Modern cars bands that you won't purchase

[Rothman]

In my life, I have owned, or been responsible as a manager, for many dozens of cars, from all companies.  One simple rule.  If the car was assembled by, or the engine or transmission was made by, a plant under the control of the UAW/CAW, hard pass. Any other car, made anywhere, including the US/Canada plants of so-called "foreign" brands, are A-OK.

Why?

In this day and age, it's not the workmanship on the assembly line that determines the quality because that generation of union rank and file membership has long since retired.  Rather, it's the engineering.  GM had some great quality trucks in the 00's during a period when Ford had bad engines (namely the 5.4L 3-valve-per-cylinder Triton V8).  It had absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the assembly line workers were represented by a union.

For the best feel on which car makes you should avoid or which ones you should consider, ask an independent mechanic.  Whatever he works on frequently, probably should be avoided.  Whatever he rarely touches, is probably a safe bet.

https://youtu.be/B34DmsMxUlA?si=55Zljko6GZqgbaZf

[SSOWorld]

What I will avoid

 - GM: No chance in getting something that wants to kick out third party features (like Apple CarPlay)
 - Tesla: Many fucking reasons!!!!!
 - Anything Stallantis - from what I read - they fall apart quickly. I've driven a few jeeps (including a couple wranglers)
 - Toyota (or Toy Yoda if you wish) - a bland brand.

I have owned Hyundai vehicles (Sonata, Elantra, Tucson) since 2008.  If I chose a new vehicle anytime soon (won't because the Tuc is 1.5 years) it would be Honda (particularly the Ridgeline)

[JayhawkCO]

Acura, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Audi, BMW, Bentley, Bugatti, Buick, Cadillac, Canoo, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Dodge, Ferrari, Fiat, GMC, Genesis, Honda, Hummer, Hyundai, Ineos, Infiniti, Jaguar, Karma, Lamborghini, Land Rover, Lexus, Lincoln, Lotus, Lucid, Maserati, Maybach, Mazda, McLaren, Mercedes, Mini, Mitsubishi, Polestar, Porsche, Ram, Rolls-Royce, Tesla, Volkswagen, VinFast, Volvo

Pfft, that's just the names of all your little ducks on your dashboard.

Saying you won't buy a Lamborghini is akin to saying you won't take the subway in Aberdeen, South Dakota.

I actually don't have a Jeep anymore. If you notice, there are other brands that aren't on that list that I'd be interested in owning, including what I currently drive, a Subaru.

Even if I had fuck you money, I'd never buy a Lambo. Rent one? Sure. Own one? Hell no.

And just to specify, the brands that I left remaining are Ford, Nissan, Rivian, Scout, Subaru, and Toyota.

[SEWIGuy]

Anybody who took a bailout back several years ago.

That was 16 years ago. Seems silly to hold that grudge now.

I would not touch Toyota with a 10' pole. They could cover up their unintended acceleration cluster foxtrot... But looks like things were business as usual for them.

Again, that was over a decade ago.

[JayhawkCO]

Anybody who took a bailout back several years ago.

That was 16 years ago. Seems silly to hold that grudge now.

I would not touch Toyota with a 10' pole. They could cover up their unintended acceleration cluster foxtrot... But looks like things were business as usual for them.

Again, that was over a decade ago.

It's no different than people thinking all Jeeps have transmission issues although that was largely over 10 years ago as well.

[SEWIGuy]

Anybody who took a bailout back several years ago.

That was 16 years ago. Seems silly to hold that grudge now.

I would not touch Toyota with a 10' pole. They could cover up their unintended acceleration cluster foxtrot... But looks like things were business as usual for them.

Again, that was over a decade ago.

It's no different than people thinking all Jeeps have transmission issues although that was largely over 10 years ago as well.

Right. That's equally silly.

[SectorZ]

Anybody who took a bailout back several years ago.

That was 16 years ago. Seems silly to hold that grudge now.

I would not touch Toyota with a 10' pole. They could cover up their unintended acceleration cluster foxtrot... But looks like things were business as usual for them.

Again, that was over a decade ago.

It's no different than people thinking all Jeeps have transmission issues although that was largely over 10 years ago as well.

Right. That's equally silly.

It's not trivial for the people who either died or who were out thousands of dollars due to that level of negligence.

Dieselgate was almost a decade ago and I would never consider VW even fifty years from now, as I believe they should have been given some sort of death penalty in this country over it. Almost 9,000 people in this country die annually due to diesel emissions and VW made that problem worse. In reality nothing but a fine came of it.

[kalvado]

I would not touch Toyota with a 10' pole. They could cover up their unintended acceleration cluster foxtrot... But looks like things were business as usual for them.

Again, that was over a decade ago.

That was a global cluster showing total disregard to design practices. I didn't see any proof of change.
Boeing in a similar situation got turned up side down by regulator, and is on a brink of extinction as a result. For Toyota that seems business as usual.   

[Takumi]

Acura, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Audi, BMW, Bentley, Bugatti, Buick, Cadillac, Canoo, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Dodge, Ferrari, Fiat, GMC, Genesis, Honda, Hummer, Hyundai, Ineos, Infiniti, Jaguar, Karma, Lamborghini, Land Rover, Lexus, Lincoln, Lotus, Lucid, Maserati, Maybach, Mazda, McLaren, Mercedes, Mini, Mitsubishi, Polestar, Porsche, Ram, Rolls-Royce, Tesla, Volkswagen, VinFast, Volvo

Pfft, that's just the names of all your little ducks on your dashboard.

Saying you won't buy a Lamborghini is akin to saying you won't take the subway in Aberdeen, South Dakota.

I actually don't have a Jeep anymore. If you notice, there are other brands that aren't on that list that I'd be interested in owning, including what I currently drive, a Subaru.

Even if I had fuck you money, I'd never buy a Lambo. Rent one? Sure. Own one? Hell no.

And just to specify, the brands that I left remaining are Ford, Nissan, Rivian, Scout, Subaru, and Toyota.

Why Ford and Toyota, but not Lincoln and Lexus? Lack of electrics?

[JayhawkCO]

Acura, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Audi, BMW, Bentley, Bugatti, Buick, Cadillac, Canoo, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Dodge, Ferrari, Fiat, GMC, Genesis, Honda, Hummer, Hyundai, Ineos, Infiniti, Jaguar, Karma, Lamborghini, Land Rover, Lexus, Lincoln, Lotus, Lucid, Maserati, Maybach, Mazda, McLaren, Mercedes, Mini, Mitsubishi, Polestar, Porsche, Ram, Rolls-Royce, Tesla, Volkswagen, VinFast, Volvo

Pfft, that's just the names of all your little ducks on your dashboard.

Saying you won't buy a Lamborghini is akin to saying you won't take the subway in Aberdeen, South Dakota.

I actually don't have a Jeep anymore. If you notice, there are other brands that aren't on that list that I'd be interested in owning, including what I currently drive, a Subaru.

Even if I had fuck you money, I'd never buy a Lambo. Rent one? Sure. Own one? Hell no.

And just to specify, the brands that I left remaining are Ford, Nissan, Rivian, Scout, Subaru, and Toyota.

Why Ford and Toyota, but not Lincoln and Lexus? Lack of electrics?

If I were to buy a new car, I would likely be buying one with 4WD capability (as I miss it from selling my Jeep). Broncos, Tacomas, and 4Runners are appealing in that regard.

Re: Lincoln and Lexus, I've come to terms with the fact that I need function over fashion. They're nice cars, but would never spend the money just for "luxury" if it were less capable than other cars for less money. A slightly quieter ride and softer leather seats are not important to me at all.

[Scott5114]

Why's Canoo on the blacklist? Because they look a little silly? (They were kind of the "home team" manufacturer in Oklahoma, so I wish them well, but I didn't think that enough of them had actually been made yet for there to be any meaningful issues to become apparent, if you know of one I don't.)

[JayhawkCO]

Why's Canoo on the blacklist? Because they look a little silly? (They were kind of the "home team" manufacturer in Oklahoma, so I wish them well, but I didn't think that enough of them had actually been made yet for there to be any meaningful issues to become apparent, if you know of one I don't.)

Same reason. Not the kind of car I would be in the market for. I'm aware my needs are different than most here. If I felt like buying a car for just around town? Sure. But, bluntly, I wouldn't be buying a new car for those purposes. My 2012 Outback I'm driving right now does that just fine. There aren't really any features (other than Android Auto that I could fix if I put in a new head unit) that newer cars have that mine doesn't.

I work from home, outside of driving to the mountains for camping and climbing, I put maybe 5,000 miles on my car per year. I don't need anything fancy if I'm never actually in my car.

[1995hoo]

As I've said before, I hope not to be in the car market for some time yet, but I also recognize that my car is 20 years old and won't last forever. When the time comes, I will certainly consider an EV or a plug-in hybrid, though I won't go so far as to say I'd definitely buy one. On paper, my wife and I are ideal candidates for one because I telecommute and she works part-time about four or five miles from home. So when it comes to researching those vehicles, I'd assess their makers' reliability records as to those types of vehicles rather than relying solely on their gas history. I'd also examine what sort of vehicle is being sold. For example, I've had very good experiences with Honda and Acura vehicles, but the current Honda Prologue EV is a rebadged General Motors vehicle with GM-based controls that differ significantly from what Honda typically offers. I'd likely find that off-putting. But if I were to buy a gas car, I'd certainly consider what Honda offers.

I've driven two Teslas as rental cars and there are things I liked and disliked. I would not categorically rule them out, but I'm also not sure I'd buy one. One major consideration would be that apparently they have further tweaked the controls to make them even more esoteric—instead of controlling the turn signals via a stalk, I gather you now have to use steering-wheel buttons. That sounds like changing something that wasn't broken. A week or two ago when I was at the grocery store I stopped to ask a couple about their Ford Mustang EV and one thing the husband said was that the controls are more normal than Tesla's and include more physical buttons. So while as a general matter I'm not particularly interested in most Ford vehicles, that comment would certainly prompt me to check out the Mustang EV.

Beyond those comments, regardless of power source I'm pretty certain I would not consider an Alfa Romeo (too many reliability problems), a BMW (I've read too many reports of problems with the electronics), a Jaguar, or a Porsche (too expensive, including very pricey maintenance). At the present time I would not consider a VinFast either based on the horrible reviews they've gotten, but I remain open to revisiting that in the future if they improve their product (after all, the first Japanese and South Korean cars weren't all that great either and they certainly improved).

The stuff about Apple CarPlay doesn't really matter to me because none of the cars we have now has that feature, so I wouldn't miss it.

[LilianaUwU]

I will categorically rule Tesla out. For what it's worth, right now I'm more likely to buy an old city bus (and I have a specific one in mind) than any car.

[SP Cook]

Why?

Build quality.  UAW/CAW low, all others high.

In this day and age, it's not the workmanship on the assembly line that determines the quality because that generation of union rank and file membership has long since retired.  Rather, it's the engineering. 

A good variation on the Big Lie from the (formerly) Big Three.  "Yes, the cars we made 10 years ago were crap, but now, boy ...."

I'm old enough to remember that line being used for decades.  10 years ago they admitted the cars they made 20 years ago were crap, but the ones then were "different", and 10 years from now they will admit the cars of today were crap, but claim the new ones are "different".

Too old to fall for it.  Understand that the UAW/CAW culture is systemically incapable of making a quality automobile.  Other cultures, be they unionized as in Europe or to an extent and different way, Japan, can; rising third world places, can; or Americans and Canadians working union-free, can.  UAW/CAW cannot.

[LilianaUwU]

Understand that the UAW/CAW culture is systemically incapable of making a quality automobile.  Other cultures, be they unionized as in Europe or to an extent and different way, Japan, can; rising third world places, can; or Americans and Canadians working union-free, can.  UAW/CAW cannot.

Maybe the cars are of lesser quality, but at least the workers don't work themselves to death. Incompetent workers should not be protected by the union, though.

[WillWeaverRVA]

I will categorically rule Tesla out. For what it's worth, right now I'm more likely to buy an old city bus (and I have a specific one in mind) than any car.

Okay, that sounds cool.

More on topic, I'm firmly against Tesla and I will never, ever, ever buy a Tesla vehicle. My intense dislike for Elon Musk is only part of the reason - they're ugly, expensive, and dangerous, and there are recalls all the time. (Of course, because of certain recent political developments, I imagine the recalls will stop...but the problems will persist.) The lack of EV charging infrastructure is another big strike against them for me.

For brands I have no interest in for reasons other than irrational blind rage, I won't buy a Ford. Every Ford (or related brand such as Mercury) I've ever driven has had major problems.

Although I like Hyundai and Kia - my wife has had an Elantra and a Soul - and their cars are pretty good quality and easy to drive, I can't see myself getting one because they're almost impossible to service yourself. The cars seem deliberately designed so that you basically have to take them to the dealership for service, plus parts are extremely expensive.

I actually don't mind Toyota being relatively bland compared to other companies. Their cars aren't really anything special, but they're very reliable and actually quite easy to service yourself if you need to. I have a 2007 Camry that's about to hit 200,000 miles. It had some major issues last year but I was able to do a lot of the repairs myself - including nearly completely disassembling and reassembling the engine - and it's now fully drivable again. It's even better after I took it in for those few things I wasn't able to fix myself. If my current Camry ever craps out I might very well get another one.

[JayhawkCO]

I don't mind if things aren't "easy" to work on myself for most things, but things like battery replacement and light bulb replacement being a PITA is asinine. My headlight went out on my Outback and I ordered some bulbs from Amazon and then realized I literally had to pull off body paneling to change it. That's madness.

I tried to help a friend change her battery on her VW Golf back in the day, and realized it was buried somewhere under the engine.

[Max Rockatansky]

I think the admin clerk rolling up one day at work in a Model Y with the plate "NVMYY" was the moment that sold me on Tesla being a douche bag brand.

[JayhawkCO]

I rented a Tesla, and I enjoyed driving it, but unless I had a charger at home, I would never own one. Even then probably not. Needing to sit for 40 minutes to charge when on a roadtrip isn't reasonable.

Even worse is I just rented a Kia Niro this past weekend in KC. I needed to charge it, found the closest Tesla superchargers and then realized that plug didn't fit it. So then I found out that there were other chargers at the other end of the parking lot I was in. Plugged that in and realized it was only AC and was going to take 9 hours. So then I had to go to another place where they had DC charging. It took me three different apps to find the charger that would actually work. That 100% made it so I won't rent an EV ever again.

[LilianaUwU]

I don't mind if things aren't "easy" to work on myself for most things

Considering I'm in the market for an articulated bus, I think it's obvious I don't care either.

[JayhawkCO]

I don't mind if things aren't "easy" to work on myself for most things

Considering I'm in the market for an articulated bus, I think it's obvious I don't care either.

Well, I think you'll run into your own challenges with that. I doubt your average auto shop is going to sign up to work on those.

[1995hoo]

....

More on topic, I'm firmly against Tesla and I will never, ever, ever buy a Tesla vehicle. My intense dislike for Elon Musk is only part of the reason - they're ugly, expensive, and dangerous, and there are recalls all the time. (Of course, because of certain recent political developments, I imagine the recalls will stop...but the problems will persist.) The lack of EV charging infrastructure is another big strike against them for me.

....

The boldfaced is the part of your comment I find interesting because I would think that if you were to consider any EV at all, access to charging would suggest Tesla as the brand with the most-developed charging infrastructure (although it's fair to recognize that other automakers are now gaining access to the Supercharger network). Last January when we visited relatives in Broward County, my wife was interested in renting a Polestar (Volvo EV), but I couldn't find a reliable listing of compatible charging stations in the area, whereas we knew where the nearest two Superchargers were. So we rented a Tesla instead. The current situation where other automakers are supposed to be gaining access to the Supercharger network, but may not yet actually have access, would be another issue giving me pause if I were exploring an EV purchase. I'd want to make sure whatever I bought did have such access at the time of purchase.

[seicer]

I have been pleased with my Subarus, with a combined 800,000+ miles over three Outback models. After 250,000 miles, I had to replace a water pump on my 2011 Outback. I am now with a 2022 Outback Wilderness and have had to replace one ABS sensor at ~40,000 miles and an axle boot at ~60,000 miles after I did some rugged off-roading.

Its winter and mud/dirt capabilities have been exceptional, within reason. I have never been stuck in the snow or bogged down while going off-road in Appalachia. It's no Jeep or 4Runner, but it handles just fine within its capabilities.

The only downside is the giant touchscreen that many functions route into. I love having a large touch screen as it makes it easy to pull up my maps while off-roading (Gaia GPS, Apple, Google, etc.), but controlling my off-road functions and most HVAC functions through it can be tedious and slow. Add back some buttons, please!

I am considering the just-teased 2026 Honda Pilot Trailsport, which builds upon the Wilderness' capability and adds some nice features—like vertical wheel storage, Molle attachment points, and a better touchscreen. I have also considered the new Toyota 4Runner or Land Cruiser, although I am not going off-road or overlapping nearly as much as I did when I lived in Appalachia.

But I am not considering a Jeep—any Jeep. Far too many people I know have had continuous reliability issues in everyday driving. Two friends have been stranded with broken drivetrain components, and dealing with Stellantis' dealers can be a nightmare. It's uncomfortable to drive, and as a passenger, I can get oddly car-sick—something that doesn't happen in other higher-profile vehicles.

Jeeps are also overpriced. There is a reason why Stellantis' vehicles are no longer selling well and why they are now drastically reducing prices on many models. They are piling up on lots, and there are work slowdowns or stoppage orders at plants with layoffs occurring. People now have better, more reliable models, so why go with Jeep?

I wouldn't consider a Ford, either. There are too many recalls and too many quality issues that have to be corrected after a vehicle leaves a plant. I know too many off-roaders with Broncos and Bronco Sport have had to take their cars in multiple times for warranty fixes.

No car is perfect, and no brand is infallible. The newest Toyota Tundras and Tacomas have had reliability issues after redesigns and have become very expensive compared to previous model years.

But this video sums up my thoughts:

[LilianaUwU]

I don't mind if things aren't "easy" to work on myself for most things

Considering I'm in the market for an articulated bus, I think it's obvious I don't care either.

Well, I think you'll run into your own challenges with that. I doubt your average auto shop is going to sign up to work on those.

The plan is probably just to preserve it as an early example of Nova Bus LFS Artic, so it isn't as much maintenance as having it as an unusual daily driver.