If you could shut down one business...

[wanderer2575]

How about collection agencies!  They are scum making money off of other people's misfortunes and the fact they have the power to ruin your Fico score.  The worst is when they come after you for a hospital bill that is a day late!

Or -- and I know this is a wild idea -- you could just pay the bill on time.  Or take some proactive responsibility and contact the creditor ahead of time to work out an arrangement if paying the entire amount on the due date will be a problem.

Fact is hospitals and ERs nowadays do not send out final warnings anymore.  Just one bill followed by another and then without warning the collections call you.

"One bill followed by another"?  Just how many times do you need to be told you have an outstanding debt that you need to deal with?

You seem to have no problem availing yourself of services and then copping an attitude when the vendor dares to collect payment for them.

[JKRhodes]

How about collection agencies!  They are scum making money off of other people's misfortunes and the fact they have the power to ruin your Fico score.  The worst is when they come after you for a hospital bill that is a day late!

Or -- and I know this is a wild idea -- you could just pay the bill on time.  Or take some proactive responsibility and contact the creditor ahead of time to work out an arrangement if paying the entire amount on the due date will be a problem.

Fact is hospitals and ERs nowadays do not send out final warnings anymore.  Just one bill followed by another and then without warning the collections call you.

"One bill followed by another"?  Just how many times do you need to be told you have an outstanding debt that you need to deal with?

You seem to have no problem availing yourself of services and then copping an attitude when the vendor dares to collect payment for them.

There was a time in this country when insurance was cheap, and a $50 copay covered everything associated with an ER visit. Nowadays a family would be lucky to score a "good"  insurance plan whose premium costs less than twice their mortgage in premiums per month; a trip to the ER costs $250 just to get in the door, assuming the hospital is in network, and any doctor, radiology company, or other entity with a pulse and title beyond their name who do much as breathes in the patient, gets to bill separately for the services they rendered... so yes, it's conceivable, and very common, that a single hospital visit will result in "bill after bill,"  hard to keep track and ultimately going to collections.

[vdeane]

Plus many systems are automated these days.  If you get mis-charged, even calling with a dispute doesn't help.  I was mis-charged over some lab work about a year ago.  I got a bill for way too much and called to dispute it.  They said to talk to the insurance.  Called the insurance, they mistakenly processed the bill as out of network even though the place is in network.  Simple, right?  Wrong.  Still needs to go through all their bureaucratic review, which can take a LONG time.  During that time, even though the facility knew I had disputed the bill and had referred me to the insurance, they still sent me two more bills, with late charges, before the insurance company finally reprocessed the claim correctly and I got a bill for the correct amount.  I was worried sick the whole time that someone would turn the matter over to collections before the insurance company would reprocess everything.

[kphoger]

My co-worker has actually successfully fired a collection agent (from her case, not the agency).  She learned what steps to go through and actually got the collection agent off her case, then straightened out the bill(s) herself directly.

[J N Winkler]

I sometimes wonder if house flippers should be subject to disintermediation.  I have friends who bought a house from a flipper, only to discover the front part needed shoring (big bucks), the interior remodelling did not extend to painting behind toilet tanks, and bottom-tier replacements were installed for all fixed kitchen appliances (stove, dishwasher, etc.).

[NWI_Irish96]

I sometimes wonder if house flippers should be subject to disintermediation.  I have friends who bought a house from a flipper, only to discover the front part needed shoring (big bucks), the interior remodelling did not extend to painting behind toilet tanks, and bottom-tier replacements were installed for all fixed kitchen appliances (stove, dishwasher, etc.).

Sound more like home inspectors need the boot and not the flipper.

[SP Cook]

House flippers.  It is like any other form of house.  Some are well built, some are not.  That is why you need inspectors.

Collection agencies.  I have no problem with legitimate collection agencies.  Pay your bills.  Don't buy things you cannot afford.  The issue is a lot of these deals are just lowlifes and work at home moms that cannot find a real job.  They buy "bad paper"  for cents on the $ and try to "work"  it.  Once informed that you do not owe the debt, they MUST, by law, either sue you or STFU.  Many do not.

[Mark68]

Once informed that you do not owe the debt, they MUST, by law, either sue you or STFU.  Many do not.

This is my issue with Conn's. Apparently, though, they have a habit of leaving accounts "open" even when they've been paid in full and later come after consumers saying they owe--basically "interest" on a balance that was already paid off.

[Scott5114]

An issue with medical bills that leads to debt is that there is no way to make an informed financial decision about a procedure before having it done. Hospitals have a "Blue Book" type of in-house publication that describes what the base price is for each procedure and code is. Since the insurance companies are going to negotiate the prices down, the book prices are grotesquely inflated, with common procedures costing five figures, simple medical supplies like tongue depressors costing $10 each, etc. That means if you don't have insurance, they charge the full book value of everything, and if you do, they can't tell you the price because they don't know how the negotiation is going to turn out.

Of course, if you are in an emergency situation you definitely will not have time to shop around for prices even if you could. You may not even have the luxury of choosing a provider that your insurance likes. And even if you did, you may not even be able to make your wishes known.

That's why I would have no moral objection to stiffing the medical industry if I got a bill I couldn't pay. I am not going to choose to die because they demand more money than I have. Fuck them; my life comes before capitalism.

[ce929wax]

Scott5114 FTW.

[formulanone]

I sometimes wonder if house flippers should be subject to disintermediation.  I have friends who bought a house from a flipper, only to discover the front part needed shoring (big bucks), the interior remodelling did not extend to painting behind toilet tanks, and bottom-tier replacements were installed for all fixed kitchen appliances (stove, dishwasher, etc.).

House flippers.  It is like any other form of house.  Some are well built, some are not.  That is why you need inspectors.

It's also not up to a home inspector to note the brand quality of the A/C unit, dishwasher, thermostat, et al...just that it functions safely and properly. A trustworthy one might clue you into the quality of it, but they just need to tread the fine lines of the law. Sometimes they will make suggestions, but not requirements. For example...

We had a slightly leaky bathtub nozzle on our last house, and the inspector found a minor fault with that item. It was not a required fix, because the pipes inside the wall weren't the cause of the drip; I decided to fix it by removing the old one and replacing it with new. I didn't want the buyer to feel they'd wasted their money on the inspector. Off with the old nozzle, onto the new one...but I managed to make righty-tighty work exactly the same as lefty-loosy by applying a little too much torque! I then had to purchase and install new copper fitting along with another nozzle, thankfully without destroying any more of the tub walls to get it back on.

$40 and 3-4 hours of my time later, I realized that I should have ignored my sense of goodwill. On the other hand, I didn't realize how strong I really was with a pipe wrench...and I learned a little about how to fix something like that in the future.

Also, painting behind the toilet is a major league bitch. I've had enough practice removing the tanks and assembling it (to the point I actually feel confident enough to troubleshoot them!) but the painter probably isn't as careful and won't spend the 60 minutes for removal and disassembly.

How about collection agencies!  They are scum making money off of other people's misfortunes and the fact they have the power to ruin your Fico score.  The worst is when they come after you for a hospital bill that is a day late!

Or -- and I know this is a wild idea -- you could just pay the bill on time.  Or take some proactive responsibility and contact the creditor ahead of time to work out an arrangement if paying the entire amount on the due date will be a problem.

Fact is hospitals and ERs nowadays do not send out final warnings anymore.  Just one bill followed by another and then without warning the collections call you.

"One bill followed by another"?  Just how many times do you need to be told you have an outstanding debt that you need to deal with?

You seem to have no problem availing yourself of services and then copping an attitude when the vendor dares to collect payment for them.

If we were talking about a car payment, or some line of credit with a rent-to-own establishment, I'd agree. You get a single bill on a regular frequency, and if you can't pay, you pretty much deserve to have anything repossessed that you haven't fully paid for, if you meet the agreed requirements for such a situation. I don't like the fact it might haunt you for a long time, creating a deeper hole to dig out of when and if one's financial situation rights itself, but I can understand from a lender's perspective as well. Bad credit ruins it for others, as well.

But the healthcare system doesn't work that way; you might be 3-5 separate bills for a major visit, even the planned birth of a child. Insurance companies do a piss-poor job of keeping up with it all, let alone the negotiated pricing which is some sort of grab-bag sorcery. You waste a lot of time on the phone and following up with the work that you're paying for, let alone any pain you're dealing with because your recuperation means the hospital isn't making as wide a profit margin. If any other pair of industries approached that level of shadiness and shoddiness, they'd be sued out of existence. Even if you make all the necessary payments, it's 6-12 months until the dust settles.

[J N Winkler]

I sometimes wonder if house flippers should be subject to disintermediation.  I have friends who bought a house from a flipper, only to discover the front part needed shoring (big bucks), the interior remodelling did not extend to painting behind toilet tanks, and bottom-tier replacements were installed for all fixed kitchen appliances (stove, dishwasher, etc.).

House flippers.  It is like any other form of house.  Some are well built, some are not.  That is why you need inspectors.

It's also not up to a home inspector to note the brand quality of the A/C unit, dishwasher, thermostat, et al...just that it functions safely and properly. A trustworthy one might clue you into the quality of it, but they just need to tread the fine lines of the law. Sometimes they will make suggestions, but not requirements.

It is also not a given that one's state licenses home inspectors.  In Kansas a widespread problem with unqualified fly-by-night operators led the industry association to successfully press the Legislature to require licensing about a decade ago, but the law had a sunset provision, and a few years ago Governor Brownback vetoed a bill that would have cancelled the sunset.

On the other hand, I didn't realize how strong I really was with a pipe wrench...and I learned a little about how to fix something like that in the future.

I had that lesson when I attempted to replace a fuel filter on a 1978 Chevy Impala.  Anything with a hollow section is tricky.

Also, painting behind the toilet is a major league bitch. I've had enough practice removing the tanks and assembling it (to the point I actually feel confident enough to troubleshoot them!) but the painter probably isn't as careful and won't spend the 60 minutes for removal and disassembly.

We had a painter come in several years ago to strip wallpaper off the walls in our half bathroom and then prime and paint them.  It was accepted as given that the toilet tank would be removed and reset as part of the job.  I believe the toilet pipe grommets and toilet paper holder cover plate were also lifted rather than masked.

I understand the argument that people have to take responsibility for their choices and that there is a dimension of choice in the extent to which consumers research, and safeguard against, the information asymmetries that confront them in the marketplace.  It is just that I see flippers (not just of houses--there are car flippers too) as poisoning the marketplace.  Not only do they put intending dwellers in the position of having to pay twice to obtain fit-out that suits their preferences, but the cosmetic modifications they execute hide scrimshanking and make it difficult to identify the scope of maintenance that has been neglected by past long-term owners.

Put it this way:  if you are a DIYer and you are willing to take on a fixer-upper (defined as a habitable and structurally sound property that has not been updated in decades), you are in a more advantageous position if you do not have to compete with flippers.

If we were talking about a car payment, or some line of credit with a rent-to-own establishment, I'd agree. You get a single bill on a regular frequency, and if you can't pay, you pretty much deserve to have anything repossessed that you haven't fully paid for, if you meet the agreed requirements for such a situation. I don't like the fact it might haunt you for a long time, creating a deeper hole to dig out of when and if one's financial situation rights itself, but I can understand from a lender's perspective as well. Bad credit ruins it for others, as well.

But the healthcare system doesn't work that way; you might be 3-5 separate bills for a major visit, even the planned birth of a child. Insurance companies do a piss-poor job of keeping up with it all, let alone the negotiated pricing which is some sort of grab-bag sorcery. You waste a lot of time on the phone and following up with the work that you're paying for, let alone any pain you're dealing with because your recuperation means the hospital isn't making as wide a profit margin. If any other pair of industries approached that level of shadiness and shoddiness, they'd be sued out of existence. Even if you make all the necessary payments, it's 6-12 months until the dust settles.

The fundamental reality is that the US health care system has engendered a medical billing industry that operates to destroy price transparency and drive up out-turn cost for medical procedures.  There is also an element of unconscionability in how insurance companies make in- and out-of-network determinations, with significant implications for out-of-pocket cost for the consumer.

[formulanone]

I sometimes wonder if house flippers should be subject to disintermediation.  I have friends who bought a house from a flipper, only to discover the front part needed shoring (big bucks), the interior remodelling did not extend to painting behind toilet tanks, and bottom-tier replacements were installed for all fixed kitchen appliances (stove, dishwasher, etc.).

House flippers.  It is like any other form of house.  Some are well built, some are not.  That is why you need inspectors.

It's also not up to a home inspector to note the brand quality of the A/C unit, dishwasher, thermostat, et al...just that it functions safely and properly. A trustworthy one might clue you into the quality of it, but they just need to tread the fine lines of the law. Sometimes they will make suggestions, but not requirements.

It is also not a given that one's state licenses home inspectors.  In Kansas a widespread problem with unqualified fly-by-night operators led the industry association to successfully press the Legislature to require licensing about a decade ago, but the law had a sunset provision, and a few years ago Governor Brownback vetoed a bill that would have cancelled the sunset.

Having sold our homes in Florida and Alabama, they each had to be state-licensed in their respective state. Looking at the licensing requirements in Alabama, it's definitely not an overnight process: passing two tests in a required 18 month span means you have to keep your current employment active. (Although, I think few places would have a full-time home inspector based on the ever-changing housing market; for many people, it seems like a handy side gig.)

That's discouraging, though...I'd like a lot more confidence in home buying, but I have to imagine it was also something of a middleman that didn't exist 30 years ago, until liability, more uncertainty, unscrupulous salesmen/realtors, and less overall handyman know-how created that cycle.

[Scott5114]

We were burned right after the purchase of our first home by a big plumbing repair bill to replace a broken p-trap that required going in under the slab to fix (and thus around $1,000 to fix). The home inspector was no help; their warranty only covered visible fixtures and whether or not they were working. Anything under the slab was out of his scope.

[US71]

If we were talking about a car payment, or some line of credit with a rent-to-own establishment, I'd agree. You get a single bill on a regular frequency, and if you can't pay, you pretty much deserve to have anything repossessed that you haven't fully paid for, if you meet the agreed requirements for such a situation. I don't like the fact it might haunt you for a long time, creating a deeper hole to dig out of when and if one's financial situation rights itself, but I can understand from a lender's perspective as well. Bad credit ruins it for others, as well.

What if you get into a bad situation because you suddenly have medical bills?  "Oh you're sick. You deserve to have your car taken away".  Next we'll have insurance that says "We don't feel like paying your medical costs"... oh wait: we already to.

[roadman65]

How about collection agencies!  They are scum making money off of other people's misfortunes and the fact they have the power to ruin your Fico score.  The worst is when they come after you for a hospital bill that is a day late!

Or -- and I know this is a wild idea -- you could just pay the bill on time.  Or take some proactive responsibility and contact the creditor ahead of time to work out an arrangement if paying the entire amount on the due date will be a problem.

Fact is hospitals and ERs nowadays do not send out final warnings anymore.  Just one bill followed by another and then without warning the collections call you.

"One bill followed by another"?  Just how many times do you need to be told you have an outstanding debt that you need to deal with?

You seem to have no problem availing yourself of services and then copping an attitude when the vendor dares to collect payment for them.

People do not become delinquent on their own.  In my case it was cause I was having health issues. As far as them being scum, they are if they stoop low to harass people who owe money for whatever reason.  The law actually protects us from them and that is why if they call you too much they can get fined and owe you money.

Before you jump in, know the facts!   Do not get political.  BTW I pay to the people I owe the money to and not third parties who have no business being in other people's business anyway.

Speaking of copping an attitude, what is your excuse?  You seem like I hurt your feelings!  Do you own an agency? 

[SectorZ]

I'm with the rage against collection agencies, only for sketchy things they pull that I will outline here.

For a month, I've been getting calls twice daily from one of them. The message was vague and I never called back, I just blocked the number. This thread pushed me to actually call and see what they were calling about, because I knew with 99% surety that it wasn't something my wife or I owed.

I confirmed they were looking for a relative who never lived at my address and never had my home phone number. I *suspected* it was this person they were looking for because it was the most rationale guess and I once got a one-off call for him from his then auto leasing company when he stopped paying his car lease. The agency said they'd stop calling accordingly after I told them this.

But - this pisses me off to no end. My home number is easily confirmed online thru a reverse lookup to be in my name and my address. Somehow they linked my wife's relation to this person (when the phone number doesn't even have my wife's name attached to it) and just started calling. That bugs me. A lot.

[formulanone]

What if you get into a bad situation because you suddenly have medical bills?  "Oh you're sick. You deserve to have your car taken away".

You have 90 days to make payments; some allow for a one-time forbearance under the duress of medical conditions. I understand that a vehicle is the only way for many people to get a job and keep employment - and thus an income stream - in the first place. Being in the dealership world, there's a measure of insanity that goes with a $400-500 monthly payment with lower financing compared to a used vehicle outlet which offers a payment for half of that but with a steeper annual rate. How the typical buyer has desired ever-more expensive vehicles is still one of the great head-scratchers after all the excuses of "showing off" have been played out.

But it shouldn't be a safety net for the few who rack up a tremendous amounts of unnecessary debt without the bottom line ability to cover those expenses. I don't agree with it hurting your credit if your items are re-possessed (maybe a limit after there's been a lot of repossessions) for genuine medical reasons, but I think we can agree that losing that rent-to-own entertainment center and seating for five isn't worth complaining about.

There's a lot of fine lines amongst the nebulous gray areas in that territory.

[Rothman]

Just need universal health care...

[renegade]

I'm with the rage against collection agencies, only for sketchy things they pull that I will outline here.

For a month, I've been getting calls twice daily from one of them. The message was vague and I never called back, I just blocked the number. This thread pushed me to actually call and see what they were calling about, because I knew with 99% surety that it wasn't something my wife or I owed.

I confirmed they were looking for a relative who never lived at my address and never had my home phone number. I *suspected* it was this person they were looking for because it was the most rationale guess and I once got a one-off call for him from his then auto leasing company when he stopped paying his car lease. The agency said they'd stop calling accordingly after I told them this.

But - this pisses me off to no end. My home number is easily confirmed online thru a reverse lookup to be in my name and my address. Somehow they linked my wife's relation to this person (when the phone number doesn't even have my wife's name attached to it) and just started calling. That bugs me. A lot.

If your wife’s relative has ever put one or both of you as a reference, then that is possibly why you were called.  I heard from my brother’s finance company shortly before his car was repossessed.

I have a slightly different story.  The people who lived in our house before we purchased it were deadbeats.  The very day the phone was turned on, with a new number, the collection agency called looking for them.   I’ve had to have the landline disconnected.  I don’t think I can ever have one again. Ten years later, we still get mail addressed for them.  It’s almost as if they’re still using our address.

[US71]

Just need universal health care...

But if we have that, someone I don't like might benefit.  </s>

[jeffandnicole]

I'm with the rage against collection agencies, only for sketchy things they pull that I will outline here.

For a month, I've been getting calls twice daily from one of them. The message was vague and I never called back, I just blocked the number. This thread pushed me to actually call and see what they were calling about, because I knew with 99% surety that it wasn't something my wife or I owed.

I confirmed they were looking for a relative who never lived at my address and never had my home phone number. I *suspected* it was this person they were looking for because it was the most rationale guess and I once got a one-off call for him from his then auto leasing company when he stopped paying his car lease. The agency said they'd stop calling accordingly after I told them this.

But - this pisses me off to no end. My home number is easily confirmed online thru a reverse lookup to be in my name and my address. Somehow they linked my wife's relation to this person (when the phone number doesn't even have my wife's name attached to it) and just started calling. That bugs me. A lot.

If your wife's relative has ever put one or both of you as a reference, then that is possibly why you were called.  I heard from my brother's finance company shortly before his car was repossessed.

I have a slightly different story.  The people who lived in our house before we purchased it were deadbeats.  The very day the phone was turned on, with a new number, the collection agency called looking for them.   I've had to have the landline disconnected.  I don't think I can ever have one again. Ten years later, we still get mail addressed for them.  It's almost as if they're still using our address.

I had a Honda Accord (at least I believe it was that car...I've owned many Hondas).  After my lease was up, I turned it in for another vehicle.  Later on, I started receiving phone calls from what appeared to be creditors for a Jacqueline Tucker.  I don't recall how I figured it out, but I think she was the person who must've bought my car after I turned it in.  Ironically, she has the same initials as me.  There must have been some paperwork associated with the car that kept my phone number, and eventually her credit calls started coming my way.  They go in waves...I'll get a bunch in a short period of time, then I won't hear from any again for a while.  Interestingly enough, she's also Facebook friends with a co-worker of mine, who gave me a brief history of how they're associated!

[Scott5114]

Ten years later, we still get mail addressed for them.  It's almost as if they're still using our address.

I still get mail at my house from two owners back. I think that's kind of standard fare anymore. Address gets into some business's database, they don't subscribe to the USPS Change of Address service, and they never update it...

I have a self-inking No Longer At This Address stamp that I use on any mail addressed to someone else. Then I put it back in the mailbox unopened and the USPS returns to sender. I figure the hassle and wasted postage from getting their own mail back should be enough to make some businesses delete my address from the database. I still keep getting one lady's annual investment report booklet though. Guess the brokerage just doesn't care.

[GaryV]

We finally stopped (about 10 years ago) getting a newsletter for the mother of the people who we bought the house from.  We bought the house 30 years ago.  The current owners were retiring Up North.  How old must that mother have been?

[SectorZ]

I'm with the rage against collection agencies, only for sketchy things they pull that I will outline here.

For a month, I've been getting calls twice daily from one of them. The message was vague and I never called back, I just blocked the number. This thread pushed me to actually call and see what they were calling about, because I knew with 99% surety that it wasn't something my wife or I owed.

I confirmed they were looking for a relative who never lived at my address and never had my home phone number. I *suspected* it was this person they were looking for because it was the most rationale guess and I once got a one-off call for him from his then auto leasing company when he stopped paying his car lease. The agency said they'd stop calling accordingly after I told them this.

But - this pisses me off to no end. My home number is easily confirmed online thru a reverse lookup to be in my name and my address. Somehow they linked my wife's relation to this person (when the phone number doesn't even have my wife's name attached to it) and just started calling. That bugs me. A lot.

If your wife's relative has ever put one or both of you as a reference, then that is possibly why you were called.  I heard from my brother's finance company shortly before his car was repossessed.

I have a slightly different story.  The people who lived in our house before we purchased it were deadbeats.  The very day the phone was turned on, with a new number, the collection agency called looking for them.   I've had to have the landline disconnected.  I don't think I can ever have one again. Ten years later, we still get mail addressed for them.  It's almost as if they're still using our address.

My wife asked him that question and he claims he didn't, but he also lies a lot so who knows. He could have. I watch our credit like a hawk because I fear he could have tried to pull something worse.

I also had the same situation as you in reverse. When I bought my first house and got a landline, the previous owner of said phone number had a hard time paying bills. Got calls from 2005 finally ending around 2010 or so. Thankfully the house was new construction so no unpaid bills at the address at least.