to the surface, where it will be disassembled and rebuilt.

Bertha embarked on the 9,270-foot route from Sodo to South Lake Union in July 2013. The original schedule called for the tunnel to open to traffic at the end of 2015. But last December, the cutterhead turned without breaking soil, and grit penetrated the seals, contributing to overheating the front end. Dixon hopes a repaired Bertha will break through at South Lake Union in early 2016.

Quote
Even though Bertha is stuck, STP's Dixon said construction on the overall tunnel project is roughly halfway done, and more than $900 million has been paid toward the $1.44 billion contract. The DOT has deducted some money because of a lack of forward progress but advanced other cash to STP for work at the north and south ends, said Matt Preedy, deputy Highway 99 administrator.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on October 20, 2014, 12:33:49 PM
I think it's awesome that they're already paving the part of the roadway that has already been bored through. Hopefully Bertha can start moving again within a few months.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 12, 2014, 03:18:32 AM
AASHTO Journal: Seattle Road Project Resumes After Pause for Archaeology Check on Shell Materials (http://www.aashtojournal.org/Pages/110714WSbertha.aspx)

QuoteWashington State Department of Transportation said state archaeologists gave Seattle Tunnel Partners the go-ahead on Nov. 2 to resume digging a rescue shaft toward a broken tunnel boring machine, part of a $3.1 billion Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement project.

QuoteContractors halted work Oct. 23 after workers digging the vertical shaft toward the giant tunnel digging device found shell material and called in experts to determine if it was related to the history of native tribes in the area.

QuoteBut after days of examining the material, and triggering an established process of notifying area tribal authorities, archaeologists believed the shells came from commercial shellfish activities by early Seattle settlers around the start of the 20th Century, WSDOT explained, and allowed the construction work to resume.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on November 12, 2014, 12:45:55 PM
"Oh, it's only early city history. Not important!"
:bigass:
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 11, 2014, 07:15:37 PM
Well, everyone's shitting bricks again:

SeattleWeekly.com: Pessimism Grows Over Tunnel Project; Seattle City Council Is Reaching Wit's End (http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/thedailyweekly/955731-129/pessimism-grows-over-tunnel-project-seattle)

Quote
"At some point is the pain is going to be so great that we ask, "˜Is there a Plan B?' This is like a nightmare you don't wake up from,"  Council member Nick Licata tells Seattle Weekly.

Quote
The risk O'Brien refers to is the possibility, however remote, that the 61-year-old viaduct is on its last legs and that additional drilling to forge a rescue pit to unearth the state's damaged $80 million tunnel boring machine may not be the wisest, or safest, of options—not when 30 Pioneer Square businesses appear to have sunk an inch or more over the past month. "Who knows how much longer it will remain standing,"  O'Brien tells the Weekly. "Will it be another two to three years? And what then? What if a truck damages a piling or whatever? So is continuing to dig the pit the best thing or should we repair it from the back?"

Quote
Regardlesss of WSDOT assurance, O'Brien has not ruled out shutting down the city-run highway that runs along the 2.1 mile double-decker, which carries 100,000 vehicles a day.

Quote
"It concerns me,"  says Council member Tom Rasmussen, who chairs the Transportation Committee, "that WSDOT may not be sharing information as quickly as they should."
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on December 11, 2014, 07:19:48 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 11, 2014, 07:15:37 PM
Well, everyone's shitting bricks again:

SeattleWeekly.com: Pessimism Grows Over Tunnel Project; Seattle City Council Is Reaching Wit's End (http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/thedailyweekly/955731-129/pessimism-grows-over-tunnel-project-seattle)
See, this is what happens when you build a city on a bunch of hastily shoveled fill. Any time you do something on one end of the fill, it all starts shifting and flowing and finding a new lowest-energy solution. It's not really the tunnel's fault, though I still don't know why the pipe that killed Bertha wasn't noticed beforehand. More than anything, it's the 19th century engineers who didn't have the geotechnical knowledge we now possess.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 12, 2014, 01:58:55 AM
Quote from: Alps on December 11, 2014, 07:19:48 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 11, 2014, 07:15:37 PM
Well, everyone's shitting bricks again:

SeattleWeekly.com: Pessimism Grows Over Tunnel Project; Seattle City Council Is Reaching Wit's End (http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/thedailyweekly/955731-129/pessimism-grows-over-tunnel-project-seattle)

See, this is what happens when you build a city on a bunch of hastily shoveled fill. Any time you do something on one end of the fill, it all starts shifting and flowing and finding a new lowest-energy solution. It's not really the tunnel's fault, though I still don't know why the pipe that killed Bertha wasn't noticed beforehand. More than anything, it's the 19th century engineers who didn't have the geotechnical knowledge we now possess.

One of my favorite old photos of Seattle sort of sums up the RH Thomson era:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fd%2Fd4%2FDenny_Regrade-1.jpg&hash=82aab505c29cac7efe908acfbc7a6ec393d62378)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: seicer on December 12, 2014, 08:59:17 AM
Whoa. Something I did not know before!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: KEK Inc. on December 12, 2014, 11:22:28 AM
http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/seattle/2014/12/09/cracks-appear-in-buildings-near-bertha/20170195/

Looks like the water pumped for the repair hole is causing more issues for Pioneer Sq.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on December 12, 2014, 11:42:53 AM
When a highway project goes way behind schedule, you know that's a nightmare waiting to happen. Just ask the people in Boston.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on December 12, 2014, 09:10:41 PM
Update: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Contents/Item/Display/2023
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: andy3175 on December 17, 2014, 12:24:19 AM
And more from today ... excavation above Bertha the tunneling machine is scheduled to resume this evening (Tuesday 12/16) after 10 days of investigating why subsidence was occurring to nearby properties and possibly affecting the viaduct ... http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2014/12/16/tunnel-contractor-gets-green-light-to-resume.html

The Washington Post also chimed in with http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/15/seattle-council-hearing-about-cracks-near-tunnel/.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: oscar on December 17, 2014, 02:36:30 AM
Quote from: andy3175 on December 17, 2014, 12:24:19 AM
The Washington Post also chimed in with http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/15/seattle-council-hearing-about-cracks-near-tunnel/.

That's the Washington Times (a/k/a the "Moonie paper"), not the Post.  But it was only carrying an Associated Press story, which will probably show up in other papers too.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: andy3175 on December 18, 2014, 12:24:49 AM
Quote from: oscar on December 17, 2014, 02:36:30 AM
That's the Washington Times (a/k/a the "Moonie paper"), not the Post.  But it was only carrying an Associated Press story, which will probably show up in other papers too.

Thank you for the correction!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 22, 2014, 08:19:11 PM
According to Seattle Tunnel Partners, completion has been pushed to August 2017: WSDOT: Waterfront tunnel opening delayed until Aug. 2017 (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/WSDOT-Waterfront-tunnel-opening-delayed-until-at-least-Aug-2017-286608521.html)

QuoteA new highway tunnel through downtown Seattle won't be open until August 2017, about 20 months behind schedule, state transportation officials said Monday.

QuoteThe contractor, Seattle Tunnel Partners, said it expects to resume tunneling in April.

Quote"Schedule is very important to us," Matt Preedy with the Department of Transportation said in a call with reporters. "At the end of the day, this is a safety job." He added, "The state fully intends to stay the course and complete this job."

QuoteThe August 2017 date is outlined in a monthly schedule the contractor provides to the transportation agency, and it could change again, Preedy said.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on December 23, 2014, 11:20:02 AM
So, Little Dig? Big Dig: West Coast?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on December 23, 2014, 02:40:44 PM
Why aren't I surprised? And this is assuming that Bertha has no further breakdowns, right?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 23, 2014, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: Henry on December 23, 2014, 02:40:44 PM
Why aren't I surprised? And this is assuming that Bertha has no further breakdowns, right?

I hope the 2017 date has some contingency in it, though I find it unlikely.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on December 23, 2014, 08:17:05 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on December 23, 2014, 11:20:02 AM
So, Little Dig? Big Dig: West Coast?
Dig 2: Seattle. The only thing boring is the TBM.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Laura on December 30, 2014, 04:28:18 PM
Question: I read in one of the articles that Bertha does not have the ability to reverse. Is there a reason they didn't give "her" that function? After they fix her, she will still not be able to reverse, correct?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Sub-Urbanite on December 30, 2014, 06:08:34 PM
As Bertha bores, crews are putting the permanent tension rings around the inside of the tunnel. Bertha then uses hydraulics to push off those rings as it moves forward. It's not that Bertha doesn't have a reverse gear, it's that even if it did, it wouldn't have anywhere to go.

Note the concrete already lining the tunnel here.

http://seattletimes.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/today/files/2014/01/image001.jpg
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: qguy on December 31, 2014, 10:44:36 AM
This is true for virtually all TBM operations. In essence, the diameter of the TBM (Bertha or any other) is larger than the interior diameter of the lined tunnel it leaves in its wake. It won't fit in the tunnel behind it, only in the tunnel it carves around itself as it moves forward.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on January 02, 2015, 11:41:34 AM
Quote from: Laura on December 30, 2014, 04:28:18 PM
Question: I read in one of the articles that Bertha does not have the ability to reverse. Is there a reason they didn't give "her" that function? After they fix her, she will still not be able to reverse, correct?
Quote from: qguy on December 31, 2014, 10:44:36 AM
This is true for virtually all TBM operations. In essence, the diameter of the TBM (Bertha or any other) is larger than the interior diameter of the lined tunnel it leaves in its wake. It won't fit in the tunnel behind it, only in the tunnel it carves around itself as it moves forward.
I agree with that assessment! And in addition, I think that the TBM would simply fall apart if they tried to move it backwards.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 09, 2015, 03:46:55 PM
Any ideas what they're gonna name the tunnel when it's finished? Alaskan Way Tunnel?

I propose we name it after the governor who finalized it, Christine O'Grady Gregoire. We can call it the O'Grady Tunnel.

Or, we can name it after the Transport Secretary who also finalized it, Paula Hammond (Paula Hammond Tunnel).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on January 09, 2015, 04:44:39 PM
Or Gregory Nickels, the mayor who pushed for it without a clearcut guarantee that the state would pay for cost overruns.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 09, 2015, 06:24:11 PM
Quote from: kkt on January 09, 2015, 04:44:39 PM
Or Gregory Nickels, the mayor who pushed for it without a clearcut guarantee that the state would pay for cost overruns.

Yes, I can hear it now... Nickelsville... Nickelstunnel... hmm. Kind of gives off the wrong vibe.

For the record, I would never name the tunnel after Gregoire (never liked her).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on January 11, 2015, 12:11:19 PM
You have Edgar Martinez Way, so how about Ichiro Suzuki Drive?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on January 11, 2015, 06:31:43 PM
Edgar Martinez Way Drive. Normally I think ceremonial names are pretty stupid, but I do like Safeco Field being advertised as "on the corner of Edgar and Dave (Niehaus Way)".
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 11, 2015, 06:54:39 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 11, 2015, 06:31:43 PM
Edgar Martinez Way Drive.

No, that's also wrong.

Edgar East Martinez Way Drive

Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 11, 2015, 06:31:43 PM
Normally I think ceremonial names are pretty stupid, but I do like Safeco Field being advertised as "on the corner of Edgar and Dave (Niehaus Way)".

I'll take a name over a number any day (with regards to specific highway features). Though I don't like the ridiculously long ceremonial names, like "Trooper Sean M. O'Connell, Jr. Memorial Bridge". Just call it the "O'Connell Bridge".
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Pete from Boston on January 11, 2015, 07:14:34 PM
Edgar Martinez really has to be a one-way street.  Eight two-way streets, one one-way, then Edgar the other way.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on January 13, 2015, 03:23:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 11, 2015, 06:54:39 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 11, 2015, 06:31:43 PM
Edgar Martinez Way Drive.

No, that's also wrong.

Edgar East Martinez Way Drive

Me hopes you're being facetious, and making a sly convent about the somewhat vague signage on I-5 northbound.

(It's actually Edgar Martinez Drive South. Though for the life of me, I can't understand why it's not South Edgar Martinez Drive. Putting the directional first would make it an east-west "street" instead of a north-south "avenue", which would make sense, since it replaced South Atlantic Street.)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 13, 2015, 05:12:24 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 13, 2015, 03:23:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 11, 2015, 06:54:39 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 11, 2015, 06:31:43 PM
Edgar Martinez Way Drive.

No, that's also wrong.

Edgar East Martinez Way Drive

Me hopes you're being facetious, and making a sly convent about the somewhat vague signage on I-5 northbound.

(It's actually Edgar Martinez Drive South. Though for the life of me, I can't understand why it's not South Edgar Martinez Drive. Putting the directional first would make it an east-west "street" instead of a north-south "avenue", which would make sense, since it replaced South Atlantic Street.)

Yep, never quite understood why "Ed Martinez Dr" was too much:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0mCVC7p.png&hash=726b214309785175fa499d62e177a893cc6ae840)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 26, 2015, 05:31:13 PM
WSDOT posted a couple new photos of the tunnel recently:

Below, we see the future southbound carriageway coming together:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7436/16189283649_8b771dd34d_c.jpg)

And in this photo, you can see the excavation pit:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7299/15752828444_6ee7bd0e5e_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Sub-Urbanite on January 27, 2015, 11:57:36 AM
And now, this:

GOP senators introduce bill to kill Bertha and the tunnel project

Two Republican senators Monday introduced a bill that would shut down the Seattle waterfront tunnel project and examine how to make the Alaskan Way Viaduct a viable alternative.

Proposed by senators from Ferndale and Spokane, the bill would stop spending on the project and tunnel machine Bertha, which stopped in December 2013 after boring only about 1,000 feet of a two-mile long project.


http://blogs.seattletimes.com/politicsnorthwest/2015/01/26/gop-senators-introduce-bill-to-kill-bertha-and-the-tunnel-project/
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on January 27, 2015, 01:11:51 PM
Seems to me that this was doomed from the start...
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: roadfro on January 27, 2015, 09:22:57 PM
The original story has been updated: The bill will not get a hearing in the state senate.


My question to the senators: What do you propose be done with the length of tunnel already constructed? Surely revisiting the viaduct idea would take considerable time and engineering effort, with effort already applied to the tunnel clearly being wasted if their bill went through.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mrsman on January 27, 2015, 10:48:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 26, 2015, 05:31:13 PM
WSDOT posted a couple new photos of the tunnel recently:

Below, we see the future southbound carriageway coming together:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7436/16189283649_8b771dd34d_c.jpg)



Does anyone know what material they are putting on the floor of the tunnel?  It reminds me of linoleum.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on January 28, 2015, 10:10:12 AM
Quote from: roadfro on January 27, 2015, 09:22:57 PM
The original story has been updated: The bill will not get a hearing in the state senate.


My question to the senators: What do you propose be done with the length of tunnel already constructed? Surely revisiting the viaduct idea would take considerable time and engineering effort, with effort already applied to the tunnel clearly being wasted if their bill went through.
Then again, I didn't expect this bill to get through anyway. Finishing the tunnel should remain a top priority.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Vincent on January 28, 2015, 05:11:47 PM
Quote from: mrsman on January 27, 2015, 10:48:23 PM
Does anyone know what material they are putting on the floor of the tunnel?  It reminds me of linoleum.

The shinny part of the floor in that photo is the concrete forms. They'll remove it.

http://www.peri-usa.com/products.cfm/fuseaction/showproduct/sys_id/1002/product_ID/102/app_id/11.cfm
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on January 31, 2015, 04:49:42 PM
Quote from: Vincent on January 28, 2015, 05:11:47 PM
Quote from: mrsman on January 27, 2015, 10:48:23 PM
Does anyone know what material they are putting on the floor of the tunnel?  It reminds me of linoleum.

The shinny part of the floor in that photo is the concrete forms. They'll remove it.

http://www.peri-usa.com/products.cfm/fuseaction/showproduct/sys_id/1002/product_ID/102/app_id/11.cfm (http://www.peri-usa.com/products.cfm/fuseaction/showproduct/sys_id/1002/product_ID/102/app_id/11.cfm)


Actually that is a waterproof membrane, which is used to keep any water that leaks through the road bed from penetrating any further, and allow them to shunt it to drains.  They do it all the time when pouring concrete over a living space on "Hometime".
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 04, 2015, 04:39:51 PM
If the tunnel is completed, it should function like HOT Lanes. Otherwise, it will either be jammed or underutilized.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 04, 2015, 07:04:43 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 04, 2015, 04:39:51 PM
If the tunnel is completed, it should function like HOT Lanes. Otherwise, it will either be jammed or underutilized.

If modern-day traffic levels are anything to go by, there shouldn't be any issues with traffic levels. Remember, there's no exit for downtown from inside the tunnel. All downtown traffic destined for the city center must exit the tunnel beforehand.

Tolling the tunnel after having made the citizens pay for cost over-runs will get city officials run out of town.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on February 04, 2015, 07:14:31 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 04, 2015, 07:04:43 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 04, 2015, 04:39:51 PM
If the tunnel is completed, it should function like HOT Lanes. Otherwise, it will either be jammed or underutilized.

If modern-day traffic levels are anything to go by, there shouldn't be any issues with traffic levels. Remember, there's no exit for downtown from inside the tunnel. All downtown traffic destined for the city center must exit the tunnel beforehand.

Tolling the tunnel after having made the citizens pay for cost over-runs will get city officials run out of town.

They could call it McGinn's Revenge.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 04, 2015, 11:32:53 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 04, 2015, 07:14:31 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 04, 2015, 07:04:43 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 04, 2015, 04:39:51 PM
If the tunnel is completed, it should function like HOT Lanes. Otherwise, it will either be jammed or underutilized.

If modern-day traffic levels are anything to go by, there shouldn't be any issues with traffic levels. Remember, there's no exit for downtown from inside the tunnel. All downtown traffic destined for the city center must exit the tunnel beforehand.

Tolling the tunnel after having made the citizens pay for cost over-runs will get city officials run out of town.

They could call it McGinn's Revenge.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FiW7kxtx.png&hash=d218ca997e837279541e86aef90212e667f63ee4)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: KEK Inc. on February 08, 2015, 04:53:35 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 04, 2015, 07:04:43 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 04, 2015, 04:39:51 PM
If the tunnel is completed, it should function like HOT Lanes. Otherwise, it will either be jammed or underutilized.

If modern-day traffic levels are anything to go by, there shouldn't be any issues with traffic levels. Remember, there's no exit for downtown from inside the tunnel. All downtown traffic destined for the city center must exit the tunnel beforehand.

Tolling the tunnel after having made the citizens pay for cost over-runs will get city officials run out of town.

It's a state highway, and it's already going to be tolled. 
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 09, 2015, 01:59:28 AM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on February 08, 2015, 04:53:35 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 04, 2015, 07:04:43 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 04, 2015, 04:39:51 PM
If the tunnel is completed, it should function like HOT Lanes. Otherwise, it will either be jammed or underutilized.

If modern-day traffic levels are anything to go by, there shouldn't be any issues with traffic levels. Remember, there's no exit for downtown from inside the tunnel. All downtown traffic destined for the city center must exit the tunnel beforehand.

Tolling the tunnel after having made the citizens pay for cost over-runs will get city officials run out of town.

It's a state highway, and it's already going to be tolled.

I didn't know that. I hope Seattleites do.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on February 10, 2015, 10:24:44 PM
Sorry that you were out of the loop, but tolling was always a pretty well publicized part of the plan from the earliest stages.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 10, 2015, 11:33:13 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on February 10, 2015, 10:24:44 PM
Sorry that you were out of the loop, but tolling was always a pretty well publicized part of the plan from the earliest stages.

I'm not sure how I missed it. I feel like a bit of a knob.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on February 11, 2015, 11:49:49 AM
Awww, poor knob. Apologies for any dickishness here or on certain other threads last night.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on April 15, 2015, 11:34:52 PM
I visited Bertha as her cutterhead was being lifted a few weeks ago. Got as close as I could to the construction site.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7596/16823766989_3145fafdbf_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rCEcN6)
Bertha from Alaskan & Jackson (https://flic.kr/p/rCEcN6) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/people/70175722@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: 707 on May 04, 2015, 04:19:55 PM
Okay, I gotta say it. This tunnel was a stupid idea to begin with and has caused nothing but trouble since it was first started. It would have made more sense to renovate and make the Viaduct able to survive an earthquake then to waste millions of dollars on a drill that constantly breaks down, people that do nothing but sit there and point fingers at each other every time a problem occurs, have to remove the cutterhead mid project costing even more money, cause downtown to start sagging into the ground creating even more costs to repair Pioneer Square and going over budget and schedule adding up to a huge debt that will take the city years to pay back. At this point, I'd be surprised if the tunnel ever opens, let alone gets finished.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 04, 2015, 04:51:26 PM
Quote from: 707 on May 04, 2015, 04:19:55 PM
Okay, I gotta say it. This tunnel was a stupid idea to begin with and has caused nothing but trouble since it was first started. It would have made more sense to renovate and make the Viaduct able to survive an earthquake then to waste millions of dollars on a drill that constantly breaks down, people that do nothing but sit there and point fingers at each other every time a problem occurs, have to remove the cutterhead mid project costing even more money, cause downtown to start sagging into the ground creating even more costs to repair Pioneer Square and going over budget and schedule adding up to a huge debt that will take the city years to pay back. At this point, I'd be surprised if the tunnel ever opens, let alone gets finished.

Most megaprojects suffer from cost-overruns and delays. The replacement tunnel is no different. Of course, looking back there might have been better options, but that's kind of the funny thing about humans. We make mistakes, and look back with disdain. BUT, we move forward and make the best of what we have.

Renovating the viaduct would, IMO, be the worst of the options. It would probably be the cheapest, but this project was about more than just the freeway. It's about the waterfront, which right now is hopelessly disconnected from downtown (and is suffering as a result). In the end, the options were basically tunnel or surface street. The state wanted to maintain 99 as a freeway, so the tunnel won.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 04, 2015, 04:53:05 PM
Quote from: 707 on May 04, 2015, 04:19:55 PM
It would have made more sense to renovate and make the Viaduct able to survive an earthquake.

That wouldn't have worked, either. It would have made much more sense to demolish the viaduct, deal with a few years of bad traffic, then open a surface boulevard/plaza like the Embarcadero on the waterfront. We might have saved enough money to actually fund our light rail system...or to rebuild I-5 with park lids and better lane configurations.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on May 04, 2015, 05:04:02 PM
Quote from: Bruce on May 04, 2015, 04:53:05 PM
That wouldn't have worked, either. It would have made much more sense to demolish the viaduct, deal with a few years of bad traffic, then open a surface boulevard/plaza like the Embarcadero on the waterfront. We might have saved enough money to actually fund our light rail system...or to rebuild I-5 with park lids and better lane configurations.

A surface boulevard would be less of a visual barrier, but a lot more of a physical barrier to pedestrians and bicyclists between 1st Ave. and Alaskan Way.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 06, 2015, 07:37:35 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 04, 2015, 05:04:02 PM
Quote from: Bruce on May 04, 2015, 04:53:05 PM
That wouldn't have worked, either. It would have made much more sense to demolish the viaduct, deal with a few years of bad traffic, then open a surface boulevard/plaza like the Embarcadero on the waterfront. We might have saved enough money to actually fund our light rail system...or to rebuild I-5 with park lids and better lane configurations.

A surface boulevard would be less of a visual barrier, but a lot more of a physical barrier to pedestrians and bicyclists between 1st Ave. and Alaskan Way.


At least it's easier to fix than another elevated freeway. You could always quietly give the boulevard a road diet after a few years to avoid public outrage.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on May 11, 2015, 08:03:46 PM
Quote from: Bruce on May 06, 2015, 07:37:35 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 04, 2015, 05:04:02 PM
Quote from: Bruce on May 04, 2015, 04:53:05 PM
That wouldn't have worked, either. It would have made much more sense to demolish the viaduct, deal with a few years of bad traffic, then open a surface boulevard/plaza like the Embarcadero on the waterfront. We might have saved enough money to actually fund our light rail system...or to rebuild I-5 with park lids and better lane configurations.

A surface boulevard would be less of a visual barrier, but a lot more of a physical barrier to pedestrians and bicyclists between 1st Ave. and Alaskan Way.


He's right you know

At least it's easier to fix than another elevated freeway. You could always quietly give the boulevard a road diet after a few years to avoid public outrage.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on May 12, 2015, 03:14:25 PM
I expect that, when the tunnel finally opens, most of us will look back and think that all the alternatives would have been worse than the tunnel.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 12, 2015, 03:27:12 PM
Quote from: mcarling on May 12, 2015, 03:14:25 PM
I expect that, when the tunnel finally opens, most of us will look back and think that all the alternatives would have been worse than the tunnel.

And then we'll look at the final bill and think that we really shouldn't have built the tunnel.

And if an earthquake brings down the viaduct before it's closed and kills people (our other bridge disasters haven't taken a life for a century), we'll get angry at the government for not closing it sooner.

And then we'll still be stuck in traffic and ruing that we didn't build out light rail sooner. At least the view from the freeway is pretty good most of the time; I especially enjoy the view of Seattle from the Ship Canal Bridge during reverse-peak, when the southbound lanes are jammed and the northbound lanes (+ express lanes) are flowing).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 19, 2015, 12:12:11 AM
komonews.com: DOT: Damage to crippled Bertha tunneler worse than first thought (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/DOT-Damage-to-crippled-Bertha-tunneler-more-extensive-than-thought-304148671.html)

QuoteSEATTLE - Damage to the crippled Bertha tunneling machine is more extensive than originally thought, state Department of Transportation officials said Monday.

QuoteThe additional damage was discovered after the massive drilling machine, which stalled underground in December 2013 while digging a replacement tunnel for the Alaska Way Viaduct, was raised back to the surface.

QuoteIn a report to the Seattle City Council, DOT officials said the massive drilling machine's outer seals and the steel retainers that hold them in place are destroyed. There was also damage to the cutter drive motor pinions and the main bearing bull gear.

QuoteSeattle Tunnel Partners, which operates Bertha, is awaiting more replacement parts from the driller's manufacturer in Japan.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on May 19, 2015, 01:22:26 AM
All because of a pipe they neglected to account for.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 19, 2015, 02:16:01 AM
People, as expected, are up in arms and want the tunnel shut down. Then again, what's new? I say keep on digging. All things considered, the tunnel is still the best option. It's just getting harder to convince people of that. Oh well. I mean, very few huge highway projects have ever been well received. Just add this tunnel to the list of things people hated until they used it.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on May 19, 2015, 03:26:02 AM
Hopefully, opposition will wane when Bertha starts boring again.  This far along, anything other than continuing would be insane.

"If you're going through hell, keep going." -- Winston Churchill
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on May 19, 2015, 11:49:16 AM
Quote from: Bickendan on May 19, 2015, 01:22:26 AM
All because of a pipe they neglected to account for.

It's far too early to conclude that.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on May 19, 2015, 12:21:56 PM
Building the Panama Canal wasn't easy either.  Keep on going until the next problem, then solve that problem and keep on going. 

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 19, 2015, 01:58:03 PM
Quote from: mcarling on May 19, 2015, 03:26:02 AM
Hopefully, opposition will wane when Bertha starts boring again.  This far along, anything other than continuing would be insane.

"If you're going through hell, keep going." -- Winston Churchill

Unfortunately, there is a loud and reasonably well-organized cadre of anti-auto/anti-highway activists and self-described transportation experts that are always ready to oppose any and all highway improvement projects - and if something goes wrong during construction (as it has with Bertha), to demand that the project be shut-down or at least delayed for "more study."
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 19, 2015, 02:27:51 PM
Even if there's a few crazies in the anti-Bertha camp, it still is kind of a huge waste of a project. The tunnel will carry less traffic than the old viaduct because it doesn't have downtown exits, which were heavily used by commuters from West Seattle. There's better ways of spending the money that went into this project (reconfiguring I-5 and all of its left exits and the reversible express lanes, funding the last mile of the SR 520 project in Seattle, etc.) that would've benefitted Seattle and its commuters much more.

Also, it's kind of insane that we still have the viaduct open to traffic and carrying significant loads when there's the ever looming possibility of it collapsing in an earthquake and taking out the entire seawall (which is still in the process of being replaced) with it. I for one would not like to be stuck on the viaduct when it comes down.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on May 19, 2015, 03:28:30 PM
That, to me, is the tunnel's biggest flaw: Lack of downtown access. Reconfiguring I-5 would have been a better use of the tunnel's money, but at this point, it'd be foolish not to complete the tunnel. If there were a way to include downtown exits to the tunnel while minimally impacting the buildings or streets, it should be designed and built down the line after the initial tunnel opening, though that would be difficult, particularly since the Seneca and Columbia St ramps worked well with the topography. You could possibly have the onramp facing east at Marion and Western, and the offramp coming up from under the old Seneca onramp.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on May 19, 2015, 03:38:18 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on May 19, 2015, 03:28:30 PM
That, to me, is the tunnel's biggest flaw: Lack of downtown access. Reconfiguring I-5 would have been a better use of the tunnel's money, but at this point, it'd be foolish not to complete the tunnel. If there were a way to include downtown exits to the tunnel while minimally impacting the buildings or streets, it should be designed and built down the line after the initial tunnel opening, though that would be difficult, particularly since the Seneca and Columbia St ramps worked well with the topography. You could possibly have the onramp facing east at Marion and Western, and the offramp coming up from under the old Seneca onramp.

I think the point of the tunnel was to bypass downtown because with only 2 lanes in each direction if it had exits to downtown it would get more traffic and be super-congested. It will have an exit to downtown as the Alaskan way surface street however. The tunnel is for thru motorists not wanting to use I-5. It also bypasses I-90 which could be very congested.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 19, 2015, 03:39:06 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on May 19, 2015, 03:28:30 PM
That, to me, is the tunnel's biggest flaw: Lack of downtown access...If there were a way to include downtown exits to the tunnel while minimally impacting the buildings or streets, it should be designed and built down the line after the initial tunnel opening, though that would be difficult, particularly since the Seneca and Columbia St ramps worked well with the topography. You could possibly have the onramp facing east at Marion and Western, and the offramp coming up from under the old Seneca onramp.
Quote from: Bruce on May 19, 2015, 02:27:51 PM
Even if there's a few crazies in the anti-Bertha camp, it still is kind of a huge waste of a project. The tunnel will carry less traffic than the old viaduct because it doesn't have downtown exits, which were heavily used by commuters from West Seattle. There's better ways of spending the money that went into this project (reconfiguring I-5 and all of its left exits and the reversible express lanes, funding the last mile of the SR 520 project in Seattle, etc.) that would've benefitted Seattle and its commuters much more.

You still have to do something about the viaduct, which has to come down (none of the alternatives allowed keeping the viaduct as-is).

That aside, additional lanes do not inherently increase roadway capacity. Additional infrastructure surrounding the tunnel (such as improved surface streets and well-functioning portals that allow easy ingress and egress from downtown) will be the key in keeping the tunnel from suffering from congestion. Not to mention, the tunnel only exists to funnel traffic from north/south of the city to the opposite end. WSDOT is able to only have two through lanes in each direction because downtown traffic will not use the roadway anymore.

The only place where I sense an issue is that the access to/from Elliott will effectively disappear. I sense that the reconstruction of Mercer is meant to rectify this issue, but I'm playing the waiting game to see how that works out.

Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on May 19, 2015, 03:38:18 PM
I think the point of the tunnel was to bypass downtown because with only 2 lanes in each direction if it had exits to downtown it would get more traffic and be super-congested. It will have an exit to downtown as the Alaskan way surface street however. The tunnel is for thru motorists not wanting to use I-5. It also bypasses I-90 which could be very congested.

Bingo.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on May 19, 2015, 05:47:57 PM
Reconfiguring I-5 downtown would be nice, but it would cost way, way more than the tunnel.  Even with Bertha's problems.  And I-5 isn't going to fall down in the next earthquake, so it's a less urgent problem.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 19, 2015, 08:12:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 19, 2015, 05:47:57 PM
Reconfiguring I-5 downtown would be nice, but it would cost way, way more than the tunnel.  Even with Bertha's problems.  And I-5 isn't going to fall down in the next earthquake, so it's a less urgent problem.

It's better to start the discussion now and let the Seattle process play out before I-5 starts to have visible cracks and other age-related problems. I don't think I-5 will be reconstructed until I reach retirement age, but at the very least we can prevent rushed decisions that will come back to bite us in another 50 years (e.g. the 2-lane northbound thru lanes under the Convention Center).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on May 19, 2015, 08:30:46 PM
Quote from: Bruce on May 19, 2015, 08:12:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 19, 2015, 05:47:57 PM
Reconfiguring I-5 downtown would be nice, but it would cost way, way more than the tunnel.  Even with Bertha's problems.  And I-5 isn't going to fall down in the next earthquake, so it's a less urgent problem.

It's better to start the discussion now and let the Seattle process play out before I-5 starts to have visible cracks and other age-related problems. I don't think I-5 will be reconstructed until I reach retirement age, but at the very least we can prevent rushed decisions that will come back to bite us in another 50 years (e.g. the 2-lane northbound thru lanes under the Convention Center).

The fact that there are only 2 through lanes at the convention center is BAD. For a city the size of Seattle it would need to be at LEAST 3 through lanes if not 4. However with the Seattle process and the tunnels it would be a long process to improve I-5.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Thunderbyrd316 on May 19, 2015, 09:53:47 PM
   I for one am VERY skeptical of claims that the Alaska Way Viaduct was ever in any danger of collapsing in an earthquake. (Just because a freeway is a "double decker" does NOT mean that it will automatically collapse like the Nimitz did in '89. The Nimitz Freeway was in atrocious condition the last time I drove on it in April of 1989, just 6 months before it collapsed. Every section of that roadway was visibly and significantly sagging between each set of supports and I actually commented to my father as we drove along it that "If there is ever an earthquake, this thing is going to fall over."

   I personally believe that the citizens of the Northwest have been duped by the politicians and bureaucrats as they so often are. This whole endeavor was just an excuse to spend wads of tax payer money and eliminate a dated but still functional freeway in favor of a more "politically correct" roadway with lower speed limits, fewer lanes and tolls for those "evil" automobile drivers.

   Consider these facts; Alaska Way Viaduct (as it was before they started messing it up): 6 lanes, 50 m.p.h. speed limit, incredible, tourist worthy views (North Bound) of down town, Olympic Mountains and Puget Sound, historically significant as first truly modern urban freeway in the Northwest, no tolls. New Tunnel: 4 lanes, 40 m.p.h. speed limit, no view of anything, no historic significance, tolls (which will certainly grow just as they have with the Narrows Bridge) that require government tracking of your vehicle and massive expense to the tax payers.   
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on May 19, 2015, 10:08:49 PM
Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on May 19, 2015, 09:53:47 PM
   I for one am VERY skeptical of claims that the Alaska Way Viaduct was ever in any danger of collapsing in an earthquake. (Just because a freeway is a "double decker" does NOT mean that it will automatically collapse like the Nimitz did in '89. The Nimitz Freeway was in atrocious condition the last time I drove on it in April of 1989, just 6 months before it collapsed. Every section of that roadway was visibly and significantly sagging between each set of supports and I actually commented to my father as we drove along it that "If there is ever an earthquake, this thing is going to fall over."

   I personally believe that the citizens of the Northwest have been duped by the politicians and bureaucrats as they so often are. This whole endeavor was just an excuse to spend wads of tax payer money and eliminate a dated but still functional freeway in favor of a more "politically correct" roadway with lower speed limits, fewer lanes and tolls for those "evil" automobile drivers.

   Consider these facts; Alaska Way Viaduct (as it was before they started messing it up): 6 lanes, 50 m.p.h. speed limit, incredible, tourist worthy views (North Bound) of down town, Olympic Mountains and Puget Sound, historically significant as first truly modern urban freeway in the Northwest, no tolls. New Tunnel: 4 lanes, 40 m.p.h. speed limit, no view of anything, no historic significance, tolls (which will certainly grow just as they have with the Narrows Bridge) that require government tracking of your vehicle and massive expense to the tax payers.   

Well the viaduct was actually causing the waterfront to suffer plus it had no shoulders. Besides the tunnel bypasses downtown so the smaller amount of lanes isn't too bad. Additionally the viaduct was actually dated.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 19, 2015, 10:37:54 PM
Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on May 19, 2015, 08:30:46 PM
The fact that there are only 2 through lanes at the convention center is BAD. For a city the size of Seattle it would need to be at LEAST 3 through lanes if not 4. However with the Seattle process and the tunnels it would be a long process to improve I-5.

I would probably steal a lane from the C/D lane and make the reversible express lanes into a two-way HOV 3+ expressway (possibly tolled to pay for all of this). That should help a little bit without a significant amount of construction.

Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on May 19, 2015, 09:53:47 PM
   I personally believe that the citizens of the Northwest have been duped by the politicians and bureaucrats as they so often are. This whole endeavor was just an excuse to spend wads of tax payer money and eliminate a dated but still functional freeway in favor of a more "politically correct" roadway with lower speed limits, fewer lanes and tolls for those "evil" automobile drivers.

   Consider these facts; Alaska Way Viaduct (as it was before they started messing it up): 6 lanes, 50 m.p.h. speed limit, incredible, tourist worthy views (North Bound) of down town, Olympic Mountains and Puget Sound, historically significant as first truly modern urban freeway in the Northwest, no tolls. New Tunnel: 4 lanes, 40 m.p.h. speed limit, no view of anything, no historic significance, tolls (which will certainly grow just as they have with the Narrows Bridge) that require government tracking of your vehicle and massive expense to the tax payers.   

The viaduct is in no way historically significant and preservable. I say that as a roadgeek and an amateur historian. It would be much better to have a nice pedestrian-oriented plaza on the waterfront than to keep and continually rehabilitate the viaduct, which serves as a giant wall between downtown and her waterfront.

The "tourist worthy views" (which you can't stop and appreciate, so what's the point?) are not dissimilar to those found from CenturyLink Field, around King Street Station, and on the Seattle Great Wheel. We have plenty of public viewpoints from the north and south, so it's not worth saving.

The tunnel does have historical significance already, with the entire Bertha debacle now etched into the fabric that is Seattle's transportation woes. It's hard to argue that the viaduct has any more, especially prior to its opening.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on May 19, 2015, 10:44:14 PM
Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on May 19, 2015, 09:53:47 PM
   I for one am VERY skeptical of claims that the Alaska Way Viaduct was ever in any danger of collapsing in an earthquake. (Just because a freeway is a "double decker" does NOT mean that it will automatically collapse like the Nimitz did in '89. The Nimitz Freeway was in atrocious condition the last time I drove on it in April of 1989, just 6 months before it collapsed. Every section of that roadway was visibly and significantly sagging between each set of supports and I actually commented to my father as we drove along it that "If there is ever an earthquake, this thing is going to fall over."

WashDOT reports the Viaduct's sinkage rate every six months.  Highlights from March:  two new cracks in columns.  Additional 1/8 to 1/4 inch of settling near Seneca St., in addition to the 1/16 settling as of last October.

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2015/04/07/more-cracks-detected-in-alaskan-way-viaduct.html

While WashDOT says it's still safe for everday use, I don't think they're exagerating the need to replace it sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on May 19, 2015, 11:33:44 PM
Plus, if memory serves, the viaduct did suffer some damage in the Nisquilly Quake.
While I'll be sad when the Alaskan finally gets torn down, I think it is time.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 20, 2015, 12:02:46 AM
Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on May 19, 2015, 09:53:47 PM
New Tunnel: 4 lanes, 40 m.p.h. speed limit, no view of anything, no historic significance, tolls (which will certainly grow just as they have with the Narrows Bridge) that require government tracking of your vehicle and massive expense to the tax payers.   

Four Lanes: Not as much traffic will be using the tunnel as before, you don't need eight lanes (though it was mostly six lanes anyways).
40 MPH Speed Limit: This has not been decided to my knowledge -- source?
No View: Fair enough. But an opened waterfront without the viaduct will be a thing of beauty in and of itself.
No Historic Significance: Not necessary for a successful highway project???
Tolls and other conspiracy theories: Highway funding has changed drastically in the last 60 years -- the government doesn't just step in every time we need a new freeway
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on May 20, 2015, 01:17:12 AM
Views for people whose eyes should be on the road is not as important as views for people whose feet are on the ground.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: myosh_tino on May 20, 2015, 02:03:31 PM
Quote from: Thunderbyrd316 on May 19, 2015, 09:53:47 PM
The Nimitz Freeway was in atrocious condition the last time I drove on it in April of 1989, just 6 months before it collapsed. Every section of that roadway was visibly and significantly sagging between each set of supports

I don't ever recall seeing portions of the Cypress Structure sagging between support columns granted it's been 25+ years since any of us drove that portion of I-880.

What do remember about the collapse was the fact that, the upper deck collapsed onto the lower deck but, for the most part, the lower deck did not collapse to the ground.  I also remember that studies into the collapse focused on the design of the support columns between the upper and lower decks of the freeway.  I made this drawing for a different thread on these forums...

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markyville.com%2Faaroads%2FcypressCollapse.jpg&hash=516229b6e026bea80f905d582be8bd90910588f9)

You'll notice the tapered nature of the support column (wide at the top, narrow at the bottom).  The Loma Prieta Earthquake shook the freeway horizontally causing the columns to shear at the bottom which caused them the splay outward...

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F8%2F86%2F022srUSGSCyprusVia.jpg&hash=4285b8cf27dc279fe2f162f6bbdfdd736f75b95e)

While it may be entirely possible there was some sagging of the upper deck, I am still of the belief that the the lateral movement during the quake coupled with what I would call a design flaw in the support columns is what caused the collapse.  I don't think the Cypress Structure was in "atrocious" condition.  Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on May 20, 2015, 03:59:17 PM
Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on May 19, 2015, 08:30:46 PM
Quote from: Bruce on May 19, 2015, 08:12:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 19, 2015, 05:47:57 PM
Reconfiguring I-5 downtown would be nice, but it would cost way, way more than the tunnel.  Even with Bertha's problems.  And I-5 isn't going to fall down in the next earthquake, so it's a less urgent problem.
It's better to start the discussion now and let the Seattle process play out before I-5 starts to have visible cracks and other age-related problems. I don't think I-5 will be reconstructed until I reach retirement age, but at the very least we can prevent rushed decisions that will come back to bite us in another 50 years (e.g. the 2-lane northbound thru lanes under the Convention Center).
The fact that there are only 2 through lanes at the convention center is BAD. For a city the size of Seattle it would need to be at LEAST 3 through lanes if not 4. However with the Seattle process and the tunnels it would be a long process to improve I-5.

The 2-lane stretch is less than ideal, but the backups are usually worse between WA 520 and Mercer St. in my experience.  The Convention Center segment would be very expensive to fix -- expensive real estate and difficult construction on both sides.  The Mercer Weave has a better chance of getting fixed in my lifetime.  The land around it is merely expensive, instead of hideously expensive.

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 20, 2015, 04:18:51 PM
Ah, the Mercer weave. It seems as if it was originally built as a stopgap between the completion of SR 520 and the proposed construction of the Bay Freeway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Freeway_(Seattle)) on Mercer Street (which was cancelled in 1972). Ideally, we'd demolish the SR 520 interchange and reconfigure it to have right-side ramps, but that would be costly and disruptive to the drivers using it.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 20, 2015, 05:13:39 PM
Quote from: Bruce on May 20, 2015, 04:18:51 PM
Ah, the Mercer weave. It seems as if it was originally built as a stopgap between the completion of SR 520 and the proposed construction of the Bay Freeway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Freeway_(Seattle)) on Mercer Street (which was cancelled in 1972). Ideally, we'd demolish the SR 520 interchange and reconfigure it to have right-side ramps, but that would be costly and disruptive to the drivers using it.

That would help SB I-5 drivers, but those going from Mercer to 520 East still need to merge over 4 lanes since the merge is also on the left. That would also need reconstructing. I believe this is called the 520 Shuffle.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 03, 2015, 07:18:58 PM
Has there been any updates on when/if construction on the tunnel will resume?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on July 08, 2015, 12:07:53 PM
As soon as Bertha is fixed, then construction shall continue.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on July 08, 2015, 02:18:37 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 03, 2015, 07:18:58 PM
Has there been any updates on when/if construction on the tunnel will resume?

The tunnel boring is certainly not proceeding ATM due to Bertha (and as Henry said, once she's fixed, the tunneling will resume), but the construction involving everything else (north and south portals, the part of the tunnel already dug) is still proceeding.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: 707 on July 10, 2015, 01:35:46 AM
Suppose once the maintenance is completed, Bertha breaks down yet again? Is there any possibility of the tunnel being outright cancelled along its full length and being replaced by a surface boulevard partway?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on July 10, 2015, 02:33:57 AM
Quote from: 707 on July 10, 2015, 01:35:46 AM
Suppose once the maintenance is completed, Bertha breaks down yet again? Is there any possibility of the tunnel being outright cancelled along its full length and being replaced by a surface boulevard partway?

No. That would be way too expensive.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on July 10, 2015, 02:37:39 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 10, 2015, 02:33:57 AM
Quote from: 707 on July 10, 2015, 01:35:46 AM
Suppose once the maintenance is completed, Bertha breaks down yet again? Is there any possibility of the tunnel being outright cancelled along its full length and being replaced by a surface boulevard partway?
No. That would be way too expensive.

As opposed to rescuing Bertha again if she breaks down somewhere we can't just dig straight down?  Like under a building?  Could easily have happened...
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on July 10, 2015, 02:39:12 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 10, 2015, 02:37:39 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 10, 2015, 02:33:57 AM
Quote from: 707 on July 10, 2015, 01:35:46 AM
Suppose once the maintenance is completed, Bertha breaks down yet again? Is there any possibility of the tunnel being outright cancelled along its full length and being replaced by a surface boulevard partway?
No. That would be way too expensive.

As opposed to rescuing Bertha again if she breaks down somewhere we can't just dig straight down?  Like under a building?  Could easily have happened...
The tunnel route goes right under parts of Pike Place Market, which would make it unreachable.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: intelati49 on July 10, 2015, 08:46:45 AM
Just read through the entire thread... HFS I didn't realize it was that bad. Big Dig 2.0 for sure.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on July 10, 2015, 08:17:50 PM
Quote from: Bruce on July 10, 2015, 02:39:12 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 10, 2015, 02:37:39 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 10, 2015, 02:33:57 AM
Quote from: 707 on July 10, 2015, 01:35:46 AM
Suppose once the maintenance is completed, Bertha breaks down yet again? Is there any possibility of the tunnel being outright cancelled along its full length and being replaced by a surface boulevard partway?

No. That would be way too expensive.

As opposed to rescuing Bertha again if she breaks down somewhere we can't just dig straight down?  Like under a building?  Could easily have happened...

The tunnel route goes right under parts of Pike Place Market, which would make it unreachable.

Bertha didn't break down. She hit a pipe (a collision is not considered a break down, AFAIC). As long as they don't hit any more fucking pipes, she'll make it (as every tunnel-boring machine before her has managed to do).

Could she fall apart under Pike Place Market? Yeah, probably. But chances are slim. And even if it did, I bet they could figure out a way to get to her. I mean, they don't have to replace the head unless it gets all f'ed up again.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on July 10, 2015, 08:38:15 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 10, 2015, 08:17:50 PM
Bertha didn't break down. She hit a pipe (a collision is not considered a break down, AFAIC).

We don't know that.  The only people who know what happened aren't talking, until the inevitable lawsuit.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on July 10, 2015, 09:05:29 PM
Quote from: kkt on July 10, 2015, 08:38:15 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 10, 2015, 08:17:50 PM
Bertha didn't break down. She hit a pipe (a collision is not considered a break down, AFAIC).

We don't know that.  The only people who know what happened aren't talking, until the inevitable lawsuit.

So you're saying that the pipe collision coincides with the machine breaking down?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on July 10, 2015, 10:58:49 PM
Quote from: kkt on July 10, 2015, 08:38:15 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 10, 2015, 08:17:50 PM
Bertha didn't break down. She hit a pipe (a collision is not considered a break down, AFAIC).

We don't know that.  The only people who know what happened aren't talking, until the inevitable lawsuit.

Yeah, well, that's smart of them. Better to piss off curious people than say the wrong thing (or the right thing the wrong way) and go on record.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on July 26, 2015, 09:49:11 PM
Took the Milepost 31 tour (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Tours) recently and took some pictures of our $3 billion mega-tunnel project (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/) at three locations, with a few panoramas mixed in. Enjoy.

Re-posted from my photos thread.

SR 99 Tour viewing platform

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3686/19595696370_23d2e76261_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/vRB4PY)
Bertha TBM model at Milepost 31 (https://flic.kr/p/vRB4PY) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/346/19788471021_4b7898da77_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/w9D61R)
SR 99 Tunnel rendering on a wall inside Milepost 31 (https://flic.kr/p/w9D61R) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/437/19162782573_39899091ca_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/vcmgCZ)
SR 99 Tunnel south portal site (https://flic.kr/p/vcmgCZ) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/544/19757500736_c916ff5963_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/w6UmCq)
SR 99 Tunnel south portal (https://flic.kr/p/w6UmCq) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/528/19597054139_172375f2d6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/vRJ2rM)
Alaskan Way Viaduct bypass underside (https://flic.kr/p/vRJ2rM) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/259/19596800899_9944b9d788_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/vRGJaz)
SR 99 Tour viewing platform panorama (https://flic.kr/p/vRGJaz) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

Bertha TBM retrieval and repair

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/353/19783697185_fd48f83669_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/w9dBVk)
Bertha TBM retrieval site shed (https://flic.kr/p/w9dBVk) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3739/19776417422_7410b6c8af_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/w8ziUb)
Bertha TBM retrieval site crane (https://flic.kr/p/w8ziUb) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3801/19161091834_c3bbd3b91f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/vccB3j)
Bertha TBM gutted at retrieval site (https://flic.kr/p/vccB3j) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/346/19597087549_b220fd3828_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/vRJcnP)
Bertha's shed, the viaduct and RapidRide (https://flic.kr/p/vRJcnP) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/302/19161088794_59a55e4a16_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/vccA8U)
Bertha TBM retrieval site shed (https://flic.kr/p/vccA8U) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3740/19757523226_fea31f016c_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/w6Utjb)
Bertha TBM retrieval site (https://flic.kr/p/w6Utjb) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

South Atlantic Street overpass

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/453/19595551580_dd99fbe9b5_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/vRAjMA)
SR 99 Tunnel south portal (https://flic.kr/p/vRAjMA) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/527/19757393096_4e2d4b331c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/w6TNCy)
SR 99 Tunnel south portal (https://flic.kr/p/w6TNCy) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3799/19596957599_23e242d9fd_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/vRHwKi)
SR 99 Tunnel south portal from Atlantic Street (https://flic.kr/p/vRHwKi) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/371/19160998444_12c6275f37_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/vcc8h9)
SR 99 Tunnel south portal and Seattle skyline from Atlantic Street (https://flic.kr/p/vcc8h9) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/280/19160992234_abca1558f0_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/vcc6r5)
SR 99 Tunnel south portal from Atlantic Street (https://flic.kr/p/vcc6r5) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/413/19776115522_43c7d13d60_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/w8xLa1)
Seattle skyline from Atlantic Street (https://flic.kr/p/w8xLa1) by SounderBruce (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 10, 2015, 05:26:05 PM
Has construction restarted yet?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 10, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 10, 2015, 05:26:05 PM
Has construction restarted yet?

It's very close to starting again (relatively speaking). All the necessary bits are back in the hole ready to be re-assembled.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: noelbotevera on September 10, 2015, 09:07:17 PM
Already there's a problem with restarting. Where's the money? We can't do this Big Dig style, it's either leave the structure to rest or just give up and gap WA 99 through Seattle. Three billion dollars is a problem to raise. It's wonderful how other cities raise billions of dollars.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: AlexandriaVA on September 10, 2015, 09:24:14 PM
This is truly one of the great American road projects presently going on right now, and it's getting very little attention on the East Coast. I think that the delays and hangups are understandable. It's not like we're talking about laying down a new surface road on flat farmland. You're talking about hydrographic, geologic, and urban issues all affecting the project.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Rothman on September 10, 2015, 11:08:39 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 10, 2015, 09:07:17 PM
Already there's a problem with restarting. Where's the money? We can't do this Big Dig style, it's either leave the structure to rest or just give up and gap WA 99 through Seattle. Three billion dollars is a problem to raise. It's wonderful how other cities raise billions of dollars.

Pfft.  The federal funds were authorized before the project was let.  They'll be spending more money, but the planning for setting up the funds was probably started a couple years ago.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on September 24, 2015, 02:20:00 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 10, 2015, 09:07:17 PM
Already there's a problem with restarting. Where's the money? We can't do this Big Dig style, it's either leave the structure to rest or just give up and gap WA 99 through Seattle. Three billion dollars is a problem to raise. It's wonderful how other cities raise billions of dollars.
Neither is an option; the determination is already there to finish the tunnel, no matter how far behind schedule and over budget it may get.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: seicer on December 19, 2015, 01:12:39 AM
Any, um, progress?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 19, 2015, 01:15:59 AM
Quote from: Sherman Cahal on December 19, 2015, 01:12:39 AM
Any, um, progress?

There's progress every day, it's just not always visible.

Tunneling should resume this Monday, the 21st: http://q13fox.com/2015/12/18/bertha-to-resume-digging-seattle-tunnel-monday/

The portals on either end of the tunnel are still under construction as well. Their construction never shut down.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 19, 2015, 05:24:06 PM
Tunneling estimates got pushed back from late November to "by December 24".

The access/recovery pit is being filled with sand for the machine to bore through. One of the arms had a small issue that got fixed.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 19, 2015, 08:07:03 PM
What is the new estimated completion date, if there is one?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 19, 2015, 09:12:35 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 19, 2015, 08:07:03 PM
What is the new estimated completion date, if there is one?

August 2018.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on December 19, 2015, 11:53:17 PM
August 2018 for the road to open, not for completion of tunnel boring, right?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 20, 2015, 12:31:55 AM
Quote from: mcarling on December 19, 2015, 11:53:17 PM
August 2018 for the road to open, not for completion of tunnel boring, right?

Sorry, but I have to...

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Frue1t.gif&hash=659acb88f593dc5b6841fa03b2b79eb83d8f9af5)

The tunnel boring has to be complete for the road to open, so August 2018 is the final, all good-to-go date.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: davewiecking on December 20, 2015, 12:44:14 AM
When is the tunnel boring work scheduled to be completed, having nothing to do with construction of the roadbed, installation of the utilities, etc, etc.? Sheesh.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 20, 2015, 02:16:28 AM
Quote from: davewiecking on December 20, 2015, 12:44:14 AM
When is the tunnel boring work scheduled to be completed, having nothing to do with construction of the roadbed, installation of the utilities, etc, etc.? Sheesh.

Not sure if the timeline gets that exact. The WSDOT timeline shows TBD for most of the unfinished business: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Schedule
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: davewiecking on December 20, 2015, 09:07:06 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 20, 2015, 02:16:28 AM
Not sure if the timeline gets that exact. The WSDOT timeline shows TBD for most of the unfinished business: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Schedule
Good link. Buried beyond it: "Noteworthy dates not show on the critical-path schedule: March 2016: Tunnel under viaduct; January 2017: Complete tunneling."

(Edited to add another interesting link: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/About/FollowBertha)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 20, 2015, 01:17:20 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on December 20, 2015, 09:07:06 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 20, 2015, 02:16:28 AM
Not sure if the timeline gets that exact. The WSDOT timeline shows TBD for most of the unfinished business: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Schedule
Good link. Buried beyond it: "Noteworthy dates not show on the critical-path schedule: March 2016: Tunnel under viaduct; January 2017: Complete tunneling."

I knew I should have clicked one of those schedule links.

Quote from: davewiecking on December 20, 2015, 09:07:06 AM
(Edited to add another interesting link: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/About/FollowBertha)

That's a great website. They update it a lot.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on December 21, 2015, 01:29:25 AM
Thank you davewiecking!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on December 21, 2015, 01:34:26 PM
And it looks like they should get back to work now! I find it quite a coincidence that they're scheduled to continue digging on the same date that will go down in history as an event that never occurred three years ago, like the Mayans once said it would.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: NE2 on December 21, 2015, 02:09:37 PM
Quote from: Henry on December 21, 2015, 01:34:26 PM
And it looks like they should get back to work now! I find it quite a coincidence that they're scheduled to continue digging on the same date that will go down in history as an event that never occurred three years ago, like the Mayans once said it would.
what the fuck
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Rothman on December 22, 2015, 02:33:21 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 21, 2015, 02:09:37 PM
Quote from: Henry on December 21, 2015, 01:34:26 PM
And it looks like they should get back to work now! I find it quite a coincidence that they're scheduled to continue digging on the same date that will go down in history as an event that never occurred three years ago, like the Mayans once said it would.
what the fuck

I got it.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 22, 2015, 06:31:59 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 22, 2015, 02:33:21 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 21, 2015, 02:09:37 PM
Quote from: Henry on December 21, 2015, 01:34:26 PM
And it looks like they should get back to work now! I find it quite a coincidence that they're scheduled to continue digging on the same date that will go down in history as an event that never occurred three years ago, like the Mayans once said it would.

what the fuck

I got it.

I think I got it as well, but a follow-up would be nice.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 22, 2015, 07:11:00 PM
18 whole inches in 2 years. What progress!

I moved that much in my sleep last night. Probably more.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: noelbotevera on December 22, 2015, 07:18:32 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 22, 2015, 07:11:00 PM
18 whole inches in 2 years. What progress!

I moved that much in my sleep last night. Probably more.
Now let's see if they get 20 inches in ten years!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 22, 2015, 08:32:25 PM
Also, when the machine is planned to cross under the viaduct in March, the latter will have to close for two weeks. It's going to be a great time to get pictures of the empty viaduct! And the resulting traffic at each end!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on December 22, 2015, 10:37:49 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on December 22, 2015, 07:18:32 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 22, 2015, 07:11:00 PM
18 whole inches in 2 years. What progress!

I moved that much in my sleep last night. Probably more.
Now let's see if they get 20 inches in ten years!
These are what she said.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on December 22, 2015, 10:38:17 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 22, 2015, 08:32:25 PM
Also, when the machine is planned to cross under the viaduct in March, the latter will have to close for two weeks. It's going to be a great time to get pictures of the empty viaduct! And the resulting traffic at each end!
Given the tone of this thread - how many months do you think the viaduct will actually have to be closed? ;)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 22, 2015, 10:50:59 PM
Quote from: Alps on December 22, 2015, 10:38:17 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 22, 2015, 08:32:25 PM
Also, when the machine is planned to cross under the viaduct in March, the latter will have to close for two weeks. It's going to be a great time to get pictures of the empty viaduct! And the resulting traffic at each end!
Given the tone of this thread - how many months do you think the viaduct will actually have to be closed? ;)

4 months beginning in August or something. Or Bertha gets stuck under the viaduct and shuts the thing down permanently, since recovery (even if not via pit and from the back of the machine) could send the thing tumbling down with thousands of commuters.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 23, 2015, 03:50:15 AM
Something tells me that Bertha won't have any more problems. STP has had two whole years to re-scan the proposed path. If there's something else they didn't see, and this thing gets stuck again, the people of Seattle will probably set fire to the construction site, because mob justice.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: noelbotevera on December 23, 2015, 09:16:15 AM
You know, my opinion is that this project is long overdue. How does Bertha get stuck in a tunnel bore? How long has it been going on? Why have only a foot and half been completed over two years?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 23, 2015, 01:36:08 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on December 23, 2015, 09:16:15 AM
You know, my opinion is that this project is long overdue. How does Bertha get stuck in a tunnel bore? How long has it been going on? Why have only a foot and half been completed over two years?

Bertha got stuck, apparently, because of a pipe. The machine's cutters weren't able to cut through the metal pipe. The machine has been inoperable for about two years. Only this Monday was the machine finally able to bore again. It only moved a foot and a half because STP only wanted to move it that far, so they could lay another concrete ring around the exterior of the tunnel. The workers are on holiday break now. Normal boring is expected soon (you don't want to go full-boat right out of the gate and break something else).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: NE2 on December 23, 2015, 02:25:58 PM
Bertha is boring.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 23, 2015, 04:50:52 PM
Here's a question for my fellow AARoads posters: Are there any other existing freeways (elevated, double-decked, or otherwise) that you believe should be replaced with a tunnel? We can dispense with the details of making it happen (costs, likelihood, etc.)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on December 23, 2015, 04:51:50 PM
I haven't been able to check a detailed map of this tunnel's routing, but does it have to pass over or under BNSF's ex GN mainline tunnel, too?

:hmmm:

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on December 23, 2015, 04:54:55 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 23, 2015, 04:50:52 PM
Here's a question for my fellow AARoads posters: Are there any other existing freeways (elevated, double-decked, or otherwise) that you believe should be replaced with a tunnel? We can dispense with the details of making it happen (costs, likelihood, etc.)

Money being no object, IMHO I-278 through/around downtown Brooklyn, NYC would be a prime candidate for replacement with a tunnel (Gowanus to BQE 'straight shot').

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 23, 2015, 05:12:36 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 23, 2015, 04:51:50 PM
I haven't been able to check a detailed map of this tunnel's routing, but does it have to pass over or under BNSF's ex GN mainline tunnel, too?

:hmmm:

Mike

It passes where under the Great Northern Tunnel near Pike Place Market, which is at the northern end of that 100-year-old tunnel.

Speaking of, it really needs to be replaced sometime soon. The current plan in the event of an oil train fire is to seal it off and let it burn, which is not acceptable when it's also used by passenger services. It's unlit, has no escapes, no safe havens, and no firefighting equipment.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 23, 2015, 05:56:24 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 23, 2015, 05:12:36 PM
Speaking of, it really needs to be replaced sometime soon. The current plan in the event of an oil train fire is to seal it off and let it burn, which is not acceptable when it's also used by passenger services. It's unlit, has no escapes, no safe havens, and no firefighting equipment.

I wonder how we could go about replacing that tunnel? A secondary bore would be necessary just as a detour, but I think they could rebuild the GNT as well, and have two bores under the city. I'm not sure if four rail lines is overkill this day in age, but I get the feeling this new HSR line that WSDOT is building might boost train ridership.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 23, 2015, 07:28:16 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 23, 2015, 05:56:24 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 23, 2015, 05:12:36 PM
Speaking of, it really needs to be replaced sometime soon. The current plan in the event of an oil train fire is to seal it off and let it burn, which is not acceptable when it's also used by passenger services. It's unlit, has no escapes, no safe havens, and no firefighting equipment.

I wonder how we could go about replacing that tunnel? A secondary bore would be necessary just as a detour, but I think they could rebuild the GNT as well, and have two bores under the city. I'm not sure if four rail lines is overkill this day in age, but I get the feeling this new HSR line that WSDOT is building might boost train ridership.

I'd hope that a second bore is built to handle all traffic while the original is rebuilt (with cross-passages between the two). All with room for HSR and electric centenary as well so it can be installed easily and with minimal closures in the near future.

I don't see BNSF fronting the money, though, so there's not a good chance it will ever be done.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 23, 2015, 07:42:42 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 23, 2015, 07:28:16 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 23, 2015, 05:56:24 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 23, 2015, 05:12:36 PM
Speaking of, it really needs to be replaced sometime soon. The current plan in the event of an oil train fire is to seal it off and let it burn, which is not acceptable when it's also used by passenger services. It's unlit, has no escapes, no safe havens, and no firefighting equipment.

I wonder how we could go about replacing that tunnel? A secondary bore would be necessary just as a detour, but I think they could rebuild the GNT as well, and have two bores under the city. I'm not sure if four rail lines is overkill this day in age, but I get the feeling this new HSR line that WSDOT is building might boost train ridership.

I'd hope that a second bore is built to handle all traffic while the original is rebuilt (with cross-passages between the two). All with room for HSR and electric centenary as well so it can be installed easily and with minimal closures in the near future.

I don't see BNSF fronting the money, though, so there's not a good chance it will ever be done.

More than likely not. The tunnel has an impeccable safety record as-is. The only reason for a rebuild/replacement would be as a result of the tunnel losing its "grandfathered" status. I could see this happening in the future if a similar tunnel has an insane accident (along the lines of the Mont Blanc disaster), and the regulatory group responsible decides to end the grandfather system.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on December 23, 2015, 08:56:55 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 23, 2015, 04:50:52 PM
Here's a question for my fellow AARoads posters: Are there any other existing freeways (elevated, double-decked, or otherwise) that you believe should be replaced with a tunnel? We can dispense with the details of making it happen (costs, likelihood, etc.)
The Interstate Bridge on I-5 between Portland, OR and Vancouver, WA needs to be replaced with something.  There is a clearance constraint below for shipping traffic and a clearance constraint above for PDX flight traffic which together don't leave much space for a bridge.  Tunnel boring might be an option.  It would certainly make the airport and the shipping companies happy.  With a need for five lanes in each direction, that would require two double-stacked bores (probably two full-height lanes below for trucks and buses and three limited-height lanes above for cars).  Bore diameter would be similar to Bertha's.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Rothman on December 23, 2015, 11:39:09 PM
Quote from: mcarling on December 23, 2015, 08:56:55 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 23, 2015, 04:50:52 PM
Here's a question for my fellow AARoads posters: Are there any other existing freeways (elevated, double-decked, or otherwise) that you believe should be replaced with a tunnel? We can dispense with the details of making it happen (costs, likelihood, etc.)
The Interstate Bridge on I-5 between Portland, OR and Vancouver, WA needs to be replaced with something.  There is a clearance constraint below for shipping traffic and a clearance constraint above for PDX flight traffic which together don't leave much space for a bridge.  Tunnel boring might be an option.  It would certainly make the airport and the shipping companies happy.  With a need for five lanes in each direction, that would require two double-stacked bores (probably two full-height lanes below for trucks and buses and three limited-height lanes above for cars).  Bore diameter would be similar to Bertha's.

Dear heavens.  Tunnels that size would never be built in that area.  The cost would simply be too prohibitive.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on December 24, 2015, 12:33:26 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 23, 2015, 04:50:52 PM
Here's a question for my fellow AARoads posters: Are there any other existing freeways (elevated, double-decked, or otherwise) that you believe should be replaced with a tunnel? We can dispense with the details of making it happen (costs, likelihood, etc.)
Yes. But that would belong in Fictional Highways.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on December 24, 2015, 02:38:53 AM
Quote from: Alps on December 24, 2015, 12:33:26 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 23, 2015, 04:50:52 PM
Here's a question for my fellow AARoads posters: Are there any other existing freeways (elevated, double-decked, or otherwise) that you believe should be replaced with a tunnel? We can dispense with the details of making it happen (costs, likelihood, etc.)
Yes. But that would belong in Fictional Highways.
Really???  Speculative upgrades to "existing freeways" belong in Fictional Highways?   :hmmm:
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on December 24, 2015, 02:49:52 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 23, 2015, 11:39:09 PM
Quote from: mcarling on December 23, 2015, 08:56:55 PM
The Interstate Bridge on I-5 between Portland, OR and Vancouver, WA needs to be replaced with something.  There is a clearance constraint below for shipping traffic and a clearance constraint above for PDX flight traffic which together don't leave much space for a bridge.  Tunnel boring might be an option.  It would certainly make the airport and the shipping companies happy.  With a need for five lanes in each direction, that would require two double-stacked bores (probably two full-height lanes below for trucks and buses and three limited-height lanes above for cars).  Bore diameter would be similar to Bertha's.

Dear heavens.  Tunnels that size would never be built in that area.  The cost would simply be too prohibitive.
The cost of tunnel boring continues to decline.  The TBMs are becoming more efficient, more capable, more automated, etc.  So the labor costs are going down as the crews get smaller and the overhauls become less frequent.

The Interstate Bridge is either going to be replaced by a new bridge or by a tunnel, sooner or later.  The cost of a bridge that would be useable following a major Cascadia Subduction Quake might exceed the cost of tunnels.  One TBM could bore the northbound replacement tunnel (the existing northbound span is older and narrower than the southbound span) and then turn around and bore the southbound tunnel.

I cannot think of any existing roadway in the Pacific Northwest in greater need of a tunnel, though there may be several or many that I'm unaware of.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 24, 2015, 03:39:16 AM
Quote from: mcarling on December 24, 2015, 02:38:53 AM
Really???  Speculative upgrades to "existing freeways" belong in Fictional Highways?

Anything speculative should go in fictional highways.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 24, 2015, 04:06:50 AM
Here's a video from WSDOT demonstrating how the exterior concrete ring is constructed:

https://youtu.be/XQxtJb4fbdY

As well, here's another video (from WSDOT) showing the filling of the access pit:

https://youtu.be/YF-dJiG9YLI

There's also one more video (from WSDOT -- surprise!) showing the parts of the tunnel not related to Bertha:

https://youtu.be/qaEvjXhxHOQ
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Rothman on December 24, 2015, 07:53:14 AM
Quote from: mcarling on December 24, 2015, 02:49:52 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 23, 2015, 11:39:09 PM
Quote from: mcarling on December 23, 2015, 08:56:55 PM
The Interstate Bridge on I-5 between Portland, OR and Vancouver, WA needs to be replaced with something.  There is a clearance constraint below for shipping traffic and a clearance constraint above for PDX flight traffic which together don't leave much space for a bridge.  Tunnel boring might be an option.  It would certainly make the airport and the shipping companies happy.  With a need for five lanes in each direction, that would require two double-stacked bores (probably two full-height lanes below for trucks and buses and three limited-height lanes above for cars).  Bore diameter would be similar to Bertha's.

Dear heavens.  Tunnels that size would never be built in that area.  The cost would simply be too prohibitive.
The cost of tunnel boring continues to decline.  The TBMs are becoming more efficient, more capable, more automated, etc.  So the labor costs are going down as the crews get smaller and the overhauls become less frequent. 

Yeah, but cost reductions from billions to fewer billions doesn't matter much.  What's incredible to me is that ever since the Big Dig -- which had a wide variety of critics -- tunnel proposals have popped up with greater frequency. 

I've had opportunity to be more informed than most on the tunnel alternative for the I-81 viaduct in Syracuse, for example.  Although the alternative is being thoroughly considered due to political pressures, the result is the same:  The cost of tunnels is still in the range of adjectives like "ludicrous," "absurd," or "idiotic" and projects like the Seattle project are only pursued when there's immense political will for such, which is rare.

Also remember that there were some well-intentioned but ignorant boosters for a tunnel option to the Tappan Zee Bridge.  Again, ridiculously high cost estimates killed that idea fairly quickly.

Anyway, tunnels are attractive in a Jetson-flying-car kind of way.  However, reality always brings things back above ground.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 24, 2015, 12:58:50 PM
The next big hurdle for Bertha:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1588/23639057560_d320c32d49_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/C1UmeW)The next leg in Bertha's journey (https://flic.kr/p/C1UmeW) by Washington State Dept of Transportation (https://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/), on Flickr

QuoteThis rendering shows the path that Bertha, the SR 99 tunneling machine, will take from the pit where she was repaired to an underground maintenance stop 450 feet to the north. After moving the machine forward 8 feet in late December 2015, Seattle Tunnel Partners, the SR 99 tunnel contractor, was preparing to tunnel toward the maintenance area beginning in January 2016.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: english si on December 24, 2015, 01:39:32 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 22, 2015, 08:32:25 PMAlso, when the machine is planned to cross under the viaduct in March, the latter will have to close for two weeks.
Is the viaduct that unstable? I thought Seattle was an earthquake-prone area and ought to cope with underground disturbances like a TBM passing under it - even with Bertha being big and heavy. Or is it boring through the foundations (dangerous)?

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3files.core77.com%2Fblog%2Fimages%2F2015%2F01%2FCrossrail_Planning_Jan15_3.jpg&hash=61bf5e15b9d179538224dc1f497e9a2ff93d9249)
Crossrail sent one of it's TBMs through a gap between an escalator bank and platforms with a vertical gap about 4ft (1'2" above, 2'10" below) more than the tunnel diameter. They put someone one each platform to keep an eye on things and some high tech stuff to measure vibrations and so on, but they left both things open and 900 tons passed through 'the eye of a needle' without any bother. They didn't expect travellers to notice (and hoped they didn't), though when the platform was empty you could hear it. watch this to see it go through. (https://youtu.be/42-lJ2y6ddQ?t=53m)

---

Both the Big Dig, and the issues with this scheme, will create an impediment to more road tunnels replacing old viaducts. That said, Stockholm and Oslo have recently built a lot, and London has looked into it (the big issues being cost and many people's pathalogical dislike of spending money on roads, meaning that it is politically easier to replace a rotting concrete viaduct with a new concrete viaduct, rather than build a long tunnel and get the extra benefits wrt severance, air quality, etc) to replace life-expired elevated structures.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 24, 2015, 02:39:40 PM
Quote from: english si on December 24, 2015, 01:39:32 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 22, 2015, 08:32:25 PMAlso, when the machine is planned to cross under the viaduct in March, the latter will have to close for two weeks.

Is the viaduct that unstable? I thought Seattle was an earthquake-prone area and ought to cope with underground disturbances like a TBM passing under it - even with Bertha being big and heavy. Or is it boring through the foundations (dangerous)?

In short, yes, the viaduct is very unstable. There are a couple of problems at the moment:

1) The 2001 Nisqually earthquake beat the shit out of it. Though it was repaired, its stability in the long run was compromised.

1 a) As a result of the 2001 quake, another good "shaking" could do serious, irreperable damage.

2) The land that the viaduct sits on is fill. It's not very stable. It's good material for a tunnel because (as I understand it) the tunnel is able to move with the land as it shakes, but things above it liquify and fall apart. The waterfront of Seattle is also being completely rebuilt to handle earthquakes because of how unstable the current situation is, even without the viaduct.

2 a) Due to the nature of the fill, the viaduct continues to settle, exacerbating the situation (by further compromising the integrity of the structure).

3) The viaduct wasn't built to withstand big shakings. I'm not sure what the maximum magnitude is before the viaduct would come crashing down, but I know it wouldn't last through "the big one". It was built during a period of poor earthquake research (supposedly).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 24, 2015, 02:40:24 PM
Quote from: english si on December 24, 2015, 01:39:32 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 22, 2015, 08:32:25 PMAlso, when the machine is planned to cross under the viaduct in March, the latter will have to close for two weeks.
Is the viaduct that unstable? I thought Seattle was an earthquake-prone area and ought to cope with underground disturbances like a TBM passing under it - even with Bertha being big and heavy. Or is it boring through the foundations (dangerous)?

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3files.core77.com%2Fblog%2Fimages%2F2015%2F01%2FCrossrail_Planning_Jan15_3.jpg&hash=61bf5e15b9d179538224dc1f497e9a2ff93d9249)
Crossrail sent one of it's TBMs through a gap between an escalator bank and platforms with a vertical gap about 4ft (1'2" above, 2'10" below) more than the tunnel diameter. They put someone one each platform to keep an eye on things and some high tech stuff to measure vibrations and so on, but they left both things open and 900 tons passed through 'the eye of a needle' without any bother. They didn't expect travellers to notice (and hoped they didn't), though when the platform was empty you could hear it. watch this to see it go through. (https://youtu.be/42-lJ2y6ddQ?t=53m)

---

Both the Big Dig, and the issues with this scheme, will create an impediment to more road tunnels replacing old viaducts. That said, Stockholm and Oslo have recently built a lot, and London has looked into it (the big issues being cost and many people's pathalogical dislike of spending money on roads, meaning that it is politically easier to replace a rotting concrete viaduct with a new concrete viaduct, rather than build a long tunnel and get the extra benefits wrt severance, air quality, etc) to replace life-expired elevated structures.

The viaduct is very unstable, especially since it was damaged in the 2001 earthquake. During the digging of the recovery pit for Bertha, it sank 1.2 inches (http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/viaduct-sinks-an-inch-as-workers-dig-to-repair-bertha/) and caused quite a bit of concern.

The main reason for the closure is for WSDOT to monitor the viaduct's condition (vibrations mostly) without interference from traffic.

London has the distinct advantage of better soil conditions than our waterfront, which is mostly fill from the regrading of our hills (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regrading_in_Seattle).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 24, 2015, 02:47:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 24, 2015, 07:53:14 AM
The cost of tunnels is still in the range of adjectives like "ludicrous," "absurd," or "idiotic" and projects like the Seattle project are only pursued when there's immense political will for such, which is rare.

I bet tunnels will become more common in the future. People just don't like the look of freeways. All over Seattle, there are numerous lidding projects (including another proposed right in downtown Seattle) to cover up freeways to provide additional green space. The fact is, people like the function that freeways provide, but only the engineers among us can appreciate their beauty.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Rothman on December 24, 2015, 03:10:15 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2015, 02:47:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 24, 2015, 07:53:14 AM
The cost of tunnels is still in the range of adjectives like "ludicrous," "absurd," or "idiotic" and projects like the Seattle project are only pursued when there's immense political will for such, which is rare.

I bet tunnels will become more common in the future. People just don't like the look of freeways. All over Seattle, there are numerous lidding projects (including another proposed right in downtown Seattle) to cover up freeways to provide additional green space. The fact is, people like the function that freeways provide, but only the engineers among us can appreciate their beauty.

The public appreciates not paying for tunnels more than they do tunnels.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 24, 2015, 03:54:25 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 24, 2015, 03:10:15 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2015, 02:47:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 24, 2015, 07:53:14 AM
The cost of tunnels is still in the range of adjectives like "ludicrous," "absurd," or "idiotic" and projects like the Seattle project are only pursued when there's immense political will for such, which is rare.

I bet tunnels will become more common in the future. People just don't like the look of freeways. All over Seattle, there are numerous lidding projects (including another proposed right in downtown Seattle) to cover up freeways to provide additional green space. The fact is, people like the function that freeways provide, but only the engineers among us can appreciate their beauty.

The public appreciates not paying for tunnels more than they do tunnels.

That's for a cost/benefit analysis to decide.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on December 24, 2015, 09:54:16 PM
More than half of the North-South Expressway now in preliminary construction in Singapore will be underground.  My understanding is that TBMs will not be used i.e. the tunneling method will be cut-and-cover.  The two short "semi-tunnel" sections are expected to be lidded in the future.

http://www.lta.gov.sg/data/apps/news/press/2011/NSE%20Annex%20A.pdf
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on December 26, 2015, 10:58:45 AM
The original proposal for the tunnels was cut and cover the entire distance, under the roadway known as "Alaskan Way".  This project would have used the new, side-by-side tunnels as a new seawall as well.  The cap would then be used as a new roadway for Alaskan Way.


The thing I am confused about is why WSDOT went with the largest TBM ever to build a double decker tunnel, instead of two smaller tunnels side-by-side.  It just seems odd to get a custom build, single use machine, for that purpose, when alternatives would be much cheaper, and reusable.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on December 27, 2015, 05:40:17 AM
All TBMs sized for twin multi-lane tunnels are also custom built for the variety of soil conditions expected to be encountered along their path.  However, there may have been some components that would have been off-the-shelf that had to be custom fabricated for Bertha.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: noelbotevera on December 27, 2015, 09:53:55 AM
Another thing that's even more questionable is: why destroy Bertha? It can be used for another projects that require tunneling like this, but if you will turn it into scrap, why build it in the first place, if you'll destroy it for its first job.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on December 27, 2015, 11:53:09 AM
At the end of a project like this, a TBM is not in great condition.  To be used again, it needs a major overhaul.  The cost of extraction, overhaul, and transportation to new site add up to something near the cost of a new TBM.  Again, as I wrote above, TBMs (except, as of several years ago, some smaller than 1 meter in diameter) are all custom designed to match the expected combination of soil conditions.  TBMs are substantially different for hard rock, soft rock, clay, sand, etc.  So, for all these reasons, and because reliability is so important, there is no market for used TBMs.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on December 27, 2015, 06:14:58 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on December 27, 2015, 09:53:55 AM
Another thing that's even more questionable is: why destroy Bertha? It can be used for another projects that require tunneling like this, but if you will turn it into scrap, why build it in the first place, if you'll destroy it for its first job.

mcarling explained it more thoroughly, but the short answer is no, it can't.  TBMs are, except in rare circumstances, one use only.  Individual parts can be re-used or recycled, but the machine as a whole is useless upon completion of the project.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on December 27, 2015, 06:45:05 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on December 27, 2015, 06:14:58 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on December 27, 2015, 09:53:55 AM
Another thing that's even more questionable is: why destroy Bertha? It can be used for another projects that require tunneling like this, but if you will turn it into scrap, why build it in the first place, if you'll destroy it for its first job.

mcarling explained it more thoroughly, but the short answer is no, it can't.  TBMs are, except in rare circumstances, one use only.  Individual parts can be re-used or recycled, but the machine as a whole is useless upon completion of the project.

I remember in articles from when the English Channel Tunnel was built, a couple of the TBMs were purposely driven off-course at the completion of their tasks and entombed in the chalk-marl under the Channel.

----------------

Also, before BNSF's ex GN tunnel was built, the original GN used street trackage on Alaskan Way, much like in Jack London Square on Oakland, CA.

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on December 29, 2015, 02:52:14 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on December 27, 2015, 06:14:58 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on December 27, 2015, 09:53:55 AM
Another thing that's even more questionable is: why destroy Bertha? It can be used for another projects that require tunneling like this, but if you will turn it into scrap, why build it in the first place, if you'll destroy it for its first job.

mcarling explained it more thoroughly, but the short answer is no, it can't.  TBMs are, except in rare circumstances, one use only.  Individual parts can be re-used or recycled, but the machine as a whole is useless upon completion of the project.


Which is odd, give that Sound Transit is using the same machines for their tunnels from Capitol Hill to the U District, and onward to Northgate (at least that is how the articles have been written to indicate).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on December 30, 2015, 06:26:00 AM
It's not odd at all.  It's the same project, with the same requirements, the same or similar soil conditions, and no need for disassembly, transport, and reassembly.  Metro projects often overhaul a TBM when it reaches a station box and then continue on to the next station box.  Once the metro line is finished, then the TBM is typically buried (though some parts are typically salvaged first).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 04, 2016, 11:09:20 PM
Bertha lurches forward another 6.5 feet (http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/tunnel-machine-bertha-expected-to-bust-out-of-vault-this-week/) and is poised to break out of its repair vault this week.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on January 05, 2016, 01:28:32 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 04, 2016, 11:09:20 PM
Bertha lurches forward another 6.5 feet (http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/tunnel-machine-bertha-expected-to-bust-out-of-vault-this-week/) and is poised to break out of its repair vault this week.

Is Vegas taking odds on completing the rest of the tunnel without further delays?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 05, 2016, 04:09:43 PM
Quote from: kkt on January 05, 2016, 01:28:32 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 04, 2016, 11:09:20 PM
Bertha lurches forward another 6.5 feet (http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/tunnel-machine-bertha-expected-to-bust-out-of-vault-this-week/) and is poised to break out of its repair vault this week.

Is Vegas taking odds on completing the rest of the tunnel without further delays?


Not yet, but there is an office pool on Reddit predicting where the next breakdown will be: https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/3xwzs9/reddit_office_pool_on_how_far_bertha_makes_it/
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 05, 2016, 04:28:17 PM
Jokes aside, does it really have to break down again? I know, given the past two years, this sounds a little crazy, but I don't think it'll break down again. This is a critical time for Bertha -- she can't really get dug out again (not easily, at least). I get the feeling that WSDOT and STP have been doing their homework to prevent another issue.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: noelbotevera on January 05, 2016, 04:35:45 PM
Quote from WSDOT:

"Bertha has 450 feet to go before reaching what's being called "Safe Haven 3." Where they do one more checkup on the machine before sending her along her way. It's approximately 7,300 feet to the finish from there."

Thanks to Bruce, it was in the reddit pool.

If a person gets it correct, WSDOT will give that person a tour of the tunnel (actual WSDOT comment)

Another 8180.5 feet to go with Bertha.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on January 06, 2016, 10:53:02 AM
According to the article, 1,098 of the 9,270-foot project, or 11.8%, has already been bored through; although it's not exactly great progress since the project started, at least it's started moving forward once again. April 2018 is now the projected completion date for the tunnel, provided no further problems with Bertha or otherwise.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 06, 2016, 03:02:13 PM
Why do I have the feeling that date is optimistic?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: noelbotevera on January 06, 2016, 03:42:00 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 06, 2016, 03:02:13 PM
Why do I have the feeling that date is optimistic?
As long as it reaches Safe Haven 3. If it does make it there without breaking down, I'd say the date would come true. If everything is inspected properly, it does seem probable.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 06, 2016, 04:19:01 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 06, 2016, 03:02:13 PM
Why do I have the feeling that date is optimistic?

It's already like three years late. I'm just happy with a date.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on January 06, 2016, 07:22:34 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 06, 2016, 04:19:01 PM
I'm just happy with a date.
Story of AARoads.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TravelingBethelite on January 06, 2016, 07:50:35 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 06, 2016, 07:22:34 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 06, 2016, 04:19:01 PM
I'm just happy with a date with a highway engineer.
Story of AARoads.

FTFY.   :bigass:
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on January 06, 2016, 09:34:25 PM
If the history is TBMs is any indication, it is very unlikely that Bertha would have to be extracted again.  Most TBM repairs are made in situ.  Bertha has received a complete overhaul, with many improvements, over the last two years.  Unless she runs into another major obstruction, such as another large pipe, we probably won't see a need for any repairs more serious than replacement of cutting teeth and such.  It would not be surprising if we see Bertha shut down for a week or so for a minor overhaul of the cutting head, but I will be surprised if we see anything much more significant.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 07, 2016, 06:31:37 PM
Bertha has left the access/recovery pit (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Contents/Item/Display/2627) and hit real dirt for the first time in 2 years.

Since the machine restarted on December 22, Bertha has move 73 feet and installed 12 rings.

WSDOT released a video showing Bertha operations in various places, including the control room and the conveyor belt for debris:



Also, the Reddit betting pool made Bloomberg Businessweek (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-06/bertha-the-giant-drill-is-ready-to-rumble-in-seattle).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 07, 2016, 08:11:44 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 07, 2016, 06:31:37 PM
WSDOT released a video showing Bertha operations in various places, including the control room and the conveyor belt for debris:

Nice to get a look inside. The machine looks like it's from Fallout or something (particularly between :48 and :55).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on January 08, 2016, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 07, 2016, 08:11:44 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 07, 2016, 06:31:37 PM
WSDOT released a video showing Bertha operations in various places, including the control room and the conveyor belt for debris:

Nice to get a look inside. The machine looks like it's from Fallout or something (particularly between :48 and :55).
Yes, it is interesting to see what happens to the excavated material. The end of the video has www.alaskanwayviaduct.org as the project website, but the link somehow redirects to a WSDOT page.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 08, 2016, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: Henry on January 08, 2016, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 07, 2016, 08:11:44 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 07, 2016, 06:31:37 PM
WSDOT released a video showing Bertha operations in various places, including the control room and the conveyor belt for debris:

Nice to get a look inside. The machine looks like it's from Fallout or something (particularly between :48 and :55).

Yes, it is interesting to see what happens to the excavated material. The end of the video has www.alaskanwayviaduct.org as the project website, but the link somehow redirects to a WSDOT page.

I think the idea with the 'www.alaskanwayviaduct.org' link is simply to redirect people to the WSDOT site (the WSDOT link is too long to remember).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Pete from Boston on January 09, 2016, 01:13:55 AM

Quote from: Kacie Jane on December 27, 2015, 06:14:58 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on December 27, 2015, 09:53:55 AM
Another thing that's even more questionable is: why destroy Bertha? It can be used for another projects that require tunneling like this, but if you will turn it into scrap, why build it in the first place, if you'll destroy it for its first job.

mcarling explained it more thoroughly, but the short answer is no, it can't.  TBMs are, except in rare circumstances, one use only.  Individual parts can be re-used or recycled, but the machine as a whole is useless upon completion of the project.

Of course the listings are mostly just a sea of vagary, but searching Alibaba for used tunnel boring machines is a fun exercise:

http://m.alibaba.com/product/60315109883/used-tunnel-boring-machine.html?spm=a2706.7843667.1998817010.7.1aEtCW#

China seems to be a wild west of second-hand massive construction equipment.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on January 11, 2016, 11:40:46 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 08, 2016, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: Henry on January 08, 2016, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 07, 2016, 08:11:44 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 07, 2016, 06:31:37 PM
WSDOT released a video showing Bertha operations in various places, including the control room and the conveyor belt for debris:

Nice to get a look inside. The machine looks like it's from Fallout or something (particularly between :48 and :55).

Yes, it is interesting to see what happens to the excavated material. The end of the video has www.alaskanwayviaduct.org as the project website, but the link somehow redirects to a WSDOT page.

I think the idea with the 'www.alaskanwayviaduct.org' link is simply to redirect people to the WSDOT site (the WSDOT link is too long to remember).
Maybe you're right.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on January 11, 2016, 03:32:56 PM
Knowing Alibaba, they actually have a listing with a picture of the actual Big Bertha and are trying to sell it.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 11, 2016, 08:14:11 PM
Quote from: ARMOURERERIC on January 11, 2016, 03:32:56 PM
Knowing Alibaba, they actually have a listing with a picture of the actual Big Bertha and are trying to sell it.

Too bad Alibaba can't ship to Washington state.

Someday they'll open their US offices here and fix that policy...
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 13, 2016, 02:06:04 AM
Excavation has halted once again...and it's not even Bertha's fault this time!

A barge carrying excavated dirt tipped over in Elliott Bay and managed to damage a dock at the port's Terminal 46.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/bertha-stops-digging-again-but-this-time-its-because-of-a-barge/
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 13, 2016, 04:28:58 PM
Why am I not surprised?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 13, 2016, 05:32:08 PM
The Times asked some psychics (http://www.seattletimes.com/life/lifestyle/will-the-seahawks-win-the-superbowl-will-bertha-work-the-psychics-know/) to predict Bertha's perils for 2016 a week ago (before the barge stoppage). Here's what they had to say:

Quote
Bertha

Todo, whose practice involves clearing out negative energy and focusing on the positive, is alone in predicting that problems with Bertha – the tunnel-digging behemoth that's been stalled for two years – are over.

"She's not going to get stuck again,"  she said.

The more interesting question about Bertha, for her, concerns the "deep ancestral roots of the city"  that Bertha is cutting through. Todo believes there will be some major artifact uncovered and also see ties to the city's Asian, Native-American and Italian forbears.

Because there is "no going back"  from the tunnel plan now, she advises everyone invested in the region's well-being to stop sending messages of doubt and fear and instead think about "moving forward."

René Aceves, a Tarot card reader and astrologer who can be found at Gargoyles Statuary in the University District, has a different forecast after doing the city's horoscope.

"The underground tunnel could continue to be plagued by problems,"  he said in a telephone interview this week. He sees issues with flooding and decay.

Two seers indicated the tunnel-drilling saga may resolve in unexpected ways.

Melissa Peil of Mystical Awakenings (cited as one of the Top 50 Psychics in the U.S.) said the project is salvageable, but "It's going to take a little bit of a different direction than originally projected."
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 13, 2016, 05:38:53 PM
Something tells me that, if the tunnel hadn't been in the public's eye for the last two years, this wouldn't have even made the news. It's a minor issue at most. The only reason Bertha stopped digging was to "make sure" things are good. She isn't stuck. She's just waiting.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 13, 2016, 07:52:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 13, 2016, 05:38:53 PM
Something tells me that, if the tunnel hadn't been in the public's eye for the last two years, this wouldn't have even made the news. It's a minor issue at most. The only reason Bertha stopped digging was to "make sure" things are good. She isn't stuck. She's just waiting.

I think a loose barge hitting one of the port's piers is probably a bit newsworthy on its own. Adding Bertha makes it a headline story.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 13, 2016, 08:03:14 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 13, 2016, 07:52:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 13, 2016, 05:38:53 PM
Something tells me that, if the tunnel hadn't been in the public's eye for the last two years, this wouldn't have even made the news. It's a minor issue at most. The only reason Bertha stopped digging was to "make sure" things are good. She isn't stuck. She's just waiting.

I think a loose barge hitting one of the port's piers is probably a bit newsworthy on its own. Adding Bertha makes it a headline story.

Sorry, I misspoke. Any barge tipping would have made the news. The "Bertha" bit would not have made it onto the headline however. I would imagine the alternative headline would have been "Tunnel barge tips in Elliott Bay; Pier inspections begin", and the story would have included a line like "tunnel boring has been suspended while inspections continue".
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 14, 2016, 03:07:34 PM
Governor Inslee has suspended tunneling operations (http://goo.gl/10p334) until safety can be "guaranteed":

Quote
Gov. Jay Inslee said Thursday he has ordered a halt of tunneling for the new State Route 99 after a sinkhole formed behind the boring machine, Bertha.

"Seriously disappointed,"  Inslee told reporters.

Inslee said he is ordering tunnel contractor Seattle Tunnel Partners to stop drilling until safety can be guaranteed.

I think this move is more symbolic than anything. I would explain more, but it starts getting political.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: noelbotevera on January 14, 2016, 03:46:14 PM
Right, at this point, why not just simply maintain the Alaskan Way Viaduct for the next 50 years. Added bonus, the US 99 sign will also stay the longer the viaduct is kept.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 14, 2016, 04:15:45 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on January 14, 2016, 03:46:14 PM
Right, at this point, why not just simply maintain the Alaskan Way Viaduct for the next 50 years. Added bonus, the US 99 sign will also stay the longer the viaduct is kept.

I'm pretty sure the governor signed a bill a number of years ago which made it, more or less, illegal to do nothing (citing safety concerns with the current viaduct).

This is a minor bump; there will be more. By the time the news media even knew about the sinkhole yesterday, it had been filled in.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2016, 05:11:30 PM
If it had been known it would be this difficult to construct a tunnel in Seattle, maybe they should have just reconstructed the existing viaduct instead.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 14, 2016, 05:18:51 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 14, 2016, 05:11:30 PM
If it had been known it would be this difficult to construct a tunnel in Seattle, maybe they should have just reconstructed the existing viaduct instead.

The problem with the viaduct is more than just its dilapidated state. It's like a huge wall between downtown Seattle and the waterfront. Part of the reason for sinking the freeway below ground was to remove that wall, thus making the waterfront appear more attractive to tourists in downtown, and vice-versa. Currently, the areas around the viaduct are dirty, dark, and not very inviting. Seattle has the potential to have a great waterfront, but the viaduct has to go.

My point being, no matter the trouble it takes, the viaduct (hell, any elevated freeway) has to go.

Seattle residents are talking about lidding over the 5 freeway on the east side of downtown, to reconnect two "disconnected" areas of the city. Freeways are more than just a physical barrier -- they're psychological as well.

What they could have done was build the freeway below-grade, and lid over it in parts, and then build a large hill on the north-side of the Alaskan Way to reconnect it to a rebuilt Battery Street Tunnel. My guess is that was studied, however, and turned down for various engineering reasons.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on January 14, 2016, 05:37:45 PM
About lidding I-5, that's an article in the Stranger, and it's brought up periodically... unfortunately the time to demand expensive concessions like lids is before construction begins, not 50 years later.  Doing it now, the State will be looking at god knows how much the final bill for the 99 tunnel, escalating sanctions from the Supreme Court regarding McCleary, and voters outside the I-5 corridor unwilling to accept increased taxes for anything.

If someday there's a consensus to do something about I-5 narrowing to 2 lanes each way under the convention center, taking more land on the sides in the process, then perhaps the city can demand lidding.  My kid will probably have grandkids by then.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 14, 2016, 09:18:37 PM
An I-5 lid would be a great addition to the eventual rebuilding of that freeway in the next 50 or so years.

There is no way anyone would want to have kept or rebuilt the viaduct. The tunnel will be borderline useless to anyone who used the viaduct anyway, so there's no point in delaying the inevitable closure and demolition.

Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Rothman on January 15, 2016, 08:38:09 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 14, 2016, 09:18:37 PM
Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

How would you add grade-separated transit?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 15, 2016, 04:10:56 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 15, 2016, 08:38:09 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 14, 2016, 09:18:37 PM
Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

How would you add grade-separated transit?

By handing over some money to Sound Transit to build their proposed light rail extensions to Ballard and West Seattle (detailed list here (http://soundtransit3.org/Media/Default/Document%20Library%20Featured/December_2015/CentralCandidateProjects_2015.pdf)) that is going on the ballot in November anyway. In the interim, I'd extend bus-only lanes on 15th Avenue (towards Ballard) and the West Seattle Bridge/SR 99 (towards West Seattle) and boost RapidRide frequencies on those corridors.

Losing the viaduct for a few years while it's demolished and replaced by a surface boulevard (which everyone isn't too happy about...especially the pedestrian and bike groups, since the Port is demanding an 8-lane highway near the ferry terminals) will be painful, but it's a lot better than gambling lives on the viaduct when the next earthquake comes.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: roadfro on January 23, 2016, 01:44:33 PM
More trouble...

Inslee orders tunnel dig halted as soil sinks above Bertha (http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/inslee-orders-bertha-tunneling-stopped-after-sinkhole-forms/)
The Seattle Times, 1/14/2016
Quote
Gov. Jay Inslee ordered Highway 99 tunnel contractors Thursday to suspend drilling the deep-bore tunnel along the Seattle waterfront, until a sinkhole that formed this week is fully investigated.

Even though contractors filled the hole, the ground above the tunnel-boring machine Bertha is continuing to sink, according to the Washington State Department of Transportation (WSDOT).

The problem is limited to the area immediately around the machine, and has not spread to the nearby Alaskan Way Viaduct, said WSDOT spokeswoman Laura Newborn.

But in calling for the work to stop, the governor aired the worry shared by many citizens – that if Seattle Tunnel Partners (STP) continues to dig too much soil as Bertha proceeds north, the viaduct and downtown buildings could be threatened.


Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 23, 2016, 09:18:46 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 23, 2016, 01:44:33 PM
More trouble...

Inslee orders tunnel dig halted as soil sinks above Bertha (http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/inslee-orders-bertha-tunneling-stopped-after-sinkhole-forms/)

Already reported: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12173.msg2119725#msg2119725
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: roadfro on January 23, 2016, 10:08:39 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 23, 2016, 09:18:46 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 23, 2016, 01:44:33 PM
More trouble...

Inslee orders tunnel dig halted as soil sinks above Bertha (http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/inslee-orders-bertha-tunneling-stopped-after-sinkhole-forms/)

Already reported: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12173.msg2119725#msg2119725

Hmm... Must've put that post out of my mind...
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on January 24, 2016, 12:27:50 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 14, 2016, 09:18:37 PM
An I-5 lid would be a great addition to the eventual rebuilding of that freeway in the next 50 or so years.

There is no way anyone would want to have kept or rebuilt the viaduct. The tunnel will be borderline useless to anyone who used the viaduct anyway, so there's no point in delaying the inevitable closure and demolition.

Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

To be honest, I'm kind of with you on your disclaimer at this point, though I wasn't until relatively recently.  The only group of people that the viaduct is absolutely essential for is commuters from West Seattle, and that could be solved with significant transit investments.  The biggest problem however is that West Seattle is so spread out that it's tough to serve with transit (particularly mass rapid transit, i.e. light rail) efficiently.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 24, 2016, 03:29:14 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 24, 2016, 12:27:50 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 14, 2016, 09:18:37 PM
An I-5 lid would be a great addition to the eventual rebuilding of that freeway in the next 50 or so years.

There is no way anyone would want to have kept or rebuilt the viaduct. The tunnel will be borderline useless to anyone who used the viaduct anyway, so there's no point in delaying the inevitable closure and demolition.

Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

To be honest, I'm kind of with you on your disclaimer at this point, though I wasn't until relatively recently.  The only group of people that the viaduct is absolutely essential for is commuters from West Seattle, and that could be solved with significant transit investments.  The biggest problem however is that West Seattle is so spread out that it's tough to serve with transit (particularly mass rapid transit, i.e. light rail) efficiently.

I remember reading somewhere that the Alaskan Way Viaduct is an important link for the Port of Seattle to points north, and vice-versa, and that a tunnel would keep heavy trucks off of the surface street. Is this true?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 24, 2016, 03:30:47 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 24, 2016, 12:27:50 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 14, 2016, 09:18:37 PM
An I-5 lid would be a great addition to the eventual rebuilding of that freeway in the next 50 or so years.

There is no way anyone would want to have kept or rebuilt the viaduct. The tunnel will be borderline useless to anyone who used the viaduct anyway, so there's no point in delaying the inevitable closure and demolition.

Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

To be honest, I'm kind of with you on your disclaimer at this point, though I wasn't until relatively recently.  The only group of people that the viaduct is absolutely essential for is commuters from West Seattle, and that could be solved with significant transit investments.  The biggest problem however is that West Seattle is so spread out that it's tough to serve with transit (particularly mass rapid transit, i.e. light rail) efficiently.

That is the multi-billion dollar question: how to serve the different nodes of West Seattle effectively. Personally, I'd prefer a short light rail line up to Alaska Junction and then several branching BRT routes (with actual BRT features, e.g. exclusive lane, signal priority, limited stops, pre-boarding payment) to serve different areas of the peninsula. Perhaps ST4 could then extend the light rail line further south if demand is high enough on those bus lines.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on January 24, 2016, 07:26:32 PM
Jake, you're not wrong. I wouldn't call the viaduct "unimportant" for Port traffic.  But I wouldn't call it "absolutely essential" either.  Especially because the Port might actually be served better by a good surface solution than the tunnel, since (1) it would allow hazmats, and (2) it would allow access to Western/Elliot/15th, not just Aurora.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 24, 2016, 07:49:35 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 24, 2016, 07:26:32 PM
Jake, you're not wrong. I wouldn't call the viaduct "unimportant" for Port traffic.  But I wouldn't call it "absolutely essential" either.  Especially because the Port might actually be served better by a good surface solution than the tunnel, since (1) it would allow hazmats, and (2) it would allow access to Western/Elliot/15th, not just Aurora.

Very good points. My only remaining concern is a rather selfish one: will the waterfront be as inviting with all the semi trucks? I suppose it won't be a mess of trucks, but certainly a noticeable amount more so than if the tunnel existed.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on January 24, 2016, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 24, 2016, 03:29:14 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 24, 2016, 12:27:50 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 14, 2016, 09:18:37 PM
An I-5 lid would be a great addition to the eventual rebuilding of that freeway in the next 50 or so years.

There is no way anyone would want to have kept or rebuilt the viaduct. The tunnel will be borderline useless to anyone who used the viaduct anyway, so there's no point in delaying the inevitable closure and demolition.

Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

To be honest, I'm kind of with you on your disclaimer at this point, though I wasn't until relatively recently.  The only group of people that the viaduct is absolutely essential for is commuters from West Seattle, and that could be solved with significant transit investments.  The biggest problem however is that West Seattle is so spread out that it's tough to serve with transit (particularly mass rapid transit, i.e. light rail) efficiently.

I remember reading somewhere that the Alaskan Way Viaduct is an important link for the Port of Seattle to points north, and vice-versa, and that a tunnel would keep heavy trucks off of the surface street. Is this true?

Yes, at least I don't know the traffic count but a lot of trucks go to and from the ship terminals on Harbor Island and if they're heading north of Seattle it's easier for them to get on the Viaduct north than I-5.  If the only option was the Alaskan Way surface street, they'd probably get on I-5 instead, and add to the already-horrible bottleneck at the Convention Center.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 26, 2016, 05:10:34 PM
Will the tunnel ever be completed? They keep running into problems. I wonder if the whole project might eventually be scrapped, and the tunnel will remain uncompleted.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 26, 2016, 05:30:03 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 26, 2016, 05:10:34 PM
Will the tunnel ever be completed? They keep running into problems. I wonder if the whole project might eventually be scrapped, and the tunnel will remain uncompleted.

The tunnel is getting completed. There's no going back. It'd be way too expensive to turn around and bail. Keep in mind that this project is about more than just the tunnel.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on January 27, 2016, 02:48:36 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 26, 2016, 05:30:03 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 26, 2016, 05:10:34 PM
Will the tunnel ever be completed? They keep running into problems. I wonder if the whole project might eventually be scrapped, and the tunnel will remain uncompleted.

The tunnel is getting completed. There's no going back. It'd be way too expensive to turn around and bail.

I know I said I agreed with Bruce two days ago.  But I think you're mostly right here as well.  Sort of.

I think your first sentence is true...almost certainly... probably.  It remains true as long as your last sentence as true.  Bailing on the project would cost a lot of money.  But delays, repairs, crashing into piers, and who knows what else also cost a lot of money.  At some point, there's a break even point.  In hindsight, I agree with Bruce and I would have rather this project not be started.  But given where we are, I agree with you that we're probably be better off seeing it to completion, and I hope we never see that break even point.  But I don't think your second sentence is true, that there's no turning back ever.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 05, 2016, 06:50:56 PM
The Washington State Senate voted not to confirm the Secretary for Transportation, Lynn Peterson (head of WSDOT) today, which basically means she's on her way out.

I think the governor could veto the dismissal but I doubt he will, even though he chose her to begin with Looks like the governor isn't pleased, but it doesn't look like there's much he can do.

http://www.king5.com/story/news/politics/state/2016/02/05/state-senate-fires-washingtons-transportation-secretary/79899292/

My guess is that this is tied to the tunnel and the 405 ETL, among other things.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on February 05, 2016, 07:30:24 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 05, 2016, 06:50:56 PM
The Washington State Senate voted not to confirm the Secretary for Transportation, Lynn Peterson (head of WSDOT) today, which basically means she's on her way out.

I think the governor could veto the dismissal but I doubt he will, even though he chose her to begin with Looks like the governor isn't pleased, but it doesn't look like there's much he can do.

http://www.king5.com/story/news/politics/state/2016/02/05/state-senate-fires-washingtons-transportation-secretary/79899292/

My guess is that this is tied to the tunnel and the 405 ETL, among other things.
The tunnel isn't her fault, but she's going to bear the cost of it.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on February 05, 2016, 07:33:43 PM
Taking the head job means taking responsibility, even if she didn't actually initiate the projects.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Tarkus on February 06, 2016, 03:24:05 AM
Watch her end up in Oregon.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 06, 2016, 03:29:20 AM
Quote from: Tarkus on February 06, 2016, 03:24:05 AM
Watch her end up in Oregon.

Funny you should mention that. She used to be the transportation adviser to Kitzhaber before Inslee appointed her head of Transportation in Washington.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Tarkus on February 06, 2016, 03:42:12 AM
She's extremely well-connected down here--before her advisory role, she was a Clackamas County commissioner and was toying with a run for governor in 2010.  I suspect if Brown is re-elected, there's about 100% chance she'll be in charge of another DOT.  Matt Garrett dates all the way back to the Kulongoski days.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mcarling on March 20, 2016, 02:20:32 AM
Bertha has reportedly reached a planned maintenance chamber and will be stopped for about a month.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on March 22, 2016, 04:43:35 PM
If this keeps up, it should be named the Stop-And-Go Tunnel.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on March 22, 2016, 04:50:25 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 22, 2016, 04:43:35 PM
If this keeps up, it should be named the Stop-And-Go Tunnel.

We already have a Stop-And-Go Tunnel. It's the one the buses and trains use downtown.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: 707 on March 26, 2016, 05:03:37 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 22, 2016, 04:50:25 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 22, 2016, 04:43:35 PM
If this keeps up, it should be named the Stop-And-Go Tunnel.

We already have a Stop-And-Go Tunnel. It's the one the buses and trains use downtown.

Well, now you have another.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on March 26, 2016, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: 707 on March 26, 2016, 05:03:37 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 22, 2016, 04:50:25 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 22, 2016, 04:43:35 PM
If this keeps up, it should be named the Stop-And-Go Tunnel.

We already have a Stop-And-Go Tunnel. It's the one the buses and trains use downtown.

Well, now you have another.

And we're building another train tunnel that will also be stop-and-go, though with only 3 stations in downtown. Pending a vote in November.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: 707 on March 28, 2016, 02:56:06 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 26, 2016, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: 707 on March 26, 2016, 05:03:37 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 22, 2016, 04:50:25 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 22, 2016, 04:43:35 PM
If this keeps up, it should be named the Stop-And-Go Tunnel.

We already have a Stop-And-Go Tunnel. It's the one the buses and trains use downtown.

Well, now you have another.

And we're building another train tunnel that will also be stop-and-go, though with only 3 stations in downtown. Pending a vote in November.

Like the saying goes, three's a crowd. How many more tunnels before Seattle's renamed "Tunnel City"?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on March 28, 2016, 11:11:11 AM
Quote from: 707 on March 28, 2016, 02:56:06 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 26, 2016, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: 707 on March 26, 2016, 05:03:37 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 22, 2016, 04:50:25 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 22, 2016, 04:43:35 PM
If this keeps up, it should be named the Stop-And-Go Tunnel.

We already have a Stop-And-Go Tunnel. It's the one the buses and trains use downtown.

Well, now you have another.

And we're building another train tunnel that will also be stop-and-go, though with only 3 stations in downtown. Pending a vote in November.

Like the saying goes, three's a crowd. How many more tunnels before Seattle's renamed "Tunnel City"?

Well, we're nowhere near the level of a city like New York, but we're pretty well ahead of our peers in Vancouver and Portland. More small tunnels for light rail, please!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: 707 on March 28, 2016, 04:54:31 PM
Quote from: Bruce on March 28, 2016, 11:11:11 AM
Quote from: 707 on March 28, 2016, 02:56:06 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 26, 2016, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: 707 on March 26, 2016, 05:03:37 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 22, 2016, 04:50:25 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 22, 2016, 04:43:35 PM
If this keeps up, it should be named the Stop-And-Go Tunnel.

We already have a Stop-And-Go Tunnel. It's the one the buses and trains use downtown.

Well, now you have another.

And we're building another train tunnel that will also be stop-and-go, though with only 3 stations in downtown. Pending a vote in November.

Like the saying goes, three's a crowd. How many more tunnels before Seattle's renamed "Tunnel City"?

Well, we're nowhere near the level of a city like New York, but we're pretty well ahead of our peers in Vancouver and Portland. More small tunnels for light rail, please!

In that case, why not a whole light rail subway?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on March 29, 2016, 12:20:05 AM
Quote from: 707 on March 28, 2016, 04:54:31 PM
Quote from: Bruce on March 28, 2016, 11:11:11 AM
Quote from: 707 on March 28, 2016, 02:56:06 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 26, 2016, 02:55:09 PM
Quote from: 707 on March 26, 2016, 05:03:37 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 22, 2016, 04:50:25 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 22, 2016, 04:43:35 PM
If this keeps up, it should be named the Stop-And-Go Tunnel.

We already have a Stop-And-Go Tunnel. It's the one the buses and trains use downtown.

Well, now you have another.

And we're building another train tunnel that will also be stop-and-go, though with only 3 stations in downtown. Pending a vote in November.

Like the saying goes, three's a crowd. How many more tunnels before Seattle's renamed "Tunnel City"?

Well, we're nowhere near the level of a city like New York, but we're pretty well ahead of our peers in Vancouver and Portland. More small tunnels for light rail, please!

In that case, why not a whole light rail subway?

We're basically building that. Grade-separated light rail from Lynnwood to Downtown/Bellevue by 2023. No grade crossings until you hit the Rainier Valley or the Bel-Red area on the Eastside.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on March 29, 2016, 01:07:17 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 29, 2016, 12:20:05 AM
No grade crossings until you hit the Rainier Valley or the Bel-Red area on the Eastside.

Which is something they should have avoided from the start. I'd like to think the trains could operate without a driver at some point. That'll be hard to achieve with at-grade crossings. Not to mention, you're at the mercy of cars and pedestrians when you're at-grade, which could be bad for overall system efficiency.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Sub-Urbanite on March 29, 2016, 09:56:24 AM
As a sometimes-MAX-riding Portlander, I am quite jealous
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on March 29, 2016, 04:59:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 29, 2016, 01:07:17 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 29, 2016, 12:20:05 AM
No grade crossings until you hit the Rainier Valley or the Bel-Red area on the Eastside.

Which is something they should have avoided from the start. I'd like to think the trains could operate without a driver at some point. That'll be hard to achieve with at-grade crossings. Not to mention, you're at the mercy of cars and pedestrians when you're at-grade, which could be bad for overall system efficiency.

Well, it was the price we paid for getting the project built in the first place. A Rainier Valley tunnel would've been expensive and a bit riskier than other tunnels (especially for a new agency). An elevated guideway would've been hugely controversial with both residents and social justice groups (who are already mad that Rainier Valley got stuck with street-running while North Seattle has tunnels, ignoring the general topography and such).

If ST3 is fully built out, the operating plan is to isolate the surface-running segments of the system (Ballard's moveable bridge and Rainier Valley) from the grade-separated system (with the exception of a mile of East Link east of 130th Station). It would be very much possible with today's technology to automate the Red Line (West Seattle-Everett).

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fstb-wp%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F12%2F04135851%2FST3-Draft-Map-01.png&hash=cd246e2894786c77ce0de4f32d470bbb0b4fd4e1)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Rothman on March 29, 2016, 09:58:23 PM
I'm still snickering over the South Lake Union Trolley.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Jardine on March 29, 2016, 10:16:17 PM
Too late now I realize, but I am curious, is anyone keeping track of the cost and cost overruns on the replacement tunnel as compared to what a cut and cover alternative to the TBM tunnel would have cost ??
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on March 29, 2016, 10:24:06 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2016, 09:58:23 PM
I'm still snickering over the South Lake Union Trolley.

Do you have the T-shirt?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 03, 2016, 03:26:24 PM
The viaduct closure so far has been a mixed bag.

Traffic doesn't seem to have increased too much in most corridors, transit ridership is up and causing delays, water taxi rides have spiked to record highs (http://www.westseattleherald.com/2016/05/01/news/king-county-water-taxi-delivering-record-level) as have bikes crossing the Duwamish River (http://www.seattlebikeblog.com/2016/05/03/bike-trips-from-west-seattle-spike-80-percent-monday-crushing-record/).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 03, 2016, 04:35:32 PM
I hope the remainder of the tunnel can be completed without too much additional trouble. Given the project's history, that's being extremely optimistic.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 03, 2016, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 03, 2016, 04:35:32 PM
I hope the remainder of the tunnel can be completed without too much additional trouble. Given the project's history, that's being extremely optimistic.

I think it's a little far-fetched to assume, that in 2016, we can't dig a tunnel. Certainly there's been some issues, but how many megaprojects go completed without a few issues here and there?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Gnutella on May 04, 2016, 07:34:10 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 21, 2014, 06:29:22 PMBertha, seen before she was put together:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.djc.com%2Fstories%2Fimages%2F20121211%2FTBM2_big.jpg&hash=c1f6535c8394772b4964a5577861f221c3cc2476)

Hey, when you're done with that thing, send it to Pittsburgh. The Fort Pitt Tunnel needs to be enlarged.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Rothman on May 04, 2016, 09:19:13 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 03, 2016, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 03, 2016, 04:35:32 PM
I hope the remainder of the tunnel can be completed without too much additional trouble. Given the project's history, that's being extremely optimistic.

I think it's a little far-fetched to assume, that in 2016, we can't dig a tunnel. Certainly there's been some issues, but how many megaprojects go completed without a few issues here and there?

I don't know about this; the issues they've had with the TBM do seem to be extraordinary to me. 

Although there was the absolute travesty with the Big Dig tunnel's roof panels that started falling due to crooked contractors, my recollection about the Big Dig is that a lot of the difficulties encountered were before they actually started tunneling.  For instance, they planned out the tunnel under the Fort Point Channel and discovered that they really didn't have a means of getting pre-cast tunnel sections to the location.  So, they had to go through the enormous endeavor of creating a casting basin on site, which boosted the costs incredibly. 

Having have one of the largest TBMs ever come to a standstill?  That's not an issue "here or there"; that's disastrous.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on May 04, 2016, 11:15:45 AM
So how much longer before Bertha can dig again?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on May 04, 2016, 03:04:32 PM
Quote from: Henry on May 04, 2016, 11:15:45 AM
So how much longer before Bertha can dig again?

Bertha is currently digging.  The viaduct closure that Bruce reported is because she is currently under the viaduct itself, and she's currently on pace to make enough progress to reopen the viaduct on time.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on May 04, 2016, 03:47:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 03, 2016, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 03, 2016, 04:35:32 PM
I hope the remainder of the tunnel can be completed without too much additional trouble. Given the project's history, that's being extremely optimistic.

I think it's a little far-fetched to assume, that in 2016, we can't dig a tunnel. Certainly there's been some issues, but how many megaprojects go completed without a few issues here and there?

I just hope it gets finished in less time than the Second Avenue Subway.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: noelbotevera on May 04, 2016, 03:50:51 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 04, 2016, 03:47:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 03, 2016, 04:45:02 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 03, 2016, 04:35:32 PM
I hope the remainder of the tunnel can be completed without too much additional trouble. Given the project's history, that's being extremely optimistic.

I think it's a little far-fetched to assume, that in 2016, we can't dig a tunnel. Certainly there's been some issues, but how many megaprojects go completed without a few issues here and there?

I just hope it gets finished in less time than the Second Avenue Subway.
I'll admit that you're gonna be correct by the time we're all dead. They haven't even finished the stations and it's gonna be 2078 or something like that before it's even past 96th Street.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 04, 2016, 06:11:14 PM
WSDOT has uploaded several new images to their Flickr page:

April 2016 view of progress on the future northbound SR 99 lanes (L) and northbound off-ramp (R) at the SR 99 tunnel's north portal in Seattle:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7032/26215321894_8a460a0d56_h.jpg)

This March 2016 photo shows the future northbound entrance for drivers entering the SR 99 tunnel from the South Royal Brougham Way on-ramp in Seattle:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7524/26820579355_a0157e13c0_h.jpg)

This is the view looking south from the future northbound off-ramp at the north portal of the SR 99 tunnel in April 2016. When the SR 99 tunnel opens to traffic, northbound drivers will use the off-ramp to get to the South Lake Union and Queen Anne neighborhoods:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7483/26216216383_7f18aea3cf_h.jpg)

A specially designed truck carries the next 10 tunnel liner segments — one ring's worth — into the SR 99 tunnel. That's a 360,000-pound load:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7047/26211322593_57cc66cdcb_h.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 05, 2016, 06:53:50 PM
Bertha has dug 182 feet so far, or about 47 percent of the way:

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/bertha-halfway-done-with-dig-under-alaskan-way-viaduct/ (http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/bertha-halfway-done-with-dig-under-alaskan-way-viaduct/)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.seattletimes.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F05%2Fed4ad21c-1185-11e6-b0f7-c57e10dfbbaf-780x520.jpg&hash=da2e91c09339cc6121a9961b847ec459599f364f)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Rothman on May 06, 2016, 10:32:48 AM
Makes me wonder how the tunnel is being lined, mechanically.  I know of other TBMs that somehow lined the tunnel as they went; not sure how they were reloaded with the lining panels, though. 

Makes me wonder if they just have crews following Bertha, lining the tunnel in a totally separate process from the drilling?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: english si on May 06, 2016, 11:47:46 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 06, 2016, 10:32:48 AMnot sure how they were reloaded with the lining panels, though.
It's not hard to create a supply line (conveyor, trucks, whatever) in the already-built tunnel behind the TBM.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 08, 2016, 05:57:22 PM
Our long national nightmare is over.

The viaduct re-opens tomorrow morning.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/News/2016/05/8_viaductreopensformondayamcommute.htm
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 08, 2016, 06:29:11 PM
Quote from: Bruce on May 08, 2016, 05:57:22 PM
Our long national nightmare is over.

The viaduct re-opens tomorrow morning.

With, in my opinion, one of the biggest hurdles out of the way, the debate has turned to Alaskan Way itself. The road is currently planned to be eight lanes, but there's discussions to bring that down to six. As long as they maintain bus-only lanes, I'm happy.

http://goo.gl/BtXUe2

Quote
Here's the dilemma at hand: Alaskan Way will need to accommodate ferry queue lanes, some freight traffic since the port is so close, as well as tens of thousands of bus passengers coming into downtown each day.

As part of the study to build the new Alaskan Way, Foster and his team looked at what taking the road down from a maximum of 8 to 6 lanes would mean.

"What we find happens — because there are so many buses coming in and out of downtown - is that we get a queue that backs up and it could from our analysis — back up as much as a mile and a half...8,000 feet onto SR 99,"  Foster said. "Getting buses in and out of downtown takes twice as long in that part of the corridor. I want to make it really plan that based on that type of information, it is our strong preference ... the city's preference ... is to have the dedicated transit lanes. We think it makes all the Roads move more effectively."

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 11, 2016, 06:48:26 PM
Bertha reached its planned maintenance stop...and is digging past it.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/bertha-drills-on-as-rest-stop-is-delayed/

Either Seattle Tunnel Partners is overconfident or they've found the proposed stop point to be too risky (stalls and whatnot).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on October 25, 2016, 01:40:54 PM
FREEWAY ENTRANCE signs, signals, and pavement markings are all being installed this month and next month in and around the north portal.

My question is: was this all supposed to be finished before boring was complete? Or did the boring take so long, the finishing work superseded its surfacing?

Also happy to see flashing yellow arrows at the 6 Ave/Harrison junction, though it looks like the left turn onto 99 from the future 6 Ave alignment is a three-section head. Why the inconsistency, I'll never know. Maybe I'll wait until this project is finished before I judge.

Photos credit: WSDOT Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/)

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5684/29825640803_681ee2c301_h.jpg)

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5651/30421683656_c356d37a75_h.jpg)

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5632/29825691513_8fa07de79f_h.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on October 25, 2016, 01:51:31 PM
Thanks for the photos!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 25, 2016, 03:25:55 PM
Does this mean the tunnel will open soon? And if so, how long before the old double-decked elevated viaduct is demolished?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on October 25, 2016, 03:50:26 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 25, 2016, 01:51:31 PM
Thanks for the photos!

Yeah, about that....WSDOT took them. No idea if this places them in the public domain or not. But they were on their flickr page.

I updated my post above to give credit.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on October 25, 2016, 03:52:48 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 25, 2016, 03:25:55 PM
Does this mean the tunnel will open soon? And if so, how long before the old double-decked elevated viaduct is demolished?

The tunnel, and all its connecting bits, won't be open until 2018. The boring is proceeding at about 450-500 feet per month, placing the boring completion somewhere around late spring (ahead of their July 2017 estimate).

The viaduct won't come down until the tunnel is fully operational. I assume demolition will begin a few weeks after that point.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on October 25, 2016, 04:34:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2016, 03:50:26 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 25, 2016, 01:51:31 PM
Thanks for the photos!
Yeah, about that....WSDOT took them. No idea if this places them in the public domain or not. But they were on their flickr page.

I updated my post above to give credit.

Well, then, thank you for reposting the WashDOT photos.  :)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 01, 2016, 05:32:32 PM
I have a feeling once the Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel is complete, that will be the end of freeway tunnel building in the United States. Although I would love to see more freeway tunnels constructed, that seems to be the perception I am getting.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 01, 2016, 07:57:47 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 01, 2016, 05:32:32 PM
I have a feeling once the Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel is complete, that will be the end of freeway tunnel building in the United States. Although I would love to see more freeway tunnels constructed, that seems to be the perception I am getting.
I hope not. Though it has been a bitch, hopefully people will see the benefits of tunnels though more costly, they are worth the price.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 01, 2016, 08:16:57 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 01, 2016, 05:32:32 PM
I have a feeling once the Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel is complete, that will be the end of freeway tunnel building in the United States. Although I would love to see more freeway tunnels constructed, that seems to be the perception I am getting.

There's nothing wrong with tunnels. The issue with the viaduct replacement tunnel (worst. name. ever) was the management.

If anything, I expect more tunnels to be built in the future. They allow traffic to move through an environment without disturbing it. That's the main issue with freeways as-is: they are physical and mental barriers between communities. If there's no freeway in the way, such a barrier wouldn't exist.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on November 01, 2016, 11:28:08 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 01, 2016, 08:16:57 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 01, 2016, 05:32:32 PM
I have a feeling once the Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel is complete, that will be the end of freeway tunnel building in the United States. Although I would love to see more freeway tunnels constructed, that seems to be the perception I am getting.

There's nothing wrong with tunnels. The issue with the viaduct replacement tunnel (worst. name. ever) was the management.

If anything, I expect more tunnels to be built in the future. They allow traffic to move through an environment without disturbing it. That's the main issue with freeways as-is: they are physical and mental barriers between communities. If there's no freeway in the way, such a barrier wouldn't exist.

I agree. I really do hope more tunnels are built to expand urban freeway networks. We sure as heck need it! And regarding the name of the tunnel, I'm pretty sure most people will end up calling it the "Alaskan Way Tunnel."
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Duke87 on November 01, 2016, 11:54:58 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 01, 2016, 05:32:32 PM
I have a feeling once the Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel is complete, that will be the end of freeway tunnel building in the United States. Although I would love to see more freeway tunnels constructed, that seems to be the perception I am getting.

Everyone said after the Big Dig it'd never be done again, and yet here we are.

Tunnels are getting proposed as alternatives in urban freeway reconstruction projects all over the country. So long as that keeps happening, it will end up being the selected alternative somewhere. All it takes is a few well-connected entities favoring it and the money will be found.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on November 02, 2016, 12:19:30 AM
Plenty of other tunnels being built just fine in Seattle...   :pan:

I do think Bertha might jeopardize any proposal to rebuild Interstate 5 in a constructive manner (crazy ideas notwithstanding (https://www.theurbanist.org/2016/10/31/remove-i-5/)), which would obviously include burying the entire thing through downtown. The rebuild (which will have to happen soon) will be a mess from conception to opening, and I look forward to being in the thick of it.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on November 02, 2016, 12:34:42 AM
Quote from: Bruce on November 02, 2016, 12:19:30 AM
Plenty of other tunnels being built just fine in Seattle...   :pan:

(crazy ideas notwithstanding (https://www.theurbanist.org/2016/10/31/remove-i-5/))

Lol, can't believe people are seriously considering removing I-5 completely. I-405 cannot handle any long distance traffic; it's barely adequate as it currently stands.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 02, 2016, 12:37:38 AM
Quote from: Bruce on November 02, 2016, 12:19:30 AM
Plenty of other tunnels being built just fine in Seattle...

I was going to make this argument as well, but they did specify freeways:

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 01, 2016, 05:32:32 PM
...that will be the end of freeway tunnel building in the United States.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on November 02, 2016, 01:44:21 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on November 02, 2016, 12:34:42 AM
Quote from: Bruce on November 02, 2016, 12:19:30 AM
Plenty of other tunnels being built just fine in Seattle...   :pan:

(crazy ideas notwithstanding (https://www.theurbanist.org/2016/10/31/remove-i-5/))

Lol, can't believe people are seriously considering removing I-5 completely. I-405 cannot handle any long distance traffic; it's barely adequate as it currently stands.
Then-Mayor Vera Katz and the Portland City Council proposed removing I-5 on the Willamette's east bank in Portland, so that's not unique to Seattle. The commission put together to study the proposal concluded I-5 was too important to both local and inter-regional uses and said we should probably tunnel it under the river to near Rose Quarter.
What were the alternatives... Do Nothing
Shitcan the Eastbank and let the Stadium (I-405) take up the slack (haha, holy shit they hated this idea)
Turn the Stadium and Eastbank Freeways into the world's largest traffic circle (interesting idea, I'll give it that)
Tunnel the Stadium from SW Park to the river, tunnel the Baldock (I-5 going south from Portland) from just north of exit 299A, then tunnel the freeway across the river and roughly to SE/NE 7th Ave, then back toward the Fremont Stack, leaving the Marquam Bridge for local use, and modify the current Banfield-Morrison Bridge/Rose Quarter interchanges to suit.

...At least ODOT and PBOT are FINALLY starting to address the Rose Quarter bottleneck on the Eastbank.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 02, 2016, 02:15:26 PM
Some tunnel ideas haven't panned out, of course. The Gowanus Tunnel was canceled in 2011, the Interstate 710 tunnel is probably going to be canceled as well. In addition, I doubt the Interstate 84 tunnel proposal in Hartford will be constructed. Wasn't there briefly a proposal to tunnel some of Interstate 95 in Philadelphia? I believe there was a thread about it on Aaroads.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 02, 2016, 05:05:59 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 02, 2016, 02:15:26 PM
Some tunnel ideas haven't panned out, of course. The Gowanus Tunnel was canceled in 2011, the Interstate 710 tunnel is probably going to be canceled as well. In addition, I doubt the Interstate 84 tunnel proposal in Hartford will be constructed. Wasn't there briefly a proposal to tunnel some of Interstate 95 in Philadelphia? I believe there was a thread about it on Aaroads.

Tunnels are generally rejected because of their high expense. Which is a legitimate concern, of course. But that doesn't detract from the effectiveness of tunnels as a whole.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on January 25, 2017, 10:41:59 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on November 01, 2016, 11:54:58 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 01, 2016, 05:32:32 PM
I have a feeling once the Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel is complete, that will be the end of freeway tunnel building in the United States. Although I would love to see more freeway tunnels constructed, that seems to be the perception I am getting.

Everyone said after the Big Dig it'd never be done again, and yet here we are.

Tunnels are getting proposed as alternatives in urban freeway reconstruction projects all over the country. So long as that keeps happening, it will end up being the selected alternative somewhere. All it takes is a few well-connected entities favoring it and the money will be found.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 02, 2016, 05:05:59 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 02, 2016, 02:15:26 PM
Some tunnel ideas haven't panned out, of course. The Gowanus Tunnel was canceled in 2011, the Interstate 710 tunnel is probably going to be canceled as well. In addition, I doubt the Interstate 84 tunnel proposal in Hartford will be constructed. Wasn't there briefly a proposal to tunnel some of Interstate 95 in Philadelphia? I believe there was a thread about it on Aaroads.

Tunnels are generally rejected because of their high expense. Which is a legitimate concern, of course. But that doesn't detract from the effectiveness of tunnels as a whole.
Soon they will begin relocating I-70 in Denver underground, so building freeway tunnels isn't over by a longshot. And we also know about the tunnel proposals in Atlanta for I-75/I-85 and the I-675 extension, but it is very likely that neither will actually be built.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on January 25, 2017, 01:48:02 PM
Quote from: Henry on January 25, 2017, 10:41:59 AM
Soon they will begin relocating I-70 in Denver underground, so building freeway tunnels isn't over by a longshot. And we also know about the tunnel proposals in Atlanta for I-75/I-85 and the I-675 extension, but it is very likely that neither will actually be built.

Is there funding identified to relocate I-70 to a tunnel?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 25, 2017, 09:14:05 PM
WSDOT posted another rendering on their Flickr page (https://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/). I'm certain a render similar to this has popped up before, but nonetheless, I think it's a cool visualisation of what we can sort-of expect when the tunnel is finished.

My two cents: Alaskan Way should be designed around ferry access, medium/heavy goods vehicle access, and transit. Especially given how lightly-used present-day Alaskan Way is, I'm not sure why there's so much emphasis on personal vehicles on the future Alaskan Way. Seattle has already, very publicly (https://goo.gl/V3tfCo), given up on the car. I think one-lane in each direction is satisfactory (as much as it may sound like it wouldn't be). Hell, I'd even go so far as to say that Alaskan Way shouldn't allow personal vehicles at all. Truck, transit, and ferry only!

Don't get me wrong: I love my car, especially because I live in the suburbs, and transit access is poor (Pierce Transit pales in comparison to Metro and Community transit). But cities aren't right for cars. Pardon me for using an oft-hated word, but too many GP lanes along Alaskan Way will induce demand, demand that, at least from what I can tell off-hand, downtown Seattle's one-way system should be able to handle (as busy at it may already be). Alaskan Way certainly shouldn't be designed around through-traffic, especially when you consider the tunnel below it that's supposed to serve that purpose anyway.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/752/31569378764_79d6129820_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on January 26, 2017, 01:53:28 AM
I think it's fine to leave Alaskan Way four lanes as it is. I personally am sick and tired of seeing road capacity being reduced in Seattle even though . And personally, I don't agree with the whole induced demand thing being a counterargument to expanding road capacity. There is a certain point at which a certain capacity will be adequate. The only reason why it will one day become inadequate is because population increases. The reason why I-5 in Everett, which was widened in 2008 and is already getting clogged again in the afternoons, is because it's only three lanes across the Snohomish River delta, and there's a chokepoint just north of the US 2 interchange where the freeway goes from 4 lanes to three lanes. The reason why that's getting congested is because the north part of Snohomish County is rapidly growing.

Also, if personal vehicles are completely banned from Alaskan Way, that will impact businesses along the waterfront because people can't get to them.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 26, 2017, 02:46:22 AM
There's nothing to agree with in regards to induced demand. It's a known and documented phenomenon that needs to be considered when you have a limited amount of money to fix transportation problems. The Everett situation is a perfect example of induced demand, as the newly expanded road filled right back up, though now there's a HOV bypass for those who are smart enough to buddy-up for a commute.

As for capacity in Seattle, the problem isn't reduction or expansion, but rather unbalanced capacity. I-5 waxes and wanes in lane count, which leads to merging and bottlenecks.

There's not many Alaskan Way businesses that rely on personal car traffic in the first place. Tourist attractions will be easy enough to walk to without a giant freeway in the way (and especially with new options like the 1st Avenue streetcar opening in 2020 or so), and actual working industries will use trucks that could be given special access (seen in places like Manchester, UK where there is a network of bollards guarding truck/bus zones).

The only potential problem I see is with taxis at the Cruise Ship Terminal, but we could easily enable them to use the new Alaskan Way. Or run shuttle buses. Or restore the Waterfront Streetcar.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 26, 2017, 03:52:06 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on January 26, 2017, 01:53:28 AM
I think it's fine to leave Alaskan Way four lanes as it is. I personally am sick and tired of seeing road capacity being reduced in Seattle even though . And personally, I don't agree with the whole induced demand thing being a counterargument to expanding road capacity. There is a certain point at which a certain capacity will be adequate. The only reason why it will one day become inadequate is because population increases. The reason why I-5 in Everett, which was widened in 2008 and is already getting clogged again in the afternoons, is because it's only three lanes across the Snohomish River delta, and there's a chokepoint just north of the US 2 interchange where the freeway goes from 4 lanes to three lanes. The reason why that's getting congested is because the north part of Snohomish County is rapidly growing.

Also, if personal vehicles are completely banned from Alaskan Way, that will impact businesses along the waterfront because people can't get to them.
i agree man
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Sub-Urbanite on January 26, 2017, 12:13:13 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 26, 2017, 02:46:22 AM
There's nothing to agree with in regards to induced demand. It's a known and documented phenomenon that needs to be considered when you have a limited amount of money to fix transportation problems. The Everett situation is a perfect example of induced demand, as the newly expanded road filled right back up, though now there's a HOV bypass for those who are smart enough to buddy-up for a commute.


Amen. Let's not argue with science here. There's solid data. That's not to say that every freeway will induce demand and become filled to capacity, but it's clear that the majority of freeway expansion projects will ultimately cause more people to use the speeded-up highway.

Side note — Read some research a few years ago that light rail also induces demand. Same concept — people shift from car to train, freeway gets faster, other people take freeway. So, basically, it becomes a game of figuring out how to move the most people as efficiently as possible, knowing that there is a set limit on what the freeway can do for you.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on January 26, 2017, 12:20:30 PM
There are bars and restaurants along Alaskan Way.  Not being able to get to them by car or taxi would really hurt their business, I think.  For a fun evening out, a lot fewer people are willing to take bus or light rail than they would for work or errands.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 26, 2017, 12:51:45 PM
People take Metro out to events in DC all the time on nights and weekends, as do service-sector employees. It's much less of a big deal than you're making it out to be, and on the balance it will cut down on DUIs.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: AsphaltPlanet on January 26, 2017, 12:52:41 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on January 26, 2017, 12:13:13 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 26, 2017, 02:46:22 AM
There's nothing to agree with in regards to induced demand. It's a known and documented phenomenon that needs to be considered when you have a limited amount of money to fix transportation problems. The Everett situation is a perfect example of induced demand, as the newly expanded road filled right back up, though now there's a HOV bypass for those who are smart enough to buddy-up for a commute.


Amen. Let's not argue with science here. There's solid data. That's not to say that every freeway will induce demand and become filled to capacity, but it's clear that the majority of freeway expansion projects will ultimately cause more people to use the speeded-up highway.

Side note — Read some research a few years ago that light rail also induces demand. Same concept — people shift from car to train, freeway gets faster, other people take freeway. So, basically, it becomes a game of figuring out how to move the most people as efficiently as possible, knowing that there is a set limit on what the freeway can do for you.

Demand can be induced with anything.  In a fictitious world, if a new high speed rail line was built between Seattle and Portland, it would spur new demand that wasn't there before that service opened.

In a freeway context, even if demand is induced by a freeway widening project, mobility is also increased.  So if, for example, a new lane was added to a freeway in an effort to ease congestion which becomes filled up in a few years, there are now capacity for 2000 additional trips per direction, per hour.

Demand induction is a real thing, and should be factored in as a decision in transportation planning initiatives, however, the increase in mobility may not be irrelevant, even if the level of service isn't significantly changed.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 26, 2017, 02:22:47 PM
Quote from: kkt on January 26, 2017, 12:20:30 PM
There are bars and restaurants along Alaskan Way.  Not being able to get to them by car or taxi would really hurt their business, I think.  For a fun evening out, a lot fewer people are willing to take bus or light rail than they would for work or errands.

But an 8-lane expressway between downtown and the waterfront shops could stand to hurt business just as much. We're trying to make this a walkable area.

Besides, you can still park a couple blocks up and walk down to the waterfront. There's no parking along the waterfront anyway, except below the viaduct, and I think both the current roadway and those parking lots are going to be merged into the future, much wider Alaskan Way. AFAIK, there's no plans for parking along the roadway anyway. The only parking options are private lots adjacent to the waterfront, and those won't last long once the waterfront is finished, due to increased land values.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 26, 2017, 02:23:54 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 26, 2017, 02:46:22 AM
There's not many Alaskan Way businesses that rely on personal car traffic in the first place. Tourist attractions will be easy enough to walk to without a giant freeway in the way (and especially with new options like the 1st Avenue streetcar opening in 2020 or so), and actual working industries will use trucks that could be given special access (seen in places like Manchester, UK where there is a network of bollards guarding truck/bus zones).

I quite like the bollard idea. Obviously, Alaskan Way would need to be shrunken down considerably for that to work, but, if personal vehicles weren't allowed (beyond like ride-share), there wouldn't need to be more than two lanes in each direction (one for transit, the other for delivery vehicles, taxis, etc).

Quote from: Bruce on January 26, 2017, 02:46:22 AM
The only potential problem I see is with taxis at the Cruise Ship Terminal, but we could easily enable them to use the new Alaskan Way. Or run shuttle buses. Or restore the Waterfront Streetcar.

My primary ship concerns are the Bremerton and Bainbridge ferries. I know I already mentioned the ferries, but it's an issue that would seriously need to be ironed out for the "no personal vehicles" idea to work. The good news is that the ferries all dock south of Marion, so there'd need to be personal vehicle accommodation from that point south, but the true waterfront doesn't start until north of Marion anyway, so I don't think that would be a big deal.

The cruise ships shouldn't be too big of a deal, because their garages are accessed from Elliott. And of course taxis and ride-share could be accommodated along Alaskan Way, so those who don't drive could still access the ships.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on January 26, 2017, 11:32:47 PM
Induced demand is a fallacy. Very few trips are generated that weren't there before. They are coming from other modes and other streets. People completely ignore side streets and alternate routes, focus on the freeway filling up again, and claim that the demand was "induced." The best way to phrase it is "undisplaced." This is traffic that wanted to use the freeway before but couldn't due to capacity, so had to select alternate routes or make different lifestyle choices (i.e. going to a closer but lower quality destination, telecommuting, trip chaining, alternative modes). You're not building a freeway in a congested urban environment and suddenly people say "oh, let's go drive on the freeway." No, they always wanted to, but were unable.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on January 27, 2017, 04:25:05 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 26, 2017, 11:32:47 PM
Induced demand is a fallacy. Very few trips are generated that weren't there before. They are coming from other modes and other streets. People completely ignore side streets and alternate routes, focus on the freeway filling up again, and claim that the demand was "induced." The best way to phrase it is "undisplaced." This is traffic that wanted to use the freeway before but couldn't due to capacity, so had to select alternate routes or make different lifestyle choices (i.e. going to a closer but lower quality destination, telecommuting, trip chaining, alternative modes). You're not building a freeway in a congested urban environment and suddenly people say "oh, let's go drive on the freeway." No, they always wanted to, but were unable.

Totally agree with this. The only people who drive on a road "because it's there" and not to get to a specific destination are roadgeeks trying to clinch it, people checking out a newly built road for the first time, and people who want to drive on a scenic route.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on January 27, 2017, 12:24:59 PM
Or they chose to locate their house far from their job because there's a convenient freeway between them.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on January 28, 2017, 12:56:16 AM
Quote from: kkt on January 27, 2017, 12:24:59 PM
Or they chose to locate their house far from their job because there's a convenient freeway between them.

That demand is taken from somewhere else, then.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on January 28, 2017, 02:53:05 AM
Setting aside my opinion (and that of Alps) that induced demand is a fallacy, if Alaskan Way Viaduct is going to remain four lanes as it is now, why would induced demand even be a concern if the road is not going to be widened beyond its present configuration?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 28, 2017, 07:54:39 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on January 28, 2017, 02:53:05 AM
Setting aside my opinion (and that of Alps) that induced demand is a fallacy, if Alaskan Way Viaduct is going to remain four lanes as it is now, why would induced demand even be a concern if the road is not going to be widened beyond its present configuration?

Alaskan Way is only 2 lanes for most of its southern half, and has been configured as so for several years.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on January 28, 2017, 10:43:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 28, 2017, 07:54:39 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on January 28, 2017, 02:53:05 AM
Setting aside my opinion (and that of Alps) that induced demand is a fallacy, if Alaskan Way Viaduct is going to remain four lanes as it is now, why would induced demand even be a concern if the road is not going to be widened beyond its present configuration?

Alaskan Way is only 2 lanes for most of its southern half, and has been configured as so for several years.

Oh yeah, that's right.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: bing101 on January 28, 2017, 10:04:22 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1uf1d7ta1M


Freewayjim did a tour of the Alaska way viaduct and some updates of construction for a tunnel at the time.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on January 28, 2017, 10:11:00 PM
Good idea to post that video! It will soon become historical documentation. I subscribe to Freewayjim as well as many other people like him (and am planning on making some road videos of my own), so I've already saw it, but it's good to post it for those who haven't seen it. WARNING: Watching road videos is a great way to waste a bunch of time. :D
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on January 29, 2017, 04:21:51 PM
Quote from: compdude787 on January 28, 2017, 10:43:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 28, 2017, 07:54:39 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on January 28, 2017, 02:53:05 AM
Setting aside my opinion (and that of Alps) that induced demand is a fallacy, if Alaskan Way Viaduct is going to remain four lanes as it is now, why would induced demand even be a concern if the road is not going to be widened beyond its present configuration?

Alaskan Way is only 2 lanes for most of its southern half, and has been configured as so for several years.

Oh yeah, that's right.
Whether you believe in it or not, induced demand is much less a problem when widening a street on an existing urban grid. Getting to the downtown is the trouble. As long as existing Alaskan Way isn't a bottleneck (which I don't believe it is), while it may draw some traffic off of other parallel streets, it's not going to free up all the approach routes that would be needed to draw new demand to the downtown.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 29, 2017, 05:36:49 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 29, 2017, 04:21:51 PM
Quote from: compdude787 on January 28, 2017, 10:43:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 28, 2017, 07:54:39 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on January 28, 2017, 02:53:05 AM
Setting aside my opinion (and that of Alps) that induced demand is a fallacy, if Alaskan Way Viaduct is going to remain four lanes as it is now, why would induced demand even be a concern if the road is not going to be widened beyond its present configuration?

Alaskan Way is only 2 lanes for most of its southern half, and has been configured as so for several years.

Oh yeah, that's right.

Whether you believe in it or not, induced demand is much less a problem when widening a street on an existing urban grid. Getting to the downtown is the trouble. As long as existing Alaskan Way isn't a bottleneck (which I don't believe it is), while it may draw some traffic off of other parallel streets, it's not going to free up all the approach routes that would be needed to draw new demand to the downtown.

There is one omission from the tunnel design that is different from the current viaduct: no downtown exits or entrances. This means that cars going to and from the south will need to use Alaskan Way to enter or exit the Hwy 99; essentially, Alaskan Way will become a giant on-/off-ramp. Right now, traffic (destined for downtown) exits at either Seneca or, less likely, Western, and can enter from Columbia or Elliott. Everyone else passes through the Battery Street tunnel and turns around, or gets off waaayy down south near Spokane Street and traverses 1st or 4th Avenues. An Alaskan Way that has signalized connections to most/all east/west named streets, and has direct access to the tunnel, will end up serving a whole lot more traffic than it does now because present-day Alaskan Way terminates at a T-junction with 1st Ave. A widened Alaskan Way won't induce demand in a way that brings more cars downtown, but it will encourage more cars to use Hwy 99 + Alaskan Way, versus Spokane Street Viaduct + 1st or 4th Avenues.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 29, 2017, 09:22:47 PM
Err, on second thought, guess we don't have a choice but to maintain 4 GP lanes along Alaskan Way. WSDOT signed an agreement with the Port of Seattle (https://goo.gl/TiAf1z) that, in exchange for $300M in funding, guaranteed four lanes of GP traffic along Alaskan Way (see pages 3 and 4 at the link).

The only two options would be either (A) refund the Port of Seattle's $300M of funding in exchange for an MOU that basically tells the port to piss off, or (B) ban general traffic along Alaskan Way, but permit trucks, which should still make the Port of Seattle happy (but perhaps not fit the contract in the exact manner requested).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on January 29, 2017, 11:43:45 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 29, 2017, 05:36:49 PM

There is one omission from the tunnel design that is different from the current viaduct: no downtown exits or entrances. This means that cars going to and from the south will need to use Alaskan Way to enter or exit the Hwy 99; essentially, Alaskan Way will become a giant on-/off-ramp. Right now, traffic (destined for downtown) exits at either Seneca or, less likely, Western, and can enter from Columbia or Elliott. Everyone else passes through the Battery Street tunnel and turns around, or gets off waaayy down south near Spokane Street and traverses 1st or 4th Avenues. An Alaskan Way that has signalized connections to most/all east/west named streets, and has direct access to the tunnel, will end up serving a whole lot more traffic than it does now because present-day Alaskan Way terminates at a T-junction with 1st Ave. A widened Alaskan Way won't induce demand in a way that brings more cars downtown, but it will encourage more cars to use Hwy 99 + Alaskan Way, versus Spokane Street Viaduct + 1st or 4th Avenues.

So we're basically in agreement.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 30, 2017, 01:40:45 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 29, 2017, 11:43:45 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 29, 2017, 05:36:49 PM
There is one omission from the tunnel design that is different from the current viaduct: no downtown exits or entrances. This means that cars going to and from the south will need to use Alaskan Way to enter or exit the Hwy 99; essentially, Alaskan Way will become a giant on-/off-ramp. Right now, traffic (destined for downtown) exits at either Seneca or, less likely, Western, and can enter from Columbia or Elliott. Everyone else passes through the Battery Street tunnel and turns around, or gets off waaayy down south near Spokane Street and traverses 1st or 4th Avenues. An Alaskan Way that has signalized connections to most/all east/west named streets, and has direct access to the tunnel, will end up serving a whole lot more traffic than it does now because present-day Alaskan Way terminates at a T-junction with 1st Ave. A widened Alaskan Way won't induce demand in a way that brings more cars downtown, but it will encourage more cars to use Hwy 99 + Alaskan Way, versus Spokane Street Viaduct + 1st or 4th Avenues.

So we're basically in agreement.

Maybe. I haven't made up my mind. Anything that relieves pressure will make it easier for the compressed energy to flow. If future Alaskan Way makes it easier to drive downtown, I have a hard time believing that more people won't switch back to driving (even though my previous comment states the exact opposite :ded:).

Even if we surmise that more cars don't come downtown after all of this waterfront work is finished, Alaskan Way will basically begin to act as though it were an at-grade interstate spur into downtown from the south (like I-180). It will be busy, a lot. Most of the time, I'd bet. In fact, I have no doubt that it will be substantially busier than present-day Alaskan Way, because it serves a much bigger purpose. While we have the opportunity to build ourselves a great waterfront, we really ought to keep the cars downtown in the one-way system, away from the waterfront where walkability should be king (which it won't be if there's a giant 8-lane expressway running right alongside it, simultaneously separating it from downtown).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 12, 2017, 01:00:38 PM
Seattle Times: How did we get here? A look back on Seattle's tunnel machine Bertha (http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/bertha-tunnel-boring-machine-history-viaduct-replacement/)

QuoteBertha's end could be near.

QuoteThe world's largest tunnel-boring machine is on schedule to break into daylight this spring after a tumultuous dig under downtown Seattle that's years behind schedule.

QuoteThe massive drill is part of the state Department of Transportation's multibillion-dollar plan to replace the aging Alaskan Way Viaduct, which runs about two miles along the city's waterfront and could buckle in an earthquake.

QuoteWe've spotlighted Bertha's technical challenges and successes every step of the way.

QuoteHere's a look back on that coverage, leading to what is expected to be the four-lane, $2.1 billion Highway 99 tunnel's opening in 2019.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on March 24, 2017, 09:32:20 AM
So what are they going to do with Bertha when she's done? I'm guessing one of two things: Either destroy her or donate her to the Smithsonian.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on March 24, 2017, 11:44:41 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 24, 2017, 09:32:20 AM
So what are they going to do with Bertha when she's done? I'm guessing one of two things: Either destroy her or donate her to the Smithsonian.

Would there be any sense in drilling more tunnels in Seattle?  If so, keep it around for that time!

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on March 24, 2017, 01:24:30 PM
Quote from: Henry on March 24, 2017, 09:32:20 AM
So what are they going to do with Bertha when she's done? I'm guessing one of two things: Either destroy her or donate her to the Smithsonian.

I suspect she will be scrapped. There simply is no other use for a tunnel boring machine that large. The Sound Transit tunnel boring machines are being re-used because multiple tunnels need digging, but the Alaskan Way tunnel is very much a one-off project.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on March 24, 2017, 01:34:34 PM
Yes, scrapped.  They're too big to transport economically.  They aren't built with the expectation of re-use; once they've dug and dug for a couple of years on one project they're pretty much shot.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: sparker on March 24, 2017, 05:22:55 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 24, 2017, 01:34:34 PM
Yes, scrapped.  They're too big to transport economically.  They aren't built with the expectation of re-use; once they've dug and dug for a couple of years on one project they're pretty much shot.


Except for the boring head itself, the machine looks (from the pix I've seen) like it's pretty modular; the mechanism could likely be disassembled and reused elsewhere (some components may need to be "sized" to fit any future projects).  The actual heads are essentially toast after a project of this size; it's a certainty they'll be scrapped. 
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on March 25, 2017, 10:41:47 PM
Send her to Rye, NY.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on March 25, 2017, 11:21:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 24, 2017, 01:24:30 PM
Quote from: Henry on March 24, 2017, 09:32:20 AM
So what are they going to do with Bertha when she's done? I'm guessing one of two things: Either destroy her or donate her to the Smithsonian.

I suspect she will be scrapped. There simply is no other use for a tunnel boring machine that large. The Sound Transit tunnel boring machines are being re-used because multiple tunnels need digging, but the Alaskan Way tunnel is very much a one-off project.

I remember mentioning either upthread in here or in another similar discussion that when the English Channel Tunnel was drilled, several of the TBMs that were used were purposely driven off course after they reached their objectives and subsequently entombed in the chalk marl under the Channel.  It would have been prohibitively expensive to retrieve them for reuse elsewhere.

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on March 26, 2017, 01:53:33 AM
Quote from: Alps on March 25, 2017, 10:41:47 PM
Send her to Rye, NY.

Haha, that's actually a good idea, though.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on March 31, 2017, 07:22:05 PM
The tunneling machine is 127 feet from the disassembly pit as of today.  Expect it to break through sometime next week.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: duaneu2 on March 31, 2017, 09:43:19 PM
Quote from: Henry on March 24, 2017, 09:32:20 AM
So what are they going to do with Bertha when she's done? I'm guessing one of two things: Either destroy her or donate her to the Smithsonian.

It's going to be dismantled. From the Seattle Times article today:

The steel cutting disc will be carved into eight sections, one for each spoke. Those sections then must be further chopped to meet the 20-ton limit for transport on city streets. Pieces that many Puget Sound-area residents have come to know – the 57-foot, 4-inch diameter cutting disc, the ring-shaped bearing, the white steel shell – will probably be melted and recycled. Other parts, including the 24 giant electric motors deep inside the machine and the movable arms that position the concrete tunnel rings in back, should be reusable. So should miles of hoses, wires and conveyor belts.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on April 04, 2017, 05:10:46 PM
Broke through today!  The tunneling machine is through and will move a little forward to the location planned for its dismantling.  Video at:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Bertha-set-to-break-through-tunnel-s-end-Tuesday-11047676.php
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on April 05, 2017, 12:18:13 AM
Quote from: kkt on April 04, 2017, 05:10:46 PM
Broke through today!  The tunneling machine is through and will move a little forward to the location planned for its dismantling.  Video at:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Bertha-set-to-break-through-tunnel-s-end-Tuesday-11047676.php

Awesome!! Thank God it didn't have any more problems.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on April 05, 2017, 02:32:27 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on April 05, 2017, 12:18:13 AM
Quote from: kkt on April 04, 2017, 05:10:46 PM
Broke through today!  The tunneling machine is through and will move a little forward to the location planned for its dismantling.  Video at:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Bertha-set-to-break-through-tunnel-s-end-Tuesday-11047676.php

Awesome!! Thank God it didn't have any more problems.

It's only beginning. There's currently legislation proposed that would dump the cost overruns onto Seattle (who voted against the tunnel in the first place), so expect more fighting.

I propose a $100 toll for non-Seattle drivers if the overruns are forced on the city. And then the closure of I-5.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on April 05, 2017, 09:24:26 AM
Well, everyone here in Seattle is breathing a huge sigh of relief...for now.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on April 05, 2017, 10:11:20 AM
Quote from: Bruce on April 05, 2017, 02:32:27 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on April 05, 2017, 12:18:13 AM
Quote from: kkt on April 04, 2017, 05:10:46 PM
Broke through today!  The tunneling machine is through and will move a little forward to the location planned for its dismantling.  Video at:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Bertha-set-to-break-through-tunnel-s-end-Tuesday-11047676.php

Awesome!! Thank God it didn't have any more problems.

It's only beginning. There's currently legislation proposed that would dump the cost overruns onto Seattle (who voted against the tunnel in the first place), so expect more fighting.

I propose a $100 toll for non-Seattle drivers if the overruns are forced on the city. And then the closure of I-5.

Seattle may have voted against the tunnel, but the rest of the Puget Sound wasn't able to voice an opinion at all (not officially at least). Judging by the typical Facebook arm-chair warrior comments on many of the articles from local news stations, many outside of Seattle didn't want the tunnel either (or perhaps wanted it, until it broke down).

I think a more sensible approach would be to toll the tunnel at something like $8 or $10 (more for trucks with more than two axles) until the overrun costs are recuperated, at which point the toll will be lowered to 520-ish levels ($2 to $4).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on April 05, 2017, 10:38:49 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 05, 2017, 10:11:20 AM
Quote from: Bruce on April 05, 2017, 02:32:27 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on April 05, 2017, 12:18:13 AM
Quote from: kkt on April 04, 2017, 05:10:46 PM
Broke through today!  The tunneling machine is through and will move a little forward to the location planned for its dismantling.  Video at:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Bertha-set-to-break-through-tunnel-s-end-Tuesday-11047676.php

Awesome!! Thank God it didn't have any more problems.

It's only beginning. There's currently legislation proposed that would dump the cost overruns onto Seattle (who voted against the tunnel in the first place), so expect more fighting.

I propose a $100 toll for non-Seattle drivers if the overruns are forced on the city. And then the closure of I-5.

Seattle may have voted against the tunnel, but the rest of the Puget Sound wasn't able to voice an opinion at all (not officially at least). Judging by the typical Facebook arm-chair warrior comments on many of the articles from local news stations, many outside of Seattle didn't want the tunnel either (or perhaps wanted it, until it broke down).

I think a more sensible approach would be to toll the tunnel at something like $8 or $10 (more for trucks with more than two axles) until the overrun costs are recuperated, at which point the toll will be lowered to 520-ish levels ($2 to $4).

If they toll the tunnel at $8, nobody would take it.  It would never be paid off because the interest would accumulate faster than it could be paid down.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on April 05, 2017, 10:54:07 AM
Quote from: kkt on April 05, 2017, 10:38:49 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 05, 2017, 10:11:20 AM
Quote from: Bruce on April 05, 2017, 02:32:27 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on April 05, 2017, 12:18:13 AM
Quote from: kkt on April 04, 2017, 05:10:46 PM
Broke through today!  The tunneling machine is through and will move a little forward to the location planned for its dismantling.  Video at:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Bertha-set-to-break-through-tunnel-s-end-Tuesday-11047676.php

Awesome!! Thank God it didn't have any more problems.

It's only beginning. There's currently legislation proposed that would dump the cost overruns onto Seattle (who voted against the tunnel in the first place), so expect more fighting.

I propose a $100 toll for non-Seattle drivers if the overruns are forced on the city. And then the closure of I-5.

Seattle may have voted against the tunnel, but the rest of the Puget Sound wasn't able to voice an opinion at all (not officially at least). Judging by the typical Facebook arm-chair warrior comments on many of the articles from local news stations, many outside of Seattle didn't want the tunnel either (or perhaps wanted it, until it broke down).

I think a more sensible approach would be to toll the tunnel at something like $8 or $10 (more for trucks with more than two axles) until the overrun costs are recuperated, at which point the toll will be lowered to 520-ish levels ($2 to $4).

If they toll the tunnel at $8, nobody would take it.  It would never be paid off because the interest would accumulate faster than it could be paid down.

Not necessarily. The 405 and 167 toll lanes regularly exceed $8 and they still get used. And the tunnel would shave off a good 15 minutes of navigating downtown streets. It wouldn't be worth it all the time, but it would be worth it much of the time. A time of day based tolling system might be better though (like the 520).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on April 05, 2017, 03:48:49 PM
Quote from: Bruce on April 05, 2017, 02:32:27 AM
It's only beginning. There's currently legislation proposed that would dump the cost overruns onto Seattle (who voted against the tunnel in the first place), so expect more fighting.

Yeah, I don't see why just Seattle should have to foot the bill for any overruns.

Quote from: Bruce on April 05, 2017, 02:32:27 AM
I propose a $100 toll for non-Seattle drivers if the overruns are forced on the city. And then the closure of I-5.

I really hope you're not serious.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on April 05, 2017, 04:58:21 PM
Quote from: compdude787 on April 05, 2017, 03:48:49 PM
Yeah, I don't see why just Seattle should have to foot the bill for any overruns.

The state legislature hates Seattle.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Sub-Urbanite on April 05, 2017, 05:27:34 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 05, 2017, 04:58:21 PM

The state legislature hates Seattle.


Yeah. You're a Republican state rep from Kalama, and there are cost overruns to the Seattle tunnel.

What's an easier message to take home to Kalama:

- "You know, the Port of Seattle is really important to our entire state's economy, even here in Kalama. Moving goods in and out of that port supports a lot of industry and our economy as a whole, including the farms that ship grain through our grain terminal, and Seattle-based travelers who stop in our restaurants and gas stations. So we should have to pay some share of keeping Seattle moving."

or

- "Those Seattle people just want a shortcut through downtown, and now they want *us* to pay the bill. Let's tell Seattle where they can shove their cost overruns. Right up Bertha's behind."

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on May 17, 2017, 05:16:14 PM
Video of the tunneling machine cutter head being cut up and lifted out:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Watch-Crews-cut-Seattle-s-Bertha-to-pieces-11136081.php
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on June 10, 2017, 02:07:50 PM
Work progressing steadily at the south portal. WSDOT just threw together this graphic. See the second picture to orient yourself. The design seems to have changed since I last reviewed graphical mock-ups (thought that was a while ago, so to some of you, this may not be new information).

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4218/34395100723_20411a30cf_k.jpg)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsdot.wa.gov%2Fprojects%2Fviaduct%2FMedia%2FDefault%2FDocuments%2FSouth_Portal.jpg&hash=a0ec680348367bd93e1bbb8540a25ff32c1b6e28)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on June 10, 2017, 11:21:15 PM
I think it will definitely be worth all the waiting and headache, like the Big Dig was! :)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on October 20, 2017, 05:31:37 PM
A new drone fly-through video of the tunnel, traveling southbound from portal to portal.

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on October 20, 2017, 10:39:38 PM
I've noticed that, since they finished tunneling, there's been a marked decrease in complaints/angry Facebook posters. I hear Dori Monson talk about the tunnel a lot less than he used to (more "informative" comments than complaints now).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on October 21, 2017, 12:17:34 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 20, 2017, 10:39:38 PM
I've noticed that, since they finished tunneling, there's been a marked decrease in complaints/angry Facebook posters. I hear Dori Monson talk about the tunnel a lot less than he used to (more "informative" comments than complaints now).

When there isn't news, people just aren't as interested. Same goes for other megaprojects...no one was talking about car tabs when the state legislature authorized ST3 in 2015, but now it's blown up into a huge issue.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 03, 2017, 12:16:23 AM
Looks like we have a little over a year to go, chaps. (https://goo.gl/7qHWJM)

The upper roadway is about 90% complete. The north portal, unaffected by Bertha's infidelity, appears to be ready for cars:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic-34.sinclairstoryline.com%2Fresources%2Fmedia%2F7982e78d-82bf-4f51-a632-5da1d4bf67ad-PKGVIADUCTTOUR_frame_3565.jpg&hash=d3a9f0e75f4e11b01cf7b39e81a9103226f4e115)

The lower roadway will be complete next year.

https://twitter.com/mattmarkovich/status/926189881499435009
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on November 03, 2017, 09:41:26 AM
Hey, the sooner the better, right?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on November 03, 2017, 12:55:23 PM
I do hope there will be a sign at the south end of the tunnel indicating what the toll is. Seems rather stupid to put it at the north end. I'd rather have it at the south end, because that way I can get off of 99 if I didn't want to pay the toll.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on November 03, 2017, 04:18:11 PM
Quote from: compdude787 on November 03, 2017, 12:55:23 PM
I do hope there will be a sign at the south end of the tunnel indicating what the toll is. Seems rather stupid to put it at the north end. I'd rather have it at the south end, because that way I can get off of 99 if I didn't want to pay the toll.

Of course there will be a sign at the entrance. The north portal sign is simply to notify drivers how much they will be charged, assuring them that the rate hasn't changed mid-drive.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 03, 2017, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Bruce on November 03, 2017, 04:18:11 PM
Quote from: compdude787 on November 03, 2017, 12:55:23 PM
I do hope there will be a sign at the south end of the tunnel indicating what the toll is. Seems rather stupid to put it at the north end. I'd rather have it at the south end, because that way I can get off of 99 if I didn't want to pay the toll.

Of course there will be a sign at the entrance. The north portal sign is simply to notify drivers how much they will be charged, assuring them that the rate hasn't changed mid-drive.

Well, not necessarily. Neither the 520, nor the Narrows, have any advance price warnings. The only signs are "LAST EXIT BEFORE TOLL".
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on November 03, 2017, 07:35:29 PM
Probably because it depends on so many things.  Pay by mail or electronic, time of day, HOV or SOV.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mrsman on November 05, 2017, 01:47:57 AM
Quote from: kkt on November 03, 2017, 07:35:29 PM
Probably because it depends on so many things.  Pay by mail or electronic, time of day, HOV or SOV.

Not an excuse.  In other states, variable tolls are signed in advance of the entrance so that people know how much they are expected to pay.  The most common tolling scheme is listed:  passenger car, electronic transponder, single occupant.  Of course, trucks, pay by mail will have an extra charge and HOV is likely discounted, but knowing the base fare is usually sufficient for users to gage whether they want to pay the toll or not.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 05, 2017, 02:46:02 PM
The 99 tunnel will be the only toll facility, so far, that may benefit from advance price warnings. The other two facilities (520 and the Narrows) don't have much in the way of alternatives, so it makes no difference when the price is shown.

That in mind, Seattle is looking into a downtown congestion charge. They want to ensure drivers don't detour downtown. You could also achieve this by not posting prices ahead of time. Although that's kind of shady.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on November 05, 2017, 04:03:53 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 05, 2017, 02:46:02 PM
The 99 tunnel will be the only toll facility, so far, that may benefit from advance price warnings. The other two facilities (520 and the Narrows) don't have much in the way of alternatives, so it makes no difference when the price is shown.

That in mind, Seattle is looking into a downtown congestion charge. They want to ensure drivers don't detour downtown. You could also achieve this by not posting prices ahead of time. Although that's kind of shady.

The whole point of the congestion charge is for drivers to not enter downtown. I would think that they would encourage use of the bypass tunnel and post warning signs like London does (no charge listed, just that you will be charged).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: i-215 on November 14, 2017, 07:59:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 05, 2017, 02:46:02 PMThat in mind, Seattle is looking into a downtown congestion charge. They want to ensure drivers don't detour downtown. You could also achieve this by not posting prices ahead of time. Although that's kind of shady.

I know congestion price tolls are sort of the holy grail for urban planners.  But it all gets super shady.

Sidetrack: In 2007 (pre-market crash), I went to a transportation commission meeting for a proposed toll road in Utah.  Goldman Sachs were the financial advisors who discussed the project.  They literally told the commission to "set artificially low toll rates" for 7 years to induce commuting patters ("people will buy houses") and get locked into using the facility.  Goldman suggested the state to double/triple the rates after 7 years once drivers were captive.  After that kind of shadyness, the state is building a freeway instead (it'll take 25 years to build instead of 5, but at least will be free).

I get that Alaskan Way is suuuuuuuuuper expensive and tolling is a must to recoup the cost.  But tolling downtown streets seems a bit... gentrified, perhaps?  It shifts a disproportionally unfair burden onto delivery drivers, taxi services, blue-collar services (plumbers, etc.) to give Amazon workers the benefit of a "nice atmosphere." 
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: JasonOfORoads on November 14, 2017, 08:13:46 PM
Quote from: i-215 on November 14, 2017, 07:59:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 05, 2017, 02:46:02 PMThat in mind, Seattle is looking into a downtown congestion charge. They want to ensure drivers don't detour downtown. You could also achieve this by not posting prices ahead of time. Although that's kind of shady.

I know congestion price tolls are sort of the holy grail for urban planners.  But it all gets super shady.

Sidetrack: In 2007 (pre-market crash), I went to a transportation commission meeting for a proposed toll road in Utah.  Goldman Sachs were the financial advisors who discussed the project.  They literally told the commission to "set artificially low toll rates" for 7 years to induce commuting patters ("people will buy houses") and get locked into using the facility.  Goldman suggested the state to double/triple the rates after 7 years once drivers were captive.  After that kind of shadyness, the state is building a freeway instead (it'll take 25 years to build instead of 5, but at least will be free).

I get that Alaskan Way is suuuuuuuuuper expensive and tolling is a must to recoup the cost.  But tolling downtown streets seems a bit... gentrified, perhaps?  It shifts a disproportionally unfair burden onto delivery drivers, taxi services, blue-collar services (plumbers, etc.) to give Amazon workers the benefit of a "nice atmosphere."

I would be totally fine with congestion pricing downtown if people who lived downtown were exempt. And I don't mean "exempt if you get one of the limited number of passes" -- I mean if you live downtown, you don't pay 100% of the time until you move out of there. Don't think Goldman Sucks would like that too much, but I don't care about their wellbeing.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on November 14, 2017, 09:53:34 PM
Why should the people who live downtown be exempt?  They benefit more than anybody else.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 14, 2017, 10:31:42 PM
Quote from: kkt on November 14, 2017, 09:53:34 PM
Why should the people who live downtown be exempt?  They benefit more than anybody else.

They should still pay the congestion charge, but maybe a discounted rate. The congestion charge is meant to keep people who don't need to go downtown from going there. Residents have no choice but to go downtown.

The discount should only apply to one vehicle, though.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mrsman on November 15, 2017, 07:59:20 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 14, 2017, 10:31:42 PM
Quote from: kkt on November 14, 2017, 09:53:34 PM
Why should the people who live downtown be exempt?  They benefit more than anybody else.

They should still pay the congestion charge, but maybe a discounted rate. The congestion charge is meant to keep people who don't need to go downtown from going there. Residents have no choice but to go downtown.

The discount should only apply to one vehicle, though.

In many cities, congestion charges that apply or are proposed are meant to encourage people who don't need to be downtown to bypass it and for those who do go downtown to alter their travel behavior to avoid the charge (i.e. either go at off-peak times or take transit.).  This is absolutely the motivation in Stockholm and London.

The proposed NYC congestion charge is meant to charge a higher toll to reach Manhattan than to take a bridge to go around.  For instance, right now, a driver can drive from Queens to NJ for free via midtown Manhattan but would pay a toll if they took the Triboro Bridge and GWB and bypassed midtown Manhattan.  The congestion charge plan would make the Triboro Bridge's toll cheaper than the toll through Midtown.  So it will encourage bypassing.  Furthermore, for those who do need to reach the center of town, part of the justification for higher tolls is that there is a decent transit option (direct subway lines).

For  Seattle, I can't see any consensus to have a wide-ranging downtown-wide congestion charge.  But if they do, they should heavily reduce (but not exempt) Downtown residents from the charge, but downtown office workers should pay the full charge, since they can leave their cars at home and take transit.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: JasonOfORoads on November 16, 2017, 10:59:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 14, 2017, 10:31:42 PM
Quote from: kkt on November 14, 2017, 09:53:34 PM
Why should the people who live downtown be exempt?  They benefit more than anybody else.

They should still pay the congestion charge, but maybe a discounted rate. The congestion charge is meant to keep people who don't need to go downtown from going there. Residents have no choice but to go downtown.

Which is exactly why they shouldn't pay at all.

Quote from: jakeroot on November 14, 2017, 10:31:42 PM
[The discount should only apply to one vehicle, though.

I would agree to one vehicle per person. Therefore, a couple could have two cars free, but any cars above two would be subjected to the charge.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 16, 2017, 11:06:13 PM
I am against congestion charges entirely but to me if they were to happen letting downtown residents be exempt from the charges would seem like a no brainer.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 17, 2017, 02:55:06 AM
Quote from: JasonOfORoads on November 16, 2017, 10:59:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 14, 2017, 10:31:42 PM
The discount should only apply to one vehicle, though.

I would agree to one vehicle per person. Therefore, a couple could have two cars free, but any cars above two would be subjected to the charge.

My thought with "one vehicle per person" is that public transit in Downtown Seattle is so good, you really don't need a car at all to begin with. No reason to make it easier to own more than one car.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on November 17, 2017, 10:58:12 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 17, 2017, 02:55:06 AM
Quote from: JasonOfORoads on November 16, 2017, 10:59:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 14, 2017, 10:31:42 PM
The discount should only apply to one vehicle, though.

I would agree to one vehicle per person. Therefore, a couple could have two cars free, but any cars above two would be subjected to the charge.

My thought with "one vehicle per person" is that public transit in Downtown Seattle is so good, you really don't need a car at all to begin with. No reason to make it easier to own more than one car.
Until two people have to go two different directions for two different reasons.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on November 18, 2017, 01:56:06 AM
I don't understand the need for a congestion charge in Downtown Seattle. It's nowhere near as needed as it is in London.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 18, 2017, 02:07:18 AM
Quote from: Alps on November 17, 2017, 10:58:12 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 17, 2017, 02:55:06 AM
Quote from: JasonOfORoads on November 16, 2017, 10:59:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 14, 2017, 10:31:42 PM
The discount should only apply to one vehicle, though.

I would agree to one vehicle per person. Therefore, a couple could have two cars free, but any cars above two would be subjected to the charge.

My thought with "one vehicle per person" is that public transit in Downtown Seattle is so good, you really don't need a car at all to begin with. No reason to make it easier to own more than one car.

Until two people have to go two different directions for two different reasons.

Assuming they live downtown because that's where they work, it's safe to assume that going two different directions would be rather rare. And when that does occur, there's almost certainly a bus or train they can take. Public transit in downtown Seattle is by far the best in Washington State. There's a bus heading pretty much anywhere you can think of.

Worst case scenario, it wouldn't be illegal to own two cars. However, it might be difficult even without the toll, simply because not all buildings have parking (and the ones that do often have only one stall per unit). The transit and walking/cycling access is so good downtown, you really don't need to own a car. You can rent a car for the extremely rare occasions you might need one.

Quote from: compdude787 on November 18, 2017, 01:56:06 AM
I don't understand the need for a congestion charge in Downtown Seattle. It's nowhere near as needed as it is in London.

The congestion charge is simply a way to ensure drivers don't detour from the 99 tunnel. A small congestion charge would probably prevent most detours, but wouldn't deter those that need to go downtown.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on November 18, 2017, 04:16:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 18, 2017, 02:07:18 AM

The congestion charge is simply a way to ensure drivers don't detour from the 99 tunnel. A small congestion charge would probably prevent most detours, but wouldn't deter those that need to go downtown.

Given the amount of lights you have to go thru on downtown surface streets, I'm pretty sure most people won't use surface streets to detour from the tunnel because it wouldn't be worth their time.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 18, 2017, 04:41:01 PM
Quote from: compdude787 on November 18, 2017, 04:16:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 18, 2017, 02:07:18 AM
The congestion charge is simply a way to ensure drivers don't detour from the 99 tunnel. A small congestion charge would probably prevent most detours, but wouldn't deter those that need to go downtown.

Given the amount of lights you have to go thru on downtown surface streets, I'm pretty sure most people won't use surface streets to detour from the tunnel because it wouldn't be worth their time.

I think you'll find that long-distance travellers, especially tourists, would likely stay on 99. But locals know that the lights are timed pretty well, and, if you time things right, you can from one side of downtown to the other pretty quick. Unless it's rush hour.

While I'm more than likely pro-congestion charge, I'd like to see SDOT hold off implementing it until we know whether or not detours are an actual issue.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 15, 2017, 06:15:59 PM
I've never been to Seattle, but I will add my two cents here. The overnight rates seem fine, but I think the rush hour rates are a bit too low. I'd think more along the lines of a flat $3 is better.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/talks-start-on-highway-99-tunnel-tolls-under-seattle-how-high-should-they-go/?utm_content=bufferac7a6&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 15, 2017, 06:47:55 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 15, 2017, 06:15:59 PM
I've neber been to Seattle, but I will add my two cents here. The overnight rates seem fine, but I think the rush hour rates are a bit too low. I'd think more along the lines of a flat $3 is better.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/talks-start-on-highway-99-tunnel-tolls-under-seattle-how-high-should-they-go/?utm_content=bufferac7a6&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

They have to be careful. Unlike the 520 and Narrows bridges, there's plenty of alternatives to the 99 tunnel. If the price is too high, people will divert to surface streets, and clog them up. If the price is too low, they won't make back the part of the funding that's being sourced from tolls (not for a really long time, at least).

That said, their current suggestions do seem low. I'd be happy with peak hour tolls from $3 to $3.50 (+ $1 for licence plate tolling).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 16, 2017, 04:44:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 15, 2017, 06:47:55 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 15, 2017, 06:15:59 PM
I've neber been to Seattle, but I will add my two cents here. The overnight rates seem fine, but I think the rush hour rates are a bit too low. I'd think more along the lines of a flat $3 is better.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/talks-start-on-highway-99-tunnel-tolls-under-seattle-how-high-should-they-go/?utm_content=bufferac7a6&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

They have to be careful. Unlike the 520 and Narrows bridges, there's plenty of alternatives to the 99 tunnel. If the price is too high, people will divert to surface streets, and clog them up. If the price is too low, they won't make back the part of the funding that's being sourced from tolls (not for a really long time, at least).

That said, their current suggestions do seem low. I'd be happy with peak hour tolls from $3 to $3.50 (+ $1 for licence plate tolling).

Drivers are already diverting to the surface streets anyway, since the tunnel lacks the downtown exits that make the viaduct useful. Charging a premium and advertising it as a bypass to SLU would probably be fine.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 11, 2018, 05:32:29 PM
WSDOT/STP indicate the tunnel may open a couple months early, around October or November, instead of January 2019.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/library/advisories-and-updates/looking-forward-to-a-busy-2018

Quote from: Seattle Tunnel Partners/WSDOT
STP made great progress last year. They finished tunneling, disassembled the tunneling machine and completed the southbound (upper) roadway inside the tunnel. Based on STP's newest schedule (PDF), the tunnel could open to drivers as soon as this fall. Our goal is to safely open the tunnel to traffic as quickly as possible and begin removing the Alaskan Way Viaduct, but it's too early to accurately predict a tunnel opening date. Safety and quality remain our top priorities, and will continue to guide all work on the program.

The new schedule indicates substantial completion by 14 August, with physical completion on 12 December. The Milestone/Final completion would not be until April 2019.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Algorithm on January 14, 2018, 02:37:16 PM
Do we know what the eventual routing of SR-519 will look like?  Is it going to stay on 1st until Dearborn, or will it be moved onto the Alaskan Way overpass?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 14, 2018, 08:10:26 PM
Quote from: Algorithm on January 14, 2018, 02:37:16 PM
Do we know what the eventual routing of SR-519 will look like?  Is it going to stay on 1st until Dearborn, or will it be moved onto the Alaskan Way overpass?

I think SR 519 will remain more or less on its current route, using 1st until Dearborn, then switching to the restored Alaskan Way between Dearborn and Yesler. The City is going to discourage driving on 1st north of Jackson once the streetcar (which will have exclusive lanes) opens in 2020.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 04:35:50 PM
New "satellite" photos of the portals, courtesy WSDOT Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/).

Almost done with the north portal...

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4722/40402535082_6d5d4a5bf1_k.jpg)

And the south portal...bit more work to do here...

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4630/25575381127_6018c55f4a_k.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 28, 2018, 05:43:20 PM
My prediction is this will be the last deep-bored road tunnel to be constructed in the United States. Given that other tunnels (Gowanus Tunnel, 710 extension) have gone down in flames, I'd be very surprised if any more are constructed. I would love for more road tunnels like this one to be constructed, but given the expense (and in 710's case, NIMBYS), and other factors, I don't see any more being built.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on February 28, 2018, 06:58:25 PM
Ever?  There's other places they could happen, when the combination of need and money and cooperative neighbors all come together.
Examples: routing CA 1 away from the coast on another problematic landslide area, I-90 might get tunneled through Snoqualmie Pass to avoid the worst of the weather near the summit, moving a segment of US 101 away from the Eel River to avoid a particular landslide area or to avoid Richardson Grove...
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Hurricane Rex on March 02, 2018, 04:02:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 28, 2018, 05:43:20 PM
My prediction is this will be the last deep-bored road tunnel to be constructed in the United States. Given that other tunnels (Gowanus Tunnel, 710 extension) have gone down in flames, I'd be very surprised if any more are constructed. I would love for more road tunnels like this one to be constructed, but given the expense (and in 710's case, NIMBYS), and other factors, I don't see anymore being built.

There have been ideas to tunnel I-5 in downtown Portland.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on March 02, 2018, 05:45:01 PM
Portland is one of the last places I expect a road tunnel to be built. Building light rail, densifying all of its neighborhoods, and letting the roads become hopelessly gridlocked has been Portland's main goal, from what I've heard. Although nobody can accurately predict the future (least of all me), I feel pretty confident with my prediction that few to no road tunnels will be built. As I said before, I would love if more road tunnels were built, but given the expense, and the strong opposition from NIMBYs, I'm not confident about more road tunnels being built, at least in this country.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on March 02, 2018, 06:24:17 PM
I think road tunnels will be more common through the US, but I think that time is a long time away. I think a major shift in the way this country operates is on the horizon.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on March 02, 2018, 10:39:23 PM
A few aerial images posted by WSDOT on Flickr:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4630/25575381127_1e8d82788d_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EY1vM2)
South tunnel portal and downtown Seattle (https://flic.kr/p/EY1vM2) by Washington State Dept of Transportation (https://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4662/25572819657_7cbd43952a_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EXMokK)
The SR 99 tunnel's south portal (https://flic.kr/p/EXMokK) by Washington State Dept of Transportation (https://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4722/40402535082_f11ff97605_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24yey5s)
Aerial view of north tunnel portal (https://flic.kr/p/24yey5s) by Washington State Dept of Transportation (https://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4617/40443873931_66eff92103_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24BTqFe)
The changing landscape at the SR 99 tunnel's north portal (https://flic.kr/p/24BTqFe) by Washington State Dept of Transportation (https://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/), on Flickr





(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4672/39547663045_60005e69b3_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23fG7pp)
Bird's eye view of the Alaskan Way Viaduct (https://flic.kr/p/23fG7pp) by Washington State Dept of Transportation (https://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4669/39547631725_17a9d026fb_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23fFX6p)
Seattle's Alaskan Way Viaduct (https://flic.kr/p/23fFX6p) by Washington State Dept of Transportation (https://www.flickr.com/photos/wsdot/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on March 03, 2018, 03:21:12 AM
Quote from: Bruce on March 02, 2018, 10:39:23 PM
A few aerial images posted by WSDOT on Flickr:

I posted two of these above already, but thank you for posting the rest.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: skluth on March 28, 2018, 04:09:40 PM
Headline: WSDOT hopes for October opening of Seattle SR 99 tunnel

http://www.king5.com/article/news/local/seattle/wsdot-hopes-for-october-opening-of-seattle-sr-99-tunnel/281-532553049

Just an FYI
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on March 28, 2018, 06:48:23 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 28, 2018, 04:09:40 PM
Headline: WSDOT hopes for October opening of Seattle SR 99 tunnel

http://www.king5.com/article/news/local/seattle/wsdot-hopes-for-october-opening-of-seattle-sr-99-tunnel/281-532553049

Just an FYI

Woo!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on March 28, 2018, 07:17:40 PM
I've never been to Seattle and I plan on going this summer to check out the viaduct before it's torn down. I'm debating between driving up there or taking the train and renting a car for the day just to drive the viaduct and maybe tour the Olympic National Forest and then just using transit around Seattle metro. But I really want to check this baby out before she's demolished.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on March 28, 2018, 11:41:29 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 28, 2018, 07:17:40 PM
I've never been to Seattle and I plan on going this summer to check out the viaduct before it's torn down. I'm debating between driving up there or taking the train and renting a car for the day just to drive the viaduct and maybe tour the Olympic National Forest and then just using transit around Seattle metro. But I really want to check this baby out before she's demolished.

If you take the train, I highly recommend signing up for a car share service like ReachNow. It charges by the minute, so you can spend a small amount (say $10) to drive the viaduct and be done with your car...no charges for parking or fuel.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on March 29, 2018, 09:11:44 AM
Although I'm excited to see the tunnel opening soon, I'm going to miss the old viaduct when it is gone. While I know that double-decker bridges are frowned upon these days (and have been since the I-880 disaster almost three decades ago), it offers awesome views of the skyline if you drive in the direction of downtown.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on March 29, 2018, 10:34:48 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 29, 2018, 09:11:44 AM
Although I'm excited to see the tunnel opening soon, I'm going to miss the old viaduct when it is gone. While I know that double-decker bridges are frowned upon these days (and have been since the I-880 disaster almost three decades ago), it offers awesome views of the skyline if you drive in the direction of downtown.

This is the reservation that many citizens also share. The view from the viaduct is really only matched by other buildings along that stretch and the Great Wheel. But when all is said and done, I think the waterfront will be a far more inviting place. I think there's some plans for viewpoints at various places along the future Alaskan Way.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 29, 2018, 11:43:18 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 29, 2018, 09:11:44 AM
Although I'm excited to see the tunnel opening soon, I'm going to miss the old viaduct when it is gone. While I know that double-decker bridges are frowned upon these days (and have been since the I-880 disaster almost three decades ago), it offers awesome views of the skyline if you drive in the direction of downtown.

I never understood this argument. On a rural interstate with no one around, sure you can take in the view.

If I'm driving in a downtown freeway with a lot of cars, I'd be pissed if people weren't paying attention to the road though.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: tribar on March 29, 2018, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on March 29, 2018, 11:43:18 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 29, 2018, 09:11:44 AM
Although I'm excited to see the tunnel opening soon, I'm going to miss the old viaduct when it is gone. While I know that double-decker bridges are frowned upon these days (and have been since the I-880 disaster almost three decades ago), it offers awesome views of the skyline if you drive in the direction of downtown.

I never understood this argument. On a rural interstate with no one around, sure you can take in the view.

If I'm driving in a downtown freeway with a lot of cars, I'd be pissed if people weren't paying attention to the road though.

What? You can still take in the view and and be paying attention. And the OP never even said he was driving.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 29, 2018, 11:59:28 AM
Quote from: tribar on March 29, 2018, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on March 29, 2018, 11:43:18 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 29, 2018, 09:11:44 AM
Although I'm excited to see the tunnel opening soon, I'm going to miss the old viaduct when it is gone. While I know that double-decker bridges are frowned upon these days (and have been since the I-880 disaster almost three decades ago), it offers awesome views of the skyline if you drive in the direction of downtown.

I never understood this argument. On a rural interstate with no one around, sure you can take in the view.

If I'm driving in a downtown freeway with a lot of cars, I'd be pissed if people weren't paying attention to the road though.

What? You can still take in the view and and be paying attention. And the OP never even said he was driving.

:-D

I don't deny that your eyes will invariably see the background mosaic of building and such, don't get me wrong. But you're either paying attention to the road or you're not. Trust me, I see it all the time.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bobby5280 on March 29, 2018, 01:17:44 PM
Quote from: The GhostbusterAlthough nobody can accurately predict the future (least of all me), I feel pretty confident with my prediction that few to no road tunnels will be built. As I said before, I would love if more road tunnels were built, but given the expense, and the strong opposition from NIMBYs, I'm not confident about more road tunnels being built, at least in this country.
Quote from: Plutonic PandaI think road tunnels will be more common through the US, but I think that time is a long time away. I think a major shift in the way this country operates is on the horizon.

Perhaps the "keeping up with the Joneses" factor and growing fear the US will be surpassed by China might do the trick. Already some projects like the bridge/tunnel/artificial island project from Hong Kong International Airport to Macau would be laughably impossible to attempt here in the United States.

Any major infrastructure project in the United States is now mired in legal/bureaucratic paralysis for years to let a bunch of white collar pigs feed at the taxpayers' trough for a long time. When the project is finally let for construction (years or decades later) cost overruns can be counted on exploding the budget. Big shake-ups are needed in both areas. I consider it a sad disgrace how a single highway project, such as I-69 in Texas, will take 30-50 years or longer to build. Meanwhile the same project in China could be finished in less than 10 years even if having to punch through far more challenging terrain. Maybe at some point our nation will get shamed into finally waking up and revolting against the pigs who have been killing America's ability to build big things.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on March 29, 2018, 06:30:45 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on March 29, 2018, 11:43:18 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 29, 2018, 09:11:44 AM
Although I'm excited to see the tunnel opening soon, I'm going to miss the old viaduct when it is gone. While I know that double-decker bridges are frowned upon these days (and have been since the I-880 disaster almost three decades ago), it offers awesome views of the skyline if you drive in the direction of downtown.

I never understood this argument. On a rural interstate with no one around, sure you can take in the view.

If I'm driving in a downtown freeway with a lot of cars, I'd be pissed if people weren't paying attention to the road though.

Lots of people who take the bus or sit shotgun in a carpool appreciate the view.

Luckily, the Colorado/Atlantic overpass has a pretty good view that won't be blocked by new buildings (since it's in the SODO lowrise zone).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on March 29, 2018, 09:09:53 PM
Quote from: Bruce on March 29, 2018, 06:30:45 PM
Luckily, the Colorado/Atlantic overpass has a pretty good view that won't be blocked by new buildings (since it's in the SODO lowrise zone).

Is that lowrise zone more-or-less permanent? Not that I could see that overpass ever being blocked, since it's perpendicular to Hwy 99, and therefore no buildings could conceivably get in the way of a skyline photo. The only real issue with the Colorado/Atlantic Overpass is Terminal 46 being just to its west, blocking the view of the water and the Olympics.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on March 29, 2018, 11:45:26 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 29, 2018, 09:09:53 PM
Quote from: Bruce on March 29, 2018, 06:30:45 PM
Luckily, the Colorado/Atlantic overpass has a pretty good view that won't be blocked by new buildings (since it's in the SODO lowrise zone).

Is that lowrise zone more-or-less permanent? Not that I could see that overpass ever being blocked, since it's perpendicular to Hwy 99, and therefore no buildings could conceivably get in the way of a skyline photo. The only real issue with the Colorado/Atlantic Overpass is Terminal 46 being just to its west, blocking the view of the water and the Olympics.

Pretty much, since the only real obstacles are Pioneer Square and a few blocks along 1st/Occidental that spill over with the same kind of landmark protection. I think the Railroad Avenue corridor could see some new lowrises as part of the waterfront project.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: roadfro on June 18, 2018, 01:56:56 PM
Here's a video I happened to catch that's related to the viaduct replacement project:

An "earthquake-proof" bridge is being constructed as part of a ramp that will take northbound drivers into downtown Seattle. The bridge employs new tech in shape-memory alloy supporting bars and flexible concrete that is designed to allow the bridge to flex in the case of a serious earthquake. It's a first-of-its-kind design. Research for this was done at my alma mater, the University of Nevada, Reno, with the feds endorsing the research and helping to fund the project.

https://youtu.be/1klORMqXNL0

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on June 18, 2018, 03:11:06 PM
Jesus, I hadn't seen that video before. Very impressive! One of those technologies that no one will notice when it works properly (or at all, since who knows when the next earthquake will be). But the research is huge, and I'm glad the technology is being studied for use elsewhere. Not everywhere in Washington is as susceptible to earthquakes as downtown Seattle, but I would imagine that WSDOT will use this construction method at other work sites in the future.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on June 18, 2018, 06:23:50 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 18, 2018, 01:56:56 PM
Here's a video I happened to catch that's related to the viaduct replacement project:

An "earthquake-proof" bridge is being constructed as part of a ramp that will take northbound drivers into downtown Seattle. The bridge employs new tech in shape-memory alloy supporting bars and flexible concrete that is designed to allow the bridge to flex in the case of a serious earthquake. It's a first-of-its-kind design. Research for this was done at my alma mater, the University of Nevada, Reno, with the feds endorsing the research and helping to fund the project.

https://youtu.be/1klORMqXNL0



Flexible metal I can wrap my head around...LOL!  It's the idea of flexible concrete that has me puzzled.  How does that work?

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: silverback1065 on June 18, 2018, 06:38:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 28, 2018, 05:43:20 PM
My prediction is this will be the last deep-bored road tunnel to be constructed in the United States. Given that other tunnels (Gowanus Tunnel, 710 extension) have gone down in flames, I'd be very surprised if any more are constructed. I would love for more road tunnels like this one to be constructed, but given the expense (and in 710's case, NIMBYS), and other factors, I don't see any more being built.

have you heard of the scam Elon Musk sold to Chicago?  :-D
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on June 19, 2018, 09:14:34 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on June 18, 2018, 06:38:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 28, 2018, 05:43:20 PM
My prediction is this will be the last deep-bored road tunnel to be constructed in the United States. Given that other tunnels (Gowanus Tunnel, 710 extension) have gone down in flames, I'd be very surprised if any more are constructed. I would love for more road tunnels like this one to be constructed, but given the expense (and in 710's case, NIMBYS), and other factors, I don't see any more being built.

have you heard of the scam Elon Musk sold to Chicago?  :-D
Oh yeah, I just read that one! IIRC, it would be a high-speed rail tunnel that would connect downtown to O'Hare Airport. And given that this will not be a road tunnel, I agree with the Alaskan Way being the last one built in America for a very long time.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on July 15, 2018, 10:01:17 PM
I can't remember where I saw it, but someone commented on the SR 99 sign gantries on either side of the Battery Street Tunnel, and how one of them will be saved for display.  I like the googlie-type bubbles in the design.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/917/29565800988_dc4e665f91_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/M3Cszs)SR 99 gantry (https://flic.kr/p/M3Cszs) by Arthur Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/116988743@N07/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: qguy on July 15, 2018, 10:43:30 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on July 15, 2018, 10:01:17 PM
I can't remember where I saw it, but someone commented on the SR 99 sign gantries on either side of the Battery Street Tunnel, and how one of them will be saved for display.  I like the googlie-type bubbles in the design.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/917/29565800988_dc4e665f91_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/M3Cszs)SR 99 gantry (https://flic.kr/p/M3Cszs) by Arthur Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/116988743@N07/), on Flickr

Those circular cutouts are borrowed from the aerospace industry, specifically aluminum aircraft design. The cutouts save weight without compromising structural integrity.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on July 15, 2018, 11:12:47 PM
Quote from: qguy on July 15, 2018, 10:43:30 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on July 15, 2018, 10:01:17 PM
I can't remember where I saw it, but someone commented on the SR 99 sign gantries on either side of the Battery Street Tunnel, and how one of them will be saved for display.  I like the googlie-type bubbles in the design.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/917/29565800988_dc4e665f91_z.jpg

Those circular cutouts are borrowed from the aerospace industry, specifically aluminum aircraft design. The cutouts save weight without compromising structural integrity.

Very fitting, considering this area's aviation heritage.




Is that a poster on the back of the middle sign?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 16, 2018, 03:53:13 PM
I hope they preserve the US 99 sign when the Alaskan Way Viaduct is torn down. I'd hate to see it be destroyed. Maybe a roadgeek could purchase the sign, if it were up for sale that is.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: qguy on July 16, 2018, 10:42:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 15, 2018, 11:12:47 PM
Quote from: qguy on July 15, 2018, 10:43:30 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on July 15, 2018, 10:01:17 PM
I can't remember where I saw it, but someone commented on the SR 99 sign gantries on either side of the Battery Street Tunnel, and how one of them will be saved for display.  I like the googlie-type bubbles in the design.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/917/29565800988_dc4e665f91_z.jpg

Those circular cutouts are borrowed from the aerospace industry, specifically aluminum aircraft design. The cutouts save weight without compromising structural integrity.
Very fitting, considering this area's aviation heritage.

I didn't think about that, but you're right. I'm certain that's precisely what it's meant to evoke. With the added benefit that it's functional as well. The punchouts serve the same purpose here. Pluses all around.

It would be a shame to lose such a unique and fitting piece.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Hurricane Rex on July 17, 2018, 07:52:36 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 16, 2018, 03:53:13 PM
I hope they preserve the US 99 sign when the Alaskan Way Viaduct is torn down. I'd hate to see it be destroyed. Maybe a roadgeek could purchase the sign, if it were up for sale that is.

Just a suggestion, could WSDOT put the sign on the SB entrance to the tunnel as it would still make sense there? That would be my vote.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on July 17, 2018, 08:59:08 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on July 17, 2018, 07:52:36 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 16, 2018, 03:53:13 PM
I hope they preserve the US 99 sign when the Alaskan Way Viaduct is torn down. I'd hate to see it be destroyed. Maybe a roadgeek could purchase the sign, if it were up for sale that is.

Just a suggestion, could WSDOT put the sign on the SB entrance to the tunnel as it would still make sense there? That would be my vote.

The sign would be best suited to a place on the new waterfront promenade. Being able to walk up to the sign for pictures is a valuable asset, but the north portal is hard to access by foot.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: US 89 on July 18, 2018, 12:33:11 AM
Quote from: Bruce on July 17, 2018, 08:59:08 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on July 17, 2018, 07:52:36 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 16, 2018, 03:53:13 PM
I hope they preserve the US 99 sign when the Alaskan Way Viaduct is torn down. I'd hate to see it be destroyed. Maybe a roadgeek could purchase the sign, if it were up for sale that is.

Just a suggestion, could WSDOT put the sign on the SB entrance to the tunnel as it would still make sense there? That would be my vote.

The sign would be best suited to a place on the new waterfront promenade. Being able to walk up to the sign for pictures is a valuable asset, but the north portal is hard to access by foot.

The problem with that is that signs of that nature tend to get vandalized beyond recognition. There would need to be extra care taken to ensure that people don't put a bunch of stickers or write graffiti on it.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on July 18, 2018, 12:53:58 AM
Quote from: US 89 on July 18, 2018, 12:33:11 AM
Quote from: Bruce on July 17, 2018, 08:59:08 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on July 17, 2018, 07:52:36 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 16, 2018, 03:53:13 PM
I hope they preserve the US 99 sign when the Alaskan Way Viaduct is torn down. I'd hate to see it be destroyed. Maybe a roadgeek could purchase the sign, if it were up for sale that is.

Just a suggestion, could WSDOT put the sign on the SB entrance to the tunnel as it would still make sense there? That would be my vote.

The sign would be best suited to a place on the new waterfront promenade. Being able to walk up to the sign for pictures is a valuable asset, but the north portal is hard to access by foot.

The problem with that is that signs of that nature tend to get vandalized beyond recognition. There would need to be extra care taken to ensure that people don't put a bunch of stickers or write graffiti on it.
1) coat it with angry bees
2) install showerheads spraying H2SO4 at random angles
3) the closer a person gets to the sign the louder Nickelback plays
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on July 18, 2018, 01:35:09 AM
Here's my idea:

Name one of the waterfront parks "99 Park". Install the BGS overhead on the removed aviation-style gantry, currently on NB 99 at Western, as a welcoming gate.

I could mock it up in SketchUp at some point if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on July 18, 2018, 09:55:17 PM
It's not like hard-to-reach BGSes don't get vandalized all over the place.

If we wanted to be cheeky, you could always put the sign up at Pier 99 (just west of Smith Cove,).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MikieTimT on July 20, 2018, 06:06:50 PM
They should just start putting used gum on it.  Then it becomes art instead of vandalizing!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on July 28, 2018, 11:50:58 AM
I would expect the gantry, along with the still extant US 99 shield downtown to end up at MOHI, or someplace similar.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on August 09, 2018, 01:46:16 AM
Just heard back from WSDOT via e-mail on this subject:

QuoteWhile there are currently no plans to preserve the U.S. Highway 99 sign above the Columbia Street on-ramp, the City and State are working together to determine if there are any additional elements that can be preserved from the viaduct.

That being said, WSDOT has directed the contractor to preserve sign gantries at the ends of the Battery Street Tunnel.

So, it looks like there's some work to be done. Perhaps one of the neighborhood historical societies would be interested in spearheading a preservation effort.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on August 09, 2018, 02:09:11 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 09, 2018, 01:46:16 AM
Just heard back from WSDOT via e-mail on this subject:

QuoteWhile there are currently no plans to preserve the U.S. Highway 99 sign above the Columbia Street on-ramp, the City and State are working together to determine if there are any additional elements that can be preserved from the viaduct.

That being said, WSDOT has directed the contractor to preserve sign gantries at the ends of the Battery Street Tunnel.

So, it looks like there's some work to be done. Perhaps one of the neighborhood historical societies would be interested in spearheading a preservation effort.

Not the best news to hear. I've heard that WSDOT is not keen on giving away signage, apparently because they want it to be recycled. I hope this isn't a case of that, since the last thing that sign needs to be is recycled into a new sign. Definitely glad to hear the space-age gantries will be preserved.

MOHAI would be a great place to relocate the sign. Someone ought to contact them to see if they might be interested in taking it in. Or, if the museum is made up of private collections, if one of the regular donors might be interested.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on August 12, 2018, 02:19:18 PM
Road by the entrance last evening, and noticed they have the interior illuminated already.  Though it looks like they have the possibility of illumination from tube-like structures too, possibly LED, the inside was orange/yellow from sodium vapor lights.  Why put in sodium vapor on a new install?  The sodium vapor lobby must have a tight grip on WSDOT because everyone else uses LED.  The concept artwork for the interior of the tunnel was color balanced as if lit by white LED.  (I had to work six months plus Christmases under sodium vapor when I worked for the United States Postal Service, so I have a particular hatred of them.) :banghead:
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on August 12, 2018, 05:47:26 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on August 12, 2018, 02:19:18 PM
Road by the entrance last evening, and noticed they have the interior illuminated already.  Though it looks like they have the possibility of illumination from tube-like structures too, possibly LED, the inside was orange/yellow from sodium vapor lights.  Why put in sodium vapor on a new install?  The sodium vapor lobby must have a tight grip on WSDOT because everyone else uses LED.  The concept artwork for the interior of the tunnel was color balanced as if lit by white LED.  (I had to work six months plus Christmases under sodium vapor when I worked for the United States Postal Service, so I have a particular hatred of them.) :banghead:

I noticed the lighting myself a few weeks ago. Looked really cool at night, but your concerns are nonetheless valid. They could be LEDs that were modified to look like sodium vapor, though. I've heard bright LEDs are not so great. Check out this thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22927.0

LED signals are not particularly common here either. Compare this new signal in Oregon (https://goo.gl/FmNG3E) to this new signal in Washington (https://goo.gl/ZcE7Da). The Oregon signals are all LED, and appear the same color when not lit. Washington seems to use incandescent signals. Tacoma is the only place that I've seen with full LED signals, and it's only the signals with LED inserts (https://goo.gl/U7hCXV) or new wire-span signals, not new mast-arm installs.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on August 13, 2018, 12:13:27 AM
I remember on my trip to San Diego I saw much tube-shaped yellow street lighting there, as if they put a yellow filter on fluorescent lights to keep the bug attractions down.  I don't know why that's necessary in the tunnel.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on August 20, 2018, 05:11:09 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 12, 2018, 05:47:26 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on August 12, 2018, 02:19:18 PM
Road by the entrance last evening, and noticed they have the interior illuminated already.  Though it looks like they have the possibility of illumination from tube-like structures too, possibly LED, the inside was orange/yellow from sodium vapor lights.  Why put in sodium vapor on a new install?  The sodium vapor lobby must have a tight grip on WSDOT because everyone else uses LED.  The concept artwork for the interior of the tunnel was color balanced as if lit by white LED.  (I had to work six months plus Christmases under sodium vapor when I worked for the United States Postal Service, so I have a particular hatred of them.) :banghead:

I noticed the lighting myself a few weeks ago. Looked really cool at night, but your concerns are nonetheless valid. They could be LEDs that were modified to look like sodium vapor, though. I've heard bright LEDs are not so great. Check out this thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22927.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22927.0)

LED signals are not particularly common here either. Compare this new signal in Oregon (https://goo.gl/FmNG3E) to this new signal in Washington (https://goo.gl/ZcE7Da). The Oregon signals are all LED, and appear the same color when not lit. Washington seems to use incandescent signals. Tacoma is the only place that I've seen with full LED signals, and it's only the signals with LED inserts (https://goo.gl/U7hCXV) or new wire-span signals, not new mast-arm installs.


There are a lot of Washington installs that are LEDs.  Some are using colored drivers, others are using white, with colored lenses.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Duke87 on August 23, 2018, 09:08:24 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on August 20, 2018, 05:11:09 PM
There are a lot of Washington installs that are LEDs.  Some are using colored drivers, others are using white, with colored lenses.

It's not the driver that makes the color. It is a combination of the diodes and, if applicable, the phosphor placed over them. "White" LEDs are usually actually blue LEDs with a phosphor coating on the inside of the cap.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on August 23, 2018, 11:27:04 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on August 23, 2018, 09:08:24 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on August 20, 2018, 05:11:09 PM
There are a lot of Washington installs that are LEDs.  Some are using colored drivers, others are using white, with colored lenses.

It's not the driver that makes the color. It is a combination of the diodes and, if applicable, the phosphor placed over them. "White" LEDs are usually actually blue LEDs with a phosphor coating on the inside of the cap.

Either way, I've learned something new. Still wondering why some states do it the former way, and why some the latter. I see the former style (with the phosphor's placed over the cap?) far more often, but some cities and entire states seem to prefer the phosphor coating on the inside.

I'm pretty sure I prefer the latter "inner coating" method (just looks cleaner to me), but I don't suppose it makes any difference, functionally.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on August 23, 2018, 11:37:58 PM
Lanes have been striped in the tunnel, along with emergency markings.

(https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Media/Default/-NewDocuments/AdvisoriesAndUpdates/2018/2018_0821_tunnelupdate_4.jpg)

(https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Media/Default/-NewDocuments/AdvisoriesAndUpdates/2018/2018_0821_tunnelupdate_3.jpg)

(https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Media/Default/-NewDocuments/AdvisoriesAndUpdates/2018/2018_0821_tunnelupdate_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on August 23, 2018, 11:49:22 PM
Interesting that raised-rib markings were used through the tunnel, despite the ample lighting and not-at-all murky conditions. Guess it doesn't hurt, and it's not really that surprising either, since WSDOT has been using this style just about everywhere at this point.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on August 24, 2018, 12:12:03 AM
Whereas I find it interesting that they put the wide shoulder on the left instead of the right. I guess it corresponds to where they put the emergency exits.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on August 24, 2018, 01:52:38 AM
Quote from: Alps on August 24, 2018, 12:12:03 AM
Whereas I find it interesting that they put the wide shoulder on the left instead of the right. I guess it corresponds to where they put the emergency exits.

That's a good observation; I think you're onto something. Better to funnel pedestrians in the wider section, obviously. Cars should be stopped, but you never know what kind of emergency could be going on down below.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on August 24, 2018, 07:04:54 AM
No tiles, like other new tunnels such as the Midtown Tunnel in Norfolk.   Modern LED lighting is so bright that the fireproofing material panels have sufficient reflectivity.

What kind of ventilation system?  I don't see jet fans in those photos.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on August 24, 2018, 11:39:35 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 24, 2018, 07:04:54 AM
No tiles, like other new tunnels such as the Midtown Tunnel in Norfolk.   Modern LED lighting is so bright that the fireproofing material panels have sufficient reflectivity.

What kind of ventilation system?  I don't see jet fans in those photos.

The four yellow exhaust pipes you see in the middle distance of the upper photo are atop the ventilation building.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on August 25, 2018, 12:14:10 AM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on August 24, 2018, 11:39:35 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 24, 2018, 07:04:54 AM
No tiles, like other new tunnels such as the Midtown Tunnel in Norfolk.   Modern LED lighting is so bright that the fireproofing material panels have sufficient reflectivity.

What kind of ventilation system?  I don't see jet fans in those photos.

The four yellow exhaust pipes you see in the middle distance of the upper photo are atop the ventilation building.

Also note, in the image below, the vents on the left. These suck air out through a central ventilation system to the aforementioned exhaust stacks:

Quote from: Bruce on August 23, 2018, 11:37:58 PM
(https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Media/Default/-NewDocuments/AdvisoriesAndUpdates/2018/2018_0821_tunnelupdate_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: silverback1065 on August 25, 2018, 11:28:30 PM
when will this be open
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on August 26, 2018, 01:20:29 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 25, 2018, 11:28:30 PM
when will this be open


October-ish. The opening date won't be announced for a few more weeks.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: edwaleni on August 27, 2018, 12:13:22 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 28, 2018, 05:43:20 PM
My prediction is this will be the last deep-bored road tunnel to be constructed in the United States. Given that other tunnels (Gowanus Tunnel, 710 extension) have gone down in flames, I'd be very surprised if any more are constructed. I would love for more road tunnels like this one to be constructed, but given the expense (and in 710's case, NIMBYS), and other factors, I don't see any more being built.

Same prediction they made about the 1975 Cadillac Fleetwood Convertible. "Last of its kind" they said.

Meanwhile the Boring Company is bidding on several proposed tunnels across the US. I think its the opposite.  We will see more of them built.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on August 27, 2018, 02:11:31 AM
Is there a new name for this tunnel? Or is WSDOT just going to name it "SR 99 tunnel" or "Alaskan Way Viaduct replacement tunnel"?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on August 27, 2018, 05:10:34 AM
A name has not been announced. Most guesses boil down to naming it for a governor (Gregoire, Locke, or perhaps the late Spellman), for Alaskan Way, or something city-specific.

I'm in favor of calling it the Bertha Knight Landes Tunnel, as it would properly honor the mayor and the TBM, but the duplicity might not work for some people.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on August 27, 2018, 10:32:48 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on August 27, 2018, 12:13:22 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 28, 2018, 05:43:20 PM
My prediction is this will be the last deep-bored road tunnel to be constructed in the United States. Given that other tunnels (Gowanus Tunnel, 710 extension) have gone down in flames, I'd be very surprised if any more are constructed. I would love for more road tunnels like this one to be constructed, but given the expense (and in 710's case, NIMBYS), and other factors, I don't see any more being built.

Same prediction they made about the 1975 Cadillac Fleetwood Convertible. "Last of its kind" they said.

Meanwhile the Boring Company is bidding on several proposed tunnels across the US. I think its the opposite.  We will see more of them built.

That is the 1976 Cadillac Eldorado convertible you are referring to.  The Fleetwood in 1975 was a 4-door sedan and never offered as a convertible.

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on August 27, 2018, 12:32:56 PM
The viaduct was named after the street it parallels, Alaskan Way.

Why not call it the Alaskan Way Tunnel?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on August 27, 2018, 02:52:32 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 27, 2018, 12:32:56 PM
The viaduct was named after the street it parallels, Alaskan Way.

Why not call it the Alaskan Way Tunnel?

It's not the same corridor and the viaduct's reputation is not something that anyone wants to stick onto the new tunnel (despite its own reputation).

"Waterfront Tunnel" would be a safe, generic name.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on August 27, 2018, 04:01:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 27, 2018, 12:32:56 PM
The viaduct was named after the street it parallels, Alaskan Way.

Why not call it the Alaskan Way Tunnel?

I like that name.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on August 27, 2018, 04:34:38 PM
"Aurora Tunnel" would make more sense, since it has more to do with that road than Alaskan Way. Aurora Ave is the natural extension of the road after the tunnel.

There is no name for the freeway north of East Marginal Way, otherwise, I'd suggest "East Marginal Tunnel".

"Waterfront Tunnel" might be too generic.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on August 27, 2018, 06:34:07 PM
Quote from: Bruce on August 27, 2018, 02:52:32 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 27, 2018, 12:32:56 PM
The viaduct was named after the street it parallels, Alaskan Way.
Why not call it the Alaskan Way Tunnel?
It's not the same corridor and the viaduct's reputation is not something that anyone wants to stick onto the new tunnel (despite its own reputation).
"Waterfront Tunnel" would be a safe, generic name.

It curves away from the waterfront as it heads north. 

Perhaps Downtown Tunnel would be appropriate.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on August 27, 2018, 06:39:27 PM
"Downtown Tunnel" would refer to the Downtown Transit Tunnel, completed in 1990 and carrying more people than the projections for the SR 99 Tunnel.

I'd rather save "Aurora Tunnel" for the future light rail tunnel that will inevitably built in the 2040s to replace the E Line.

I feel like we'll get a mix of names...a memorial designation + "Waterfront" as a suffix. "John Spellman Waterfront Tunnel" doesn't sound too wordy and has good shortened forms.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on August 27, 2018, 06:59:55 PM
They could just call it the Route 99 Tunnel.

Given that it has aboveground sections as well, maybe just call the whole facility the North-South Downtown Expressway.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on August 27, 2018, 07:52:48 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 27, 2018, 04:01:58 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 27, 2018, 12:32:56 PM
The viaduct was named after the street it parallels, Alaskan Way.

Why not call it the Alaskan Way Tunnel?

I like that name.
I get the feeling most people will call it this; like Tappan Zee, people get used to names.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Rothman on August 27, 2018, 07:57:18 PM
Bertha's Hole.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on August 27, 2018, 11:23:31 PM
Ken Griffey Jr Drive
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on August 28, 2018, 12:19:35 AM
The Time Tunnel!  Irwin Allen would love that...

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on August 28, 2018, 12:44:58 AM
What is going to happen with the pre-existing Route 99 tunnel under Battery Street?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on August 28, 2018, 01:00:16 AM
Quote from: Beltway on August 28, 2018, 12:44:58 AM
What is going to happen with the pre-existing Route 99 tunnel under Battery Street?

As part of the viaduct demolition, the tunnel will be filled in...
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on August 28, 2018, 01:56:57 AM
The Battery Street Tunnel is just too expensive to maintain or retrofit. It was built in a hurry and without modern safety systems (fire suppression, communication, lights, earthquake engineering, etc.).

Some groups have wanted to retain it for pedestrian/bicycle use, but it's not really a good fit. One group of architects proposed tearing Battery Street open and creating an understreet park, which would be awesome but a huge logistical/security/accessibility nightmare.

(https://i.imgur.com/KoaK84p.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on August 28, 2018, 05:44:56 AM
That would be really cool. Yes there are issues but build it and deal with it! That'd instantly be a landmark like the high line.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on August 28, 2018, 06:21:17 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 28, 2018, 01:56:57 AM
The Battery Street Tunnel is just too expensive to maintain or retrofit. It was built in a hurry and without modern safety systems (fire suppression, communication, lights, earthquake engineering, etc.).

It will be expensive to backfill 6 blocks of tunnel --

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Contents/Item/Display/485

The Battery Street Tunnel was constructed in the 1950s and is at the end of its useful life.  WSDOT's final environmental document for the program included decommissioning (filling and sealing) the tunnel, and so WSDOT has a legal obligation to implement that plan.

Community ideas have been proposed for alternative uses for the tunnel.  However, given the age and condition of the structure, it would need significant and costly structural and system upgrades in order to be safe for other uses.  WSDOT will be decommissioning the tunnel as part of a design-build contract that also includes demolishing the viaduct and connecting surface streets at the tunnel's north portal.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on August 28, 2018, 09:46:10 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 28, 2018, 01:56:57 AM
One group of architects proposed tearing Battery Street open and creating an understreet park, which would be awesome but a huge logistical/security/accessibility nightmare.

(https://i.imgur.com/KoaK84p.jpg)

I would be worried about light levels with such high walls.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: 707 on August 29, 2018, 03:00:31 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 28, 2018, 09:46:10 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 28, 2018, 01:56:57 AM
One group of architects proposed tearing Battery Street open and creating an understreet park, which would be awesome but a huge logistical/security/accessibility nightmare.

(https://i.imgur.com/KoaK84p.jpg)

I would be worried about light levels with such high walls.

I wouldn't put it past the city to actually do that. At this day and age, Seattle doesn't care about logistics, real economics or car traffic. Just ask the businesses that are going to be forced to close down in Ballard thanks to the recent Burke Gilman Trail developments. Also the tons of streets they "dieted".
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on August 29, 2018, 06:03:48 PM
Quote from: 707 on August 29, 2018, 03:00:31 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 28, 2018, 09:46:10 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 28, 2018, 01:56:57 AM
One group of architects proposed tearing Battery Street open and creating an understreet park, which would be awesome but a huge logistical/security/accessibility nightmare.

https://i.imgur.com/KoaK84p.jpg

I would be worried about light levels with such high walls.

I wouldn't put it past the city to actually do that. At this day and age, Seattle doesn't care about logistics, real economics or car traffic. Just ask the businesses that are going to be forced to close down in Ballard thanks to the recent Burke Gilman Trail developments. Also the tons of streets they "dieted".

Modifications made to city streets are consistent with policy choices made by city and state agencies. Speaking from first hand experience, traffic in the city is no worse than 7 years ago. Also speaking from experience (half my family lives in metro Phoenix), walking around Phoenix is nowhere near as nice as walking around Seattle. And, it's much more enjoyable these days, thanks to all the road diets which have reduced crashes and injuries. Also, keep in mind that only a minority of downtown employees drive themselves to work. Catering to SOV is short-sighted.

The BGT is, effectively, a bike/ped superhighway; its existence is non-negotiable. What business closings are you referring to?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on August 29, 2018, 08:31:09 PM
Quote from: 707 on August 29, 2018, 03:00:31 PM
I wouldn't put it past the city to actually do that. At this day and age, Seattle doesn't care about logistics, real economics or car traffic. Just ask the businesses that are going to be forced to close down in Ballard thanks to the recent Burke Gilman Trail developments. Also the tons of streets they "dieted".

Funny, I do business in Ballard and haven't heard a single credible source about businesses being forced to close down because of the Missing Link of the BGT...which hasn't even begun construction despite the 20-year legal fight and many, many studies to get it built. Lower Ballard is being redeveloped into an urban center, but that's independent of the trail and has nothing to do with the propaganda being spread by anti-bike activists in the area.

The road diets have done little to harm traffic, according to data and anecdotal experiences from residents and businesses living on 23rd, Westlake, or Rainier in Columbia City. In fact, the only people complaining about diets either (a) don't live in the area, (b) only drive in for occasional business, or (c) are just opposed to road diets in general without considering the actual feelings of residents and businesses. Considering that pedestrians and cyclists still die due to drivers plowing into them at marked, well-lit crosswalks, the diets are wholly necessary.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: 707 on August 30, 2018, 02:24:53 PM
I thought I heard some of the martime industrial businesses next to the BGT were going to suffer from this due to having yo take up costly insurance policies they otherwise wouldn't need to have, should God forbid, one of the delivery trucks supplying the warehouses accidentally hit a cyclist. I talked to an economist over this issue and he stated the cost of the insurance and resulting lawsuits from cyclists rendezvousing with the trucks would be too much for the businesses to handle and they would have to close down shop. From experience living in Seattle I remember some cyclists dont pay attention and get into trouble a lot with cars, but the end result is usually the same: the driver ends up the guilty party even if they did nothing wrong. Granted there are bad drivers out there too who actually dont pay attention and harm innocent cyclists. I won't deny that. To get back on track, basically the economist described the BGT as being an unneeded liability for them. Not sure where he got his info, but usually the economist in question is a trustable source. He did know the owner of Ballard Oil for several years.

VS988
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on August 30, 2018, 04:32:02 PM
God forbid delivery drivers have to take extra precaution.

Regardless, that's a dumb reason, since there's cyclists all over Seattle, and this is the first I've heard of such an issue.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: silverback1065 on August 30, 2018, 07:38:30 PM
Quote from: Bruce on August 29, 2018, 08:31:09 PM
Quote from: 707 on August 29, 2018, 03:00:31 PM
I wouldn't put it past the city to actually do that. At this day and age, Seattle doesn't care about logistics, real economics or car traffic. Just ask the businesses that are going to be forced to close down in Ballard thanks to the recent Burke Gilman Trail developments. Also the tons of streets they "dieted".

Funny, I do business in Ballard and haven't heard a single credible source about businesses being forced to close down because of the Missing Link of the BGT...which hasn't even begun construction despite the 20-year legal fight and many, many studies to get it built. Lower Ballard is being redeveloped into an urban center, but that's independent of the trail and has nothing to do with the propaganda being spread by anti-bike activists in the area.

The road diets have done little to harm traffic, according to data and anecdotal experiences from residents and businesses living on 23rd, Westlake, or Rainier in Columbia City. In fact, the only people complaining about diets either (a) don't live in the area, (b) only drive in for occasional business, or (c) are just opposed to road diets in general without considering the actual feelings of residents and businesses. Considering that pedestrians and cyclists still die due to drivers plowing into them at marked, well-lit crosswalks, the diets are wholly necessary.

your second paragraph can be used to describe almost every nimby opposition i've come across
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on August 30, 2018, 08:09:00 PM
Yeah, NIMBY is a bit of a misnomer. It's more like Not in My General Vicinity or Affecting My Lifestyle (NIMGVAML?) and can bring in suburban folks who oppose transit/bicycling at an ideological level into many hyperlocal fights.

So far the only alternative plans for the BGT Missing Link have involved routing cyclists onto a parallel street with even more truck traffic and a few blind turns (which would be much worse for all parties) or just not building it, which is also a non-option after 20 years of doing nothing (https://www.seattlemet.com/articles/2018/6/19/the-battle-over-the-burke-gilman-trail).

The gap is very short and uses the most logical route, especially when you consider that most of Ballard sits uphill from the trail proper.

(https://static.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/864a754e-fe16-11e6-b7db-cf5a21f6ea9a-960x640.jpg)

The Shilshole plan is a huge improvement over the current situation, trading perpendicular parking for a wider shoulder that allows trucks to make the wide turns into driveways (which will have signs for trail users to yield to trucks). The only loss is, of course, the parking, which is where the main opposition lies (not behind the bullshit truck excuse).

(https://i.imgur.com/D2Gs3OW.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on September 04, 2018, 03:22:38 AM
Any news on the date of opening yet? I've been trying to find it but all I'm getting is sources from months ago saying it'll open in October. That's an entire month span so I don't know when it'll be specifically.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 04, 2018, 08:18:20 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 04, 2018, 03:22:38 AM
Any news on the date of opening yet? I've been trying to find it but all I'm getting is sources from months ago saying it'll open in October. That's an entire month span so I don't know when it'll be specifically.

No precise date yet.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 04, 2018, 04:48:55 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 04, 2018, 08:18:20 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 04, 2018, 03:22:38 AM
Any news on the date of opening yet? I've been trying to find it but all I'm getting is sources from months ago saying it'll open in October. That's an entire month span so I don't know when it'll be specifically.

No precise date yet.
is there an exact date the Alaskan Way Viaduct will be shut down? I want to make sure I see it before it closes.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on September 04, 2018, 06:32:02 PM
The viaduct will likely be closed the weekend after the tunnel opens, if not a little later than that to make sure the tunnel is working smoothly. The viaduct won't be demolished until spring/summer of next year, though, and there's plenty of places to view the viaduct from.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on September 04, 2018, 11:41:24 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 04, 2018, 06:32:02 PM
The viaduct will likely be closed the weekend after the tunnel opens, if not a little later than that to make sure the tunnel is working smoothly. The viaduct won't be demolished until spring/summer of next year, though, and there's plenty of places to view the viaduct from.

Actually, the viaduct will close three weeks before the tunnel opens (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/realign99).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 05, 2018, 08:47:20 AM
Yeah, they have to close it before the tunnel opens in order to tie together Highway 99 and the tunnel portals.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on September 05, 2018, 09:21:06 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on August 23, 2018, 09:08:24 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on August 20, 2018, 05:11:09 PM
There are a lot of Washington installs that are LEDs.  Some are using colored drivers, others are using white, with colored lenses.

It's not the driver that makes the color. It is a combination of the diodes and, if applicable, the phosphor placed over them. "White" LEDs are usually actually blue LEDs with a phosphor coating on the inside of the cap.
So basically, they use the same treatment as the old mercury vapor lights?

I, for one, can't wait to drive the new tunnel when it opens later on this fall!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on September 05, 2018, 05:46:17 PM
As a reminder, we should coordinate a potential last viaduct meetup / first tunnel meetup together in this thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=23573.0

Would be nice to meet y'all in person for once.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: doorknob60 on September 06, 2018, 06:31:30 PM
Glad I got to drive the viaduct one last time last month. I wasn't originally planning on it, but Waze redirected me to WA-99 as I was approaching Mercer St. around 5:30 PM and I happily obliged (yeah, I'm not sure why it originally wanted me to drive Mercer at that time :pan: I was driving from Ballard to Seaside, OR so there wasn't exactly an easy route though). Its time is up, but I have good memories of it and the views you get driving on it are great. Looking forward to possibly driving the new tunnel next time.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on September 06, 2018, 07:46:13 PM
KIRO Radio is reporting that tolls will be waived for the first few months.

http://mynorthwest.com/1102524/seattle-viaduct-closure-tunnel-status/
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on September 08, 2018, 01:35:28 AM
According to the July schedule, October 1 is the contractor's substantial completion date.

https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Media/Default/-NewDocuments/Schedule/2018/STPSchedule_July2018.pdf
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on September 10, 2018, 07:29:31 PM
I think the viaduct might be closing this weekend:
https://westseattleblog.com/category/highway-99-tunnel/
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 10, 2018, 08:03:31 PM
Looks to be a regular weekend closure. Though a permanent closure is certainly around the corner.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on September 11, 2018, 01:30:02 AM
So last I heard was that commuters would get an announcement one month before the 3 week closure, yet this announcement hasn't happened yet. How is this tunnel going to open in October when 7 weeks from Friday will be November?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: silverback1065 on September 11, 2018, 11:14:16 AM
sounds like aside the cost, this was a great project, you get to keep a highway and have an ugly one removed and allow access to the waterfront.  If tunnels weren't so expensive, this would happen in many downtowns.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on September 11, 2018, 03:30:04 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 11, 2018, 11:14:16 AM
sounds like aside the cost, this was a great project, you get to keep a highway and have an ugly one removed and allow access to the waterfront.  If tunnels weren't so expensive, this would happen in many downtowns.

It really doesn't replace the bulk of the viaduct's traffic (due to the lack of downtown ramps) and really wasn't worth the headache. The Surface + Transit option from the 2000s would have been much better, and we're essentially building it on top of the tunnel anyway (but at a higher cost and much later).

Fingers crossed that a major earthquake (either from the subduction zone or local fault) doesn't strike the viaduct before it's fully demolished. It wouldn't take down the whole waterfront, thanks to the new seawall, but it would still do a lot of damage.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: silverback1065 on September 11, 2018, 03:31:34 PM
There are no exits on the tunnel? Weird
Quote from: Bruce on September 11, 2018, 03:30:04 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 11, 2018, 11:14:16 AM
sounds like aside the cost, this was a great project, you get to keep a highway and have an ugly one removed and allow access to the waterfront.  If tunnels weren't so expensive, this would happen in many downtowns.

It really doesn't replace the bulk of the viaduct's traffic (due to the lack of downtown ramps) and really wasn't worth the headache. The Surface + Transit option from the 2000s would have been much better, and we're essentially building it on top of the tunnel anyway (but at a higher cost and much later).

Fingers crossed that a major earthquake (either from the subduction zone or local fault) doesn't strike the viaduct before it's fully demolished. It wouldn't take down the whole waterfront, thanks to the new seawall, but it would still do a lot of damage.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 11, 2018, 04:42:59 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 11, 2018, 03:30:04 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 11, 2018, 11:14:16 AM
sounds like aside the cost, this was a great project, you get to keep a highway and have an ugly one removed and allow access to the waterfront.  If tunnels weren't so expensive, this would happen in many downtowns.

It really doesn't replace the bulk of the viaduct's traffic (due to the lack of downtown ramps) and really wasn't worth the headache. The Surface + Transit option from the 2000s would have been much better, and we're essentially building it on top of the tunnel anyway (but at a higher cost and much later).

Fingers crossed that a major earthquake (either from the subduction zone or local fault) doesn't strike the viaduct before it's fully demolished. It wouldn't take down the whole waterfront, thanks to the new seawall, but it would still do a lot of damage.

On the plus side, although it would kill many dozens of people, it would at least prove to the non-believers the viability of a tunnel through fill, and its ability to not only stand up in an earthquake, but also be one of the safest places.

Nevertheless, I would prefer a scenario without any death.

Quote from: silverback1065 on September 11, 2018, 03:31:34 PM
There are no exits on the tunnel? Weird

The tunnel was far too deep for any downtown exits to be practical. Plus, the new tunnel includes far better access to Alaskan Way than the current Viaduct. Alaskan Way will basically be the new downtown connector.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Hurricane Rex on September 11, 2018, 08:27:57 PM
The surface+transit option would've been good, but since 99 is used as a bypass of I-5 occasionally, this tunnel was needed for that traffic.

LG-TP260

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on September 11, 2018, 08:39:34 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on September 11, 2018, 08:27:57 PM
The surface+transit option would've been good, but since 99 is used as a bypass of I-5 occasionally, this tunnel was needed for that traffic.

Highway 99 isn't typically used as a bypass for through-traffic, due to the time-consuming east-west connections at the north end to Aurora Avenue. It is useful to the south end, but that was mostly a side-benefit of having a few (but not too many) downtown exits.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 11, 2018, 08:51:29 PM
Why would the surface and transit option have been better if that's what there building anyways on top of this tunnel? The only difference is that option wouldn't haven't included a freeway tunnel?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on September 11, 2018, 08:53:20 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 27, 2018, 12:32:56 PM
The viaduct was named after the street it parallels, Alaskan Way.

Why not call it the Alaskan Way Tunnel?

That's what I've been calling it so far.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 11, 2018, 08:54:51 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 11, 2018, 08:39:34 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on September 11, 2018, 08:27:57 PM
The surface+transit option would've been good, but since 99 is used as a bypass of I-5 occasionally, this tunnel was needed for that traffic.

Highway 99 isn't typically used as a bypass for through-traffic, due to the time-consuming east-west connections at the north end to Aurora Avenue. It is useful to the south end, but that was mostly a side-benefit of having a few (but not too many) downtown exits.

There are no direct east-west routes from Aurora to the 5, but there are plenty of good-enough options for it to still be a feasible route to bypass Seattle to the West. I have used Aurora to bypass the city coming from the north, even though Waze was suggesting I stay on 5. Probably saved about 15 minutes?

I doubt the Port of Seattle would have supported the surface-only option anyways, and I seem to recall them having contributed to funding.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 11, 2018, 08:51:29 PM
Why would the surface and transit option have been better if that's what there building anyways on top of this tunnel? The only difference is that option wouldn't haven't included a freeway tunnel?

Reduced cost, smaller time frame, more consistent with city policy.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on September 11, 2018, 08:57:49 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 11, 2018, 08:39:34 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on September 11, 2018, 08:27:57 PM
The surface+transit option would've been good, but since 99 is used as a bypass of I-5 occasionally, this tunnel was needed for that traffic.

Highway 99 isn't typically used as a bypass for through-traffic, due to the time-consuming east-west connections at the north end to Aurora Avenue. It is useful to the south end, but that was mostly a side-benefit of having a few (but not too many) downtown exits.

The east-west connections at the north end to Aurora Avenue aren't really time consuming, considering that Aurora Avenue is only a mile west of I-5. I often take 99 into Downtown Seattle in the afternoons, just like Jakeroot does. I don't care if it actually saves me time as long as I'm moving faster than 5 miles per hour. I do have a car with a stick shift, so I'd much prefer not to be sitting in stop-and-go traffic.

Regardless, I'm glad they built the tunnel. Having only one high-capacity route through downtown Seattle would have been a disaster waiting to happen if they were stupid enough to do only the surface street.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 12, 2018, 12:27:44 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on September 11, 2018, 08:57:49 PM
Regardless, I'm glad they built the tunnel. Having only one high-capacity route through downtown Seattle would have been a disaster waiting to happen if they were stupid enough to do only the surface street.

While that's as may be, I think we both know that neither SDOT nor WSDOT are really that interested in creating new high capacity routes within city limits. Minor changes here and there, sure. But make no mistake: if this project were going through the design phase today, instead of 10 or 15 years ago, the surface street would probably win out.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 12, 2018, 04:07:31 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 11, 2018, 08:54:51 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 11, 2018, 08:39:34 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on September 11, 2018, 08:27:57 PM
The surface+transit option would've been good, but since 99 is used as a bypass of I-5 occasionally, this tunnel was needed for that traffic.

Highway 99 isn't typically used as a bypass for through-traffic, due to the time-consuming east-west connections at the north end to Aurora Avenue. It is useful to the south end, but that was mostly a side-benefit of having a few (but not too many) downtown exits.

There are no direct east-west routes from Aurora to the 5, but there are plenty of good-enough options for it to still be a feasible route to bypass Seattle to the West. I have used Aurora to bypass the city coming from the north, even though Waze was suggesting I stay on 5. Probably saved about 15 minutes?

I doubt the Port of Seattle would have supported the surface-only option anyways, and I seem to recall them having contributed to funding.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 11, 2018, 08:51:29 PM
Why would the surface and transit option have been better if that's what there building anyways on top of this tunnel? The only difference is that option wouldn't haven't included a freeway tunnel?

Reduced cost, smaller time frame, more consistent with city policy.
I'll be interested in seeing the traffic counts. To get better infrastructure you have to pay for it and sometimes it takes longer to build. What's faster and cheaper isn't always better.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on September 12, 2018, 04:45:27 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 12, 2018, 04:07:31 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 11, 2018, 08:54:51 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 11, 2018, 08:39:34 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on September 11, 2018, 08:27:57 PM
The surface+transit option would've been good, but since 99 is used as a bypass of I-5 occasionally, this tunnel was needed for that traffic.

Highway 99 isn't typically used as a bypass for through-traffic, due to the time-consuming east-west connections at the north end to Aurora Avenue. It is useful to the south end, but that was mostly a side-benefit of having a few (but not too many) downtown exits.

There are no direct east-west routes from Aurora to the 5, but there are plenty of good-enough options for it to still be a feasible route to bypass Seattle to the West. I have used Aurora to bypass the city coming from the north, even though Waze was suggesting I stay on 5. Probably saved about 15 minutes?

I doubt the Port of Seattle would have supported the surface-only option anyways, and I seem to recall them having contributed to funding.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 11, 2018, 08:51:29 PM
Why would the surface and transit option have been better if that's what there building anyways on top of this tunnel? The only difference is that option wouldn't haven't included a freeway tunnel?

Reduced cost, smaller time frame, more consistent with city policy.
I'll be interested in seeing the traffic counts. To get better infrastructure you have to pay for it and sometimes it takes longer to build. What's faster and cheaper isn't always better.

You should try telling that to WISDOT!

There's never enough money in the budget to complete all our projects yet Scott Walker refuses to increase the gas tax or do anything to increase revenues for transportation funding.

Anyway, back to talking about the tunnel.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 12, 2018, 04:57:53 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 12, 2018, 04:07:31 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 11, 2018, 08:54:51 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 11, 2018, 08:51:29 PM
Why would the surface and transit option have been better if that's what there building anyways on top of this tunnel? The only difference is that option wouldn't haven't included a freeway tunnel?

Reduced cost, smaller time frame, more consistent with city policy.

I'll be interested in seeing the traffic counts. To get better infrastructure you have to pay for it and sometimes it takes longer to build. What's faster and cheaper isn't always better.

I would expect the ramps to and from Alaskan way to be quite busy, as it will be the new access route to Western. Although it's possible that Western-bound traffic will go through the tunnel all the way to Mercer, and then turn around.

While you have to pay to get better infrastructure, there is a lot of things that come with that infrastructure that might not be worth the cost. Lengthened construction time frames, misplaced residents, traffic flow changes, etc. And it's possible that it might not be worth it at all, and that's for the cost-benefit analysis to decide. In the case of the tunnel, it fell in its favor. You could conceivably extend any freeway, and see traffic flow improvements, but it's not always worth it, if you're misplacing thousands of people, or it takes way too long to build.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on September 12, 2018, 07:21:04 PM
While I've yet to witness Washington first hand, from what I've seen they have a pretty good infrastructure network. I mean the traffic in Seattle is bad but pretty much every major city is like that. The roads seem to be in good condition and are quite impressive in some regards.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 13, 2018, 01:01:03 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 12, 2018, 07:21:04 PM
While I've yet to witness Washington first hand, from what I've seen they have a pretty good infrastructure network. I mean the traffic in Seattle is bad but pretty much every major city is like that. The roads seem to be in good condition and are quite impressive in some regards.

Connections are good but narrow. Six lane roads are unusual, unlike many other cities where they seem to be common. The big issues are the lakes and hills, which make it difficult to navigate in a direct manner, and make it very expensive to build and widen roads.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on September 14, 2018, 10:38:09 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 11, 2018, 04:42:59 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 11, 2018, 03:30:04 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 11, 2018, 11:14:16 AM
sounds like aside the cost, this was a great project, you get to keep a highway and have an ugly one removed and allow access to the waterfront.  If tunnels weren't so expensive, this would happen in many downtowns.

It really doesn't replace the bulk of the viaduct's traffic (due to the lack of downtown ramps) and really wasn't worth the headache. The Surface + Transit option from the 2000s would have been much better, and we're essentially building it on top of the tunnel anyway (but at a higher cost and much later).

Fingers crossed that a major earthquake (either from the subduction zone or local fault) doesn't strike the viaduct before it's fully demolished. It wouldn't take down the whole waterfront, thanks to the new seawall, but it would still do a lot of damage.

On the plus side, although it would kill many dozens of people, it would at least prove to the non-believers the viability of a tunnel through fill, and its ability to not only stand up in an earthquake, but also be one of the safest places.

Nevertheless, I would prefer a scenario without any death.

Quote from: silverback1065 on September 11, 2018, 03:31:34 PM
There are no exits on the tunnel? Weird

The tunnel was far too deep for any downtown exits to be practical. Plus, the new tunnel includes far better access to Alaskan Way than the current Viaduct. Alaskan Way will basically be the new downtown connector.

Sort of like when I-71 was rebuilt through downtown Cincinnati, a confusing mass of street connector ramps were removed and replaced with a narrower footprint depressed freeway with the only connections between it and the streets being at the ends.

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 17, 2018, 04:33:00 PM
Looks like the tunnel won't open until early 2019, with the viaduct closure occurring 11 January. Seems like a delay from earlier estimates:

http://wsdot.wa.gov/news/2018/09/17/sr-99-tunnel-open-early-2019-not-longest-highway-closure-puget-sound-history
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on September 17, 2018, 07:30:47 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2018, 04:33:00 PM
Looks like the tunnel won't open until early 2019, with the viaduct closure occurring 11 January. Seems like a delay from earlier estimates:

http://wsdot.wa.gov/news/2018/09/17/sr-99-tunnel-open-early-2019-not-longest-highway-closure-puget-sound-history

Aw, I was looking forward to the tunnel opening in October. Weeks of hearing nothing and now this. Not that it would affect me anyway, because I don't live in the area and wouldn't be driving here, but I wanted to see it done in a timely manner.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on September 17, 2018, 10:49:53 PM
I'm so relieved. I have a trip to Ohio in the middle of October that I was hesitant to take if the tunnel ceremonies would have conflicted.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kwellada on September 18, 2018, 11:11:30 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 17, 2018, 07:30:47 PM
Aw, I was looking forward to the tunnel opening in October. Weeks of hearing nothing and now this. Not that it would affect me anyway, because I don't live in the area and wouldn't be driving here, but I wanted to see it done in a timely manner.

Timely is a shipped that sailed long ago with this project!  :-D
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 18, 2018, 11:23:28 AM
WSDOT did stress in their press conference that the 2019 opening is not actually a delay from post-pipe scheduling. Autumn 2018 would have been early.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on September 18, 2018, 07:13:08 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2018, 11:23:28 AM
WSDOT did stress in their press conference that the 2019 opening is not actually a delay from post-pipe scheduling. Autumn 2018 would have been early.

But that was their initial projected opening date. Then they pushed it forward, and now they moved it back again, so it feels more like a delay than going back to the original opening time.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on September 18, 2018, 09:32:34 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 18, 2018, 07:13:08 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2018, 11:23:28 AM
WSDOT did stress in their press conference that the 2019 opening is not actually a delay from post-pipe scheduling. Autumn 2018 would have been early.

But that was their initial projected opening date. Then they pushed it forward, and now they moved it back again, so it feels more like a delay than going back to the original opening time.

Projection, not a real and firm opening date.

None of this really matters, since the original opening date was supposed to be in 2016. An overbudget and way over schedule project is still the same if you're adding 2-3 months.

There's going to be a lot of people who are rightly smug while they say "I told you so" to all the tunnel boosters.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on September 18, 2018, 10:45:12 PM
Quote from: kwellada on September 18, 2018, 11:11:30 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 17, 2018, 07:30:47 PM
Aw, I was looking forward to the tunnel opening in October. Weeks of hearing nothing and now this. Not that it would affect me anyway, because I don't live in the area and wouldn't be driving here, but I wanted to see it done in a timely manner.

Timely is a shipped that sailed long ago with this project!  :-D

Execute a bureaucrat and their family for each day of delay.  Things will be sped up then for sure!  Tolerate sloppiness and you will get sloppiness.

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Sub-Urbanite on September 19, 2018, 12:49:25 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on September 18, 2018, 10:45:12 PM
Execute a bureaucrat and their family for each day of delay.  Things will be sped up then for sure!  Tolerate sloppiness and you will get sloppiness.

Rick

Right. You'll also get asphalt that was poured in the rain or at the wrong temperature or humidity and sends chunks of rocks onto your windshield in 7 months because it's falling apart.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 19, 2018, 02:20:12 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on September 19, 2018, 12:49:25 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on September 18, 2018, 10:45:12 PM
Execute a bureaucrat and their family for each day of delay.  Things will be sped up then for sure!  Tolerate sloppiness and you will get sloppiness.

Right. You'll also get asphalt that was poured in the rain or at the wrong temperature or humidity and sends chunks of rocks onto your windshield in 7 months because it's falling apart.

I'm guessing this happened in your area. I've not heard of such a thing.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Duke87 on September 23, 2018, 05:54:32 PM
The specifics of that scenario aren't important, the point is that when you rush work, quality suffers. Good work done late is better than shoddy work done on time.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 23, 2018, 06:39:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 19, 2018, 02:20:12 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on September 19, 2018, 12:49:25 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on September 18, 2018, 10:45:12 PM
Execute a bureaucrat and their family for each day of delay.  Things will be sped up then for sure!  Tolerate sloppiness and you will get sloppiness.

Right. You'll also get asphalt that was poured in the rain or at the wrong temperature or humidity and sends chunks of rocks onto your windshield in 7 months because it's falling apart.

I'm guessing this happened in your area. I've not heard of such a thing.

Quote from: Duke87 on September 23, 2018, 05:54:32 PM
The specifics of that scenario aren't important, the point is that when you rush work, quality suffers. Good work done late is better than shoddy work done on time.

No doubt. But his comment was too specific to be anything other than a personal experience.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on September 23, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on September 23, 2018, 05:54:32 PM
The specifics of that scenario aren't important, the point is that when you rush work, quality suffers. Good work done late is better than shoddy work done on time.

I thought they were practically done. It shouldn't take months' worth of delays to do only a little bit of work.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on September 23, 2018, 08:53:37 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 23, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on September 23, 2018, 05:54:32 PM
The specifics of that scenario aren't important, the point is that when you rush work, quality suffers. Good work done late is better than shoddy work done on time.

I thought they were practically done. It shouldn't take months' worth of delays to do only a little bit of work.

It's about waiting for a window of good weather. Seattle's winters are consistently drizzly, which doesn't lend itself well to road construction.

There's also the matter of giving people and companies time to prepare for the three-week shutdown and the associated disruptions. Metro needs to coordinate extra bus service (during the middle of their own hiring crunch), SDOT needs to prepare for signal re-timings, Amazon will probably deploy some of their own shuttles to West Seattle, the water taxi is going to make extra runs, etc.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on September 24, 2018, 09:54:26 AM
Quote from: Bruce on September 23, 2018, 08:53:37 PM
It's about waiting for a window of good weather. Seattle's winters are consistently drizzly, which doesn't lend itself well to road construction.
Then again, you can expect the other three seasons to be drizzly too. Let's just hope that the time is right for the target opening date.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on September 24, 2018, 05:16:24 PM
I still think the Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel will be the last deep-bored road tunnel the United States ever builds.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 24, 2018, 05:55:01 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 24, 2018, 05:16:24 PM
I still think the Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel will be the last deep-bored road tunnel the United States ever builds.

How many times are you going to claim this?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: NE2 on September 25, 2018, 12:57:03 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 24, 2018, 05:55:01 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 24, 2018, 05:16:24 PM
I still think the Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel will be the last deep-bored road tunnel the United States ever builds.

How many times are you going to claim this?

Until someone bans him for being useless.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on October 23, 2018, 11:28:50 PM
I finally found the photo of the front of the signs on the gantry at the north end of the viaduct, taken in 2008.  And, they're button copy signs, at least the green ones.  However, I think the hand-painted Seattle Center logo has since been hit with graffiti. (Yes, definitely.) (https://goo.gl/maps/pPcTSJeM7ft) :angry:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1956/43712611430_1252c6075f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29AJysj)Button Copy signs at north end of Alaska Way Viaduct (https://flic.kr/p/29AJysj) by Arthur Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/116988743@N07/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: silverback1065 on October 24, 2018, 09:00:19 AM
random question, was SR 99 ever supposed to be an interstate in this area? 
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on October 24, 2018, 09:14:05 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 24, 2018, 09:00:19 AM
random question, was SR 99 ever supposed to be an interstate in this area? 
AFAIK, it never was. I would genuinely be surprised if a direct connection from the viaduct to I-5 was somehow planned, but never materialized.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on October 24, 2018, 12:37:39 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 24, 2018, 09:14:05 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 24, 2018, 09:00:19 AM
random question, was SR 99 ever supposed to be an interstate in this area? 
AFAIK, it never was. I would genuinely be surprised if a direct connection from the viaduct to I-5 was somehow planned, but never materialized.

It was planned. The southern section of the viaduct, which has since been demolished, had ramps stubs for a connection to I-5 and I-90. I'm not sure if, after this connection had been built, the viaduct would have become an interstate. But it's more common than not for interstates to end at other interstates, so it's entirely possible.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: BigManFromAFRICA88 on October 24, 2018, 02:13:04 PM
Any updates on the opening?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on October 24, 2018, 03:30:58 PM
Quote from: BigManFromAFRICA88 on October 24, 2018, 02:13:04 PM
Any updates on the opening?

Mid-January.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on October 24, 2018, 11:08:16 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 24, 2018, 09:00:19 AM
random question, was SR 99 ever supposed to be an interstate in this area? 

Nope. The early plans for I-5 were drawn up in 1953 (just as the viaduct opened) to cut through downtown but still serve exits and link up to a tollway connecting Tacoma to Everett. This was struck down by the state supreme court a few months after the Interstate program came into being, so it all worked out in the end.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on October 25, 2018, 12:46:24 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 24, 2018, 09:00:19 AM
random question, was SR 99 ever supposed to be an interstate in this area?

The Bay Freeway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Freeway_(Seattle)#/media/File:Bay_Freeway_(1970)_map,_cropped.jpg) would have provided a northern connection.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 01, 2018, 02:26:33 PM
Tunnel will open to vehicles after this celebration.

https://twitter.com/qamagnews/status/1058052165858742272
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on November 01, 2018, 05:31:51 PM
Sign up for the free events (tunnel walk/wander and viaduct goodbye) here: http://99stepforward.com/
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on November 02, 2018, 10:47:41 AM
Quote from: Bruce on November 01, 2018, 05:31:51 PM
Sign up for the free events (tunnel walk/wander and viaduct goodbye) here: http://99stepforward.com/


I just signed up and got my tickets. I'm looking forward to it! I didn't go to the 520 bridge opening, (I know, I'm such a bad roadgeek) so I figured I ought to go to this one.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on November 02, 2018, 10:50:16 AM
I signed up. I'm debating about signing up for the bike ride as well.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on November 03, 2018, 03:07:47 AM
The bike ride's fee goes to fund a lot of great programs run by Cascade, but I'm opting out since I don't have a bike. I did ride in the viaduct run earlier this year using one of the bikeshares, which a dozen other people were doing.

If anyone wants to walk together, I'm trying to coordinate a meetup in this thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=23573.0
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on November 05, 2018, 10:01:12 AM
I'm definitely signing up!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Revive 755 on November 09, 2018, 05:18:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 12, 2018, 05:47:26 PM
LED signals are not particularly common here either. Compare this new signal in Oregon (https://goo.gl/FmNG3E) to this new signal in Washington (https://goo.gl/ZcE7Da). The Oregon signals are all LED, and appear the same color when not lit. Washington seems to use incandescent signals. Tacoma is the only place that I've seen with full LED signals, and it's only the signals with LED inserts (https://goo.gl/U7hCXV) or new wire-span signals, not new mast-arm installs.

Are you sure those aren't LEDs on the Washington signal?  At least on Streetview the green indication in the NB 3-section mounted on the mast arm shaft looks appears to be more of a clear lens than a tinted lens.  Compared to this older signal from Chicagoland with incandescent indications (https://goo.gl/maps/7SinxRvAbZ72), the Washington signal appears to be using LEDs.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 10, 2018, 07:05:04 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on November 09, 2018, 05:18:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 12, 2018, 05:47:26 PM
LED signals are not particularly common here either. Compare this new signal in Oregon (https://goo.gl/FmNG3E) to this new signal in Washington (https://goo.gl/ZcE7Da). The Oregon signals are all LED, and appear the same color when not lit. Washington seems to use incandescent signals. Tacoma is the only place that I've seen with full LED signals, and it's only the signals with LED inserts (https://goo.gl/U7hCXV) or new wire-span signals, not new mast-arm installs.

Are you sure those aren't LEDs on the Washington signal?  At least on Streetview the green indication in the NB 3-section mounted on the mast arm shaft looks appears to be more of a clear lens than a tinted lens.  Compared to this older signal from Chicagoland with incandescent indications (https://goo.gl/maps/7SinxRvAbZ72), the Washington signal appears to be using LEDs.

Actually, they are LEDs. I was wrong. I was assuming that clear lens = LED, colored = incandescent. But we discussed it a few pages ago:

Quote from: Duke87 on August 23, 2018, 09:08:24 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on August 20, 2018, 05:11:09 PM
There are a lot of Washington installs that are LEDs.  Some are using colored drivers, others are using white, with colored lenses.

It's not the driver that makes the color. It is a combination of the diodes and, if applicable, the phosphor placed over them. "White" LEDs are usually actually blue LEDs with a phosphor coating on the inside of the cap.

I was thinking all the new signals in WA were just newer (ergo brighter) incandescent signals, with actual incandescent signals being older (fading) examples of the same tech: https://goo.gl/YJ65ku
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on November 10, 2018, 08:24:45 PM
I walked around the new Alaskan Way (now to the west of the viaduct, instead of under it), and the whole situation is a mess for pedestrians coming off the ferry. Cross the street and you have to dodge people using the parking lane without the assistance of a signal or any real help. Someone is going to get hit, especially with the darker nights right now.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 10, 2018, 08:46:08 PM
Quote from: Bruce on November 10, 2018, 08:24:45 PM
I walked around the new Alaskan Way (now to the west of the viaduct, instead of under it), and the whole situation is a mess for pedestrians coming off the ferry. Cross the street and you have to dodge people using the parking lane without the assistance of a signal or any real help. Someone is going to get hit, especially with the darker nights right now.

Parking lanes aren't usually signalized. Does it have a stop sign, or is it one way coming towards the parking lane? An RRFB at the crossings would be wise until demolition time.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 16, 2018, 04:23:22 AM
This new video from WSDOT's Youtube shows the signs in the tunnel. Pretty cool that the Seattle Center logo continues to be used. Also some cool info on ramp reconfigurations, and some info about a buried ramp.

https://youtu.be/bGJ9ObcP3Jg
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 24, 2018, 02:03:33 AM
The Alaskan Way/Dearborn/99 intersection is coming together:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4913/45911761961_d552f48deb_o.jpg)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsdot.wa.gov%2FProjects%2FViaduct%2FMedia%2FDefault%2F-NewDocuments%2FUsingTheTunnel%2F2017_0113_dearbornlabels.jpg&hash=4d44183dd17e0134ac374500a608ad233789d370)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MikeSantNY78 on December 04, 2018, 12:47:21 PM
Final plans (including scheduled briefings from WSDOT) set for demolition of the Viaduct itself:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/final-plans-outlined-for-demolition-of-alaskan-way-viaduct/
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 23, 2018, 01:22:57 AM
A bike-thru video from earlier this year:

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on December 24, 2018, 05:32:41 AM
Tangentally related: The break in WA 99 through Tukwilla bothers me. If Tukwilla really didn't want 99 signed along International Blvd, WSDOT should have routed 99 along (and replaced) 518 to I-5, cosign it with I-5, and eliminated 599 (or resign the western end of 518 as 599 or put 599 on the Airport Expressway).
In fact, I may email WSDOT to see what they think of this...
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 24, 2018, 02:04:42 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on December 24, 2018, 05:32:41 AM
Tangentially related: The break in WA 99 through Tukwilla bothers me. If Tukwilla really didn't want 99 signed along International Blvd, WSDOT should have routed 99 along (and replaced) 518 to I-5, cosign it with I-5, and eliminated 599 (or resign the western end of 518 as 599 or put 599 on the Airport Expressway).
In fact, I may email WSDOT to see what they think of this...

My understanding is that the Airport Expressway is maintained by the Port of Seattle (hence all the Clearview), so that will never get a highway number.

If 99 was routed onto 518 east of International Blvd, that would mean that stretch of freeway would be 5xx > 99 > 405 within a mile. Seems kind of pointless.

I think cosigning 518 and I-5 as SR-99, and then replacing 599, would be okay too. This keeps 518 and 509 the way they are now, with the only changes being a duplex instead of a gap, and the deletion of 599.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 24, 2018, 05:00:59 PM
I just finished this article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Route_99) on the history of SR 99, including a bit of the Tukwila saga. KUOW interviewed (https://www.kuow.org/stories/how-tukwila-stole-25-miles-highway-99-state-control) the state rep. who was responsible for the bill, who says that he'd rather have given Tukwila a 99-year lease to the highway instead of a full transfer (not for continuity reasons, but to preserve state ownership).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: sparker on December 24, 2018, 07:23:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2018, 02:04:42 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on December 24, 2018, 05:32:41 AM
Tangentially related: The break in WA 99 through Tukwilla bothers me. If Tukwilla really didn't want 99 signed along International Blvd, WSDOT should have routed 99 along (and replaced) 518 to I-5, cosign it with I-5, and eliminated 599 (or resign the western end of 518 as 599 or put 599 on the Airport Expressway).
In fact, I may email WSDOT to see what they think of this...

My understanding is that the Airport Expressway is maintained by the Port of Seattle (hence all the Clearview), so that will never get a highway number.

If 99 was routed onto 518 east of International Blvd, that would mean that stretch of freeway would be 5xx > 99 > 405 within a mile. Seems kind of pointless.

I think cosigning 518 and I-5 as SR-99, and then replacing 599, would be okay too. This keeps 518 and 509 the way they are now, with the only changes being a duplex instead of a gap, and the deletion of 599.
Quote from: Bruce on December 24, 2018, 05:00:59 PM
I just finished this article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Route_99) on the history of SR 99, including a bit of the Tukwila saga. KUOW interviewed (https://www.kuow.org/stories/how-tukwila-stole-25-miles-highway-99-state-control) the state rep. who was responsible for the bill, who says that he'd rather have given Tukwila a 99-year lease to the highway instead of a full transfer (not for continuity reasons, but to preserve state ownership).

A simpler solution would be to reroute WA 99 over present 599 and terminate it at the I-5 merge.  Then redesignate present WA 99 between Fife and WA 518 as something like the long-missing WA 511.  Yes, the "honorary/historical" aspect of the "99" number would be missing -- but since that process has been done elsewhere without much ado (e.g., WA 529 in and around Everett), it shouldn't cause a lot of uproar these days.   And the concept of WA 99 as an alternative to I-5 through central Seattle would be retained (and even enhanced, access-wise, by the redesignation of the present WA 599 connection).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 24, 2018, 08:24:16 PM
I think the number 511 should remain missing, given that the same number is used for the 5-1-1 hotline (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-1-1) that is present on signage. Would be confusing to some people.

The south half could easily become SR 599, which still retains the "99" moniker and is also in line with the numbering scheme.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: sparker on December 25, 2018, 02:26:21 AM
Quote from: Bruce on December 24, 2018, 08:24:16 PM
I think the number 511 should remain missing, given that the same number is used for the 5-1-1 hotline (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-1-1) that is present on signage. Would be confusing to some people.

The south half could easily become SR 599, which still retains the "99" moniker and is also in line with the numbering scheme.

Hadn't thought of the "511" situation -- but your idea is probably the best solution -- just "swap" 599 and the south portion of 99.  Dan -- if and when you read this, this idea seems simpler & easier to implement than a somewhat convoluted detour of 99 over 5 and 518; you may want to consider suggesting this to WSDOT as an alternative approach.   
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 01, 2019, 11:26:51 PM
A quick video from KING 5 with some nice archival footage of the viaduct's history.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/tunnel-effect/why-the-seattle-viaduct-was-built-and-why-it-took-so-long-to-tear-down/281-e0e23029-1c68-43f2-a540-31a428aa6d1c
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on January 02, 2019, 11:24:45 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 01, 2019, 11:26:51 PM
A quick video from KING 5 with some nice archival footage of the viaduct's history.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/tunnel-effect/why-the-seattle-viaduct-was-built-and-why-it-took-so-long-to-tear-down/281-e0e23029-1c68-43f2-a540-31a428aa6d1c

Cool!  Black on white directional signs.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kwellada on January 02, 2019, 02:13:59 PM
That was a neat news story.  Admittedly I won't be shedding a tear for the viaduct being gone.  Sure, the view on the upper deck is nice, but it was a somewhat terrifying narrow road with nervous drivers as well as a deathtrap should another earthquake come along.  I'm glad the highway department will be taking it down, not another Nisqually.  Now that I live in Tacoma, I'm fairly indifferent about the tunnel, but I won't be very nostalgic about that wall of noise and traffic separating the city from the waterfront.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on January 02, 2019, 04:11:20 PM
https://www.kiro7.com/news/viaduct-shutdown/confused-about-upcoming-changes-to-sr-99-new-tunnel-wsdot-releases-videos/897999549

There's probably a better link for these directly to WSDOT's site, but I'm lazy. Basically, WSDOT released a series of videos showing how to enter and exit the new tunnel.

It's a little odd though, that they seem to use a US 99 shield throughout.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 02, 2019, 05:54:30 PM
That US-99 shield is certainly funny! Gotta wonder if that was intentional.

The videos are all on WSDOT's YouTube page:

https://youtu.be/4CPINQXVtbU

https://youtu.be/ldOhsVdzoPo

https://youtu.be/rE6MZ3yytHI

https://youtu.be/By7PJb3xCmg
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 02, 2019, 06:30:01 PM
In the second video, the narrator mispronounces "Royal Brougham Way" as "broom way" (it should be "brom"). Otherwise, the quality is pretty good, with most of the newer buildings in place and not looking completely ugly.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 02, 2019, 08:01:49 PM
Oh shit. I've always said "bro-um". Thanks for the heads up. I know it's a name but I've never heard it said.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 02, 2019, 08:15:05 PM
It's closer to "bra/hm". Watch a few Sounders broadcasts with the local call and you'll pick up the correct pronunciation.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on January 02, 2019, 11:26:32 PM
I thought it was pronounced "broo-um." Gotta love the English language and its inconsistency with pronunciations. I fully admit that my pronunciation of it could be wrong, as I have a hard time pronouncing certain things correctly.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on January 02, 2019, 11:52:09 PM
The car/carriage was pronounced either broom or brohm. I grew up with an Oldsmobile Brougham and always pronounced it brohm.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on January 03, 2019, 12:20:40 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 02, 2019, 11:52:09 PM
The car/carriage was pronounced either broom or brohm. I grew up with an Oldsmobile Brougham and always pronounced it brohm.

I didn't know such a car existed. I guess I'm too young!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: qguy on January 03, 2019, 06:55:46 AM
Quote from: Alps on January 02, 2019, 11:52:09 PM
The car/carriage was pronounced either broom or brohm. I grew up with an Oldsmobile Brougham and always pronounced it brohm.
Quote from: Alps on January 02, 2019, 11:52:09 PM
The car/carriage was pronounced either broom or brohm. I grew up with an Oldsmobile Brougham and always pronounced it brohm.

And you were correct to. I had a similar experience. My father purchased a succession of three Oldsmobile Delta 88s during the 1970s, the last of which (the 1978 model) I drove during my college years. (Great car for college; the trunk was as large as some apartments.) All of the Olds sales people pronounced it brohm, which is the classic pronunciation.

BTW, the voice-over in the videos sounds to me like he's pronouncing it brohm, not broom. Is it not pronounced brohm in Seattle?

Reminds me of the small town of Versailles, Pennsylvania, just southeast of Pittsburgh. The locals don't pronounce it like it's French namesake (ver-SIGH). They say ver-SALES, or worse, VER-sales. Makes me think they're all living in an episode of "Mama's Family."
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kwellada on January 03, 2019, 07:31:33 PM
Quote from: qguy on January 03, 2019, 06:55:46 AM
Reminds me of the small town of Versailles, Pennsylvania, just southeast of Pittsburgh. The locals don't pronounce it like it's French namesake (ver-SIGH). They say ver-SALES, or worse, VER-sales. Makes me think they're all living in an episode of "Mama's Family."

I have a friend in California who lives on a Versailles Street and the locals all do the VER-sales pronunciation.  The kicker is that my friend grew up in France and obviously French is his native tongue.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on January 04, 2019, 09:53:34 AM
Quote from: kwellada on January 03, 2019, 07:31:33 PM
Quote from: qguy on January 03, 2019, 06:55:46 AM
Reminds me of the small town of Versailles, Pennsylvania, just southeast of Pittsburgh. The locals don't pronounce it like it's French namesake (ver-SIGH). They say ver-SALES, or worse, VER-sales. Makes me think they're all living in an episode of "Mama's Family."

I have a friend in California who lives on a Versailles Street and the locals all do the VER-sales pronunciation.  The kicker is that my friend grew up in France and obviously French is his native tongue.

And it's also 'ver-SALES', IN.

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 04, 2019, 05:18:12 PM
Will someone drive through the tunnel when it opens, and report back on whether they consider the driving experience better/worse than the existing viaduct? It would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 04, 2019, 06:12:01 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 04, 2019, 05:18:12 PM
Will someone drive through the tunnel when it opens, and report back on whether they consider the driving experience better/worse than the existing viaduct? It would be much appreciated.

I guarantee you that will happen almost immediately.

If I had to guess, the tunnel will be a far more enjoyable experience, though less visually stimulating.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on January 04, 2019, 08:33:53 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 04, 2019, 06:12:01 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 04, 2019, 05:18:12 PM
Will someone drive through the tunnel when it opens, and report back on whether they consider the driving experience better/worse than the existing viaduct? It would be much appreciated.

I guarantee you that will happen almost immediately.

Yep, I plan on driving thru the new tunnel and filming the drive shortly after it opens.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 04, 2019, 08:57:14 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 04, 2019, 05:18:12 PM
Will someone drive through the tunnel when it opens, and report back on whether they consider the driving experience better/worse than the existing viaduct? It would be much appreciated.

It's not hard to think of what the new tunnel will be like and how it will affect things:

It'll be a safer drive, given that there's a shoulder and you're not stranded on top of a collapse-ready freeway that could pancake and crush the lower decks. It won't relive downtown congestion, not by a long shot, and there will still be jams near the portals due to merges with downtown traffic; the Republican ramp is going to be a decent mess and help contribute to the Mercer Mess.

You'll lose the iconic skyline and waterfront view, but the waterfront area should be a lot quieter (at least once demolition is completed and the work on Colman Dock winds down). It will be a much more pleasant place to visit and probably crawling with tourists spilling over from Pike Place.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 05, 2019, 02:28:38 PM
I was listening to a King 5 story this morning, and they pronounced Brougham as "bro-um"; two syllables. Are you guys above saying it should be one syllable? For example, "braum" ("braun" with an "m")?

I also listened to those Youtube videos a bit more closely. The narrator seems to say it correctly? qguy noticed this too.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 05, 2019, 11:35:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2019, 02:28:38 PM
I was listening to a King 5 story this morning, and they pronounced Brougham as "bro-um"; two syllables. Are you guys above saying it should be one syllable? For example, "braum" ("braun" with an "m")?

I also listened to those Youtube videos a bit more closely. The narrator seems to say it correctly? qguy noticed this too.

I pronounce it as "Braum". That's a closer approximation to what I've always heard.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: US 89 on January 06, 2019, 12:52:19 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 05, 2019, 11:35:54 PM
Braum
Mmm, ice cream... :sombrero:
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: qguy on January 06, 2019, 09:21:48 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 05, 2019, 11:35:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2019, 02:28:38 PM
I was listening to a King 5 story this morning, and they pronounced Brougham as "bro-um"; two syllables. Are you guys above saying it should be one syllable? For example, "braum" ("braun" with an "m")?

I also listened to those Youtube videos a bit more closely. The narrator seems to say it correctly? qguy noticed this too.
I pronounce it as "Braum". That's a closer approximation to what I've always heard.

As far as I'm concerned, it's "supposed to be" pronounced however the locals choose to pronounce it.

Even in VER-sales.   :biggrin:
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: silverback1065 on January 07, 2019, 12:06:19 PM
Quote from: qguy on January 06, 2019, 09:21:48 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 05, 2019, 11:35:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2019, 02:28:38 PM
I was listening to a King 5 story this morning, and they pronounced Brougham as "bro-um"; two syllables. Are you guys above saying it should be one syllable? For example, "braum" ("braun" with an "m")?

I also listened to those Youtube videos a bit more closely. The narrator seems to say it correctly? qguy noticed this too.
I pronounce it as "Braum". That's a closer approximation to what I've always heard.

As far as I'm concerned, it's "supposed to be" pronounced however the locals choose to pronounce it.

Even in VER-sales.   :biggrin:

in indiana we have a town called Russiaville. it's pronounced ROOsiaville
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 07, 2019, 02:55:29 PM
Quote from: qguy on January 06, 2019, 09:21:48 PM
As far as I'm concerned, it's "supposed to be" pronounced however the locals choose to pronounce it.

It would be great if I could find even one snippet of Royal Brougham actually saying his own name, but I've not found such a thing. Until such a thing is found, no one will be sure.

The Merriam Webster pronunciation (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brougham) suggests two syllables, but there's still a ton of people suggesting it's one syllable on other websites.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: rte66man on January 09, 2019, 02:16:59 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 06, 2019, 12:52:19 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 05, 2019, 11:35:54 PM
Braum
Mmm, ice cream... :sombrero:

+1. Could use some chocolate chip cookie dough in chocolate ice cream right now. Theirs is tasty!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jay8g on January 11, 2019, 10:54:57 PM
Last day of this view for me...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4893/46708741771_c1a42c2665_b.jpg) (https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7822/46708742061_9a4946fb9a_h.jpg)
(Sadly, my camera doesn't take good night time pictures at all.)

Goodbye, Viaduct! Honestly, I won't really miss it... the next few weeks aren't going to be fun, however.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 11, 2019, 11:37:03 PM
Of all the time for my camera to die entirely...it was before the biggest traffic event in our region's history.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 12, 2019, 12:41:18 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 11, 2019, 11:37:03 PM
Of all the time for my camera to die entirely...it was before the biggest traffic event in our region's history.

You figure anything out? That sucks.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 12, 2019, 01:06:04 AM
The viaduct is now officially closed, but there's still plenty of motorists still streaming on.

https://twitter.com/MorganKIRO7/status/1083967632385236993
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 12, 2019, 01:06:59 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2019, 12:41:18 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 11, 2019, 11:37:03 PM
Of all the time for my camera to die entirely...it was before the biggest traffic event in our region's history.

You figure anything out? That sucks.

I'm planning to buy a new camera set (T6, which is on sale at the moment), but given the sales tax situation I may just bus down to Portland to get it. Hopefully the traffic apocalypse stays bad long enough.

I'm planning to fall back on my old point and shoot for a little while.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 12, 2019, 01:26:34 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 12, 2019, 01:06:59 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2019, 12:41:18 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 11, 2019, 11:37:03 PM
Of all the time for my camera to die entirely...it was before the biggest traffic event in our region's history.

You figure anything out? That sucks.

I'm planning to buy a new camera set (T6, which is on sale at the moment), but given the sales tax situation I may just bus down to Portland to get it. Hopefully the traffic apocalypse stays bad long enough.

I'm planning to fall back on my old point and shoot for a little while.

I'm saving up for a camera myself, but trying to find one that does 4K video. If I didn't have that requirement, I could have found a camera a long time ago. Nothing like a drive to PDX for some tax savings!




Total block party out on the viaduct...no way this thing will be empty anytime soon!

https://twitter.com/Mindspand/status/1083973331475300352
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 12, 2019, 02:57:47 AM
The very last car on the viaduct was allegedly a beat-up Subaru, which rolled off at 11:40 p.m.

https://twitter.com/paulstorms/status/1083991518006804481

The viaduct is officially closed (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/goodbye-viaduct-the-highway-closes-for-good-after-66-years-on-seattles-waterfront/) to all public car traffic. Any it didn't even spill over into Saturday!

EDIT: The county sheriff posted some helicopter footage. Really gives you a good idea of the chaos.

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kwellada on January 12, 2019, 11:03:04 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2019, 01:26:34 AM
I'm saving up for a camera myself, but trying to find one that does 4K video. If I didn't have that requirement, I could have found a camera a long time ago. Nothing like a drive to PDX for some tax savings!

I recently got the Canon EOS R.  I think it does 4k video, though cropped on the sensor (I rarely play with video, so I haven't even gotten around to seeing what all this new camera can do with that).  For still photography it's freaking amazing.  Now to pay it off over the coming year...
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Hurricane Rex on January 12, 2019, 06:21:44 PM
Sad to see the viaduct go, but also excited for the next few weeks with this new toy we'll have.

LG-TP260

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 12, 2019, 07:54:18 PM
Demolition of the south end ramps has begun.

https://twitter.com/BerthaDigsSR99/status/1084228945627602944

But there's still idiots trying to trespass for selfies.

https://twitter.com/BerthaDigsSR99/status/1084250769950298114
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 15, 2019, 01:32:27 AM
Day One without the Viaduct wasn't too bad, thanks to people making alternate plans. Traffic even seemed to be a bit lighter.

It is a shame that the West Seattle bus routes skip potential stops in SODO, but I understand the desire not to overcrowd Link with transfers. Maybe once they're on the permanent 1st Avenue alignment, they'll get the stop near Jackson Street.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 15, 2019, 01:37:32 AM
That's so sad they're going to fill in the battery st tunnel. That concept to build a trail with some stores along it would have been so cool and unique.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 15, 2019, 02:04:04 AM
Sadly the tunnel would require somewhere around $200 million in seismic repairs, let alone other modifications. It would be cheaper to recreate the concept as a surface street (including the daylit creek, which could work with careful planning).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on January 15, 2019, 02:58:02 AM
Yeah that 200 million would probably be better spent on other pressing needs for Seattle. But wouldn't that be cool! East coast has the high line and the west coast has the low line. For some reason you think it'd be opposite. ;)

Good stuff happening up there anyways! Can't wait to check it out in person.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 15, 2019, 03:21:21 AM
That $200 million would have paid for most of the budget shortfall in the First Avenue streetcar project...if only the mayor didn't cancel it and add more costs on top of that.

I'd much rather have our Embarcadero knockoff than a High Line knockoff. While elevated views are cool, they're pretty inaccessible and don't really work well with our terrain.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 15, 2019, 03:57:32 AM
Good old Apple Maps...(yes, this was fixed a while ago)...

https://twitter.com/TracyTTraffic/status/1084774959803641856
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on January 15, 2019, 04:56:46 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 15, 2019, 03:21:21 AM
That $200 million would have paid for most of the budget shortfall in the First Avenue streetcar project...if only the mayor didn't cancel it and add more costs on top of that.

Wait, she canceled it? I thought the project was on hold until there was a new report on it.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 15, 2019, 12:22:29 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on January 15, 2019, 04:56:46 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 15, 2019, 03:21:21 AM
That $200 million would have paid for most of the budget shortfall in the First Avenue streetcar project...if only the mayor didn't cancel it and add more costs on top of that.

Wait, she canceled it? I thought the project was on hold until there was a new report on it.

That's correct, although there is an impression that she "cancelled" it without coming out and saying so.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 15, 2019, 05:54:39 PM
The new report did come out (after weeks of delays from the city) and didn't recommend any actions to set the project back towards construction. It's pretty much assumed that Mayor Durkan will leave the streetcar issue to the next mayor...though her new SDOT chief did work on the DC Streetcar project, so who knows.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on January 16, 2019, 02:21:48 AM
I'm really hoping someone will bring it back soon. I don't want it to be canceled forever :-(
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 16, 2019, 12:48:40 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on January 16, 2019, 02:21:48 AM
I'm really hoping someone will bring it back soon. I don't want it to be canceled forever :-(

I doubt it will be cancelled forever, the current mayor just doesn't want to appear to be decisive, I guess. It's a major link between two systems. Even if the system never grows beyond SLU and Capitol Hill, at least linking those two systems would be pretty important.

I was down in Sumner yesterday speaking with the city's Community Development Director, and even they're in the early stages of developing a trolley system for their Main St (not trolley bus, rail trolley). If they get theirs built first before Seattle...that doesn't make Seattle look good.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 16, 2019, 06:47:14 PM
The irony of the best-quality streetcar project proposed during this fad of modern streetcars (with dedicated lanes, connections all over, filling a real need, and having potential for very high ridership) getting cancelled while other systems aren't is just laughable.

The Sumner proposal sounds interesting, but I doubt that it would get built anytime soon. The current FTA is less and less keen on funding new rail projects.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 16, 2019, 10:20:04 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 16, 2019, 06:47:14 PM
The Sumner proposal sounds interesting, but I doubt that it would get built anytime soon. The current FTA is less and less keen on funding new rail projects.

They said it was a long way's off (next administration might give it funding). They showed my class at UW how they've started to change their development guidelines to favor townhouses and pedestrian-friendly frontage (having "hired" us to work on the site of an abandoned QFC east of the Fred Meyer); they're interested in taking that to the next level with a trolley. Apparently, they've got pretty good funding going for early studies, but I'm not sure where the money is coming from.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 17, 2019, 06:35:38 PM
Funny that we just brought this up. Completely out of character, Durkan has decided to build that final connection...

https://twitter.com/MikeLindblom/status/1085976986659348480
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on January 18, 2019, 02:05:31 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 17, 2019, 06:35:38 PM
Funny that we just brought this up. Completely out of character, Durkan has decided to build that final connection...

https://twitter.com/MikeLindblom/status/1085976986659348480

Well I'm glad that it's now approved. All we need now is for Seattle to come up with extra funding to complete the gap. Even though it will be built at a higher cost than expected and won't be completed until at least 2025, I think connecting the two streetcar lines will be great for the city.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 19, 2019, 02:58:02 AM
The crux of the issue is that the entire Move Seattle levy (property tax approved in 2015) is falling apart without delivering a single major project. The RapidRide bus upgrades have pretty much been obliterated, the streetcar is on ice, and the sidewalks and bike lanes are being pushed back indefinitely.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 27, 2019, 12:07:54 PM
Overhead signage in the southbound tunnel.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx4pvDUUwAAZh8M.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on January 27, 2019, 12:34:47 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 27, 2019, 12:07:54 PM
Overhead signage in the southbound tunnel.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx4pvDUUwAAZh8M.jpg)

'Burma Shave".

:nod:

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on January 27, 2019, 03:58:33 PM
That's pretty neat how the signs were fit into a restricted space.  I wonder how good they will look to those who drive in the tunnel?

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 27, 2019, 05:56:37 PM
Woah are those lit? Didn't know WSDOT was still installing sign lighting.

Anyone know if there are specific standards governing the installation of signs in restricted-height areas, like here? Like if smaller shields and text are permitted, etc. The shields here certainly look undersized (though plenty readable).

Never seen that variation of the "ferry" symbol, I don't think.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on January 27, 2019, 07:25:51 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on January 27, 2019, 03:58:33 PM
That's pretty neat how the signs were fit into a restricted space.  I wonder how good they will look to those who drive in the tunnel?

Rick
We'll have an idea on Saturday.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on January 27, 2019, 10:40:45 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 27, 2019, 12:07:54 PM
Overhead signage in the southbound tunnel.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx4pvDUUwAAZh8M.jpg)

I don't see any greenout under T-Mobile Park, so that sign wasn't made too early.

I have seen that style ferry symbol in Washington: https://goo.gl/maps/oUTsvtTPQbo
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mrsman on January 29, 2019, 04:52:37 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on January 27, 2019, 10:40:45 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 27, 2019, 12:07:54 PM
Overhead signage in the southbound tunnel.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx4pvDUUwAAZh8M.jpg)

I don't see any greenout under T-Mobile Park, so that sign wasn't made too early.

I have seen that style ferry symbol in Washington: https://goo.gl/maps/oUTsvtTPQbo

The signage is very nice.  It seems like many of the newer tunnels are being designed with signs that have room for only one line of text.  The Big Dig in Boston has similar signage, but not as well lit.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3632969,-71.0576811,3a,75y,121.03h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM6Q69Ypij9jZjypJaHnjGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 30, 2019, 12:23:37 AM
Quote from: mrsman on January 29, 2019, 04:52:37 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on January 27, 2019, 10:40:45 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 27, 2019, 12:07:54 PM
Overhead signage in the southbound tunnel.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx4pvDUUwAAZh8M.jpg)

I don't see any greenout under T-Mobile Park, so that sign wasn't made too early.

I have seen that style ferry symbol in Washington: https://goo.gl/maps/oUTsvtTPQbo

The signage is very nice.  It seems like many of the newer tunnels are being designed with signs that have room for only one line of text.  The Big Dig in Boston has similar signage, but not as well lit.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3632969,-71.0576811,3a,75y,121.03h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM6Q69Ypij9jZjypJaHnjGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656



The same style of signage has been used in the I-5 express lanes for a long time.

https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6208019,-122.3286191,3a,75y,176.14h,84.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOIY8z3chC9FAuPpLJlTq5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TheStranger on January 30, 2019, 01:24:05 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 30, 2019, 12:23:37 AM
Quote from: mrsman on January 29, 2019, 04:52:37 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on January 27, 2019, 10:40:45 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 27, 2019, 12:07:54 PM
Overhead signage in the southbound tunnel.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx4pvDUUwAAZh8M.jpg)

I don't see any greenout under T-Mobile Park, so that sign wasn't made too early.

I have seen that style ferry symbol in Washington: https://goo.gl/maps/oUTsvtTPQbo

The signage is very nice.  It seems like many of the newer tunnels are being designed with signs that have room for only one line of text.  The Big Dig in Boston has similar signage, but not as well lit.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3632969,-71.0576811,3a,75y,121.03h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sM6Q69Ypij9jZjypJaHnjGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656



The same style of signage has been used in the I-5 express lanes for a long time.

https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6208019,-122.3286191,3a,75y,176.14h,84.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOIY8z3chC9FAuPpLJlTq5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Another recent example is along US 101's Presidio Parkway stretch in San Francisco:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8029509,-122.4556708,3a,75y,88.93h,95.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sThnfoCj6HAgNrr0aiV9-3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on January 30, 2019, 03:53:03 PM
Never bothered to notice this. Up until the closure of the viaduct a couple weeks ago, the ramp meters for the northbound on-ramp from Colorado Ave were briefly visible, as the temporary route for northbound 99 passed over this ramp. As someone who has an inexplicable interest in ramp meters, I had been wondering if WSDOT was going to use backplates or whatever...guess I could have known a lot sooner if I had just looked left.

(https://i.imgur.com/OP9Dn9A.png)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 31, 2019, 08:57:04 PM
The February 4 date is officially official now.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/the-highway-99-tunnel-opens-next-week-here-are-answers-to-your-questions-about-the-project/

A few news media crews got to drive through the new tunnel today.

https://twitter.com/jwhittenbergK5/status/1091084951120797696

https://twitter.com/GrahamKIRO7/status/1091129211501203457
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on January 31, 2019, 10:36:48 PM
KOMO video of some of the safety systems in the new tunnel:

https://komonews.com/news/sr-99-tunnel/were-proud-to-show-it-off-officials-are-ready-for-new-sr-99-tunnel-to-open
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on February 01, 2019, 11:55:54 AM
I'm so excited to check out the new tunnel, but I'll be sad to see the viaduct go.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mrsman on February 01, 2019, 11:56:44 AM
I find interesting that the emergency walking exit signage is so prominent.  It is almost as though they expect people to be jogging in the shoulder.

In contrast, here is a pic of the NJ 29 tunnel near Trenton and an emergency exit:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.196675,-74.7576709,3a,75y,223.01h,87.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spZc_qq7jxb4-AXeQ_ncxSA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on February 01, 2019, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 01, 2019, 11:56:44 AM
I find interesting that the emergency walking exit signage is so prominent.  It is almost as though they expect people to be jogging in the shoulder.

In contrast, here is a pic of the NJ 29 tunnel near Trenton and an emergency exit:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.196675,-74.7576709,3a,75y,223.01h,87.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spZc_qq7jxb4-AXeQ_ncxSA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
NJ 29 is not a confined space, and laws about emergency signs have progressed in 20 years.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on February 01, 2019, 11:13:18 PM
Wow.  The Viaduct has been removed from Google Maps.

They recently redid the signage in the I-90 tunnels: purple haze (https://goo.gl/maps/FsebY1Zm7i62).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MCRoads on February 02, 2019, 05:54:24 PM
Its opening on MONDAY!!! I hope someone gets a video of it on YouTube soon!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on February 02, 2019, 08:44:45 PM
What a day!  We got to walk through the Battery Street Tunnel, and even see this control room:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/TvWwg8WP1k8
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on February 02, 2019, 09:52:19 PM
On the Battery Street Tunnel, I noticed older cautionary signs still stuck directly to the pavement behind the newer signs in front.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4911/46913108492_f3e606c0ae_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2etxWJ9)Ghost cautionary signs still stuck behind later signs (https://flic.kr/p/2etxWJ9) by Arthur Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/116988743@N07/), on Flickr

This off-model George, with extra detail not on a regular WSDOT installation was probably made by the City of Seattle.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4806/46913117282_04ab7bc343_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2etxZkG)Off-model Washington State Highway sign. (https://flic.kr/p/2etxZkG) by Arthur Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/116988743@N07/), on Flickr

Ramp stub that was never completed.  There are ramps to and from the south, but the ramps to and from the north were never completed.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4863/46913112712_17d9f5160a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2etxXYU)Alaska Way Viaduct ramp stub (https://flic.kr/p/2etxXYU) by Arthur Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/116988743@N07/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on February 02, 2019, 11:30:27 PM
I have an article by the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/a-look-at-how-transportation-can-transform-a-city/2019/01/31/da8418de-0ec4-11e9-8938-5898adc28fa2_story.html?utm_term=.cdfffa380e95 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/a-look-at-how-transportation-can-transform-a-city/2019/01/31/da8418de-0ec4-11e9-8938-5898adc28fa2_story.html?utm_term=.cdfffa380e95)

Sorry there's a paywall since it's the Washington Post. Is there a way I can post just the text of this article, or is that not allowed?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: oscar on February 02, 2019, 11:48:37 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on February 02, 2019, 11:30:27 PM
Sorry there's a paywall since it's the Washington Post. Is there a way I can post just the text of this article, or is that not allowed?

Best to quote key excerpts from the article, to respect the Post's copyright. That's common practice on this forum, and has been done in early posts in this thread.

BTW, I don't have a paywall problem, as a Washington Post subscriber.

The article notes the new tunnel is the longest road tunnel in the contiguous U.S. (a/k/a "the lower 48"). Alaska has a longer one, the 2.5 mile-long Anton Anderson one-lane shared auto/rail tunnel to Whittier (http://www.alaskaroads.com/photos-whittier-access.htm).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 03, 2019, 12:29:59 AM
Some drone footage of the Tunnel to Viaduct 8K run from earlier this morning.

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 03, 2019, 12:59:39 AM
A few crowd shots from the viaduct:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DydYpXLUUAEXGAs.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DydY2FoUUAA8nKp.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DydY2FQUwAATD-R.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on February 03, 2019, 12:36:13 PM
Some history of the Viaduct:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/5D6RdRRGSrQ
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kwellada on February 03, 2019, 01:11:34 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on February 02, 2019, 11:30:27 PM
I have an article by the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/a-look-at-how-transportation-can-transform-a-city/2019/01/31/da8418de-0ec4-11e9-8938-5898adc28fa2_story.html?utm_term=.cdfffa380e95 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/a-look-at-how-transportation-can-transform-a-city/2019/01/31/da8418de-0ec4-11e9-8938-5898adc28fa2_story.html?utm_term=.cdfffa380e95)

Sorry there's a paywall since it's the Washington Post. Is there a way I can post just the text of this article, or is that not allowed?

If you're on a desktop browser, you can rightclick and open it in a private window (assuming you're using Chrome or Firefox).  That'll bypass the cookies that determine how many free articles you've read this month.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on February 03, 2019, 04:23:44 PM
More photos from the event: https://pauldorpat.com/2019/02/03/last-walk-on-the-viaduct/

Also, yesterday gave me the opportunity to see something else that had always rushed by too fast: evidence of how they had to squeeze in the Viaduct between existing buildings:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7852/46974495491_b9ec24e153_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2eyYyWF)Tight fit on the Alaska Way Viaduct (https://flic.kr/p/2eyYyWF) by Arthur Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/116988743@N07/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Truvelo on February 03, 2019, 05:32:20 PM
^^ Judging by the damage to the corners of the bricks it appears the barriers didn't always do their jobs.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 03, 2019, 07:25:16 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on February 03, 2019, 04:23:44 PM
More photos from the event: https://pauldorpat.com/2019/02/03/last-walk-on-the-viaduct/

Also, yesterday gave me the opportunity to see something else that had always rushed by too fast: evidence of how they had to squeeze in the Viaduct between existing buildings:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7852/46974495491_b9ec24e153_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2eyYyWF)Tight fit on the Alaska Way Viaduct (https://flic.kr/p/2eyYyWF) by Arthur Allen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/116988743@N07/), on Flickr

That's the Empire Laundry Building (now a condo building). According to HistoryLink (http://www.historylink.org/File/9978):

QuoteIn condemnation maps prepared in 1948, it appears that the engineers planned to pass very close to the building, but not encroach upon it. When construction crews reached the corner of the building and realized they would need to pass through about a foot of a corner of the building, the engineers determined, with the approval of the Bureau of Public Roads, that they could cut a notch out of the viaduct's railing and curb to go around the building.

The city paid the building owner $7,500 as compensation.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 03, 2019, 08:09:14 PM
Something tells me, something like that would never happen today.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 03, 2019, 11:23:14 PM
A few tunnel pictures.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyiLv91U8AAZr3Q.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyiLv8GU8AAm24h.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyiKUNmVYAAA4ix.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyiMA6IV4AErMeT.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyiLv-mVYAA1Y3r.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyiMO5jVAAAo5cO.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on February 03, 2019, 11:38:03 PM
Did they let them walk from end to end in the tunnel?

By the way, no tiles ... the fireproofing material on the walls is the final surface.  Just like in the new Midtown Tunnel in Norfolk/Portmouth, VA.  Modern LED lighting is so much brighter that tiled walls are not needed.

Exposed concrete on top of tunnel, a ceiling is not needed for a plenum ventilation system as the modern tunnels use jet fans.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 04, 2019, 02:55:09 AM
Quote from: Beltway on February 03, 2019, 11:38:03 PM
Did they let them walk from end to end in the tunnel?

By the way, no tiles ... the fireproofing material on the walls is the final surface.  Just like in the new Midtown Tunnel in Norfolk/Portmouth, VA.  Modern LED lighting is so much brighter that tiled walls are not needed.

Exposed concrete on top of tunnel, a ceiling is not needed for a plenum ventilation system as the modern tunnels use jet fans.


Yes, with the full (free) ticket, you were able to walk from either end of the tunnel to the other side (with optional turnbacks). If you ended at the south portal, you could then board a shuttle bus (running through the northbound tunnel...bidirectionally) to the north portal. Access to the viaduct and Battery tunnel was allowed from the north portal as well as the Seneca ramp.

The bicycle race and marathon also used the lower deck and sections of the freeway further south of the portal.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on February 04, 2019, 11:35:55 AM
I'm ready to drive the tunnel for the first time today!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 04, 2019, 04:01:41 PM
Interesting video a light-less, snowy viaduct from KING-5. Recorded this morning around 3 or 4 am. Bit ominous.

https://youtu.be/FY-h_lAOesA
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on February 04, 2019, 04:50:58 PM
Another Seattle Channel video on the Viaduct:
https://www.youtube.com/embed/DFWmuRBp1TU
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 05, 2019, 05:47:31 PM
In the newsmagazine, The Week's internet homepage, there is a writer (a Seattle native) who flew in from New York to pay her final respects to the elevated Alaskan Way viaduct. The story is found here: https://theweek.com/articles/821658/why-flew-2000-miles-say-goodbye-freeway-overpass.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 05, 2019, 07:27:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 05, 2019, 05:47:31 PM
In the newsmagazine, The Week's internet homepage, there is a writer (a Seattle native) who flew in from New York to pay her final respects to the elevated Alaskan Way viaduct. The story is found here: https://theweek.com/articles/821658/why-flew-2000-miles-say-goodbye-freeway-overpass.

I have to disagree with her points about the view being lost. The same views of the bay can be seen from the new Pike Place Market overlook (which will connect via elevated terraces to the aquarium), or y'know...one of the many public piers along the waterfront already. There's also no land on the viaduct ROW that is being sold to condo developers...in fact, the existing condo and land owners are paying for most of the cost of the waterfront improvement projects, so we should be thankful. There was also nothing nice about forcing people to live and work with the extra noise and air pollution that the viaduct created.

Good riddance.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2019, 07:33:31 PM
I disagree. As much as I like tunnels, it would have been nice to see the Viaduct rebuilt in addition to a tunnel. But alas, I can see the reason those around will enjoy it being gone.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 05, 2019, 08:27:04 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2019, 07:33:31 PM
As much as I like tunnels, it would have been nice to see the Viaduct rebuilt in addition to a tunnel.

I think we can safely file this comment into the "loony bin".

Fact is, during the viaduct closure, most people switched to buses, bikes, and water taxis. Not even sure a replacement freeway was needed at all.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 05, 2019, 08:28:09 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2019, 07:33:31 PM
I disagree. As much as I like tunnels, it would have been nice to see the Viaduct rebuilt in addition to a tunnel. But alas, I can see the reason those around will enjoy it being gone.

The difference in noise around the waterfront is really staggering. You can actually hear the ferries from quite a distance, which is a useful way of figuring out whether to run for a departure.

Once the viaduct is actually removed and the areas underneath are cleaned up, the differences are going to be even more apparent to the other senses.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: silverback1065 on February 05, 2019, 08:33:12 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 05, 2019, 08:27:04 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2019, 07:33:31 PM
As much as I like tunnels, it would have been nice to see the Viaduct rebuilt in addition to a tunnel.

I think we can safely file this comment into the "loony bin".

Fact is, during the viaduct closure, most people switched to buses, bikes, and water taxis. Not even sure a replacement freeway was needed at all.

please prove that transit comment.  I didn't see the traffic patterns, was traffic bad during the closure?  was 5 worse than normal?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 05, 2019, 09:08:56 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 05, 2019, 08:33:12 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 05, 2019, 08:27:04 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2019, 07:33:31 PM
As much as I like tunnels, it would have been nice to see the Viaduct rebuilt in addition to a tunnel.

I think we can safely file this comment into the "loony bin".

Fact is, during the viaduct closure, most people switched to buses, bikes, and water taxis. Not even sure a replacement freeway was needed at all.

please prove that transit comment.  I didn't see the traffic patterns, was traffic bad during the closure?  was 5 worse than normal?

Traffic was extremely light for the conditions. People did as they were told and avoided driving...and it worked pretty great.

The Times reported on it: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/the-cars-just-disappeared-what-happened-to-the-90000-cars-a-day-the-viaduct-carried-before-it-closed/
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 05, 2019, 09:21:22 PM
Quote from: Bruce on February 05, 2019, 09:08:56 PM
please prove that transit comment.  I didn't see the traffic patterns, was traffic bad during the closure?  was 5 worse than normal?

Adding to Bruce's comment; actual data is still being gathered, but preliminary research gathered by Move All Seattle Sustainably (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5bdf7cc67c93279afce7aa35/t/5c59f281971a18299014275d/1549398658168/ViadoomLessons.pdf) (PDF) indicates that, based on comments from King County Metro, transit usage went way up. The Water Taxi from West Seattle also had ridership levels triple. The PDF has a bunch of sources in it. Some conjecture at the moment, to be fair.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 05, 2019, 10:46:38 PM
Drove the tunnel several times today. In short? Extremely well done, though the concrete is surprisingly bumpy. Not uncomfortably so, but more than you'd expect.

I'm a bit dismayed by the number of drivers exiting northbound at Republican, who then turn left onto Dexter. More than a few seemed to be turning left onto Mercer. They apparently fail to realize that going a few hundred feet further north on 99, and then doing a loop via Roy or Aloha, would be much faster.

If this maneuver starts backing up into the tunnel, I could see SDOT eliminating left turns. Traffic going towards eastbound Mercer would go a block or two further to 8th or 9th, turn left, and then turn right.

Hell, you could avoid Mercer entirely. Turn right from Republican to Dexter, then turn right on Harrison. Take Harrison a few blocks to 5th, and then whatever from there.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on February 06, 2019, 02:05:36 AM
Do you think it's GPS and drivers are blindly following it?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Hurricane Rex on February 06, 2019, 12:21:24 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on February 06, 2019, 02:05:36 AM
Do you think it's GPS and drivers are blindly following it?
Yes, as many routes that GPS tells you aren't the fastest way. It also overcongests some roads.

LG-TP260

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 06, 2019, 02:18:24 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on February 06, 2019, 02:05:36 AM
Do you think it's GPS and drivers are blindly following it?

For the time being, probably. But only because people don't know the roads just yet. Soon enough, my secret will be out!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 06, 2019, 10:23:26 PM
First day numbers: 22,145 total vehicle trips (due to the snowstorm).

https://twitter.com/GlennFarleyK5/status/1092942691015352320

Today in the tunnel: Its first real traffic jam!



https://twitter.com/CamJohnsonK5/status/1093184961094402048

The preliminary viaduct demolition schedule from Kiewit:

(https://i.imgur.com/tKoPMGp.jpg)

The US 99 sign will be among the first things removed from the viaduct, so we really need to press MOHAI and WSDOT's librarians about preservation.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 07, 2019, 01:05:19 AM
Cam Johnson sums up my concerns pretty well: the jam seems to be related to people trying to exit at Republican for Mercer. Fucking morons.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 07, 2019, 02:50:39 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 05, 2019, 08:27:04 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2019, 07:33:31 PM
As much as I like tunnels, it would have been nice to see the Viaduct rebuilt in addition to a tunnel.

I think we can safely file this comment into the "loony bin".

Fact is, during the viaduct closure, most people switched to buses, bikes, and water taxis. Not even sure a replacement freeway was needed at all.
File it in whatever imaginary library you want to.

As I said, if we can find grounds to agree on, I do think it will make the area nicer for the residents in the immediate area.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 07, 2019, 02:52:29 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 05, 2019, 08:28:09 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2019, 07:33:31 PM
I disagree. As much as I like tunnels, it would have been nice to see the Viaduct rebuilt in addition to a tunnel. But alas, I can see the reason those around will enjoy it being gone.

The difference in noise around the waterfront is really staggering. You can actually hear the ferries from quite a distance, which is a useful way of figuring out whether to run for a departure.

Once the viaduct is actually removed and the areas underneath are cleaned up, the differences are going to be even more apparent to the other senses.
Regrettably, I was unable to make it before the closure so I am unaware of the exact circumstances surrounding the viaduct. I can only imagine how much more pleasant it will make the area.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 07, 2019, 02:53:58 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 05, 2019, 09:08:56 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 05, 2019, 08:33:12 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 05, 2019, 08:27:04 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 05, 2019, 07:33:31 PM
As much as I like tunnels, it would have been nice to see the Viaduct rebuilt in addition to a tunnel.

I think we can safely file this comment into the "loony bin".

Fact is, during the viaduct closure, most people switched to buses, bikes, and water taxis. Not even sure a replacement freeway was needed at all.

please prove that transit comment.  I didn't see the traffic patterns, was traffic bad during the closure?  was 5 worse than normal?

Traffic was extremely light for the conditions. People did as they were told and avoided driving...and it worked pretty great.

The Times reported on it: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/the-cars-just-disappeared-what-happened-to-the-90000-cars-a-day-the-viaduct-carried-before-it-closed/
They also knew it was temporary. That needs to be factored in as well.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 07, 2019, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 07, 2019, 02:50:39 AM
As I said, if we can find grounds to agree on, I do think it will make the area nicer for the residents in the immediate area.

Absolutely. 'Tis the entire reason for the tunnel, frankly.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 07, 2019, 02:53:58 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 05, 2019, 09:08:56 PM
Traffic was extremely light for the conditions. People did as they were told and avoided driving...and it worked pretty great.

The Times reported on it: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/the-cars-just-disappeared-what-happened-to-the-90000-cars-a-day-the-viaduct-carried-before-it-closed/
They also knew it was temporary. That needs to be factored in as well.

Not sure how many people can reasonably adjust their schedule for three whole weeks. It was a temporary closure, but most people still had to get to work, go to school, etc. Transit and bikes seem to have picked up the slack, since the roads obviously didn't (the congestion wasn't much different than normal). It's not like the entirety of Hwy 99's users just up and left Seattle for three weeks.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on February 07, 2019, 02:50:51 PM
I certainly agree that this will vastly improve things for the local residents and visitors over what they were like before the viaduct was closed.  OTOH, I seriously doubt that anyone who is living there now and more than a very few of the present-day visitors were around before it was built - they all came in with full the knowledge that it was there and what the conditions were.

What was the general area like before the viaduct was first built, an attractive waterfront, an unattractive industrial and port-based pit of a wasteland, something in between, etc?

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 07, 2019, 03:04:51 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 07, 2019, 02:50:51 PM
I certainly agree that this will vastly improve things for the local residents and visitors over what they were like before the viaduct was closed.  OTOH, I seriously doubt that anyone who is living there now and more than a very few of the present-day visitors were around before it was built - they all came in with full the knowledge that it was there and what the conditions were.

What was the general area like before the viaduct was first built, an attractive waterfront, an unattractive industrial and port-based pit of a wasteland, something in between, etc?

Mike

The waterfront has historically been an industry first area, and the Viaduct was built over existing railroad ROW.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on February 07, 2019, 10:39:27 PM
Quote from: Bruce on February 07, 2019, 03:04:51 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 07, 2019, 02:50:51 PM
I certainly agree that this will vastly improve things for the local residents and visitors over what they were like before the viaduct was closed.  OTOH, I seriously doubt that anyone who is living there now and more than a very few of the present-day visitors were around before it was built - they all came in with full the knowledge that it was there and what the conditions were.

What was the general area like before the viaduct was first built, an attractive waterfront, an unattractive industrial and port-based pit of a wasteland, something in between, etc?

Mike

The waterfront has historically been an industry first area, and the Viaduct was built over existing railroad ROW.
Similar to the Eastbank Freeway and Marquam Bridge in Portland, which is why the 'restoring waterfront access' argument baffles me, even though removing the Viaduct for Seattle and similarly removing the Eastbank (provided it's also replaced with a tunnel) is ultimately a good thing.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 07, 2019, 11:02:08 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on February 07, 2019, 10:39:27 PM
Quote from: Bruce on February 07, 2019, 03:04:51 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 07, 2019, 02:50:51 PM
I certainly agree that this will vastly improve things for the local residents and visitors over what they were like before the viaduct was closed.  OTOH, I seriously doubt that anyone who is living there now and more than a very few of the present-day visitors were around before it was built - they all came in with full the knowledge that it was there and what the conditions were.

What was the general area like before the viaduct was first built, an attractive waterfront, an unattractive industrial and port-based pit of a wasteland, something in between, etc?

Mike

The waterfront has historically been an industry first area, and the Viaduct was built over existing railroad ROW.
Similar to the Eastbank Freeway and Marquam Bridge in Portland, which is why the 'restoring waterfront access' argument baffles me, even though removing the Viaduct for Seattle and similarly removing the Eastbank (provided it's also replaced with a tunnel) is ultimately a good thing.

Good thing the Seattle city government and waterfront boosters don't use restoration to describe the project as a whole. A few things are being restored, however, like the Washington Street Pergola, a juvenile salmon habitat, and at least one "natural" beach.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 10, 2019, 12:12:21 AM
Looks like demolition will be delayed a bit. At least we can have our last, last, last goodbye.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzA_RFGV4AAeIzi.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 10, 2019, 01:34:36 AM
I'm pretty impressed that people keep getting up onto the old viaduct. I could have swore they fenced it off a bit more securely.

Not that I care, of course. This is its last show.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 10, 2019, 01:56:15 AM
The fence on Elliott Avenue's ramp has been left open for at least a week now...
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 10, 2019, 02:19:14 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 10, 2019, 01:56:15 AM
The fence on Elliott Avenue's ramp has been left open for at least a week now...

Well, if we hear the DOT complaining about trespassing again, at least we'll have an excuse.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MNHighwayMan on February 10, 2019, 10:43:23 AM
I'm a little sad that people have been vandalizing the old signs.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mrsman on February 11, 2019, 06:18:08 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 10, 2019, 10:43:23 AM
I'm a little sad that people have been vandalizing the old signs.
Is there any talk of signs or other parts of the viaduct being placed in a museum?

Nexus 5X

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 11, 2019, 07:03:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on February 10, 2019, 12:12:21 AM
Looks like demolition will be delayed a bit. At least we can have our last, last, last goodbye.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzA_RFGV4AAeIzi.jpg)
Quote from: mrsman on February 11, 2019, 06:18:08 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 10, 2019, 10:43:23 AM
I'm a little sad that people have been vandalizing the old signs.
Is there any talk of signs or other parts of the viaduct being placed in a museum?

The overhead signs had already been vandalized prior to the viaduct closing.

The space-age sign gantry will be preserved by MOHAI, but no word on the US-99 sign.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Duke87 on February 11, 2019, 07:47:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 07, 2019, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 07, 2019, 02:53:58 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 05, 2019, 09:08:56 PM
Traffic was extremely light for the conditions. People did as they were told and avoided driving...and it worked pretty great.

The Times reported on it: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/the-cars-just-disappeared-what-happened-to-the-90000-cars-a-day-the-viaduct-carried-before-it-closed/
They also knew it was temporary. That needs to be factored in as well.

Not sure how many people can reasonably adjust their schedule for three whole weeks. It was a temporary closure, but most people still had to get to work, go to school, etc. Transit and bikes seem to have picked up the slack, since the roads obviously didn't (the congestion wasn't much different than normal). It's not like the entirety of Hwy 99's users just up and left Seattle for three weeks.

The key question here is time. How long did it take the people using transit and bikes to get to work during the closure, and how long did it take when they drove?

If it normally takes me 30 minutes to commute by car, I might be willing to grin and bear a 60 minute commute via an alternative mode or combination of modes for three weeks knowing it's temporary. But I would not take kindly to suggestion that that longer commute should become the new normal.

On the other hand, if it normally takes me 30 minutes to commute by car and the alternative also takes 30 minutes... well, then it's not a big deal to make that change long term.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 11, 2019, 11:48:06 PM
I think people do have a tolerance for longer commutes by alternate modes, given that the time in transit can be used somewhat productively or leisurely (e.g. using your phone, which should be a big no-no for drivers).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 12, 2019, 01:36:11 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 11, 2019, 11:48:06 PM
I think people do have a tolerance for longer commutes by alternate modes, given that the time in transit can be used somewhat productively or leisurely (e.g. using your phone, which should be a big no-no for drivers).
What kind of people? I would heavily disagree if we're talking about most people with families.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on February 12, 2019, 10:27:42 AM
Ever since the Loma Prieta earthquake of 1989, I have been scared to drive on double-decker freeways, especially in earthquake-prone areas like Seattle, but I wouldn't mind driving in tunnels at all, so that is a welcome change for me. Not to mention the forthcoming Embarcadero-esque transformation of the Alaskan Way.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 12, 2019, 06:07:23 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 12, 2019, 01:36:11 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 11, 2019, 11:48:06 PM
I think people do have a tolerance for longer commutes by alternate modes, given that the time in transit can be used somewhat productively or leisurely (e.g. using your phone, which should be a big no-no for drivers).
What kind of people? I would heavily disagree if we're talking about most people with families.

I think families (well, everyone) appreciate a consistent commute. Thing is with driving, it can really vary a lot. Especially with crashes or weather. Buses can be impacted by those things too, but less so with bus lanes. Light rail and metro trains are rarely affected by weather (and certainly not traffic), so they consistently take the same time to get from A to B.

A consistently long commute can be annoying, but it's much more tolerable by transit as you can do other things (as Bruce indicates).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 12, 2019, 08:01:20 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 12, 2019, 06:07:23 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 12, 2019, 01:36:11 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 11, 2019, 11:48:06 PM
I think people do have a tolerance for longer commutes by alternate modes, given that the time in transit can be used somewhat productively or leisurely (e.g. using your phone, which should be a big no-no for drivers).
What kind of people? I would heavily disagree if we're talking about most people with families.

I think families (well, everyone) appreciate a consistent commute. Thing is with driving, it can really vary a lot. Especially with crashes or weather. Buses can be impacted by those things too, but less so with bus lanes. Light rail and metro trains are rarely affected by weather (and certainly not traffic), so they consistently take the same time to get from A to B.

A consistently long commute can be annoying, but it's much more tolerable by transit as you can do other things (as Bruce indicates).
I can't argue with that. However with autonomous cars on the horizon, planners should be aware they might not have this advantage for long they should be looking at every gimmick they can to entice more people to use mass transit. One great thing about mass transit is the social aspect would be enhanced with things like bars or gathering areas on trains VS. having the entire train designed to pack as many people on as possible. They could get away with this by increasing frequencies to make up for the lost seats.

I am on the verge of completely giving up on mass transit in LA entirely as loyal red line user. I have to wait nearly 20 minutes, 8-12 minutes on average, and it is awful. There is nothing to do at the stations besides bury your face in your phone, it doesn't foster a very interactive experience, then when the trains finally come they're packed and smell like shit. I want to support Metro, but it's getting very hard to do so. 
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 12:40:32 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 12, 2019, 08:01:20 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 12, 2019, 06:07:23 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 12, 2019, 01:36:11 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 11, 2019, 11:48:06 PM
I think people do have a tolerance for longer commutes by alternate modes, given that the time in transit can be used somewhat productively or leisurely (e.g. using your phone, which should be a big no-no for drivers).
What kind of people? I would heavily disagree if we're talking about most people with families.

I think families (well, everyone) appreciate a consistent commute. Thing is with driving, it can really vary a lot. Especially with crashes or weather. Buses can be impacted by those things too, but less so with bus lanes. Light rail and metro trains are rarely affected by weather (and certainly not traffic), so they consistently take the same time to get from A to B.

A consistently long commute can be annoying, but it's much more tolerable by transit as you can do other things (as Bruce indicates).
I can't argue with that. However with autonomous cars on the horizon, planners should be aware they might not have this advantage for long they should be looking at every gimmick they can to entice more people to use mass transit. One great thing about mass transit is the social aspect would be enhanced with things like bars or gathering areas on trains VS. having the entire train designed to pack as many people on as possible. They could get away with this by increasing frequencies to make up for the lost seats.

I don't think there's any telling how autonomous cars will change our transport network. Seems to me that they'll probably need a network of grade-separated roads where they can operate at 200mph or something. Not that that would be any faster than a bullet train! Or just drive at the speeds we do now, but...better than us.

Typically trains and buses are designed to cram people in so that they are as efficient as possible. This way, they can increase frequency and try and pay back the taxpayers. Hard to do when an entire train car is devoted to drinks. Those could always be added to stations, though.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 12, 2019, 08:01:20 PM
I am on the verge of completely giving up on mass transit in LA entirely as loyal red line user. I have to wait nearly 20 minutes, 8-12 minutes on average, and it is awful. There is nothing to do at the stations besides bury your face in your phone, it doesn't foster a very interactive experience, then when the trains finally come they're packed and smell like shit. I want to support Metro, but it's getting very hard to do so.

I'm becoming a regular Washington Metro rider myself. My experience has been good, as the trains come usually every 2-6 minutes, are clean, well lit, and have cell service. But you're right, it's mostly a phone-in-face, earbuds-in experience. People who are commuting aren't really social to begin with, but that's especially so on transit because it's perceived as rude to be super chatty or loud (or obnoxious).

But you highlight an issue with transit. It's only any good if its frequent and clean. All I can say is, you have to be ready with your wallet if you want that. But it can't just happen overnight. In the same way that road widening are lengthy and costly, transit upgrades can take a while and cost a fair amount. But as a measure of "people per square foot", it's still a wiser investment long-term.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on February 13, 2019, 02:10:43 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 12:40:32 AM
I don't think there's any telling how autonomous cars will change our transport network. Seems to me that they'll probably need a network of grade-separated roads where they can operate at 200mph or something. Not that that would be any faster than a bullet train! Or just drive at the speeds we do now, but...better than us.

I don't think we can achieve speeds that high unless we get manually-driven cars off the road entirely. You just can't get drivers to drive at that speed.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 13, 2019, 03:49:16 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 12:40:32 AM

I think families (well, everyone) appreciate a consistent commute. Thing is with driving, it can really vary a lot. Especially with crashes or weather. Buses can be impacted by those things too, but less so with bus lanes. Light rail and metro trains are rarely affected by weather (and certainly not traffic), so they consistently take the same time to get from A to B.

A consistently long commute can be annoying, but it's much more tolerable by transit as you can do other things (as Bruce indicates).

I don't think there's any telling how autonomous cars will change our transport network. Seems to me that they'll probably need a network of grade-separated roads where they can operate at 200mph or something. Not that that would be any faster than a bullet train! Or just drive at the speeds we do now, but...better than us.

Typically trains and buses are designed to cram people in so that they are as efficient as possible. This way, they can increase frequency and try and pay back the taxpayers. Hard to do when an entire train car is devoted to drinks. Those could always be added to stations, though.[/quote]I still believe we are far enough away from widespread level 5 autonomous cars where transit planners can be comfortable they will still have the advantage of mass transit being superior over solo car driving, allowing for its users to safely multitask and such. There are pros and cons to each mode of transit on this one is just hard to beat.

I don't propose an entire train car be dedicated to drinks, but I would think on intercity lines such as MetroLink a level could be dedicated to a full service bar and perhaps a theatre room on each train. I don't think it would work on subways or light-rail but as you said, I think stations could be rethought and redesigned. I honestly don't know how other countries are in this respect, but when considering that it's also important to factor in their car culture as well.

Still, I agree we likely won't fully know the implications of fully self driving cars. This sort of technology, if one considers it to be AI, has the possibility to become the new industrial revolution, IMHO. 

Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 12:40:32 AMI'm becoming a regular Washington Metro rider myself. My experience has been good, as the trains come usually every 2-6 minutes, are clean, well lit, and have cell service. But you're right, it's mostly a phone-in-face, earbuds-in experience. People who are commuting aren't really social to begin with, but that's especially so on transit because it's perceived as rude to be super chatty or loud (or obnoxious).

But you highlight an issue with transit. It's only any good if its frequent and clean. All I can say is, you have to be ready with your wallet if you want that. But it can't just happen overnight. In the same way that road widening are lengthy and costly, transit upgrades can take a while and cost a fair amount. But as a measure of "people per square foot", it's still a wiser investment long-term.
Yeah I will usually keep to myself on transit as to be mindful of others. I think however there is still something to be said being around others with the potential of interaction which is why I rate a higher social experience being a pro for mass transit over cars.

LA Metro is a complete mess, IMO. In this case, I find myself supporting quality over quantity. LA is desperately trying to build a vast rail network but at what cost? Bus service which accounts for a super majority of its ridership? It's existing rail lines which are falling in disrepair? Likewise with Van Nuys-San Fernando line(as is the case with Expo Line), it's essentially a glorified streetcar. You have to ask yourself, unless one lives right next to an expo line station, what is the advantage of taking the train in this case? That's even harder to justify if said person has a car just due to the long wait times at each station outside of rush hour.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 13, 2019, 03:54:23 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on February 13, 2019, 02:10:43 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 12:40:32 AM
I don't think there's any telling how autonomous cars will change our transport network. Seems to me that they'll probably need a network of grade-separated roads where they can operate at 200mph or something. Not that that would be any faster than a bullet train! Or just drive at the speeds we do now, but...better than us.

I don't think we can achieve speeds that high unless we get manually-driven cars off the road entirely. You just can't get drivers to drive at that speed.
Two possibilities. One is that "manual(not referring to gear shifting)" driving will be outlawed either on certain corridors or perhaps entirely in certain areas. The other are new networks built perhaps like HO/T or Express lanes where self driving cars are able to achieve higher speeds.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MantyMadTown on February 13, 2019, 02:53:30 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 13, 2019, 03:54:23 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on February 13, 2019, 02:10:43 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 12:40:32 AM
I don't think there's any telling how autonomous cars will change our transport network. Seems to me that they'll probably need a network of grade-separated roads where they can operate at 200mph or something. Not that that would be any faster than a bullet train! Or just drive at the speeds we do now, but...better than us.

I don't think we can achieve speeds that high unless we get manually-driven cars off the road entirely. You just can't get drivers to drive at that speed.
Two possibilities. One is that "manual(not referring to gear shifting)" driving will be outlawed either on certain corridors or perhaps entirely in certain areas. The other are new networks built perhaps like HO/T or Express lanes where self driving cars are able to achieve higher speeds.

Those sound like reasonable accommodations. If autonomous vehicles are allowed to travel at such high speeds, they should have designated roads for them but hopefully they won't take up so many of the roads that manual drivers won't have any roads to travel on. If I had an unlimited budget, I would create new roads specifically for autonomous vehicles to travel on, and designate express lanes for the rest (i.e. the most heavily traveled freeways).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 13, 2019, 07:45:21 PM
The US 99 sign is gone.

https://twitter.com/DavidColeAIA/status/1095779802307383298
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MNHighwayMan on February 13, 2019, 07:49:50 PM
That has to mean that someone saved it then, right?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: silverback1065 on February 13, 2019, 07:54:17 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 13, 2019, 07:49:50 PM
That has to mean that someone saved it then, right?

contractor probably kept it. if the dot doesn't want it, they usually keep it. 
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 16, 2019, 09:38:09 PM
Viaduct demolition has officially begun on the mainline:

https://twitter.com/BerthaDigsSR99/status/1096894945988816896

https://twitter.com/KING5Seattle/status/1096858064127512576
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 16, 2019, 09:57:05 PM
What's the estimated completion date for the demolition and construction of whatever they are building in it's place?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 16, 2019, 10:22:09 PM
The demolition should be complete by the end of June.

The waterfront revitalization (https://waterfrontseattle.org/budget-schedule) is being done in stages, concurrent with the redevelopment of the state ferry terminal at Colman Dock (which is planned to be finished in 2023).

The main project, creating the boulevard and park along Alaskan Way, should be opened to traffic in 2021 and finished completely in 2023. The new elevated parks and overlooks, along with the rebuilt ferry terminal bridge, will open around the same time.

(https://thespaces.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Seattle_Proposed_Overlook_Balcony_view_south_web-990x642.jpg)

This Seattle Times article (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/special-reports/seattles-new-waterfront-what-it-might-look-like-and-why/) has a lot of details about what the new waterfront will look like, assuming full funding and construction.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on February 16, 2019, 11:55:39 PM
I'm really looking forward to the new waterfront!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on February 17, 2019, 12:21:32 AM
I just uploaded a video showing the Alaskan Way Viaduct, as well as a video showing the walk through the new tunnel filmed on February 2nd. I know I already posted it elsewhere on the forum, (here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19809.msg2395104#new)), but I though it would be appropriate to post it here as well. Enjoy!

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 18, 2019, 09:03:19 PM
The north end of the viaduct is very much gone:

https://twitter.com/genebalk/status/1097636969469771776
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2019, 09:44:28 PM
If the Big Dig wasn't enough; I'm hoping once the waterfront and boulevard portion opens, it can show cities that investments like this, though costly and prone to overruns/missed deadlines, are worth it in the end.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 18, 2019, 11:08:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2019, 09:44:28 PM
If the Big Dig wasn't enough; I'm hoping once the waterfront and boulevard portion opens, it can show cities that investments like this, though costly and prone to overruns/missed deadlines, are worth it in the end.

I think we've long come to the conclusion that the whole tunnel wasn't needed. Hopefully cities do learn that highway removal is easy and painless once you cut through all the psuedoscience.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on February 19, 2019, 02:04:02 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 18, 2019, 11:08:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2019, 09:44:28 PM
If the Big Dig wasn't enough; I'm hoping once the waterfront and boulevard portion opens, it can show cities that investments like this, though costly and prone to overruns/missed deadlines, are worth it in the end.

I think we've long come to the conclusion that the whole tunnel wasn't needed. Hopefully cities do learn that highway removal is easy and painless once you cut through all the psuedoscience.

Well, it's still nice to have an alternate thru route through downtown. I-5 should not be the only high-capacity road through downtown. 99 functions as a nice reliever route, especially in the afternoons when traffic is really bad on I-5 SB in north Seattle.

Building the tunnel was a good compromise between getting that ugly viaduct off the waterfront and maintaining an alternate high-capacity route through downtown. It was 100% worth it in the end. I'll miss the views from the viaduct, but I'm looking forward to experiencing the waterfront without the viaduct and being able to enjoy the views while getting some exercise.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 19, 2019, 02:27:55 AM
I think they're going to need to do some serious work near the north portal, if the backups towards Republican aren't reduced after the Dearborn exit opens. Miles-long backups within days of opening is not a good long-term indicator of its ability to handle traffic.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 19, 2019, 02:40:59 AM
The viaduct could have been demolished without the tunnel (which is going to cost quite a bit more than the $3.3B price due to the lawsuits), but the political will just wasn't there until it was too late. McGinn tried to stop the machine, and it just kept going.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 19, 2019, 03:08:33 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 18, 2019, 11:08:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2019, 09:44:28 PM
If the Big Dig wasn't enough; I'm hoping once the waterfront and boulevard portion opens, it can show cities that investments like this, though costly and prone to overruns/missed deadlines, are worth it in the end.

I think we've long come to the conclusion that the whole tunnel wasn't needed. Hopefully cities do learn that highway removal is easy and painless once you cut through all the psuedoscience.
I completely disagree.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 19, 2019, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 19, 2019, 03:08:33 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 18, 2019, 11:08:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2019, 09:44:28 PM
If the Big Dig wasn't enough; I'm hoping once the waterfront and boulevard portion opens, it can show cities that investments like this, though costly and prone to overruns/missed deadlines, are worth it in the end.

I think we've long come to the conclusion that the whole tunnel wasn't needed. Hopefully cities do learn that highway removal is easy and painless once you cut through all the psuedoscience.

I completely disagree.

I can't really think of a freeway removal that had a permanent, noticeable effect on traffic. Looking at San Francisco, I don't think rebuilding the Embarcadero Fwy would relieve any issues, and Portland's Harbor Drive...I don't even know what that did for traffic to begin with.

Seattle's Hwy 99 is part of a larger important corridor than either of those freeway removals, but that's mostly because of the man-made infrastructure preceding it. Aurora could have easily been converted to at-grade status in South Lake Union, perhaps designed to lead directly into downtown one-way streets. In the south end, it should remain roughly as-is with all the railway crossings, but it could have been tied directly into Alaskan Way, which is being designed to lead into Western & Elliott, two important one-way streets.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 19, 2019, 02:13:30 PM
Kind of hard to judge those cities as traffic is already a nightmare. I'm sure you could count the number of freeway removals in the US with your hand and how many of those were just stubs? We aren't talking interstates and in Seattle's case this isn't a freeway removal per say but a redesign of the freeway.

Over 50k cars a day have been using it. It's easy to plan around a shutdown when you know it's temporary, but for better of everyone, where would those 50k cars a day go without it? If you want to say mass transit, well, this case is better as there are more options than being forced to use transit or use surface streets. It truly is better for everyone.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on February 19, 2019, 05:16:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 19, 2019, 02:27:55 AM
I think they're going to need to do some serious work near the north portal, if the backups towards Republican aren't reduced after the Dearborn exit opens. Miles-long backups within days of opening is not a good long-term indicator of its ability to handle traffic.
They replaced a two lane tunnel with a two lane tunnel. Is it that much worse than before? People could be staring at the new shiny for a little while perhaps.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Kacie Jane on February 19, 2019, 06:32:30 PM
They replaced a three-lane viaduct with access to/from either Western/Elliott or Aurora, with a two-lane tunnel with no access to Western/Elliott.

Your logic assumes that the two-lane Battery Street Tunnel was a bottleneck, but the amount of traffic exiting onto Western/entering from Elliott makes that not necessarily the case.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Duke87 on February 19, 2019, 07:53:17 PM
Quote from: Bruce on February 11, 2019, 11:48:06 PM
I think people do have a tolerance for longer commutes by alternate modes, given that the time in transit can be used somewhat productively or leisurely (e.g. using your phone, which should be a big no-no for drivers).

I'd say this depends on the details. An hour long commute that's a single train on which I can reliably get a seat is a lot more tolerable than 10 minutes on a bus, get off, wait 5 minutes for a train, spend 20 minutes on the train, get off, wait 10 minutes for another bus, then spend 15 minutes on said bus before reaching final destination, on average needing to stand due to lack of open seats on 2 out of the 3 legs - even though both of these things take the same amount of time.

Quote from: jakeroot on February 19, 2019, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 19, 2019, 03:08:33 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 18, 2019, 11:08:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2019, 09:44:28 PM
If the Big Dig wasn't enough; I'm hoping once the waterfront and boulevard portion opens, it can show cities that investments like this, though costly and prone to overruns/missed deadlines, are worth it in the end.

I think we've long come to the conclusion that the whole tunnel wasn't needed. Hopefully cities do learn that highway removal is easy and painless once you cut through all the psuedoscience.

I completely disagree.

I can't really think of a freeway removal that had a permanent, noticeable effect on traffic. Looking at San Francisco, I don't think rebuilding the Embarcadero Fwy would relieve any issues, and Portland's Harbor Drive...I don't even know what that did for traffic to begin with.

Harbor Drive was functionally replaced by I-5, so it wasn't removed so much as it was simply moved directly across the river.

The stub portion of the Embarcadero that was built didn't accomplish a whole lot on its own, which is part of why it was deemed not worth rebuilding after it got quaked. But it would have been considerably more consequential and useful if it were finished as originally planned and connected to the Golden Gate Bridge, and I do think that had that occurred prior to 1989, the damaged structure would have been repaired or rebuilt (and it would be regularly topping 21st century lists of freeways that urban activists want removed - but as a through route with no alternative, this would be a hard sell).


At any rate, "traffic" (meaning congestion) is the wrong metric to look at. Four lanes of traffic moving at 20 mph may not seem any better than two lanes of traffic moving at 20 mph since people on the road are experiencing the same level of delay either way, but you have to look at this from a broad perspective rather than an individually centered one - the four lane road is achieving twice the throughput and, therefore, contributing more to people's mobility than the two lane road is.

The best cases for freeway removal are cases like Rochester's Inner Loop, where there was very little traffic to begin with and the road just wasn't really that useful to very many people. If the road is well-utilized, a lack of horrendous congestion resulting from its removal should not be used to excuse it - this doesn't mean the road wasn't necessary, what it means is people are recognizing that they can't get there from here and rather than causing extra congestion trying are staying home or going elsewhere. This loss of mobility does have economic and quality of life implications even if it doesn't have visible impacts on congestion.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on February 19, 2019, 09:25:05 PM
^ Duke87 is spot on regarding the Embarcadero Freeway and Harbor Drive. The first was a glorified offramp and the second was replaced by two actual freeways (Harbor Drive was a crummy substandard 50s-era expressway at best). Also worth mentioning that the Cypress Street Viaduct got replaced with I-880 on a new alignment, although that was almost ten years after the 1989 quake.

Anyway, for those curious about what a drive through the new tunnel is like, here's the video for you:

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on February 19, 2019, 10:20:43 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on February 19, 2019, 06:32:30 PM
They replaced a three-lane viaduct with access to/from either Western/Elliott or Aurora, with a two-lane tunnel with no access to Western/Elliott.

Your logic assumes that the two-lane Battery Street Tunnel was a bottleneck, but the amount of traffic exiting onto Western/entering from Elliott makes that not necessarily the case.
But where is that Western/Elliott traffic going? Are they all going up and getting on before the tunnel mouth? I don't see why, if they don't have access, there would be worse traffic into the tunnel.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on February 19, 2019, 10:25:23 PM
Wow, that tunnel is REALLY long!  What I wonder about is how did Big Bertha get steered to create the gentle curves of the tunnel? 

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 02:13:04 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 19, 2019, 07:53:17 PM
At any rate, "traffic" (meaning congestion) is the wrong metric to look at. Four lanes of traffic moving at 20 mph may not seem any better than two lanes of traffic moving at 20 mph since people on the road are experiencing the same level of delay either way, but you have to look at this from a broad perspective rather than an individually centered one - the four lane road is achieving twice the throughput and, therefore, contributing more to people's mobility than the two lane road is.

Aren't you just proving the existence of induced demand? If you double the capacity of a road, but it takes the same time to travel it, at a basic level, that means twice as many cars are using it as before. Why bother with the extra lanes if they're going to fill right up? Do all these extra trips have to be absorbed by the road system? The whole "mobility" metric seems odd to me, if the best a commuter can hope for is ten lanes all moving at 20mph.

Not to change the subject, but isn't it easier to reduce congestion by reducing the number of cars?

Quote from: Duke87 on February 19, 2019, 07:53:17 PM
If the road is well-utilized, a lack of horrendous congestion resulting from its removal should not be used to excuse it - this doesn't mean the road wasn't necessary, what it means is people are recognizing that they can't get there from here (https://youtu.be/gD3cYh5Pp1I) and rather than causing extra congestion trying are staying home or going elsewhere. This loss of mobility does have economic and quality of life implications even if it doesn't have visible impacts on congestion.

But we don't know that for sure, yet. The only available data is that more cyclists were passing through various check-points than before the closure, and water-taxi ridership tripled. So, evidently, at least a few thousand people weren't able to avoid a commute. Certainly there were some that tele-worked, but there's no way that could be anywhere near the majority.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "loss of mobility". You mean to those who stayed home during the closure? Or to those who chose not to drive? In either case, I would not equate the "driveability" of one's regular commute with a languishing quality of life standard.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 20, 2019, 02:48:13 AM
Quote from: nexus73 on February 19, 2019, 10:25:23 PM
Wow, that tunnel is REALLY long!  What I wonder about is how did Big Bertha get steered to create the gentle curves of the tunnel? 

Rick

The TBM was controlled by an operator in the back cab, who followed a preset path that is confirmed by a laser-guided system.

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2019, 08:06:16 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 02:13:04 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 19, 2019, 07:53:17 PM
At any rate, "traffic" (meaning congestion) is the wrong metric to look at. Four lanes of traffic moving at 20 mph may not seem any better than two lanes of traffic moving at 20 mph since people on the road are experiencing the same level of delay either way, but you have to look at this from a broad perspective rather than an individually centered one - the four lane road is achieving twice the throughput and, therefore, contributing more to people's mobility than the two lane road is.

Aren't you just proving the existence of induced demand? If you double the capacity of a road, but it takes the same time to travel it, at a basic level, that means twice as many cars are using it as before. Why bother with the extra lanes if they're going to fill right up? Do all these extra trips have to be absorbed by the road system? The whole "mobility" metric seems odd to me, if the best a commuter can hope for is ten lanes all moving at 20mph.

Not to change the subject, but isn't it easier to reduce congestion by reducing the number of cars?

No.

You need to look at the region in general.  Let's say those 2 additional lanes filled up quickly.  But it took a lot of traffic off local residential roadways.  That's not induced demand.  That's removing traffic from the side streets...the streets that Waze is guiding people down to avoid traffic on the highways.  Place it on the highway where it belongs.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: silverback1065 on February 20, 2019, 12:08:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 19, 2019, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 19, 2019, 03:08:33 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 18, 2019, 11:08:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2019, 09:44:28 PM
If the Big Dig wasn't enough; I'm hoping once the waterfront and boulevard portion opens, it can show cities that investments like this, though costly and prone to overruns/missed deadlines, are worth it in the end.

I think we've long come to the conclusion that the whole tunnel wasn't needed. Hopefully cities do learn that highway removal is easy and painless once you cut through all the psuedoscience.

I completely disagree.

I can't really think of a freeway removal that had a permanent, noticeable effect on traffic. Looking at San Francisco, I don't think rebuilding the Embarcadero Fwy would relieve any issues, and Portland's Harbor Drive...I don't even know what that did for traffic to begin with.

Seattle's Hwy 99 is part of a larger important corridor than either of those freeway removals, but that's mostly because of the man-made infrastructure preceding it. Aurora could have easily been converted to at-grade status in South Lake Union, perhaps designed to lead directly into downtown one-way streets. In the south end, it should remain roughly as-is with all the railway crossings, but it could have been tied directly into Alaskan Way, which is being designed to lead into Western & Elliott, two important one-way streets.

meaningless, none of those removals were through routes, they were all spurs.  come back with a through route removal not affecting anything. 
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 12:37:09 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2019, 08:06:16 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 02:13:04 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 19, 2019, 07:53:17 PM
At any rate, "traffic" (meaning congestion) is the wrong metric to look at. Four lanes of traffic moving at 20 mph may not seem any better than two lanes of traffic moving at 20 mph since people on the road are experiencing the same level of delay either way, but you have to look at this from a broad perspective rather than an individually centered one - the four lane road is achieving twice the throughput and, therefore, contributing more to people's mobility than the two lane road is.

Aren't you just proving the existence of induced demand? If you double the capacity of a road, but it takes the same time to travel it, at a basic level, that means twice as many cars are using it as before. Why bother with the extra lanes if they're going to fill right up? Do all these extra trips have to be absorbed by the road system? The whole "mobility" metric seems odd to me, if the best a commuter can hope for is ten lanes all moving at 20mph.

Not to change the subject, but isn't it easier to reduce congestion by reducing the number of cars?

No.

You need to look at the region in general.  Let's say those 2 additional lanes filled up quickly.  But it took a lot of traffic off local residential roadways.  That's not induced demand.  That's removing traffic from the side streets...the streets that Waze is guiding people down to avoid traffic on the highways.  Place it on the highway where it belongs.

Are you implying that there are a maximum number of cars on the road? The data doesn't seem to support that, not least because there are ~40% more vehicle registrations in 2016 compared to 1990. That's easily explained by an increase in population since that time, but unless the population is going to decline or stagnate (the case for very few metro areas), why would the pattern change in the future?

Also, if traffic were detouring to the neighborhood streets because of the 20mph freeway drive, why would all of those neighborhood detouring vehicles suddenly choose the freeway when the freeway isn't any faster than it used to be? If all those cars switched over to the freeway, only to realize that the freeway is just as slow as it used to be, they're going to go right back to their old ways.

late edit: I cannot find any data on the matter, but I would love to see how many additional lane miles of public roads there are now, compared to 1990. For your sake, I hope it's not around 40%! Although, if it's significantly less than 40%, we probably need to reduce car ownership. More than 40%, and I suppose we're "staying ahead of congestion".
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 12:42:28 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 20, 2019, 12:08:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 19, 2019, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 19, 2019, 03:08:33 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 18, 2019, 11:08:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2019, 09:44:28 PM
If the Big Dig wasn't enough; I'm hoping once the waterfront and boulevard portion opens, it can show cities that investments like this, though costly and prone to overruns/missed deadlines, are worth it in the end.

I think we've long come to the conclusion that the whole tunnel wasn't needed. Hopefully cities do learn that highway removal is easy and painless once you cut through all the psuedoscience.

I completely disagree.

I can't really think of a freeway removal that had a permanent, noticeable effect on traffic. Looking at San Francisco, I don't think rebuilding the Embarcadero Fwy would relieve any issues, and Portland's Harbor Drive...I don't even know what that did for traffic to begin with.

Seattle's Hwy 99 is part of a larger important corridor than either of those freeway removals, but that's mostly because of the man-made infrastructure preceding it. Aurora could have easily been converted to at-grade status in South Lake Union, perhaps designed to lead directly into downtown one-way streets. In the south end, it should remain roughly as-is with all the railway crossings, but it could have been tied directly into Alaskan Way, which is being designed to lead into Western & Elliott, two important one-way streets.

meaningless, none of those removals were through routes, they were all spurs.  come back with a through route removal not affecting anything.

As far as I know, there are no modern examples of "through" freeways being removed in the US, without being replaced by something else. The best parallel for Seattle would be Portland's Harbor Drive, which was replaced by I-5. It could have been possible, back in the 1970s, to tear down the Alaskan Way Viaduct, as it was no longer the *major* through route, with I-5 being built on the other side of downtown. Yes, there were major roads that led to the viaduct, but those roads led to downtown streets for decades before the viaduct.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Duke87 on February 20, 2019, 09:09:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 02:13:04 AM
Aren't you just proving the existence of induced demand? If you double the capacity of a road, but it takes the same time to travel it, at a basic level, that means twice as many cars are using it as before. Why bother with the extra lanes if they're going to fill right up? Do all these extra trips have to be absorbed by the road system? The whole "mobility" metric seems odd to me, if the best a commuter can hope for is ten lanes all moving at 20mph.

Not induced demand, latent demand. The road expansion doesn't create the demand, it merely allows it to be realized whereas without the road it simply is not met.

At any rate, as for "Why bother with the extra lanes if they're going to fill right up?", this question makes about as much sense as asking "Why should I cook more food if it's just going to get eaten right away?". We don't build lanes with the idea they're going to sit there empty, we build them with the idea that people are going to use them. If they fill right up, that's good! That means people are using them. That's exactly what makes it worthwhile.

QuoteNot to change the subject, but isn't it easier to reduce congestion by reducing the number of cars?

In some cases. It depends on the specifics of the situation.

Also, road improvements and improvements for transit and other modes are not mutually exclusive. It is acceptable to do both.

QuoteI'm also not sure what you mean by "loss of mobility". You mean to those who stayed home during the closure? Or to those who chose not to drive? In either case, I would not equate the "driveability" of one's regular commute with a languishing quality of life standard.

I'm speaking more broadly than about the viaduct shutdown here. I'm also speaking more broadly than about people's regular commutes - I'm looking at mobility in terms of diversity of destinations available. Basically, how many different places can a person travel to within a certain timeframe. The higher this number is, the greater the number of employment opportunities are available to the person, the greater the number of destinations that can be used for social or leisure purposes, the easier people who's jobs involve making field visits are, etc.

It logically follows that anything which increases the number of destinations reachable improves a person's quality of life by increasing opportunities, while anything which decreases the number of destinations reachable negatively impacts a person'q quality of life by taking opportunities away from them, possibly even taking away the reachability of destinations they had grown to like or depend on.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on February 20, 2019, 11:48:21 PM
I went around the three main demolition sites yesterday to snag some pictures. Things looked pretty active at all three, though the equipment was mostly idle at two of them.

North end

The view from 1st Avenue and Battery Street at the north end of the viaduct:

(https://i.imgur.com/Q4spHZF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/6jghxZN.jpg)

And looking at a section crossing over Western Avenue at Bell Street (which include some barbed wire fencing):

(https://i.imgur.com/UT2vIW6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/XrGqpQc.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3wkkw9p.jpg)

Some of these machines have water hoses built in, so an extra worker to spray down the debris (and dust) isn't even needed:

(https://i.imgur.com/dEUm9dx.jpg)

Columbia Street ramp

Note the office of our favorite new source off to the left:

(https://i.imgur.com/6SD6Ms0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QMDL3Lj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lcmjqAD.jpg)

Alaskan Way & Pike-Pine

(https://i.imgur.com/qi1r1y0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/NrCwRV8.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/iRTj5UD.jpg)

From MarketFront/Steinbrueck Park:

(https://i.imgur.com/kAZPO3Z.jpg)

Dearborn Ramp

The new northbound offramp from SR 99 to Dearborn Street also opened yesterday, with a shoulder/bus lane. The ramp is designed to withstand a major earthquake with shape-memory alloy bars and flexible concrete (more details here (https://www.seattlepi.com/viaducttotunnel/article/South-Dearborn-SR-99-off-ramp-open-earthquake-13628673.php)).

(https://i.imgur.com/cXDFO0x.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/EgmrWIr.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/uVlD5RA.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on February 21, 2019, 12:33:10 AM
That flexible concrete will need to withstand more than 9.0 and then add in 6 minutes of shake and bake time.  If it is the last thing standing in Puget Sound after the Cascadia Subduction Zone breaks loose, then it will have proven itself.  Too bad the material is 90 times the cost of regular concrete and rebar.  I hope that production techniques take the same curve as they did for HDTV's so the price differential is reduced by an order of magnitude and then some.

Speaking of material returning to its shape, a story from the crashed alien craft in Roswell involved a small piece of metallic foil that when wadded up, would then return to its original flat shape.  Is the story true?  Who knows for sure?  I do like the idea of such a material though!

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 21, 2019, 02:28:07 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2019, 09:09:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 02:13:04 AM
Aren't you just proving the existence of induced demand? If you double the capacity of a road, but it takes the same time to travel it, at a basic level, that means twice as many cars are using it as before. Why bother with the extra lanes if they're going to fill right up? Do all these extra trips have to be absorbed by the road system? The whole "mobility" metric seems odd to me, if the best a commuter can hope for is ten lanes all moving at 20mph.

Not induced demand, latent demand. The road expansion doesn't create the demand, it merely allows it to be realized whereas without the road it simply is not met.

At any rate, as for "Why bother with the extra lanes if they're going to fill right up?", this question makes about as much sense as asking "Why should I cook more food if it's just going to get eaten right away?". We don't build lanes with the idea they're going to sit there empty, we build them with the idea that people are going to use them. If they fill right up, that's good! That means people are using them. That's exactly what makes it worthwhile.

What's wrong with the roads drivers were already using? If the answer is, "they were local roads", what's going to stop drivers from using them again later on? Especially if the freeway ends up just as slow as before.

That seems like an apples-to-oranges comparison (with food being food, and driving being a sub-category of transportation), but I'll work past that. Obviously we aren't building extra lanes for no one. That would be a massive waste of time. But when we widen a road, who are we widening it for? The drivers detouring to other roads? The cars of the people that don't live in the area yet? Seems to me that we widen roads for cars, not people. That is not good planning.

Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2019, 09:09:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 02:13:04 AM
Not to change the subject, but isn't it easier to reduce congestion by reducing the number of cars?

In some cases. It depends on the specifics of the situation.

Also, road improvements and improvements for transit and other modes are not mutually exclusive. It is acceptable to do both.

I see my statement has put you on the fence (for once)! It's acceptable to do both, of course. In fact, I would encourage this, since drivers are often a major source of income for alternative transport methods (and not pissing them off is pretty important, politically). But up to a point, it becomes too expensive to do both. I assume most drivers would be OK with bus lanes if, each time one was built, another general purpose lane was built. But adding just one lane can be extremely expensive. Adding two?  :spin:

Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2019, 09:09:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 02:13:04 AM
I'm also not sure what you mean by "loss of mobility". You mean to those who stayed home during the closure? Or to those who chose not to drive? In either case, I would not equate the "driveability" of one's regular commute with a languishing quality of life standard.

I'm speaking more broadly than about the viaduct shutdown here. I'm also speaking more broadly than about people's regular commutes - I'm looking at mobility in terms of diversity of destinations available. Basically, how many different places can a person travel to within a certain timeframe. The higher this number is, the greater the number of employment opportunities are available to the person, the greater the number of destinations that can be used for social or leisure purposes, the easier people who's jobs involve making field visits are, etc.

It logically follows that anything which increases the number of destinations reachable improves a person's quality of life by increasing opportunities, while anything which decreases the number of destinations reachable negatively impacts a person's quality of life by taking opportunities away from them, possibly even taking away the reachability of destinations they had grown to like or depend on.

At what point does the literal cost of that freedom outweigh the benefits of all those destinations? Because if you're trying to imply that the car is the ultimate expression of freedom, of course I wouldn't disagree. But it's a very expensive display of that freedom. Being a 23-year-old college student, I know a lot of people who continually weigh this consideration. Personally, if I didn't have a car, I'd have an extra $600/month that I'd be able to spend on all sorts of things...rent on a more centrally-located apartment, for instance.

I also wouldn't say that, "more destinations = higher quality of life". Why not, "easy access to what a person wants = higher quality of life"?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on February 21, 2019, 03:10:52 PM
Jakeroot, when you mention $600 a month for individual vehicle ownership costs, you have hit the nail on the head for young people in these times.  Even if there were no smartphones, which have captured the attention of the younger generation, were the expenses this high it would be a genuine struggle to keep the wheels rolling.

Back in the day I bought cars that ran for as little as $10.  Insurance was not mandatory.  Gas was well under $1 a gallon.  State fees were a pittance.  On the other hand, electronic devices were costly.  Guess what?  We used to have young people in vehicles everywhere but not many were going to be set up well in consumer electronics.  Today is a reverse of the past.  Given how much I love vehicles and their operation, I sure feel sorry for the young of the present.  On the other hand I would have given my right and left nuts for something as great as the net and all things computerized back then!

If you live in a metro area, then by all means ditch the rig if you can set up your life that way.  There are many ways to get wheels going without owning them.  Once you figure out the mix which works for you, there will be your $600 savings. As a practical matter, this would be my solution if I was in your position.  It still makes me sad that you cannot enjoy with ease the fun that comes from owning a vehicle and using it like those of us in the past did. 

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 21, 2019, 05:04:26 PM
 :-D :-D right and left nuts hahaha you and a few others I'm sure!

I will say that, back when you were my age (1979 it seems), $600 was "only" ~$172 (adjusted for inflation), which doesn't make it sound as bad. But undoubtedly, fuel costs have risen, insurance rates have risen, basic cheap transport is harder to come by, no one knows how to work on cars which makes maintenance more expensive (having to rely on someone else)...this list goes on. Certainly most 16 year-old's in more car-reliant areas still push for their licence right-away, but those in more urban areas do seem less inclined, for the aforementioned reasons (cost primarily, but also access to public transit). Back in "the day", the push to get a licence seems to have been a thing for all teens, not just some.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 21, 2019, 05:08:43 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 21, 2019, 02:28:07 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2019, 09:09:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 02:13:04 AM
Aren't you just proving the existence of induced demand? If you double the capacity of a road, but it takes the same time to travel it, at a basic level, that means twice as many cars are using it as before. Why bother with the extra lanes if they're going to fill right up? Do all these extra trips have to be absorbed by the road system? The whole "mobility" metric seems odd to me, if the best a commuter can hope for is ten lanes all moving at 20mph.

Not induced demand, latent demand. The road expansion doesn't create the demand, it merely allows it to be realized whereas without the road it simply is not met.

At any rate, as for "Why bother with the extra lanes if they're going to fill right up?", this question makes about as much sense as asking "Why should I cook more food if it's just going to get eaten right away?". We don't build lanes with the idea they're going to sit there empty, we build them with the idea that people are going to use them. If they fill right up, that's good! That means people are using them. That's exactly what makes it worthwhile.

What's wrong with the roads drivers were already using? If the answer is, "they were local roads", what's going to stop drivers from using them again later on? Especially if the freeway ends up just as slow as before.

That seems like an apples-to-oranges comparison (with food being food, and driving being a sub-category of transportation), but I'll work past that. Obviously we aren't building extra lanes for no one. That would be a massive waste of time. But when we widen a road, who are we widening it for? The drivers detouring to other roads? The cars of the people that don't live in the area yet? Seems to me that we widen roads for cars, not people. That is not good planning.

Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2019, 09:09:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 02:13:04 AM
Not to change the subject, but isn't it easier to reduce congestion by reducing the number of cars?

In some cases. It depends on the specifics of the situation.

Also, road improvements and improvements for transit and other modes are not mutually exclusive. It is acceptable to do both.

I see my statement has put you on the fence (for once)! It's acceptable to do both, of course. In fact, I would encourage this, since drivers are often a major source of income for alternative transport methods (and not pissing them off is pretty important, politically). But up to a point, it becomes too expensive to do both. I assume most drivers would be OK with bus lanes if, each time one was built, another general purpose lane was built. But adding just one lane can be extremely expensive. Adding two?  :spin:

Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2019, 09:09:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 02:13:04 AM
I'm also not sure what you mean by "loss of mobility". You mean to those who stayed home during the closure? Or to those who chose not to drive? In either case, I would not equate the "driveability" of one's regular commute with a languishing quality of life standard.

I'm speaking more broadly than about the viaduct shutdown here. I'm also speaking more broadly than about people's regular commutes - I'm looking at mobility in terms of diversity of destinations available. Basically, how many different places can a person travel to within a certain timeframe. The higher this number is, the greater the number of employment opportunities are available to the person, the greater the number of destinations that can be used for social or leisure purposes, the easier people who's jobs involve making field visits are, etc.

It logically follows that anything which increases the number of destinations reachable improves a person's quality of life by increasing opportunities, while anything which decreases the number of destinations reachable negatively impacts a person's quality of life by taking opportunities away from them, possibly even taking away the reachability of destinations they had grown to like or depend on.

At what point does the literal cost of that freedom outweigh the benefits of all those destinations? Because if you're trying to imply that the car is the ultimate expression of freedom, of course I wouldn't disagree. But it's a very expensive display of that freedom. Being a 23-year-old college student, I know a lot of people who continually weigh this consideration. Personally, if I didn't have a car, I'd have an extra $600/month that I'd be able to spend on all sorts of things...rent on a more centrally-located apartment, for instance.

I also wouldn't say that, "more destinations = higher quality of life". Why not, "easy access to what a person wants = higher quality of life"?
My concern of adding lanes if for the suburb streets and freeways. Every freeway even in urban areas like downtown Seattle should have minimum of 14 lanes with Seattle's case probably more. There needs to be a way to do this without tearing down large urban fabric and other countries have found ways.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on February 21, 2019, 07:40:36 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on February 21, 2019, 12:33:10 AM
That flexible concrete will need to withstand more than 9.0 and then add in 6 minutes of shake and bake time.  If it is the last thing standing in Puget Sound after the Cascadia Subduction Zone breaks loose, then it will have proven itself.  Too bad the material is 90 times the cost of regular concrete and rebar.  I hope that production techniques take the same curve as they did for HDTV's so the price differential is reduced by an order of magnitude and then some.

Speaking of material returning to its shape, a story from the crashed alien craft in Roswell involved a small piece of metallic foil that when wadded up, would then return to its original flat shape.  Is the story true?  Who knows for sure?  I do like the idea of such a material though!

Rick
No it won't. Concrete isn't forever, but this is a great step forward. If it proves itself once, it'll start selling and costs will go down. Plenty of other earthquake areas around the world with freeways. I'm excited to see new alloy and reinforcement technology at play.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Duke87 on February 21, 2019, 08:32:45 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 21, 2019, 02:28:07 PM
What's wrong with the roads drivers were already using? If the answer is, "they were local roads", what's going to stop drivers from using them again later on? Especially if the freeway ends up just as slow as before.

The entire concept of latent demand is that those additional drivers weren't already using some other means of traveling in that corridor. They represent trips which previously were not happening because it wasn't feasible to make them. The new or wider road is creating new opportunities for travel that did not previously exist.

QuoteThat seems like an apples-to-oranges comparison (with food being food, and driving being a sub-category of transportation), but I'll work past that. Obviously we aren't building extra lanes for no one. That would be a massive waste of time. But when we widen a road, who are we widening it for? The drivers detouring to other roads? The cars of the people that don't live in the area yet? Seems to me that we widen roads for cars, not people. That is not good planning.

Eh, it's not really apples to oranges, since the same logic could just as easily be applied to any mode.
"Why bother expanding bus service if the buses are just going to fill up with more riders?"
"Why bother widening the sidewalk if it's just going to fill up with more pedestrians?"
No one says this about these modes, what makes car travel special that this argument applies selectively to it?

Same goes for the statement "we widen roads for cars, not people". By the same logic, you could say "we build tracks for trains, not people" or "we build bike lanes for bikes, not people".
Again, what makes car travel special that this argument applies selectively to it?


Quote from: jakeroot on February 21, 2019, 02:28:07 PM
I see my statement has put you on the fence (for once)!

Heh. I'm more in favor of "alternative" modes of transportation than the points I've been arguing here might imply.

But I do see this a bit differently from a lot of people in that I am not tolerant of the idea of encouraging the use of other modes by refusing to invest in good roads. We as a society can do better than reducing transportation to its lowest common denominator and should not be willing to settle for that. If faster or easier car travel makes transit less attractive in comparison, don't blame the roadway expansion for this. Make your transit service faster and more convenient so it can stay competitive. We build freeways for cars to go 70+ mph when they aren't congested, why do we settle for transit trunk lines that go 20-25 down streets when not stopped at red lights and 45-55 when grade separated? No reason the transit can't do 70+ too, if we design the infrastructure for it appropriately. But we don't, we cheap out on it.

QuoteI also wouldn't say that, "more destinations = higher quality of life". Why not, "easy access to what a person wants = higher quality of life"?

It is a lot easier to achieve the latter when you have the former.

Of course, it's also a lot easier to achieve the latter when you don't build square mile after square mile of residential monoculture development with all the houses on cul-de-sacs. You want to talk about bad planning...
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on February 21, 2019, 10:13:45 PM
Quote from: Alps on February 21, 2019, 07:40:36 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on February 21, 2019, 12:33:10 AM
That flexible concrete will need to withstand more than 9.0 and then add in 6 minutes of shake and bake time.  If it is the last thing standing in Puget Sound after the Cascadia Subduction Zone breaks loose, then it will have proven itself.  Too bad the material is 90 times the cost of regular concrete and rebar.  I hope that production techniques take the same curve as they did for HDTV's so the price differential is reduced by an order of magnitude and then some.

Speaking of material returning to its shape, a story from the crashed alien craft in Roswell involved a small piece of metallic foil that when wadded up, would then return to its original flat shape.  Is the story true?  Who knows for sure?  I do like the idea of such a material though!

Rick
No it won't. Concrete isn't forever, but this is a great step forward. If it proves itself once, it'll start selling and costs will go down. Plenty of other earthquake areas around the world with freeways. I'm excited to see new alloy and reinforcement technology at play.

California would be the perfect place for this new concrete.  Even the largest San Andreas quakes fall below the 9.0 threshold.  I still have memories of the collapsed section of SR 14 just north of I-5 from the 1971 quake.  A CHP officer died from that. 

Just north of the McCullough Bridge here is one called the Haynes Inlet Bridge.  It has a 200 year lifespan and no need for maintenance.  I have no idea what was done to make such a durable bridge but if one wanted to place bridges in areas exposed to maritime air, this would be a design to copy. 

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on February 22, 2019, 08:49:12 AM
Uh, wasn't the officer killed from the 94 Northridge quake?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on February 22, 2019, 11:20:05 AM
Quote from: Bickendan on February 22, 2019, 08:49:12 AM
Uh, wasn't the officer killed from the 94 Northridge quake?

Maybe there was one in '94 but I do remember a CHP death from 1971. 

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 22, 2019, 07:24:50 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 21, 2019, 08:32:45 PM
The entire concept of latent demand is that those additional drivers weren't already using some other means of traveling in that corridor. They represent trips which previously were not happening because it wasn't feasible to make them. The new or wider road is creating new opportunities for travel that did not previously exist.

You seem to be implying that the roadway is absorbing trips that were not occurring before. How can anyone be sure of this? How do we know the new drivers weren't previously taking another mode of transport?

Quote from: Duke87 on February 21, 2019, 08:32:45 PM
what makes car travel special that this argument applies selectively to it?

To be fair, it highly depends on the area in which the discussion is occurring. Any mode of transport will fill up if there's enough demand for it (there is "induced demand" for all modes of transportation, technically), but its really up to the cities to decide what mode of transport they want to create demand for. Places like Seattle have begun focusing on buses and light rail instead of road, because they'd rather create demand for that mode of transport. Why? Various reasons, the biggest usually being the high cost of road improvements relative to how much capacity would be needed for everyone to own and drive a car (efficiently). That's not the case in every city, especially in those with low land costs.

There are other issues, too: driving is a fairly dangerous activity, particularly when someone is 'under the influence' of a narcotic (often the case in cities, when out late). The WMATA metro has somehow proven that you can be killed riding the subway, but public transit is overall much safer.

EDIT: to answer your question more directly, I think "induced demand" is often correlated with roads and vehicles, because those who tout widening and freeway expansion often cite "congestion relief" as a reason for the widening, despite the fact that congestion relief, in and of itself, rarely occurs, at least not long term. The same thing occurs on trains and buses, of course (those relief buses will eventually fill up), but then the cost factors come into play, which I addressed above.

Quote from: Duke87 on February 21, 2019, 08:32:45 PM
Heh. I'm more in favor of "alternative" modes of transportation than the points I've been arguing here might imply.

But I do see this a bit differently from a lot of people in that I am not tolerant of the idea of encouraging the use of other modes by refusing to invest in good roads. We as a society can do better than reducing transportation to its lowest common denominator and should not be willing to settle for that. If faster or easier car travel makes transit less attractive in comparison, don't blame the roadway expansion for this. Make your transit service faster and more convenient so it can stay competitive. We build freeways for cars to go 70+ mph when they aren't congested, why do we settle for transit trunk lines that go 20-25 down streets when not stopped at red lights and 45-55 when grade separated? No reason the transit can't do 70+ too, if we design the infrastructure for it appropriately. But we don't, we cheap out on it.

There's a high cost in "checking all the boxes". Cities and states that somehow have the money to invest in both mega-huge transit networks and roadway capacity improvements are certainly hard to come by, if they exist at all. Given that most places don't have the luxury to let people decide between 70mph freeways and 70mph trains, they have to invest where they think they'll get their money's worth. In dense places with expensive land, you're probably going to see more transit. Not necessarily super-fast transit, but certainly more of it than new lanes. In areas with cheap land and low density, you'll probably see more road widening projects. Of course, these situations can occur within the same metro area, but both will be the result of long-term budgetary decisions.

I would like to point out that light rail and metro trains can typically achieve their top speeds 24/7, unlike roads, which can be affected by an insane number of factors, not to mention, the drivers themselves!

Quote from: Duke87 on February 21, 2019, 08:32:45 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 21, 2019, 02:28:07 PM
I also wouldn't say that, "more destinations = higher quality of life". Why not, "easy access to what a person wants = higher quality of life"?

It is a lot easier to achieve the latter when you have the former.

Of course, it's also a lot easier to achieve the latter when you don't build square mile after square mile of residential monoculture development with all the houses on cul-de-sacs. You want to talk about bad planning...

I would say that Google has largely taken the place of wandering around looking for something, but I would agree that tract housing is not exactly making wandering easier, should someone want to do that (which they should, IMO, as its part of what makes the city a wonderful place).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 22, 2019, 07:38:47 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 22, 2019, 07:24:50 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 21, 2019, 08:32:45 PM
The entire concept of latent demand is that those additional drivers weren't already using some other means of traveling in that corridor. They represent trips which previously were not happening because it wasn't feasible to make them. The new or wider road is creating new opportunities for travel that did not previously exist.

You seem to be implying that the roadway is absorbing trips that were not occurring before. How can anyone be sure of this? How do we know the new drivers weren't previously taking another mode of transport?

Quote from: Duke87 on February 21, 2019, 08:32:45 PM
what makes car travel special that this argument applies selectively to it?

To be fair, it highly depends on the area in which the discussion is occurring. Any mode of transport will fill up if there's enough demand for it, but its really up to the cities to decide what mode of transport they want to create demand for. Places like Seattle have begun focusing on buses and light rail instead of road, because they'd rather create demand for that mode of transport. Why? Various reasons, the biggest usually being the high cost of road improvements relative to how much capacity would be needed for everyone to own and drive a car (efficiently). That's not the case in every city, especially in those with low land costs.

There are other issues, too: driving is a fairly dangerous activity, particularly when someone is 'under the influence' of a narcotic (often the case in cities, when out late). The WMATA metro has somehow proven that you can be killed riding the subway, but public transit is overall much safer.

Quote from: Duke87 on February 21, 2019, 08:32:45 PM
Heh. I'm more in favor of "alternative" modes of transportation than the points I've been arguing here might imply.

But I do see this a bit differently from a lot of people in that I am not tolerant of the idea of encouraging the use of other modes by refusing to invest in good roads. We as a society can do better than reducing transportation to its lowest common denominator and should not be willing to settle for that. If faster or easier car travel makes transit less attractive in comparison, don't blame the roadway expansion for this. Make your transit service faster and more convenient so it can stay competitive. We build freeways for cars to go 70+ mph when they aren't congested, why do we settle for transit trunk lines that go 20-25 down streets when not stopped at red lights and 45-55 when grade separated? No reason the transit can't do 70+ too, if we design the infrastructure for it appropriately. But we don't, we cheap out on it.

There's a high cost in "checking all the boxes". Cities and states that somehow have the money to invest in both mega-huge transit networks and roadway capacity improvements are certainly hard to come by, if they exist at all. Given that most places don't have the luxury to let people decide between 70mph freeways and 70mph trains, they have to invest where they think they'll get their money's worth. In dense places with expensive land, you're probably going to see more transit. Not necessarily super-fast transit, but certainly more of it than new lanes. In areas with cheap land and low density, you'll probably see more road widening projects. Of course, these situations can occur within the same metro area, but both will be the result of long-term budgetary decisions.

I would like to point out that light rail and metro trains can typically achieve their top speeds 24/7, unlike roads, which can be affected by an insane number of factors, not to mention, the drivers themselves!

Quote from: Duke87 on February 21, 2019, 08:32:45 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 21, 2019, 02:28:07 PM
I also wouldn't say that, "more destinations = higher quality of life". Why not, "easy access to what a person wants = higher quality of life"?

It is a lot easier to achieve the latter when you have the former.

Of course, it's also a lot easier to achieve the latter when you don't build square mile after square mile of residential monoculture development with all the houses on cul-de-sacs. You want to talk about bad planning...

I would say that Google has largely taken the place of wandering around looking for something, but I would agree that tract housing is not exactly making wandering easier, should someone want to do that (which they should, IMO, as its part of what makes the city a wonderful place).
"You seem to be implying that the roadway is absorbing trips that were not occurring before. How can anyone be sure of this? How do we know the new drivers weren't previously taking another mode of transport?"

https://www.bts.gov/content/commute-mode-share-2015

I think this shows it is more likely the roadway is absorbing other existing drivers and NOT people switching from transit. If anyone does switch from transit: that is an example of good government providing options for people to make their decision.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 22, 2019, 07:59:03 PM
(please consolidate your quote a bit...makes it easier to see what you're responding to)

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 22, 2019, 07:38:47 PM
"You seem to be implying that the roadway is absorbing trips that were not occurring before. How can anyone be sure of this? How do we know the new drivers weren't previously taking another mode of transport?"

https://www.bts.gov/content/commute-mode-share-2015

I think this shows it is more likely the roadway is absorbing other existing drivers and NOT people switching from transit. If anyone does switch from transit: that is an example of good government providing options for people to make their decision.

I don't know what you're trying to prove with that table. I do know those percentages vary substantially from city to city.

Seattle, which continues to invest heavily in transit, is (surprise, surprise) seeing massive increase in transit ridership...you could say they've "induced demand" for transit:

https://seattle.curbed.com/2018/2/28/17060470/seattle-transit-ridership-crowding-service

Though the entire city of Seattle is closer to 50% drive-alone rate, downtown Seattle is only 25% (due to the confluence of many transit networks in the area).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2019, 12:57:08 AM
That's the city. There is more traffic than just traffic originating in the city. Add up traffic counts from roads and freeways and it comes to a hefty amount. More than likely a new person using a road they didn't came from another road vs. another mode of transit.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 23, 2019, 02:10:05 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2019, 12:57:08 AM
That's the city. There is more traffic than just traffic originating in the city. Add up traffic counts from roads and freeways and it comes to a hefty amount. More than likely a new person using a road they didn't came from another road vs. another mode of transit.

Huh? That's data for everyone that works in Seattle, not lives in Seattle: https://commuteseattle.com/modesplit-2017/
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2019, 02:24:27 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 23, 2019, 02:10:05 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2019, 12:57:08 AM
That's the city. There is more traffic than just traffic originating in the city. Add up traffic counts from roads and freeways and it comes to a hefty amount. More than likely a new person using a road they didn't came from another road vs. another mode of transit.

Huh? That's data for everyone that works in Seattle, not lives in Seattle: https://commuteseattle.com/modesplit-2017/
Traffic that uses a street includes more people than those that just work in a certain. That's what we're talking about. Why would we only measure people that work in a certain area to gauge the amount of traffic in that area?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 23, 2019, 02:17:58 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2019, 02:24:27 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 23, 2019, 02:10:05 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 23, 2019, 12:57:08 AM
That's the city. There is more traffic than just traffic originating in the city. Add up traffic counts from roads and freeways and it comes to a hefty amount. More than likely a new person using a road they didn't came from another road vs. another mode of transit.

Huh? That's data for everyone that works in Seattle, not lives in Seattle: https://commuteseattle.com/modesplit-2017/

Traffic that uses a street includes more people than those that just work in a certain. That's what we're talking about. Why would we only measure people that work in a certain area to gauge the amount of traffic in that area?

We don't study the movements of people who don't commute. They're not the one's putting a strain on our transport network. It's the day-in-day-out 9-5 commuters who push our networks to the max.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on February 23, 2019, 06:13:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 23, 2019, 02:17:58 PM

We don't study the movements of people who don't commute. They're not the one's putting a strain on our transport network. It's the day-in-day-out 9-5 commuters who push our networks to the max.

It is in breaking the 9 to 5 up that traffic is allowed to flow.  During the 1984 Olympics, LA worked with those who employed large amounts of workers to spread out the demand.  It succeeded!  If only we could so such everywhere where peak demand can overwhelm the ground transportation networks.

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 23, 2019, 11:39:16 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on February 23, 2019, 06:13:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 23, 2019, 02:17:58 PM
We don't study the movements of people who don't commute. They're not the one's putting a strain on our transport network. It's the day-in-day-out 9-5 commuters who push our networks to the max.

It is in breaking the 9 to 5 up that traffic is allowed to flow.  During the 1984 Olympics, LA worked with those who employed large amounts of workers to spread out the demand.  It succeeded!  If only we could so such everywhere where peak demand can overwhelm the ground transportation networks.

I think there's a practical limit, in the sense that people generally sleep between 11-5. Plus, there's only so many options for staggered shifts amongst white-collar workers. There's also an HR issue if we require people to constantly change schedules to "be fair".

I think tele-commuting is probably the better option for reducing our network strains, but there's something to be said about in-person collaboration. Probably the reason you don't see too many staggered shifts. Better to have people working roughly the same hours so that company-to-company relations remain in good standing.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on February 24, 2019, 05:57:37 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 12:42:28 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 20, 2019, 12:08:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 19, 2019, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 19, 2019, 03:08:33 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 18, 2019, 11:08:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on February 18, 2019, 09:44:28 PM
If the Big Dig wasn't enough; I'm hoping once the waterfront and boulevard portion opens, it can show cities that investments like this, though costly and prone to overruns/missed deadlines, are worth it in the end.

I think we've long come to the conclusion that the whole tunnel wasn't needed. Hopefully cities do learn that highway removal is easy and painless once you cut through all the psuedoscience.

I completely disagree.

I can't really think of a freeway removal that had a permanent, noticeable effect on traffic. Looking at San Francisco, I don't think rebuilding the Embarcadero Fwy would relieve any issues, and Portland's Harbor Drive...I don't even know what that did for traffic to begin with.

Seattle's Hwy 99 is part of a larger important corridor than either of those freeway removals, but that's mostly because of the man-made infrastructure preceding it. Aurora could have easily been converted to at-grade status in South Lake Union, perhaps designed to lead directly into downtown one-way streets. In the south end, it should remain roughly as-is with all the railway crossings, but it could have been tied directly into Alaskan Way, which is being designed to lead into Western & Elliott, two important one-way streets.

meaningless, none of those removals were through routes, they were all spurs.  come back with a through route removal not affecting anything.

As far as I know, there are no modern examples of "through" freeways being removed in the US, without being replaced by something else. The best parallel for Seattle would be Portland's Harbor Drive, which was replaced by I-5. It could have been possible, back in the 1970s, to tear down the Alaskan Way Viaduct, as it was no longer the *major* through route, with I-5 being built on the other side of downtown. Yes, there were major roads that led to the viaduct, but those roads led to downtown streets for decades before the viaduct.

Also the fairly recent reroutes of I-40 in Oklahoma City, OK, I-30 in downtown Fort Worth, TX, I-190 in Providence, RI, etc.  They took threadbare, obsolete old freeways and made them light-years better.

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on February 24, 2019, 06:27:47 AM
Quote from: Bruce on February 20, 2019, 11:48:21 PM
I went around the three main demolition sites yesterday to snag some pictures. Things looked pretty active at all three, though the equipment was mostly idle at two of them.

North end

The view from 1st Avenue and Battery Street at the north end of the viaduct:

(https://i.imgur.com/Q4spHZF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/6jghxZN.jpg)

I would have loved to have been around when this was first being built.

Quote
Columbia Street ramp

Note the office of our favorite new source off to the left:

(https://i.imgur.com/6SD6Ms0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QMDL3Lj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lcmjqAD.jpg)

That is an interesting perspective.  When it was first built, that was likely regarded as a 'waste' view.

Quote
Dearborn Ramp

The new northbound offramp from SR 99 to Dearborn Street also opened yesterday, with a shoulder/bus lane. The ramp is designed to withstand a major earthquake with shape-memory alloy bars and flexible concrete (more details here (https://www.seattlepi.com/viaducttotunnel/article/South-Dearborn-SR-99-off-ramp-open-earthquake-13628673.php)).

(https://i.imgur.com/cXDFO0x.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/EgmrWIr.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/uVlD5RA.jpg)

Definitely making much more sense once all of the old stuff is out of the way.  Without checking that link, that shoulder is also available for use by 'breakdowns', correct?

Thanx for the images.

:nod:

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 24, 2019, 05:45:06 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 24, 2019, 05:57:37 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 12:42:28 PM
As far as I know, there are no modern examples of "through" freeways being removed in the US, without being replaced by something else. The best parallel for Seattle would be Portland's Harbor Drive, which was replaced by I-5. It could have been possible, back in the 1970s, to tear down the Alaskan Way Viaduct, as it was no longer the *major* through route, with I-5 being built on the other side of downtown. Yes, there were major roads that led to the viaduct, but those roads led to downtown streets for decades before the viaduct.

Also the fairly recent reroutes of I-40 in Oklahoma City, OK, I-30 in downtown Fort Worth, TX, I-195 in Providence, RI, etc.  They took threadbare, obsolete old freeways and made them light-years better.

Ahh yes, indeed. I only got to see the original I-40 of those three, but man was I happy to see that thing go. What an eye-sore.

Of course, if these re-routed freeways require the expropriation of dozens or hundreds of homes, something more drastic than simply "moving" the freeway may be required.

Quote from: mgk920 on February 24, 2019, 06:27:47 AM
Definitely making much more sense once all of the old stuff is out of the way.  Without checking that link, that shoulder is also available for use by 'breakdowns', correct?

I believe using the term "shoulder" to describe the lane is probably not a wise call on WSDOT's part. It really should be marked as a bus lane, since it probably would permit emergency stops as-is.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on February 24, 2019, 07:00:06 PM
If you have a genuine emergency, do whatever you must to in order to preserve life and limb.  After that you might have to explain yourself but at least you will be around to do so!

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on February 24, 2019, 07:36:06 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on February 24, 2019, 07:00:06 PM
If you have a genuine emergency, do whatever you must to in order to preserve life and limb.  After that you might have to explain yourself but at least you will be around to do so!

Absolutely, though this is an off-ramp, which usually don't have large shoulders anyway (if there's one at all).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on March 03, 2019, 11:07:22 PM
The Columbia Street ramp is pretty much gone.

https://twitter.com/dongho_chang/status/1102418889944621058
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on March 04, 2019, 01:37:27 AM
That seems like it was quick! Though it has already been a few weeks since closure.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on March 24, 2019, 09:30:45 PM
Finally stopped by the demolition today for the first time since it started.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7897/32518849737_bcccd8c2b8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RxzB64)

Part of the viaduct by the Pike Place Market is made up of steel support as it crosses the railroad tracks just north of the Great Northern Tunnel, so it appears they want to pick it up and off rather than trying to close off the railroad or put up some barrier between.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7802/32518870697_5075a83808_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RxzHjr)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on March 25, 2019, 02:08:15 PM
Does anyone know what has become of the Alaskan Way Viaduct's US 99 sign? I'd hate to see it reduced to scrap metal.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: silverback1065 on March 25, 2019, 10:02:46 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 25, 2019, 02:08:15 PM
Does anyone know what has become of the Alaskan Way Viaduct's US 99 sign? I'd hate to see it reduced to scrap metal.

either the contractor has it, the DOT has it, or they trashed it. 
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on March 25, 2019, 11:36:16 PM
The Marion Street Bridge, which connects to the ferry terminal, will close over the weekend while the viaduct section above is removed. A temporary shuttele bus will run from the terminal to 1st Avenue. http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/library/advisories-and-updates/marion-street-pedestrian-bridge-will-close-march-30-31
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on March 27, 2019, 11:50:43 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 25, 2019, 02:08:15 PM
Does anyone know what has become of the Alaskan Way Viaduct's US 99 sign? I'd hate to see it reduced to scrap metal.

I think I read the contractor is keeping it in his office.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on March 28, 2019, 09:53:29 AM
Even though I'm not a native, seeing the viaduct getting torn down is both a happy and sad time for me. Happy because that eyesore divided the waterfront from the rest of downtown, and sad because of its sentimental value to the very few who had to drive on it for their daily commutes.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on April 11, 2019, 02:35:12 AM
A few shots last week at Columbia Street.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Alaskan_Way_Viaduct_demolition_at_Columbia_Street%2C_April_2019_-_01.jpg/1280px-Alaskan_Way_Viaduct_demolition_at_Columbia_Street%2C_April_2019_-_01.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Alaskan_Way_Viaduct_demolition_at_Columbia_Street%2C_April_2019_-_02.jpg/1280px-Alaskan_Way_Viaduct_demolition_at_Columbia_Street%2C_April_2019_-_02.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Alaskan_Way_Viaduct_demolition_at_Columbia_Street%2C_April_2019_-_03.jpg/1280px-Alaskan_Way_Viaduct_demolition_at_Columbia_Street%2C_April_2019_-_03.jpg)

And from 76 stories above:

(https://i.imgur.com/MfsmVJ3.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on April 12, 2019, 09:16:40 PM
The sign bridge at Victor Steinbrueck Park has been removed. https://twitter.com/BerthaDigsSR99/status/1116861058340118528
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on April 12, 2019, 09:24:20 PM
#byeaduct? fuck oooffff
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: rte66man on April 14, 2019, 09:07:48 AM
I know I'm stating the obvious to those who are from the area, but it didn't really hit me how much the Viaduct acted as a de facto wall between the waterfront and the rest of Seattle.  Good riddance to it.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on April 14, 2019, 03:53:16 PM
Quote from: rte66man on April 14, 2019, 09:07:48 AM
I know I'm stating the obvious to those who are from the area, but it didn't really hit me how much the Viaduct acted as a de facto wall between the waterfront and the rest of Seattle.  Good riddance to it.

The worst part is that, to drivers, it's not at all obvious. It's only on-foot that it becomes clear. Perhaps this is why it was so hard to sell a non-rebuild alternative way-back-when. Drivers didn't really understand the whole psychological (and physical) effect that the viaduct played on downtown workers and visitors; all they see is a road, between A & B.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on April 14, 2019, 06:27:08 PM
Quote from: rte66man on April 14, 2019, 09:07:48 AM
I know I'm stating the obvious to those who are from the area, but it didn't really hit me how much the Viaduct acted as a de facto wall between the waterfront and the rest of Seattle.  Good riddance to it.

And then there's I-5 creating a wall between downtown and Capitol/First Hills. That one will take longer to repair, mostly with lids. "Downtown" once stretched all the way up to Boren!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on April 16, 2019, 12:04:39 PM
Downtown is already starting to look different, now that more and more of the viaduct is being erased.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on April 16, 2019, 02:49:18 PM
Quote from: Henry on April 16, 2019, 12:04:39 PM
Downtown is already starting to look different, now that more and more of the viaduct is being erased.

The light levels seem to be the most jarring difference. At least to me. The viaduct never cast a shadow on the piers, but it was always dark beneath it, and it cast near-permanent shadows on the buildings to the east. With those two things now pretty well lit, it really makes the area immediately more enjoyable.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on April 16, 2019, 05:17:07 PM
Are commuters mainly using the new tunnel as a way to bypass downtown, while local traffic sticks to the surface streets?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on April 16, 2019, 08:11:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 16, 2019, 05:17:07 PM
Are commuters mainly using the new tunnel as a way to bypass downtown, while local traffic sticks to the surface streets?

The new tunnel sees a few backups during rush hour, but is otherwise fairly empty. 1st Avenue is a total mess, so it looks like it's taking the brunt of the demand (and it's even worse during Mariners games).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on April 16, 2019, 08:52:05 PM
Quote from: Bruce on April 16, 2019, 08:11:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 16, 2019, 05:17:07 PM
Are commuters mainly using the new tunnel as a way to bypass downtown, while local traffic sticks to the surface streets?

The new tunnel sees a few backups during rush hour, but is otherwise fairly empty. 1st Avenue is a total mess, so it looks like it's taking the brunt of the demand (and it's even worse during Mariners games).
So this tunnel is the same length that the Viaduct was? It also was not tolled and had more access points along its route through downtown? If that is the case I can understand the drop in traffic though if it is more dramatic I would guess that shows the Viaduct wasn't really used as a downtown bypass but rather a distributor of traffic. I hate to say it, but if that is the case then as much as I love tunnels, one could make an argument the tunnel wasn't worth it. I certainly am not going to say that as, again I love tunnels, and I think it's a good idea to have more infrastructure than less for various reasons.

I know this a pipe dream, especially in this current political climate, but it would be cool to see the tunnel expanded further north to connect with I-5 at some point to offer a tolled alternative. This would be further complimented with an extension of I-90 to connect to SR-99. These two projects could be built with a joint project to build light-rail along SR-99 going north. I bet that would bring a considerable uptick in ADTs in the existing tunnel.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on April 16, 2019, 09:22:10 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 16, 2019, 08:52:05 PM
Quote from: Bruce on April 16, 2019, 08:11:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 16, 2019, 05:17:07 PM
Are commuters mainly using the new tunnel as a way to bypass downtown, while local traffic sticks to the surface streets?

The new tunnel sees a few backups during rush hour, but is otherwise fairly empty. 1st Avenue is a total mess, so it looks like it's taking the brunt of the demand (and it's even worse during Mariners games).
So this tunnel is the same length that the Viaduct was? It also was not tolled and had more access points along its route through downtown? If that is the case I can understand the drop in traffic though if it is more dramatic I would guess that shows the Viaduct wasn't really used as a downtown bypass but rather a distributor of traffic. I hate to say it, but if that is the case then as much as I love tunnels, one could make an argument the tunnel wasn't worth it. I certainly am not going to say that as, again I love tunnels, and I think it's a good idea to have more infrastructure than less for various reasons.

I know this a pipe dream, especially in this current political climate, but it would be cool to see the tunnel expanded further north to connect with I-5 at some point to offer a tolled alternative. This would be further complimented with an extension of I-90 to connect to SR-99. These two projects could be built with a joint project to build light-rail along SR-99 going north. I bet that would bring a considerable uptick in ADTs in the existing tunnel.

The tunnel does not have downtown exits, hence why it's 99% useless for commuter's needs. The north portal in SLU is already a mess due to the backups from Mercer and Denny, while the south portal is a hard-to-navigate mess thanks to the waterfront and ferry terminal construction.

The tunnel would have to be extended all the way up to Northgate to provide a realistic alternative to I-5, at which point it would be more expensive than the border wall.

I do see light rail happening on Aurora (SR 99) someday, but it would require an elevated line in the median, or a road diet to fit trenches and at-grade stations. The street is unsafe and still lacks sidewalks in some areas (especially around the cemetery...did I mention it cuts through a cemetery?), which should be addressed first.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on April 16, 2019, 09:34:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on April 16, 2019, 09:22:10 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 16, 2019, 08:52:05 PM
Quote from: Bruce on April 16, 2019, 08:11:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 16, 2019, 05:17:07 PM
Are commuters mainly using the new tunnel as a way to bypass downtown, while local traffic sticks to the surface streets?

The new tunnel sees a few backups during rush hour, but is otherwise fairly empty. 1st Avenue is a total mess, so it looks like it's taking the brunt of the demand (and it's even worse during Mariners games).
So this tunnel is the same length that the Viaduct was? It also was not tolled and had more access points along its route through downtown? If that is the case I can understand the drop in traffic though if it is more dramatic I would guess that shows the Viaduct wasn't really used as a downtown bypass but rather a distributor of traffic. I hate to say it, but if that is the case then as much as I love tunnels, one could make an argument the tunnel wasn't worth it. I certainly am not going to say that as, again I love tunnels, and I think it's a good idea to have more infrastructure than less for various reasons.

I know this a pipe dream, especially in this current political climate, but it would be cool to see the tunnel expanded further north to connect with I-5 at some point to offer a tolled alternative. This would be further complimented with an extension of I-90 to connect to SR-99. These two projects could be built with a joint project to build light-rail along SR-99 going north. I bet that would bring a considerable uptick in ADTs in the existing tunnel.

The tunnel does not have downtown exits, hence why it's 99% useless for commuter's needs. The north portal in SLU is already a mess due to the backups from Mercer and Denny, while the south portal is a hard-to-navigate mess thanks to the waterfront and ferry terminal construction.

The tunnel would have to be extended all the way up to Northgate to provide a realistic alternative to I-5, at which point it would be more expensive than the border wall.

I do see light rail happening on Aurora (SR 99) someday, but it would require an elevated line in the median, or a road diet to fit trenches and at-grade stations. The street is unsafe and still lacks sidewalks in some areas (especially around the cemetery...did I mention it cuts through a cemetery?), which should be addressed first.
I would like to see an elevated transit line which would facilitate an addition of dedicated protected bike lanes. I am not familiar with Seattle however so I am not sure if residents would be supportive of an elevated system.

I hold onto hope someday someone finds a real innovation in tunnel building methods to make it actually viable for cities to consider. It would likely need to be a mix of infrastructure reform laws and new methods which make building infrastructure cheaper. I am always fascinated by endeavors to use a new material in roadway surfaces that could offer a real alternative to asphalt or concrete which would be much cheaper. It seems like every time one is proposed there are just too many major issues with it. Sadly, for the foreseeable future, I don't see freeway tunnels happening in the U.S.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on April 22, 2019, 03:31:40 PM
According to The Times (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/tearing-down-the-alaskan-way-viaduct-is-taking-longer-than-once-thought/), viaduct demolition is trending behind schedule and might not be fully complete until August (with the main sections coming down by late June instead of the original June 1 target).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on April 22, 2019, 05:50:00 PM
Quote from: Bruce on April 22, 2019, 03:31:40 PM
According to The Times (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/tearing-down-the-alaskan-way-viaduct-is-taking-longer-than-once-thought/), viaduct demolition is trending behind schedule and might not be fully complete until August (with the main sections coming down by late June instead of the original June 1 target).

I hope they aren't too worried about it keeping people away. The demolition seem to be quite the spectacle.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 08, 2019, 01:39:51 AM
Progress shot at Seneca Street:

(https://i.imgur.com/Qe63ioL.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: KEK Inc. on May 08, 2019, 12:31:18 PM
Quote from: Bruce on April 16, 2019, 09:22:10 PM
I do see light rail happening on Aurora (SR 99) someday, but it would require an elevated line in the median, or a road diet to fit trenches and at-grade stations. The street is unsafe and still lacks sidewalks in some areas (especially around the cemetery...did I mention it cuts through a cemetery?), which should be addressed first.

I live in Greenlake/Wallingford/Fremont -- not too far from Aurora, so I'd appreciate a light rail line on Aurora.  However, I think the plan is to have it run on 15th Ave NW towards Ballard as a spur.   Anything north of Greenlake would be redundant of the Everett line that will primarily follow the I-5 corridor. 

Logistically, installing light rail on the GWM (aka Aurora) Bridge would be a nightmare.   I do think the Aurora Bridge should have 5 lanes with a center reversible lane depending on traffic flow (and maybe the center lane can be a dead lane on non-peak times). 
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 08, 2019, 03:37:08 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on May 08, 2019, 12:31:18 PM
Quote from: Bruce on April 16, 2019, 09:22:10 PM
I do see light rail happening on Aurora (SR 99) someday, but it would require an elevated line in the median, or a road diet to fit trenches and at-grade stations. The street is unsafe and still lacks sidewalks in some areas (especially around the cemetery...did I mention it cuts through a cemetery?), which should be addressed first.

I live in Greenlake/Wallingford/Fremont -- not too far from Aurora, so I'd appreciate a light rail line on Aurora.  However, I think the plan is to have it run on 15th Ave NW towards Ballard as a spur.   Anything north of Greenlake would be redundant of the Everett line that will primarily follow the I-5 corridor. 

Logistically, installing light rail on the GWM (aka Aurora) Bridge would be a nightmare.   I do think the Aurora Bridge should have 5 lanes with a center reversible lane depending on traffic flow (and maybe the center lane can be a dead lane on non-peak times). 

Yes, the Ballard Line (opening in 2035) will use 15th (or another nearby street), with a crossing of the Ship Canal that is either a tunnel, a fixed high bridge, or a movable bridge.

The Aurora Line would have to be funded by the city in a separate measure, or be part of the inevitable ST4 in 2024 or sometime later. It wouldn't be too redundant due to the time involved in getting east-west on transit and would replace the busiest bus route in the region, so it would be quite valuable.

Ideally, an Aurora light rail line would swing west into central Fremont and use an underground crossing, like Option D in the early Ballard concepts.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSEoHszC.png&hash=cfceb15057e2a98d9a7e5c3df461f9dabc0b7936)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 08, 2019, 04:13:23 PM
I love option D, as someone who wants nothing to do with movable bridges. But I worry about long-term growth of those stations. Will there be upzoning in Upper Queen Anne and Fremont? Focusing on improving transit in under-served communities seems more important than connecting existing neighborhoods that already have excellent bus-reliant transit options.

I see this city struggling with upzoning constantly, so my preference has been shifting to things like Options A or B (with a tunnel or high bridge), where there's room for growth.

Also, do my eyes deceive me? Are options C and E mostly at-grade?

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2F99%2F9984e215e188ff9a291a7cdcef5febf5ed0478406b1eb66cbb7628207e842462.jpg&hash=215a82205e684ff4a2e6003ea644b80c56afa5e0)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 08, 2019, 06:01:59 PM
The options were from the 2014 pre-ballot analysis, and ultimately we're getting a mix of Options A and B, with elevated along 15th Avenue (cutting west to serve more of Interbay) and some sort of crossing.

There would have been little chance of Queen Anne upzoning the area around its station, even with pressure from the rest of the city. They are very, very stubborn about any kind of development, let alone the scale needed to support a subway station. It was just about what was convenient, as the Westlake corridor (between Mercer and the ship canal) has the population/job density to support rail, but not the topography.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on May 09, 2019, 04:49:06 PM
I like the idea of an Aurora transit improvement, but unless it is grade separated (i.e. Elevated or subway), it better be at least 1 block west or east of the roadway.  I like the idea of a Monorail straddling 99, all the way up, then splitting to follow above the old Interurban ROW to Everett Mall (and maybe continuing all the way to downtown Everett.  There isn't anything to say that transit has to put all of its eggs in one modal basket.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 09, 2019, 05:18:30 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on May 09, 2019, 04:49:06 PM
There isn't anything to say that transit has to put all of its eggs in one modal basket.

As long as the benefit of the alternative doesn't outweigh the potential negatives. In terms of light rail vs monorail, this probably comes down to maintenance, versatility, etc. As long as Sound Transit is unwilling to construct open-gangway light rail vehicles because it harms versatility, they're probably not willing to invest in an entirely different technology. Never mind one that doesn't work on the current system.

As a comparison, Vancouver's Canada Line (SkyTrain) uses electric motors for power, rather than linear induction. As such, those trains will never work on the Expo or Millennium lines (and vice-versa). I don't know exactly why this decision was made, but I know the alignment of the Canada Line is such that extension would be unlikely to interfere with other lines, so it can use its own tech. Assuming the electric motor propulsion system was cheaper, this made the choice even easier to make.

I guess a rough comparison would be growing the monorail network north, under the Queen Anne Hill and towards Fremont, with extensions to UW or Ballard, or somewhere else. Its alignment wouldn't really require any non-stop transfers between those lines and the other Link lines, so it could use a different technology.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 14, 2019, 06:03:08 PM
The tunnel is now carrying 80K vehicles on some weekdays, which matches the average of the viaduct in its final years. Nowhere near the 100K+ before the start of the project in 2011.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/traffic-in-new-highway-99-tunnel-nearly-matches-last-years-viaduct-use/
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on May 14, 2019, 11:06:51 PM
Tolling to begin in late summer? Ok, time to plan my trip up to Seattle before then.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 15, 2019, 12:35:42 AM
Quote from: Bickendan on May 14, 2019, 11:06:51 PM
Tolling to begin in late summer? Ok, time to plan my trip up to Seattle before then.

You can pay by plate for $2 per use. No way to pay more than $4.25 (max charge is $2.25). Fluctuations in gas prices will probably have a bigger effect on your budget! It may actually be wise to wait a while, given current gas prices anyway.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 16, 2019, 12:40:47 AM
An aerial shot that was posted by a random Twitter user.

(https://i.imgur.com/17RG8hw.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on May 16, 2019, 06:16:52 AM
Quick! Someone film a sequel to Speed and jump an articulated trolley bus!!!
(It's Hollywood; they'll handwave it)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Sub-Urbanite on May 16, 2019, 01:40:08 PM
By god it does look like a totally different city
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 16, 2019, 02:57:43 PM
Great photos from WSDOT from the ground...the changes are especially noticeable down there:

https://twitter.com/ChrisDaniels5/status/1128837268284760064
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: rte66man on May 22, 2019, 09:05:02 PM
So where are they disposing of all that steel?  I'm assuming the concrete is being crushed and recycled.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 22, 2019, 09:34:56 PM
Quote from: rte66man on May 22, 2019, 09:05:02 PM
So where are they disposing of all that steel?  I'm assuming the concrete is being crushed and recycled.

Concrete is going to fill the closed Battery Street Tunnel. Not sure about the steel.

https://twitter.com/Q13FOX/status/1129062934775291904
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on May 22, 2019, 09:58:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 22, 2019, 09:34:56 PM
Quote from: rte66man on May 22, 2019, 09:05:02 PM
So where are they disposing of all that steel?  I'm assuming the concrete is being crushed and recycled.
Concrete is going to fill the closed Battery Street Tunnel. Not sure about the steel.

That looks like aggregate base material.  Filling the whole invert with concrete would be super-expensive.  Earthen fill could handle most of the backfilling necessary.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MNHighwayMan on May 22, 2019, 10:41:53 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 22, 2019, 09:58:32 PM
That looks like aggregate base material.  Filling the whole invert with concrete would be super-expensive.  Earthen fill could handle most of the backfilling necessary.

They're filling the tunnel with the rubble concrete from the viaduct.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on May 22, 2019, 11:12:45 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on May 22, 2019, 10:41:53 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 22, 2019, 09:58:32 PM
That looks like aggregate base material.  Filling the whole invert with concrete would be super-expensive.  Earthen fill could handle most of the backfilling necessary.
They're filling the tunnel with the rubble concrete from the viaduct.

Oh OK ... rubblized concrete would look somewhat like aggregate base material.

That is putting it to good use!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on May 22, 2019, 11:49:50 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on May 22, 2019, 10:41:53 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 22, 2019, 09:58:32 PM
That looks like aggregate base material.  Filling the whole invert with concrete would be super-expensive.  Earthen fill could handle most of the backfilling necessary.

They're filling the tunnel with the rubble concrete from the viaduct.
And then earth to complete the fill, I imagine.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on May 23, 2019, 12:02:05 AM
Quote from: Alps on May 22, 2019, 11:49:50 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on May 22, 2019, 10:41:53 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 22, 2019, 09:58:32 PM
That looks like aggregate base material.  Filling the whole invert with concrete would be super-expensive.  Earthen fill could handle most of the backfilling necessary.
They're filling the tunnel with the rubble concrete from the viaduct.
And then earth to complete the fill, I imagine.

Probably, depending on how much concrete there is in the viaduct.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 23, 2019, 12:05:49 AM
Here's an image from WSDOT's website:

(https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Media/Default/-NewDocuments/demolition/Battery/2018_1203_BST_fill_web.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on May 23, 2019, 12:49:01 AM
4,000 Ready Mix truck loads of concrete?  Wow... that will be expensive. 

About 10 cubic yards in the average size truck.

That is the equivalent amount ... they are going to set up a central mix plant on the site and produce the concrete there.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 23, 2019, 12:06:14 PM
I don't know if setting up shop on site would be more or less expensive than trucking in all the cellular concrete. Based on the density of the area, and the number of affected businesses and homes, they're probably just going for the one that is least noisy or disruptive.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on May 23, 2019, 01:55:20 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2019, 12:06:14 PM
I don't know if setting up shop on site would be more or less expensive than trucking in all the cellular concrete. Based on the density of the area, and the number of affected businesses and homes, they're probably just going for the one that is least noisy or disruptive.

If the equivalent of 4,000 Ready Mix trucks of concrete is needed in a specific location, several blocks of street in this case, the central mix plant will be considerably less expensive per cubic yard of concrete, assuming that there is enough space to set it up, which of course would be temporary.

There are several different types --
https://www.vincehagan.com/central-mix-concrete-batch-plants/
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 23, 2019, 02:16:32 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 23, 2019, 01:55:20 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2019, 12:06:14 PM
I don't know if setting up shop on site would be more or less expensive than trucking in all the cellular concrete. Based on the density of the area, and the number of affected businesses and homes, they're probably just going for the one that is least noisy or disruptive.

If the equivalent of 4,000 Ready Mix trucks of concrete is needed in a specific location, several blocks of street in this case, the central mix plant will be considerably less expensive per cubic yard of concrete, assuming that there is enough space to set it up, which of course would be temporary.

There are several different types --
https://www.vincehagan.com/central-mix-concrete-batch-plants/

Cool, thanks for the link. Sounds like a win-win for everyone. Assuming the mixing process isn't incredibly noisy. Though even then, I doubt it could be any louder than the noise produced by the traffic in the old tunnel, coming up through the vents.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on May 23, 2019, 02:51:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2019, 02:16:32 PM
Cool, thanks for the link. Sounds like a win-win for everyone. Assuming the mixing process isn't incredibly noisy. Though even then, I doubt it could be any louder than the noise produced by the traffic in the old tunnel, coming up through the vents.

Cellular concrete as about 1/3 the density of structural concrete, but the production is still fairly similar.

http://www.cellularconcreteinc.com/

Cellular Concrete is a low-density fill material primarily used in geotechnical applications.  The Lightweight Cellular Concrete is made by the injection (or blending) of a pre-formed stable foam into a cement-based slurry.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 23, 2019, 03:24:09 PM
Now we have to see how well the new tunnel will hold up when Seattle has its next earthquake. Since they can't be predicted, we might be in for a very long wait.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on May 23, 2019, 06:16:57 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 23, 2019, 03:24:09 PM
Now we have to see how well the new tunnel will hold up when Seattle has its next earthquake. Since they can't be predicted, we might be in for a very long wait.

The tunnel was designed to move with the dirt around it. I don't understand all the engineering, but it's probably going to be the safest place to be in an earthquake. Since the ground is what's moving, being inside the ground should be optimal.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 23, 2019, 11:26:48 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2019, 06:16:57 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 23, 2019, 03:24:09 PM
Now we have to see how well the new tunnel will hold up when Seattle has its next earthquake. Since they can't be predicted, we might be in for a very long wait.

The tunnel was designed to move with the dirt around it. I don't understand all the engineering, but it's probably going to be the safest place to be in an earthquake. Since the ground is what's moving, being inside the ground should be optimal.

Most of the danger from earthquakes comes from other structures falling onto you. Being in a tunnel helps minimize that, compared to say Pioneer Square (where most of the buildings have tons of brick masonry that will come crashing down).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on May 23, 2019, 11:52:41 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 23, 2019, 03:24:09 PM
Now we have to see how well the new tunnel will hold up when Seattle has its next earthquake. Since they can't be predicted, we might be in for a sudden strike at any time.

FIFY.  It has been 319 years and counting since the last one.  Might want to check intervals between Cascadia Subduction Zone quakes before playing the "long time to go" card.  For those of us in the PNW, we are playing a game of You Bet Your Life, no matter whether you are aware of the hazard or just an ostrich.

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on May 24, 2019, 02:14:05 AM
Demolition timelapse from a Western Avenue office building:

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bickendan on May 24, 2019, 05:36:21 AM
Amazing how the removal of an icon like that improves everything.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on June 12, 2019, 03:24:26 PM
Tolling is delayed until fall due to missed deadlines from the tolling vendor.

https://twitter.com/GrahamKIRO7/status/1138885158042423296
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on June 12, 2019, 06:02:31 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 12, 2019, 03:24:26 PM
Tolling is delayed until fall due to missed deadlines from the tolling vendor.

Dammit. The congestion is getting worse, so I was looking forward to a toll, to get some relief.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: CtrlAltDel on June 13, 2019, 04:38:43 AM
Quote from: Bruce on May 24, 2019, 02:14:05 AM
Demolition timelapse from a Western Avenue office building:

I love videos like this.

I especially liked the chomper thing that seemed to chew away the concrete vaguely like the Cookie Monster. What I wasn't expecting though is just how much of the process of demolition consists of hauling the stuff away. I'm amazed too that at one point in time all that concrete and rebar had to have been hauled in. The significant visual transformation of the area due to the demolition makes a bit more sense to me now given just how much material was there.

On a side note, I've been to Elliott's Oyster House on Pier 56, and so I've probably walked under the viaduct right where the camera was. 
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on June 13, 2019, 10:23:16 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 13, 2019, 04:38:43 AM
Quote from: Bruce on May 24, 2019, 02:14:05 AM
Demolition timelapse from a Western Avenue office building:

I love videos like this.

I especially liked the chomper thing that seemed to chew away the concrete vaguely like the Cookie Monster. What I wasn't expecting though is just how much of the process of demolition consists of hauling the stuff away. I'm amazed too that at one point in time all that concrete and rebar had to have been hauled in. The significant visual transformation of the area due to the demolition makes a bit more sense to me now given just how much material was there.

On a side note, I've been to Elliott's Oyster House on Pier 56, and so I've probably walked under the viaduct right where the camera was. 
I must admit, I think it was cool to see two weeks of demolition and clearance work squeezed into a 15-minute video.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on June 13, 2019, 10:18:21 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 12, 2019, 03:24:26 PM
Tolling is delayed until fall due to missed deadlines from the tolling vendor.

https://twitter.com/GrahamKIRO7/status/1138885158042423296
Is there a concession to the vendor, or is the state expecting to see toll revenue from this?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: rte66man on June 18, 2019, 06:38:16 PM
Quote from: Henry on June 13, 2019, 10:23:16 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 13, 2019, 04:38:43 AM
Quote from: Bruce on May 24, 2019, 02:14:05 AM
Demolition timelapse from a Western Avenue office building:

I love videos like this.

I especially liked the chomper thing that seemed to chew away the concrete vaguely like the Cookie Monster. What I wasn't expecting though is just how much of the process of demolition consists of hauling the stuff away. I'm amazed too that at one point in time all that concrete and rebar had to have been hauled in. The significant visual transformation of the area due to the demolition makes a bit more sense to me now given just how much material was there.

On a side note, I've been to Elliott's Oyster House on Pier 56, and so I've probably walked under the viaduct right where the camera was. 
I must admit, I think it was cool to see two weeks of demolition and clearance work squeezed into a 15-minute video.

I loved the video.  It reminded me of a bad stop-action monster movie.   :bigass:
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on June 20, 2019, 04:43:24 PM
Small trinkets made out of viaduct rubble sell for $150-200. I wonder if WSDOT actually authorized this.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/pike-place-market-artists-crafting-beautiful-creations-out-of-alaskan-way-viaduct-demolition/959953373
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on June 25, 2019, 11:04:12 AM
Quote from: rte66man on May 22, 2019, 09:05:02 PM
So where are they disposing of all that steel?  I'm assuming the concrete is being crushed and recycled.

I would assume that all of that rebar steel is being cut into manageable-sized pieces to be sold and delivered by truck and/or rail to whatever scrap yards are offering the best prices for it, to in turn be sold and delivered to whatever foundries and/or steel mills are offering the best prices for it.  Scrap is a very important raw material for foundries and steel mills and yes, iron and steel has always been one of the very most 'recycled' materials of all.

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on July 18, 2019, 12:28:58 AM
Another demolition video. Ferma are moving south of Yesler soon.

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on July 18, 2019, 02:49:19 AM
A couple weeks ago, I was driving south on 99, and exited at Harrison. I couldn't help but notice, after proceeding straight towards downtown (on Aurora Ave), that the entrance to the Battery St Tunnel has completely disappeared. As far as I could tell, they were preparing the roadway for its final configuration. I proceeded straight down the middle of Aurora all the way to Denny, when traffic normally would have swung right to avoid entering the tunnel.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on July 18, 2019, 09:52:57 AM
Quote from: Bruce on July 18, 2019, 12:28:58 AM
Another demolition video. Ferma are moving south of Yesler soon.


I appreciate your sharing this video! It gives me a better understanding of what goes on in the demolition process, from the dismantling of the bridge decks to the removal and transport of the resulting debris (most of which is recyclable).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on July 18, 2019, 11:58:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 18, 2019, 02:49:19 AM
A couple weeks ago, I was driving south on 99, and exited at Harrison. I couldn't help but notice, after proceeding straight towards downtown (on Aurora Ave), that the entrance to the Battery St Tunnel has completely disappeared. As far as I could tell, they were preparing the roadway for its final configuration. I proceeded straight down the middle of Aurora all the way to Denny, when traffic normally would have swung right to avoid entering the tunnel.

This was the view from Denny Way about a month ago:

(https://i.imgur.com/gWvze8u.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on July 19, 2019, 12:22:58 AM
Quote from: Bruce on July 18, 2019, 11:58:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 18, 2019, 02:49:19 AM
A couple weeks ago, I was driving south on 99, and exited at Harrison. I couldn't help but notice, after proceeding straight towards downtown (on Aurora Ave), that the entrance to the Battery St Tunnel has completely disappeared. As far as I could tell, they were preparing the roadway for its final configuration. I proceeded straight down the middle of Aurora all the way to Denny, when traffic normally would have swung right to avoid entering the tunnel.

This was the view from Denny Way about a month ago:

https://i.imgur.com/gWvze8u.jpg

Wow. They really weren't screwing around through there.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on July 19, 2019, 01:33:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 19, 2019, 12:22:58 AM
Quote from: Bruce on July 18, 2019, 11:58:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 18, 2019, 02:49:19 AM
A couple weeks ago, I was driving south on 99, and exited at Harrison. I couldn't help but notice, after proceeding straight towards downtown (on Aurora Ave), that the entrance to the Battery St Tunnel has completely disappeared. As far as I could tell, they were preparing the roadway for its final configuration. I proceeded straight down the middle of Aurora all the way to Denny, when traffic normally would have swung right to avoid entering the tunnel.

This was the view from Denny Way about a month ago:

https://i.imgur.com/gWvze8u.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/gWvze8u.jpg)

Wow. They really weren't screwing around through there.


GSV from that area is from May, and shows them doing some of the fill-in work.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on July 21, 2019, 12:47:17 AM
A few shots of the waterfront from this morning:

(https://i.imgur.com/OGrOynP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QsIZtb1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/rIG0ehb.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/x2psWnx.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on July 24, 2019, 12:31:25 AM
Quote from: Bruce on July 21, 2019, 12:47:17 AM
A few shots of the waterfront from this morning:

(https://i.imgur.com/rIG0ehb.jpg)



The new pedestrian bridge to the ferry terminal was built as soon as a section of the viaduct was removed, but the building it goes to isn't completed yet.  The section of Viaduct around the existing ped bridge probably won't be demolished until the new bridge is ready.  For all the delays that the tunnel had, how would they have handled the new ped bridge if the viaduct had been demolished years ago?  That is, a new southerly ped bridge wouldn't have connected to anything until the new terminal building was built.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on July 24, 2019, 01:04:31 AM
It could have been connected to a section of the existing balcony next to the (now removed) clock enclosure. Or, more likely, they'd have demolished the old bridge anyway and just run shuttle buses between 1st and the street-level entrance for ADA compliance while telling everyone else to just hoof it uphill.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on September 06, 2019, 10:32:41 PM
The last double-decker section (at the pedestrian bridge) is about to come down.

https://twitter.com/SkyPixAerialLLC/status/1170124844114960384
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 07, 2019, 12:28:08 AM
Managed to grab one last shot of that underpass on the 19th of August. Also grabbed a shot of the Temp-90 sign, but I won't post it since it's been posted to death already.

(https://i.imgur.com/8hrwITz.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ozarkman417 on September 07, 2019, 02:42:01 PM
I'm sure the old US 99 sign has been posted already, too.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MikieTimT on September 08, 2019, 05:08:02 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 06, 2019, 10:32:41 PM
The last double-decker section (at the pedestrian bridge) is about to come down.

https://twitter.com/SkyPixAerialLLC/status/1170124844114960384

Apparently my brother was at the site when the local news was interviewing pedestrians about the change.  Who knew he was decent on camera?  He's the first and last person interviewed in the segment.

https://komonews.com/news/sr-99-tunnel/ferry-commuters-face-changes-as-last-section-of-alaskan-way-viaduct-ready-to-meet-its-doom (https://komonews.com/news/sr-99-tunnel/ferry-commuters-face-changes-as-last-section-of-alaskan-way-viaduct-ready-to-meet-its-doom)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 08, 2019, 11:04:27 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on September 08, 2019, 05:08:02 PM
Apparently my brother was at the site when the local news was interviewing pedestrians about the change.  Who knew he was decent on camera?  He's the first and last person interviewed in the segment.

https://komonews.com/news/sr-99-tunnel/ferry-commuters-face-changes-as-last-section-of-alaskan-way-viaduct-ready-to-meet-its-doom (https://komonews.com/news/sr-99-tunnel/ferry-commuters-face-changes-as-last-section-of-alaskan-way-viaduct-ready-to-meet-its-doom)

Ha! Nice! Roadgeekery runs in the family, whether you like it or not. Was he intentionally trying to get interviewed? Was he down there specifically to see the viaduct?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MikieTimT on September 09, 2019, 02:44:02 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 08, 2019, 11:04:27 PM
Quote from: MikieTimT on September 08, 2019, 05:08:02 PM
Apparently my brother was at the site when the local news was interviewing pedestrians about the change.  Who knew he was decent on camera?  He's the first and last person interviewed in the segment.

https://komonews.com/news/sr-99-tunnel/ferry-commuters-face-changes-as-last-section-of-alaskan-way-viaduct-ready-to-meet-its-doom (https://komonews.com/news/sr-99-tunnel/ferry-commuters-face-changes-as-last-section-of-alaskan-way-viaduct-ready-to-meet-its-doom)

Ha! Nice! Roadgeekery runs in the family, whether you like it or not. Was he intentionally trying to get interviewed? Was he down there specifically to see the viaduct?

Nope, not intentional.  Just walks most places around Seattle unless he needs to work.  He drives to work, but other than that, has to leave town to enjoy his vehicles and motorcycles.  His condo is about 4 blocks south of the Needle within sight of the monorail, so he's convenient to a great many places by foot and just happened upon the crew.  I don't even know if he's aware of my geekery actually.  If he lived anywhere other than Seattle, he probably might be one himself.  Traffic there just sucks the joy out of driving most days for him.  He's got a buddy that has land out east closer to the mountains, so he's likely to pick up a small camper to pull behind the 1996 4Runner he just picked up and spend more time out of town, though.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on September 10, 2019, 09:47:17 AM
I must admit, downtown Seattle looks a million times better without the viaduct!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MikieTimT on September 10, 2019, 10:39:20 PM
Quote from: Henry on September 10, 2019, 09:47:17 AM
I must admit, downtown Seattle looks a million times better without the viaduct!

It does and when they parkify it further, it will look even better.  I will miss the views we got from driving north on it, especially at certain times of the evening in the clearer summer months, but this is progress and for the better.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on September 24, 2019, 10:42:46 PM
The definitive viaduct video from WSDOT:

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on September 25, 2019, 12:58:10 AM
When will the project be completed, meaning everything cleaned up, landscaping in place, signals and signs installed, etc.?

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on September 25, 2019, 01:07:29 AM
Quote from: nexus73 on September 25, 2019, 12:58:10 AM
When will the project be completed, meaning everything cleaned up, landscaping in place, signals and signs installed, etc.?

Rick

2023. There are a lot of elements (including new streets and bridges) that have to be lifted into place.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on September 25, 2019, 06:46:29 AM
Quote from: nexus73 on September 25, 2019, 12:58:10 AM
When will the project be completed, meaning everything cleaned up, landscaping in place, signals and signs installed, etc.?  Rick

Plus what about the boulevard part of the project?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on September 25, 2019, 09:35:28 AM
Quote from: Bruce on September 24, 2019, 10:42:46 PM
The definitive viaduct video from WSDOT:


The difference is as clear as night and day, and I stand by the post I made before it:
Quote from: Henry on September 10, 2019, 09:47:17 AM
I must admit, downtown Seattle looks a million times better without the viaduct!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on September 25, 2019, 01:32:03 PM
Quote from: Henry on September 10, 2019, 09:47:17 AM
I must admit, downtown Seattle looks a million times better without the viaduct!

Yes!

Almost the same view as from the viaduct can still be had from several points along 1st Ave. and Pike Place Market.  On the whole, it's probably better that people get out and walk to enjoy the view rather than watch the view while they are driving.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on September 29, 2019, 01:33:08 PM
Agreed, the highway served its purpose, and well, but it was time to move on.  When that structure was built, that was an industrial and port wasteland.  Now it is the center of the city's 'vibe'.

Also, until the bypass tunnel was built a century or so ago, mainline railroads used Alaska Way, 'street running' style, too.

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on September 29, 2019, 03:38:19 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on September 29, 2019, 01:33:08 PM
Also, until the bypass tunnel was built a century or so ago, mainline railroads used Alaska Way, 'street running' style, too.

Yeah, Alaskan Way was nuckin' futs for a while. Many freeways were designed to cut off the nice areas from the industrial or poor areas, but the viaduct was purely designed to pass over the craziness of the old road, even after the tunnel opened. Of course, it was also designed to tie into several other freeways, and that never happened. But it served its primary purpose quite well for a very long time.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on October 01, 2019, 03:50:01 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 29, 2019, 03:38:19 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on September 29, 2019, 01:33:08 PM
Also, until the bypass tunnel was built a century or so ago, mainline railroads used Alaska Way, 'street running' style, too.

Yeah, Alaskan Way was nuckin' futs for a while. Many freeways were designed to cut off the nice areas from the industrial or poor areas, but the viaduct was purely designed to pass over the craziness of the old road, even after the tunnel opened. Of course, it was also designed to tie into several other freeways, and that never happened. But it served its primary purpose quite well for a very long time.


It also doesn't help that people didn't care for the waterfronts in most cities until the 70s.  They were where the docks were, and the dock workers, which were seen as lower people.  People also didn't care much for views, as the water was often polluted and smelled bad.  So all the things that people didn't want were along the waterfront, which explains all the freeways built along waterfronts.


And the Railroad tunnel, was one of the biggest reasons that those pro-99 Tunnel were so gung-ho, as we knew it would work, and knew how safe they were.  Then again, it would have been a lot cheaper and faster to do the original cut-and-cover Tunnel/Seawall under Alaskan Way that was proposed starting in the mid-90s.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on October 09, 2019, 03:20:25 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdXCedSGWec

Tolling to start in the tunnel on November 9, 2019. Get your Good to Go! transponder ready!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 11, 2019, 03:05:25 AM
Got a video of the first day of tolling. You can see the final signage here. Couple of errors in what I said, which I've corrected in the video description.

https://youtu.be/c5q-srPmRfQ
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: nexus73 on November 11, 2019, 10:07:04 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 11, 2019, 03:05:25 AM
Got a video of the first day of tolling. You can see the final signage here. Couple of errors in what I said, which I've corrected in the video description.

https://youtu.be/c5q-srPmRfQ

The drive through the tunnel seemed longer than expected.  Oh well, at least you get your money's worth of tunnel vision!

Rick
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 11, 2019, 04:24:28 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on November 11, 2019, 10:07:04 AM
The drive through the tunnel seemed longer than expected.  Oh well, at least you get your money's worth of tunnel vision!

It's a surprisingly long tunnel! Definitely worth it. The fact that so many people may refuse to pay the toll boggles my mind. It saves an insane amount of time. Nevermind the pedestrians downtown who would obviously appreciate a few less cars getting in their way.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on November 14, 2019, 01:32:55 PM
Having driven it, it seems well worth the $3 to avoid downtown traffic, especially if heading to West Seattle or the Airport and I-5 is bogged down.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 14, 2019, 03:51:42 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on November 14, 2019, 01:32:55 PM
Having driven it, it seems well worth the $3 to avoid downtown traffic, especially if heading to West Seattle or the Airport and I-5 is bogged down.

Hell, it's only $1 during off-peak hours with a G2G pass. I don't know why people wouldn't get one. You'll make up the cost to buy the Flex Pass within eight rides, and only three with the regular sticker pass (probably sufficient for this tunnel).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Truvelo on November 14, 2019, 04:27:23 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedcam.uk%2Fd70%2Falaskan.jpg&hash=6985622f90684edddf9339ca5f5d4ee081324317)

I guess this view now looks a lot different to this photo I took in March 2018.

Jakeroot's video shows the shoulder in the tunnel is on the left. Is there any reason for this?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on November 14, 2019, 08:27:45 PM
Oops!

Accidental alert causes brief panic in Seattle tunnel during Thursday commute (https://mynorthwest.com/1598411/seattle-tunnel-accidental-alert/)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on November 14, 2019, 08:34:22 PM
Quote from: Truvelo on November 14, 2019, 04:27:23 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedcam.uk%2Fd70%2Falaskan.jpg&hash=6985622f90684edddf9339ca5f5d4ee081324317)

I guess this view now looks a lot different to this photo I took in March 2018.

Jakeroot's video shows the shoulder in the tunnel is on the left. Is there any reason for this?

The viewing platform (aka part of the ferry terminal) has also been demolished recently.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 14, 2019, 08:41:46 PM
Quote from: Truvelo on November 14, 2019, 04:27:23 PM
Jakeroot's video shows the shoulder in the tunnel is on the left. Is there any reason for this?

I believe it has to do with the emergency doors, which are on the left. If you have to abandon your car for whatever reason, you don't have to run across the carriageway to escape the tunnel. If I'm not mistaken, the southbound carriageway has a right-side shoulder for the same reason, just in reverse.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: stevashe on November 14, 2019, 10:41:20 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 14, 2019, 08:41:46 PM
Quote from: Truvelo on November 14, 2019, 04:27:23 PM
Jakeroot's video shows the shoulder in the tunnel is on the left. Is there any reason for this?

I believe it has to do with the emergency doors, which are on the left. If you have to abandon your car for whatever reason, you don't have to run across the carriageway to escape the tunnel. If I'm not mistaken, the southbound carriageway has a right-side shoulder for the same reason, just in reverse.

That is correct, it's to have room to get to the doors, and it is on the right southbound since both directions are stacked on top of each other.

Quote from: jakeroot on November 14, 2019, 03:51:42 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on November 14, 2019, 01:32:55 PM
Having driven it, it seems well worth the $3 to avoid downtown traffic, especially if heading to West Seattle or the Airport and I-5 is bogged down.

Hell, it's only $1 during off-peak hours with a G2G pass. I don't know why people wouldn't get one. You'll make up the cost to buy the Flex Pass within eight rides, and only three with the regular sticker pass (probably sufficient for this tunnel).

Yeah I don't get it, the tolls are really very reasonable, not complaining much though, just means it'll be even faster for those that do use it! And even during peak hours, the highest toll is only $2.25 with the pass.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 15, 2019, 02:13:43 PM
If I ever go to Seattle (unlikely), the first thing I will do is take a ride through the Alaskan Way Tunnel. In the meantime, I'll use Streetview on Google Maps to travel through the tunnel.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on November 20, 2019, 02:11:10 PM
The last parts of the viaduct are coming down this week. https://komonews.com/news/local/the-final-piece-of-seattles-viaduct-comes-down

And you can get pieces of the viaduct from Friends of the Waterfront: https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/library/advisories-and-updates/the-viaduct-is-rubble-and-you-can-have-a-piece
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on November 20, 2019, 11:18:25 PM
I got my chunk and walked it down to the viaduct.

(https://i.imgur.com/XCOOxSk.png)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: MikieTimT on November 22, 2019, 10:42:40 AM
Quote from: Bruce on November 20, 2019, 11:18:25 PM
I got my chunk and walked it down to the viaduct.

If enough others do the same, maybe you guys can put it back together!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on November 23, 2019, 11:53:54 PM
The last column of the viaduct was removed on Thursday.

Latest WSDOT drone video:

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: qguy on November 24, 2019, 08:26:34 AM
Kilroy!   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on November 25, 2019, 10:09:00 AM
And so the transformation is complete!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on November 25, 2019, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: Henry on November 25, 2019, 10:09:00 AM
And so the transformation is complete!

One half of it. We're now going to see a few more years of construction so that the waterfront boulevard and promenade can come together. The end result is going to be amazing.

(https://i.imgur.com/U5c7ypw.jpg)

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on November 25, 2019, 05:11:21 PM
Quote from: Bruce on November 25, 2019, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: Henry on November 25, 2019, 10:09:00 AM
And so the transformation is complete!
One half of it. We're now going to see a few more years of construction so that the waterfront boulevard and promenade can come together. The end result is going to be amazing.
There was a lot of skepticism about this project given the problems encountered in cost overruns and schedule slippages on other such urban tunneling projects, most notably in Boston; and the cost of almost $2 billion.

Looks like it will be a wise investment indeed, given that such tunnels are now designed for a life of 75 years or more.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mgk920 on November 26, 2019, 12:35:01 PM
IMHO, the $3 regular and even cheaper discounted tolls are a bargain for the utility.  That looks to me to be a very handy way to get from one end of town to the other.

Also, I would have kept one of the columns in place as a monument to that trendy mid-20th century nostalgia.

Mike
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 26, 2019, 01:01:08 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on November 26, 2019, 12:35:01 PM
Also, I would have kept one of the columns in place as a monument to that trendy mid-20th century nostalgia.

Leaving the whole viaduct in place would have been insane, but a column or two wouldn't have been unreasonable, and would have been a great bit of history.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on November 26, 2019, 02:47:32 PM
It would have been possible if that column was renovated to be earthquake-resistant. Can't take any chances.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 26, 2019, 03:43:49 PM
Quote from: Bruce on November 26, 2019, 02:47:32 PM
It would have been possible if that column was renovated to be earthquake-resistant. Can't take any chances.

Oh, absolutely. A free-standing column without any redundancies to fail "on" is quite dangerous. But re-enforcing one or two columns shouldn't be any more difficult than anything else they're doing along the waterfront. I think the bigger issue is whether any of the columns would be sufficiently far enough out of the way of other plans.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on November 28, 2019, 12:56:46 AM
View from Steinbrueck Park today:

(https://i.imgur.com/I2KFKQ1.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on November 29, 2019, 11:36:51 PM
It truly looks better already! Even that little strip of green grass along the temporary bike path helps a lot.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mrsman on December 01, 2019, 12:15:56 PM
At least based on what's pictured, it seems like they have a lot of room to plan a really nice boulevard.  Are there any available plans as to what the final orientation of the street will look like?
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 01, 2019, 07:05:43 PM
Quote from: mrsman on December 01, 2019, 12:15:56 PM
At least based on what's pictured, it seems like they have a lot of room to plan a really nice boulevard.  Are there any available plans as to what the final orientation of the street will look like?

It's all on the Waterfront Seattle website: https://waterfrontseattle.org/waterfront-projects/alaskan-way

Basically, the street will remain 4 lanes and be shifted to the west side of the corridor. The east side of the corridor will have bike lanes, a widened sidewalk promenade, trees, sitting areas, and all the works.

At Pine Street, the Alaskan Way corridor will split with a new street (Elliott Way) traveling up the viaduct ROW under the market. There will also be a nice pedestrian crossing.

(https://i.imgur.com/uST7IOK.jpg)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: X99 on December 01, 2019, 11:55:48 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 01, 2019, 07:05:43 PM
Quote from: mrsman on December 01, 2019, 12:15:56 PM
At least based on what's pictured, it seems like they have a lot of room to plan a really nice boulevard.  Are there any available plans as to what the final orientation of the street will look like?

It's all on the Waterfront Seattle website: https://waterfrontseattle.org/waterfront-projects/alaskan-way

Basically, the street will remain 4 lanes and be shifted to the west side of the corridor. The east side of the corridor will have bike lanes, a widened sidewalk promenade, trees, sitting areas, and all the works.

At Pine Street, the Alaskan Way corridor will split with a new street (Elliott Way) traveling up the viaduct ROW under the market. There will also be a nice pedestrian crossing.

(https://i.imgur.com/uST7IOK.jpg)
That pedestrian overpass looks pretty interesting. I've only seen one other overpass plan like it.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 02, 2019, 12:27:55 AM
The "Overlook Walk" is going to be an amazing asset. The eastern (uphill) part will hook into the recently-built MarketFront extension of the Pike Place Market, which is already teeming with traffic. The theater-style seating overlooking the water is going to be very popular during sunsets, and the aquarium is right down below.

(https://waterfrontseattle.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/_Profiles/6c4daa0a/cb075a3f/Axon_labels-1.jpg?v=636991717140000000)
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on December 05, 2019, 02:36:27 PM
I wish they would consider, since they have the space and will, bringing the Waterfront Trolly back as part of this project.  It could even be integrated with Link at Union Station or other locations as part of the project, and provide better access to the waterfront for tourists.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: mrsman on December 05, 2019, 04:59:36 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on December 05, 2019, 02:36:27 PM
I wish they would consider, since they have the space and will, bringing the Waterfront Trolly back as part of this project.  It could even be integrated with Link at Union Station or other locations as part of the project, and provide better access to the waterfront for tourists.

I agree.  To the north and south of here, Alaskan Way is two lanes in each direction.  Given the amount of space that is now available with the removal of the viaduct, you can maintain 2 travel lanes in each direction, parallel parking, protected bike path, bus lanes, and even rail transit along the corridor.  Extra space can be used to widen sidewalks.

The First Hill Streetcar ends a few blocks away.  A small extension, especially when most of the extension will have its own ROW, would be a great idea.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 05, 2019, 10:37:31 PM
The actual plan is to connect the SLU and First Hill streetcar lines together via a corridor on 1st Avenue. This project (the Center City Connector) has been on hold for a bit because the funding is not locked down and SDOT made a few hiccups in planning and procurement, but should get going soon.

The Waterfront Streetcar should definitely be brought back as a separate line that follows the original route (Alaskan to Main), but there is no longer a place to terminate at ID-Chinatown Station because of the protected bike lane extension there, which also took out the old platform. It would be possible to route it along Jackson and briefly interline (to 8th, where there is a streetcar base), but I fear it would cause congestion with the headways expected on the combined system.

Though all of this could have been avoided in the first place had the streetcar barn not been demolished for the sculpture park. That was a total waste.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on December 08, 2019, 12:29:45 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 05, 2019, 10:37:31 PM
The actual plan is to connect the SLU and First Hill streetcar lines together via a corridor on 1st Avenue. This project (the Center City Connector) has been on hold for a bit because the funding is not locked down and SDOT made a few hiccups in planning and procurement, but should get going soon.

The Waterfront Streetcar should definitely be brought back as a separate line that follows the original route (Alaskan to Main), but there is no longer a place to terminate at ID-Chinatown Station because of the protected bike lane extension there, which also took out the old platform. It would be possible to route it along Jackson and briefly interline (to 8th, where there is a streetcar base), but I fear it would cause congestion with the headways expected on the combined system.

Though all of this could have been avoided in the first place had the streetcar barn not been demolished for the sculpture park. That was a total waste.


Agreed.  The removal of the trolley in the first place was such a short-sighted move.  Of course, they could always have electrically compatible trollies, like Portland had (has?), that could connect to the Link lines, then store the trollies with the streetcars at their depot.  It can't be that hard to do, there just needs to be political will, and money.



Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 08, 2019, 04:23:53 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on December 08, 2019, 12:29:45 PM
Agreed.  The removal of the trolley in the first place was such a short-sighted move.  Of course, they could always have electrically compatible trollies, like Portland had (has?), that could connect to the Link lines, then store the trollies with the streetcars at their depot.  It can't be that hard to do, there just needs to be political will, and money.

Link uses 1500V DC to reduce the number of substations, but this is an unusual configuration that makes it hard to use conventional equipment. The streetcar system could never integrate on that alone, along with there being no real need to connect the two even with an out-of-service track. The Charles Street depot should have enough capacity after its planned expansion and there's always the chance to build another depot in the state-owned land in the viaduct ROW at Railroad Way.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 13, 2019, 07:40:54 PM
WSDOT won its lawsuit against Seattle Tunnel Partners (the project contractor) over the Bertha stall. $57.2 million in damages to be paid back to the state (covering most of the budget appropriation for the delay), plus no need to pay for the overruns that STP will have to be stuck with.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/contractor-ordered-to-pay-state-over-tunnel-boring-machine-berthas-big-stall/
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on December 14, 2019, 02:20:25 AM
Quote from: Bruce on December 13, 2019, 07:40:54 PM
WSDOT won its lawsuit against Seattle Tunnel Partners (the project contractor) over the Bertha stall. $57.2 million in damages to be paid back to the state (covering most of the budget appropriation for the delay), plus no need to pay for the overruns that STP will have to be stuck with.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/contractor-ordered-to-pay-state-over-tunnel-boring-machine-berthas-big-stall/
"The jury found that the pipe was not a substantial unexpected underground condition for the boring machine and was not to blame for the machine's breakdown." (another site)
Bullshit. The jury are not engineers. I know engineers who were involved with this project and yes, it was, both substantial and to blame for the breakdown. The grinders were not designed for it. They should appeal.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on December 14, 2019, 09:16:56 AM
Quote from: Alps on December 14, 2019, 02:20:25 AM
Quote from: Bruce on December 13, 2019, 07:40:54 PM
WSDOT won its lawsuit against Seattle Tunnel Partners (the project contractor) over the Bertha stall. $57.2 million in damages to be paid back to the state (covering most of the budget appropriation for the delay), plus no need to pay for the overruns that STP will have to be stuck with.
"The jury found that the pipe was not a substantial unexpected underground condition for the boring machine and was not to blame for the machine's breakdown." (another site)
Bullshit. The jury are not engineers. I know engineers who were involved with this project and yes, it was, both substantial and to blame for the breakdown. The grinders were not designed for it. They should appeal.
That is a big problem with these urban tunneling projects.

As beneficial as they are in concept, in this case putting the highway underground and enabling the removal of the old waterfront viaduct; when boring a tunnel 100 to 200 feet below the surface, there is no telling what kind of obstacles the TBM may run into, and geological surveys can't (as far as I know) determine in advance that something like that is down there short of making a pilot bore. 

Or what if that they know that there is an old conduit down there but it is so old that they don't know the exact route again short of drilling down there and surveying it.  So to a certain extent they have to take some chances when boring the new tunnel.  I don't blame the contractor for this.  A TBM is not designed to bore thru a large steel reinforced concrete conduit.

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 14, 2019, 12:28:10 PM
It wasn't a conduit, but an 8-inch steel pipe that was used during the same project to measure groundwater. It was originally feared that Bertha had hit some random artifact from the city's early history (like a buried ship), as the tunneling route went under a bit of landfill.

I'd be glad if the state (and taxpayers) aren't on the hook for paying an extra few hundred million for the screw-up. Otherwise, we'd need to raise the tolls a lot higher (for the few drivers who actually use the tunnel) to pay for it.

There was a 26 percent drop in vehicles using the tunnel since tolling started on November 9, according to WSDOT: https://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2019/12/traffic-since-sr-99-tolling-started.html
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Beltway on December 14, 2019, 01:25:10 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 14, 2019, 12:28:10 PM
It wasn't a conduit, but an 8-inch steel pipe that was used during the same project to measure groundwater. It was originally feared that Bertha had hit some random artifact from the city's early history (like a buried ship), as the tunneling route went under a bit of landfill.
I'd be glad if the state (and taxpayers) aren't on the hook for paying an extra few hundred million for the screw-up. Otherwise, we'd need to raise the tolls a lot higher (for the few drivers who actually use the tunnel) to pay for it.
Well, it looks like it is a controversial matter.

The liquidated damages clause is written into a contract upfront, and is not a lawsuit per se.

Most often, the term "liquidated damages" appears in a contract, and often is the title for a whole clause or section.  Parties to a contract use liquidated damages where actual damages, though real, are difficult or impossible to prove.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/liquidated_damages

If this article is correct, then the contractor could be responsible to pay liquidated damages in this case, that they did bear responsibility for the pipe.

WSDOT Wins $57.2-Million Against Contractor In Court Case
December 13, 2019

A Thurston County jury Dec. 13 awarded $57.2-million in liquidated damages to the Washington State Dept. of Transportation (WSDOT) in a dispute between the agency and contractor Seattle Tunnel Partners, a joint venture between Dragados USA and Tutor Perini Corp., over a multi-year shutdown of the State Route 99 tunneling project under downtown Seattle after the Hitachi Zosen-made Bertha tunnel-boring machine broke down in Dec. 2013.

The tunneling project, which completed in February 2019, three years behind schedule, began in July 2013.  Bertha, a 57.5-ft-diameter tunnel-boring machine (TBM) overheated and damaged the main bearing seals after hitting an 8-in. steel pipe.  The repair required an 80-ft-wide, 120-ft-deep shaft to bring machine parts to the surface.  It was a two-year fix.  STP sought reimbursement for repair costs and delays and WSDOT sued for a breach of the design-build contract over missing completion deadlines.  STP counter-sued, saying the location of the well pipe wasn't disclosed.  STP filed for $642 million from WSDOT for repair costs and damages, but that number was revised to $330 million ahead of the Oct. 7 trial start date.

During court proceedings, STP admitted it did know about the well, but forgot to mitigate its location before tunneling.  The Thurston County judge sided with WSDOT.

Roger Millar, WSDOT secretary, said in a statement that the contract was structured to place known risks associated with the tunneling on the contractor.  "We believe the jury got it right,"  he said, but noted an appeal is still possible.

During the trial, WSDOT lawyer David Goodnight of Stoel Rives LLP told ENR they were eager to get to trial to seek the full $57.2 million in a verdict.  Lawyers for STP did not respond to requests for comment.  STP's lawsuit against Hitachi-Zosen was settled out of court.  Terms were not disclosed.


https://www.enr.com/articles/48341-wsdot-wins-572-million-against-contractor-in-court-case
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on December 15, 2019, 01:06:15 AM
Okay, the fact that they knew about it and forgot is not something I had ever heard about before. That totally changes my opinion.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 24, 2019, 01:09:35 AM
WSDOT has posted a year-end summary for the project: https://wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/library/advisories-and-updates/looking-back-on-a-year-that-transformed-seattle-forever

And the video:

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on June 06, 2020, 11:48:01 PM
Here's a video I did showing Alaskan Way without the viaduct. Enjoy!

Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on June 07, 2020, 01:52:22 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on June 06, 2020, 11:48:01 PM
Here's a video I did showing Alaskan Way without the viaduct. Enjoy!


I don't normally watch road videos, but I had to see Seattle without the viaduct. That looks a lot like West Street in NY mixed with some McCarter Highway in Newark (rail next to road in the northern part). So... ordinary.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on June 07, 2020, 02:26:44 AM
Hopefully it'll look better when the boulevard is completed. At the minimum was should be looking at a better Marion Street bridge design.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on June 07, 2020, 04:50:29 AM
Quote from: Alps on June 07, 2020, 01:52:22 AM
So... ordinary.

What was once interesting is now..not.

That said, it's gonna be a better place for everyone once the boulevard is complete.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: CardInLex on July 18, 2020, 08:43:03 PM
Kentuckian here. I've been following this project for years... I actually got to go drive the tunnel a week or so after it opened... Any updates? Is there an estimated time for when the project will be complete. I need to plan a post-COVID trip.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on July 19, 2020, 03:12:16 PM
Quote from: CardInLex on July 18, 2020, 08:43:03 PM
Kentuckian here. I've been following this project for years... I actually got to go drive the tunnel a week or so after it opened... Any updates? Is there an estimated time for when the project will be complete. I need to plan a post-COVID trip.

The promenade should be finished in 2024, but COVID and budget issues can always push it back further. The viaduct has already been fully demolished and sections of the new street are being built, with some concrete being laid at the south end.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: ErmineNotyours on November 09, 2020, 09:45:27 PM
Award of Merit, Bridge Tunnel: WSDOT Alaskan Way Tunnel Design Build, SR 99 Deep Bored Tunnel (https://www.enr.com/articles/47605-award-of-merit-bridge-tunnel-wsdot-alaskan-way-tunnel-design-build-sr-99-deep-bored-tunnel)

It's dated September 25, 2019, but it was just mentioned on a morning news radio show today.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Henry on November 11, 2020, 10:19:13 AM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on November 09, 2020, 09:45:27 PM
Award of Merit, Bridge Tunnel: WSDOT Alaskan Way Tunnel Design Build, SR 99 Deep Bored Tunnel (https://www.enr.com/articles/47605-award-of-merit-bridge-tunnel-wsdot-alaskan-way-tunnel-design-build-sr-99-deep-bored-tunnel)

It's dated September 25, 2019, but it was just mentioned on a morning news radio show today.
I guess Bertha's breakdown and the subsequent delays that resulted are well worth this honor. I commend WSDOT for building an award-winning project that will be the next great thing for Seattle.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on November 11, 2020, 01:06:54 PM
Going through my YouTube, and I just spotted that my Alaskan Way Tunnel 'first day of tolling' video was posted basically one year ago today. Thus, it's been one year since tolling began!

Have a look back on the first day of tolling. Anyone care to spot the differences compared to today? I haven't been through the tunnel for a couple months, and I don't remember major changes post-tolling. So possibly, nothing has changed.

https://youtu.be/c5q-srPmRfQ
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: rte66man on December 09, 2020, 08:20:47 AM
^^^^^^^^^

Couple of questions. About 30 seconds in, there is an LED Speed Limit sign. Can this be changed based on traffic conditions? Also saw the speed limit in the tunnel is 45 mph.  Is tat fixed or is it also variable?

Last question (asks as ducking), does it ALWAY rain in Seattle?  :bigass:
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on December 09, 2020, 09:48:54 AM
Quote from: rte66man on December 09, 2020, 08:20:47 AM
Last question (asks as ducking), does it ALWAY rain in Seattle?  :bigass:

Yes.  You should never come here if you don't like rain.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 09, 2020, 12:40:58 PM
Quote from: rte66man on December 09, 2020, 08:20:47 AM
^^^^^^^^^

Couple of questions. About 30 seconds in, there is an LED Speed Limit sign. Can this be changed based on traffic conditions? Also saw the speed limit in the tunnel is 45 mph.  Is tat fixed or is it also variable?

I think it's designed to change, but I've never seen it as anything other than 45. That limit matches the limit north of the tunnel along Aurora Ave.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 15, 2020, 05:52:28 PM
The southernmost bit of the new Alaskan Way is now carrying traffic (which has shifted from the west side). I drove by to check it out and came across this nice surprise:

(https://i.imgur.com/f2Ykolv.jpg)

I still don't know exactly where SR 519 goes when it leaves Alaskan Way, but at least there's one shield!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 15, 2020, 06:01:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 15, 2020, 05:52:28 PM
I still don't know exactly where SR 519 goes when it leaves Alaskan Way, but at least there's one shield!

For anyone: is this the first time SR-519 has been signed? I don't recall ever seeing shields for it.

In the 167/509 extension thread, I was actually proposing a change to repurpose 519 in Tacoma as part of the 509 freeway extension, on the grounds that it is not signed and that 519 could be re-branded as I-90 Biz. Guess I spoke too soon.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 15, 2020, 06:13:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 15, 2020, 06:01:09 PM

For anyone: is this the first time SR-519 has been signed? I don't recall ever seeing shields for it.

It was signed before the viaduct demolition began: http://corcohighways.org/?p=992953
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 15, 2020, 06:48:38 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 15, 2020, 06:13:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 15, 2020, 06:01:09 PM

For anyone: is this the first time SR-519 has been signed? I don't recall ever seeing shields for it.

It was signed before the viaduct demolition began: http://corcohighways.org/?p=992953

Well, and I guess that was quite a while before I ever drove through that area. Seems that signs in that area are far more likely to indicate "TO 99" than reference anything else. Even now.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: TEG24601 on December 17, 2020, 02:48:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 15, 2020, 06:48:38 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 15, 2020, 06:13:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 15, 2020, 06:01:09 PM

For anyone: is this the first time SR-519 has been signed? I don't recall ever seeing shields for it.

It was signed before the viaduct demolition began: http://corcohighways.org/?p=992953 (http://corcohighways.org/?p=992953)

Well, and I guess that was quite a while before I ever drove through that area. Seems that signs in that area are far more likely to indicate "TO 99" than reference anything else. Even now.


Repurposing SR-519 would be a good idea, as typically, the routes on the west side should match the routes on the east side.  So just renumber SR 519 as SR 304/305 and call it good.  They could even route them in different directions (304 to I-5, 305 to SR 99).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Now I wonder if I-5 will ever get the big dog treatment through downtown Seattle. That road needs at least 6 lanes each way.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Sub-Urbanite on December 17, 2020, 03:37:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Now I wonder if I-5 will ever get the big dog treatment through downtown Seattle. That road needs at least 6 lanes each way.

No. No, it will not.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 04:33:49 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on December 17, 2020, 03:37:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Now I wonder if I-5 will ever get the big dog treatment through downtown Seattle. That road needs at least 6 lanes each way.

No. No, it will not.
Very sad if that is the case. It could definitely use it.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Alps on December 17, 2020, 04:50:01 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 04:33:49 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on December 17, 2020, 03:37:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Now I wonder if I-5 will ever get the big dog treatment through downtown Seattle. That road needs at least 6 lanes each way.

No. No, it will not.
Very sad if that is the case. It could definitely use it.
It really, more than anything, needs another parallel freeway to the 5 and 405.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on December 17, 2020, 05:29:51 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 04:33:49 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on December 17, 2020, 03:37:31 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Now I wonder if I-5 will ever get the big dog treatment through downtown Seattle. That road needs at least 6 lanes each way.
No. No, it will not.
Very sad if that is the case. It could definitely use it.

Yes, but I wouldn't expect I-5 expansion to happen either.  Residents would be very hostile, and it would be a big lift requiring removal or drastic rebuild of the Convention Center and Freeway Park downtown.

I-405 being expanded would be a little more likely.  At least the residents would be more friendly to larger freeways and there aren't big expensive structures built on top of it.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: sparker on December 17, 2020, 05:33:19 PM
Quote from: Bruce on December 15, 2020, 05:52:28 PM
The southernmost bit of the new Alaskan Way is now carrying traffic (which has shifted from the west side). I drove by to check it out and came across this nice surprise:

(https://i.imgur.com/f2Ykolv.jpg)

I still don't know exactly where SR 519 goes when it leaves Alaskan Way, but at least there's one shield!

Alaskan Way is WA 519 (and has been on paper) up to the ferry terminal (Bainbridge, Bremerton, Vashon), necessary under WA regs since at least one end of a state ferry must segue onto a state highway, which isn't the case for Vashon Island.  So the other end in Seattle is WA 519.  WA folks, be glad your DOT actually bothers to sign such routes; if it were CA, the only signage would be the BGS at the end of I-90 (if that!).
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Bruce on December 18, 2020, 01:00:13 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Now I wonder if I-5 will ever get the big dog treatment through downtown Seattle. That road needs at least 6 lanes each way.

God no. We do not need that at all. Not in a million years.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on December 18, 2020, 07:02:21 AM
Quote from: Bruce on December 18, 2020, 01:00:13 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Now I wonder if I-5 will ever get the big dog treatment through downtown Seattle. That road needs at least 6 lanes each way.

God no. We do not need that at all. Not in a million years.
I disagree. It needed it 10 years ago.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: stevashe on December 19, 2020, 02:20:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2020, 12:40:58 PM
Quote from: rte66man on December 09, 2020, 08:20:47 AM
^^^^^^^^^

Couple of questions. About 30 seconds in, there is an LED Speed Limit sign. Can this be changed based on traffic conditions? Also saw the speed limit in the tunnel is 45 mph.  Is tat fixed or is it also variable?

I think it's designed to change, but I've never seen it as anything other than 45. That limit matches the limit north of the tunnel along Aurora Ave.

I've seen lower speed limits driving through it during afternoon rush hour (back in 2019), so yes, it does change. I think the lowest I saw them go was 30. They can also be used to alert of lane closures and hazards, similar to the other per-lane LED signs in the Seattle area. I actually happened to get pictures of this in action, shown below.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50736459998_2bfb0c8c44_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kipBVG)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50737302747_fa808847b3_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kitWrR)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50737195831_aec85da863_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kitoEt)




Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 18, 2020, 07:02:21 AM
Quote from: Bruce on December 18, 2020, 01:00:13 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Now I wonder if I-5 will ever get the big dog treatment through downtown Seattle. That road needs at least 6 lanes each way.

God no. We do not need that at all. Not in a million years.
I disagree. It needed it 10 years ago.

I like my wide freeways as much as the next roadgeek, but I recognize that while I-5 may "need" many more lanes through downtown if you just take a surface level look at the traffic backups, there are many other factors at play. I-5 already has 5 lanes per direction to the south, and 4 per direction, plus the express lanes, to the north. The reason for reduced lanes downtown is due to the vast amount of traffic demand exiting downtown, and adding more through lanes would only shift the traffic jams to the edges of downtown (not to mention the complete lack of space for said additional lanes). Increasing capacity by eliminating bottlenecks and poor design choices (looking at you, left exits) would have a greater impact for much less cost and actually has at least some chance of being constructed.

For example, WSDOT is painting a third lane through the northbound bottleneck downtown, which should balance things out in terms of capacity to demand and ease traffic through the area.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: compdude787 on December 30, 2020, 02:30:17 AM
Quote from: stevashe on December 19, 2020, 02:20:06 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 18, 2020, 07:02:21 AM
Quote from: Bruce on December 18, 2020, 01:00:13 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Now I wonder if I-5 will ever get the big dog treatment through downtown Seattle. That road needs at least 6 lanes each way.

God no. We do not need that at all. Not in a million years.
I disagree. It needed it 10 years ago.

I like my wide freeways as much as the next roadgeek, but I recognize that while I-5 may "need" many more lanes through downtown if you just take a surface level look at the traffic backups, there are many other factors at play. I-5 already has 5 lanes per direction to the south, and 4 per direction, plus the express lanes, to the north. The reason for reduced lanes downtown is due to the vast amount of traffic demand exiting downtown, and adding more through lanes would only shift the traffic jams to the edges of downtown (not to mention the complete lack of space for said additional lanes). Increasing capacity by eliminating bottlenecks and poor design choices (looking at you, left exits) would have a greater impact for much less cost and actually has at least some chance of being constructed.

For example, WSDOT is painting a third lane through the northbound bottleneck downtown, which should balance things out in terms of capacity to demand and ease traffic through the area.

Agreed. I-5 is plenty wide already. There are several chokepoints on I-5 through downtown Seattle, including the one mentioned above, as well as the left exit and entrance at 520 as well as Mercer Street. They need to fix those before considering adding more lanes!
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 30, 2020, 04:09:23 AM
Quote from: compdude787 on December 30, 2020, 02:30:17 AM
Quote from: stevashe on December 19, 2020, 02:20:06 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 18, 2020, 07:02:21 AM
Quote from: Bruce on December 18, 2020, 01:00:13 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 17, 2020, 03:04:56 PM
Now I wonder if I-5 will ever get the big dog treatment through downtown Seattle. That road needs at least 6 lanes each way.

God no. We do not need that at all. Not in a million years.
I disagree. It needed it 10 years ago.

I like my wide freeways as much as the next roadgeek, but I recognize that while I-5 may "need" many more lanes through downtown if you just take a surface level look at the traffic backups, there are many other factors at play. I-5 already has 5 lanes per direction to the south, and 4 per direction, plus the express lanes, to the north. The reason for reduced lanes downtown is due to the vast amount of traffic demand exiting downtown, and adding more through lanes would only shift the traffic jams to the edges of downtown (not to mention the complete lack of space for said additional lanes). Increasing capacity by eliminating bottlenecks and poor design choices (looking at you, left exits) would have a greater impact for much less cost and actually has at least some chance of being constructed.

For example, WSDOT is painting a third lane through the northbound bottleneck downtown, which should balance things out in terms of capacity to demand and ease traffic through the area.

Agreed. I-5 is plenty wide already. There are several chokepoints on I-5 through downtown Seattle, including the one mentioned above, as well as the left exit and entrance at 520 as well as Mercer Street. They need to fix those before considering adding more lanes!

If they did actually go and fix all of those merge issues (Mercer Weave, 520 Shuffle), given the hundreds of millions that it would cost, I think we'd be hard-pressed to actually want to spend more to add lanes. Especially when you consider the general number of lanes in the city limits overall: we could expand I-5 to five through lanes through Seattle (at a considerable expense), but where are those lanes coming from? Where are they going? Because the Ship Canal Bridge only has four lanes in each direction over it (plus the reversible lanes), and that is not up for replacement anytime soon. I-5 is five lanes south of downtown but only if you count HOV lanes. Five regular lanes would require total reconstruction of the bridge system south of downtown.

The fact is that adding additional lanes to I-5 in a major fashion would require absolutely insane amounts of money. It's not happening, and there's virtually zero chance of it ever happening. The best we can hope for is improved ramp configuration and better city planning.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 30, 2020, 04:11:01 AM
Quote from: stevashe on December 19, 2020, 02:20:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 09, 2020, 12:40:58 PM
Quote from: rte66man on December 09, 2020, 08:20:47 AM
^^^^^^^^^

Couple of questions. About 30 seconds in, there is an LED Speed Limit sign. Can this be changed based on traffic conditions? Also saw the speed limit in the tunnel is 45 mph.  Is tat fixed or is it also variable?

I think it's designed to change, but I've never seen it as anything other than 45. That limit matches the limit north of the tunnel along Aurora Ave.

I've seen lower speed limits driving through it during afternoon rush hour (back in 2019), so yes, it does change. I think the lowest I saw them go was 30. They can also be used to alert of lane closures and hazards, similar to the other per-lane LED signs in the Seattle area. I actually happened to get pictures of this in action, shown below.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50736459998_2bfb0c8c44_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kipBVG)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50737302747_fa808847b3_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kitWrR)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50737195831_aec85da863_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kitoEt)

Nice catch!! I've never seen those signs displaying anything other than 45, even when traffic was crawling.

Looks like traffic was ignoring the overhead matrix displays. Did they finally merge when they caught up to whatever incident was blocking the left lane? I'm personally a fan of using the whole road, right up to an incident, so seeing these "lane closed" signs without anything in sight does bother me as it seems to be a waste of lane space.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: stevashe on December 31, 2020, 04:34:24 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 30, 2020, 04:11:01 AM
Nice catch!! I've never seen those signs displaying anything other than 45, even when traffic was crawling.

Looks like traffic was ignoring the overhead matrix displays. Did they finally merge when they caught up to whatever incident was blocking the left lane? I'm personally a fan of using the whole road, right up to an incident, so seeing these "lane closed" signs without anything in sight does bother me as it seems to be a waste of lane space.

If I recall correctly, that red X was the first one, so people were just starting to merge there. I don't think you could see the disable vehicle yet, but it was just out of sight around the bend. A few people did defiantly stay in the lane and race ahead though, only merging when they saw the obstructed lane.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: kkt on December 31, 2020, 05:07:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 30, 2020, 04:09:23 AM
Because the Ship Canal Bridge only has four lanes over it, and that is not up for replacement anytime soon. I-5 is five lanes south of downtown but only if you count HOV lanes. Five regular lanes would require total reconstruction of the bridge system south of downtown.

Maybe I didn't understand what you were trying to say.  At the Ship Canal Bridge, I-5 is four lanes each way plus four reversible express lanes.

Northbound I-5 drops down to two lanes past the Seneca Street exit.  Southbound isn't quite as bad.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: jakeroot on December 31, 2020, 05:31:57 PM
Quote from: kkt on December 31, 2020, 05:07:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 30, 2020, 04:09:23 AM
Because the Ship Canal Bridge only has four lanes over it, and that is not up for replacement anytime soon. I-5 is five lanes south of downtown but only if you count HOV lanes. Five regular lanes would require total reconstruction of the bridge system south of downtown.

Maybe I didn't understand what you were trying to say.  At the Ship Canal Bridge, I-5 is four lanes each way plus four reversible express lanes.

Northbound I-5 drops down to two lanes past the Seneca Street exit.  Southbound isn't quite as bad.

That's what I meant. I appreciate you clarifying. Anymore than four approach lanes to the bridge is pointless.
Title: Re: Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel
Post by: Plutonic Panda on October 14, 2022, 01:39:40 PM
Looks WsDOT is getting damages awarded for the tunnel delays.

https://wsdot.wa.gov/about/news/2022/damages-awarded-wsdot-tunnel-completion-delays

Maybe they can use that money for the street enhancement portion.