Oklahoma Alt. 412

[jnewkirk77]

Noticed back in April - sorry, just joined the forum! - that OK has re-signed the east end of the Cherokee Turnpike at 412.   Didn't have a camera with me, but "Scenic 412" is now signed as "Alt. 412."  I was somewhat surprised by this.

Anyone know why they did it?

[Scott5114]

First I've heard of this.

My guess is because "Scenic" isn't one of the officially approved banners, and because it could be confusing as to whether "Scenic 412" was its own designation or whether it is just an especially scenic segment of 412. (There is a nearby "Scenic 10" that is just a scenic part of SH-10.)

[US12]

I don't know for sure but maybe the signed it as ALT 412 because it is the free alternate route of the Cherokee Turnpike and the alternate designation may clear up some motorist confusion. Also most maps refer to it as ALT 412.

[NE2]

Good. AASHTO actually approved the Turnpike as Scenic 412, not the old road.

[US71]

Good. AASHTO actually approved the Turnpike as Scenic 412, not the old road.

They DID?    Do you have information regarding this? I daresay the turnpike isn't that "Scenic" to me. Just miles and miles of miles and miles.

Guess I need to investigate this change. 

[NE2]

Seems I'm slughtly misremembering - I can't find anything at all in the AASHTO reports from 1989 to 1994. Per http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/memorial/highways/pdfs/history/us412.pdf and http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/memorial/highways/pdfs/history/us412alt.pdf it looks like ODOT actually moved US 412 and redesignated the old route as US 412 Alt, but the links on http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/memorial/highways/htmls/us412.htm are broken. The state legislature defined the old alignment as US 412 Scenic:

U.S. Highway 412 from its new alignment west of the Locust Grove area east to Flint Creek shall be designated "Scenic U.S. Highway 412".  The Oklahoma Department of Transportation shall cause suitable permanent markers to be placed upon the highway bearing said name.

but ODOT misinterprets this on http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/memorial/htmls/lists.htm as being the Turnpike.

[Alps]

Is Scenic US 40 in Maryland officially US 40, officially Alt 40, Scenic 40, or not a US highway at all?

[US71]

Seems I'm slughtly misremembering - I can't find anything at all in the AASHTO reports from 1989 to 1994. Per http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/memorial/highways/pdfs/history/us412.pdf and http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/memorial/highways/pdfs/history/us412alt.pdf it looks like ODOT actually moved US 412 and redesignated the old route as US 412 Alt, but the links on http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/memorial/highways/htmls/us412.htm are broken. The state legislature defined the old alignment as US 412 Scenic:

U.S. Highway 412 from its new alignment west of the Locust Grove area east to Flint Creek shall be designated "Scenic U.S. Highway 412".  The Oklahoma Department of Transportation shall cause suitable permanent markers to be placed upon the highway bearing said name.

but ODOT misinterprets this on http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/memorial/htmls/lists.htm as being the Turnpike.

They got the wording messed up
Scenic U.S. Highway 412 Cherokee Turnpike
Mayes & Delaware County
From its new alignment west of the Locust Grove Area east to Flint Creek

If they had left off "Cherokee Turnpike", it would have been correct.
Still, I'll pop up there in the next couple days to see if "Scenic" is now "Alternate" along the whole route.

[NE2]

Is Scenic US 40 in Maryland officially US 40, officially Alt 40, Scenic 40, or not a US highway at all?

Scenic (the state calls it US 40SC; AASHTO's 1989 log recognizes it as 40 Scenic from east of Piney Grove to east of Pratt, 7 miles).

[jnewkirk77]

Seems I'm slughtly misremembering - I can't find anything at all in the AASHTO reports from 1989 to 1994. Per http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/memorial/highways/pdfs/history/us412.pdf and http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/memorial/highways/pdfs/history/us412alt.pdf it looks like ODOT actually moved US 412 and redesignated the old route as US 412 Alt, but the links on http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/memorial/highways/htmls/us412.htm are broken. The state legislature defined the old alignment as US 412 Scenic:

U.S. Highway 412 from its new alignment west of the Locust Grove area east to Flint Creek shall be designated "Scenic U.S. Highway 412".  The Oklahoma Department of Transportation shall cause suitable permanent markers to be placed upon the highway bearing said name.

but ODOT misinterprets this on http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/memorial/htmls/lists.htm as being the Turnpike.

They got the wording messed up
Scenic U.S. Highway 412 Cherokee Turnpike
Mayes & Delaware County
From its new alignment west of the Locust Grove Area east to Flint Creek

If they had left off "Cherokee Turnpike", it would have been correct.
Still, I'll pop up there in the next couple days to see if "Scenic" is now "Alternate" along the whole route.

I've only been on the stretch of "Alt. 412" from Kansas at U.S. 59/OK-10 to the end of the Turnpike (and east into AR), so I couldn't say if it's that way all the way westward.  Look forward to seeing what you find!

[US71]

Confirmed: Scenic 412 no longer exists. It has been replaced by 412 ALT.

I'll have more photos later, but independent signage is 412 ALT (with ALT below the route shield), exit signs are ALTERNATE 412





There are new gantry signs going up on 412 at the west end of the Cherokee Turnpike, as well as at US 69 near Choteau.

There is one SCENIC 412 sign left: it is just past the turnpike entrance east of Choteau.

As an aside, the railroad bridge near Choteau on old OK 33 over the MKT railroad is in bad shape (holes in the deck, damaged railing) and currently open to one lane traffic only (not that there's enough traffic to worry about )

[bugo]

Good. AASHTO actually approved the Turnpike as Scenic 412, not the old road.

They DID?    Do you have information regarding this? I daresay the turnpike isn't that "Scenic" to me. Just miles and miles of miles and miles.

I think it's quite scenic, but not as scenic as 59/412 just east of the end of the turnpike.

[Scott5114]

gross

[jnewkirk77]

Thanks for the pics! Not sure what they were thinking with the "ALT" placement at the intersection there , but hey, what's done is done.  I don't recall if the ones at the east end are Clearview or not, but yuck.  I've really grown to hate Clearview.

Confirmed: Scenic 412 no longer exists. It has been replaced by 412 ALT.

I'll have more photos later, but independent signage is 412 ALT (with ALT below the route shield), exit signs are ALTERNATE 412





There are new gantry signs going up on 412 at the west end of the Cherokee Turnpike, as well as at US 69 near Choteau.

There is one SCENIC 412 sign left: it is just past the turnpike entrance east of Choteau.

As an aside, the railroad bridge near Choteau on old OK 33 over the MKT railroad is in bad shape (holes in the deck, damaged railing) and currently open to one lane traffic only (not that there's enough traffic to worry about )

[US71]

Thanks for the pics! Not sure what they were thinking with the "ALT" placement at the intersection there , but hey, what's done is done.  I don't recall if the ones at the east end are Clearview or not, but yuck.  I've really grown to hate Clearview.

All exit signage along the turnpike is Clearview, including the approach signs at the east end.

My theory on the set-up is the sign crews were in too much of a hurry or didn't care. They probably should have moved the arrows further down on the post to make enough room for the signs, but chose not to.

[jnewkirk77]

They had to have been in a real rush  .  As I recall, the ones at Kansas (jct. 59/10 and Alt. 412) were assembled correctly.  I don't know exactly when those signs were put up, but it was before the first week of April, as that's when we drove through there.

[US71]

They had to have been in a real rush  .  As I recall, the ones at Kansas (jct. 59/10 and Alt. 412) were assembled correctly.  I don't know exactly when those signs were put up, but it was before the first week of April, as that's when we drove through there.

Next time I'm in the area, I'll look at different intersections. I only caught the signs at OK 82 since I came up through Vian and Tahlequah.

[Scott5114]

What's with that down arrow on the Siloam Springs sign??

[Desert Man]

Alternative means a route for those not using the turnpike (my guess) and I been down that road on a family visit to Oklahoma back in 2000, a scenic area indeed during the summer when it's all green, nice and sunny.

[US71]

What's with that down arrow on the Siloam Springs sign??

Kinda funny looking, isn't it?

[bugo]

Scenic/Alternate 412 is not really a viable alternative to the turnpike.  It is very curvy and hilly, and the speed limit is only 55 when it's 75 on the turnpike.  The turnpike is a good value and well worth it to bypass the dangerous Alternate 412.

[bugo]

Confirmed: Scenic 412 no longer exists. It has been replaced by 412 ALT.

I'll have more photos later, but independent signage is 412 ALT (with ALT below the route shield), exit signs are ALTERNATE 412

Here's the former signage:



Is this sign still there?

[US71]

Is this sign still there?

[yakra]

I read that as "Is Bugo still there?"
*rubs eyes* time for a cup o'Coffee.

[bugo]

Looks like they repainted the lines to where 412 Alternate is now a left exit off of mainline 412.  Previously, mainline 412 exited off itself.