Still love your landline? Phone service providers are getting closer to phasing

[1995hoo]

Despite all of this, I still feel nostalgic about POTS lines and wish there were a way to keep them running forever.  The power systems inside telco central offices that keep the lines up and running are simply amazing.  Working around all of this equipment for the past 25+ years has certainly given me a different perspective than most of the general public.  Sure, those same power systems are used for all of the newer fiber optic equipment, which is also super reliable, but the old POTS equipment was simply built during a different time and built to last.

Oh yes. Unless you are dealing with "last mile" technology, the communications at the telco backends is all digital so that they can squeeze multiple conversations onto a single fiber link.

I'm also aware of Internet Fax services which allow you to send/receive faxes over the Internet. One such service has, for $84 per year, allows you to send/receive 200 pages per month with unlimited fax storage on their most basic plan.

This is me clearly not fully understanding the intricacies of faxing, but isn't an "internet fax" an email with an attachment?

From what I understand, that's a bit of an oversimplification. Suppose I had an e-fax number and I needed to deal with the IRS, which is one of the government agencies that is into faxes. If I needed to send them a fax, I could use my e-fax account and it would send it to their fax machine, where it prints out on paper. If they were to send me a fax (which they don't normally do), it would go to the e-fax server and then be e-mailed to me. At least, that's my understanding from someone I know who has used one of those services in the past. The time I did need to send a fax to the IRS, I went to the nearest UPS Store. While I had a fax machine at home (I no longer do), it was an inkjet, the ink had dried up, and it was cheaper to pay the UPS Store to send even a 30-page fax than it was to buy a new ink cartridge.

[MikieTimT]

This should only be for pre-existing copper customers, not those choosing to live offgrid somewhere remote.  They can connect on their own dime with Starlink or something comparable.

Why should there even be a distinction. I agree that people shouldn't be discriminated against based on where they are from, but freedom of movement is also important - someone who was born in and stayed in place X their whole lives should not be given government advantages over someone who was born in and/or stayed outside place X and now wants to move to place X .

Because most industries have the concept of "Grandfathering" where they slowly phase out services that long time customers rely on.  If someone relocates, unless it's within the same service area, by definition they cease to be a long time customer.  IP desk phones and mobile should suffice for nearly all use cases nowadays for residential usage.  I have business clients in the medical and legal industries that still have POTS lines to keep the fax portion of their copiers going, but eFax is used with much more regularity when dealing with other doctors offices or the IRS.  It's all due to inertia more than actual security nowadays.  A fax machine does not encrypt anything, rather just sends a TIFF file via an analog signal, which in all likelihood gets converted to digital and encrypted for some portion of transit before decryption and reconversion to analog, or just becomes an attachment in an email if eFaxing is what's actually used on the other end, so tell me how that's any better than an email sent SSL/TLS between the 2 email systems?

[kalvado]

This should only be for pre-existing copper customers, not those choosing to live offgrid somewhere remote.  They can connect on their own dime with Starlink or something comparable.

Why should there even be a distinction. I agree that people shouldn't be discriminated against based on where they are from, but freedom of movement is also important - someone who was born in and stayed in place X their whole lives should not be given government advantages over someone who was born in and/or stayed outside place X and now wants to move to place X .

Except for there is genuine society's interest in keeping certain businesses in remote areas. This includes agriculture, mining, logging, maintenance of long haul communication (rail, road, pipelines) etc.
Saying those people may just move and not provide them basic services isn't in anyone's interest.

[kphoger]

A LOT of businesses still use some form of hard-wired phones.

The vast majority of which are IP based...

For what it's worth, the company I work for does contract work for the phone company, and our office phones are all VoIP.  The mainline was converted to fiber a year or two ago, but the drop from there to the office is still coax, and each desk phone basically functions as a modem.  We haven't used traditional landline phone service here at the office in years.

(Actually...  hmmmmm...  I see now that we still have two active phone lines on an old four-port eMTA for some reason.  I just asked the owner of the company, and he doesn't know why, and nobody who would actually have the answer is in right now.  Maybe we need it for the security system, maybe it saves us money as part of a bundle, or who knows what.  Definitely going to ask about that.)

[ZLoth]

From Wired:

Landline Phone Owners Are Protesting AT&T's Plans to Drop Service
In California, AT&T is designated as the Carrier of Last Resort. The fight is on to keep it that way.

AT&T's application to end its landline phone obligations in California is drawing protest from residents as state officials consider whether to let AT&T off the hook.

AT&T filed an application to end its Carrier of Last Resort (COLR) obligation in March 2023. The first of several public hearings on the application is being held today by the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC), which is considering AT&T's request. An evidentiary hearing has been scheduled for April, and a proposed decision is expected in September.

AT&T has said it won't cut off phone service immediately, but ending the COLR obligation would make it easier for AT&T to drop its phone lines later on. AT&T's application said it would provide basic phone service in all areas for at least six months, and indefinitely in areas without any alternative voice service.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

[ZLoth]

Power blackouts.  If you have a plain old telephone it will get enough power to operate from the battery power at the exchange.  But your fiber to voice adapter needs grid power, and your cell phone needs a tower that has power to connect to.

It also comes down to costs and convenience. How much of a price premium are you willing to pay for that POTS service in comparison to VoIP as an addition to your Internet service? I can currently add VoIP phone service to my internet plan for $25 per month including "Unlimited nationwide calling within the U.S. and to Canada, Mexico, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, and the Northern Marianas", while an additional $10 per month gives you "Unlimited calling to over 50 countries including Canada and Mexico". Also, in August 2022, the FCC issued an order that no longer requires providers to offer landline service. I just tried searching for traditional landline service for my area... and failed.

[kphoger]

I just tried searching for traditional landline service for my area... and failed.

Your location says Richardson, TX.  Doesn't Spectrum offer home phone service there?

[mgk920]

I just tried searching for traditional landline service for my area... and failed.

Your location says Richardson, TX.  Doesn't Spectrum offer home phone service there?

I keep getting ads for bundled cable TV/internet/voice service from Spectrum, several mailings per week, but I have always had zero interest in signing up with them (How much $$$ have they wasted so far trying to get me to go with them???).   I don't even know if AT&T still offers new 'legacy' landline service here (Appleton, WI) , but their rate pricing in recent years points to them actively trying to get out of that business.

Mike

[bing101]

From Wired:

Landline Phone Owners Are Protesting AT&T's Plans to Drop Service
In California, AT&T is designated as the Carrier of Last Resort. The fight is on to keep it that way.

AT&T's application to end its landline phone obligations in California is drawing protest from residents as state officials consider whether to let AT&T off the hook.

AT&T filed an application to end its Carrier of Last Resort (COLR) obligation in March 2023. The first of several public hearings on the application is being held today by the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC), which is considering AT&T's request. An evidentiary hearing has been scheduled for April, and a proposed decision is expected in September.

AT&T has said it won't cut off phone service immediately, but ending the COLR obligation would make it easier for AT&T to drop its phone lines later on. AT&T's application said it would provide basic phone service in all areas for at least six months, and indefinitely in areas without any alternative voice service.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

Yes the article says rural areas are affected by this landline POTS issue. However in California we have Comcast, Charter, Cox, Verizon and T-Mobile step in as alternatives but they are not affected by the Carrier of Last Resort issue like AT&T is dealing with.

[ZLoth]

I just tried searching for traditional landline service for my area... and failed.

Your location says Richardson, TX.  Doesn't Spectrum offer home phone service there?

As I stated, "traditional" landline service aka POTS which is a line from my home to the switching office. Spectrum does offer Internet and Mobile phone service, but not VoIP service. Also, their gigabit service only offers gigabit download, not upload. That's important when you upload backups while you are sleeping. That's one of the reasons I switched from Spectrum to AT&T Internet, the other is that AT&T Fiber was cheaper.

[MikeTheActuary]

Yes, I'm late to this tangent....

I mean, if people can explain how to e-fax things, they can explain encrypted email.

The problem with encrypted email is that you either have to exchange keys (assuming compatible email programs), or you're left with the recipient being asked to click a link, opening the door to the email being intercepted and there not being enough security around who can access the material OR your link being confused with phishing/spam.

An eFax mostly Just Works.  You still have to know how to send it, but on the recipient's side...it's uniform-to-them and set up however their tech folks have set it up.

I keep an eFax account live mostly for medical and insurance purposes, although as my/my wife's doctors have mostly moved to MyChart, and the last couple of interactions I've had with insurance have offered their own secure sites to upload communications/documents to, I think even eFax's days are numbered.

[SP Cook]

Two things are clear to me.

- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.

- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.

[kalvado]

Two things are clear to me.

- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.

- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.

One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.
Correct approach is, of course, not trying to maintain ancient things but consider how new technology can work. Which possibly may include installation of towers on high points in the area. Communities getting heart attack from such an assault on the scenic view should be allowed to pay full maintenance price for copper lines.

[jeffandnicole]

Two things are clear to me.

- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.

- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.

One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.

Enlighten us on which 'rich countries' still string copper wiring around.

[kalvado]

Two things are clear to me.

- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.

- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.

One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.

Enlighten us on which 'rich countries' still string copper wiring around.

USA in 70s and 80s, for example.

[jeffandnicole]

Two things are clear to me.

- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.

- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.

One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.

Enlighten us on which 'rich countries' still string copper wiring around.

USA in 70s and 80s, for example.

So, the technology of the time. 

[Duke87]

Some financial and legal firms won't accept documents via email due to it being not secure enough (or it could be inertia). Several times I've had to use an "internet fax service" to "fax" what should be an email attachment of a PDF to another Fax recipient.

Encrypted email no good either?

It's generally allowed, but some places have not invested in setting it up. Most likely because they don't want to spend money on a new system that most of their customers probably don't know how to use. And it just makes messes if a customer sends something via unencrypted email that they're not supposed to. Requiring they fax it prevents such mistakes.


As far as ripping out telephone lines, it is worth noting that this does not mean no more landlines, it just means you need to switch to VoIP. The drawback of this, as others have pointed out, is that service uptime takes a hit because a VoIP phone won't still work during a power outage unless you have a local source of backup power. But, pragmatically speaking, it's not really worth the expense of maintaining a redundant legacy system that the most people already don't use anymore anyway just for that marginal benefit.

[vdeane]

As far as ripping out telephone lines, it is worth noting that this does not mean no more landlines, it just means you need to switch to VoIP. The drawback of this, as others have pointed out, is that service uptime takes a hit because a VoIP phone won't still work during a power outage unless you have a local source of backup power. But, pragmatically speaking, it's not really worth the expense of maintaining a redundant legacy system that the most people already don't use anymore anyway just for that marginal benefit.

Especially if said benefit is probably oversold these days.  If the utility pole carrying your electricity and phone service goes down, the landline won't save you.  If the phone network has been replaced with fiber for everything but the "last mile" and the converter doesn't have backup power, the landline won't save you.  The circumstances in which the power would be out but the POTS phone would still work feels increasingly niche.

[kalvado]

Two things are clear to me.

- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.

- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.

One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.

Enlighten us on which 'rich countries' still string copper wiring around.

USA in 70s and 80s, for example.

So, the technology of the time.

No. Combination of labor efficiency, regulatiory climate, availability of resources
Same as electric connections went from <10% in 1900 to about 70% in 1930 and sub-100% by 1955. It was a novel technology, it required expensive equipment and manual installation. Yet it happened
Today fiber installation is not limited by endpoint equipment - it's manual labor to install it which became unaffordable. Along with regulatory costs.

[jeffandnicole]

At my wife's shop, we switched from a traditional landline to a VoIP service several years ago, due to increasing issues with the outside wiring.  However, turns out she was at the 'end of the line' for the VoIP service from its hub, and it was constantly cutting out, preventing her from making or receiving any phone calls.  For her business which relies on reservations, this was not acceptable.  The numerous repairmen we had come to the shop all agreed this wasn't the appropriate connection for her.  We switched back to the landline (which was a nightmare in itself due to numerous issues with Verizon, although in the long run they did compensate us for it). 

There's still issues with the landline, especially with static during/after a rain.  And it turns out, many of Verizon's repairmen don't know didley about working on landline wiring.  We've made enough phone calls, and had enough guys come out, that we've found one guy that works weekends in our area that knows his shit and knows the issue.  We purposely time our service appointment to try to get him.  He's a little limited on what really needs to be done due to Verizon not really wanting to service landline wiring anymore, but he can get the issue resolved for several months before the problem starts up again.

No. Combination of labor efficiency, regulatiory climate, availability of resources
Same as electric connections went from <10% in 1900 to about 70% in 1930 and sub-100% by 1955. It was a novel technology, it required expensive equipment and manual installation. Yet it happened
Today fiber installation is not limited by endpoint equipment - it's manual labor to install it which became unaffordable. Along with regulatory costs.

You're confusing 'unaffordable' with 'unprofitable'.

[kalvado]

No. Combination of labor efficiency, regulatiory climate, availability of resources
Same as electric connections went from <10% in 1900 to about 70% in 1930 and sub-100% by 1955. It was a novel technology, it required expensive equipment and manual installation. Yet it happened
Today fiber installation is not limited by endpoint equipment - it's manual labor to install it which became unaffordable. Along with regulatory costs.

You're confusing 'unaffordable' with 'unprofitable'.

Well, if customers cannot afford the price of infrastructure neither via rates nor taxes , it is unaffordable.

[JREwing78]

One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.

I call BS. The US is a rich country that invests its money in feeding the war machine and enriching the folks who are already rich.  Everything else, including food, education, and infrastructure, is done as cheap as possible, charging as much as possible for it, without inspiring the populace to stage a bloody coup.

AT&T isn't exactly honoring its "Carrier of Last Resort" obligations, as one example. Before their electric co-op got grants to run fiber-optic internet to their home, my parents' only phone option was POTS from AT&T. It was unusable about 50% of the time due to AT&T's lack of maintenance. They routinely got back 1/2 to 3/4 of their phone bill from AT&T for this state (instead of actually fixing it properly).

Once the co-op built out and lit its fiber network, my folks went from well over $200/mo in phone and internet charges to $100/mo with far superior service. It's been 3 or 4 years now with only one notable outage in that time. Needless to say, everyone on their street switched to the new service and AT&T now serves nobody there.

[kalvado]

One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.

I call BS. The US is a rich country that invests its money in feeding the war machine and enriching the folks who are already rich.  Everything else, including food, education, and infrastructure, is done as cheap as possible, charging as much as possible for it, without inspiring the populace to stage a bloody coup.

AT&T isn't exactly honoring its "Carrier of Last Resort" obligations, as one example. Before their electric co-op got grants to run fiber-optic internet to their home, my parents' only phone option was POTS from AT&T. It was unusable about 50% of the time due to AT&T's lack of maintenance. They routinely got back 1/2 to 3/4 of their phone bill from AT&T for this state (instead of actually fixing it properly).

Once the co-op built out and lit its fiber network, my folks went from well over $200/mo in phone and internet charges to $100/mo with far superior service. It's been 3 or 4 years now with only one notable outage in that time. Needless to say, everyone on their street switched to the new service and AT&T now serves nobody there.

Just curious, who ended up paying for fiber work?
I hear a few of similar stories, and there are different ways to cover those costs, rates are not part of the list.

[JREwing78]

Just curious, who ended up paying for fiber work?
I hear a few of similar stories, and there are different ways to cover those costs, rates are not part of the list.

Government grants. The co-op was created when the Rural Electrification Act was enacted to service areas that had not yet received electrical power, funding low-interest loans to help fund the build-out. In the late 2010s, they received grants to run a fiber build-out along its electric delivery footprint.

[kalvado]

Just curious, who ended up paying for fiber work?
I hear a few of similar stories, and there are different ways to cover those costs, rates are not part of the list.

Government grants. The co-op was created when the Rural Electrification Act was enacted to service areas that had not yet received electrical power, funding low-interest loans to help fund the build-out. In the late 2010s, they received grants to run a fiber build-out along its electric delivery footprint.

Which basically means a small area got commercially unviable product. Which is what the government should do, honestly speaking, but asking companies to fund that would be inefficient. Exactly as you described with copper lines. I wonder how the maintenance would be funded...
And if everyone in need of fiber would ask for a grant, that will quickly deplete available funds.