With the planned Gateway Freeway (SR 24), I-10 Reliever (SR 30), and the Pinal North-South Freeway (which would probably be numbered as an extension of SR 88) unfunded, does anyone think any of these three freeways could be built as toll roads?
Of the three I would probably say the Pinal North-South Freeway has the greatest chance of being built as a toll road due to lack of quick alternate routes. The Gateway Freeway is IMO the least likely to get tolls due to its short length, thus many would probably use the US 60 Superstition Freeway as a shunpike.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on August 17, 2015, 03:23:45 PM
With the planned Gateway Freeway (SR 24), I-10 Reliever (SR 30), and the Pinal North-South Freeway (which would probably be numbered as an extension of SR 88) unfunded, does anyone think any of these three freeways could be built as toll roads?
Of the three I would probably say the Pinal North-South Freeway has the greatest chance of being built as a toll road due to lack of quick alternate routes. The Gateway Freeway is IMO the least likely to get tolls due to its short length, thus many would probably use the US 60 Superstition Freeway as a shunpike.
I-11 could be tolled through Phoenix, but these other projects - not so much. There are a ton of shunpikes to these routes, and AZ 30 is surely not gonna be tolled, cause that is I-10's reliever....
Pinal North-South Freeway is pretty useless cause you can use I-8 to completely bypass Phoenix...
I have never really imagined Phoenix as a good enviroment for tolled roads. regardless, I second that AZ 30 would not be tolled as it is a reliever route of a major freeway. Is the Pinal N-S Freeway numbered, or is it, just that? That's probably, most likely, as it not important enough to justify being numbered. The Gateway might also be tolled, as more people go the entire length of a short highway, but not as many go the length of a long one.
Quote from: noelbotevera on August 17, 2015, 04:50:53 PM
Pinal North-South Freeway is pretty useless cause you can use I-8 to completely bypass Phoenix...
How would I-8 be used as an alternate? The Pinal North-South Freeway would serve as a corridor between Apache Junction and Eloy/Picacho. I-8 isn't even close to this route.
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 17, 2015, 06:04:11 PM
I have never really imagined Phoenix as a good enviroment for tolled roads. regardless, I second that AZ 30 would not be tolled as it is a reliever route of a major freeway. Is the Pinal N-S Freeway numbered, or is it, just that? That's probably, most likely, as it not important enough to justify being numbered. The Gateway might also be tolled, as more people go the entire length of a short highway, but not as many go the length of a long one.
No number currently assigned, however, if it connects to SR 88 in Apache Junction it would probably be numbered as an extension of SR 88.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on August 17, 2015, 06:40:18 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on August 17, 2015, 04:50:53 PM
Pinal North-South Freeway is pretty useless cause you can use I-8 to completely bypass Phoenix...
How would I-8 be used as an alternate? The Pinal North-South Freeway would serve as a corridor between Apache Junction and Eloy/Picacho. I-8 isn't even close to this route.
The Phoenix Bypass route - you can bypass Phoenix with little traffic, so I don't see the point of the Pinal N-S Fwy.
Quote from: noelbotevera on August 17, 2015, 09:01:01 PM
The Phoenix Bypass route - you can bypass Phoenix with little traffic, so I don't see the point of the Pinal N-S Fwy.
The point of the Pinal North-South freeway isn't to bypass Phoenix. It is to provide mobility within Pinal county and connect Pinal county communities with the Phoenix/Mesa area.
Quote from: blanketcomputer on August 17, 2015, 11:44:11 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on August 17, 2015, 09:01:01 PM
The Phoenix Bypass route - you can bypass Phoenix with little traffic, so I don't see the point of the Pinal N-S Fwy.
The point of the Pinal North-South freeway isn't to bypass Phoenix. It is to provide mobility within Pinal county and connect Pinal county communities with the Phoenix/Mesa area.
From a July 2007 ASU study, I think Pinal County is on the verge of becoming its own metropolitan area. (Yes, I know this report is dated and was done before the Great Recession, which calls into question some of the population and growth assumptions made in the report.)
http://www.asu.edu/copp/morrison/PinalReport.pdf
QuoteWill Pinal become a distinguishable destination or simply a
McMega drive through? If Pinal rises to the occasion, the
result can be a vibrant, sustainable, and competitive place
that takes advantage of its location. If Pinal fails to choose
wisely, its bedroom community future is already visible in the
East Valley and subdivisions north of Tucson. As The Future at
Pinal shows, there is interest in large-scale choices for unique
places. However, the outcomes Pinal wants will not become
realities without a sense of urgency, as well as investments of
time, energy, and dollars. In this case, good things will not
come to those who wait. Good things will come to those who
choose, plan, and act.
Those new freeways passing through Pinal would serve the new development likely to occur there in the next several decades of growth, assuming a continuing demand for housing in the desert and water sources are identified.
Here's the identified Pinal transportation list:
Quote
PINAL HAS $3.1 BILLION IN JUST A FEW SELECTED HIGH PRIORITY TRANSPORTATION PROJECTS
Roadway - Cost (in millions)
Construct North/South Freeway - $1,640
Construct Williams Gateway Freeway - $750
Improve S.R. 238 (Maricopa-Casa Grande Highway) - $187
Construct U.S. 60 Reroute Project - $117
Improve U.S. 60 (Ray Road to Florence Junction) - $88
Improve Val Vista Road (I-10 to S.R. 238) - $61
Improve S.R. 79 (Florence Junction to Florence) - $60
Improve S.R. 287 (S.R. 87 to S.R. 79) - $56
Improve Thorton Road (I-8 to S.R. 238) - $51
Improve Park Link Drive (I-10 to S.R. 79) - $42
Improve S.R. 87 (S.R. 387 to S.R. 287) - $38
Improve Hunt Highway (County Line to Arizona Farms Road) - $20
The only roads I have ever heard about being built as toll roads in Arizona have been parts of future I-11 and the Loop 202 South Mountain section. Realistically, I see express toll lanes or HOT lanes being built along parts of I-10, I-17 and other routes that have existing HOV lanes before an actual toll road is built.
HOT Lanes and Express Toll Lanes are likely the only toll roads that will ever penetrate the Phoenix area. Perhaps that's all that's needed, although I've never been anywhere near Phoenix.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 18, 2015, 03:17:41 PM
HOT Lanes and Express Toll Lanes are likely the only toll roads that will ever penetrate the Phoenix area. Perhaps that's all that's needed, although I've never been anywhere near Phoenix.
Phoenix, just does not seem like an area where turnpike-style tolling would fit well, to me. Unlike, say, Pennsylvania or Massachusetts, Arizona does not have the kind of
long-distance traffic to support, but it has the commuting traffic to suit HOT lanes/Express Toll Lanes. :-/
Maricopa County has twice passed sales tax measures specifically to fund transportation. I find it highly unlikely that any tollways would be built within the county because voters wouldn't want to add a separate funding mechanism on top of what they're already paying. Pinal County has its own sales tax dedicated to transportation, but as far as I can find in a few minutes of searching that money goes solely to city and county road projects, where Maricopa passes a good chunk of their money back to ADOT to fund freeway construction. Pinal may decide to do the same as population and revenues grow, but they've still got a lot of rural roads that will need improvement to support that new population, so no guarantees.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 18, 2015, 02:05:10 PM
The only roads I have ever heard about being built as toll roads in Arizona have been parts of future I-11 and the Loop 202 South Mountain section. Realistically, I see express toll lanes or HOT lanes being built along parts of I-10, I-17 and other routes that have existing HOV lanes before an actual toll road is built.
The South Mountain Freeway will not be tolled since there is already funding in place for the selected alignment.
This reminds me, on April 1, 2008, there was an April Fool's joke on KTAR stating that three of the Phoenix area freeways became toll roads overnight to help balance the state's budget. The kicker was the prices of the tolls: $1.01 for Loop 101, $2.02 for Loop 202, and $0.51 for SR 51. The joke said the everyone would be required to have exact change, or ADOT would make them turn around.
We've always paid extra sales tax to fund roads and other things.
I can't see toll roads here anytime soon.
The Prop. 400 sales tax expires in 2025 unless voters extend it. If that revenue disappears, that is the only time I can see toll roads becoming an option in the valley.
Quote from: blanketcomputer on August 19, 2015, 10:08:29 PM
The Prop. 400 sales tax expires in 2025 unless voters extend it. If that revenue disappears, that is the only time I can see toll roads becoming an option in the valley.
In a word, no. They won't have to worry about that for the next ten years.
Quote from: Henry on August 27, 2015, 12:04:20 PM
In a word, no. They won't have to worry about that for the next ten years.
In addition, ever since ADOT took full control of the state's logo sign program in 2012 from Arizona Logo Sign Group (a subsidiary of Logo Signs of America, Inc.), the revenue collected from the logo sign rents now goes towards building and maintaining roads. Prior to 2012 when Arizona Logo Sign Group had the state's logo sign contract, ADOT did not receive any revenue from the program.
Also, now that logo signs are being installed in urban areas, that boosts ADOT's revenue even further, since there are many businesses competing to be on logo signs in urban areas and the rates are higher than in the rural areas.
I know you've talked about the costs elsewhere, but I'm too lazy to try and find it. Is the revenue generated from the sign program meaningful compared to the costs of highway construction and maintenance? I can't imagine there's all that much left after they pay for fabricating, installing, and maintaining the signs plus paying the salary of the person responsible for administering the program, especially when construction projects reach into the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars.
Quote from: dfwmapper on August 29, 2015, 11:47:53 PM
I know you've talked about the costs elsewhere, but I'm too lazy to try and find it. Is the revenue generated from the sign program meaningful compared to the costs of highway construction and maintenance? I can't imagine there's all that much left after they pay for fabricating, installing, and maintaining the signs plus paying the salary of the person responsible for administering the program, especially when construction projects reach into the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars.
One of the entire reasons why ADOT decided to bring the logo sign program in-house when Arizona Logo Sign Group's contract was coming up for renewal was due to a budget shortfall, thus ADOT wanted an additional source of revenue to help offset its budget shortfall. After bringing the logo program in-house, ADOT decided to expand the program into urban areas to further increase revenue.
Like I mentioned earlier, HOT lanes have been proposed as one of many options to improve the I-10 (Maricopa) /I-17 corridor, stretching from I-17/Loop 101 (North Stack) to I-10/Loop 202 (Pecos Stack). A couple links:
https://www.azmag.gov/Projects/Project.asp?CMSID2=6898
http://www.azmag.gov/Documents/SPINE_2015-02-25_Spine-Study-Public-Information-Meeting-Presentation-Banners.pdf Look near the end of the PDF file for the HOT/HOV mention.
Sorry to bump, but I found out that the Pinal North-South Freeway is in fact being considered as a candidate to be built via a public-private partnership as a potential toll road. After all, Proposition 400 (the tax Maricopa County residents pay to fund freeways and mass transit) does not cover Pinal County, thus alternative sources of funding would be needed to build it.
From what I read though, Florence and Coolidge seem to be in disagreement with each other over the issue of tolls. While Florence has stated they would support it being built as a toll road, Coolidge is against the idea.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on August 31, 2015, 11:48:13 AM
Quote from: dfwmapper on August 29, 2015, 11:47:53 PM
I know you've talked about the costs elsewhere, but I'm too lazy to try and find it. Is the revenue generated from the sign program meaningful compared to the costs of highway construction and maintenance? I can't imagine there's all that much left after they pay for fabricating, installing, and maintaining the signs plus paying the salary of the person responsible for administering the program, especially when construction projects reach into the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars.
One of the entire reasons why ADOT decided to bring the logo sign program in-house when Arizona Logo Sign Group's contract was coming up for renewal was due to a budget shortfall, thus ADOT wanted an additional source of revenue to help offset its budget shortfall. After bringing the logo program in-house, ADOT decided to expand the program into urban areas to further increase revenue.
And how much does this revenue source bring in?
If tolling helps get the yet-to-be-built freeways get constructed, I say "Go For It!"
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 20, 2016, 04:38:11 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on August 31, 2015, 11:48:13 AM
Quote from: dfwmapper on August 29, 2015, 11:47:53 PM
I know you've talked about the costs elsewhere, but I'm too lazy to try and find it. Is the revenue generated from the sign program meaningful compared to the costs of highway construction and maintenance? I can't imagine there's all that much left after they pay for fabricating, installing, and maintaining the signs plus paying the salary of the person responsible for administering the program, especially when construction projects reach into the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars.
One of the entire reasons why ADOT decided to bring the logo sign program in-house when Arizona Logo Sign Group's contract was coming up for renewal was due to a budget shortfall, thus ADOT wanted an additional source of revenue to help offset its budget shortfall. After bringing the logo program in-house, ADOT decided to expand the program into urban areas to further increase revenue.
And how much does this revenue source bring in?
With the urban program now in place and buildout nearly complete (except for a few remaining portions of Loop 303 and any unbuilt freeways including the Loop 202 South Mountain Freeway), the program on average now brings in $6M-$10M in annual revenue. Since this program is operated in-house, ADOT receives 100% of the revenue.
Saw this article today- although I don't have the subscription to read all of it said the SR 30 now is being planned as a toll road-
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2016/09/27/exclusive-adot-ready-to-start-planning-first-az.html
Quote from: kdk on September 27, 2016, 03:15:14 PM
Saw this article today- although I don't have the subscription to read all of it said the SR 30 now is being planned as a toll road-
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2016/09/27/exclusive-adot-ready-to-start-planning-first-az.html
Now that seems like a stupid idea. People will just use I-10 to avoid the toll. Maybe ADOT will lower the speed limit on I-10 to 55 mph to get people off I-10 and onto SR 30.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 27, 2016, 04:59:01 PM
Quote from: kdk on September 27, 2016, 03:15:14 PM
Saw this article today- although I don't have the subscription to read all of it said the SR 30 now is being planned as a toll road-
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2016/09/27/exclusive-adot-ready-to-start-planning-first-az.html
Now that seems like a stupid idea. People will just use I-10 to avoid the toll. Maybe ADOT will lower the speed limit on I-10 to 55 mph to get people off I-10 and onto SR 30.
...or just make the speed limit on the toll road 80 or 85?
I seriously oppose any toll road in Arizona* that doesn't provide some added perks for drivers like a higher than normal speed limit or something else that I can't think of at the moment. Heck, even an 85 mph limit isn't a guarantee that enough paying drivers will use a road so that it can start paying itself off once it's open. As far as I'm concerned, I-10 in the west valley isn't congested enough(and wont be for some time, IMO) for drivers to be willing to use a parallel toll road, a concept foreign to most in the valley
*Unless there's absolutely no other possible way to fund it.
Quote from: pumpkineater2 on September 27, 2016, 06:38:42 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 27, 2016, 04:59:01 PM
Quote from: kdk on September 27, 2016, 03:15:14 PM
Saw this article today- although I don't have the subscription to read all of it said the SR 30 now is being planned as a toll road-
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2016/09/27/exclusive-adot-ready-to-start-planning-first-az.html
Now that seems like a stupid idea. People will just use I-10 to avoid the toll. Maybe ADOT will lower the speed limit on I-10 to 55 mph to get people off I-10 and onto SR 30.
...or just make the speed limit on the toll road 80 or 85?
I seriously oppose any toll road in Arizona* that doesn't provide some added perks for drivers like a higher than normal speed limit or something else that I can't think of at the moment. Heck, even an 85 mph limit isn't a guarantee that enough paying drivers will use a road so that it can start paying itself off once it's open. As far as I'm concerned, I-10 in the west valley isn't congested enough(and wont be for some time, IMO) for drivers to be willing to use a parallel toll road, a concept foreign to most in the valley
*Unless there's absolutely no other possible way to fund it.
And to get any highway in the state to have an 80 or 85 mph speed limit would require the state to raise its criminal speeding threshold, which states that speeds above 85 mph on any highway (regardless of the posted speed limit) is considered a criminal offense. This law has killed past attempts to raise the state's maximum speed limit above 75.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 27, 2016, 06:51:53 PM
Quote from: pumpkineater2 on September 27, 2016, 06:38:42 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 27, 2016, 04:59:01 PM
Quote from: kdk on September 27, 2016, 03:15:14 PM
Saw this article today- although I don't have the subscription to read all of it said the SR 30 now is being planned as a toll road-
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2016/09/27/exclusive-adot-ready-to-start-planning-first-az.html
Now that seems like a stupid idea. People will just use I-10 to avoid the toll. Maybe ADOT will lower the speed limit on I-10 to 55 mph to get people off I-10 and onto SR 30.
...or just make the speed limit on the toll road 80 or 85?
I seriously oppose any toll road in Arizona* that doesn't provide some added perks for drivers like a higher than normal speed limit or something else that I can't think of at the moment. Heck, even an 85 mph limit isn't a guarantee that enough paying drivers will use a road so that it can start paying itself off once it's open. As far as I'm concerned, I-10 in the west valley isn't congested enough(and wont be for some time, IMO) for drivers to be willing to use a parallel toll road, a concept foreign to most in the valley
*Unless there's absolutely no other possible way to fund it.
And to get any highway in the state to have an 80 or 85 mph speed limit would require the state to raise its criminal speeding threshold, which states that speeds above 85 mph on any highway (regardless of the posted speed limit) is considered a criminal offense. This law has killed past attempts to raise the state's maximum speed limit above 75.
I didn't know that- I always thought it was 20 mph over the posted limit only, but you are correct. I'm surprised there hasn't been any push to update that in the legislature.
Quote from: kdk on September 28, 2016, 04:13:14 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 27, 2016, 06:51:53 PM
Quote from: pumpkineater2 on September 27, 2016, 06:38:42 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 27, 2016, 04:59:01 PM
Quote from: kdk on September 27, 2016, 03:15:14 PM
Saw this article today- although I don't have the subscription to read all of it said the SR 30 now is being planned as a toll road-
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2016/09/27/exclusive-adot-ready-to-start-planning-first-az.html
Now that seems like a stupid idea. People will just use I-10 to avoid the toll. Maybe ADOT will lower the speed limit on I-10 to 55 mph to get people off I-10 and onto SR 30.
...or just make the speed limit on the toll road 80 or 85?
I seriously oppose any toll road in Arizona* that doesn't provide some added perks for drivers like a higher than normal speed limit or something else that I can't think of at the moment. Heck, even an 85 mph limit isn't a guarantee that enough paying drivers will use a road so that it can start paying itself off once it's open. As far as I'm concerned, I-10 in the west valley isn't congested enough(and wont be for some time, IMO) for drivers to be willing to use a parallel toll road, a concept foreign to most in the valley
*Unless there's absolutely no other possible way to fund it.
And to get any highway in the state to have an 80 or 85 mph speed limit would require the state to raise its criminal speeding threshold, which states that speeds above 85 mph on any highway (regardless of the posted speed limit) is considered a criminal offense. This law has killed past attempts to raise the state's maximum speed limit above 75.
I didn't know that- I always thought it was 20 mph over the posted limit only, but you are correct. I'm surprised there hasn't been any push to update that in the legislature.
There was a bill in the 2000s that would have increased the maximum speed limit to 80 and the criminal threshold to 90, but that bill eventually died. Apparently raising that criminal threshold is a tough sell to our state's politicians.
Here is a non-paywalled article about the subject of tolls:
http://kjzz.org/content/373322/adot-considers-toll-road-state-route-30
The study will take 6 months.
Also, it looks like ADOT completed the study for the Pinal North-South Corridor and it was found for tolls to be not feasible. Probably due to Coolidge's opposition. If tolls are not feasible for the Pinal North-South Corridor, what makes ADOT think tolls would be feasible for SR 30?
Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 30, 2016, 11:10:49 AM
Also, it looks like ADOT completed the study for the Pinal North-South Corridor and it was found for tolls to be not feasible. Probably due to Coolidge's opposition. If tolls are not feasible for the Pinal North-South Corridor, what makes ADOT think tolls would be feasible for SR 30?
I think you answered your own question there. Coolidge doesn't want it because the people who live there like living in a small town far away from the cities and don't want that changed. SR 30 will serve primarily suburban traffic that wants to have better connections to the city.
Here is a potential shield for an SR 30 toll road:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Forig02.deviantart.net%2F09f2%2Ff%2F2016%2F279%2F8%2F1%2Farizona_state_route_30_toll_road_by_pinkjazzx-dak31d4.png&hash=bce69e890c07ab7395b9a357ae3db559e4c17343)
The yellow color was chosen to make the shield easily identifiable, and at the top of the shield the "ARIZONA" text is replaced by "TOLL" similar to "LOOP" replaces "ARIZONA" on the 101, 202, and 303.
85 mph on an Arizona interstate is reckless? That's insanely low, especially for a western state like Arizona. 96+ would seem more appropriate.
Quote from: US 41 on October 05, 2016, 01:35:59 PM
85 mph on an Arizona interstate is reckless? That's insanely low, especially for a western state like Arizona. 96+ would seem more appropriate.
What is strange is that very few people (even-in-staters) seem to be aware of it, unlike Virginia where even out-of-staters (especially in neighboring states) are aware of their equivalent law. I wonder if there is a significant difference in enforcement rates between the two states. It would be interesting to know what are the 85th percentile speeds on Arizona's rural Interstates.
Well I know that in Texas on US 90 and on US 385 I sometimes drove up to 90 mph. 90 mph is not reckless in Texas and I imagine that a lot of Arizona is probably pretty similar to western Texas. I think in Indiana reckless driving is 25+ over the speed limit (or 90 mph), which seems reasonable. But getting pulled over on I-10 in Arizona for going 86 in a 75, and that being considered reckless driving driving seems very outrageous.
Yeah, if you set your cruise control at 75 on any of Arizona's rural interstates, you are one of the slow pokes and you'll get passed by pretty much everyone except for trucks and old people.
On a side note, I used to think that I-17 was an exception where speed limits shouldn't be raised to 80 (and some parts of it shouldn't) but I've come to realize that 80 is quite a reasonable speed for most of it.
Quote from: pumpkineater2 on October 06, 2016, 07:33:35 PM
Yeah, if you set your cruise control at 75 on any of Arizona's rural interstates, you are one of the slow pokes and you'll get passed by pretty much everyone except for trucks and old people.
On a side note, I used to think that I-17 was an exception where speed limits shouldn't be raised to 80 (and some parts of it shouldn't) but I've come to realize that 80 is quite a reasonable speed for most of it.
Yup! Thought Boston was crazy... Now, not so much. Phoenix drivers are weird and rude.
-- andy3175: fixed quotation