Crosswalks

[agentsteel53]

the problem with the law is, how does one decide if the pedestrian is really intending to cross, or if that's the spot they just happen to be hanging out at?  This becomes especially problematic on a Saturday night, when pedestrians are, more often than not, just a little buzzed, having a good time, saying goodbye to some friends who are about to take a turn to head home in a different direction ... with the last thing on their mind being that the street corner they are standing on happens to contain a crosswalk four inches away.

I'm supposed to stop for them and wait out their farewells?

[donutbandit]

Back to the crosswalks. Yes, most states have a law that gives a pedestrian already in a crosswalk the right of way, and that's as it should be.

However, California's law is that if a pedestrian is waiting to cross, motor traffic must halt to allow it. That's way different.

In other words, a pedestrian waiting on the sidewalk to enter a crosswalk is the same as a red light. That's the part of it that peeves me.

I grew up in NC and VA, have lived here, in WV and Oregon, and I never heard of any such law in any of those states.

[mapman]

It's true that California law requires drivers to stop for pedestrians waiting to cross.  However, almost no one follows that law, so public agencies are constantly trying new and inventive ways to remind drivers of the law -- additional signing, overhead flashing beacons, lighted crosswalks, shorter crossing distances, and educational campaigns.  So far, it's not having much effect.   

[Terry Shea]

Back to the crosswalks. Yes, most states have a law that gives a pedestrian already in a crosswalk the right of way, and that's as it should be.

However, California's law is that if a pedestrian is waiting to cross, motor traffic must halt to allow it. That's way different.

In other words, a pedestrian waiting on the sidewalk to enter a crosswalk is the same as a red light. That's the part of it that peeves me.

I grew up in NC and VA, have lived here, in WV and Oregon, and I never heard of any such law in any of those states.

Uh, everyplace I know of has this law.  Anyplace that doesn't have it should have it, although I don't know of any place that doesn't have it.  It's a good law designed to keep pedestrians safe.  Hey, guess what?  You have to stop for school buses who have their red lights flashing in most areas too, even if the bus hasn't started unloading or loading yet.  Hey, guess what else?  You have to come to a full stop at a red light and remain stopped until the light turns green even though no traffic may be in sight.  Why would you have a problem with such a practical law?

[Terry Shea]

the problem with the law is, how does one decide if the pedestrian is really intending to cross, or if that's the spot they just happen to be hanging out at?  This becomes especially problematic on a Saturday night, when pedestrians are, more often than not, just a little buzzed, having a good time, saying goodbye to some friends who are about to take a turn to head home in a different direction ... with the last thing on their mind being that the street corner they are standing on happens to contain a crosswalk four inches away.

I'm supposed to stop for them and wait out their farewells?

No, you're supposed to run the bastards down for being "buzzed"  !  How dare they inconvenience you by making you have to stop.  Seriously, they usually put these crosswalks in areas where there is likely to be many people desiring to cross a rather busy street.  Without such a crosswalk and w/o such a law people would be tempted to take unnecessary chances to get across the street, particularly if they're buzzed!

[agentsteel53]

why should I stop when they are just hanging out on a street corner, talking to their friends?  they have their business, and I have mine.

[agentsteel53]

school buses that come out of nowhere and turn their red lights on are not exactly the solution either.  I once was crossing a boulevard intersection (about 6 lanes wide) on a green when a school bus turned its lights to red.  Of course I finished crossing - why should I stop in the middle of an intersection?

traffic laws should not be absolutes.  People should not be expected to drop to their knees and surrender when the light turns an unfavorable color.  That is why we have yellow lights, so that people have the ability to respond in a timely manner that preserves traffic flow.

[Hellfighter]

What crosswalks? We have too many jaywalkers here in the Detroit area.

[donutbandit]

In California, just the act of a pedestrian standing by a crosswalk means that all traffic must come to a halt, even though the pedestrian has not even entered the crosswalk?

School busses flash yellow lights before red. Red lights are preceeded by yellow.

In California, a pedestrian walking up to a crosswalk to cross flashes an immediate red to which traffic must stop. No yellow, no warning. They can step in front of traffic, get hit, and win the lawsuit. Tell me what other state has this law. I want to know.

[florida]

People in my area of the city do not know what a crosswalk is, unfortunately. We were coming home one night on FL 436, and there was a guy who got hit, laying in the middle of the road with some people who stopped; it was a hit and run. Now, if he had just walked a few more feet up to the traffic light, he would still be here with us today. My favorite is the parents who jaywalk with their children. That should be child endangerment and grounds for a citation or more; it's not right to teach your children to play Frogger unless it's on an Atari. But, I guess in their home country, it's commonplace to do this activity.

[Truvelo]

Here in the UK it is mandatory for traffic to stop if a pedestrian is waiting to cross at a crosswalk.

[Chris]

Yeah, in the Netherlands too, and I guess most of Europe. They're called "Zebra crossings" over here. 

[Terry Shea]

school buses that come out of nowhere and turn their red lights on are not exactly the solution either.  I once was crossing a boulevard intersection (about 6 lanes wide) on a green when a school bus turned its lights to red.  Of course I finished crossing - why should I stop in the middle of an intersection?

traffic laws should not be absolutes.  People should not be expected to drop to their knees and surrender when the light turns an unfavorable color.  That is why we have yellow lights, so that people have the ability to respond in a timely manner that preserves traffic flow.

Remind me to steer clear of California.  You and/or donutbandit may be out driving!    I don't what the law says in California, but in most states you're not required to stop for a school bus on the other side of a median.

[Terry Shea]

In California, just the act of a pedestrian standing by a crosswalk means that all traffic must come to a halt, even though the pedestrian has not even entered the crosswalk?

School busses flash yellow lights before red. Red lights are preceeded by yellow.

In California, a pedestrian walking up to a crosswalk to cross flashes an immediate red to which traffic must stop. No yellow, no warning. They can step in front of traffic, get hit, and win the lawsuit. Tell me what other state has this law. I want to know.

Every state I know of has this law.  Your crosswalks are well marked, are they not?  You see a marked crosswalk with people nearby, you slow down and prepare to yield.  If you see someone waiting to cross, you stop and wave them through.  No reasonable person is going to step in front of moving traffic hoping to get hit so (s)he can win a lawsuit.  Likewise, no reasonable person is going to fail to yield to pedestrians in or at the crosswalk.  Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a lot of reasonable people in California. And your analogies are wrong.  A person walking up to the crosswalk is the yellow light.  Don't be in such a hurry and don't be so inconsiderate of other people, not to mention the laws.

[Terry Shea]

why should I stop when they are just hanging out on a street corner, talking to their friends?  they have their business, and I have mine.

Why should they not throw rocks at your car?  For all they know you may be a terrorist or, worse yet, a politician!  They have their business and you have yours.  Seriously man, I don't how the state of California allows you to drive with such an attitude towards others.

[Terry Shea]

Back to the crosswalks. Yes, most states have a law that gives a pedestrian already in a crosswalk the right of way, and that's as it should be.

However, California's law is that if a pedestrian is waiting to cross, motor traffic must halt to allow it. That's way different.

In other words, a pedestrian waiting on the sidewalk to enter a crosswalk is the same as a red light. That's the part of it that peeves me.

Once again, it's not way different.  Every state either has this law or should have it if they don't.  Why would this peeve you?  What are pedestrians supposed to do, walk out and hope and pray that all the traffic stops?  That's why you're required to stop for someone waiting to cross-so that the pedestrians can cross safely w/o having to worry about whether traffic is going to stop or not.  But I guess it's more important for you to get to where you're going as quickly as you can than to be concerned about the safety of others.

I would imagine then that you're not too crazy about having to stop for emergency vehicles who have their lights flashing and sirens sounding, even if you're on the other side of the road, right? 

[Terry Shea]

My pet peeve is the stupid California pedestrian crosswalk law. If a pedestrian is standing at the entrance to a crosswalk, I have to bring my 3,000 pound vehicle to a screeching halt to allow them to cross. It's idiotic.

Where I work, there is a crosswalk across a very busy 4 lane street. In the 3 years I have been there, I have seen 2 peds hit and 3 rear end collisions where unattentive drivers plowed into the back of vehicles stopped for that crosswalk.

When I cross that street, I wait for a break, and jaywalk. I'm not going to hang myself out to dry in that crosswalk. What if I'm crossing in front of someone who's stopped and that vehicle gets rearended? What's going to happen to me then?

Good thinking!  Cross the street illegally where the road isn't marked and no one is prepared to stop rather than cross the street legally in a marked area where drivers should be prepared to stop.


Uh, how many times have you been hit and landed on your head?

[SSOWorld]

you know, a cop is going to cite a driver rather than a jaywalker so the driver is screwed either way

[Ian]

IMHO, it really bugs me that pedestrians think the car is going to stop, so they enter the crosswalk while the cars are still coming 

Ian

[agentsteel53]

honestly, when I'm pedestrianing, I just wait my turn in the cycle.  Then, I expect the cars to stop!  Until then, I expect them to go go go and not assume they are filled with politicians.

Now if you don't stop when your light is red ... then I may very well throw a rock at you!  To date, one of the funniest things I've ever seen is when a car ran a red and nearly hit a pedestrian.  It was a convertible.  She had a coffee...

[Michael]

If I'm waiting to cross, I enter the crosswalk just enough to see oncoming traffic.  If I'm driving, I stop if the person is crossing on my half, or I may just be nice and let them cross.  If traffic is stopped on the other side of the crosswalk, I stop early and let the person cross.

[Michael]

I don't what the law says in California, but in most states you're not required to stop for a school bus on the other side of a median.

In New York, you have to stop for a bus on the opposite side of a divided highway.  I've never had that happen yet, though.

[Alps]

[originally posted by Duke87]

...the problem is it's not always obvious that someone's looking to cross the street. They could just be standing there waiting for a bus, for their friend to show up, etc. They could only be looking to get into their car which is parked right there as opposed to actually crossing.

Besides, I'd argue that that law, if enforced and followed, might actually decrease overall safety. Because it gives drivers that much more to worry about. It's obvious that I'm going to stop for someone in the street because I can't just run them over. And they're directly in my line of vision. But, as I'm driving, I tend not to be focusing on the sidewalk too much. If I have to specifically check to make sure there's no one on the sidewalk waiting to cross, that means taking my eyes off the road to do it. Giving drivers a reason to take their eyes off the road is never a good thing.
Not to mention the absolute mess it would make of traffic to have drivers stopping all the time when if the pedestrian just waits for an opening, traffic can continue to flow much more smoothly.

And think about something else here: the car has a lot more mass and can't maneuver or stop as easily. So, really, making drivers stop and wait for there to be no pedestrians coming at a crosswalk is like making trains stop and wait for there to be no cars coming at a railroad crossing. It's just bassackwards. It doesn't work that way, it's simply not practical.

[vdeane]

Anyone who thinks that cars shouldn't have to stop for pedestrians waiting hasn't seen the entrance of Brighton High School on Winton Road.  It's nearly impossible to cross the entrance of the parking lot at the start and end of the day.  There is no traffic light for the entrance of a school where about half of the students are driven to school (either by themselves or their parents) on a major county road that should have four lanes but only has two (due to local opposition).  Most of the students/parents and sometimes even teachers just blaze on through (even though there is a stop line and marked crosswalk).  Most people go around via the back of the parking lot just to avoid it.  Very few use the crosswalk, and those that do must risk getting hit to avoid a 20 minute wait for the lot to clear.  Additionally, there is no way to get to the other side of the road; the nearest traffic light to the south (where most people need to go at this time) is five minutes away (walking).

[Terry Shea]

[originally posted by Duke87]

...the problem is it's not always obvious that someone's looking to cross the street. They could just be standing there waiting for a bus, for their friend to show up, etc. They could only be looking to get into their car which is parked right there as opposed to actually crossing.

Besides, I'd argue that that law, if enforced and followed, might actually decrease overall safety. Because it gives drivers that much more to worry about. It's obvious that I'm going to stop for someone in the street because I can't just run them over. And they're directly in my line of vision. But, as I'm driving, I tend not to be focusing on the sidewalk too much. If I have to specifically check to make sure there's no one on the sidewalk waiting to cross, that means taking my eyes off the road to do it. Giving drivers a reason to take their eyes off the road is never a good thing.
Not to mention the absolute mess it would make of traffic to have drivers stopping all the time when if the pedestrian just waits for an opening, traffic can continue to flow much more smoothly.

And think about something else here: the car has a lot more mass and can't maneuver or stop as easily. So, really, making drivers stop and wait for there to be no pedestrians coming at a crosswalk is like making trains stop and wait for there to be no cars coming at a railroad crossing. It's just bassackwards. It doesn't work that way, it's simply not practical.

Well if there is a bus stop and a crosswalk in the same location than that indeed is bad planning, if for no other reason the stopped bus may be blocking a drivers view of oncoming pedestrians.  I haven't witnessed such a setup around here, although many of the bus stops are right in front of an intersection which creates a host of other problems, especially if you have to turn right.

But putting that aside, every crosswalk I've seen is well marked and it should be obvious that anyone approaching the crosswalk may want to cross.  Why would you not slow down and be prepared to stop when approaching such a situation.  And it shouldn't be such a big deal to slow down and/or stop anyway because these crosswalks are typically on downtown city streets with a speed limit of 25 MPH. 

And please don't give me this tunnel vision bunk.  If your peripheral vision is so poor that you can't see a pedestrian entering a crosswalk while you're driving then you shouldn't be on the road.  You can't just stare straight ahead at the pavement in front of you.  You have to look for changing traffic signals, check your rearview mirror every so often and be alert to the conditions around you.

Again, the flow of traffic shouldn't be much of a factor.  We're talking about a downtown city street, not a rural freeway.  Traffic is already likely to be slow and congested since there are traffic lights at nearly every block and maximum speed limits of 25 MPH.

And thank you for bringing up the train analogy.  A railroad crossing is much like a crosswalk and may even have similar markings.  I'm assuming you stop for trains approaching the crossing, do you not?  Why would you not extend the same courtesy to pedestrians waiting to cross?