Why no 4 or 5 level stack interchanges in the Northeast?

[Buffaboy]

One thing about Buffalo is that we have a lack of criss-crossing freeways. The only 3 that we have are I-190/NY-5, NY-33/I-90, and I-190/Lasalle Exp.

The first wouldn't warrant a stack of 4-5 levels and probably wouldn't warrant a stack at all. The Skyway ends at Chrich St (although I saw an old master planning map that had it continuing behind City Hall along Delaware to NY-425, which is practically impossible in every way).

The second is the best candidate for a stack of any kind. 4-5 levels I'm not sure though.

The third has a geometry that isn't really stack friendly.

[froggie]

Another thing not mentioned yet:  much of the Northeast (specifically the three states of northern New England) just doesn't have the traffic volumes to warrant a full stack interchange.  Not even I-293/NH 101/Merritt outside Manchester, which really only has one big turning movement at it.  Nor at I-95/NH 101, which has a lot of volume on I-95 but not enough turning volume to warrant such an interchange (nevermind that I-95 is a toll road with a mainline booth right at NH 101).

[longhorn]

Thanks for the replies, but aren't cloverleafs more dangerous than a stack? Clover leafs require dangerous lane changes as the merging traffic has to cross traffic trying to exit.

And what is a Trumpet interchange?

We have NIMBYs to in Texas, they are all in Austin,Tx. The reason why the fastest growing city in the US rather spend money on bike paths than expanding I-35. Its to be expected for the masses to leave their airconditioned cars in August and jump on a bike and head to work in a business suit or dress...........But I digress.

[froggie]

Thanks for the replies, but aren't cloverleafs more dangerous than a stack? Clover leafs require dangerous lane changes as the merging traffic has to cross traffic trying to exit.

No different than other weaving movements, including some that exist associated with older stacks (between where a stack ramp merges/diverges and the adjacent on/off ramp if the distance is short enough).  In lower traffic situations, cloverleafs are far more economical than stacks.

And what is a Trumpet interchange?

A 3-way interchange where one ramp is a loop.  In the Metroplex, the interchange on I-30 to access TX 360 and Six Flags is an example.  The I-30/LOOP 12 interchange closer to Dallas is an example of a double-trumpet.

The reason why the fastest growing city in the US rather spend money on bike paths than expanding I-35.

I'm not going to argue priorities, but I'd like to point out that the cost of bike infrastructure in a city is effectively a rounding error compared to the cost of a major interchange or widening project in that same city.  Yeah, the Texas heat is a concern, but shower facilities at the workplace (which many employers are offering these days) can alleviate that, and it's a lot less likely to get "stuck in traffic" on a bike than it is in a car.

[AMLNet49]

Almost all freeways in the northeast start at a Trumpet or Directional-T. Most of those that aren't either of those simply split off the parent highway in one direction only. Many freeway-freeway junctions are cloverleafs. There are some large freeway-freeway junctions (especially in, but most of these are of some sort of unique design (Bruckner interchange, I-90/93, I-78/95, I-84/91).

[vdeane]

-I-87 (Northway) Exit 6 (some of the original plans were grander)

Interesting... makes me wonder what I would be commuting through if the SPUI wasn't chosen.

[cl94]

-I-87 (Northway) Exit 6 (some of the original plans were grander)

Interesting... makes me wonder what I would be commuting through if the SPUI wasn't chosen.

The study (don't know where it is) had at least 10 alternatives. Various partial cloverleafs were thought up, as well as an alternative that involved a long flyover from EB to NB, allowing through traffic to bypass the intersections at the interchange.

[cpzilliacus]

In Texas 4 or 5 level stacks are as common as trees, yet for example in DC, or NYC I noticed this piece of civic engineering does not exist in the northeast, why?

D.C.?  Perhaps the District of Columbia, yes. 

But have you heard of the Springfield Interchange (junction of I-95, I-395, I-495 and Va. 644) in Fairfax County. Not a classic-looking stack, but plenty tall, especially the soaring ramps that carry I-95 through the interchange.

The Maryland suburbs of D.C. do not have any stacks (the closest in terms of high ramps are at I-95/I-495 (Capital Beltway) and U.S. 50 (unsigned I-595, John Hanson Highway) in Prince George's County and at Md. 200 (ICC) and U.S. 29 in Montgomery County (which is a three level stack, built that way in part because there was not enough land for a "real" cloverleaf (and besides, Maryland SHA has actively discouraged the construction of cloverleaf interchanges over the past several decades)).

The Baltimore metropolitan area has two - a "classic" stack at I-695 (Baltimore Beltway) and the eastern end of I-70 in Woodlawn, and an older "braided" interchange that is in the process of being completely converted to a modern stack at I-95 (JFK Highway) and I-695 in the Rossville or Overlea area (both are in Baltimore County).

[paulthemapguy]

Topography issues, older and more-established development, and less open space play factors as well.

This is the answer so far that has been the most on-point in my opinion...New England's infrastructure is rooted in much older development patterns.  Simply put, an area laid out based on 1787 standards is going to be less automobile-conscious than an area laid out in 1947.  This leads the Northeast to be an unfriendly landscape for tall stack interchanges due to a lack of available ROW.  In order to build large grandiose interchanges, you need lots of ROW.  Regulations on uphill and downhill grades mean that a certain amount of roadway length is required to achieve the height you need to build any flyover ramp over another traffic way.  With limited space, it's hard to build any interchange that doesn't have loop ramps and short weaving sections.  In a more general sense, building the Interstates largely took off in the '60s, and more urbanized development had occurred on the East Coast compared to most anywhere.  Texas has space.  New England doesn't.

[cl94]

Topography issues, older and more-established development, and less open space play factors as well.

This is the answer so far that has been the most on-point in my opinion...New England's infrastructure is rooted in much older development patterns.  Simply put, an area laid out based on 1787 standards is going to be less automobile-conscious than an area laid out in 1947.  This leads the Northeast to be an unfriendly landscape for tall stack interchanges due to a lack of available ROW.  In order to build large grandiose interchanges, you need lots of ROW.  Regulations on uphill and downhill grades mean that a certain amount of roadway length is required to achieve the height you need to build any flyover ramp over another traffic way.  With limited space, it's hard to build any interchange that doesn't have loop ramps and short weaving sections.  In a more general sense, building the Interstates largely took off in the '60s, and more urbanized development had occurred on the East Coast compared to most anywhere.  Texas has space.  New England doesn't.

Even bigger point: much of the network out here predates the Interstate system. Most of New York's expressways and parkways predate the mid-50s, as does 128 in Boston and just about every current/former toll road. What was built as part of the Interstate system often dates to no later than the mid 60s. That is well before infrastructure was constructed in the rest of the country excluding California, which has some of the same ROW issues.

[longhorn]

In Texas 4 or 5 level stacks are as common as trees, yet for example in DC, or NYC I noticed this piece of civic engineering does not exist in the northeast, why?

D.C.?  Perhaps the District of Columbia, yes. 

But have you heard of the Springfield Interchange (junction of I-95, I-395, I-495 and Va. 644) in Fairfax County. Not a classic-looking stack, but plenty tall, especially the soaring ramps that carry I-95 through the interchange.

The Maryland suburbs of D.C. do not have any stacks (the closest in terms of high ramps are at I-95/I-495 (Capital Beltway) and U.S. 50 (unsigned I-595, John Hanson Highway) in Prince George's County and at Md. 200 (ICC) and U.S. 29 in Montgomery County (which is a three level stack, built that way in part because there was not enough land for a "real" cloverleaf (and besides, Maryland SHA has actively discouraged the construction of cloverleaf interchanges over the past several decades)).

The Baltimore metropolitan area has two - a "classic" stack at I-695 (Baltimore Beltway) and the eastern end of I-70 in Woodlawn, and an older "braided" interchange that is in the process of being completely converted to a modern stack at I-95 (JFK Highway) and I-695 in the Rossville or Overlea area (both are in Baltimore County).

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.79102,-77.1760375,878m/data=!3m1!1e3

If you are referring to this, yes I am familiar with it. I have family that leave near this intersection and saw it rebuilt over the years. It was this intersection that got me wandering why there were not more stacks (though it a low level affair) like this one in the northeast. The posts have been educational to the reason why , some NIMBY, and ROW issues.

[longhorn]

Topography issues, older and more-established development, and less open space play factors as well.

This is the answer so far that has been the most on-point in my opinion...New England's infrastructure is rooted in much older development patterns.  Simply put, an area laid out based on 1787 standards is going to be less automobile-conscious than an area laid out in 1947.  This leads the Northeast to be an unfriendly landscape for tall stack interchanges due to a lack of available ROW.  In order to build large grandiose interchanges, you need lots of ROW.  Regulations on uphill and downhill grades mean that a certain amount of roadway length is required to achieve the height you need to build any flyover ramp over another traffic way.  With limited space, it's hard to build any interchange that doesn't have loop ramps and short weaving sections.  In a more general sense, building the Interstates largely took off in the '60s, and more urbanized development had occurred on the East Coast compared to most anywhere.  Texas has space.  New England doesn't.

I understand what you are stating, but we have examples in Texas where stacks were built on land with limited ROW, example the 410/280 interchange where before there were NOT an interchange, not even a cloverleaf (long story, and it involved NIMBYs when originally built).

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.5201989,-98.4828026,3a,75y,100.65h,83.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjWsSjGNlS8Jr3Jm9LbrhRg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

It involved long, very long onramps to gain the necessary elevation to work. However, as some posts here have stated, I do not think Northeasterners would stand for such a sight near their homes, no matter how ethically pleasing one tries to make a stack look.

There is no wrong or right viewpoint, I just find it interesting the difference in cultures.

[cl94]

What makes the Springfield Interchange so crazy is the presence of HOT lanes that have a full set of movements. If it were a stack, it would be at least 5 levels.

[mariethefoxy]

wasnt there some really crazy double decker stack interchange type thing on I-195 in Falls River?

[cl94]

wasnt there some really crazy double decker stack interchange type thing on I-195 in Falls River?

Yeah, there was. 4 levels in places, as the elevated double-decker expressway passed UNDER the I-195 bridge. Work started a year or two ago to get rid of it and make the area a bit less crazy.

[Alex4897]

Even Delaware, where DelDOT can seemingly do anything it pleases, keeps its interchanges to a minimum height.  2 of the biggest interchanges in the state: 95/295/495 and 95/1 are both 2 levels.  I'm sure if I thought long and hard about it I'll find one that's 3 levels, but nothing off the top of my head.

The 95/1 interchange could be considered a 3 level. You've got 1/7 on the bottom, 95 on the middle, then the flyovers on top.  Granted they don't cross each other at a single point, but I don't think calling it a two level does it justice.

[MrDisco99]

The Deegan/Cross-Bronx "high bridge" interchange (I-87/I-95) is technically a stack... partly BECAUSE of the lack of right of way, and the huge grade delta.

[longhorn]

The Deegan/Cross-Bronx "high bridge" interchange (I-87/I-95) is technically a stack... partly BECAUSE of the lack of right of way, and the huge grade delta.

"huge grade delta"..............Roller coaster enthusiasts would give that I-95 to I-87 north off ramp a thumbs up!

[ixnay]

The Deegan/Cross-Bronx "high bridge" interchange (I-87/I-95) is technically a stack... partly BECAUSE of the lack of right of way, and the huge grade delta.

"huge grade delta"..............Roller coaster enthusiasts would give that I-95 to I-87 north off ramp a thumbs up!

Somewhere Robert Moses is smiling.

ixnay

[ixnay]

Topography issues, older and more-established development, and less open space play factors as well.

This is the answer so far that has been the most on-point in my opinion...New England's infrastructure is rooted in much older development patterns.  Simply put, an area laid out based on 1787 standards is going to be less automobile-conscious than an area laid out in 1947.  This leads the Northeast to be an unfriendly landscape for tall stack interchanges due to a lack of available ROW.  In order to build large grandiose interchanges, you need lots of ROW.  Regulations on uphill and downhill grades mean that a certain amount of roadway length is required to achieve the height you need to build any flyover ramp over another traffic way.  With limited space, it's hard to build any interchange that doesn't have loop ramps and short weaving sections.  In a more general sense, building the Interstates largely took off in the '60s, and more urbanized development had occurred on the East Coast compared to most anywhere.  Texas has space.  New England doesn't.

I understand what you are stating, but we have examples in Texas where stacks were built on land with limited ROW, example the 410/280 interchange where before there were NOT an interchange, not even a cloverleaf (long story, and it involved NIMBYs when originally built).

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.5201989,-98.4828026,3a,75y,100.65h,83.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjWsSjGNlS8Jr3Jm9LbrhRg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

It involved long, very long onramps to gain the necessary elevation to work. However, as some posts here have stated, I do not think Northeasterners would stand for such a sight near their homes, no matter how ethically pleasing one tries to make a stack look.

There is no wrong or right viewpoint, I just find it interesting the difference in cultures.

Limited ROW or not, that interchange still looks very Texan.  High Five South, although it's only 4 levels.

ixnay

[roadman]

wasnt there some really crazy double decker stack interchange type thing on I-195 in Falls River?

Yeah, there was. 4 levels in places, as the elevated double-decker expressway passed UNDER the I-195 bridge. Work started a year or two ago to get rid of it and make the area a bit less crazy.

http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/route79project/Home.aspx

[Gnutella]

PennDOT has built a couple of three-level stacks: one at the junction of I-279 and I-579 in Pittsburgh, and one the junction of I-81 and I-84 in Scranton. One highway ends at both of those interchanges, though, so they're only three levels. The junction of I-79 and I-376 in Pittsburgh is a three-level "cloverstack." Loop ramps are still used for movements from I-79 north to I-376 west, and I-79 south to I-376 east, and it's likely to stay that way since traffic volumes on those ramps aren't heavy enough to justify flyovers. They're also about to rebuild the junction of I-83 and I-283 in Harrisburg, and that one could end up as a four-level stack since it also serves U.S. 322.

[CentralPAGal]

To expand on Gnutella's comments on PA, the I-81/US 22/322 interchange north of Harrisburg is almost a four level stack (if a single flyover ramp counts as a level).

Also, something else I have not seen mentioned regarding design in the northeast vs places like Texas: Frontage roads. Not very prominent around these parts, but they're always incorporated in to interchanges in TX.

[cl94]

To expand on Gnutella's comments on PA, the I-81/US 22/322 interchange north of Harrisburg is almost a four level stack (if a single flyover ramp counts as a level).

Also, something else I have not seen mentioned regarding design in the northeast vs places like Texas: Frontage roads. Not very prominent around these parts, but they're always incorporated in to interchanges in TX.

Texas is one of the only places I've seen that has frontage roads everywhere.

And as far as frontage roads in the northeast, downstate New York. Several of the expressways and parkways have them. One in Buffalo has them as well.

[vdeane]

NY 104 has a couple sets of frontage roads.  But yeah, they're not nearly as common here as they are out west, and nowhere does them as much as Texas.