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Frisch's Big Boy death watch

Started by bandit957, December 13, 2024, 10:07:01 PM

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TheCatalyst31

Big Boy has made a few attempts to break into Wisconsin in recent years without much success. They had two locations in the Milwaukee suburbs, both of which are now closed, and opened a restaurant in Wisconsin Dells earlier this year. Only time will tell if that one will last.

I was born too late to go to the Chicago-area Big Boys, but my mom had a lot of nostalgia for them, and my family usually stopped at one if were were visiting a place where they still existed. I've eaten there occasionally on my own, but my last Big Boy meal in Michigan upset my stomach, so I'm not sure I'll go back anytime soon.


kernals12

Quote from: vdeane on December 14, 2024, 04:57:27 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on December 14, 2024, 11:36:47 AMI can't imagine how a once-great chain could fall so badly.

Quote from: bandit957 on December 13, 2024, 10:07:01 PMAlso, the whole chain has gone downhill since they were taken over by some private equity firm about 10 years ago.

Oh.  Never mind.
It should be illegal for private equity firms to own businesses.

A private equity firm is a company that owns a bunch of businesses that are not publicly traded. How do you distinguish that from any old conglomerate that has numerous subsidiaries?

kernals12

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 16, 2024, 09:19:53 PM
Quote from: GaryV on December 16, 2024, 04:34:45 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 14, 2024, 04:57:27 PMIt should be illegal for private equity firms to own businesses.

Then what would they own?



Doing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

lepidopteran

Quote from: Big John on December 14, 2024, 11:04:33 AM1978 Big Boy ad. go to :45 mark where they are flashing all their franchise logos.
There was another commercial from around that time where they had maybe 9 waitress-costumed actresses singing, and standing in a square arrangement on a map of the USA against a dark background.  They were each holding a card with one of the Big Boy franchise logos.  At a cue in the song they flipped the cards over to form a mosaic of the classic Big Boy character.

Scott5114

#29
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.

Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kernals12

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?

SEWIGuy

Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


I guess what they complain about are firms coming in and buying companies for the purpose of stripping them of their assets.  But I don't think what people realize is that a firms assets are oftentimes more valuable that way.

Big Boy, just like similar restaurants like Perkins, are more about nostalgia than anything else. If they were offering a consistently good product that the customor likes, they would be fine. But they apparently do not.

1995hoo

Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


I don't doubt there are some situations in which they buy something with the intention of using the losses to offset profits somewhere else. I'm not a tax specialist, though.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

SectorZ

Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


I think they do have an incentive but it's finance bros and not business people running the things, and inevitably they just run them into the ground. It's a bug not a feature, but it's so common it's becoming a feature.

formulanone

Quote from: 1995hoo on December 17, 2024, 10:28:58 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


I don't doubt there are some situations in which they buy something with the intention of using the losses to offset profits somewhere else. I'm not a tax specialist, though.

That's exactly what happens. I'm at a company that is owned by a private equity firm; the stock buyout was nice but now our overall profit is determined differently than public perception and actual sales performance.

Honestly, it could be just as shadowy as just having a CEO and Board of Trustees decide how much they want, but instead of the CEO deciding if he wants a new vacation house or joining a yacht club, the private equity firm decides if they'd like to buy a gig-economy pet-sitting operation or a floundering toll road in Paraguay.

TheCatalyst31

Quote from: 1995hoo on December 17, 2024, 10:28:58 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


I don't doubt there are some situations in which they buy something with the intention of using the losses to offset profits somewhere else. I'm not a tax specialist, though.

The other trick they do is take on debt to buy a business and transfer all the debt they hold to that business. Then they cut expenses to the bone to try to make their money back. If that works they can flip the business, if not they declare bankruptcy to discharge the debt. So either they kill the business or they ruin the customer and employee experience by penny-pinching, which can also kill it long-term.

Scott5114

Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


In the case of Sears/KMart, the business model their current CEO has been following has been to make money by selling the physical buildings and land Sears was located in. He makes more money that way than by operating a Sears there.

This helps Eddie out a bunch but it doesn't help you out any.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

SEWIGuy

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 08:28:01 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


In the case of Sears/KMart, the business model their current CEO has been following has been to make money by selling the physical buildings and land Sears was located in. He makes more money that way than by operating a Sears there.

This helps Eddie out a bunch but it doesn't help you out any.

It doesn't help me, but it doesn't hurt me either. Sears is dying and it's real estate is its most valuable asset.

kernals12

The real villain in this is the ability of firms to deduct interest expenses without a similar allowance for dividends.

thenetwork

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2024, 11:28:49 PM
Quote from: Henry on December 13, 2024, 11:03:10 PMOf course, if you remember the glory years, the flagship franchisee was Bob's Big Boy (another favorite former haunt of mine in my Los Angeles years), with Shoney's as another major partner before splintering off into its own company.

They just opened a new Bob's Big Boy up the road from me not too long ago. Way up the road...in Indian Springs, Nevada, a little town stuck to the side of an Air Force base. Why they decided to open one there instead of in Las Vegas (which has no Big Boy locations), I have no idea.

The Big Boy restaurants in the NE Ohio area were known as Manners Big Boy until the early 80s, then became Bob's Big Boy.  They have whittled their NE Ohio portfolio down to just 2 restaurants now in the Cleveland area. Just how they have kept the 2 remaining stores going for so long is a real mystery.

vdeane

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 17, 2024, 08:35:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 08:28:01 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


In the case of Sears/KMart, the business model their current CEO has been following has been to make money by selling the physical buildings and land Sears was located in. He makes more money that way than by operating a Sears there.

This helps Eddie out a bunch but it doesn't help you out any.

It doesn't help me, but it doesn't hurt me either. Sears is dying and it's real estate is its most valuable asset.
Sears wasn't dying until Eddie started doing this, though.  Eddie is the reason WHY it's dying.

That's the fundamental problem here.  There are short-term profits to be made in killing off a business.  And our system grossly over-values short-term gains at the expense of long-term sustainability.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: vdeane on December 17, 2024, 09:27:30 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 17, 2024, 08:35:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 08:28:01 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


In the case of Sears/KMart, the business model their current CEO has been following has been to make money by selling the physical buildings and land Sears was located in. He makes more money that way than by operating a Sears there.

This helps Eddie out a bunch but it doesn't help you out any.

It doesn't help me, but it doesn't hurt me either. Sears is dying and it's real estate is its most valuable asset.
Sears wasn't dying until Eddie started doing this, though.  Eddie is the reason WHY it's dying.

That's the fundamental problem here.  There are short-term profits to be made in killing off a business.  And our system grossly over-values short-term gains at the expense of long-term sustainability.

What? Sears has been dying since the 1990s. It's been trying to remake itself since then, but has had too much debt to do anything significant.

Rothman

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 17, 2024, 09:03:19 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


I guess what they complain about are firms coming in and buying companies for the purpose of stripping them of their assets.  But I don't think what people realize is that a firms assets are oftentimes more valuable that way.

Big Boy, just like similar restaurants like Perkins, are more about nostalgia than anything else. If they were offering a consistently good product that the customor likes, they would be fine. But they apparently do not.

That's too bad regarding Perkins.  Been a little while since I've been to one.  Liked how they were a couple notches above Denny's or IHOP.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Flint1979

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 17, 2024, 09:03:19 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


I guess what they complain about are firms coming in and buying companies for the purpose of stripping them of their assets.  But I don't think what people realize is that a firms assets are oftentimes more valuable that way.

Big Boy, just like similar restaurants like Perkins, are more about nostalgia than anything else. If they were offering a consistently good product that the customor likes, they would be fine. But they apparently do not.
I ate at a Shoney's in Tennessee about 3-4 years ago and it seemed like the same type of situation that you described Perkins as being.

vdeane

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 17, 2024, 09:38:09 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 17, 2024, 09:27:30 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 17, 2024, 08:35:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 08:28:01 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


In the case of Sears/KMart, the business model their current CEO has been following has been to make money by selling the physical buildings and land Sears was located in. He makes more money that way than by operating a Sears there.

This helps Eddie out a bunch but it doesn't help you out any.

It doesn't help me, but it doesn't hurt me either. Sears is dying and it's real estate is its most valuable asset.
Sears wasn't dying until Eddie started doing this, though.  Eddie is the reason WHY it's dying.

That's the fundamental problem here.  There are short-term profits to be made in killing off a business.  And our system grossly over-values short-term gains at the expense of long-term sustainability.

What? Sears has been dying since the 1990s. It's been trying to remake itself since then, but has had too much debt to do anything significant.
IMO you're not really "dying" if there's still a decent chance of turning things around.  But then Eddie went and made everything worse.

See also Toys R Us and Red Lobster.  Both chains were doing fine, but then got bought out by private equity, had essential assets sold for pennies to the firm and then leased back to them at exorbitant rates, and the resulting debt pulled them under.  If corporations are people, then these firms are committing murder, and should be given all the punishments that a regular person would - life in prison and/or execution.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: vdeane on December 18, 2024, 12:41:52 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 17, 2024, 09:38:09 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 17, 2024, 09:27:30 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 17, 2024, 08:35:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 08:28:01 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 08:41:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2024, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on December 17, 2024, 12:35:03 AMDoing that would simply bring us back to the 60s when companies like ITT and Ling-Temco-Vought were buying up firms in fields completely unrelated to their core business.

At least conglomerates have the incentive to actually turn a profit with the businesses that they own, instead of parting them out.


Sears being a conglomerate got us things like Craftsman tools, Kenmore appliances, the Discover card and the Prodigy ISP. Sears being run by a private equity asshole got them cut down to 8 stores, said private equity asshole $2 billion, and consumers a fat lot of nothing.

I'm sorry, but how do PE firms not have an incentive to make the companies they own turn a profit?


In the case of Sears/KMart, the business model their current CEO has been following has been to make money by selling the physical buildings and land Sears was located in. He makes more money that way than by operating a Sears there.

This helps Eddie out a bunch but it doesn't help you out any.

It doesn't help me, but it doesn't hurt me either. Sears is dying and it's real estate is its most valuable asset.
Sears wasn't dying until Eddie started doing this, though.  Eddie is the reason WHY it's dying.

That's the fundamental problem here.  There are short-term profits to be made in killing off a business.  And our system grossly over-values short-term gains at the expense of long-term sustainability.

What? Sears has been dying since the 1990s. It's been trying to remake itself since then, but has had too much debt to do anything significant.
IMO you're not really "dying" if there's still a decent chance of turning things around.  But then Eddie went and made everything worse.

I don't think you understand why private equity bought Sears. It's because they were debt-ridden, no longer functioning well as stores, and the only assets they had worth anything were the brands. They had gotten to the point, especially after the acquisition of K-Mart, that they couldn't be saved.

Scott5114

K-Mart acquired Sears, not the other way around.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

SEWIGuy

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 18, 2024, 04:26:08 PMK-Mart acquired Sears, not the other way around.

Correct. I should have said "by Kmart." Thank you.

bing101


kernals12

The tax shelter industry certainly has fallen. Back in the 80s creating paper losses meant building office space, renting cars, and farming almonds.



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