Car repair shops turning away jobs over ‘financial restraints,’ costly tech

Started by ZLoth, November 09, 2024, 04:54:06 PM

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ZLoth

From SOURCE:

Local car repair shops turning away jobs over 'financial restraints,' costly tech for new vehicles — why taking your car to a dealership for a fix-up might be your only option soon
QuoteAs the technology in new vehicles becomes increasingly sophisticated, local repair shops, like Ted's Auto Clinic in Chicago, owned by brothers George and Chris Geropoulos, face mounting financial and logistical barriers to repairing modern cars.

The auto repair shop, opened by their father in 1982, is increasingly unable to service newer cars, which often require a special scanner and a subscription service to access the car's computer to perform diagnostics and make repairs.
FULL ARTICLE HERE
Don't Drive Distrac... SQUIRREL!


vdeane

I hope the feds do something about this.  Having to go to the dealer for maintenance and repairs would suck.  When my battery failed in 2020, I took it to Warren Tire, and they were able to have it replaced in 5-10 minutes.  When I called the dealer earlier, they said it would take three hours.  I don't have anyone to ferry me around while they work, so I'd have to sit and wait, and I don't have that kind of time.

The last straw was when I did a routine service interval with them (oil change/tire rotation/etc.).  They had a deal for booking online, so I did so.  The online booking doesn't exactly match what the maintenance minder says, and does have a way to put in the tire rotation, so I just put in the oil change and reminded them about the tire rotation when I got there (I forget if there was anything else).  2.5 hours later, they're done, and only did the oil change, no tire rotation.  I didn't have any more time at that point, so I basically skipped the tire rotation for that service interval, which sucked, because I can feel the difference when I drive, and it's ~10k miles between service intervals.  Meanwhile, Warren Tire can do the equivalent service in 30 minutes, maybe an hour if they're busy.

I also got free NYS inspections for the life of the car, but after enough times where I had to remind them of that and sit there for who knows how long while they figured it out, I gave up and just go to Warren Tire for that too.

And my local dealer is fairly reputable.  Some areas don't have any trustworthy dealers.  I remember when my Mom brought one of her past vehicles into the dealer for a recall, and she said that every single person who was there would have the dealer come back saying something was "wrong" with the car that needed to be fixed.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Max Rockatansky

My new Corolla Hybrid has a 5,000 mile service interval.  Thing is that the 5,000 mile service essentially amounts to a tire rotation and a multi-point inspection.  I didn't bother and just turned off the 5,000 maintenance indicator.  I'll wait until 10,000 for the rotation when the oil is due.  This just strikes me as Toyota trying to drive extra service traffic to dealerships.

SEWIGuy

I haven't had to take a car in to do anything but routine maintenance in ages, but when that time comes I'm definitely going to a dealer. I don't really trust the mom and pop shops with today's cars anyway.

Brandon

Quote from: vdeane on November 09, 2024, 08:12:14 PMI hope the feds do something about this.  Having to go to the dealer for maintenance and repairs would suck.  When my battery failed in 2020, I took it to Warren Tire, and they were able to have it replaced in 5-10 minutes.  When I called the dealer earlier, they said it would take three hours.  I don't have anyone to ferry me around while they work, so I'd have to sit and wait, and I don't have that kind of time.

The last straw was when I did a routine service interval with them (oil change/tire rotation/etc.).  They had a deal for booking online, so I did so.  The online booking doesn't exactly match what the maintenance minder says, and does have a way to put in the tire rotation, so I just put in the oil change and reminded them about the tire rotation when I got there (I forget if there was anything else).  2.5 hours later, they're done, and only did the oil change, no tire rotation.  I didn't have any more time at that point, so I basically skipped the tire rotation for that service interval, which sucked, because I can feel the difference when I drive, and it's ~10k miles between service intervals.  Meanwhile, Warren Tire can do the equivalent service in 30 minutes, maybe an hour if they're busy.

I also got free NYS inspections for the life of the car, but after enough times where I had to remind them of that and sit there for who knows how long while they figured it out, I gave up and just go to Warren Tire for that too.

And my local dealer is fairly reputable.  Some areas don't have any trustworthy dealers.  I remember when my Mom brought one of her past vehicles into the dealer for a recall, and she said that every single person who was there would have the dealer come back saying something was "wrong" with the car that needed to be fixed.

If you buy your tires from a place like Discount Tire, they do the rotate and balance for free as a part of buying the tires from them.  It takes maybe a half hour or so, depending on how busy they are.  Maybe Warren Tire has the same deal?
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton, "Game of Thrones"

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kalvado

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 09, 2024, 08:35:22 PMMy new Corolla Hybrid has a 5,000 mile service interval.  Thing is that the 5,000 mile service essentially amounts to a tire rotation and a multi-point inspection.  I didn't bother and just turned off the 5,000 maintenance indicator.  I'll wait until 10,000 for the rotation when the oil is due.  This just strikes me as Toyota trying to drive extra service traffic to dealerships.
There is still a gap between oil manufacturers saying oil is good for 10k miles and Valvoline oil change place saying 3k.
That is given most modern cars require full synthetic 0w20 or better.

jeffandnicole

There's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

Glancing around, it doesn't appear these services are insanely expensive. Maybe a few hundred bucks per month, which a repair facility can spread out to the hundreds of cars they may work on each month. Sure, very small repair shops may feel the bite a bit more, but if they're good with customer service, they should be abke to roll the cost into the price with no problem.

That all said, I generally take my vehicles to the dealer for maintenance. While they're good and don't make up phantom issues from my experiences, the only problem I've had lately is my hybrid should be able to go 90k between transmission fluid changes. The dealership prefers 30k-45k. Even for normal modern vehicles that's probably more than necessary, but at least it's close to the manufacturers recommendations. They're trying to apply a full ICE maintenance schedule to my hybrid, which is just mostly profit to them.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: kalvado on November 10, 2024, 09:04:09 AMThere is still a gap between oil manufacturers saying oil is good for 10k miles and Valvoline oil change place saying 3k.
That is given most modern cars require full synthetic 0w20 or better.

Oil change places make their money off of oil changes. Since modern oils don't require changing 3 times as long, that's 3 times less a car needs to be services. So those places, Valvoline, Jiffy Libe, etc, need to manufacture reasons why this is still 1970 and you should get your oil changed every 3,000 miles.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: kalvado on November 10, 2024, 09:04:09 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 09, 2024, 08:35:22 PMMy new Corolla Hybrid has a 5,000 mile service interval.  Thing is that the 5,000 mile service essentially amounts to a tire rotation and a multi-point inspection.  I didn't bother and just turned off the 5,000 maintenance indicator.  I'll wait until 10,000 for the rotation when the oil is due.  This just strikes me as Toyota trying to drive extra service traffic to dealerships.
There is still a gap between oil manufacturers saying oil is good for 10k miles and Valvoline oil change place saying 3k.
That is given most modern cars require full synthetic 0w20 or better.

Depends on the oil change place.  Jiffy Lube (at least the one I visit) is sticking to what manufacturer recommendation is.

ZLoth

I'm a little bit sinful in this regard because I change the oil in my cars only once a year to correspond with the Texas emissions testing (and it used to include safe inspection as well), and only because I'm rarely driving. Both vehicles are driven once a week, with my car when I'm solo, and my mother's car when I'm taking her on a errand. Both use synthetic oil.

I'm slightly amused when I did a google search and found this post from a dealership:
QuoteAn oil change service doesn't take long, but its results last for thousands of miles. And while the old rule of thumb was to change your oil every 3,000 miles or so, modern automotive technology has stretched that figure even further. Due to better engineering and better oil formulations, now you can expect between 7,500 to 10,000 miles between oil changes!
No wonder we have the dealer upsells. But, yeah, on modern cars, 3k miles is more than likely too often to change the oil.

As for tires, I end up going to Discount Tire (aka America's Tire in California) because of the free air pressure checks as well as the tire rotations.
Don't Drive Distrac... SQUIRREL!

mgk920

More reasons to expect a trend towards adopting strong  'right to repair' laws in coming years.

Mike

Rothman

Quote from: mgk920 on November 10, 2024, 11:46:04 AMMore reasons to expect a trend towards adopting strong  'right to repair' laws in coming years.

Mike

I doubt it.  Businesses run our government, not consumers.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 10, 2024, 10:19:58 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 10, 2024, 09:04:09 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 09, 2024, 08:35:22 PMMy new Corolla Hybrid has a 5,000 mile service interval.  Thing is that the 5,000 mile service essentially amounts to a tire rotation and a multi-point inspection.  I didn't bother and just turned off the 5,000 maintenance indicator.  I'll wait until 10,000 for the rotation when the oil is due.  This just strikes me as Toyota trying to drive extra service traffic to dealerships.
There is still a gap between oil manufacturers saying oil is good for 10k miles and Valvoline oil change place saying 3k.
That is given most modern cars require full synthetic 0w20 or better.

Depends on the oil change place.  Jiffy Lube (at least the one I visit) is sticking to what manufacturer recommendation is.
Even OEM numbers seem to be below oil manufacturers numbers. I did that simple paper chromatography test before last service, and as far as I understand there was still plenty of life in that oil. But since NY has annual inspection requirement which was coming overdue....

wriddle082

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

Yes, the Feds *can* do something about it.  Lawmakers can ignore automaker lobbyists, and pass the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right To Repair Act.

I enjoying watching automotive content on YouTube.  Mostly content related to revivals of older cars, but sometimes newer neglected cars.  Most YouTube automotive content creators have at least one video where they discuss Right To Repair and how important it is both to DIYers as well as repair shops.


Rothman

Quote from: wriddle082 on November 10, 2024, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

Yes, the Feds *can* do something about it.  Lawmakers can ignore automaker lobbyists, and pass the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right To Repair Act.

I enjoying watching automotive content on YouTube.  Mostly content related to revivals of older cars, but sometimes newer neglected cars.  Most YouTube automotive content creators have at least one video where they discuss Right To Repair and how important it is both to DIYers as well as repair shops.



They can, but they won't.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

LilianaUwU

Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2024, 08:06:32 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on November 10, 2024, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

Yes, the Feds *can* do something about it.  Lawmakers can ignore automaker lobbyists, and pass the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right To Repair Act.

I enjoying watching automotive content on YouTube.  Mostly content related to revivals of older cars, but sometimes newer neglected cars.  Most YouTube automotive content creators have at least one video where they discuss Right To Repair and how important it is both to DIYers as well as repair shops.



They can, but they won't.
Of course not. Can't upset the billionaire companies.
"Volcano with no fire... Not volcano... Just mountain."
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My pronouns are she/her. Also, I'm an admin on the AARoads Wiki.

wriddle082

Quote from: LilianaUwU on November 10, 2024, 08:29:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2024, 08:06:32 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on November 10, 2024, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

Yes, the Feds *can* do something about it.  Lawmakers can ignore automaker lobbyists, and pass the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right To Repair Act.

I enjoying watching automotive content on YouTube.  Mostly content related to revivals of older cars, but sometimes newer neglected cars.  Most YouTube automotive content creators have at least one video where they discuss Right To Repair and how important it is both to DIYers as well as repair shops.



They can, but they won't.
Of course not. Can't upset the billionaire companies.

And I realize that both of you live in Northern climates where road salt is a way of life and thus older cars are nearly extinct due to rust.  But a good chunk of the population now lives in warmer climates.  Here in the middle of South Carolina, I honestly don't remember the last time SCDOT had to brine/salt the roads because it's just not even a yearly thing down here (but at least once a year in the Upstate).

A consequence of this is, especially in my area, many vehicles are older because they don't rust away, and we're much more willing to continue to repair to make them last as long as possible.  For example, I drive a nearly 20-yo GMC pickup truck with 305k miles, very little rust (though the paint isn't all that great), and a very reliable engine.  I really haven't put a great deal of money into maintaining it, and I try to do as much on my own as I can.  And considering the age, GM of course has long since forgotten about my truck, and probably wishes they never made it in the first place because of its reliability and lower revenue stream from parts and/or repairs.

As much as I love my truck, it's not going to last forever.  Because my father-in-law is a GM retiree (30 years at the old Fisher Body in Lansing, MI), we are a solid GM family and get GM Employee Pricing on new cars.  Before I married into this family, I had owned one GM in the past but at the time I owned a Jeep and a Honda.  Traded the Honda for my truck right before we got married because I had a legitimate need for it at the time.

Fast forward to today, and once I do finally need a new vehicle, I will be a bit scared.  I am still beholden to GM makes, and I really can't find one that appeals to me in the slightest.  And all pickup trucks are way too expensive.  I don't necessarily need another truck these days, as a midsize or full size SUV would fulfill my needs, but GM's offerings are either too expensive or unappealing.  It's like they're only concerned with gouging their customers for as much as they can at the expense of quality and customer loyalty, when they could go the route of Honda or Toyota or even Ford, who at least seem to care about not riling up their loyal customers unnecessarily.

Of course, after the time comes when I am no longer beholden to GM, if their corporate culture hasn't improved by then, I'm going back to Honda.

Rothman

Quote from: wriddle082 on November 11, 2024, 09:16:50 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on November 10, 2024, 08:29:58 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 10, 2024, 08:06:32 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on November 10, 2024, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

Yes, the Feds *can* do something about it.  Lawmakers can ignore automaker lobbyists, and pass the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right To Repair Act.

I enjoying watching automotive content on YouTube.  Mostly content related to revivals of older cars, but sometimes newer neglected cars.  Most YouTube automotive content creators have at least one video where they discuss Right To Repair and how important it is both to DIYers as well as repair shops.



They can, but they won't.
Of course not. Can't upset the billionaire companies.

And I realize that both of you live in Northern climates where road salt is a way of life and thus older cars are nearly extinct due to rust.  But a good chunk of the population now lives in warmer climates.  Here in the middle of South Carolina, I honestly don't remember the last time SCDOT had to brine/salt the roads because it's just not even a yearly thing down here (but at least once a year in the Upstate).

A consequence of this is, especially in my area, many vehicles are older because they don't rust away, and we're much more willing to continue to repair to make them last as long as possible.  For example, I drive a nearly 20-yo GMC pickup truck with 305k miles, very little rust (though the paint isn't all that great), and a very reliable engine.  I really haven't put a great deal of money into maintaining it, and I try to do as much on my own as I can.  And considering the age, GM of course has long since forgotten about my truck, and probably wishes they never made it in the first place because of its reliability and lower revenue stream from parts and/or repairs.

As much as I love my truck, it's not going to last forever.  Because my father-in-law is a GM retiree (30 years at the old Fisher Body in Lansing, MI), we are a solid GM family and get GM Employee Pricing on new cars.  Before I married into this family, I had owned one GM in the past but at the time I owned a Jeep and a Honda.  Traded the Honda for my truck right before we got married because I had a legitimate need for it at the time.

Fast forward to today, and once I do finally need a new vehicle, I will be a bit scared.  I am still beholden to GM makes, and I really can't find one that appeals to me in the slightest.  And all pickup trucks are way too expensive.  I don't necessarily need another truck these days, as a midsize or full size SUV would fulfill my needs, but GM's offerings are either too expensive or unappealing.  It's like they're only concerned with gouging their customers for as much as they can at the expense of quality and customer loyalty, when they could go the route of Honda or Toyota or even Ford, who at least seem to care about not riling up their loyal customers unnecessarily.

Of course, after the time comes when I am no longer beholden to GM, if their corporate culture hasn't improved by then, I'm going back to Honda.


Not sure how your preference for GM and wanting to be able to continue to repair them negates the fact that right to repair is probably quite a long shot given our our legislative branch is funded.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

hotdogPi

It can be done at the state level. Massachusetts passed it via ballot initiative in 2020.
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Rothman

Quote from: hotdogPi on November 11, 2024, 08:47:27 PMIt can be done at the state level. Massachusetts passed it via ballot initiative in 2020.

From the discussion in this thread, makes me wonder if that ballot initiative has had the teeth desired.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Max Rockatansky

The only recent state level legislation that really that had a significant impact on the auto industry in CEQA.  A lot of that power given to the California Air Resource Board is contingent upon the state maintaining a Federal waiver to set their own automotive emission standards.  I suspect that waiver is likely in peril with the upcoming administration given it was a prior target. 

wriddle082

Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2024, 08:31:11 PMNot sure how your preference for GM and wanting to be able to continue to repair them negates the fact that right to repair is probably quite a long shot given our our legislative branch is funded.

My point is that not everyone can afford to, or has a desire to, go to a dealership to get their vehicle fixed.  Once a vehicle's warranty has run out, they shouldn't have a useless lump of metal in their driveway a short time later that they can't afford to fix out of pocket.  Also, some people are thrifty and don't enjoy having some sort of car payment for the rest of their lives in order to always be driving something that's under warranty.  And finally, a great many people (who aren't lucky enough to be employed by a cozy DOT in a Northeastern state that likely pays very well and probably offers one hell of a pension at retirement) are on fixed incomes, are unemployed, or may be struggling to find work.  If they have a vehicle, the last thing they need to worry about is how they're gonna be able to afford overpriced automotive repairs from dealerships.  So if the voices of the people are loud enough, and enough legislators from both parties hear them, maybe something will happen.  Sure it's a longshot, but one can only hope.

GM's current business model is already very flawed.  They are about to stop offering Apple CarPlay and Android Auto in their new offerings, starting with their electric lineup and then eventually everything else.  Other automakers are doubling down on those extremely useful infotainment features, because the customer wants them.  GM's move is going to backfire in a big way, their sales will suffer (most will probably go to rental car fleets), and their executive leadership will hopefully face the consequences from their board of directors or shareholders.  And I really don't want to see the once proud GM suffer any more than they already have over the years (and my father-in-law potentially lose any more retirement benefits), though it's likely inevitable at this point.  As much as I can't stand Ford's offerings, they may soon be the last wholly American manufacturer of traditional automobiles.

Scott5114

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2024, 10:08:23 AMThere's really nothing the Feds can do since they're in charge of making sure vehicles maintain minimum safety standards, not how the car should be built and maintained.

They are in charge of maintaining competitive business practices, however. If the car manufacturers are intentionally engineering cars to only be serviced by dealers, that would be something they could regulate under antitrust law.

Not that I expect that to actually happen after this past Tuesday, but still.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Rothman

Quote from: wriddle082 on November 12, 2024, 12:04:25 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 11, 2024, 08:31:11 PMNot sure how your preference for GM and wanting to be able to continue to repair them negates the fact that right to repair is probably quite a long shot given our our legislative branch is funded.

My point is that not everyone can afford to, or has a desire to, go to a dealership to get their vehicle fixed.  Once a vehicle's warranty has run out, they shouldn't have a useless lump of metal in their driveway a short time later that they can't afford to fix out of pocket.  Also, some people are thrifty and don't enjoy having some sort of car payment for the rest of their lives in order to always be driving something that's under warranty.  And finally, a great many people (who aren't lucky enough to be employed by a cozy DOT in a Northeastern state that likely pays very well and probably offers one hell of a pension at retirement) are on fixed incomes, are unemployed, or may be struggling to find work.  If they have a vehicle, the last thing they need to worry about is how they're gonna be able to afford overpriced automotive repairs from dealerships.  So if the voices of the people are loud enough, and enough legislators from both parties hear them, maybe something will happen.  Sure it's a longshot, but one can only hope.

GM's current business model is already very flawed.  They are about to stop offering Apple CarPlay and Android Auto in their new offerings, starting with their electric lineup and then eventually everything else.  Other automakers are doubling down on those extremely useful infotainment features, because the customer wants them.  GM's move is going to backfire in a big way, their sales will suffer (most will probably go to rental car fleets), and their executive leadership will hopefully face the consequences from their board of directors or shareholders.  And I really don't want to see the once proud GM suffer any more than they already have over the years (and my father-in-law potentially lose any more retirement benefits), though it's likely inevitable at this point.  As much as I can't stand Ford's offerings, they may soon be the last wholly American manufacturer of traditional automobiles.


The voice of the people on this matter will never be loud enough to drown out the corporation dollars from which legislators benefit.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

And does anyone have a more or less personal example of a repair actually needing dealership involvement?
I can see several aspects.
First is, of course, authentic parts needed to be OEM approved. FU Steve Jobs.
Second is more reliable overall construction, with little small repairs needed until the point where cars were previously junked anyway.
Third, a more complicated electronic control system where things require an engineer rather than mechanic to diagnose.

Any other aspects of it?



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