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Regional Boards => Mid-Atlantic => Topic started by: Alex on April 07, 2009, 01:22:25 PM

Title: District of Columbia
Post by: Alex on April 07, 2009, 01:22:25 PM
Read this on the Yahoo! Groups today:

http://cms.transportation.org/sites/route/docs/AASHTO-FHWA%20DC%20I-295%20and%20I-695.pdf (http://cms.transportation.org/sites/route/docs/AASHTO-FHWA%20DC%20I-295%20and%20%5C)


The request addresses the truncation of Interstate 295 from Capital Boulevard southward to the Anacostia Freeway and extends Interstate 695 southeast in its place. It also covers the elimination of unbuilt Interstate 295 mileage for the canceled freeway leading northeast near RFK Stadium.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mightyace on April 07, 2009, 01:41:47 PM
The link as shown didn't work.  I pieced it together though.

http://cms.transportation.org/sites/route/docs/AASHTO-FHWA%20DC%20I-295%20and%20I-695.pdf (http://cms.transportation.org/sites/route/docs/AASHTO-FHWA%20DC%20I-295%20and%20I-695.pdf)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Chris on April 07, 2009, 02:16:38 PM
Uhm, what about I-695 in Maryland already existing? Wouldn't that confuse people, an I-695 in DC and in Baltimore? I thought they wanted to avoid identical numbers close to eachother...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on April 07, 2009, 05:39:31 PM
I don't think I-695 in DC is signed as an interstate.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alex on April 07, 2009, 06:37:29 PM
The current one is unsigned as Interstate 695; signs instead indicate the connections to Interstate 295 or 395.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on April 07, 2009, 06:50:03 PM
BTW I wouldn't know any confusion over I-295 and MD 295(the Baltimore-Washington Pkwy once it leaves the National Park Service section). :nod:
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Bryant5493 on April 07, 2009, 07:33:19 PM
Quick question: I've looked up Baltimore-Washington Parkway? Why is the section between MD 201 and MD 295 maintained by the NPS? Is there a park or something that the freeway runs through, or what?


Be well,

Bryant
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Bryant5493 on April 07, 2009, 10:31:36 PM
^^ Oh, okay. Thanks a lot, froggie.

Be well,

Bryant
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on July 08, 2009, 11:26:45 AM
DC metro area now ranks second to Los Angeles in congestion  http://www.dgshi.cn/content/200907/081084.html (http://www.dgshi.cn/content/200907/081084.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Chris on July 08, 2009, 02:20:36 PM
Not really a surprise, if you think about it. Recession kicks in, people losing jobs and drive less. However, the government (DC) will keep running, so DC metro is probably less impacted by the recession, so traffic congestion doesn't decrease like other places.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on July 08, 2009, 02:43:33 PM
There's also the BRAC realignment into Ft Belvoir coming soon so that's another factor into rising congestion there
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 08, 2009, 03:49:10 PM
There are several BRAC realignments at play...but those haven't occurred yet so they wouldn't have had an impact on traffic around here.

I'd also like to point out that MWCOG (the regional MPO) did a recent traffic study that runs somewhat counter to the Texas A&M study...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alex on September 20, 2009, 12:45:19 PM
When did the District of Columbia add exit numbers to Interstate 395?

Unnumbered exit in early 2008: https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/district_of_columbia/i-395_sb_exit_002a_01.jpg (https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/district_of_columbia/i-395_sb_exit_002a_01.jpg)

Now Exit 5: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=washington,+dc&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52.505328,78.662109&ie=UTF8&ll=38.882515,-77.016413&spn=0.012728,0.02738&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.882523,-77.016595&panoid=Qy9xZpunxaqXzheYGEaeLQ&cbp=12,251.65,,0,12.83 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=washington,+dc&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52.505328,78.662109&ie=UTF8&ll=38.882515,-77.016413&spn=0.012728,0.02738&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.882523,-77.016595&panoid=Qy9xZpunxaqXzheYGEaeLQ&cbp=12,251.65,,0,12.83)

Does anyone have an exit number list posted?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on September 20, 2009, 01:12:30 PM
QuoteWhen did the District of Columbia add exit numbers to Interstate 395?
I'm not sure but I know they were there when I went with my family to see the Nats back in July ;-)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on September 20, 2009, 04:06:19 PM
The numbers have been there for several months. They were there in April when I passed through.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alex on September 20, 2009, 07:57:20 PM
I never noticed this stub on the southbound D.C. 295 before: http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=38.884527~-76.96327&style=h&lvl=17&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1 (http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=38.884527~-76.96327&style=h&lvl=17&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1)

Any ideas of what was its intended use was?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on September 20, 2009, 09:47:08 PM
http://www.roadstothefuture.com/DC_Interstate_Fwy.html (http://www.roadstothefuture.com/DC_Interstate_Fwy.html) remarkably does NOT have this one in there.  I noticed it before and I'm, pardon the semi-pun, stumped.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on September 21, 2009, 09:11:45 AM
The exit numbers on I-395 were installed middle of last year.  There was a discussion on Tim Reichard's Clinched Highway Mapping forum (http://clinched.s2.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=15&mforum=clinched) on the subject.

The stub on DC 295 was intended for the mid-90s planned but never built Barney Circle Connector, which would've been a 4-lane freeway extension from Barney Circle across the river...the DC 295 bridge over the railroad was rehabbed back in the mid-90s, when the connector was also being planned.  Instead, the "missing movements" between the Southeast Freeway and DC 295 will be added as part of the 11th Street Bridge project.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mefailenglish on September 23, 2009, 08:25:25 AM
11th Street Bridge construction moves forward:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dc/2009/09/11th_street_bridge_plans_get_i.html?hpid=topnews (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dc/2009/09/11th_street_bridge_plans_get_i.html?hpid=topnews)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 05, 2012, 04:51:13 PM
Washington Post: D.C. raises record amount of revenue from parking tickets (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/post/dc-raises-record-amount-of-revenue-from-parking-tickets/2012/03/05/gIQAEeGXsR_blog.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 12, 2012, 05:23:13 PM
GreaterGreaterWashington: 6-year study suggests tweaks around 14th Street bridges (http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/14020/6-year-study-suggests-tweaks-to-14th-street-bridges/)

QuoteNear the Jefferson Memorial, 5 bridges cross the Potomac carrying motor vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, the Metro, and freight and passenger trains. How can they be improved?

QuoteThe Federal Highway Administration, DDOT, VDOT, and the National Park Service have been working on an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for the 14th Street Bridge corridor since 2006. They looked at the roads and paths on the bridges themselves and for some distance on and around I-395 and Route 1 (14th Street and Jefferson Davis Highway).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 04, 2012, 08:02:55 AM
D.C. Examiner: D.C. looks to let demand set parking rates (http://washingtonexaminer.com/local/dc-news/2012/05/dc-looks-let-demand-set-parking-rates/569231)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on May 04, 2012, 03:32:07 PM
On a different note, for those who like old-school pedestrian signals, they still exist at 13th and Pennsylvania NW.  There's a few others I noticed today in Capitol Hill East that, while more modern, don't have the countdown signals that most DC signals have.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 15, 2012, 11:15:14 AM
Dr. Gridlock reports DC is adding some new speed camera locations. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/post/dc-speed-camera-locations-expanding-by-25/2012/05/15/gIQAda7ARU_blog.html)

The most notable ones are on both sides of I-395 near Exit 4 (eastbound, that's the exit marked "Maine Avenue/SW Waterfront/Nationals Park"; westbound, it's where the road splits with Maine Avenue and 12th Street traffic exiting to the right). The speed limit there is 40 mph and if you try to drive that slowly you put yourself in serious danger. It's unclear whether that's going to be a fixed or mobile camera location. Dr. Gridlock linked DC's listing of camera sites, and that list indicates mobile, but I noted a number of other instances of outdated information and flat-out mistakes on DC's list.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on May 15, 2012, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2012, 11:15:14 AM
Dr. Gridlock reports DC is adding some new speed camera locations. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/post/dc-speed-camera-locations-expanding-by-25/2012/05/15/gIQAda7ARU_blog.html)

The most notable ones are on both sides of I-395 near Exit 4 (eastbound, that's the exit marked "Maine Avenue/SW Waterfront/Nationals Park"; westbound, it's where the road splits with Maine Avenue and 12th Street traffic exiting to the right). The speed limit there is 40 mph and if you try to drive that slowly you put yourself in serious danger. It's unclear whether that's going to be a fixed or mobile camera location.

That location is on the commuting route to the U.S. Capitol of many congresscritters and their staffers who live in Virginia.  It'll be interesting to see what kind of blowback comes from them, once they start getting tickets in the mail.

Eastbound, that location for a time had a temporary work zone speed limit of 45mph, higher than the regular limit of 40mph.  I take that as yet more evidence that the 40mph limit is underposted, as D.C. is wont to do.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 15, 2012, 05:57:59 PM
Quote from: oscar on May 15, 2012, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2012, 11:15:14 AM
Dr. Gridlock reports DC is adding some new speed camera locations. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/post/dc-speed-camera-locations-expanding-by-25/2012/05/15/gIQAda7ARU_blog.html)

The most notable ones are on both sides of I-395 near Exit 4 (eastbound, that's the exit marked "Maine Avenue/SW Waterfront/Nationals Park"; westbound, it's where the road splits with Maine Avenue and 12th Street traffic exiting to the right). The speed limit there is 40 mph and if you try to drive that slowly you put yourself in serious danger. It's unclear whether that's going to be a fixed or mobile camera location.

That location is on the commuting route to the U.S. Capitol of many congresscritters and their staffers who live in Virginia.  It'll be interesting to see what kind of blowback comes from them, once they start getting tickets in the mail.

Eastbound, that location for a time had a temporary work zone speed limit of 45mph, higher than the regular limit of 40mph.  I take that as yet more evidence that the 40mph limit is underposted, as D.C. is wont to do.

I wonder if the congressmen might claim immunity from ticketing under Article I, Section 6, clause 1:

QuoteThe Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.

I seem to recall a news report some years back about Frank Wolf being issued a speeding ticket in Fairfax County that the police department then revoked because of this provision since Wolf was on his way to Capitol Hill for a regular session of Congress, but Wolf then insisted they issue the ticket because he said that's not the sort of thing for which this provision was intended. I might be mistaken about the facts; it may have been a car crash where he was at fault. Either way, if the story is true I think his point is valid. A constitutional provision of this sort should not be interpreted as giving the congressmen the right to break every law they choose without fear of penalty. We already run into that problem enough with the embassies and their people with Diplomat plates.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 15, 2012, 06:37:34 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2012, 05:57:59 PM
Quote from: oscar on May 15, 2012, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2012, 11:15:14 AM
Dr. Gridlock reports DC is adding some new speed camera locations. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/post/dc-speed-camera-locations-expanding-by-25/2012/05/15/gIQAda7ARU_blog.html)

The most notable ones are on both sides of I-395 near Exit 4 (eastbound, that's the exit marked "Maine Avenue/SW Waterfront/Nationals Park"; westbound, it's where the road splits with Maine Avenue and 12th Street traffic exiting to the right). The speed limit there is 40 mph and if you try to drive that slowly you put yourself in serious danger. It's unclear whether that's going to be a fixed or mobile camera location.

That location is on the commuting route to the U.S. Capitol of many congresscritters and their staffers who live in Virginia.  It'll be interesting to see what kind of blowback comes from them, once they start getting tickets in the mail.

Eastbound, that location for a time had a temporary work zone speed limit of 45mph, higher than the regular limit of 40mph.  I take that as yet more evidence that the 40mph limit is underposted, as D.C. is wont to do.

I wonder if the congressmen might claim immunity from ticketing under Article I, Section 6, clause 1:

Excellent  question.  And it is my understanding that relatively few Members live in the  Maryland suburbs of D.C. (perhaps because there are no freeway connections from D.C. to most of Maryland, just possibly?), so they will generally not encounter the photo radar enforcement along U.S. 50 (N.Y. Ave., N.E.) between Bladensburg Road and South Dakota Avenue, nor along I-295 at Blue Plains (Laboratory Road, S.W.), nor along D.C. 295 just south of Eastern Avenue, N.E.

QuoteThe Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.

QuoteI seem to recall a news report some years back about Frank Wolf being issued a speeding ticket in Fairfax County that the police department then revoked because of this provision since Wolf was on his way to Capitol Hill for a regular session of Congress, but Wolf then insisted they issue the ticket because he said that's not the sort of thing for which this provision was intended. I might be mistaken about the facts; it may have been a car crash where he was at fault. Either way, if the story is true I think his point is valid. A constitutional provision of this sort should not be interpreted as giving the congressmen the right to break every law they choose without fear of penalty. We already run into that problem enough with the embassies and their people with Diplomat plates.

I recall a crash involving the late Sen. Robert C. Byrd (D-W.Va.) on U.S. 50 (Lee-Jackson Highway) some years ago, in, I believe, Fairfax County, Va.  If I recall correctly, he was headed west on U.S. 50 in the direction of his home state, but it was on a day when the Senate was not in session (I believe it may have been on Friday, 07-May-1999, according to this link (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-588955.html) (Highbeam.com pay site).  The site says Byrd was issued a summons for "following too closely," which was later voided. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 21, 2012, 09:53:39 PM
WTOP Radio: Bus catches fire in 3rd Street Tunnel in D.C. (Video) (http://www.wtop.com/109/2872682/Bus-fire-in-3rd-Street-Tunnel-forces-evacuation)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 08, 2012, 10:07:31 AM
Washington Post: D.C. red-light, speed cameras rake in a record $55 million (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/district-rakes-in-a-record-55-million-from-red-light-speed-cameras/2012/06/07/gJQAoS7sKV_story.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2012, 12:05:59 PM
Police pull over and stop Google driverless car in Washington, D.C. (http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/07/police-stop-google-driverless-car-in-washington-d-c.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on July 16, 2012, 02:12:52 PM
I think "privileged from arrest" means they cannot be arrested right then and there.  they can be arrested, and given the usual due process of law, just starting at another time.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2012, 03:57:14 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2012, 12:05:59 PM
Police pull over and stop Google driverless car in Washington, D.C. (http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/07/police-stop-google-driverless-car-in-washington-d-c.html)

Some details on this: What Happens When the Cops Pull Over a Self-Driving Car? (http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/07/13/google_self_driving_car_what_happens_when_police_pull_over_autonomous_cars_.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 31, 2012, 07:05:07 PM
The Washington Post's Mike DeBonis (http://www.washingtonpost.com/mike-debonis/2011/02/24/ABbxUYN_page.html) on what happens when a D.C.-licensed driver gets convicted of reckless driving in Virginia: D.C. drivers hurt by tough interpretation of Va. offenses (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/dc-drivers-hurt-by-tough-interpretation-of-va-offenses/2012/07/30/gJQAzPbBLX_story.html)

Interestingly, one of the "victims" in this story was convicted of reckless driving in the notorious (to some) speed trap on I-295 in Hopewell, Virginia.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on July 31, 2012, 07:15:42 PM
Quote"Driving 81 miles per hour is dangerous, not only to the well-being of the driver, but also to those around him or her in that the ability to maintain control is reduced the higher the speed of travel,"  she wrote.

this coming from the director of the DC department of motor vehicles.

yes, in Washington DC, doing 81mph is quite likely reckless... but still, what a stunning lack of perspective.  has she ever driven rurally?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 01, 2012, 09:31:44 PM
I think the Virginia law is a bit of a "gotcha" law, but it's hardly a secret either. It's WELL-known among many residents of both DC and Maryland that above 80 mph is grounds for a reckless in Virginia. But even if someone doesn't know the law, I have no sympathy at all for someone who doesn't read the summons. In Virginia reckless has to be charged for you to be convicted of it–the cop can't charge you with simple speeding 85 in a 70 zone and then the judge turns around and says "reckless." So you're on notice you face a reckless charge and it's your own fault if you fail to take it seriously. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 09, 2012, 07:07:43 PM
Washington Post: D.C. officer pleads guilty to radar speed-gun fraud; city to refund tickets (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/dc-officer-pleads-guilty-to-radar-speed-gun-fraud-city-to-refund-tickets/2012/08/09/d489207a-e23c-11e1-ae7f-d2a13e249eb2_story.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 29, 2012, 08:43:25 AM
WTOP Radio: New type of traffic camera slated for D.C. (http://www.wtop.com/109/3012346/New-type-of-traffic-camera-for-DC)

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 29, 2012, 12:47:55 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 29, 2012, 08:43:25 AM
WTOP Radio: New type of traffic camera slated for D.C. (http://www.wtop.com/109/3012346/New-type-of-traffic-camera-for-DC)

The idea of using cameras to enforce yielding to pedestrians gives me serious concern because I don't know how they intend to deal with the problems of pedestrians refusing to obey the lights and crossing wherever and whenever they wish. At some intersections it puts the driver in a serious bind–the one that immediately comes to mind is 18th & L NW, two one-way streets where drivers from 18th may turn right only on a green arrow (per a sign). But it can be difficult to make that turn because of all the asshole pedestrians who think they're allowed to walk during that green arrow signal (despite the obvious "Don't Walk" signal). I don't hesitate to force my way through and use my horn. It pisses them off, but that's their problem–it's not their turn to go, and if I don't force the issue I'll never get around the corner.

I'd like to know how they intend to use the cameras in that type of situation. The driver is damned if he goes, damned if he yields (as then he could get a camera ticket for turning after the green arrow ends).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on August 30, 2012, 02:30:44 PM
And then there's the definition of "yielding to pedestrians".  Most of us would probably think that if you can finish the turn before they get to you or go just after they pass the area you'll go through that you're fine - which it is in practice.  But I think the government defines it as not making any action to move as long as there is a pedestrian anywhere near the intersection, given how driver's ed instructed and road test people operate.  It's similar for cars; my cousin failed her road test the first time because she failed to yield to a car that was three blocks away from where she was turning!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on August 30, 2012, 02:34:08 PM
Quote from: deanej on August 30, 2012, 02:30:44 PM
But I think the government defines it as not making any action to move as long as there is a pedestrian anywhere near the intersection
Strawman. If they're in or within one lane of your half of the crosswalk.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2012, 08:23:01 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 29, 2012, 12:47:55 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 29, 2012, 08:43:25 AM
WTOP Radio: New type of traffic camera slated for D.C. (http://www.wtop.com/109/3012346/New-type-of-traffic-camera-for-DC)

The idea of using cameras to enforce yielding to pedestrians gives me serious concern because I don't know how they intend to deal with the problems of pedestrians refusing to obey the lights and crossing wherever and whenever they wish. At some intersections it puts the driver in a serious bind–the one that immediately comes to mind is 18th & L NW, two one-way streets where drivers from 18th may turn right only on a green arrow (per a sign). But it can be difficult to make that turn because of all the asshole pedestrians who think they're allowed to walk during that green arrow signal (despite the obvious "Don't Walk" signal). I don't hesitate to force my way through and use my horn. It pisses them off, but that's their problem–it's not their turn to go, and if I don't force the issue I'll never get around the corner.

I'd like to know how they intend to use the cameras in that type of situation. The driver is damned if he goes, damned if he yields (as then he could get a camera ticket for turning after the green arrow ends).

Most District of Columbia municipal police officers are not interested in writing traffic tickets to anyone, anytime, anywhere.  I suspect that per-officer, the U.S. Park Police and the U.S. Capitol Police probably issue more D.C. traffic tickets than the Metropolitan Police do.  Even though  a large percentage of the Capitol Police are not in police cars where they can initiate traffic stops.

Having said that, I think the elected officials of the city see automated enforcement as a revenue gold mine, and just possibly as a surrogate for the commuter tax that they are forbidden by the D.C. charter (enacted by Congress) from levying on Md. and Va. residents who work in the city. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on August 31, 2012, 01:20:53 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 30, 2012, 02:34:08 PM
Quote from: deanej on August 30, 2012, 02:30:44 PM
But I think the government defines it as not making any action to move as long as there is a pedestrian anywhere near the intersection
Strawman. If they're in or within one lane of your half of the crosswalk.
You and I might think that, but NYS DMV licence examiners are stricter, and I would think the government would adopt a position more similar to the licence examiner than to us because it would yield more revenue.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 05, 2012, 03:11:15 PM
WTOP Radio: App finds D.C. one of the worst for speed traps (VIDEO) (http://www.wtop.com/109/3020840/App-DC-among-worst-for-speed-traps)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 12, 2012, 07:44:56 PM
Washington Post op-ed by Courtland Milloy: Speed cameras: Traffic enforcement or highway robbery? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/speed-cameras-traffic-enforcement-or-highway-robbery/2012/09/11/dae4d874-fc54-11e1-8adc-499661afe377_story.html)

QuoteNot reckless driving, just cruising at speeds more appropriate for road conditions than the posted speed limit sometimes permits. Pop the top on the old Solara, fire up the CD player and hit the open road. A new Mercedes ad calls it "feeling alive,"  although the sensation can be just as good in any well-kept automobile.

QuoteLately, though, some jurisdictions have ramped up efforts to kill that feeling – to actually steal the joy of driving altogether – by "getting people out of their cars,"  as D.C. Mayor Vincent Gray (D) likes to say. And through the use of hyper-vigilant parking enforcement along with an explosion of red light and speed cameras, he's drawn a hard line in the sand.

QuoteJohn Townsend, spokesman for AAA Mid-Atlantic, is girded for battle.

Quote"When you look at plans for the future of transportation in the District, much of the focus is on making cars optional in the city,"  he said. "To make more room for pedestrians and cyclists, they want to make less room for cars. But most people in the city still get to work by car, and I don't see them having any options in the foreseeable future."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 17, 2012, 05:26:41 PM
WTOP Radio: Councilmembers' bill would slash D.C. speed camera fines (http://www.wtop.com/109/3079961/Bill-would-slash-DC-speed-camera-fines)

QuoteA proposal by three members of the D.C. Council would reduce speed camera fines in the District from the highest in the nation to a maximum of $50.

QuoteD.C. Councilmember Tommy Wells, D-Ward 6, will introduce the Safety-Based Traffic Enforcement Act of 2012 Tuesday. As part of the bill, fines for photo-enforced infractions such as speeding, failure to yield to a pedestrian in a crosswalk, failure to stop at a stop sign or blocking the box in an intersection would result in a graduated fine with a maximum of $50.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on October 20, 2012, 01:52:25 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 17, 2012, 05:26:41 PM
WTOP Radio: Councilmembers' bill would slash D.C. speed camera fines (http://www.wtop.com/109/3079961/Bill-would-slash-DC-speed-camera-fines)

QuoteA proposal by three members of the D.C. Council would reduce speed camera fines in the District from the highest in the nation to a maximum of $50.

QuoteD.C. Councilmember Tommy Wells, D-Ward 6, will introduce the Safety-Based Traffic Enforcement Act of 2012 Tuesday. As part of the bill, fines for photo-enforced infractions such as speeding, failure to yield to a pedestrian in a crosswalk, failure to stop at a stop sign or blocking the box in an intersection would result in a graduated fine with a maximum of $50.

I'm sure we have the technology to detect pedestrians in the crosswalk, but I've never heard of that being photo enforced. Also, failure to stop at a stop sign? Does that mean the camera is running video instead of still images, so that the fine is issued if the camera doesn't detect a stop? Again, I've never heard of this.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 24, 2012, 09:01:52 AM
Washington Post: Single District speed camera: 116,734 tickets worth $11.6 million (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/single-district-speed-camera-116734-tickets-worth-116-million/2012/10/23/2b754b24-1c86-11e2-ba31-3083ca97c314_story.html)

Some of the material in this article is factually deficient:

QuoteThe District's biggest moneymaking speed camera in a 23-month period ending in August is the one on New York Avenue between Florida Avenue and the new Ninth Street overpass, which produced $11.6 million it tickets. The camera spewed out 60,241 tickets, worth $6.2 million, in the previous fiscal year.

But its jackpot potential was eventually eclipsed by a pair of cameras installed on D.C. 295, which runs just east of the Anacostia River.

The cameras – one catching southbound traffic and the other north – are on 295 just north of where it intersects with the Capital Beltway and the Woodrow Wilson Bridge.

Between Oct. 1 of last year and Aug. 31 of this year, the two cameras produced 161,399 tickets, with a face value of almost $15.9 million.

"Most drivers mistakenly assume D.C. 295 is an interstate highway or a U.S. highway, and they cruise along at what traffic engineers call the 85th percentile speed, which is the speed that 85 percent of the drivers on that freeway consider as the maximum safe speed for that location,"  said AAA's Townsend. "In fact, it is the only numbered route in the District that isn't an interstate or U.S. highway. And drivers who aren't aware of that are paying the price for that."

The productive D.C. 295 cameras helped make fiscal 2012 a year of frustration for drivers who don't like getting tickets and a lucrative year for the city tax coffers. The city has 47 red-light cameras and 46 speed cameras. Of the speed cameras, 10 are at fixed locations, 15 are portable and 21 are installed on police vehicles.

Those cameras are in fact on Interstate 295 near the Blue Plains sewage treatment facility, one for each carriageway (I pass them frequently on my way home from Nationals Park, and when traffic is even moderately heavy you CAN'T speed past the camera because all the local drivers know it's there and slow down to 40 to 45 mph in the 50-mph zone). The 50-mph speed limit there is absurd. I have no quibble with a low limit further north near South Capitol Street and especially in the 11th Street Bridge work zone, but posting 50 mph on the southern end of that road can only be intended as a "gotcha" measure to screw the suburban drivers.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: deathtopumpkins on October 24, 2012, 09:22:00 AM
Also, I hate how people (like the author of this article) assume that an interstate highway must be a better quality road, and that if it's not an interstate then it is not a high-speed road. No.  :-/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 24, 2012, 09:49:26 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 24, 2012, 09:22:00 AM
Also, I hate how people (like the author of this article) assume that an interstate highway must be a better quality road, and that if it's not an interstate then it is not a high-speed road. No.  :-/

Indeed, and DC's Interstates in particular are not particularly good roads, although I-295 could use a higher speed limit for the southern portion (as mentioned above).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on October 24, 2012, 11:24:37 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 24, 2012, 09:01:52 AM
Washington Post: Single District speed camera: 116,734 tickets worth $11.6 million (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/single-district-speed-camera-116734-tickets-worth-116-million/2012/10/23/2b754b24-1c86-11e2-ba31-3083ca97c314_story.html)

Some of the material in this article is factually deficient:

For another questionable item in the article (not about D.C., but still reflecting the article's accuracy):

"Speed cameras are employed in Virginia if authorized by local ordinance."

That's news to me.  There are plenty of red-light cameras in some Virginia communities, but even in notorious speed trap Falls Church city I've never seen a speed camera.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 24, 2012, 11:43:50 AM
Quote from: oscar on October 24, 2012, 11:24:37 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 24, 2012, 09:01:52 AM
Washington Post: Single District speed camera: 116,734 tickets worth $11.6 million (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/single-district-speed-camera-116734-tickets-worth-116-million/2012/10/23/2b754b24-1c86-11e2-ba31-3083ca97c314_story.html)

Some of the material in this article is factually deficient:

For another questionable item in the article (not about D.C., but still reflecting the article's accuracy):

"Speed cameras are employed in Virginia if authorized by local ordinance."

That's news to me.  There are plenty of red-light cameras in some Virginia communities, but even in notorious speed trap Falls Church city I've never seen a speed camera.

Good point. Indeed speed cameras are NOT in use in Virginia and are NOT allowed under state law.

I just tweeted Dr. Gridlock about the errors since he's usually responsive on such things. He also knows who I am from my comments on his blog and traffic-reporting tweets I've sent him in the past. Be interesting to see if anything gets corrected.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 24, 2012, 09:44:49 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 24, 2012, 09:01:52 AM
Those cameras are in fact on Interstate 295 near the Blue Plains sewage treatment facility, one for each carriageway (I pass them frequently on my way home from Nationals Park, and when traffic is even moderately heavy you CAN'T speed past the camera because all the local drivers know it's there and slow down to 40 to 45 mph in the 50-mph zone). The 50-mph speed limit there is absurd. I have no quibble with a low limit further north near South Capitol Street and especially in the 11th Street Bridge work zone, but posting 50 mph on the southern end of that road can only be intended as a "gotcha" measure to screw the suburban drivers.

There are also a set of similar devices (speed cameras mounted in what appear to be steel traffic signal cabinets) on D.C. 295 (Kenilworth Avenue, N.E., an expressway-class road with full access control and no signalized intersections, but mostly lacking shoulders) between Benning Road, N.E. and Nannie Helen Burroughs Avenue, N.E. on both sides.  Posted limit there is 45 MPH.   
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 24, 2012, 10:45:29 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 24, 2012, 09:44:49 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 24, 2012, 09:01:52 AM
Those cameras are in fact on Interstate 295 near the Blue Plains sewage treatment facility, one for each carriageway (I pass them frequently on my way home from Nationals Park, and when traffic is even moderately heavy you CAN'T speed past the camera because all the local drivers know it's there and slow down to 40 to 45 mph in the 50-mph zone). The 50-mph speed limit there is absurd. I have no quibble with a low limit further north near South Capitol Street and especially in the 11th Street Bridge work zone, but posting 50 mph on the southern end of that road can only be intended as a "gotcha" measure to screw the suburban drivers.

There are also a set of similar devices (speed cameras mounted in what appear to be steel traffic signal cabinets) on D.C. 295 (Kenilworth Avenue, N.E., an expressway-class road with full access control and no signalized intersections, but mostly lacking shoulders) between Benning Road, N.E. and Nannie Helen Burroughs Avenue, N.E. on both sides.  Posted limit there is 45 MPH.   

You're right, but if you read the article I linked, it's very clear he's taking about the ones on the Interstate portion because he specifically refers to the southern part near the Beltway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 25, 2012, 06:19:02 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 24, 2012, 10:45:29 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 24, 2012, 09:44:49 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 24, 2012, 09:01:52 AM
Those cameras are in fact on Interstate 295 near the Blue Plains sewage treatment facility, one for each carriageway (I pass them frequently on my way home from Nationals Park, and when traffic is even moderately heavy you CAN'T speed past the camera because all the local drivers know it's there and slow down to 40 to 45 mph in the 50-mph zone). The 50-mph speed limit there is absurd. I have no quibble with a low limit further north near South Capitol Street and especially in the 11th Street Bridge work zone, but posting 50 mph on the southern end of that road can only be intended as a "gotcha" measure to screw the suburban drivers.

There are also a set of similar devices (speed cameras mounted in what appear to be steel traffic signal cabinets) on D.C. 295 (Kenilworth Avenue, N.E., an expressway-class road with full access control and no signalized intersections, but mostly lacking shoulders) between Benning Road, N.E. and Nannie Helen Burroughs Avenue, N.E. on both sides.  Posted limit there is 45 MPH.   

You're right, but if you read the article I linked, it's very clear he's taking about the ones on the Interstate portion because he specifically refers to the southern part near the Beltway.

Yeah, I think you are correct.  It's amazing to me that people cannot distinguish between I-295 and D.C. 295 (and the part of the corridor that is now D.C. 295 was long referred to as "295" before the D.C. 295 signs went up).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 25, 2012, 07:48:25 AM
The plot thickens....on Channel 4 news at 11 last night Jim Vance talked about this story and he showed a picture of DC-295. Makes me wonder whether the Post's Halsey was being sloppy in describing the camera location or in describing the route number. Clearly he messed up (and, as Oscar notes, he was utterly wrong on Virginia law).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 25, 2012, 11:35:38 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 25, 2012, 07:48:25 AM
The plot thickens....on Channel 4 news at 11 last night Jim Vance talked about this story and he showed a picture of DC-295. Makes me wonder whether the Post's Halsey was being sloppy in describing the camera location or in describing the route number. Clearly he messed up (and, as Oscar notes, he was utterly wrong on Virginia law).

Not making excuses for Halsey, but some years ago, the Virginia General Assembly did permit local governments at least some automated traffic enforcement.  I think just about every signalized intersection on Va. 243 (Nutley Street) and Va. 123 (Maple Avenue) in the Town of Vienna (Fairfax County) had automated red light violation detectors and cameras installed.

I have no problem with automated enforcement for safety reasons.  Maryland SHA's automated speed enforcement in work zones (where motorists are warned - several times - approaching work zones) is a good thing (it was especially appropriate in the long-term work zone (two bridge redeckings, recently completed) on I-270 between Md. 109 (Hyattstown) and Md. 80 (Urbana).

And I don't have a problem with D.C. having automated enforcement along its neighborhood streets, where motorists need to obey the speed limits to protect pedestrians and bike riders.

But there are not supposed to be any pedestrians or bicycles on D.C. 295 or I-295.

And annoyingly, I don't think I have seen any automated speed enforcement at the one spot along the I-295/D.C. 295 corridor where it would be highly appropriate and useful to have - at the 11th Street Bridge construction project.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 25, 2012, 10:36:32 AM
Washington Post: D.C. implementing parking rules to limit visitor spots, discourage driving (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/dc-implementing-parking-rules-to-limit-visitor-spots-discourage-driving/2012/11/24/ed055ba2-3410-11e2-bfd5-e202b6d7b501_story.html)

QuoteDistrict officials are reserving thousands of on-street parking spaces for residents on weekdays in the city's most crowded neighborhoods, part of an aggressive effort to limit spots for visitors.

QuoteThe restrictions are a slice of a city strategy to promote bicycling and mass transit while increasing the odds that residents can find parking. The changes, which could affect as many as 10,000 spaces, come as the city eliminates some on-street parking to make room for bicycle lanes and prepares to set aside hundreds of meters for the disabled.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 25, 2012, 10:49:09 AM
Washington Post: Bike commuters power though the winter cold (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/bike-commuters-power-though-the-winter-cold/2012/11/23/f3f1153e-2e82-11e2-beb2-4b4cf5087636_story.html)

QuoteThe sounds of the city recede to a low hum, less present than the bite of winter's chill as the pale yellow sunlight knifes between the trees and the whir of bicycle wheels breaks the stillness of the suburban bike path.

Quote"When the early evening comes in the fall and it gets cold, it's actually very solitary and beautiful to just cruise that trail through the woods, even in the dark,"  said George Branyan, 49, who plans to pedal 15 miles each way between his Greenbelt home and downtown office in all but the worst conditions this winter.

QuoteAlong the Northeast Branch Trail, near College Park, riders are scarce during the winter, he says. "Just all the animals – foxes, rabbit and the deer. You don't want to surprise the deer because, unlike hitting a deer with a car, it's a little different with a bike."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mtantillo on November 25, 2012, 08:20:31 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 25, 2012, 10:36:32 AM
Washington Post: D.C. implementing parking rules to limit visitor spots, discourage driving (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/dc-implementing-parking-rules-to-limit-visitor-spots-discourage-driving/2012/11/24/ed055ba2-3410-11e2-bfd5-e202b6d7b501_story.html)

QuoteDistrict officials are reserving thousands of on-street parking spaces for residents on weekdays in the city's most crowded neighborhoods, part of an aggressive effort to limit spots for visitors.

QuoteThe restrictions are a slice of a city strategy to promote bicycling and mass transit while increasing the odds that residents can find parking. The changes, which could affect as many as 10,000 spaces, come as the city eliminates some on-street parking to make room for bicycle lanes and prepares to set aside hundreds of meters for the disabled.

If they really wanted to help residents, they would leave the current system alone during the day, and implement one side residents only at night. 

During the day, residential zones in DC are currently 2 hour parking for the entire zone (which correspond to the 8 wards of DC, roughly), with an exemption for those with a residential permit for that zone.  During the day, I personally don't have a problem with residential parking areas being used as overflow parking for business districts, because many residents leave the neighborhoods with their cars to commute to work,so in many areas, there are available spaces.  And DC's residential parking is far more friendly than most other area jurisdictions, which ban all non-resident parking during the day.  Plus for people actually visiting residents (as opposed to just visiting the neighborhood), each resident gets one guest pass plus they can get as many temporary ones as they want from the nearest police station.  I say leave those spots alone for people patronizing neighborhood businesses, deliveries, and short term visitors, but still discouraging all day commuter parking on residential streets with time limits for non-residents. 

But at night when all the residents come home from work, this is when parking is a problem in many neighborhoods, and also when DC has no parking restrictions on most residential streets!  It is tolerable Monday to Thursday nights, not that good on Sunday nights (I suppose a lot of residents have overnight visitors that don't leave until the next morning), and awful on Friday and Saturday nights when you have people coming in from the suburbs for the nightlife.  This is when it would be really nice to have one side reserved for residents (and their guests with a proper permit). 

Our neighborhood is bad all weekend, not just in the evenings, because people come in to visit a tourist attraction in the neighborhood that has pay parking...but they don't want to pay for it, so they just use up all the residential spots.  I did the street parking game for 4 years, now I pay big bucks for a garage spot in my building so I can come and go as I please. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 25, 2012, 09:05:03 PM
Quote from: mtantillo on November 25, 2012, 08:20:31 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 25, 2012, 10:36:32 AM
Washington Post: D.C. implementing parking rules to limit visitor spots, discourage driving (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/dc-implementing-parking-rules-to-limit-visitor-spots-discourage-driving/2012/11/24/ed055ba2-3410-11e2-bfd5-e202b6d7b501_story.html)

QuoteDistrict officials are reserving thousands of on-street parking spaces for residents on weekdays in the city's most crowded neighborhoods, part of an aggressive effort to limit spots for visitors.

QuoteThe restrictions are a slice of a city strategy to promote bicycling and mass transit while increasing the odds that residents can find parking. The changes, which could affect as many as 10,000 spaces, come as the city eliminates some on-street parking to make room for bicycle lanes and prepares to set aside hundreds of meters for the disabled.

If they really wanted to help residents, they would leave the current system alone during the day, and implement one side residents only at night. 

During the day, residential zones in DC are currently 2 hour parking for the entire zone (which correspond to the 8 wards of DC, roughly), with an exemption for those with a residential permit for that zone.  During the day, I personally don't have a problem with residential parking areas being used as overflow parking for business districts, because many residents leave the neighborhoods with their cars to commute to work,so in many areas, there are available spaces.  And DC's residential parking is far more friendly than most other area jurisdictions, which ban all non-resident parking during the day.  Plus for people actually visiting residents (as opposed to just visiting the neighborhood), each resident gets one guest pass plus they can get as many temporary ones as they want from the nearest police station.  I say leave those spots alone for people patronizing neighborhood businesses, deliveries, and short term visitors, but still discouraging all day commuter parking on residential streets with time limits for non-residents.

A few thoughts.

(1) This is an example of "be careful what you ask for, because you just might  get it."  Transit in the District of Columbia  (including the money paid by the D.C. Government to WMATA for rail and bus service) is profoundly dependent on taxes and fees collected from D.C. highway users (including fuel taxes, parking meter revenue, parking fines and taxes on private off-street parking lots).  If the modal shares that the D.C. Mayor has called for were to happen, then I think WMATA would have to shut-down or drastically curtail its operations for lack of money.

(2) I need my private vehicle.  I use it every day (frequently to do work in D.C.), and would not consider living in a place where parking of vehicles is so actively discouraged. 

(3) I also think that blatant discrimination against non-residents (in the form of discriminatory parking policies aimed at nonresidents) is probably a violation of the Equal Protection Clause (14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution), though I believe the courts have ruled otherwise.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mtantillo on November 26, 2012, 01:08:53 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 25, 2012, 09:05:03 PM
Quote from: mtantillo on November 25, 2012, 08:20:31 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 25, 2012, 10:36:32 AM
Washington Post: D.C. implementing parking rules to limit visitor spots, discourage driving (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/dc-implementing-parking-rules-to-limit-visitor-spots-discourage-driving/2012/11/24/ed055ba2-3410-11e2-bfd5-e202b6d7b501_story.html)

QuoteDistrict officials are reserving thousands of on-street parking spaces for residents on weekdays in the city's most crowded neighborhoods, part of an aggressive effort to limit spots for visitors.

QuoteThe restrictions are a slice of a city strategy to promote bicycling and mass transit while increasing the odds that residents can find parking. The changes, which could affect as many as 10,000 spaces, come as the city eliminates some on-street parking to make room for bicycle lanes and prepares to set aside hundreds of meters for the disabled.

If they really wanted to help residents, they would leave the current system alone during the day, and implement one side residents only at night. 

During the day, residential zones in DC are currently 2 hour parking for the entire zone (which correspond to the 8 wards of DC, roughly), with an exemption for those with a residential permit for that zone.  During the day, I personally don't have a problem with residential parking areas being used as overflow parking for business districts, because many residents leave the neighborhoods with their cars to commute to work,so in many areas, there are available spaces.  And DC's residential parking is far more friendly than most other area jurisdictions, which ban all non-resident parking during the day.  Plus for people actually visiting residents (as opposed to just visiting the neighborhood), each resident gets one guest pass plus they can get as many temporary ones as they want from the nearest police station.  I say leave those spots alone for people patronizing neighborhood businesses, deliveries, and short term visitors, but still discouraging all day commuter parking on residential streets with time limits for non-residents.

A few thoughts.

(1) This is an example of "be careful what you ask for, because you just might  get it."  Transit in the District of Columbia  (including the money paid by the D.C. Government to WMATA for rail and bus service) is profoundly dependent on taxes and fees collected from D.C. highway users (including fuel taxes, parking meter revenue, parking fines and taxes on private off-street parking lots).  If the modal shares that the D.C. Mayor has called for were to happen, then I think WMATA would have to shut-down or drastically curtail its operations for lack of money.

(2) I need my private vehicle.  I use it every day (frequently to do work in D.C.), and would not consider living in a place where parking of vehicles is so actively discouraged. 

(3) I also think that blatant discrimination against non-residents (in the form of discriminatory parking policies aimed at nonresidents) is probably a violation of the Equal Protection Clause (14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution), though I believe the courts have ruled otherwise.

1) Well, it is clear that DC's proposed policies have nothing to do with making life easier for residents and everything to do with making things hard for those who wish to drive into the city during the day.  So personally I hope it doesn't come to fruition. 

2) Ditto.  I chose my neighborhood specifically because it had easier street parking than other DC neighborhoods.  But ever since I've grown out of my "city living is awesome" phase, I wish I had a place with free off-street parking. 

3)  I would tend to agree except in places where residential street parking is oversaturated, in which case I think the government is rightfully giving those that need the spots first dibs on them, and yes, the courts have agreed.  I only support residential permit schemes in residential areas though, not in commercial districts...that parking should be available to all who are willing to pay or hunt for a spot. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 28, 2012, 10:12:33 PM
D.C. Examiner: Traffic woes likely to persist for decades, officials say (http://washingtonexaminer.com/traffic-woes-likely-to-persist-for-decades-officials-say/article/2514621)

QuoteEven if the Washington region completes all its planned transportation projects, such as the Silver Line and the Purple Line, traffic in 2040 will be just as bad as it is now -- and in many places worse.

QuoteThat's according to a new analysis from the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments, released Wednesday, that shows the region's economic and population growth will outpace all current plans for transportation improvement, even if regional leaders push through projects struggling to get funding like the light rail Purple Line from Bethesda to New Carrollton in Maryland.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on November 28, 2012, 10:26:19 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 28, 2012, 10:12:33 PM
D.C. Examiner: Traffic woes likely to persist for decades, officials say (http://washingtonexaminer.com/traffic-woes-likely-to-persist-for-decades-officials-say/article/2514621)

QuoteEven if the Washington region completes all its planned transportation projects, such as the Silver Line and the Purple Line, traffic in 2040 will be just as bad as it is now -- and in many places worse.

QuoteThat's according to a new analysis from the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments, released Wednesday, that shows the region's economic and population growth will outpace all current plans for transportation improvement, even if regional leaders push through projects struggling to get funding like the light rail Purple Line from Bethesda to New Carrollton in Maryland.
*cough cough I-95 completion cough*
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on November 29, 2012, 01:04:27 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 28, 2012, 10:12:33 PM
QuoteThat's according to a new analysis from the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments, released Wednesday, that shows the region's economic and population growth will outpace all current plans for transportation improvement, even if regional leaders push through projects struggling to get funding like the light rail Purple Line from Bethesda to New Carrollton in Maryland.
This report brought to you by the dumb growth industry.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on November 30, 2012, 11:45:04 AM
This one is a bit of a shocker:

WTOP reports DC is expected to announce speed limit increases on at least two roads (http://www.wtop.com/109/3138182/Drivers-to-speed-up-on-some-DC-roads), although the article doesn't say which ones.


Edited later the same day: In a very sloppy and error-riddled article (http://www.wtop.com/?nid=109&sid=3138739), WTOP reports that, quote, "The speed limit for Benning Road NE from Oklahoma Avenue to I-295 will increase to 35 mph. I-295 within the District from Eastern Avenue to Blue Plains will increase to 50 mph." Of course pretty much all of the REAL I-295 is already posted at 50 and the part from Eastern Avenue to the 11th Street Bridge is not part of I-295 at all.

Later in the article, the reporter says, "Gray will implement the new speed limits through emergency rule. Because the city is not raising them above 55 mph, the move will not require federal approval." I see this "federal approval" nonsense fairly frequently in articles about speed limits and it really bugs me because it's been seventeen years since the National Maximum Speed Law was repealed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 30, 2012, 09:20:09 PM
The infamous Watergate Exxon appears to be no more (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2012/11/30/the-infamous-watergate-exxon-appears-to-be-no-more/)

QuoteThe World's Most Famous Gas Station – a.k.a. the Watergate Exxon, where a gallon of gas reliably cost at least a dollar more than the average price elsewhere in Washington – appears to be no more.

QuoteUpdate: The Washington City Paper is reporting that the closure is temporary (http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2012/11/30/watergate-exxon-only-closed-temporarily/).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2012, 09:15:07 AM
Dr. Gridlock reports DC raised the speed limits on four more streets effective at 12:01 this morning (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2012/12/17/speed-limits-going-up-on-four-more-d-c-streets/).

I do kind of wonder whether the cameras will be reset, or whether the tolerance had been higher than the new limits such that now there will be a reduced tolerance.

I also agree with froggie's comment there about DC being stubborn on not considering the two roads that are most in need of a review. I was talking to one of our neighbors on Sunday and she was complaining that she and her husband have gotten multiple speed camera tickets on I-295. I'm not totally sympathetic because I feel like any further speed camera tickets you incur after you get one in the mail are your own fault–I mean, the ticket put you on notice that there is (or may be) a camera somewhere along there, so why are you still flying along? But there's no question the 50-mph speed limit past the cameras outside Blue Plains is ludicrously low.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 18, 2012, 12:00:55 PM
how does the general public know about the tolerance of a speed camera?  when there were speed cameras in Phoenix, I swear I was the only driver doing 63mph in a 65, figuring that my odometer may not be 100% accurate.

turns out the tolerance is 80, but how was I supposed to know that??
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2012, 12:55:48 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 18, 2012, 12:00:55 PM
how does the general public know about the tolerance of a speed camera?  when there were speed cameras in Phoenix, I swear I was the only driver doing 63mph in a 65, figuring that my odometer may not be 100% accurate.

turns out the tolerance is 80, but how was I supposed to know that??

Maryland publicizes it and says the tolerance is 12 mph over the limit. DC does not, presumably under the theory that if they publicize the tolerance it means drivers will just drive as fast as they can within that tolerance (a dumb thing to do, IMO, because of the risk of speedometer error).

I do not support speed cameras, but I also don't think the public has any right to know what, if any, tolerance the devices allow. If the speed limit is 50 mph, people don't really have a "right" to "expect" to be able to get away with going anything faster than that, even if the 50-mph limit is unreasonable.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 18, 2012, 12:59:18 PM
I'd be opposed in theory to having any tolerance at all... but I'd want a corresponding increase in signed speed limits, but good luck with that.

Texas seems to be the most honest in this regard - they tend to give you less than 5mph tolerance, but they have the highest speed limits in the nation. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2012, 01:17:53 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 18, 2012, 12:59:18 PM
I'd be opposed in theory to having any tolerance at all... but I'd want a corresponding increase in signed speed limits, but good luck with that.

Texas seems to be the most honest in this regard - they tend to give you less than 5mph tolerance, but they have the highest speed limits in the nation. 

I agree with both comments as a general matter except that I think a small tolerance should be permitted to allow for speedometer error. I know some people would say it's the driver's responsibility to get the speedometer fixed, but frankly it's just not really worth the cost most of the time. If the speed limit is 75 mph and your speedometer says you're going 75 when you're really going 78, it's just not enough of a discrepancy to warrant the expense of getting it fixed and it's a bit overbearing for the State to force you into doing so. Of course at some point you do reach a point where error is too significant. I don't profess to have a sense for where that line is.

The other thing that always strikes me is the point I made in my comment to the blog entry I linked. The governments always bleat their stupid argument that speed limits are set for "safety" and that it's very important that you obey them. So if I-66 from Haymarket to I-81 is posted at 65 mph, they're saying it's "unsafe" for me to go 70. But then in 2010 after a change in the law they posted that same stretch at 70 mph (which is what the current limit is, and I generally obey it). That sort of thing takes away from the "safety" argument's credibility.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 18, 2012, 02:23:34 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2012, 01:17:53 PM
I agree with both comments as a general matter except that I think a small tolerance should be permitted to allow for speedometer error.

It's also to allow for radar/speed equipment error. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on December 18, 2012, 06:57:31 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 18, 2012, 12:59:18 PM
Texas seems to be the most honest in this regard - they tend to give you less than 5mph tolerance
I got a warning for 73 in a 70.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on December 18, 2012, 07:59:53 PM
Quote from: Steve on December 18, 2012, 06:57:31 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 18, 2012, 12:59:18 PM
Texas seems to be the most honest in this regard - they tend to give you less than 5mph tolerance
I got a warning for 73 in a 70.

I got one for 82 in a 70.  The deputy seemed to be most interested in what the heck a vehicle with Virginia plates was doing in Motley County, Texas.

Hawaii claimed to have a zero-tolerance policy in the mercifully brief period when its speed cameras were operating.  That was one of the many mistakes with the rollout of the speed cameras, which contributed to the program's deep unpopularity and swift demise.   (When uniformed police officers are caught on tape giving the finger to your speed cameras, that's a sign that you might've really screwed up.) 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 19, 2012, 06:17:17 PM
Reportedly the new ramp from outbound I-695 to northbound DC-295 opened this afternoon. Here's a picture from the DC DOT's Twitter post. I was unable to go check it out. Maybe tomorrow (though unlikely).

DC-295 doesn't serve just US-50; it also connects to MD-295. Adding control cities of "Annapolis" and "Baltimore" on the right-hand sign would not have been a disservice to people. DC isn't necessarily averse to out-of-territory control cities. Various signs around the city list "Richmond," "Baltimore," or just "Virginia."

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A-f_5LwCAAAoXus.jpg:large)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on December 19, 2012, 06:25:25 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 18, 2012, 12:00:55 PM

I do not support speed cameras, but I also don't think the public has any right to know what, if any, tolerance the devices allow. If the speed limit is 50 mph, people don't really have a "right" to "expect" to be able to get away with going anything faster than that, even if the 50-mph limit is unreasonable.
You know the big kicker is the fact that the Freeway portion of NY Avenue is only 40 mph. and signs warn of cameras.  That should be 50 mph or even 60 would be safe.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 19, 2012, 06:27:04 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 19, 2012, 06:25:25 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 18, 2012, 12:00:55 PM

I do not support speed cameras, but I also don't think the public has any right to know what, if any, tolerance the devices allow. If the speed limit is 50 mph, people don't really have a "right" to "expect" to be able to get away with going anything faster than that, even if the 50-mph limit is unreasonable.
You know the big kicker is the fact that the Freeway portion of NY Avenue is only 40 mph. and signs warn of cameras.  That should be 50 mph or even 60 would be safe.

You're quoting me there, not "agentsteel53." That section of New York Avenue is now posted at 45 mph.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on December 19, 2012, 06:47:31 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 19, 2012, 06:17:17 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A-f_5LwCAAAoXus.jpg:large)
Can I just say how unsuitable the DC shield is for an overhead sign? At least at this pitiful size.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on December 20, 2012, 06:22:07 AM
QuoteYou know the big kicker is the fact that the Freeway portion of NY Avenue is only 40 mph. and signs warn of cameras.  That should be 50 mph or even 60 would be safe.

Outbound, perhaps, but not inbound.  And as 1995hoo mentioned, outbound has recently been increased to 45 MPH.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Doctor Whom on December 20, 2012, 01:52:39 PM
Quote from: Steve on December 19, 2012, 06:47:31 PMCan I just say how unsuitable the DC shield is for an overhead sign? At least at this pitiful size.
Agreed.  It uses space very inefficiently, especially for a rectangular shield.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 20, 2012, 02:23:54 PM
It also appears, based solely on that admittedly grainy picture, that the "DC" that normally appears on the DC shield is missing. Not a big deal, just strikes me as odd.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 20, 2012, 02:25:00 PM
yeah, I was thinking to myself "while I agree with the general sentiment; I don't remember using that exact sequence of words".
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on December 20, 2012, 02:26:50 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 19, 2012, 06:27:04 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 19, 2012, 06:25:25 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 18, 2012, 12:00:55 PM

I do not support speed cameras, but I also don't think the public has any right to know what, if any, tolerance the devices allow. If the speed limit is 50 mph, people don't really have a "right" to "expect" to be able to get away with going anything faster than that, even if the 50-mph limit is unreasonable.
You know the big kicker is the fact that the Freeway portion of NY Avenue is only 40 mph. and signs warn of cameras.  That should be 50 mph or even 60 would be safe.

You're quoting me there, not "agentsteel53." That section of New York Avenue is now posted at 45 mph.
I will not attempt to break the quote here, but SORRY!  I guess I need some work on this.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on December 20, 2012, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 20, 2012, 02:25:00 PM
yeah, I was thinking to myself "while I agree with the general sentiment; I don't remember using that exact sequence of words".
I do not know how I did this exactly, but I am sorry for it looking like you said something you did not.  I need to learn how to not mix two quotes together properly and how to get a quote from another topic to be commented on another too.  Hopefully I figure this one out.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 20, 2012, 03:16:06 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 20, 2012, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 20, 2012, 02:25:00 PM
yeah, I was thinking to myself "while I agree with the general sentiment; I don't remember using that exact sequence of words".
I do not know how I did this exactly, but I am sorry for it looking like you said something you did not.  I need to learn how to not mix two quotes together properly and how to get a quote from another topic to be commented on another too.  Hopefully I figure this one out.

Check the sticky information found at the following address for some tips on the quoting: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4000.0

My #1 tip is, don't try to edit the quotes if you're posting from a mobile phone. An iPad or similar device with a larger screen might be feasible, but when I've posted on my iPhone I've found that it's REALLY EASY to lose track of the "quote" and "end quote" tags!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 20, 2012, 04:44:20 PM
WTOP reports that now the DC Council wants to LOWER the new speed limits back to what they were before and to deny the mayor any authority over such issues (http://www.wtop.com/109/3161781/Tussle-over-higher-speed-limits-in-DC).

What a screwed-up government those people have over there. I guess they get the government they deserve.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on December 20, 2012, 06:18:25 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 20, 2012, 04:44:20 PM
WTOP reports that now the DC Council wants to LOWER the new speed limits back to what they were before and to deny the mayor any authority over such issues (http://www.wtop.com/109/3161781/Tussle-over-higher-speed-limits-in-DC).

What a screwed-up government those people have over there. I guess they get the government they deserve.
I did not try to find the quotes here.

Anyway, to add to this you have to remember Marion Barry was once mayor.  For those who were too young to remember he was a crackhead.  If a person like that can be elected, it proves your point about getting what you deserve.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 20, 2012, 06:30:31 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 20, 2012, 06:18:25 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 20, 2012, 04:44:20 PM
WTOP reports that now the DC Council wants to LOWER the new speed limits back to what they were before and to deny the mayor any authority over such issues (http://www.wtop.com/109/3161781/Tussle-over-higher-speed-limits-in-DC).

What a screwed-up government those people have over there. I guess they get the government they deserve.
I did not try to find the quotes here.

Anyway, to add to this you have to remember Marion Barry was once mayor.  For those who were too young to remember he was a crackhead.  If a person like that can be elected, it proves your point about getting what you deserve.

More to the point in this forum, Barry was an enthusiastic participant in efforts to cancel planned but not built freeways in the District of Columbia and nearby Maryland, and "replace" them with Metrorail.  Even though Barry did not use and does not use transit, except at Metro ribboncutting events (there were quite a few of those during the years that he was Mayor-for-Life).  Even though he has a free lifetime Metro transit pass because he served on its Board of Directors.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 02, 2013, 10:08:50 PM
Washington Post: District police officer says a department speed camera is wrong (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/district-police-officer-says-a-department-speed-camera-is-wrong/2013/01/02/48fbe386-5531-11e2-8b9e-dd8773594efc_story.html)

QuoteA District police officer who is challenging the accuracy of his own department's speed camera program said a discrepancy on a speeding ticket from the Third Street Tunnel helped him beat the charge, and could lead to many other dismissals that would force the city to give back hundreds of thousands of dollars.

QuoteSgt. Mark E. Robinson, who cast himself as a whistleblower, argued that the citation issued by a speed camera in the Third Street Tunnel was invalid because the camera should have been set to enforce a posted 40-mph construction-zone speed limit. Instead, the camera was set to enforce the 45-mph limit that is regularly in force there.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on January 02, 2013, 10:17:10 PM
That's just silly. If it's enforcing 45 mph, it's certainly only catching people going faster than 40 mph.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 08, 2013, 07:03:20 PM
Washington Post Dr. Gridlock blog: Key Bridge closed in both directions (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2013/01/08/key-bridge-closed-in-both-directions/)

QuoteThe Key Bridge is blocked in both directions due to a person possibly threatening to jump from the bridge, according to D.C. police.

QuotePolice report that a call came in at 4:42 p.m. from someone who spotted a man on the outside of the bridge rail. Police also reported that as of 5:30 p.m., the Whitehurst Freeway as well as 27th and K streets NW were also being shut down. Commuters are being diverted from eastbound M Street to Pennsylvania Avenue and from westbound M Street to Canal Road, which is creating massive headaches on M Street.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 08, 2013, 08:10:45 PM
Washington Post: D.C. Council to Secret Service: Give us easier parking for Obama's inauguration (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-wire/post/dc-council-to-secret-service-give-us-easier-parking-for-obamas-inauguration/2013/01/08/6d3e967a-59b5-11e2-88d0-c4cf65c3ad15_blog.html)

QuoteIt was billed as a "security briefing,"  where the District's homeland security and public safety directors would update all 13 council members on the city's preparations for President Obama's inauguration later this month.

QuoteHomeland Security Director Christopher T. Geldart and Public Safety Director Paul Quander told members, for example, that the U.S. Secret Service is in charge but the city will have a backup command center at the ready should and emergency develop.

QuoteCouncil members, like the public, should also prepare for much of downtown to be locked down as early as Sunday afternoon prior to the Jan. 21 swearing-in ceremony on the Mall, officials said.

QuoteBut when it came time for council member questions, the meeting turned into a debate about the adequacy of the perks for council members wanting easy access to the inauguration.

And the biggest point of disagreement was over — you guessed it — parking.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 10, 2013, 10:09:09 PM
WTOP Radio: Gray: All options on table to fix D.C. congestion (http://www.wtop.com/41/3222338/Gray-Congestion-tax-isnt-ruled-out)

QuoteD.C. Mayor Vince Gray says new transportation strategies will need to be explored to accommodate the area's growing population.

QuoteGray says one of the long term goals of his Sustainable D.C. plan is to have 75 percent of trips be car-free by 2032.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 11, 2013, 09:59:55 AM
Washington Post: David Alpert: His vision for Greater Greater Washington and the District (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/david-alpert-his-vision-for-greater-greater-washington-and-the-district/2013/02/08/e7966612-5c41-11e2-9fa9-5fbdc9530eb9_story.html)

QuotePart news site, part advocacy group, part community newsletter, Greater Greater Washington is like an unending handbook to being an engaged D.C. area resident. It draws more than 100,000 unique visitors a month.

QuoteWhile the blog has attracted an array of contributors, it's the vision of Alpert – a former software engineer with no formal planning experience – that has shaped the views of citizens and politicians on what a better city means and how to achieve it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 19, 2013, 10:24:36 AM
Found this great photo of Arlington Memorial Bridge and thought it belonged in this thread rather than starting a new thread just for one picture. Don't know when it was taken.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemory.loc.gov%2Fservice%2Fpnp%2Fthc%2F5a37000%2F5a37500%2F5a37532r.jpg&hash=06367002bb6e30bd4c5b641038295e52057d9acb)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 19, 2013, 11:50:14 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 19, 2013, 10:24:36 AM
Found this great photo of Arlington Memorial Bridge and thought it belonged in this thread rather than starting a new thread just for one picture. Don't know when it was taken.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemory.loc.gov%2Fservice%2Fpnp%2Fthc%2F5a37000%2F5a37500%2F5a37532r.jpg&hash=06367002bb6e30bd4c5b641038295e52057d9acb)

I have never, ever seen the Memorial Bridge in an open position.  Interesting how the old and new Wilson Bridges look something like this when they were/are open.

I know it has an operators compartment somewhere built-in to the span, because in one of the bios of President Truman, it describes him being out for a walk (while he lived in the White House or the Blair House) and stopping to talk to the guy who opened and closed the bridge. I think access to that compartment was from a hatch in one of the sidewalks.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: andrewkbrown on February 19, 2013, 11:52:53 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 19, 2013, 10:24:36 AM
Found this great photo of Arlington Memorial Bridge and thought it belonged in this thread rather than starting a new thread just for one picture. Don't know when it was taken.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmemory.loc.gov%2Fservice%2Fpnp%2Fthc%2F5a37000%2F5a37500%2F5a37532r.jpg&hash=06367002bb6e30bd4c5b641038295e52057d9acb)

Sources I've read say it was opened for the last time on February 28, 1961.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 19, 2013, 12:23:10 PM
I believe it's been welded shut. The expansion of the 14th Street Bridge complex made the Memorial Bridge draw span useless because the 14th Street Bridge's outbound and HOV spans are not drawbridges; in addition, the construction of the Roosevelt Bridge (also without a draw span) meant that even if Memorial Bridge were to open, there's not really anywhere for a large vessel to go.

I've never seen it open either since I was not born the last time it opened, which is one reason I was happy to find that picture. Most people I know have no idea there's a draw span on that bridge and are surprised to learn of it, but when I point out how that arch is a different color they then usually see it immediately the next time they see that bridge.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 20, 2013, 08:26:46 AM
D.C. Examiner: D.C. logs nearly $26 million in traffic camera revenues in January (http://washingtonexaminer.com/d.c.-logs-nearly-26-million-in-traffic-camera-revenues-in-january/article/2521978)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 20, 2013, 11:02:30 PM
Washington Post: Changes in I-395, East Capitol Street lanes among possible projects in transportation planning document (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/road-makeovers-on-long-range-transportation-plan/2013/02/20/35539848-7ba0-11e2-9a75-dab0201670da_story.html)

QuoteA stretch of Interstate 395 could be expanded to four lanes in the coming years while several D.C. roadways could lose lanes, regional planning officials said Wednesday.

QuoteThe changes to the area's long-range transportation plan took a step forward on Wednesday at a meeting of the National Capital Region Transportation Planning Board.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 28, 2013, 04:13:32 PM
D.C. Examiner: D.C. waging war against drivers (http://washingtonexaminer.com/d.c.-waging-war-against-drivers/article/2522783)

QuoteDriving in the District is a high-price hassle: burning gasoline while stuck in traffic, feeding hungry parking meters and now tracking the ever-watchful traffic cameras waiting to make you pay up if you slip up.

QuoteIf it seems like city leaders want to get cars off the road in the nation's capital, that's because they do -- and it starts at the top. Mayor Vincent Gray's environmental initiative, Sustainable DC, has a stated goal of cutting in half by 2032 the number of D.C. commuters who drive.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on February 28, 2013, 08:30:44 PM
Doesn't surprise me that the Examiner would ram out something like that.  Some of the comments are quite entertaining as well.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 28, 2013, 08:46:00 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 28, 2013, 08:30:44 PM
Doesn't surprise me that the Examiner would ram out something like that.  Some of the comments are quite entertaining as well.

Adam, the Examiner is not exactly a friend of D.C. elected officials and the municipal government of the District of Columbia, though I regard it as a legitimate source of news, unlike its right-wing competitor, the late Rev. Sun Myung Moon's Washington Times.

The Examiner is a direct descendent of the now-defunct suburban Journal newspapers, all of which were purchased by the (very wealthy) Philip Anschutz and then morphed into the D.C. Examiner.

I just read your comment - the bigger issue (unfortunately not discussed by the reporter for the  Examiner) is how to fund all of that District of Columbia transit service.

Under the current system, a huge part of that D.C. subsidy comes from parking space taxes, parking meter revenue, fines and motor fuel taxes paid by non-D.C. residents.  So if D.C. Mayor Vince Gray's goal of forcing about half of those that drive to D.C. to take transit (or, perhaps more likely, work somewhere else), then the D.C. Government is going to have to come up with millions of additional dollars to fund WMATA operating and capital subsidies.

In other words, file this under "be careful what you ask for, because you just might get it."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on March 01, 2013, 04:37:55 AM
Given how critical Metro is for DC's economy, I don't think they'll have an issue with funding it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 01, 2013, 09:02:40 AM
Quote from: froggie on March 01, 2013, 04:37:55 AM
Given how critical Metro is for DC's economy, I don't think they'll have an issue with funding it.

I also think that plans like these, set far in the future (and probably after the elected officials that approve them are gone from office) are not likely to happen (reminds me of Maryland Gov. Parris Glendening's promise in 2000 to "double statewide transit ridership by 2020," followed by the head of planning at MTA admitting before a group of elected officials that even if transit patronage did double, it would do nothing to ease Maryland's severe highway traffic congestion).

Though I do give Councilmember Tommy Wells (D-Ward 6) credit for not allowing residents of those new apartment and condominium buildings near the Nationals ballpark to get on-street residential parking permits.  I personally don't agree with Mr. Wells (and I don't live in D.C.), but I do respect his integrity on this issue.

But a lot of D.C. is made up of single-family detached housing or single-family duplex or rowhouses, not very different from nearby Montgomery, Prince George's, Arlington and Fairfax Counties (especiallly the parts inside the Capital Beltway), and even though D.C. is the core jurisdiction of the region, those areas (at least in my opinion) qualify as "suburban sprawl"). 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on March 01, 2013, 11:32:34 AM
If DC wants to decrease car usage, perhaps they should make other methods of transport more attractive.  Trying to decrease car usage by making driving harder does NOT work.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 01, 2013, 04:54:56 PM
Quote from: deanej on March 01, 2013, 11:32:34 AM
If DC wants to decrease car usage, perhaps they should make other methods of transport more attractive.  Trying to decrease car usage by making driving harder does NOT work.

And the District of Columbia is going to be hard-pressed to build more Metrorail (even though WMATA has proposed what would be billions of dollars in additional Metrorail tunnels between D.C. and Virginia).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on March 01, 2013, 10:00:11 PM
...which is why DC is also focusing on bike infrastructure, their DC Circulator buses, and the proposed streetcar system.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 02, 2013, 10:44:50 AM
Quote from: froggie on March 01, 2013, 10:00:11 PM
...which is why DC is also focusing on bike infrastructure, their DC Circulator buses, and the proposed streetcar system.

I will be able to tell what the modal share of bike traffic to downtown D.C. during the A.M. peak commute is later this year. No streetcar traffic, at least not yet.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on March 03, 2013, 10:06:12 AM
Is that something that'll be announced in general?  I'm sure WABADC and the DC BAC would be interested.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 03, 2013, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: froggie on March 03, 2013, 10:06:12 AM
Is that something that'll be announced in general?  I'm sure WABADC and the DC BAC would be interested.

It takes a long time before it is available for public consumption, but when it is, I will alert you.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 03, 2013, 03:47:54 PM
Washington Post: D.C. region's leaders pursuing many different paths to make travel easier (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/dc-regions-leaders-pursuing-many-different-paths-to-make-travel-easier/2013/03/01/3ad81ea6-7ad8-11e2-a044-676856536b40_story.html)

QuoteThe authors of the national study telling us we have the nation's worst traffic problems say there's no "rigid prescription for the "˜best way' "  to cure them. They recommend we find our own paths out of the mess.

QuoteThe governments in the D.C. region are following various routes, sometimes emphasizing investment in infrastructure and sometimes better management of the assets we already have. These five recent developments illustrate the divergent paths.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 10, 2013, 04:19:22 PM
Dr. Gridlock in the Washington Post: More changes ahead for 11th Street Bridge (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/more-changes-ahead-for-11th-street-bridge/2013/03/09/b1280ea4-8744-11e2-999e-5f8e0410cb9d_story.html)

QuoteWhen the District began rebuilding one of the main routes across the Anacostia River, project managers set about making a lot of changes within a relatively small section of riverfront. During the past year, some of those changes had a great impact on long-distance commuters and the nearby neighborhoods. More are coming in 2013.

QuoteNew ramps

QuoteThe 11th Street bridge now consists of three spans, two that primarily serve long-distance travelers and a third designed mainly to handle local traffic. Around the end of the month, two new ramps are scheduled to open, creating new connections with the local bridge.

QuoteOne ramp will lead drivers from southbound D.C. 295 along a curvy ramp up to a traffic signal on the local span, the southernmost of the three. From the traffic signal, drivers will be able to turn right and cross the river toward Capitol Hill, or turn left toward the Anacostia neighborhood.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 18, 2013, 11:01:36 AM
WTOP Sprawl and Crawl: The ultimate D.C. question: To drive or to Metro? (http://www.wtop.com/654/3254387/The-ultimate-DC-question-To-drive-or-to-Metro)

QuoteSome people drive into work. Others take Metro, walk or bike. The decision on how to commute often depends on where you live and work.

Quote"I work in Fairfax and live in Falls Church," says Ann Gutkin. "There is no Metro station near my office, so a car is my only option."

QuoteHowever, her husband, Robert, takes Metro from West Falls Church to Washington, D.C.

Quote"He likes not having to drive. But he doesn't like the fact that Metro breaks down a lot and is often very crowded and uncomfortable. He's often quite agitated when I pick him up in the evening," Gutkin says.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 29, 2013, 03:11:10 PM
WTOP Radio: At 11th Street Bridge, crashes are common (http://www.wtop.com/654/3267345/Crashes-common-at-commuting-route)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 29, 2013, 03:26:00 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 29, 2013, 03:11:10 PM
WTOP Radio: At 11th Street Bridge, crashes are common (http://www.wtop.com/654/3267345/Crashes-common-at-commuting-route)

I think it's mostly due to driver error and that there are probably three main causes:

(1) People simply go too fast on the ramps.
(2) People are either on autopilot or putting blind faith in a sat-nav, then suddenly realize they're in the wrong lane and swerve wildly to change course without bothering to look first.
(3) People refuse to cooperate on the bridge when the southbound traffic needs to move left.

#2 is a big one on northbound I-295 because the exit for the bridge is now on the left side instead of the right like it was for over 50 years. Every time I go through there I see people swerving to the right at the last minute to stay on DC-295 instead of going over the bridge. In addition, aside from the revised traffic patterns, you have the new ramps leading to the local bridge that do not appear on any sat-nav yet. I'm sure there are an awful lot of people who used to use the Sousa Bridge who are still confused by the loss of their old route, too. (Betcha the traffic is quite bad at the 11th Street Bridge this coming Monday. It's Opening Day and a lot of people who drive to the ballpark haven't encountered the new road patterns.)

#3 is hopefully temporary. The local bridge's usefulness for inbound traffic is currently a bit hamstrung by ongoing construction at the northern end. I tried using the local bridge when I went down to Buzzards Point on Tuesday (didn't take the Douglass Bridge because you can't turn left onto Potomac Avenue). I might as well have just taken the freeway bridge–when you reach the northern end of the local bridge, you have to make a right turn and then a left turn such that you wind up at the same place you'd be if you took the freeway bridge. But the freeway bridge is currently in a temporary configuration due to ongoing ramp work on the northern end. Hopefully when it's all done the local bridge will provide more direct access and people won't feel the same desire to use the freeway bridge to get to the Navy Yard. As it is right now, people coming up I-295 heading for the Navy Yard have to shove right on the bridge just as people coming down DC-295 heading for downtown have to shove left. It's a miniature version of what the southbound Springfield Interchange used to be.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 04, 2013, 12:29:50 PM
WTOP Radio: New D.C. traffic signals give pedestrians control (http://www.wtop.com/109/3273380/Traffic-signals-give-pedestrians-control)

QuoteYou don't have to be good-looking to stop traffic.

QuoteNew pedestrian signals are going up at some busy crossings in the District. With the push of a button, people trying to cross can bring traffic to a stop.

Quote"It allows pedestrians to cross the street safely, and actually it is to the advantage of drivers," says George Branyan, pedestrian program coordinator with the D.C. Department of Transportation.

Quote"The [signals are] actually designed to let vehicles move again if it's safe to move on that flashing red, so the delay imposed on drivers is a lot less than a standard signal," he says.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on April 04, 2013, 03:23:49 PM
In other words, HAWK signals.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 05, 2013, 08:51:29 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2013, 03:26:00 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 29, 2013, 03:11:10 PM
WTOP Radio: At 11th Street Bridge, crashes are common (http://www.wtop.com/654/3267345/Crashes-common-at-commuting-route)

I think it's mostly due to driver error and that there are probably three main causes:

(1) People simply go too fast on the ramps.
(2) People are either on autopilot or putting blind faith in a sat-nav, then suddenly realize they're in the wrong lane and swerve wildly to change course without bothering to look first.
(3) People refuse to cooperate on the bridge when the southbound traffic needs to move left.

All are valid points.  And things seem to get worse when the pavement is wet, even though the bridge deck is portland cement concrete.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2013, 03:26:00 PM
#2 is a big one on northbound I-295 because the exit for the bridge is now on the left side instead of the right like it was for over 50 years. Every time I go through there I see people swerving to the right at the last minute to stay on DC-295 instead of going over the bridge. In addition, aside from the revised traffic patterns, you have the new ramps leading to the local bridge that do not appear on any sat-nav yet. I'm sure there are an awful lot of people who used to use the Sousa Bridge who are still confused by the loss of their old route, too. (Betcha the traffic is quite bad at the 11th Street Bridge this coming Monday. It's Opening Day and a lot of people who drive to the ballpark haven't encountered the new road patterns.)

Yes, I believe there are some that  are still confused by this change, though the signage is reasonably clear.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2013, 03:26:00 PM
#3 is hopefully temporary. The local bridge's usefulness for inbound traffic is currently a bit hamstrung by ongoing construction at the northern end. I tried using the local bridge when I went down to Buzzards Point on Tuesday (didn't take the Douglass Bridge because you can't turn left onto Potomac Avenue). I might as well have just taken the freeway bridge–when you reach the northern end of the local bridge, you have to make a right turn and then a left turn such that you wind up at the same place you'd be if you took the freeway bridge. But the freeway bridge is currently in a temporary configuration due to ongoing ramp work on the northern end. Hopefully when it's all done the local bridge will provide more direct access and people won't feel the same desire to use the freeway bridge to get to the Navy Yard. As it is right now, people coming up I-295 heading for the Navy Yard have to shove right on the bridge just as people coming down DC-295 heading for downtown have to shove left. It's a miniature version of what the southbound Springfield Interchange used to be.

I have observed this.  The other problem is drivers wanting to head north on D.C. 295 making "last minute" decisions to move to the right (and its counter-intuitive here that the southbound movement is left and the northbound movement is to the right.  But drivers will get used to it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 09, 2013, 11:17:00 AM
WTOP Radio: D.C. parking ticket saga continues for federal employee (http://www.wtop.com/654/3278996/How-the-saga-of-1-DC-ticket-drags-on)

QuoteWASHINGTON - Since WTOP first reported the story about a federal employee fighting a parking ticket from 2011, the D.C. Department of Motor Vehicles has rejected another plea to toss the ticket.

QuoteJohn R. Stanton, who has worked for U.S. Customs and Border Protection for 22 years, received the ticket for an infraction that reportedly occurred in the 700 block of Maryland Avenue NE on July 11, 2011. But Stanton claims he was on official government business in Arizona and his Mercedes was parked at Dulles International Airport on that day.

QuoteHe provided WTOP with government orders, along with receipts from the hotel, airline and parking garage to demonstrate he left on July 7 and returned on July 14.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 14, 2013, 10:29:26 AM
Washington Post: After 81 years, landmark Memorial Bridge is in dire need of renovation (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/after-81-years-landmark-memorial-bridge-is-in-dire-need-of-renovation/2013/04/13/73eb8858-a3a6-11e2-be47-b44febada3a8_story.html)

QuoteThe main lever in the Memorial Bridge control room hasn't opened the draw span in more than 50 years. The old bridge itself hasn't had a serious repair job in almost 40 years. And it has never undergone a major overhaul.

QuoteThe bridge shudders now under the pounding delivered by the 55,000 vehicles that cross on a typical weekday. Last week, the National Park Service took the first steps in a proposed multiyear repair project that could cost as much as $250 million and, under some scenarios, close the 81-year-old span for three months.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on April 25, 2013, 09:35:51 AM
Channel 4's Adam Tuss reports DC is installing more HAWK signals. (http://www.nbcwashington.com/traffic/transit/New-NW-Pedestrian-Crosswalk-Gets-Mixed-Signals_Washington-DC.html) The thing I noted on this one is the sign telling drivers what the flashing red means.

I'm not sure why pedestrians find it confusing. Push the button and wait for the "Walk" signal. I suppose they never do that anywhere else in DC, though.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 29, 2013, 04:55:42 PM
WRC-4 (NBC): D.C.'s New Taxi Design: Red With a Gray Stripe - Color scheme will be similar to that of D.C.'s Circulator buses (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/New-DC-Taxi-Design-Revealed-Cabs-to-Be-Red-With-a-Gray-Stripe-205256261.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 29, 2013, 04:58:16 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 25, 2013, 09:35:51 AM
Channel 4's Adam Tuss reports DC is installing more HAWK signals. (http://www.nbcwashington.com/traffic/transit/New-NW-Pedestrian-Crosswalk-Gets-Mixed-Signals_Washington-DC.html) The thing I noted on this one is the sign telling drivers what the flashing red means.

I'm not sure why pedestrians find it confusing. Push the button and wait for the "Walk" signal. I suppose they never do that anywhere else in DC, though.

I am not a big fan of HAWK signals.  In my perfect world, motorized traffic would face "regular" signal heads, with green replaced by a familiar yellow flashing light.  When pedestrians and bike riders request to cross, the signal changes to a solid yellow and then red, and then the pedestrians and bike riders get a WALK signal and everyone crosses.

I also like the yellow flashing globes used in  London, England (but over there, drivers know to yield (or "give way") to peds in crosswalks).  Live example (with sound!) on the Abbey Road Studios crosswalk Webcam here (http://www.abbeyroad.com/crossing).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on April 30, 2013, 11:50:26 AM
But what if the walk signal is longer than the time needed for everyone to cross?  What if someone pushes the button and then jaywalks or changes their mind?  Why should cars be stopped longer than needed?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 30, 2013, 01:57:12 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 30, 2013, 11:50:26 AM
But what if the walk signal is longer than the time needed for everyone to cross?  What if someone pushes the button and then jaywalks or changes their mind?  Why should cars be stopped longer than needed?

Fair questions.  I suppose that's a problem with any kind of "user-controlled" signal.  As for the time taken to cross the street on foot, I believe there are metrics that engineers use when they time a signal (I have never timed a signal in my  life, as that is not what we do where I work).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on April 30, 2013, 02:45:45 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 30, 2013, 01:57:12 PM
I suppose that's a problem with any kind of "user-controlled" signal.
Which is why the HAWK has the flashing red phase.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 01, 2013, 01:22:33 PM
I see DC's new HAWK signal on Connecticut Avenue has a sign I have not seen on the (admittedly few) other HAWKs I've encountered. This picture is from the Washington Post. Notice the sign about the flashing red phase. Yes, people should understand that a flashing red means it's the functional equivalent of a stop sign. But in practice, the flashing red phase seems to be the one that confuses people. Some people see the pedestrians are out of the way and immediately go, even on a steady red (that's wrong); others wait for the flashing red and then go without stopping (also wrong, you're supposed to go one at a time just like a stop sign); others wait for the light to go out entirely (wrong, you can go on flashing red).

The thing that might be unclear here is the interplay between the two "Stop on Red" signs. I wonder if the one on the left might be better-worded as "Stop on Steady [red circle icon]" in order to clarify the distinction between the "Stop on Flashing Red" sign to the right.

I hope the local media will do some follow-up reporting on how it works out. Come to think of it, I'll go suggest that to Dr. Gridlock right now.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fblogs%2Fdr-gridlock%2Ffiles%2F2013%2F04%2FDrivers-view.jpg&hash=c63bd0526f0ee8cda6af57f9414d575b19ed1932)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 01, 2013, 03:33:13 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 01, 2013, 01:22:33 PMThe thing that might be unclear here is the interplay between the two "Stop on Red" signs. I wonder if the one on the left might be better-worded as "Stop on Steady [red circle icon]" in order to clarify the distinction between the "Stop on Flashing Red" sign to the right.

Hoo, I appreciate what the HAWK is trying to accomplish.

But I intensely dislike the configuration, for I believe it is confusing to motorists, in spite of the signs.

Much better (IMO) to just take a conventional-looking three-aspect signal head and put a flashing yellow where the green would otherwise go (as is done at some fire/EMS/rescue squad stations in Virginia and Maryland).

GSV Examples:

(1) Woodland Beach VFD (Company 2) in Edgewater, Anne Arundel County, Md. on Londontown Road (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=edgewater+md&ll=38.934785,-76.548421&spn=0.001166,0.002411&safe=off&hnear=Mayo,+Anne+Arundel,+Maryland&gl=us&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=38.934745,-76.548533&panoid=Zs7PrpiTbmyMUjHPjSGtDA&cbp=12,57.56,,0,9.01).

(2) Wheaton VRS (Company 742) in Wheaton, Montgomery County, Md. on Grandview Avenue (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=wheaton+md&hl=en&ll=39.042539,-77.05315&spn=0.002329,0.004823&sll=38.934746,-76.548534&sspn=0.001175,0.002411&t=h&gl=us&hnear=Wheaton,+Wheaton-Glenmont,+Montgomery,+Maryland&z=18&layer=c&cbll=39.042539,-77.05315&panoid=bmZ_B-wWAWcOOw8cKyeyKw&cbp=12,21.78,,0,5.21) (though this company is moving about a mile north in the fairly near future).

(3) Dunn Loring VFD (Company 413) south of Tysons Corner in Fairfax County, Va. on Va. 650 (Gallows Road) (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=tysons+corner+va&hl=en&ll=38.902602,-77.22323&spn=0.001175,0.002411&sll=38.892227,-77.431673&sspn=0.004701,0.009645&t=h&gl=us&hnear=Tysons+Corner,+Fairfax,+Virginia&z=19&layer=c&cbll=38.902602,-77.22323&panoid=dQzC-63SlPETUnEp-RTf5A&cbp=12,194.17,,0,15.72).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 01, 2013, 04:09:58 PM
Alternatively, you could just put up a standard three-signal head that always stays green unless and until a pedestrian calls for the walk sign. My impression is that one reason for using the HAWK instead is that it allows for the flashing red cycle, which permits cars to go if the pedestrian is out of the way. A standard three-signal head doesn't allow for that as far as I know.

I'm familiar with the Dunn Loring light you mention. Been travelling Gallows Road since 1974. When I was a kid we lived near Fairfax Hospital and thus used Gallows to go to and from Tysons all the time. Many years later I commuted on that road from Fairfax to McLean.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 02, 2013, 08:23:56 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 01, 2013, 04:09:58 PM
Alternatively, you could just put up a standard three-signal head that always stays green unless and until a pedestrian calls for the walk sign. My impression is that one reason for using the HAWK instead is that it allows for the flashing red cycle, which permits cars to go if the pedestrian is out of the way. A standard three-signal head doesn't allow for that as far as I know.

I'm familiar with the Dunn Loring light you mention. Been travelling Gallows Road since 1974. When I was a kid we lived near Fairfax Hospital and thus used Gallows to go to and from Tysons all the time. Many years later I commuted on that road from Fairfax to McLean.

Or...you just have people walk up to and cross at the next intersection, which is visible in the photo.

Since the majority of people won't walk the extra minute, we have to come up with solutions like this.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 02, 2013, 10:13:53 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 02, 2013, 08:23:56 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 01, 2013, 04:09:58 PM
Alternatively, you could just put up a standard three-signal head that always stays green unless and until a pedestrian calls for the walk sign. My impression is that one reason for using the HAWK instead is that it allows for the flashing red cycle, which permits cars to go if the pedestrian is out of the way. A standard three-signal head doesn't allow for that as far as I know.

I'm familiar with the Dunn Loring light you mention. Been travelling Gallows Road since 1974. When I was a kid we lived near Fairfax Hospital and thus used Gallows to go to and from Tysons all the time. Many years later I commuted on that road from Fairfax to McLean.

Or...you just have people walk up to and cross at the next intersection, which is visible in the photo.

Since the majority of people won't walk the extra minute, we have to come up with solutions like this.

That does not bother me, at least not in an area where there is a lot of pedestrian traffic (and this part of D.C. probably qualifies by that metric). 

Much rather have controls of some sort if it reduces pedestrian vs. vehicle crashes (which are usually worse for the pedestrian than for the vehicle).

WJLA (Channel 7, ABC) Report: HAWK signals come to D.C. (http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/04/hawk-signals-come-to-d-c--88196.html)

EDIT: Added link to Channel 7 report.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 06, 2013, 06:04:07 PM
Anyone else see the season-ending episode of the "Amazing Race" on CBS?  It ended up running through the monumental core of Washington, D.C., and then finally at George Washington's Mount Vernon in Fairfax County.

Baltimore Sun: 'The Amazing Race' finale recap, Bates and Anthony win it all (http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bthesite/tv-lust/bal-the-amazing-race-finale-recap-bates-and-anthony-win-it-all-20130506,0,5586198,full.story)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 27, 2013, 12:44:35 PM
Washington Post: Streetcars, bike lanes and crosswalks: What's Mayor Gray's plan for D.C.? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/streetcars-bike-lanes-and-crosswalks-whats-mayor-grays-plan-for-dc/2013/05/24/4cc8b190-c21b-11e2-9fe2-6ee52d0eb7c1_story.html)

QuoteOn a rainy morning this spring, D.C. Mayor Vincent C. Gray led a group across Connecticut Avenue NW to demonstrate an unusual traffic signal designed to protect pedestrians when they want to cross but allow traffic to flow at all other times.

QuoteGray (D) said this was an example of what he wants: a city that accommodates drivers while encouraging other forms of travel, whether on bikes, buses, streetcars or feet.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 28, 2013, 09:36:27 AM
Washington Post: Speed cameras keep clicking away in the District (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/dc-puts-a-price-on-speeding-295-million/2013/05/27/56a6cb52-b357-11e2-9a98-4be1688d7d84_story.html)

QuoteThe $8 million box sits unmolested but detested beside a pillar in a tunnel that carries four lanes of traffic near the very heart of town.

QuoteIt clicks, it flashes, it clicks, it flashes.

QuoteThat box and the cameras inside it have generated 61,061 speeding tickets in the past seven months, transferring $8.1 million from the wallets of K Street drivers into the District's treasury. The cameras, which sit where four lanes of K Street dip under Washington Circle, is on pace to set a District record for cash earned by a speed camera.

QuoteThere are orange warning signs – "Photo Enforced"  – hanging beneath the 25 mph signs on either end of the tunnel, but they are missed or ignored by an average of 305 drivers a day who receive speeding tickets in the mail.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 12, 2013, 11:25:40 PM
Washington Post: D.C. Council chairman says planned tax on commuter buses "˜is disappearing' (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-council-chairman-says-planned-tax-on-commuter-buses-is-disappearing/2013/06/12/3acf7008-d2cb-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story.html)

QuoteA $5 fee on every non-Metro commuter bus entering the city, every day it enters, has been placed into the District's new budget. The fee, calculated to raise $273,000 for the city, was approved unanimously by the D.C. Council's transportation and environment committee on May 9, and then by the entire council on May 22.

QuoteWhen word of the fee spread to the suburbs, many local officials were outraged. They declared it a "commuter tax"  and in recent days, the governors of Maryland and Virginia sent letters of protest to Mayor Vincent C. Gray (D) and the D.C. Council, asking them to reconsider the fee before their final budget vote Tuesday.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Doctor Whom on June 13, 2013, 09:44:26 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 12, 2013, 11:25:40 PM
Washington Post: D.C. Council chairman says planned tax on commuter buses "˜is disappearing' (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-council-chairman-says-planned-tax-on-commuter-buses-is-disappearing/2013/06/12/3acf7008-d2cb-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story.html)
Way to encourage people to take transit and businesses to stay in D.C.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 13, 2013, 09:49:37 AM
Quote from: Doctor Whom on June 13, 2013, 09:44:26 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 12, 2013, 11:25:40 PM
Washington Post: D.C. Council chairman says planned tax on commuter buses "˜is disappearing' (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-council-chairman-says-planned-tax-on-commuter-buses-is-disappearing/2013/06/12/3acf7008-d2cb-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story.html)
Way to encourage people to take transit and businesses to stay in D.C.

Yeah, that does not make so much sense, does it?  Especially to anyone that listens to D.C. elected officials advocating in favor of transit.

IMO, this has more than a few similarities to the D.C. speed cameras especially - it was a way to raise revenue for the D.C. Government from people that do not live or vote in the city.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 13, 2013, 02:01:57 PM
Washington Post: "˜Violence for violence's sake is troubling,' says cyclist attacked by youths on D.C. trail (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/bicyclist-attacked-on-dc-trail-by-up-to-15-youths-police-say/2013/06/12/2e9a9d80-d366-11e2-b05f-3ea3f0e7bb5a_story.html)

QuoteThe bicyclist doesn't remember seeing the youths run at him as he pedaled home late Tuesday afternoon on the Metropolitan Branch Trail, but he certainly recalls one knocking him off his bike and at least a dozen others piling on, punching and kicking him in the head.

QuoteWhat the 37-year-old can't understand is why they did it.

QuoteThey didn't take his $500 bicycle. They ignored his cellphone. They didn't want the $20 in his wallet. In fact, the victim said, "I didn't hear a word."

QuoteAnd the lack of apparent motive is haunting the married father of two, who uses the trail regularly to bike between his office in the NoMa section of the District and his house in Silver Spring.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on June 14, 2013, 04:08:03 AM
A friend of mine apparently got similarly attacked on bike at 11th and Pennsylvania SE yesterday evening, but was able to escape.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 14, 2013, 01:03:59 PM
the hazing rituals that new elected officials have to perform in order to be accepted as a member of "the club" are getting more bizarre every year.  whatever happened to a good old-fashioned game of egg-the-lobbyist?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: kj3400 on June 17, 2013, 05:39:02 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 14, 2013, 01:03:59 PM
the hazing rituals that new elected officials have to perform in order to be accepted as a member of "the club" are getting more bizarre every year.  whatever happened to a good old-fashioned game of egg-the-lobbyist?

Shame, isn't it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 19, 2013, 05:50:08 PM
WTOP Radio: 6 hurt, pedestrian pinned in D.C. crash (http://www.wtop.com/109/3363152/6-hurt-pedestrian-pinned-in-DC-crash)

QuoteSix people were hurt after a crash involving two vehicles near Union Station in D.C. Wednesday morning, officials say.

QuotePolice say the crash happened just before 8 a.m. at the intersection of Massachusetts Avenue and North Capitol Street NW. The driver of an SUV -- who a witness tells WTOP was trying to beat a light -- struck a pole and three pedestrians.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 27, 2013, 06:22:29 PM
WTOP Radio: Congress may consider banning DC traffic cameras (http://www.wtop.com/41/3372912/Congress-may-consider-banning-DC-traffic-cameras)

QuoteA Republican congressman from Michigan may propose a ban on speed and red-light enforcement cameras in the District of Columbia.

QuoteRep. Kerry Bentivolio has circulated a bill that would strip the city government of its authority to use the cameras. A spokesman for Bentivolio says the bill has not yet been finalized but that the final version will "protect the people's rights, not take them away."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 24, 2013, 11:48:32 PM
Dr. Gridlock in the Washington Post: D.C. region's commuters share frustration, but little else (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/dr-gridlock-dc-regions-commuters-share-frustration-but-little-else/2013/07/23/d492fe04-ecc9-11e2-a1f9-ea873b7e0424_story.html)

QuoteCould there be light at the end of the chronically congested tunnel? There has been a lot of talk lately about traffic easing up, road improvements taking effect and people telecommuting more.

QuoteYes, there are serious indicators that the mental health of commuters is improving. In a Washington Post poll conducted last month, commuters in the Washington region who drive reported on average that their trips take 31 minutes, down six minutes from the average in a 2005 poll. And they're adopting more sensible habits. For example, 20 percent of commuters said they telework at least once a week, compared with 11 percent in a 2010 poll.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 26, 2013, 05:02:46 AM
Quotethe final version will "protect the people's rights, not take them away."

That's a funny thing to say, since the District's residents are overwhelmingly in favor of the cameras, and District residents also "don't have any rights" in Congress.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 26, 2013, 08:49:37 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 26, 2013, 05:02:46 AM
That's a funny thing to say, since the District's residents are overwhelmingly in favor of the cameras, and District residents also "don't have any rights" in Congress.

Though I know several D.C. residents who have been banged with such tickets, and are not especially enthused about it.

Still, I strongly agree with your point.  The colonial status of the District of Columbia needs to end - preferably through retrocession to Maryland (while retaining a federal enclave around the monumental core), since I don't think D.C. statehood is ever going to happen.

Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) has (again) introduced a bill in Congress (http://www.dcvote.org/media/media.cfm?mediaID=4761) to do just that.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 28, 2013, 02:36:54 AM
Dr. Gridlock in the Washington Post: D.C. not making friends with freeway work (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2013/07/26/d-c-not-making-friends-with-freeway-work/)

QuoteThe phase launched last Saturday is scheduled to continue till Aug. 10, closing the left-most lanes on both sides of Interstate 695 near South Capitol Street.

QuoteStarting Saturday and continuing till Aug. 11, another phase will close the right lane on the westbound side of the Interstate approaching the Third Street Tunnel.

QuoteThe third phase, from Aug. 11 to Aug. 31, will close the right eastbound lane from the South Capitol Street exit to Sixth Street SE.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 31, 2013, 10:26:49 PM
Dr. Gridlock in the Washington Post: D.C. presents traffic plan for South Capitol Street (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2013/07/31/d-c-presents-traffic-plan-for-south-capitol-street/)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 23, 2013, 02:17:13 PM
WAMU Radio: D.C. Transportation Engineers Face Tough Choices, Testy Commuters (http://wamu.org/news/13/08/22/dc_transportation_engineers_face_tough_choices_testy_commuters)

QuoteRoads and bridges need to be fixed, sometimes entirely replaced. Traffic has to be managed. And commuters have to be kept satisfied. In a city whose population has eclipsed 600,000 and is growing–as transportation demand places ever more pressure on aging infrastructure–engineers at the District Department of Transportation face tough choices that often leave some commuters pleased while angering others.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 28, 2013, 02:37:33 PM
Washington Post: All your suspicions confirmed: Washington has nation's worst drivers (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2013/08/28/all-your-suspicions-confirmed-washington-has-nations-worst-drivers/)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 28, 2013, 04:31:47 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 28, 2013, 02:37:33 PM
Washington Post: All your suspicions confirmed: Washington has nation's worst drivers by one very specific criterion (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2013/08/28/all-your-suspicions-confirmed-washington-has-nations-worst-drivers/)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 29, 2013, 08:04:01 AM
DC adding cameras to enforce stop signs, box-blocking, and yielding to pedestrians. (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/DC-Police-Adding-Cameras-to-Enforce-Stop-Signs-Blocking-the-Box-Yielding-to-Pedestrians-221531301.html)

I wonder if they'll ticket you even if the pedestrian is in the wrong. Last night I was in Alexandria and a woman with a small child waited until I had a green light and then waddled out into the crosswalk right as I started to drive (and managed to pause for her mobile phone conversation long enough to scream "fuck you" at me). If the pedestrian is ignoring a "don't walk" sign, the driver going straight through a green light should not be ticketed, but I wouldn't put it past DC to start issuing such tickets using cameras.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on August 29, 2013, 10:27:48 PM
Given how anti-car DC is, they would probably expressly engineer the cameras to give a ticket even if the pedestrian darted into the freeway at the last possible second just 2 feet in front of a car.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alex on August 30, 2013, 10:24:38 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 29, 2013, 08:04:01 AM
DC adding cameras to enforce stop signs, box-blocking, and yielding to pedestrians. (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/DC-Police-Adding-Cameras-to-Enforce-Stop-Signs-Blocking-the-Box-Yielding-to-Pedestrians-221531301.html)

I wonder if they'll ticket you even if the pedestrian is in the wrong. Last night I was in Alexandria and a woman with a small child waited until I had a green light and then waddled out into the crosswalk right as I started to drive (and managed to pause for her mobile phone conversation long enough to scream "fuck you" at me). If the pedestrian is ignoring a "don't walk" sign, the driver going straight through a green light should not be ticketed, but I wouldn't put it past DC to start issuing such tickets using cameras.

Unfortunately cameras are absolute and will make no exceptions, even if an idiot on a mobile phone jaywalks. Ugh, too much reliance on devices to do a job that requires an actual person...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 10:38:36 AM
Quote from: Alex on August 30, 2013, 10:24:38 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 29, 2013, 08:04:01 AM
DC adding cameras to enforce stop signs, box-blocking, and yielding to pedestrians. (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/DC-Police-Adding-Cameras-to-Enforce-Stop-Signs-Blocking-the-Box-Yielding-to-Pedestrians-221531301.html)

I wonder if they'll ticket you even if the pedestrian is in the wrong. Last night I was in Alexandria and a woman with a small child waited until I had a green light and then waddled out into the crosswalk right as I started to drive (and managed to pause for her mobile phone conversation long enough to scream "fuck you" at me). If the pedestrian is ignoring a "don't walk" sign, the driver going straight through a green light should not be ticketed, but I wouldn't put it past DC to start issuing such tickets using cameras.

Unfortunately cameras are absolute and will make no exceptions, even if an idiot on a mobile phone jaywalks. Ugh, too much reliance on devices to do a job that requires an actual person...

Well, you know, I wonder about it and here's why: Surely a camera can be tied into the light cycle, right? If you have a green light, for example, the red-light camera isn't supposed to ticket you for going through (I know I've never received any such ticket). Surely the pedestrian camera can likewise be tied to the light cycle so that if a driver proceeds straight through the light (I emphasize straight through), the camera will not fire, even if a pedestrian illegally crosses against a "DON'T WALK" sign. However, I have zero confidence in DC that this will happen. As "vdeane" says, DC's anti-car mentality is consistently getting worse, but taking the Metro to Capitals or Nationals games is not something I consider a serious option except in special circumstances (e.g., on the day of the Christmas tree lighting on the Ellipse, I'll take the Metro to Verizon Center because of all the street closures). It's faster, cheaper, more pleasant, and more reliable to drive. I suppose if it comes down to it I might just have to reconsider whether to continue going to games, which is a shame.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 10:48:35 AM
Quote from: Alex on August 30, 2013, 10:24:38 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 29, 2013, 08:04:01 AM
DC adding cameras to enforce stop signs, box-blocking, and yielding to pedestrians. (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/DC-Police-Adding-Cameras-to-Enforce-Stop-Signs-Blocking-the-Box-Yielding-to-Pedestrians-221531301.html)

I wonder if they'll ticket you even if the pedestrian is in the wrong. Last night I was in Alexandria and a woman with a small child waited until I had a green light and then waddled out into the crosswalk right as I started to drive (and managed to pause for her mobile phone conversation long enough to scream "fuck you" at me). If the pedestrian is ignoring a "don't walk" sign, the driver going straight through a green light should not be ticketed, but I wouldn't put it past DC to start issuing such tickets using cameras.

Unfortunately cameras are absolute and will make no exceptions, even if an idiot on a mobile phone jaywalks. Ugh, too much reliance on devices to do a job that requires an actual person...

District of Columbia municipal police officers, with rare exceptions, are not interested in writing traffic tickets.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 10:51:17 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 29, 2013, 10:27:48 PM
Given how anti-car DC is, they would probably expressly engineer the cameras to give a ticket even if the pedestrian darted into the freeway at the last possible second just 2 feet in front of a car.

I agree.  However, D.C. is curiously not anti-car when it comes to collecting taxes and fees and fines from drivers to subsidize mass transit (including the excellent Circulator bus system).

The automated enforcement is about collecting more fines from drivers that do not live in the District of Columbia.  Since the  District is prohibited by its charter from levying a so-called commuter tax (the holy grail of more than a few D.C. politicians), this is the alternative.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 11:25:04 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 10:48:35 AM
District of Columbia municipal police officers, with rare exceptions, are not interested in writing traffic tickets.

indeed.  I once ran a red fair and square, and got off with a warning.

(it was one of those L'Enfant anachronisms where an intersection is followed within ~20 feet by another one that is completely independent of it.  one turned green and I zoomed through both.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 11:59:46 AM
Washington Post:   Dirt bike dreams face reality of D.C. police enforcement (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dirt-bike-dreams-face-reality-of-dc-police-enforcement/2013/08/26/69f77148-0ba9-11e3-b87c-476db8ac34cd_story.html)

Barry tweets concerns about D.C. dirt bike enforcement (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/barry-tweets-concerns-about-dc-dirt-bike-enforcement/2013/08/29/c4ff8cbc-110b-11e3-bdf6-e4fc677d94a1_story.html)

The above are especially amusing, given that former D.C. Mayor-for-Life Marion Shepilov Barry, Jr. used to preach that transit was the solution for all transportation problems as a founding member of the anti-highway/anti-auto Emergency Committee on the Transportation Crisis (but, of course, never for himself - and apparently not for his current Ward 8 constituents either).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 12:01:24 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 11:25:04 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 10:48:35 AM
District of Columbia municipal police officers, with rare exceptions, are not interested in writing traffic tickets.

indeed.  I once ran a red fair and square, and got off with a warning.

I am surprised that you were even stopped!

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 11:25:04 AM
(it was one of those L'Enfant anachronisms where an intersection is followed within ~20 feet by another one that is completely independent of it.  one turned green and I zoomed through both.)

Those are pretty common in some parts of D.C.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 12:04:50 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 12:01:24 PM
I am surprised that you were even stopped!

she was right behind me, in a marked police vehicle!  I think at that point she figured "gosh, I guess I have to".

it was also a Saturday at ~2am so I was probably given a quick once-over to verify my sobriety.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 12:13:14 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 12:04:50 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 12:01:24 PM
I am surprised that you were even stopped!

she was right behind me, in a marked police vehicle!  I think at that point she figured "gosh, I guess I have to".

it was also a Saturday at ~2am so I was probably given a quick once-over to verify my sobriety.

That makes sense. 

Most D.C. cops could care less about traffic infractions - even those involving alcohol.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 01:38:49 PM
WTOP has a story about the stop sign cameras (http://wtop.com/654/3436848/On-tape-Who-makes-a-complete-stop) in which they set up a video camera near a stop sign to see how many people came to a complete stop. They say in five minutes, six out of 21 vehicles stopped fully. But the part of the video that made me ponder the idea of cameras is watching how few people stop behind the stop bar (hardly unique to this intersection, of course). If DC really wanted to make a killing, they'd set the cameras to ticket anyone who fails to come to a complete stop completely behind the line. I wouldn't put it past them, either.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Brandon on August 30, 2013, 02:12:45 PM
DC drivers, as far as I am concerned, have earned their place as some of the worst in the nation.  It is, to date, the only place where we had a vehicle behind us make a Pittsburgh Left as we were waiting for opposing traffic to clear.  We were in the intersection waiting to make our left turn when a cab behind us suddenly did so cutting off opposing traffic.  I've never had that happen in Chicago, and Chicago drivers are not known for patience nor etiquette on the road.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 02:15:57 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 30, 2013, 02:12:45 PM
DC drivers, as far as I am concerned, have earned their place as some of the worst in the nation.  It is, to date, the only place where we had a vehicle behind us make a Pittsburgh Left as we were waiting for opposing traffic to clear.  We were in the intersection waiting to make our left turn when a cab behind us suddenly did so cutting off opposing traffic.  I've never had that happen in Chicago, and Chicago drivers are not known for patience nor etiquette on the road.

I'd expect that to happen in Miami.  I'd expect the offending vehicle to come out of the right lane.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 02:31:00 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 30, 2013, 02:12:45 PM
DC drivers, as far as I am concerned, have earned their place as some of the worst in the nation.  It is, to date, the only place where we had a vehicle behind us make a Pittsburgh Left as we were waiting for opposing traffic to clear.  We were in the intersection waiting to make our left turn when a cab behind us suddenly did so cutting off opposing traffic.  I've never had that happen in Chicago, and Chicago drivers are not known for patience nor etiquette on the road.

Pittsburgh lefts are very common in the District of Columbia.  Maybe we should call them D.C. lefts? Many D.C. drivers will also drive in the opposing traffic lane to make a left at the next intersection if the "coast is clear."  Another favorite is driving on the shoulder (of the relatively few roads with  shoulders in D.C.) in congested conditions.

Then there's (what I call) the D.C. queue jump.  Many streets in D.C. (even busy ones) are two lane, but just open one lane in each direction, with parked cars in the right lane (sometimes there is no parking during peak demand periods, but not always).  But those busy two-lane streets often have bus stops (no parking anytime at the bus stop), usually located just before a signalized intersection.  So if there is not a bus servicing  the stop, aggressive D.C. drivers will use the (vacant) right lane where the bus stop is to jump around other traffic waiting at a signal, cutting in front of other drivers (and sometimes putting pedestrians at great risk). 

I am usually  aware of this, and if I am first at a signalized light in the left lane when a prospective queue jumper pulls up next to me (usually  very easy to predict them), I will (if no pedestrians are jaywalking or vehicles present in the intersection on the cross street) make a point of taking off immediately when the light changes to green (hard acceleration is not required), which is usually enough to strand them behind parked cars on the other side of the intersection, since the platoon of vehicles behind me will usually not let them in.

D.C. has a lot of drivers (like those above) that would be much happier if they had an adequate system of urban freeways and expressways to drive on, but the politicians that they vote for don't want that.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 02:41:54 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 01:38:49 PM
WTOP has a story about the stop sign cameras (http://wtop.com/654/3436848/On-tape-Who-makes-a-complete-stop) in which they set up a video camera near a stop sign to see how many people came to a complete stop. They say in five minutes, six out of 21 vehicles stopped fully. But the part of the video that made me ponder the idea of cameras is watching how few people stop behind the stop bar (hardly unique to this intersection, of course). If DC really wanted to make a killing, they'd set the cameras to ticket anyone who fails to come to a complete stop completely behind the line. I wouldn't put it past them, either.

I always stop at STOP signs (even in D.C., where there are thousands of STOP signs that have been installed even if they were not warranted, most as a form of "traffic calming" (even though that practice is frowned upon in the MUTCD ["YIELD or STOP signs should not be used for speed control"] and according to a research paper I found on the ITE Web site does not reduce speeds (here (http://www.ite.org/traffic/documents/aha99b49.pdf), Adobe Acrobat .pdf)).  Usually I engage first gear to reduce clutch wear, which can only be done at a complete stop. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 02:49:12 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 02:31:00 PM
I am usually  aware of this, and if I am first at a signalized light in the left lane when a prospective queue jumper pulls up next to me (usually  very easy to predict them), I will (if no pedestrians are jaywalking or vehicles present in the intersection on the cross street) make a point of taking off immediately when the light changes to green (hard acceleration is not required), which is usually enough to strand them behind parked cars on the other side of the intersection, since the platoon of vehicles behind me will usually not let them in.

I'd get in just behind you, then, and still very likely ahead of those who are moseying off the green.

I don't think this "queue jumping" is all that dangerous a habit... at least, not out here, as the roads on which I do this tend to have a lot fewer pedestrians.  so I may just not be imagining it correctly; but wouldn't the pedestrians at the light be going parallel to the flow of vehicular traffic once the light turns green? 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 02:54:01 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 02:49:12 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 02:31:00 PM
I am usually  aware of this, and if I am first at a signalized light in the left lane when a prospective queue jumper pulls up next to me (usually  very easy to predict them), I will (if no pedestrians are jaywalking or vehicles present in the intersection on the cross street) make a point of taking off immediately when the light changes to green (hard acceleration is not required), which is usually enough to strand them behind parked cars on the other side of the intersection, since the platoon of vehicles behind me will usually not let them in.

I'd get in just behind you, then, and still very likely ahead of those who are moseying off the green.

I don't think this "queue jumping" is all that dangerous a habit... at least, not out here, as the roads on which I do this tend to have a lot fewer pedestrians.  so I may just not be imagining it correctly; but wouldn't the pedestrians at the light be going parallel to the flow of vehicular traffic once the light turns green?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

In the District of Columbia, the prevailing attitude among many pedestrians seems to be, "If I want to walk, I get to walk whenever and wherever I want." It's often very hard to gun it off the line in the District because there are so many jaywalkers who continue to walk after the light changes. A lot of them don't hop to it, either. I'd say more, but I think I'd offend some people if I engaged in various stereotyping.

Heck, on Wednesday night my wife and I were heading to dinner in Old Town Alexandria in Virginia (just across the river from DC). A pedestrian waited on the curb and then, as soon as I got a green light, walked into the street in front of me against the light. Worse, she had a small child holding her hand. I'm positive she deliberately waited just to be obnoxious.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 02:56:25 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 02:49:12 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 02:31:00 PM
I am usually  aware of this, and if I am first at a signalized light in the left lane when a prospective queue jumper pulls up next to me (usually  very easy to predict them), I will (if no pedestrians are jaywalking or vehicles present in the intersection on the cross street) make a point of taking off immediately when the light changes to green (hard acceleration is not required), which is usually enough to strand them behind parked cars on the other side of the intersection, since the platoon of vehicles behind me will usually not let them in.

I'd get in just behind you, then, and still very likely ahead of those who are moseying off the green.

That sometimes happens, but since I don't speed (obeying the nearly citywide 25 MPH limit), that still angers the failed queue jumper who probably wants to be zipping along at between 40MPH and 50 MPH (until arriving at the next red light - D.C. signals are often very  poorly timed).

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 02:49:12 PM
I don't think this "queue jumping" is all that dangerous a habit... at least, not out here, as the roads on which I do this tend to have a lot fewer pedestrians.  so I may just not be imagining it correctly; but wouldn't the pedestrians at the light be going parallel to the flow of vehicular traffic once the light turns green?

In theory, yes, pedestrians would be walking parallel to the flow of traffic with the green signal. 

But jaywalking in the District of Columbia is common (and pervasive) at many intersections - often drunks or young people (or young drunks).  I don't want to mow-down a D.C. jaywalker, even for jaywalking. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 02:57:10 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 02:56:25 PM
....

But jaywalking in the District of Columbia is common (and pervasive) at many intersections - often drunks or young people (or young drunks).  I don't want to mow-down a D.C. jaywalker, even for jaywalking. 

I often want to mow them down, but I refrain from doing so because I don't want to go to jail.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: DeaconG on August 30, 2013, 03:03:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 02:57:10 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 02:56:25 PM
....

But jaywalking in the District of Columbia is common (and pervasive) at many intersections - often drunks or young people (or young drunks).  I don't want to mow-down a D.C. jaywalker, even for jaywalking. 

I often want to mow them down, but I refrain from doing so because I don't want to go to jail.

Death Race 2000 flashbacks?
"Mow down six pedestrians-same player shoots again!"
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 03:18:15 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 02:56:25 PM
But jaywalking in the District of Columbia is common (and pervasive) at many intersections - often drunks or young people (or young drunks).  I don't want to mow-down a D.C. jaywalker, even for jaywalking.

got it.  I'm used to Boston and New York jaywalkers, who seem to have their brains about them.  they time it as to not impede someone with a green light.

in California, nearly no one jaywalks... if they do, they time it like someone from the aforementioned categories.  the only pedestrian conflicts we have out here are with right or left turning traffic.

for some reason, I don't remember driving in DC to be particularly stressful.  I remember it being comparable to various other cities in the northeast.  not quite as good as New York, but hardly anywhere is.  Boston comes close.  but DC, Baltimore, Philly, etc all seem similar to me.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 30, 2013, 09:40:24 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 30, 2013, 03:18:15 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 30, 2013, 02:56:25 PM
But jaywalking in the District of Columbia is common (and pervasive) at many intersections - often drunks or young people (or young drunks).  I don't want to mow-down a D.C. jaywalker, even for jaywalking.

got it.  I'm used to Boston and New York jaywalkers, who seem to have their brains about them.  they time it as to not impede someone with a green light.

....

To me, this is the key. I wouldn't give a rat's arse about jaywalking if people did it intelligently so as not to hold up traffic. NE2's standard rant notwithstanding, I'm not about to run over anyone, even if I'd like to do so.....but it shouldn't be a question either way!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 10, 2013, 09:10:51 PM
Washington Post: Drivers, beware: D.C. to aim more cameras at traffic scofflaws (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/drivers-beware-dc-to-aim-more-cameras-at-traffic-scofflaws/2013/09/10/c6733ef0-1655-11e3-a2ec-b47e45e6f8ef_story.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on September 14, 2013, 12:23:22 AM
Off topic post removed about carjackings. While they happen on roads, they are unrelated to roads. Please post those in OT, or better yet, don't post them at all.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 15, 2013, 04:43:51 PM
Washington Post: Work to close ramp from Roosevelt Bridge to G.W. Parkway (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2013/09/15/work-to-close-ramp-from-roosevelt-bridge-to-g-w-parkway/)

QuoteThe District Department of Transportation will close a ramp leading from the Teddy Roosevelt Bridge for several hours each day over the next month, which could create headaches for travelers.

QuoteMaintenance work will close the ramp from westbound Interstate 66 to the George Washington Parkway between 9:30 a.m. and 3 p.m. each day. These closures are scheduled to begin on Monday and will last until Oct. 14, if the weather cooperates.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 29, 2013, 07:26:11 PM
Washington Post:  Breathing easier: Washington, D.C.'s remarkable improvement in air quality (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2013/09/26/breathing-easier-washington-d-c-s-remarkable-improvement-in-air-quality/)

QuoteFor the first time since 2009, and only the second time in the last 16 years, Washington, D.C. had zero code red days for unhealthy air quality in the summer of 2013. This reprieve from suffocating air represents another data point fitting into a a recent trend towards cleaner air.

QuoteThe District had just four days — the lowest since 2009 — that exceeded the "standard"  for ozone (a concentration of 75 parts per billion, ppb). Above the standard, air quality begins to become unhealthy for sensitive groups (older adults, children, and people with respiratory problems), reaching the code orange level.

QuoteOzone forms when air pollutants react on hot, sunny summer days. At high concentrations, ozone can cause respiratory issues, fatigue, headaches, nausea, chest pain, and eye and throat irritation.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on September 30, 2013, 02:01:51 AM
Summertime weather being a departure from recent years likely played the main factor in that.  Yes, pollution factors in, but weather conditions are the primary culprit.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 30, 2013, 09:19:53 AM
Quote from: froggie on September 30, 2013, 02:01:51 AM
Summertime weather being a departure from recent years likely played the main factor in that.  Yes, pollution factors in, but weather conditions are the primary culprit.

As do massive coal-fired electric generating stations far to the west of D.C. such as Conemaugh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conemaugh_Generating_Station),  Kammer, Keystone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Generating_Station), Mitchell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Power_Plant), Mount Storm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Storm_Power_Station), and several others. During the 2003 Northeast Blackout (which did not directly impact D.C., Maryland  and Virginia), air quality markedly and suddenly improved because many of those coal-fired plants, unable to sell power to the Northeast, were shut-down.

But I think the real credit for improved air quality comes down to improved vehicle emission control systems (the fleet gets cleaner every year as it turns over) and to ultra-low-sulfur Diesel fuel, which instantly reduced emissions of all on-highway Diesel engines.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 30, 2013, 03:08:00 PM
Washington Post: New York, D.C.-area workers face longest commutes (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2013/09/30/new-york-d-c-area-workers-face-longest-commutes/)

QuoteResidents of the nation's financial and governmental centers spend longer getting to and from work than other Americans, according to Census Bureau statistics released earlier this month, in part because they rely more on public transportation than their compatriots in other cities.

QuoteThe data show residents of four of New York City's five boroughs spend more than 40 minutes a day traveling to and from work. Bronx residents take 42.8 minutes every day to get to their places of employment, tops in the nation. And residents of several suburban and exurban counties around Washington, D.C., including Stafford, Fauquier and Prince William counties in Virginia and Charles, Calvert and Prince George's counties, Maryland, also spend nearly 40 minutes a day getting to and from work.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 02, 2013, 08:58:56 PM
Washington Post: Federal shutdown brings new commuting woes for Washington area residents (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/federal-shutdown-brings-new-commuting-woes-for-washington-area-residents/2013/10/02/c95b7e72-2b6b-11e3-8ade-a1f23cda135e_story.html)

QuoteWhat Washington area commuters hoped would be a silver lining of a federal government shutdown – a less-frenzied rush hour – didn't materialize for many Wednesday, leaving some to ask: If hundreds of thousands of federal workers stayed home, why was my commute still so bad?

Quote"It was the volume that shocked me,"  said Jean Stoner, who had expected a breeze of a drive between her Arlington County home and her office at the Health Information Services division of 3M, in Bethesda. Eastbound Route 50 and roads through Rosslyn were "incredibly slow and congested,"  she said.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on October 08, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
In my local neck of the woods here in Silver Spring, I notice no traffic improvement.  I don't usually commute on the expressways.  My usual trouble spots are at the several public and private schools that I pass.  Since school is in session, traffic is bad.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 08, 2013, 09:54:06 PM
Quote from: mrsman on October 08, 2013, 01:42:08 PM
In my local neck of the woods here in Silver Spring, I notice no traffic improvement.  I don't usually commute on the expressways.  My usual trouble spots are at the several public and private schools that I pass.  Since school is in session, traffic is bad.

At some point, this may get some formal research - probably when the (partial) shut-down of the federal government is over.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 12, 2013, 11:56:15 AM
Washington Post: In the shadow of the 11th Street Bridge, locals build a new future for themselves (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/in-the-shadow-of-the-11th-street-bridge-locals-build-a-new-future-for-themselves/2013/11/10/14fdec60-3d8d-11e3-a94f-b58017bfee6c_story.html)

QuoteMalachi Yisrael stands and speaks before a couple dozen people in the back of a construction trailer just east of the 11th Street Bridge to Anacostia. The room is decorated with white and red balloons. Construction plans and photographs of people in orange work vests cover the walls.

QuoteIt's a graduation ceremony, of sorts, and Yisrael, 39, is one of the commencement speakers.

QuoteHe sports a bright blue plaid button-down shirt, big dreads and a bigger smile, plus a criminal record that starts at age 13. He's just happy to be there. So are the seven graduating students who are part of an innovative training program that puts some of the city's most disadvantaged adults on the engineering side of a construction job site.

QuoteThe program is part of the D.C. Department of Transportation's 11th Street Bridge Project, the most expensive job the department has ever undertaken. On-the-job training programs are mandatory for projects that receive federal funding. They give local residents a chance to learn a skill. Usually, they're for the lowest-paid positions – the hard labor.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on November 12, 2013, 01:44:14 PM
Didn't know if CP would post this given that he works for MWCOG, but a high-ranking official within MWCOG, Transportation Research Board director of transportation planning Ron Kirby, was found fatally shot at his home in Alexandria.  My thoughts and condolences to the Kirby's and those at MWCOG.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/dc-council-of-governments-official-slain-in-home/2013/11/12/c08d1590-4bb8-11e3-be6b-d3d28122e6d4_story.html
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Henry on November 12, 2013, 01:47:08 PM
Quote from: froggie on November 12, 2013, 01:44:14 PM
Didn't know if CP would post this given that he works for MWCOG, but a high-ranking official within MWCOG, Transportation Research Board director of transportation planning Ron Kirby, was found fatally shot at his home in Alexandria.  My thoughts and condolences to the Kirby's and those at MWCOG.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/dc-council-of-governments-official-slain-in-home/2013/11/12/c08d1590-4bb8-11e3-be6b-d3d28122e6d4_story.html
That's horrible! :(
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 12, 2013, 07:24:41 PM
Quote from: froggie on November 12, 2013, 01:44:14 PM
Didn't know if CP would post this given that he works for MWCOG, but a high-ranking official within MWCOG, Transportation Research Board director of transportation planning Ron Kirby, was found fatally shot at his home in Alexandria.  My thoughts and condolences to the Kirby's and those at MWCOG.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/dc-council-of-governments-official-slain-in-home/2013/11/12/c08d1590-4bb8-11e3-be6b-d3d28122e6d4_story.html

Thanks, Adam.  I posted the words below on Facebook:

QuoteAdam ("Froggie") posted this in the DCROADS.NET Facebook group, but I am posting this article here since the loss of Ron Kirby impacts me directly - he was the longtime senior manager of everyone where I have worked for many years. In addition to understanding long-range transportation planning (and short-range planning, too), he understood the politics of the District of Columbia, Suburban Maryland and Northern Virginia, transportation policy at the federal level, and he also knew how to listen to people while being "aggressively neutral" when dealing with a very diverse cast of people (including many elected officials) and their points of view. Beyond all of that, he was a good manager, respected by his staff, from older set-in-their ways types (like me) to the youngest interns. Everyone on his staff was proud to be able to say that they worked for Ron. As to the circumstances of his death, I know nothing beyond what is being reported by the Washington Post in the article below.

QuoteThe Washington, D.C. area (and the transportation planning profession at the national level) have suffered a terrible loss.

WTOP Radio's story:  Council of Governments official found shot to death in Alexandria home (http://www.wtop.com/134/3502925/Local-official-killed-in-his-Alexandria-home)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 14, 2013, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: froggie on November 12, 2013, 01:44:14 PM
Didn't know if CP would post this given that he works for MWCOG, but a high-ranking official within MWCOG, Transportation Research Board director of transportation planning Ron Kirby, was found fatally shot at his home in Alexandria.  My thoughts and condolences to the Kirby's and those at MWCOG.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/dc-council-of-governments-official-slain-in-home/2013/11/12/c08d1590-4bb8-11e3-be6b-d3d28122e6d4_story.html

Washington Post: Alexandria police asking for help in Ronald Kirby death (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/police-asking-for-help-in-kirby-case/2013/11/14/275f107a-4d58-11e3-ac54-aa84301ced81_story.html)

QuoteAlexandria police on Thursday asked for help in solving the slaying of 69-year-old Ronald Kirby this week, saying they do not have a person of interest in the death of the prominent regional transportation planner.

Quote"We'd like to have anyone who has any information, who might have been in contact with him in a social way or any other way that they think may bear some information to this investigation – we'd like them to come forward,"  Alexandria Police Chief Earl L. Cook said at a news conference at police headquarters.

QuoteKirby, the director of transportation planning at the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments, died Monday after being shot multiple times in the torso, according to authorities, who are investigating the case as a homicide.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 15, 2013, 09:55:52 AM
Quote from: froggie on November 12, 2013, 01:44:14 PM
Didn't know if CP would post this given that he works for MWCOG, but a high-ranking official within MWCOG, Transportation Research Board director of transportation planning Ron Kirby, was found fatally shot at his home in Alexandria.  My thoughts and condolences to the Kirby's and those at MWCOG.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/dc-council-of-governments-official-slain-in-home/2013/11/12/c08d1590-4bb8-11e3-be6b-d3d28122e6d4_story.html

Washington Post op-ed tribute:  RIP Ron Kirby: Region's top transportation expert leaves legacy of a model public servant (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/rip-ron-kirby-regions-top-transportation-expert-leaves-legacy-of-a-model-public-servant/2013/11/13/ed7a73e0-4c9e-11e3-ac54-aa84301ced81_story.html)

QuoteWhen I decided Monday to attend the next day's Montgomery County Council debate about an ambitious new plan for express buses, I immediately reached out to the best person I knew to give me a thorough, fair-minded preview of the project's pluses and minuses.

QuoteBut Ron Kirby never got my e-mail requesting a chat.

QuoteThe Washington region's top expert on its top problem – traffic congestion – had been fatally shot that day in his Alexandria home. No one has been charged in his homicide.

QuoteToday I am one of many journalists, officials, politicians and activists mourning the loss of a man who came as close as anyone I know to being a model public servant.

QuoteKirby, who was 69, was the well-informed, honest broker who won esteem from all sides in the high-stakes battles over roads, transit and land use. He did so by combining a powerful intellect (which earned him a PhD in applied mathematics) with hard work and a cordial, diplomatic manner.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 18, 2013, 12:54:56 AM
Washington Post: Transportation planner Ron Kirby's inquiring mind, sense of fairness remembered (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/transportation-planner-ron-kirbys-inquiring-mind-sense-of-fairness-remembered/2013/11/17/b093cd74-4f9a-11e3-9e2c-e1d01116fd98_story.html)

QuoteRonald F. Kirby was remembered Sunday as a man who found beauty in the arcane details of how Washington gets around.

Quote"Ron Kirby was an artist. Ron's canvas was the region,"  said Chuck Bean, executive director of the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments, where Kirby was the senior transportation planner. Bean spoke to hundreds of mourners gathered at a memorial service at an Alexandria funeral home and an overflow area nearby.

QuoteNeil Kirby recalled his brother's love of cars, including the Alfa Romeo and soft-top Mustang he once drove. Ron, as they'd say in their native Australia, was "a good bloke."

Quote"I couldn't have asked for a better brother,"  he said.

QuoteKirby, 69, was found slain in his Alexandria home Nov. 11, shot multiple times in the torso. A suspect has not been apprehended.

QuoteA photograph of Kirby bear-hugging a koala flashed on a screen to the right of his open casket. To the left was a picture his daughter, Marilyn, painted when she was 12. She had wanted to toss it in the trash, but Kirby insisted on saving it, then proudly had it framed.

QuoteFriends rose from the crowded benches to add their voices.

QuoteOne neighbor recalled a terrifying night when a giant rat appeared in her house while her toddler slept. She called Kirby, who appeared, tennis racket in hand, to handle it. Max Williamson, another neighbor and Kirby's Sunday tennis partner, noted, to laughs, that he "didn't realize how he did his training."

QuoteSince Kirby's death, tributes have been coming in from far beyond Washington, including flowers from the Southern California Association of Governments. Many sent in their condolences.

Quote"He was the most exciting, dynamic, cheerful, witty, fair-minded, and thoughtful human being I have ever had the privilege to know in life,"  wrote James Hogan, a longtime Washington colleague. Hogan recalled how Kirby described his approach to the dense, highly technical and highly charged job of transportation planning among representatives from more than 20 jurisdictions. It took Kirby just two words: "aggressive neutrality."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 11, 2013, 01:08:44 PM
It's a rare day when new streets open in downtown DC. On the way to last night's Caps game, we found two new segments of 10th Street and I Street (both NW) open next to the "City Center" project where the old convention center used to be. They opened sometime within the past week, as they were not open when we went to a game on December 3.

One oddity that might cause some trouble for inattentive drivers: The new segment of 10th Street, which runs between H Street and New York Avenue, is a two-way street, while the portions of 10th north of New York Avenue and south of H Street are both one-way southbound (the segment between Pennsylvania and Constitution is also two-way). It's rather strange to have that short two-block northbound lane on a street that is otherwise southbound-only, but I presume it's to give City Center residents an easy way to exit to New York Avenue–without it, because 9th Street is also one-way southbound they'd have to go around the block in what can be a rather congested area, and going around the block is further complicated by the intersection of 7th & H having a "No Turns" restriction (it's the Barnes Dance intersection).

It might be interesting to see how this changes the traffic flow in that area. We regularly use eastbound New York Avenue in that area en route to Caps games and it's always a nuisance during rush hour (except last night with the government closed) because the lights are horribly timed and can't handle the volume of traffic. You have to stop at every red light on New York and when your light goes green, the next light ahead goes red. Inevitably someone blocks the box. So having a new means of getting around to I Street might, in theory, take some traffic off New York in terms of people heading for Massachusetts Avenue (you can now take 10th, go left on I, and follow that to Massachusetts just east of 5th Street), and it might also relieve New York by eliminating the need for 10th Street traffic to go left on New York in order to access 9th Street to Virginia.

On this map, the new segment of 10th is in green and the new segment of I is in black. Both are two-way streets. I Street does not connect through to 11th Street. Instead, the area shown in red is a pedestrian-only area blocked off with metal bollards at either end (underscored with "Do Not Enter" signs). I would have liked it if they'd finished the street all the way through, as I'd find it to be a very useful route to the parking garage we use for games, but I'm not all that surprised they didn't.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FNewDCstreets_zps8fcbfa26.png&hash=19e6f136be7fb5f06ce33ef77efaa5328563bd96)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 12, 2013, 11:05:50 AM
Following up, two dashcam videos of the new streets noted above. In the first video, we're going eastbound on New York Avenue and we make a right onto the new portion of 10th Street, then a left onto the new portion of I, crossing onto the older portion of I. (On the map this means making a right onto the green stripe, then a left onto the black.) In the second video, we're going the opposite way on I after leaving the parking garage and we go across to 10th and then make a left (across the black stripe and then a left onto the green).

Click thumbnails to play. Neither is all that fascinating, but I thought someone might be interested in the new streets.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FDashcam%2520videos%2Fth_NewstreetsdowntownDC_zpsce2d6ff3.jpg&hash=abcbc9c96fb048adcf3965c5ec163ffa81fa3bdd) (http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/1995hoo/Dashcam%20videos/NewstreetsdowntownDC_zpsce2d6ff3.mp4)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FDashcam%2520videos%2Fth_NewstreetsdowntownDC2_zpsae635f69.jpg&hash=b0fcf973c5555eba5f086eeb2f43fc25164d9755) (http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/1995hoo/Dashcam%20videos/NewstreetsdowntownDC2_zpsae635f69.mp4)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: andrewkbrown on December 12, 2013, 11:26:07 PM
On the topic of new streets. A short section of 1st Street NW opened recently between H Street and I Street NW. It had been disconnected by a parking lot (and Google Maps still shows this), and it now runs along the site of one of two new Wal-Mart stores in DC, along with residential units above.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Washington,+DC&hl=en&ll=38.900201,-77.011317&spn=0.00243,0.005284&sll=39.761626,-84.051212&sspn=0.001697,0.003664&oq=was&t=h&hnear=Washington,+District+of+Columbia&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.900203,-77.012213&panoid=o-oj7DRvfVaPiRrycyL_kQ&cbp=12,19.38,,0,0.66

I'm unsure if the city will ever remove the Jersey barriers where 1st Street NW intersects New Jersey Avenue and Massachusetts Avenue NW now that the new section has opened. My engine company from the New Jersey Avenue and E Street NW firehouse frequently uses 1st Street NW as an alternate running route to avoid N. Capitol Street congestion during rush hours, and a fully opened 1st Street from the intersection northward would work great for us.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Washington,+DC&hl=en&ll=38.898928,-77.011344&spn=0.00243,0.005284&sll=39.761626,-84.051212&sspn=0.001697,0.003664&oq=was&t=h&hnear=Washington,+District+of+Columbia&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.898887,-77.012351&panoid=wcpir2AT0QE-KwncItFnYg&cbp=12,14.84,,0,5.8
Title: MOVED: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on December 13, 2013, 07:22:26 AM
Unrelated post has been moved to Off-Topic (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?board=9.0).

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11120.0
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 17, 2013, 11:55:49 PM
Quote from: froggie on November 12, 2013, 01:44:14 PM
Didn't know if CP would post this given that he works for MWCOG, but a high-ranking official within MWCOG, Transportation Research Board director of transportation planning Ron Kirby, was found fatally shot at his home in Alexandria.  My thoughts and condolences to the Kirby's and those at MWCOG.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/dc-council-of-governments-official-slain-in-home/2013/11/12/c08d1590-4bb8-11e3-be6b-d3d28122e6d4_story.html

The Alexandria Police are still investigating. 

WTOP Radio:  Fund started as as police ask public for help in Kirby murder case (http://www.wtop.com/134/3526839/Police-Who-spoke-to-Kirby-last-5-weeks)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 19, 2013, 11:55:20 AM
WAMU Radio: Transportation Forecasts Suggests Reducing Car Dependency A Must (http://wamu.org/news/13/12/18/traffic_planners_dc_metro_traffic_may_get_much_worse)

QuoteAs the Washington region's population and employment grow, traffic congestion will worsen and the percentage of all daily trips taken using transit will remain at seven percent through 2040, according to a forecast by transportation planners at the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments (MWCOG).

QuoteBut the "financially constrained"  forecast is based on the possibility Congress will not continue to fund Metro's rehabilitation, maintenance, and expansion beyond 2020, leading transit advocates to label it a technical analysis rather than a vision of what policy makers want for the region.

QuoteThe long range transportation forecast combines travel data from three regions: the regional core of D.C., Alexandria, and Arlington; the inner suburbs of Fairfax, Montgomery, and Prince George's Counties; and the outer suburbs of Charles, Frederick, Loudoun, and Prince William Counties.

QuoteWithout substantial investments in mass transit, including Metro's move to using only eight-car trains during rush hours, the number of roadway lane miles that will be congested during the morning commute will increase by 71 percent, the forecast said. The increase in demand on the region's roadways is expected to outpace the supply of new lanes.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 25, 2013, 11:59:07 PM
Washington Post: In NW Washington, Broad Branch Road is neither broad nor sturdy for its load (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/in-nw-washington-broad-branch-road-is-neither-broad-nor-sturdy-for-its-load/2013/12/25/c540c384-6738-11e3-8b5b-a77187b716a3_story.html)

QuoteRunning for a mile and a half alongside Rock Creek Park, Broad Branch Road is, in many ways, a classic country road in the middle of the city. Narrow and winding, it is tucked among the wooded hills of the park and mid-century homes, a few scattered embassies and the former estate of Marjorie Merriweather Post.

QuotePicturesque as it is, Broad Branch has become a commuter route, carrying thousands of people who use it to bypass Connecticut Avenue and 16th Street in upper Northwest Washington. The signs of age and heavy use are evident. Chunks of the retaining wall that runs along the serpentine creek bed at the park's edge are falling off. The road – marked with potholes and worn edges – frequently floods. And pedes­trians and bicyclists complain that there's no room for them on the stretch of shoulderless road, as it runs from Linnean Avenue to Beach Drive.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 28, 2013, 11:11:54 AM
WTOP Radio: Nearly 100 D.C. traffic cameras to start ticketing (http://www.wtop.com/41/3532045/Nearly-100-DC-traffic-cameras-to-start-ticketing)

QuoteWASHINGTON - For the last month, drivers were getting warnings, but starting on Monday the nearly 100 newly installed traffic cameras around the District will start issuing tickets.

QuoteSeven types of new traffic cameras installed across the city will automatically ticket drivers for violations if they run a red light; speed; run a stop sign; don't give a pedestrian the right of way; block a traffic intersection or speed through one; or if they have an over-sized vehicle on a restricted street.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: hotdogPi on December 28, 2013, 11:22:15 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 28, 2013, 11:11:54 AM
don't give a pedestrian the right of way

What if it looks like the pedestrian wants to cross (at least to the camera), but he says no (perhaps waiting for something else)?

Quoteblock a traffic intersection

Gridlock?



And 4 posts in a row?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on December 28, 2013, 11:38:49 AM
Quote from: 1 on December 28, 2013, 11:22:15 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 28, 2013, 11:11:54 AM
don't give a pedestrian the right of way

What if it looks like the pedestrian wants to cross (at least to the camera), but he says no (perhaps waiting for something else)?
Foot in crosswalk = has right-of-way. Standing on the sidewalk = no.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NJRoadfan on December 28, 2013, 12:20:37 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 28, 2013, 11:38:49 AM
Foot in crosswalk = has right-of-way. Standing on the sidewalk = no.

This of course is dependent on district/state law. My home state of NJ requires one stops for pedestrians in a crosswalk. Is this the case in MD or VA?

http://www.nj.gov/oag/hts/pedestrian.html
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 29, 2013, 02:37:03 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on December 28, 2013, 12:20:37 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 28, 2013, 11:38:49 AM
Foot in crosswalk = has right-of-way. Standing on the sidewalk = no.

This of course is dependent on district/state law. My home state of NJ requires one stops for pedestrians in a crosswalk. Is this the case in MD or VA?

http://www.nj.gov/oag/hts/pedestrian.html

Code of Virginia § 46.2-924 (http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-924) says, in part [with emphasis added]:

QuoteA. The driver of any vehicle on a highway shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian crossing such highway:

1. At any clearly marked crosswalk, whether at mid-block or at the end of any block;

2. At any regular pedestrian crossing included in the prolongation of the lateral boundary lines of the adjacent sidewalk at the end of a block;

3. At any intersection when the driver is approaching on a highway or street where the legal maximum speed does not exceed 35 miles per hour.

Annotated Code of Maryland says stop in Transportation Article §21—502 (http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutesText.aspx?article=gtr&section=21-502&ext=html&session=2014RS&tab=subject5) [also with emphasis added]:

Quote§21—502. 

(a)   
  (1)   This subsection does not apply where:
    (i)   A pedestrian tunnel or overhead pedestrian crossing is provided, as described in § 21-503(b) of this subtitle; or
    (ii)   A traffic control signal is in operation.

  (2)   The driver of a vehicle shall come to a stop when a pedestrian crossing the roadway in a crosswalk is:
    (i)   On the half of the roadway on which the vehicle is traveling; or
    (ii)   Approaching from an adjacent lane on the other half of the roadway.

(b)   A pedestrian may not suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close that it is impossible for the driver to yield.

(c)   If, at a marked crosswalk or at an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection, a vehicle is stopped to let a pedestrian cross the roadway, the driver of any other vehicle approaching from the rear may not overtake and pass the stopped vehicle.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 29, 2013, 02:41:42 PM
Washington Post: A month later, no clues in Ronald Kirby's murder (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/a-month-later-no-clues-in-ronald-kirbys-slaying/2013/12/28/57753286-668e-11e3-a0b9-249bbb34602c_story.html)

QuoteAnne Haynes has been thinking about going solo on the trip she and her husband planned to take to Antarctica in January. The books she's been reading on grief say it's good to get away.

QuoteShe's been reading poetry, too, a reminder of the love poems she and Ronald Kirby read to each other early in their romance. She wants to hold on to everything about him – she even hopes police eventually will be able to return the clothes, glasses and shoes he wore the day he was killed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 19, 2014, 10:00:12 AM
Washington Post:  D.C. area planners adopt transportation priorities that focus on fixing what's broken (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/dc-area-planners-adopt-transportation-priorities-that-focus-on-fixing-whats-broken/2014/01/17/6eff0018-7d4e-11e3-93c1-0e888170b723_story.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 29, 2014, 11:40:01 PM
Washington Post:  D.C. area's longer-than-average commutes could be taking a greater toll on women (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/research-shows-women-have-longer-commutes-more-stress-than-men/2014/01/29/f4d198be-76f9-11e3-b1c5-739e63e9c9a7_story.html)

QuoteAdeyinka Ogunlegan remembers sitting at a red light on Georgia Avenue when the text-message alert came through. Her main route home to Laurel was blocked because of emergency utility repairs.

QuoteIn an instant, her run-of-the-mill commute, a drive she does daily, generally without incident, turned into a logistical nightmare.

QuoteHer 4-year-old son was waiting to be picked up at preschool and her daughter, now 3, from the babysitter's. The clock was ticking, traffic was crawling, and she still had at least 20 miles to go. She knew instinctively that a trip that normally takes her about an hour would take far more time unless she came up with a plan.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on January 29, 2014, 11:56:17 PM
Men don't have kids.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 07, 2014, 06:22:17 PM
The Washington Post explores why the Nationals' curly "W" logo was greened-out on BGSs in DC:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/02/07/what-happened-to-the-curly-w-on-d-c-freeway-signs/

Quote.... So what happened was, DDOT conducted a survey of attendees at Nationals Park about the strength of the Curly W as a traffic helper. The DDOT survey "did not provide a conclusive result on the effectiveness of the use of the logos on traffic signs,"  according to the FHWA.

So the federal agency did a follow-up "human factors evaluation,"  which concluded that "the addition of a graphic logo to the word legend on a sign took observers longer to process, requiring longer glance times to the signs containing the graphic logos.

"These longer glances did not necessarily allow for an unfamiliar user to comprehend the meaning of the graphic logo,"  the agency went on, in its message to DDOT. "Further, for familiar drivers, the addition of the logo did not enhance comprehension of the accompanying word legend. In fact, the logos evaluated generally had relatively low comprehension levels. The result was only a longer glance at the sign, but without the intended benefit of enhanced recognition of comprehension."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 07, 2014, 11:05:01 PM
WTOP Radio: Flyover bridge unveiled in Southeast D.C. (http://www.wtop.com/109/3558741/Flyover-bridge-unveiled-in-Southeast-DC)

QuoteWASHINGTON - A new flyover bridge on Interstate 695 was quietly unveiled by the District Department of Transportation on Friday in Southeast D.C.

QuoteThe new bridge provides a smooth connection between the eastbound Southeast Freeway and the outbound span of the 11th Street Bridge.

QuoteThe 11th Street Bridge Project, the District's largest road improvement project to date, is more than halfway complete. The new configuration sets the outbound side of the road in its final alignment on its approach toward the Anacostia River.

QuoteAdditionally, a new on-ramp from 8th Street SE, pictured right, will allow traffic from the Barracks Row to merge onto the new bridge in the coming weeks.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 08, 2014, 02:33:33 PM
Funny, we saw them striping that on Thursday night on our way home from the Caps game but I had no idea it was to open so soon. I guess I won't be driving on it for a while with the NHL entering the Olympic Break.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2014, 05:59:04 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 08, 2014, 02:33:33 PM
Funny, we saw them striping that on Thursday night on our way home from the Caps game but I had no idea it was to open so soon. I guess I won't be driving on it for a while with the NHL entering the Olympic Break.

Drove it last night (Friday).  Might be the smoothest section of elevated road I have ever driven in the District of Columbia.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 08, 2014, 11:10:27 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2014, 05:59:04 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 08, 2014, 02:33:33 PM
Funny, we saw them striping that on Thursday night on our way home from the Caps game but I had no idea it was to open so soon. I guess I won't be driving on it for a while with the NHL entering the Olympic Break.

Drove it last night (Friday).  Might be the smoothest section of elevated road I have ever driven in the District of Columbia.

Heh. We'll see if that's still true when the NHL schedule resumes!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on February 13, 2014, 08:17:00 AM
Good to have a new ramp.  Bad that the signage, pictured at the link, doesn't use control cities.

I-295 South/ Alexandria* / Richmond

DC 295 North to US 50 / Baltimore / Annapolis


* I would remove the reference to 95/495 since you can reach 95/495 by taking DC 295 (Greenbelt) or by taking US 50 (New Carrolton).  Of course, if you want Virginia the best way of getting there at this point is by southbound I-295.  If DDOT can replace the rest of the signs along I-295, I would prefer National Harbor as a control city over Alexandria, since I-295 goes directly there and National Harbor has become a destination in recent years.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on February 14, 2014, 04:39:06 PM
Quote* I would remove the reference to 95/495 since you can reach 95/495 by taking DC 295 (Greenbelt) or by taking US 50 (New Carrolton).

I'd hazard a bet the 95/495 signage is intended for trucks....the preference being for trucks to take I-295 South to the Beltway instead of DC 295 (poor geometry) to B-W Pkwy (trucks illegal) or US 50 (nasty ramps at 50/Kenilworth).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 14, 2014, 06:24:08 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 14, 2014, 04:39:06 PM
Quote* I would remove the reference to 95/495 since you can reach 95/495 by taking DC 295 (Greenbelt) or by taking US 50 (New Carrolton).

I'd hazard a bet the 95/495 signage is intended for trucks....the preference being for trucks to take I-295 South to the Beltway instead of DC 295 (poor geometry) to B-W Pkwy (trucks illegal) or US 50 (nasty ramps at 50/Kenilworth).

I second. 

South of the interchange, I-295 is functionally classified as a freeway.  D.C. 295 is for a short distance to the north as well.  But north of East Capitol Street, the design is pretty clearly that of an expressway - and while the ramps between Md. 201 and U.S. 50 are legal for truck traffic, they are unchanged since their design by Maryland SRC in the 1950's, and it shows.  The movement from westbound 50 to southbound 201 is a sharp cloverleaf and the movement from northbound 201 to eastbound 50 is narrow with a difficult merge at the end of the ramp.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on February 21, 2014, 12:38:41 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 14, 2014, 06:24:08 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 14, 2014, 04:39:06 PM
Quote* I would remove the reference to 95/495 since you can reach 95/495 by taking DC 295 (Greenbelt) or by taking US 50 (New Carrolton).

I'd hazard a bet the 95/495 signage is intended for trucks....the preference being for trucks to take I-295 South to the Beltway instead of DC 295 (poor geometry) to B-W Pkwy (trucks illegal) or US 50 (nasty ramps at 50/Kenilworth).

I second. 

South of the interchange, I-295 is functionally classified as a freeway.  D.C. 295 is for a short distance to the north as well.  But north of East Capitol Street, the design is pretty clearly that of an expressway - and while the ramps between Md. 201 and U.S. 50 are legal for truck traffic, they are unchanged since their design by Maryland SRC in the 1950's, and it shows.  The movement from westbound 50 to southbound 201 is a sharp cloverleaf and the movement from northbound 201 to eastbound 50 is narrow with a difficult merge at the end of the ramp.

So trucks heading to Annapolis or Baltimore from this point will go south on 295 and then reach the Beltway?

I believe that most would use the shortest legal routing:

I-695 to DC 295 north to US 50 for Annapolis

I-695 to DC 295 north to US 50 to I-95 for Baltimore, but some may opt for Kenilworth Avenue instead.

Of course, for those who don't know their way around, they may just follow the signs to I-95 and go the long way by way of National Harbor.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 22, 2014, 11:08:06 PM
Washington Post: Potholes infest D.C. region as relentless winter chews up the roadways (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/potholes-infest-dc-region-area-as-relentless-winter-chews-up-the-roadways/2014/02/22/0627257a-9a36-11e3-b931-0204122c514b_story.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 24, 2014, 12:25:21 PM
Last night we drove over the new I-695 ramp CP mentions further up this page on our way home from the AHL hockey game at Verizon Center. I agree with him, easily the smoothest section of elevated road I've driven in DC, but it's funny how they didn't smooth out the bumps between that new segment and the bridge itself. Perhaps they will do that when the remaining ramps open–I didn't get to look around much because I was focused on the other cars on the road, but Ms1995hoo said there appeared to be an entrance on the right that was still blocked off.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on February 24, 2014, 05:14:05 PM
Quotebut Ms1995hoo said there appeared to be an entrance on the right that was still blocked off.

Likely the entrance from 8th St SE, which I believe was planned to open up some weeks after the mainline.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 24, 2014, 05:25:45 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 24, 2014, 05:14:05 PM
Quotebut Ms1995hoo said there appeared to be an entrance on the right that was still blocked off.

Likely the entrance from 8th St SE, which I believe was planned to open up some weeks after the mainline.

That sounds right. The project calls that "Ramp E-2." It's supposed to open sometime in "early spring," according to a graphic on JDLand.com.

Do you happen to know whether the tunnel under Barney Circle that leads to the RFK Stadium Access Road will remain open once all the construction is done and the new at-grade boulevard segment is opened? There's a road connecting Barney Circle to the RFK Access Road, but it's never open, even when there's an event at the stadium (some people use it anyway). I suppose the theory is that the new connection from the 11th Street Bridge to northbound DC-295 would make it easier for people to use Benning Road to the stadium (which is what the signs tell traffic on 295 to do), and I'm sure DC would LOVE to route the stadium traffic past the speed camera on Benning Road near the Langston driving range, but I doubt most people who currently park in Lot 8 will have any interest in doing that and would instead find ways to approach the stadium from the southwest via some combination of Potomac Avenue and Independence Avenue.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 24, 2014, 06:28:24 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 24, 2014, 12:25:21 PM
I didn't get to look around much because I was focused on the other cars on the road, but Ms1995hoo said there appeared to be an entrance on the right that was still blocked off.

She's correct.  That ramp comes up from the intersection of 8th Street and Virginia Avenue, S.E., and existed before this part of I-695 was reconstructed.  Have not looked at it from 8th Street, S.E. recently to see if anything is going on there.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 24, 2014, 06:34:31 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 21, 2014, 12:38:41 PM
So trucks heading to Annapolis or Baltimore from this point will go south on 295 and then reach the Beltway?

I believe that most would use the shortest legal routing:

I-695 to DC 295 north to US 50 for Annapolis

I-695 to DC 295 north to US 50 to I-95 for Baltimore, but some may opt for Kenilworth Avenue instead.

All correct.  I think the signage was directed at drivers from out-of-town, which are probably better off running up the extra miles to use I-295 to reach the Capital Beltway.  Drivers from the area know the routes you enumerated above, and they are legal for all commercial vehicles to use.

Quote from: mrsman on February 21, 2014, 12:38:41 PM
Of course, for those who don't know their way around, they may just follow the signs to I-95 and go the long way by way of National Harbor.

I still see (what I believe to be) a fair number of drivers with out-dated GPS units on eastbound I-695 who probably intended to follow the I-95 routing northbound around the south and east parts of the Capital Beltway but ended up on I-395 in Springfield instead of I-95. Those people are definitely better-off heading south on I-295, even though it adds more miles to their journey. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on February 24, 2014, 07:40:50 PM
QuoteDo you happen to know whether the tunnel under Barney Circle that leads to the RFK Stadium Access Road will remain open once all the construction is done and the new at-grade boulevard segment is opened?

Given that DDOT plans to rebuild Barney Circle as an at-grade circle as part of the completion of Southeastern Blvd (http://www.anacostiawaterfront.org/awi-transportation-projects/barney-circle-southeast-boulevard/), I'd say "no".

The design concepts for Barney Circle include access to that road from the circle.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 25, 2014, 10:21:09 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 24, 2014, 07:40:50 PM
QuoteDo you happen to know whether the tunnel under Barney Circle that leads to the RFK Stadium Access Road will remain open once all the construction is done and the new at-grade boulevard segment is opened?

Given that DDOT plans to rebuild Barney Circle as an at-grade circle as part of the completion of Southeastern Blvd (http://www.anacostiawaterfront.org/awi-transportation-projects/barney-circle-southeast-boulevard/), I'd say "no".

The design concepts for Barney Circle include access to that road from the circle.


Thanks. For some reason, most reports I've seen have been silent about that issue, perhaps reflecting what I'd consider unwarranted optimism about the proposal to build a new soccer stadium in Buzzard Point near Nationals Park.

I'm avoiding Google Maps these days because I've found it to be unbearably slow recently, but the Bing Maps overhead view of Barney Circle gives a pretty good image of how it wouldn't be difficult at all to connect the RFK road to Pennsylvania Avenue via something better than the narrow street currently there, provided they reconfigured that triangular sidewalk/pedestrian path on the right side of the image: http://binged.it/1hOLJlm
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 25, 2014, 10:34:03 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 24, 2014, 06:34:31 PM
....

Quote from: mrsman on February 21, 2014, 12:38:41 PM
Of course, for those who don't know their way around, they may just follow the signs to I-95 and go the long way by way of National Harbor.

I still see (what I believe to be) a fair number of drivers with out-dated GPS units on eastbound I-695 who probably intended to follow the I-95 routing northbound around the south and east parts of the Capital Beltway but ended up on I-395 in Springfield instead of I-95. Those people are definitely better-off heading south on I-295, even though it adds more miles to their journey. 

I think part of what we see is a combination of drivers with outdated sat-navs and drivers who don't pay attention to road signs. As you know I live not far from the Springfield Interchange, and pretty much every time I'm waiting at the light to turn left from northbound Van Dorn onto the Beltway there will be multiple drivers coming off the Beltway and making U-turns to get back on. I presume, although I do not know for sure, that most of these are people who messed up and took the wrong lane somewhere in Springfield and wound up going in a direction other than they intended. I remember back in 1999 shortly before the reconstruction began, a Washington Post article talked about how the rebuilt interchange would be "unforgiving" in that it offers no real opportunity to correct your mistake if you find yourself going the wrong way–you have to continue on past it to the next interchange and then work your way back for another shot. It's an apt description. So many people ignore highway signs that tell you which lane to use that it's no surprise, when you consider both the volume of traffic and DC-area drivers' general reluctance to let anyone over at the last minute, that people wind up going the wrong way. But I do not understand why, faced with multiple BGSs telling you to keep left for Interstate 95, some people persist in ignoring the signs because a sat-nav is saying to keep right.

Of course, why you'd end up going all the way into DC instead of turning around sooner is unclear to me!

I remember when I was a kid my parents used to get AAA Triptiks for some of our family vacations. The map of the Beltway had an arrow pointing at the Springfield Interchange with an admonition in all capital letters that read, "Heed signing for proper lanes to make change of direction at this interchange." I'd suggest that admonition is all the more compelling now than it was back then.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 25, 2014, 02:11:46 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 25, 2014, 10:34:03 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 24, 2014, 06:34:31 PM
....

Quote from: mrsman on February 21, 2014, 12:38:41 PM
Of course, for those who don't know their way around, they may just follow the signs to I-95 and go the long way by way of National Harbor.

I still see (what I believe to be) a fair number of drivers with out-dated GPS units on eastbound I-695 who probably intended to follow the I-95 routing northbound around the south and east parts of the Capital Beltway but ended up on I-395 in Springfield instead of I-95. Those people are definitely better-off heading south on I-295, even though it adds more miles to their journey. 

I think part of what we see is a combination of drivers with outdated sat-navs and drivers who don't pay attention to road signs. As you know I live not far from the Springfield Interchange, and pretty much every time I'm waiting at the light to turn left from northbound Van Dorn onto the Beltway there will be multiple drivers coming off the Beltway and making U-turns to get back on. I presume, although I do not know for sure, that most of these are people who messed up and took the wrong lane somewhere in Springfield and wound up going in a direction other than they intended.

I have seen it there, and at the Eisenhower Avenue Connector as well. Not that the confusion is always related to the Springfield Interchange, either.  We were once putting out road tubes (a nasty and sometimes dangerous job) on the Eisenhower Avenue Connector itself when some ladies in a car with Pennsylvania or New Jersey tags stopped and wanted to know how much further they had to go to get to the Johns Hopkins Medical Campus (I don't recall if it was the "main" Hopkins hospital complex on North Wolfe Street or Hopkins Bayview next to I-895). 

I politely explained that they had passed the Hopkins hospitals in Baltimore City by about 45 miles and that they were in Virginia (they were somewhat taken aback to be in Virginia).  I patiently explained how to get them back to Baltimore, even telling them how to get to the Hopkins complex (must have been the main one, since it's more difficult to reach that one from I-95 than Bayview).

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 25, 2014, 10:34:03 AM
I remember back in 1999 shortly before the reconstruction began, a Washington Post article talked about how the rebuilt interchange would be "unforgiving" in that it offers no real opportunity to correct your mistake if you find yourself going the wrong way–you have to continue on past it to the next interchange and then work your way back for another shot. It's an apt description. So many people ignore highway signs that tell you which lane to use that it's no surprise, when you consider both the volume of traffic and DC-area drivers' general reluctance to let anyone over at the last minute, that people wind up going the wrong way. But I do not understand why, faced with multiple BGSs telling you to keep left for Interstate 95, some people persist in ignoring the signs because a sat-nav is saying to keep right.

I think the signs for I-95 are much improved in and through Springfield from what they were before the reconstruction.  And in both directions, the "natural" path on I-95 is now "straight" (or actually left), as it should be - not a TOTSO. 

[rant]

Even though GPS is getting more common, I think the driving tests need to prove to the satisfaction of the examiner that a prospective driver knows how to read highway signs - and the on-road test should include a drive on a real freeway, with the new driver being required to correctly read the signs and navigate somewhere. 

[/rant]


Quote from: 1995hoo on February 25, 2014, 10:34:03 AM
Of course, why you'd end up going all the way into DC instead of turning around sooner is unclear to me!

I remember when I was a kid my parents used to get AAA Triptiks for some of our family vacations. The map of the Beltway had an arrow pointing at the Springfield Interchange with an admonition in all capital letters that read, "Heed signing for proper lanes to make change of direction at this interchange." I'd suggest that admonition is all the more compelling now than it was back then.

Northbound drivers (mistakenly) on I-395 observe that they are still on a nice big freeway, and assume that the freeway will take them where they need to go.  They find out differently when they get to the north end of I-395, at 3rd Street and New York Avenue, N.W. (I've seen more than a few very confused drivers there as well).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 04, 2014, 09:59:10 AM
Washington Post: Washington region's fabled traffic jams eased a little last year (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/washington-regions-fabled-traffic-jams-eased-last-year/2014/03/03/9c6af368-a0b7-11e3-9ba6-800d1192d08b_story.html)

QuoteWashington, a city that has found no glory in its sports teams of late and has been tarnished by lawmakers seen as incapable of making laws, now faces another ignominy. No longer can it claim to be the most traffic-congested place in the nation.

QuoteNot even close. And you can blame it on Congress.

QuoteWith the nation's economy on the rise, traffic congestion picked up last year in all but one of the 10 most congested metropolitan regions: Washington.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 05, 2014, 09:23:48 AM
Washington Post: D.C.mayor says Secret Service street closures paralyzing downtown traffic (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/district-mayor-says-secret-service-street-closures-paralyzing-downtown-traffic/2014/03/04/ac058582-a3c2-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html)

QuoteD.C. Mayor Vincent C. Gray is demanding that the Secret Service change protocols for visiting dignitaries to alleviate what he says led to "significant portions of downtown Washington being paralyzed by traffic"  in the past five days.

QuoteFrom the mayor of a city accustomed to sharing living space with the president and maneuvering around frequent motorcades, the letter on Tuesday was stern in tone, calling prolonged road closures near the White House and the Walter E. Washington Convention Center a show of disrespect to D.C. residents. Police said motorists were stuck in traffic jams of up to two hours as they tried to traverse downtown streets.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 06, 2014, 04:03:21 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 29, 2013, 02:41:42 PM
Washington Post: A month later, no clues in Ronald Kirby's murder (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/a-month-later-no-clues-in-ronald-kirbys-slaying/2013/12/28/57753286-668e-11e3-a0b9-249bbb34602c_story.html)

QuoteAnne Haynes has been thinking about going solo on the trip she and her husband planned to take to Antarctica in January. The books she's been reading on grief say it's good to get away.

QuoteShe's been reading poetry, too, a reminder of the love poems she and Ronald Kirby read to each other early in their romance. She wants to hold on to everything about him – she even hopes police eventually will be able to return the clothes, glasses and shoes he wore the day he was killed.

Could the City of Alexandria police be on to something regarding the murder of Ron Kirby?

Washington Post: Same gun may have been used in three Alexandria slayings, police say (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/police-schedule-news-conference-to-discuss-killing-of-alexandria-music-teacher/2014/03/06/a1a9f0a2-a53c-11e3-84d4-e59b1709222c_story.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 06, 2014, 11:40:17 PM
WTOP Radio: New flyover ramp connects 11th Street Bridge and SE-SW Freeway (http://www.wtop.com/654/3575401/Starting-Friday-A-major-improvement-for-Md-commuters)

QuoteAfter enduring years of painful morning delays along D.C. 295 and Interstate 295, a new connection for inbound drivers is expected to open at the 11th Street Bridge.

QuoteThe District Department of Transportation says that construction crews will open a high-capacity flyover ramp that will connect the 11th Street Bridge to the westbound Southeast-Southwest Freeway early Friday.

QuoteOn Thursday night, all access to the inbound main span of the 11th Street Bridge will be blocked to tie the new ramp into the westbound Southeast-Southwest Freeway. All lanes are expected to be open in their final configuration in time for the Friday morning rush hours.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 07, 2014, 07:54:06 AM
I assume what they're doing is re-routing inbound traffic onto the ramp that outbound traffic had used for a year or so until a month ago. Big improvement, if so. I may take a detour to check it out today depending on the weather.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 07, 2014, 08:17:48 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 07, 2014, 07:54:06 AM
I assume what they're doing is re-routing inbound traffic onto the ramp that outbound traffic had used for a year or so until a month ago. Big improvement, if so. I may take a detour to check it out today depending on the weather.

Yes, I am about 99% certain that they are moving traffic off of that old and beaten-up flyover ramp.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 07, 2014, 12:30:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 07, 2014, 07:54:06 AM
I assume what they're doing is re-routing inbound traffic onto the ramp that outbound traffic had used for a year or so until a month ago. Big improvement, if so. I may take a detour to check it out today depending on the weather.

Drove it earlier today.  Three lanes instead of two. The deck of the flyover is a big improvement over the old one (and I have driven it many times in the opposite direction).

But between the end of the "main" 11th Street Bridge and the beginning of the flyover, there are one or two "humps" that seemed to take some drivers by surprise.  And the signage on the bridge approaching the flyover needs to be updated.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 07, 2014, 01:24:58 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 07, 2014, 12:30:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 07, 2014, 07:54:06 AM
I assume what they're doing is re-routing inbound traffic onto the ramp that outbound traffic had used for a year or so until a month ago. Big improvement, if so. I may take a detour to check it out today depending on the weather.

Drove it earlier today.  Three lanes instead of two. The deck of the flyover is a big improvement over the old one (and I have driven it many times in the opposite direction).

But between the end of the "main" 11th Street Bridge and the beginning of the flyover, there are one or two "humps" that seemed to take some drivers by surprise.  And the signage on the bridge approaching the flyover needs to be updated.

Thanks. I'm not going to make it over there today after all due to other things that came up. I was going to go there on the way to Alexandria this morning but didn't have time. I assume the "humps" you describe may be similar to a couple of annoying dips and bumps in the pavement that we kept encountering when the stretch in question was being used as the outbound lanes. It was rather annoying to go from the nice new ramp to a ratty old segment back to a nice new bridge.

Have you used the "local bridge" recently? I have not, and what I'm curious about is whether the street pattern on the north end of that bridge has been finished yet. The last time I used it going north (towards downtown), at the end of the bridge you had to make a right turn and then two left turns, which put you onto M Street, before making a right to go on up 11th. It made more sense simply to use the right-side ramp from the "highway bridge" because you encountered fewer lights. I'm interested in seeing whether, once 11th Street is finished, it would be easier and faster to exit I- or DC-295 onto the "local bridge" and go straight through on there. If so, and if people can be convinced to go that way, it would eliminate some of the weaving that goes on over the inbound "highway bridge," although of course I recognize some people will be loath to break their long-entrenched habits (similar to how some people STILL aren't using the ramps from southbound Telegraph Road to Kings Highway and Huntington Avenue just south of Alexandria, even though they've been open for several years now–these people go up to the light at the Bestway Latin American supermarket and hang a U-turn to reach Kings or Huntington).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 10, 2014, 12:34:45 AM
Dr. Gridlock in the Washington Post: Metro and D.C. transportation officials need to show they've made the most of 16th Street (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/metro-and-dc-transportation-officials-need-to-show-theyve-made-the-most-of-16th-street/2014/03/07/659ca306-a542-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: andrewkbrown on March 10, 2014, 09:17:48 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 07, 2014, 12:30:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 07, 2014, 07:54:06 AM
I assume what they're doing is re-routing inbound traffic onto the ramp that outbound traffic had used for a year or so until a month ago. Big improvement, if so. I may take a detour to check it out today depending on the weather.

Drove it earlier today.  Three lanes instead of two. The deck of the flyover is a big improvement over the old one (and I have driven it many times in the opposite direction).

But between the end of the "main" 11th Street Bridge and the beginning of the flyover, there are one or two "humps" that seemed to take some drivers by surprise.  And the signage on the bridge approaching the flyover needs to be updated.

The humps. Quite the ride when done in the back of a fire engine.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 11, 2014, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: andrewkbrown on March 10, 2014, 09:17:48 PM
The humps. Quite the ride when done in the back of a fire engine.

Never had the pleasure - but I presume that DCFD engines ride pretty hard?

At least it is not like the "good old days" (IMO not so good) when firefighters rode on the back step of engines. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: andrewkbrown on March 11, 2014, 11:35:33 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 11, 2014, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: andrewkbrown on March 10, 2014, 09:17:48 PM
The humps. Quite the ride when done in the back of a fire engine.

Never had the pleasure - but I presume that DCFD engines ride pretty hard?

At least it is not like the "good old days" (IMO not so good) when firefighters rode on the back step of engines. 

Most engines do ride hard, some more so than others.
There's a dip in the pavement on Constitution Ave. NW between 6th and 7th St. NW, that when we respond westbound we have to slow up as we drive over it. All companies in the vicinity know about it, and many firefighters have been thrown upwards or even hit their heads on the cab roof when the apparatus driver forgets to slow up and hits the dip at fire response speed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 13, 2014, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: andrewkbrown on March 11, 2014, 11:35:33 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 11, 2014, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: andrewkbrown on March 10, 2014, 09:17:48 PM
The humps. Quite the ride when done in the back of a fire engine.

Never had the pleasure - but I presume that DCFD engines ride pretty hard?

At least it is not like the "good old days" (IMO not so good) when firefighters rode on the back step of engines. 

Most engines do ride hard, some more so than others.
There's a dip in the pavement on Constitution Ave. NW between 6th and 7th St. NW, that when we respond westbound we have to slow up as we drive over it. All companies in the vicinity know about it, and many firefighters have been thrown upwards or even hit their heads on the cab roof when the apparatus driver forgets to slow up and hits the dip at fire response speed.

I know exactly where you are talking about.  Always take it rather slow past there.  But I could see that being a problem for the Fire Department if the firefighter behind the wheel happens to be on temporary duty at your fire house and not familiar with some of the humps and dips in the surrounding streets.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 18, 2014, 11:55:59 AM
Putting a Price on D.C.'s Worst Commute:  See the Atlantic Cities article that I posted to the Virginia forum (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=294.msg286352#msg286352).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on April 08, 2014, 05:50:07 PM
Ramp E-2 at the 11th Street Bridge project was to open this afternoon (I didn't have time to go check it out). This is the ramp leading from 8th Street SE onto outbound I-695 over the "highway bridge."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 09, 2014, 09:11:15 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 08, 2014, 05:50:07 PM
Ramp E-2 at the 11th Street Bridge project was to open this afternoon (I didn't have time to go check it out). This is the ramp leading from 8th Street SE onto outbound I-695 over the "highway bridge."

Will be driving by there in a little while tonight.  Report back later.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Henry on April 10, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
I take it that the current SE Freeway will definitely be a thing of the past, now that I-695 has been rerouted over the 11th Street Bridge?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on April 10, 2014, 05:02:00 PM
Quote from: Henry on April 10, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
I take it that the current SE Freeway will definitely be a thing of the past, now that I-695 has been rerouted over the 11th Street Bridge?

East of the 11th Street Bridge, yes. Between there and Barney Circle (Pennsylvania Avenue on the northwest side of the river) it's to be converted into "Southeast Boulevard" (I wish they'd come up with a better name, but whatever). Don't know the timetable for that to open. It involves filling the area and raising the road at least partially out of the trench-like cut it used before.

West of the bridge, it remains essentially as it was other than some changes related to the new ramps associated with the bridge project.

The big thing is that before, the ramps to the bridge straddled the highway because of how the road plunged down towards Barney Circle and the tunnel to RFK. Going to or from the bridge was like using an exit or entrance ramp. Now the ramps to and from the bridge are the thru movement in the middle and the ramps that will connect to Southeast Boulevard (at 11th Street SE) will be off to either side ("will" because they aren't open yet).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 11, 2014, 09:25:28 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 10, 2014, 05:02:00 PM
Quote from: Henry on April 10, 2014, 04:32:51 PM
I take it that the current SE Freeway will definitely be a thing of the past, now that I-695 has been rerouted over the 11th Street Bridge?

East of the 11th Street Bridge, yes. Between there and Barney Circle (Pennsylvania Avenue on the northwest side of the river) it's to be converted into "Southeast Boulevard" (I wish they'd come up with a better name, but whatever). Don't know the timetable for that to open. It involves filling the area and raising the road at least partially out of the trench-like cut it used before.

Problem is that none of that will really lead to much change - and in particular access to the Anacostia River riverfront - because of the presence of a CSX Transportation freight line, which carries plenty of railroad traffic 24/7.

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 10, 2014, 05:02:00 PM
West of the bridge, it remains essentially as it was other than some changes related to the new ramps associated with the bridge project.

The big thing is that before, the ramps to the bridge straddled the highway because of how the road plunged down towards Barney Circle and the tunnel to RFK. Going to or from the bridge was like using an exit or entrance ramp. Now the ramps to and from the bridge are the thru movement in the middle and the ramps that will connect to Southeast Boulevard (at 11th Street SE) will be off to either side ("will" because they aren't open yet).

Still not really clear what is going to happen there.  They are not getting rid of the railroad line (and indeed, it is likely to see even more train traffic when the Virginia Avenue Tunnel is rebuilt in the coming years from a single-track bottleneck to a wider and taller crossing, able to handle double-stack container trains).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Doctor Whom on April 16, 2014, 07:41:16 AM
D.C. considers adding carpool, toll lanes to part of the 14th Street bridge (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/dc-considers-adding-carpool-toll-lanes-to-part-of-the-14th-street-bridge/2014/04/15/8c0d468a-c4cd-11e3-bcec-b71ee10e9bc3_story.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 17, 2014, 01:20:52 PM
Quote from: Doctor Whom on April 16, 2014, 07:41:16 AM
D.C. considers adding carpool, toll lanes to part of the 14th Street bridge (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/dc-considers-adding-carpool-toll-lanes-to-part-of-the-14th-street-bridge/2014/04/15/8c0d468a-c4cd-11e3-bcec-b71ee10e9bc3_story.html)

Good news? 

Maybe - if the I-395 HOV/Toll lanes ran all the way up to the Virginia shoreline of the 14th Street Bridge. But for now, they do not.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on April 17, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 17, 2014, 01:20:52 PM
Quote from: Doctor Whom on April 16, 2014, 07:41:16 AM
D.C. considers adding carpool, toll lanes to part of the 14th Street bridge (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/dc-considers-adding-carpool-toll-lanes-to-part-of-the-14th-street-bridge/2014/04/15/8c0d468a-c4cd-11e3-bcec-b71ee10e9bc3_story.html)

Good news? 

Maybe - if the I-395 HOV/Toll lanes ran all the way up to the Virginia shoreline of the 14th Street Bridge. But for now, they do not.

Well, the HOV lanes do, or would if VDOT would restore the HOV restrictions on the slip ramp near the Pentagon from the I-395 main lanes to the northbound HOV restriction.  Making that ramp available to all traffic helps mask the inadequacies of the northbound main lanes on the 14th Street, but those issues could be fixed, especially if D.C. would use toll revenue to help pay for the upgrades (ha ha).

If D.C. wants to put the squeeze on Arlington County to drop its opposition to a continuous HOT facility in the I-395 median, fine with me.

Even if not, Transurban might be a logical candidate to manage D.C.'s facility, using some of its infrastructure for and experience with the 495 express lanes.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2014, 11:06:39 AM
Quote from: oscar on April 17, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
Well, the HOV lanes do, or would if VDOT would restore the HOV restrictions on the slip ramp near the Pentagon from the I-395 main lanes to the northbound HOV restriction.  Making that ramp available to all traffic helps mask the inadequacies of the northbound main lanes on the 14th Street, but those issues could be fixed, especially if D.C. would use toll revenue to help pay for the upgrades (ha ha).

Agreed.  And returning it to a restricted lane (HOV-3 or pay a toll) would probably increase vehicle throughput!

Quote from: oscar on April 17, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
If D.C. wants to put the squeeze on Arlington County to drop its opposition to a continuous HOT facility in the I-395 median, fine with me.

The opposition in Arlington was mostly ginned-up by one member of the Arlington County Board, who has now resigned from that body.

If D.C. were to formally and on-the-record say to Arlington's elected officials that D.C. wants the HOV/toll facility to extend through Alexandria and Arlington County up to the Potomac River, then I think Arlington would have to give it some very serious consideration.

Quote from: oscar on April 17, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
Even if not, Transurban might be a logical candidate to manage D.C.'s facility, using some of its infrastructure for and experience with the 495 express lanes.

I can think of two entities that could do it - Transurban being (probably) the most-logical, or if D.C. wanted to look the other way (and if it were legal - not sure if it is), MdTA.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on April 18, 2014, 12:21:22 PM
Wasn't Arlington's opposition mostly because they didn't want the merge from the HOT lanes back to the general lanes in their area?  That wouldn't be a factor if they extended into DC.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2014, 01:35:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 18, 2014, 12:21:22 PM
Wasn't Arlington's opposition mostly because they didn't want the merge from the HOT lanes back to the general lanes in their area?  That wouldn't be a factor if they extended into DC.

It was anti-auto/anti-highway/anti-mobility ideology above all.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on April 18, 2014, 01:35:18 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2014, 11:06:39 AM
Quote from: oscar on April 17, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
Well, the HOV lanes do, or would if VDOT would restore the HOV restrictions on the slip ramp near the Pentagon from the I-395 main lanes to the northbound HOV restriction.  Making that ramp available to all traffic helps mask the inadequacies of the northbound main lanes on the 14th Street, but those issues could be fixed, especially if D.C. would use toll revenue to help pay for the upgrades (ha ha).

Agreed.  And returning it to a restricted lane (HOV-3 or pay a toll) would probably increase vehicle throughput!

Quote from: oscar on April 17, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
If D.C. wants to put the squeeze on Arlington County to drop its opposition to a continuous HOT facility in the I-395 median, fine with me.

The opposition in Arlington was mostly ginned-up by one member of the Arlington County Board, who has now resigned from that body.

If D.C. were to formally and on-the-record say to Arlington's elected officials that D.C. wants the HOV/toll facility to extend through Alexandria and Arlington County up to the Potomac River, then I think Arlington would have to give it some very serious consideration.

Quote from: oscar on April 17, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
Even if not, Transurban might be a logical candidate to manage D.C.'s facility, using some of its infrastructure for and experience with the 495 express lanes.

I can think of two entities that could do it - Transurban being (probably) the most-logical, or if D.C. wanted to look the other way (and if it were legal - not sure if it is), MdTA.

This is nice.  If I understand what you are saying, if DC wanted a HOT lane on the 14th Street approach, Arlington would be all-but-forced into relenting on their opposition to HOT lanes and there would be a HOT facility from Prince William to DC that would be free for carpoolers and toll for others in the dominant direction.

If DC can get a cut of Transurban's money for allowing the toll facility, I'm sure they would be game.  Look at how eagerly they hog up speed camera revenue.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 18, 2014, 02:13:42 PM
Quote from: mrsman on April 18, 2014, 01:35:18 PM
This is nice.  If I understand what you are saying, if DC wanted a HOT lane on the 14th Street approach, Arlington would be all-but-forced into relenting on their opposition to HOT lanes and there would be a HOT facility from Prince William to DC that would be free for carpoolers and toll for others in the dominant direction.

If DC can get a cut of Transurban's money for allowing the toll facility, I'm sure they would be game.  Look at how eagerly they hog up speed camera revenue.

I don't think Arlington County (or, for that matter, the City of Alexandria) can be forced into agreement with D.C. on the need to flip the I-395 HOV lanes to HOV/toll lanes.

And it is not ultimately up to either of those jurisdictions anyway, since I-395 belongs to VDOT, and was built with state and federal funding.  But both local governments have the right to raise objections, to VDOT, to the Federal Highway Administration and to the National Capital Region Transportation Planning Board.

Having said all of that, if the District of Columbia makes it loud and very clear that they want HOV/Toll lanes on the 14th Street Bridge (which is entirely D.C. jurisdiction), then one of the central arguments raised by Arlington County and its elected officials, "we are a central jurisdiction  and this is unfair to us" suddenly becomes much less credible. 

Now D.C. is doing this in its capacity as a state (even though it is in no way a state, for the purposes of this discussion, it is a state), and it would collect revenues from an HOV/Toll operation. But the local governments in Virginia would likely get no money from an extension of the HOV/Toll lanes to the Virginia shoreline of the 14th Street.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on April 18, 2014, 11:05:24 PM
QuoteAnd it is not ultimately up to either of those jurisdictions anyway, since I-395 belongs to VDOT, and was built with state and federal funding.  But both local governments have the right to raise objections, to VDOT, to the Federal Highway Administration and to the National Capital Region Transportation Planning Board.

But as you likely know, any significant changes to I-395 on the Virginia side would also have to go through the Northern Virginia Transportation Authority, on which both Alexandria and Arlington have voting members.

In conjunction with your other comments, it's quite plausible that we'll have a future scenario under which we have two segments of HO/T lane on I-395 (14th St Bridge and from Turkeycock south), but are HOV only (peak hours) in between.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 19, 2014, 05:49:37 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 18, 2014, 11:05:24 PM
QuoteAnd it is not ultimately up to either of those jurisdictions anyway, since I-395 belongs to VDOT, and was built with state and federal funding.  But both local governments have the right to raise objections, to VDOT, to the Federal Highway Administration and to the National Capital Region Transportation Planning Board.

But as you likely know, any significant changes to I-395 on the Virginia side would also have to go through the Northern Virginia Transportation Authority, on which both Alexandria and Arlington have voting members.

I do not believe NVTA has any authority over a "flip" of the I-395 HOV lanes to HOV/Toll lanes, unless the NVTA is spending its own money on the project.

The local entity with power here is the National Capital Region Transportation Planning Board (TPB), because such a change has to go into the regional Financially Constrained Long Range Plan (CLRP) and Transportation Improvement Program (TIP) and be analyzed as part of the next Air Quality Conformity Determination.

Both the City of Alexandria and Arlington County (and, for that matter, D.C.) have voting seats on the TPB, where this would have to be discussed before changing or adding to those documents.

Quote from: froggie on April 18, 2014, 11:05:24 PM
In conjunction with your other comments, it's quite plausible that we'll have a future scenario under which we have two segments of HO/T lane on I-395 (14th St Bridge and from Turkeycock south), but are HOV only (peak hours) in between.

Would VDOT go along with that sort of arrangement?  VDOT (and presumably the Commonwealth Transportation Board) would have to agree to a D.C. HOV/Toll treatment at the 14th Street Bridge because of the approaches on the Virginia side.

Maybe more to the point, would any private operator like Transurban be interested in such a short segment of HOV/Toll lanes?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on April 20, 2014, 01:59:13 PM
QuoteI do not believe NVTA has any authority over a "flip" of the I-395 HOV lanes to HOV/Toll lanes, unless the NVTA is spending its own money on the project.

If any state or federal money is involved, then yes, the NVTA is involved, per state law.  TPB and MWCOG are the MPO planning agencies for the region, true.  But at the Federal level.  NVTA has state-level authority to not just create a regional transportation plan for Northern Virginia, but also to implement projects.

QuoteWould VDOT go along with that sort of arrangement?  VDOT (and presumably the Commonwealth Transportation Board) would have to agree to a D.C. HOV/Toll treatment at the 14th Street Bridge because of the approaches on the Virginia side.

VDOT may not have much of a choice in the matter, given the past litigation by Arlington County for the 95/395 project.

QuoteMaybe more to the point, would any private operator like Transurban be interested in such a short segment of HOV/Toll lanes?

Who says it has to be a private operator?  There's nothing requiring DDOT to use a private entity to operate any such HO/T lanes.  They could just as easily do it themselves.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 20, 2014, 07:15:14 PM
Washington Post: Plans for HOT lanes on 14th Street Bridge and D.C. freeways still just warming up (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/plans-for-hot-lanes-on-14th-street-bridge-and-dc-freeways-still-just-warming-up/2014/04/19/d221f304-c4d3-11e3-b195-dd0c1174052c_story.html)

QuoteThe District's transportation planners envision sets of high-occupancy toll lanes stretching from Interstate 295 by the Maryland border to the 14th Street Bridge and the Virginia side of the Potomac River.

QuoteBut to see what they see, you'll need powerful binoculars.

QuoteIt's not that managed toll lanes are a bad idea for the extremely busy D.C. bridges and freeways. The concept is worth studying, as many other jurisdictions decided over the past several decades.

QuoteJust don't go underestimating the twists and turns between today's studies and the opening of HOT lanes.

QuoteThe District Department of Transportation is looking first at establishing high occupancy vehicle lanes on the Rochambeau Bridge, the middle span of the 14th Street Bridge complex; on the Southeast-Southwest Freeway, which is Interstate 395 and Interstate 695; and on the Anacostia Freeway, Interstate 295. The HOV lanes could eventually be converted to HOT lanes, in which carpoolers get a free ride but others have to pay tolls.

QuoteThe least difficult part of this program is the 14th Street Bridge segment. What the planners have in mind is designating the four lanes on the Rochambeau span as HOV3, open to vehicles with at least three people aboard. The HOV hours would match those on the Virginia side of I-395. These lanes would later be converted to HOT lanes.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: BrianP on April 25, 2014, 06:26:38 PM
I stumbled onto this DDOT historical photostream:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ddotphotos/4815694136/?rb=1
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ddotphotos/4815694322/in/photostream/?rb=1

There are some really good ones in there. :drool:
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: machpost on May 11, 2014, 01:00:34 PM
I don't know if anyone else has noticed it yet, but on northbound DC 295, the overhead sign indicating the exit for RFK Stadium has an Atlanta 1996 Olympics logo next to it. This was covered by a DC United logo for years, but it looks like it has fallen off or been removed. An interesting relic from the time RFK hosted Olympic soccer matches.

Here's a "before" picture of the sign, from this site:

(https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/district_of_columbia/dc-295_sb_exit_007b_01.jpg)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 16, 2014, 03:39:51 PM
Washington Post: U.S. Capitol's former top cop Terry Gainer says complex should expand, bar vehicles (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/us-capitols-former-top-cop-terry-gainer-says-complex-should-expand-bar-vehicles/2014/06/14/70ba8338-f34f-11e3-bf76-447a5df6411f_story.html)

QuoteNobody knows better than Terry Gainer how to make the U.S. Capitol secure. He's the only person to have served as both chief of the Capitol Police and sergeant at arms of the Senate.

QuoteSo it's worth heeding Gainer's views, now that he's free to speak out after retiring last month from the Senate job at the end of 47 distinguished years in law enforcement.

QuoteGainer says he thinks that the threat of terrorist vehicle bombs obliges Congress and the District to substantially expand the Capitol complex by gradually buying up surrounding blocks and banning traffic there.

QuoteBasically, he wants to create a spacious, pedestrian-only campus at the east end of the Mall. It would ban vehicles from more than a dozen square blocks where they're now allowed and extend from the Capitol north to Union Station and east to Second Street.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on June 17, 2014, 02:16:32 AM
Stupid idea on a number of levels.  For starters, Constitution is a busy commuter route and Independence is both commuter and a commercial street...one of the few that completely traverses east-west through the DC core and across the Anacostia).  Second, instead of a vibrant urban area, all this will do is create an even bigger dead zone surrounding the Capitol.  Third, they fail to heed Benjamin Franklin's words.

I'm sure there are a number of DC residents that have thought of other reasons...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 10, 2014, 01:16:44 AM
Washington Post: The lousy state of D.C.'s streets explained in 14 slides and two charts (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/mike-debonis/wp/2014/07/09/the-lousy-state-of-d-c-s-streets-explained-in-14-slides-and-two-charts/)

QuoteOn Tuesday, D.C. Council member Mary M. Cheh (D-Ward 3) invited city transportation officials to fill her in on the state of the city's streets. After a long, cold winter, complaints about the pocked condition of city roadways have risen even higher than usual, Cheh said, and the officials needed to provide answers.

QuoteHere are a few, courtesy of a District Department of Transportation slide show.

QuoteThe District has more than 4,000 lane-miles of roadway. (A lane-mile is a mile of pavement one lane wide; i.e., a mile-long stretch of four-lane street equals four lane-miles.) About half are eligible to be maintained with federal funds; the other half are not.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 10, 2014, 01:21:29 AM
Quote from: froggie on June 17, 2014, 02:16:32 AM[Emphasis added]

Stupid idea on a number of levels.  For starters, Constitution is a busy commuter route and Independence is both commuter and a commercial street...one of the few that completely traverses east-west through the DC core and across the Anacostia).  Second, instead of a vibrant urban area, all this will do is create an even bigger dead zone surrounding the Capitol.  Third, they fail to heed Benjamin Franklin's words.

I'm sure there are a number of DC residents that have thought of other reasons...

Meant to answer you before and forgot.

Your second point (which I bolded) is the really damning one. 

In addition to forcing motorists to take a different route (in and of itself, that's not a terrible deal), it would presumably force an assortment of bus routes (WMATA, D.C. Circulator, MTA Flyer and PRTC) to take longer and more-circuitous routes (that is a problem).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on July 13, 2014, 06:51:22 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 10, 2014, 01:21:29 AM
Quote from: froggie on June 17, 2014, 02:16:32 AM[Emphasis added]

Stupid idea on a number of levels.  For starters, Constitution is a busy commuter route and Independence is both commuter and a commercial street...one of the few that completely traverses east-west through the DC core and across the Anacostia).  Second, instead of a vibrant urban area, all this will do is create an even bigger dead zone surrounding the Capitol.  Third, they fail to heed Benjamin Franklin's words.

I'm sure there are a number of DC residents that have thought of other reasons...

Meant to answer you before and forgot.

Your second point (which I bolded) is the really damning one. 

In addition to forcing motorists to take a different route (in and of itself, that's not a terrible deal), it would presumably force an assortment of bus routes (WMATA, D.C. Circulator, MTA Flyer and PRTC) to take longer and more-circuitous routes (that is a problem).

I agree a closure of this magnitude would be terrible for traffic.  Although as roadgeeks, it would be fun to imagine how it would be implemented.

And for a road closure to "work" at some level, you have to do more than close off the streets right at the security boundary.  Look at the problems at the White House.

OK, so they have to close E Street and Penn Ave between 15th and 17th, but what do they do to make it overall better? Not enough.  IMO the clusterf**ks at Penn/I/21st and NY/13th/H could be eliminated if they did the following:

- All westbound NY Ave traffic is shunted onto I street.  NY Ave is one-way eastbound between H and I.

- All of H Street eastbound traffic (from the White House area) is shunted onto NY Ave at 13th, and all of the two-way H Street traffic from central Downtown is shunted onto NY Ave.  This is done in a manner similar to the way 17th and Connecticut don't cross around Farragut Square.  In other words, H and NY don't cross.  But the majority traffic (eastbound H from west of the White House) will connect with the more major route (NY Ave headed to Mt Vernon Square).

- Penn Ave is one-way eastbound between 21st and 19th.  This eliminates the conflict between westbound Penn and I street traffic.  (I.e. I Street traffic would get the entire green time that is not allocated to 21st, since there would be no merge with Penn Ave traffic.)  Then, all of Penn Ave eastbound traffic is shunted onto H Street.  Penn Ave is closed between 18th and 19th.  This allows for a much larger Edward R. Murrow Park.  The low traffic block of Penn between 18th and 17th would connect directly with H Street that is west of 18th.

So, ironically, it would improve traffic to close or narrow even more streets, so long as conflicts can be eliminated and through traffic should be shunted onto the one-way streets meant to carry the traffic and not be forced to make sharp turns at the closures right on 15th and 17th streets.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: MillTheRoadgeek on July 14, 2014, 01:11:03 PM
Just wondering, what is the farthest from D.C. that a street name (from there) goes?  :hmmm: My guess would be Central Avenue or Georgia Ave...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: TheOneKEA on July 14, 2014, 06:08:37 PM
Quote from: MillTheRoadgeek on July 14, 2014, 01:11:03 PM
Just wondering, what is the farthest from D.C. that a street name (from there) goes?  :hmmm: My guess would be Central Avenue or Georgia Ave...

New Hampshire Avenue also goes a long way out into Montgomery County, and the name ends at MD 97.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on July 14, 2014, 07:53:33 PM
Quote from: MillTheRoadgeek on July 14, 2014, 01:11:03 PM
Just wondering, what is the farthest from D.C. that a street name (from there) goes?  My guess would be Central Avenue or Georgia Ave...
Google shows Pennsylvania going out to the Patuxent, not that I necessarily believe that. Central almost seems like the opposite - a street from outside DC getting its name carried in a little way.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 14, 2014, 08:02:38 PM
QuoteGoogle shows Pennsylvania going out to the Patuxent, not that I necessarily believe that.

I do.  MD 4 and Pennsylvania Ave are synonymous in Prince George's County.  Much like MD 97 and Georgia Ave in Montgomery County (aside from a few blocks in Silver Spring).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 14, 2014, 11:31:06 PM
According to Google Maps, Central Avenue (Md. 214) changes names to Mayo Road where 214 intersects Shesley Road.  That's well beyond 29 miles from the Capitol Dome (using East Capitol Street & 1st Street as a substitute, since that is the closest road pavement that the public can drive on).

If we follow the 2012 Highway Location Reference, Md. 4 is only known as Pennsylvania Avenue as far out from D.C. as Md. 223, Woodyard Road.  That's just 11.7 miles.  Beyond that, the state calls it Stephanie Roper Highway as far as the Patuxent River Bridge, which is also the border between Prince George's County and Anne Arundel County.  If we assume that Pennsylvania Avenue goes all the way to the Patuxent River (as Google does), then the distance is 18.7 miles.  More about Stephanie Roper here (http://www.mdcrimevictims.org/).

Georgia Avenue out to its furthest distance from the Capitol is about 26.4 miles on Md. 97 north of (unincorporated) Sunshine, again, at the Patuxent River, this time the boundary between Montgomery County and Howard County. 

New Hampshire Avenue (Md. 650) also ends at Md. 97 ... in Sunshine.  It is also 26.4 miles from the Capitol, though following Md. 650 is less-direct than Md. 97, even though the end of Georgia Avenue is north of Sunshine.  Md. 650 continues to the north and west as Damascus Road, finally coming to an end at Md. 108 in Etchison.

So Central Avenue does appear to be the champ.   It helps that Central Avenue begins in D.C., crosses all of Prince George's County and nearly all of Anne Arundel County, finally giving up its name pretty close to the beaches of the Chesapeake Bay.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 15, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
I've never heard of MD 4 being referred to as the "Stephanie Roper Highway".  Sounds like a memorial name.  Common parlance is either Pennsylvania Ave (west of Upper Marlboro), or Route 4.  WTOP's Bob Marbourg has used both...often interchangeably in the same traffic report (even east of Woodyard Rd).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 15, 2014, 10:31:51 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 15, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
I've never heard of MD 4 being referred to as the "Stephanie Roper Highway".  Sounds like a memorial name.  Common parlance is either Pennsylvania Ave (west of Upper Marlboro), or Route 4.  WTOP's Bob Marbourg has used both...often interchangeably in the same traffic report (even east of Woodyard Rd).


I'd never heard it either, but the Roper name does show up on maps, including both Google and Bing (indeed I saw it on Google Maps prior to CP's post when I was pondering some of the prior comments in this thread). It's hardly unusual for a road to bear a formal name that isn't in general use by most of the public. Sixth Avenue in New York (purportedly "Avenue of the Americas," but not to 99% of New Yorkers) is a fine example of that sort of thing.

I know US-301 through Waldorf (and probably to either side of that area) is supposedly "Crain Highway," though I've never heard anyone use that name to refer to it either.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 15, 2014, 02:25:16 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 15, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
I've never heard of MD 4 being referred to as the "Stephanie Roper Highway".  Sounds like a memorial name.  Common parlance is either Pennsylvania Ave (west of Upper Marlboro), or Route 4.  WTOP's Bob Marbourg has used both...often interchangeably in the same traffic report (even east of Woodyard Rd).

It is now signed by SHA, and in the 2012 Highway Location Reference for Prince George's County.

And yes, it is a memorial designation.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 15, 2014, 02:29:19 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 15, 2014, 10:31:51 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 15, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
I've never heard of MD 4 being referred to as the "Stephanie Roper Highway".  Sounds like a memorial name.  Common parlance is either Pennsylvania Ave (west of Upper Marlboro), or Route 4.  WTOP's Bob Marbourg has used both...often interchangeably in the same traffic report (even east of Woodyard Rd).


I'd never heard it either, but the Roper name does show up on maps, including both Google and Bing (indeed I saw it on Google Maps prior to CP's post when I was pondering some of the prior comments in this thread). It's hardly unusual for a road to bear a formal name that isn't in general use by most of the public. Sixth Avenue in New York (purportedly "Avenue of the Americas," but not to 99% of New Yorkers) is a fine example of that sort of thing.

I know US-301 through Waldorf (and probably to either side of that area) is supposedly "Crain Highway," though I've never heard anyone use that name to refer to it either.

Crain Highway extends from the Gov. Harry Nice Memorial Bridge north along U.S. 301 to Bowie.

It continues along Md. 3 north into Anne Arundel County, and "disappears" at I-97 in Millersville/Gambrills, only to reappear as Md. 3 Business runs off of I-97 south of Glen Burnie.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on July 15, 2014, 03:19:20 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 15, 2014, 02:29:19 PM
Crain Highway extends from the Gov. Harry Nice Memorial Bridge north along U.S. 301 to Bowie.

It continues along Md. 3 north into Anne Arundel County, and "disappears" at I-97 in Millersville/Gambrills, only to reappear as Md. 3 Business runs off of I-97 south of Glen Burnie.

The tipoff is a lot of Old Crain Highway street signs of bypassed segments of the old highway.

In the "close but no cigar" category, re:  the OP's inquiry, both the (Robert E.) Lee and Jefferson Davis highways in Virginia are really long roads, which come thisclose to the D.C. line in Arlington, but never were part of or extensions of the D.C. street network (except perhaps, under pre-Confederate names, before Arlington was retroceded from the District in 1846). 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 15, 2014, 03:25:24 PM
Right, my point was simply that I've never heard of anyone refer to it as "Crain Highway." In other words, you have some roads where people use the name and/or the number. Route 50 in the Virginia suburbs is a good example–some people say "Route 50" and others say "Arlington Boulevard." I've never heard anyone use "Crain Highway"; every time I've heard anyone refer to any segment of that road, it's been by whatever route number applies to the specific stretch.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 15, 2014, 09:53:09 PM
QuoteRight, my point was simply that I've never heard of anyone refer to it as "Crain Highway."

I have on occasion, though I also worked in PGC.  Bob Marbourg has also used it on the air...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2014, 09:17:03 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 15, 2014, 03:25:24 PM
Right, my point was simply that I've never heard of anyone refer to it as "Crain Highway." In other words, you have some roads where people use the name and/or the number. Route 50 in the Virginia suburbs is a good example–some people say "Route 50" and others say "Arlington Boulevard." I've never heard anyone use "Crain Highway"; every time I've heard anyone refer to any segment of that road, it's been by whatever route number applies to the specific stretch.

I have heard the name Crain Highway used, albeit infrequently, and probably more to refer to the Md. 3 and Business Md. 3 segments in Anne Arundel County.   Crain Highway is so named to honor Robert S. Crain, who advocated for the construction of a highway between Southern Maryland and Baltimore.  There is a Crain Highway Monument (http://msa.maryland.gov/megafile/msa/stagsere/se1/se5/019000/019100/019127/pdf/msa_se5_19127.pdf) (Adobe Acrobat .pdf) in the median of Old Crain Highway in Upper Marlboro, Prince George's County.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on July 16, 2014, 12:56:07 PM
I mentioned in a post last month (which I've deleted, in favor of this one) several new signs reflecting the recent I-695 designation for parts of the 11th Street Bridge and the Southeast Freeway.  Since then, I went back to take some pictures, as well as nail down information on exit numbering.

All photos were taken July 5, 2014.  I'm not expecting additional signage changes, except on a still-being-rebuilt segment of I-695, and hopefully to fix some "what the food were they thinking?!" exit numbers on I-395.

(//www.alaskaroads.com/NatsPark-exits-sign-EB-I395_DSC2457.jpg)

The first of the new signs on I-395 eastbound, at the Potomac Park exit (exit 2), shows three exits you can use to reach Nationals Park, and that two of them are from I-695.

(//www.alaskaroads.com/NatsPark-exits-sign-SB-DC295_DSC2442.jpg)

The corresponding sign on DC 295 shows two exits for National Park, from different freeways (one you go straight onto I-295, the other you take I-695). 

(//www.alaskaroads.com/Upconing-exits-sign-EB-I395_DSC2425.jpg)

Back to eastbound I-395, this sign at the 12th Street NW exit (exit 3) shows the next three upcoming exits, and that one of them is a left exit onto I-695.

(//www.alaskaroads.com/Capitol-Hill-exit-signs-EB-I395-on-7thSt-overpass_DSC2481.jpg)

The sign on the left, on the 7th Street NW overpass, has been changed to eliminate one confusion but add another.  The sign used to incorrectly direct traffic heading to the south (House of Representatives) side of Capitol Hill to stay in the #2 lane, rather than the #4 lane as the next set of signs correctly shows.  Now the sign tells House-bound traffic to just use I-395.  I wish they'd move the sign to the right over the #3 lane, next to the sign over the #4 lane for the exit to continue on I-395 through the Third Street Tunnel, but at least the new sign steers all Capitol Hill-bound traffic into the right lanes. 

However, the new sign says the House exit is 2B, which is not only inconsistent with the next sign assembly that says that is exit 6, but also is out of sequence with I-395's other exit numbers.  This is just the beginning of some daffy new exit numbers.  EDIT:  But the corresponding House exit on in the other direction on I-395, coming out of the Third Street Tunnel, is now numbered 2B as well.  (I didn't notice any other exit number changes, yet, in either direction of I-395 from the tunnel to New York Ave., though I might've missed one due to sun glare.)

(//www.alaskaroads.com/exit-signs-EB-I395-from-6thSt-WB-exit_DSC2499.jpg)

This next sign assembly, photographed from the westbound I-395 exit to 6th Street NW, shows I-695 straight ahead, and that I-695 will take you to both I-295 and DC 295.  But the exit is identified as exit 2A.  This is out of sequence with I-395's other exit numbers, which eastbound are 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 (plus others in the Third Street Tunnel).  The logical number for the I-695 left exit is 7, and I don't understand why DDOT didn't go with that.

The exit sign for South Capitol Street shows that as exit 1A, which makes sense since it is the westernmost exit on I-695.

(//www.alaskaroads.com/exit-signs-WB-I395-leaving-3rdSt-Tunnel_DSC2517.jpg)

Similarly, this set of exit signs on westbound I-395, just after leaving the Third Street Tunnel, shows the left exit to I-695 as exit 2A.  IIRC, the old sign for the left exit used the more sensible exit 7 numbering.

====

There are also new posted exit numbers for I-695.  These all look reasonable.

Eastbound:

1A -- South Capitol Street

1B -- 6th Street SE

1C -- 11th Street SE (new exit, which apparently will be the tie-in to the bypassed old segment of the Southeast Freeway once it's rebuilt as a boulevard)

2A -- I-295 southbound

2B -- DC 295 northbound

Westbound:

EDIT: 1C -- left exit for Martin Luther King Ave. SE, just after the I-295/I-695 split

2 -- M Street SE

unnumbered -- I-395 north and south (this might be fixed later, after ongoing reconstruction on WB I-695 is done).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2014, 01:34:47 PM
Quote from: oscar on July 16, 2014, 12:56:07 PM
I mentioned in a post last month (which I've deleted, in favor of this one) several new signs reflecting the recent I-695 designation for parts of the 11th Street Bridge and the Southeast Freeway.  Since then, I went back to take some pictures, as well as nail down information on exit numbering.

DDOT just installed a sign on westbound I-695 (Southeast Freeway) for the exit to I-395 northbound - the control city is Baltimore

Are there plans to revive I-95 through D.C. that I missed?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on July 16, 2014, 01:44:23 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2014, 01:34:47 PM
Quote from: oscar on July 16, 2014, 12:56:07 PM
I mentioned in a post last month (which I've deleted, in favor of this one) several new signs reflecting the recent I-695 designation for parts of the 11th Street Bridge and the Southeast Freeway.  Since then, I went back to take some pictures, as well as nail down information on exit numbering.

DDOT just installed a sign on westbound I-695 (Southeast Freeway) for the exit to I-395 northbound - the control city is Baltimore

Are there plans to revive I-95 through D.C. that I missed?

Hmm.  I thought D.C. was trying to remove all the old signs using Baltimore (or New York) as control cities for the SW/SE Freeway, replacing them with local destinations like Capitol Hill, as part of an effort to discourage through traffic cutting through the city.

Do you recall seeing an exit number on that new sign?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2014, 10:58:05 PM
Quote from: oscar on July 16, 2014, 01:44:23 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2014, 01:34:47 PM
Quote from: oscar on July 16, 2014, 12:56:07 PM
I mentioned in a post last month (which I've deleted, in favor of this one) several new signs reflecting the recent I-695 designation for parts of the 11th Street Bridge and the Southeast Freeway.  Since then, I went back to take some pictures, as well as nail down information on exit numbering.

DDOT just installed a sign on westbound I-695 (Southeast Freeway) for the exit to I-395 northbound - the control city is Baltimore

Are there plans to revive I-95 through D.C. that I missed?

Hmm.  I thought D.C. was trying to remove all the old signs using Baltimore (or New York) as control cities for the SW/SE Freeway, replacing them with local destinations like Capitol Hill, as part of an effort to discourage through traffic cutting through the city.

Do you recall seeing an exit number on that new sign?

No, but I will look the next time I am by there (which is pretty frequently).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on July 17, 2014, 10:05:46 PM
Quote from: oscar on July 16, 2014, 12:56:07 PM
I mentioned in a post last month (which I've deleted, in favor of this one) several new signs reflecting the recent I-695 designation for parts of the 11th Street Bridge and the Southeast Freeway.  Since then, I went back to take some pictures, as well as nail down information on exit numbering.

All photos were taken July 5, 2014.  I'm not expecting additional signage changes, except on a still-being-rebuilt segment of I-695, and hopefully to fix some "what the food were they thinking?!" exit numbers on I-395.

(//www.alaskaroads.com/NatsPark-exits-sign-EB-I395_DSC2457.jpg)

The first of the new signs on I-395 eastbound, at the Potomac Park exit (exit 2), shows three exits you can use to reach Nationals Park, and that two of them are from I-695.

(//www.alaskaroads.com/NatsPark-exits-sign-SB-DC295_DSC2442.jpg)

The corresponding sign on DC 295 shows two exits for National Park, from different freeways (one you go straight onto I-295, the other you take I-695). 

(//www.alaskaroads.com/Upconing-exits-sign-EB-I395_DSC2425.jpg)

Back to eastbound I-395, this sign at the 12th Street NW exit (exit 3) shows the next three upcoming exits, and that one of them is a left exit onto I-695.

(//www.alaskaroads.com/Capitol-Hill-exit-signs-EB-I395-on-7thSt-overpass_DSC2481.jpg)

The sign on the left, on the 7th Street NW overpass, has been changed to eliminate one confusion but add another.  The sign used to incorrectly direct traffic heading to the south (House of Representatives) side of Capitol Hill to stay in the #2 lane, rather than the #4 lane as the next set of signs correctly shows.  Now the sign tells House-bound traffic to just use I-395.  I wish they'd move the sign to the right over the #3 lane, next to the sign over the #4 lane for the exit to continue on I-395 through the Third Street Tunnel, but at least the new sign steers all Capitol Hill-bound traffic into the right lanes. 

However, the new sign says the House exit is 2B, which is not only inconsistent with the next sign assembly that says that is exit 6, but also is out of sequence with I-395's other exit numbers.  This is just the beginning of some daffy new exit numbers. 

(//www.alaskaroads.com/exit-signs-EB-I395-from-6thSt-WB-exit_DSC2499.jpg)

This next sign assembly, photographed from the westbound I-395 exit to 6th Street NW, shows I-695 straight ahead, and that I-695 will take you to both I-295 and DC 295.  But the exit is identified as exit 2A.  This is out of sequence with I-395's other exit numbers, which eastbound are 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 (plus others in the Third Street Tunnel).  The logical number for the I-695 left exit is 7, and I don't understand why DDOT didn't go with that.

The exit sign for South Capitol Street shows that as exit 1A, which makes sense since it is the westernmost exit on I-695.

(//www.alaskaroads.com/exit-signs-WB-I395-leaving-3rdSt-Tunnel_DSC2517.jpg)

Similarly, this set of exit signs on westbound I-395, just after leaving the Third Street Tunnel, shows the left exit to I-695 as exit 2A.  IIRC, the old sign for the left exit used the more sensible exit 7 numbering.

====

There are also new posted exit numbers for I-695.  These all look reasonable.

Eastbound:

1A -- South Capitol Street

1B -- 6th Street SE

1C -- 11th Street SE (new exit, which apparently will be the tie-in to the bypassed old segment of the Southeast Freeway once it's rebuilt as a boulevard)

2A -- I-295 southbound

2B -- DC 295 northbound

Westbound:

unnumbered -- left exit for Martin Luther King Ave. SE, just after the I-295/I-695 split

2 -- M Street SE

unnumbered -- I-395 north and south (this might be fixed later, after ongoing reconstruction on WB I-695 is done).
Perhaps they're in the process of converting to mile-based numbers?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alex on July 17, 2014, 10:47:37 PM
Looks like I have to rephotograph DC again...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 24, 2014, 01:47:20 PM
Washington Post: The most dangerous intersections in Washington (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2014/07/23/the-most-dangerous-intersections-in-washington/)

QuoteThe District Department of Transportation just released a big report on traffic accidents in D.C. from 2010 through 2012. We mapped the intersections where the most crashes were reported during those three years.

QuoteThe blue pins mark the 20 intersections where the highest number of crashes took place. These intersections are in each quadrant of the city except Southwest, with six east of the Anacostia, just one west of Rock Creek, and the other 14 in between.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 24, 2014, 06:20:15 PM
WUSA-TV (Channel 9): DDOT accused of creating dangerous road conditions (http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/dc/2014/07/23/dangerous-road-conditions-dc/13080673/).

QuoteAAA is accusing the Metropolitan Police Department and the D.C. Department of Transportation of creating dangerous conditions for drivers, all in an effort to generate more revenue from speed cameras.

QuoteThis all came to light after a traffic engineer decided to go public after witnessing something he says he's never seen in his nearly 60 years on the job.

Quote"I believe this is my duty as a citizen to come forward. I've been doing this all my life," said traffic engineer Martin Wallen.

QuoteA few weeks ago, Wallen says he spotted a concrete barrier blocking the shoulder on I-295 and he showed WUSA9 pictures to prove it. He believes the barrier was erected to protect a speed camera, not drivers.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: SSOWorld on July 24, 2014, 10:27:12 PM
Quite odd that AAA speaks against this since they're venture into the insurance industry has taken them 180 to support low speed limits...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on July 24, 2014, 10:40:54 PM
Quote from: SSOWorld on July 24, 2014, 10:27:12 PM
Quite odd that AAA speaks against this since they're venture into the insurance industry has taken them 180 to support low speed limits...

But if the increased speed enforcement is mainly by speed cameras, with tickets issued to vehicle owners rather than drivers, that means few or no additional points on its members' driving records, and so little/no excuse for AAA to jack up their premiums. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on July 27, 2014, 08:23:40 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2014, 09:17:03 AM
There is a Crain Highway Monument (//http://) in the median of Old Crain Highway in Upper Marlboro, Prince George's County.

The link does not work for me.  I'm getting "The address is not valid".

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 30, 2014, 09:44:10 AM
Quote from: ixnay on July 27, 2014, 08:23:40 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2014, 09:17:03 AM
There is a Crain Highway Monument (//http://) in the median of Old Crain Highway in Upper Marlboro, Prince George's County.

The link does not work for me.  I'm getting "The address is not valid".

Fixed it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Doctor Whom on August 05, 2014, 02:02:23 PM
DC is apparently renumbering the exits on I-295.  Last weekend, I took I-295 to Suitland Parkway, and some (not all) of the signs for exits 3A and 3B had been changed to 4A and 4B.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on August 05, 2014, 02:28:12 PM
Quote from: Doctor Whom on August 05, 2014, 02:02:23 PM
DC is apparently renumbering the exits on I-295.  Last weekend, I took I-295 to Suitland Parkway, and some (not all) of the signs for exits 3A and 3B had been changed to 4A and 4B.

Thanks for the report.  I'm in a brief break between trips, won't have time to check out anytime soon the newest exit renumberings on I-295 and elsewhere in D.C., but it sounds like this is a moving target and DDOT won't be finished for awhile.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 27, 2014, 06:57:50 AM
WTOP Radio: Woman gets tickets for license plates that don't exist (http://www.wtop.com/?nid=1319&sid=3689588&pid=0&page=1)

QuoteSince 2010, a Maryland driver has been getting parking tickets in the mail from D.C. for different cars with a vanity plate, none of which belong to her.

QuoteAmy Mohney, of Burtonsville, is an accountant for the Food and Drug Administration. She owns Maryland license plate CPA-0061. However, the license plate on each of the tickets she's gotten were for a car with Maryland tags 0061 - - no letters, just four numbers.

QuoteOver the last four years, she'd occasionally get tickets in the mail for that license plate. Each listed a different type of car, but each listed 0061 as the license plate. The D.C. Department of Motor Vehicles, which is responsible for adjudicating all tickets issued in the District of Columbia, made each her responsibility.

Quote"There must be thousands of combinations of three letters and 0061 -- why me? I don't understand why every ticket written to 0061 would get assigned to me. It's just not right," says Mohney.

QuoteMaryland officials were equally baffled. The Motor Vehicle Administration (MVA) told WTOP Ticketbuster that not only did those plates not belong to Mohney -- they didn't belong to anyone. Records indicate the plates haven't been active for at least 15 years.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on September 08, 2014, 12:47:21 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2014, 01:34:47 PM
DDOT just installed a sign on westbound I-695 (Southeast Freeway) for the exit to I-395 northbound - the control city is Baltimore.

Answering my own question about this post above -- limping home earlier this evening from a trip out of town, I noticed the new sign has an "exit 1C" tab.

Exit 1C is also posted on the left exit to Martin Luther King, Jr. Avenue, from the ramp from DC 295 SB to I-695 WB.  Maybe 1C for the MLK exit is intended as an exit from DC 295, rather than I-695?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 09, 2014, 05:53:48 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 06, 2014, 04:03:21 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 29, 2013, 02:41:42 PM
Washington Post: A month later, no clues in Ronald Kirby's murder (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/a-month-later-no-clues-in-ronald-kirbys-slaying/2013/12/28/57753286-668e-11e3-a0b9-249bbb34602c_story.html)

QuoteAnne Haynes has been thinking about going solo on the trip she and her husband planned to take to Antarctica in January. The books she's been reading on grief say it's good to get away.

QuoteShe's been reading poetry, too, a reminder of the love poems she and Ronald Kirby read to each other early in their romance. She wants to hold on to everything about him – she even hopes police eventually will be able to return the clothes, glasses and shoes he wore the day he was killed.

Could the City of Alexandria police be on to something regarding the murder of Ron Kirby?

Washington Post: Same gun may have been used in three Alexandria slayings, police say (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/police-schedule-news-conference-to-discuss-killing-of-alexandria-music-teacher/2014/03/06/a1a9f0a2-a53c-11e3-84d4-e59b1709222c_story.html)

News regarding the murder of Ron Kirby and two other persons in Alexandria. I am not using the phrase "good news" because there is no such thing when it comes to murder of human beings.  If the police have their man, then he will not be killing anyone else at least.

Charles Severance indicted on murder charges (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/charles-severance-indicted-on-murder-charges/2014/09/08/1124c952-377d-11e4-8601-97ba88884ffd_story.html)

QuoteA man who for months has been the focus of police investigations into three high-profile slayings in Alexandria has been indicted on murder charges, prosecutors said.

QuoteCharles Severance, 53, is in jail in Loudoun County awaiting trial on a gun possession charge. The Alexandria indictment contains ten charges, including two charges of capital murder and one charge of first-degree murder in the deaths of Ruthanne Lodato, Ronald Kirby and Nancy Dunning.

Quote"This has been a complex and time-consuming investigation that has spanned almost 11 years,"  the Alexandria police said in a statement.

QuoteAlexandria Commonwealth's Attorney Bryan Porter does not intend to seek the death penalty, his office said in a statement. The maximum sentence Severance could face, should he be convicted on any of the murder charges, is life in prison.

QuoteThe last of the three murders occurred in February, when music teacher Ruthanne Lodato was slain in her home. A caregiver who survived that attack helped police create a sketch of the killer.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 09, 2014, 10:22:23 AM
Washington Post: Withering inspector general report criticizes D.C. parking and traffic ticketing (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/withering-inspector-general-report-criticizes-dc-parking-and-traffic-ticketing/2014/09/08/da6ae324-3781-11e4-8601-97ba88884ffd_story.html)

QuoteIn Washington, D.C., where issuing traffic citations is a $179 million-a-year business, drivers get speeding tickets for violations they don't commit and for vehicles they've never owned.

QuoteThose are among the findings in a 115-page audit of the three city agencies that issued nearly 2.5 million parking and traffic tickets in fiscal 2013, according to a withering report issued Monday by the D.C. inspector general.

QuoteThe report portrays the District as the Wild West of traffic enforcement when compared with neighboring jurisdictions and the states, with a shortage of regulations, a legion of ticket writers often confused about the rules, "arbitrary"  decision-making about who gets some speed-camera tickets and parking-meter monitors who get called on the carpet if they don't write enough tickets.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 09, 2014, 10:51:27 AM
heh, the one time I got pulled over in DC, I was clearly in the wrong (I ran the first of two closely spaced lights; it was red and the next one, maybe 50 feet away, had just turned green) - and I was let off with a verbal warning.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 09, 2014, 06:34:38 PM
WTOP Radio: MPD changes ticket policy after OIG report (http://www.wtop.com/1319/3698466/MPD-changes-ticket-policy-after-report)

QuoteWASHINGTON -- The Metropolitan Police Department amended part of its ticketing policy after a report released Monday criticized a practice that "led to erroneous ticketing."

QuoteThe issue is known as a make-model mismatch, which is when the type of car in a speed or red-light camera ticket does not match the car in the DMV record.

QuoteIn D.C., MPD policy was to issue the ticket to whoever owns the license plate, according to a report from the Office of the Inspector General.

QuoteAn example in the MPD's training guide shows a ticket for a Lexus, then a Virginia DMV profile that shows the same license plates belonging to a Ford.

Quote"If the vehicle tags do not match as seen here, PLEASE APPROVE," the manual instructs reviewers, including the capital letters. "The owner may have swapped tags. These are okay to issue." it reads.

QuoteHowever, the inspector general's report points out while some reviews at MPD follow this advice, others disregard it and void the ticket automatically.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 09, 2014, 06:36:10 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 09, 2014, 10:51:27 AM
heh, the one time I got pulled over in DC, I was clearly in the wrong (I ran the first of two closely spaced lights; it was red and the next one, maybe 50 feet away, had just turned green) - and I was let off with a verbal warning.

Most Metropolitan Police Department-D.C. (MPDDC) officers do not like to spend the time it take to issue a written ticket.

IMO, that is one of the reasons the automated program has grown so much (and gotten out of control, as described by the D.C. Inspector General).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 11, 2014, 11:51:57 AM
Dr. Gridlock has a rather scathing analysis of DC's speed camera placements: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2014/09/11/location-always-important-in-placing-d-c-speed-cameras/

An excerpt (boldface added) follows. Citing a school that's been closed as a reason for a speed camera makes their motivations all the more transparent.

QuoteSince the District began the speed camera program in 2001, it always has been about specific locations. That includes the request from the D.C. Council in 2013 that the District Department of Transportation coordinate a study to determine the relationship between traffic safety and the location of the cameras, either installed or proposed–a grand total of 295 locations at the time of the study.

The purpose, as the study noted, was "to instill public trust that speed cameras are installed by the D.C. government to improve safety and not just increase local revenues."

After an evaluation of the 295 sites, the District gave itself a perfect score, according to the findings, released in January. The agencies involved were able to justify every single, existing, planned or proposed location for traffic cameras. That's remarkable. Even Mary Poppins was only "practically perfect."

Turns out perfection isn't that hard to achieve. Let's look at one of the proposed sites, the 100-200 block of Kentucky Avenue SE. The avenue links East Capitol Street in the north with Pennsylvania Avenue in the south. The posted speed limit is 25 mph, with one travel lane in each direction.

The thing is, there's no evidence that speeding is a chronic problem at this location. "The mean speed is less than the posted speed in both directions at this location,"  the researchers said. Data showed a low number of crashes.

Don't despair. We'll find a reason yet.

....

"There are four schools in the area: Hine Junior High School, Watkins Elementary School, International Graduate University and Payne Elementary School."  Hine is half a mile away, but why quibble? It closed a few years ago. Payne, at least, is still open and about a five-minute walk away on the south side of C Street SE.

Conclusion: "Although the speed data analysis showed low travel speeds and the crash data analysis showed a low number of crashes in this area, there are other factors that reflect a safety concern. Due to the specific site characteristics of a residential area, the proximity of school zones, and the pedestrian generators, there is a nexus between traffic safety and speed camera at this location."

Nexus, shmexus. It's a stretch.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 12, 2014, 07:59:40 AM
Went through the Ninth Street Tunnel late last night on the way home from the 9:30 Club. The old button-copy signs through there are no more–new signs have been posted as part of the effort to sign I-695. Signs for the left exit now list I-395 to I-695. The sign for the straight-through movement no longer mentions the Maine Avenue waterfront because it's been demolished for redevelopment, and the sign for the right exit now lists Richmond instead of simply saying "Virginia." (There's also only one sign for that exit, right at the exit itself; I don't know whether that's a temporary change.)

Button-copy aficionados can still find some on the ramp from the tunnel to southbound I-395/westbound Maine Avenue (one button-copy assembly left there) and on westbound Maine Avenue just east of the exit for the 12th Street Tunnel.

The aggressive sign replacement in DC makes me wonder how long the ancient sign bridge on I-66 near the Kennedy Center has left (hopefully the project in the tunnel is simply because of the desire to post I-695). I'm driving my wife to work near there this morning because she needs to make a stop en route in an area with little parking, so I'll take a slight detour and check on it when I'm leaving the District.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 14, 2014, 12:14:49 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 12, 2014, 07:59:40 AM
The aggressive sign replacement in DC makes me wonder how long the ancient sign bridge on I-66 near the Kennedy Center has left (hopefully the project in the tunnel is simply because of the desire to post I-695). I'm driving my wife to work near there this morning because she needs to make a stop en route in an area with little parking, so I'll take a slight detour and check on it when I'm leaving the District.

If you are speaking of the sign bridge that has the variable I-66 HOV information on it, DDOT would need to coordinate that with VDOT, since VDOT controls the variable messages on the sign.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 14, 2014, 12:17:50 PM
Dr. Gridlock in the Washington Post: D.C. government practices abuse public trust in traffic enforcement programs (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/dc-government-practices-abuse-public-trust-in-traffic-enforcement-programs/2014/09/13/90ceced6-39e5-11e4-bdfb-de4104544a37_story.html)

QuoteGovernments raise money from a variety of human failings. Could be smoking, could be breaking traffic laws.

QuoteTaxes and fines can discourage the behavior. But sometimes the government becomes an addict, relying so heavily on the revenue that it loses focus on the behavior it was trying to moderate.

QuoteThat's what was so disheartening about the new D.C. inspector general's report highlighting the various ways in which the city government abuses public trust in its traffic enforcement programs.

QuoteThe inspector general knows what you're thinking. "Skeptical members of the public might believe that the District's failure to inform them on this subject is intentional: Without clear criteria of the District's ticketing policy, a ticketed motorist is unable to prove that DDOT enforcement officers failed to follow proper procedure."

QuoteAll the administrative vagaries unify around one concept: They make it easy to raise revenue, and they make it difficult to challenge a ticket.

QuoteAnd it's not just the city bureaucracy. "There are essentially no statutory restrictions on the District's burgeoning network of speed, red light, and pedestrian safety enforcement cameras,"  the inspector general's report said. "Other jurisdictions have imposed specific limits on the numbers and uses of cameras, and even the hours of the day during which they may be in operation."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: storm2k on September 16, 2014, 01:32:19 PM
QuoteIf you are speaking of the sign bridge that has the variable I-66 HOV information on it, DDOT would need to coordinate that with VDOT, since VDOT controls the variable messages on the sign.

I believe that's in reference to this (https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/dc001/i-066_wb_exit_000_04.jpg) gantry which has survived since pretty much the dawn of Interstate time.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 16, 2014, 02:15:06 PM
Quote from: storm2k on September 16, 2014, 01:32:19 PM
QuoteIf you are speaking of the sign bridge that has the variable I-66 HOV information on it, DDOT would need to coordinate that with VDOT, since VDOT controls the variable messages on the sign.

I believe that's in reference to this (https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/dc001/i-066_wb_exit_000_04.jpg) gantry which has survived since pretty much the dawn of Interstate time.

You are correct. It was still in place as of Friday morning.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 27, 2014, 10:43:43 PM
The previous page of this thread has a bunch of photos of I-395 and various new signs. I went through there eastbound last night on the way home from a Caps preseason game (Ninth Street Tunnel--->I-395--->I-695--->I-295) and I noted further new signs. Also got a look at some new overhead APL signs today from the upper level at Nationals Park. I'll try to upload video captures Sunday or, more likely, Monday. Some of the screwy exit numbers have been changed, though there's still some oddness. I-695 is far more clearly posted than it ever was before.

I have to say DC has put some real effort into upgrading their signage.

At some point I need to drop down under the L'Enfant Promenade to see if the I-95 BGS is still there.....
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Doctor Whom on September 28, 2014, 12:34:38 PM
Last night, when coming back from the Folger, I took westbound 695 to southbound 395.  There is now a prominent "END 695" sign.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alex on September 28, 2014, 06:40:46 PM
Drove through DC on Tuseday night while flaroads shot video and noticed several of the new signs posted since last August. Would love to acquire some new photos to update the main DC area pages.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 29, 2014, 11:49:23 AM
I'm not sure I can generate any good video captures from Friday night's drive because I was getting some camera vibration (I ordered a new suction-cup mount this morning) and because the image is kind of grainy. But here's the video of the trip through the Ninth Street Tunnel and across I-695 so you can see the new signs. The signs look to be a work still in progress–I note from reviewing the video the exit numbers are still somewhat illogical because I-695 is numbered as Exit 2 from I-395, yet the next exit had we continued on I-395 into the Third Street Tunnel is still Exit 6. I didn't use I-395 en route to Nationals Park for Saturday's ballgame due to traffic, so I have not yet confirmed whether they've revised the exit numbers for 12th Street and the Maine Avenue exit. As of last Tuesday, when I attended the Winter Classic press conference at the ballpark, those two exits were still Exits 3 and 4, respectively.

The empty space and greenout on the signs for the new exit for 11th Street SE is most likely there for the new at-grade boulevard now under construction where the eastern stub of I-295 used to be (segment between the bridge and Barney Circle). It's generally been referred to as "Southeast Boulevard," though I don't know whether the DC DOT has formally adopted that name.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 30, 2014, 10:44:48 AM
Washington Post: Declining traffic-camera revenue threatens to unbalance D.C.'s budget (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/declining-traffic-camera-revenue-threatens-to-unbalance-dcs-budget/2014/09/29/245ce9aa-4821-11e4-b72e-d60a9229cc10_story.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Pete from Boston on September 30, 2014, 01:07:10 PM
We've all always known that lawbreaking was integral to the functioning of our nation's capital, but I guess I never fully appreciated the extent.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on September 30, 2014, 01:36:49 PM
Ticket revenues should not be a part of the budget!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Brandon on September 30, 2014, 01:58:03 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 30, 2014, 10:44:48 AM
Washington Post: Declining traffic-camera revenue threatens to unbalance D.C.'s budget (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/declining-traffic-camera-revenue-threatens-to-unbalance-dcs-budget/2014/09/29/245ce9aa-4821-11e4-b72e-d60a9229cc10_story.html)

Chicago should take note.  Rahm's betting on traffic violation revenue to balance his budget.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 30, 2014, 02:38:15 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 30, 2014, 01:58:03 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 30, 2014, 10:44:48 AM
Washington Post: Declining traffic-camera revenue threatens to unbalance D.C.'s budget (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/declining-traffic-camera-revenue-threatens-to-unbalance-dcs-budget/2014/09/29/245ce9aa-4821-11e4-b72e-d60a9229cc10_story.html)

Chicago should take note.  Rahm's betting on traffic violation revenue to balance his budget.

IMO, that's a bad bet.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on October 01, 2014, 08:54:16 AM
Quote from: storm2k on September 16, 2014, 01:32:19 PM
QuoteIf you are speaking of the sign bridge that has the variable I-66 HOV information on it, DDOT would need to coordinate that with VDOT, since VDOT controls the variable messages on the sign.

I believe that's in reference to this (https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/dc001/i-066_wb_exit_000_04.jpg) gantry which has survived since pretty much the dawn of Interstate time.

Anyone know what's under the wood at left and right?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 01, 2014, 08:56:55 AM
Nobody really knows.  There's been speculation of such at a couple of DC meets, but that's about it.

My theory is some sort of I-695 shield, as I-695 was slated for the West Leg.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 01, 2014, 09:02:01 AM
Quote from: NE2 on October 01, 2014, 08:54:16 AM
Quote from: storm2k on September 16, 2014, 01:32:19 PM
QuoteIf you are speaking of the sign bridge that has the variable I-66 HOV information on it, DDOT would need to coordinate that with VDOT, since VDOT controls the variable messages on the sign.

I believe that's in reference to this (https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/dc001/i-066_wb_exit_000_04.jpg) gantry which has survived since pretty much the dawn of Interstate time.

Anyone know what's under the wood at left and right?

Been mentioned in several threads and nobody knows. I'd love to get a look under there, but I fear the assembly will be replaced without us ever getting to see. I suspect the one on the left is probably an I-695 sign. That route was originally planned to connect from the Roosevelt Bridge to what is now I-395, with I-66 feeding into it from both directions, and DC probably went ahead and put up the sign and never removed it.

As for the far right, I have no idea.

I'm afraid to ask a local reporter like Dr. Gridlock or Adam Tuss because I'm sure if they asked District authorities, it'd lead to the assembly being replaced.


Edited to add: This map shows where I-695 would have run. The assembly discussed above is off the map at the top left. It's just as well this road was never built. The impact on the Mall, West Potomac Park, and Tidal Basin areas would have been considerable, and for the most part the existing Independence Avenue does well enough at handling the traffic. Of course it sometimes gets overburdened, especially in March/April around cherry blossom time, but it's not enough of a problem to warrant an Interstate highway there. It probably would have been a substandard highway by today's standards, too.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgreatergreater.com%2Fimages%2F201112%2Fplana.jpg&hash=59255db6c51eaed5fcaa1016b7c96fa31ac58299)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 01, 2014, 11:12:07 AM
The video was great, but that merge from the 9th street tunnel to 395 EB looks dangerous.  Plus, wow the freeway lighting seems subpar.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 01, 2014, 11:34:40 AM
Quote from: ARMOURERERIC on October 01, 2014, 11:12:07 AM
The video was great, but that merge from the 9th street tunnel to 395 EB looks dangerous.  Plus, wow the freeway lighting seems subpar.

Thanks. I've never found the lighting all that terrible, but then, I've lived here a long time so I know the road, and no doubt my HID headlights help!

The merge can be extremely dangerous. It's actually easier at night than it is during the day because, in theory at least, you have the headlights helping you to see the cars coming up in the left lane (although on average I see at least one vehicle with no headlights at some point during any trip home from Verizon Center). The ramp itself makes it very hard to see approaching cars during the day. Speed limit there is 40 mph, but it's quite unusual to see anyone obeying that, to the point where DC is installing a new speed camera on the right side of the road just prior to that merge point. The camera isn't active yet because people pointed out the first 40-mph sign doesn't appear until after you pass the camera and DC agreed that wasn't fair. Other thing is, there's a lot of lane-changing going on in that area. The old signs just prior to the merge point used to tell traffic bound for C Street NW, the US Capitol, and the House to be in the LEFT lane when they actually needed to be in the RIGHT lane to head for the Third Street Tunnel. People unfamiliar with the area would panic due to the need to change lanes so quickly. The new sign is not perfect, but it's better. Of course, you still have plenty of aggressive drivers who will try to use the left lane to bomb past people and then cut over at the last second, too.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on October 01, 2014, 01:26:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 01, 2014, 09:02:01 AM
Quote from: NE2 on October 01, 2014, 08:54:16 AM
Quote from: storm2k on September 16, 2014, 01:32:19 PM
QuoteIf you are speaking of the sign bridge that has the variable I-66 HOV information on it, DDOT would need to coordinate that with VDOT, since VDOT controls the variable messages on the sign.

I believe that's in reference to this (https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/dc001/i-066_wb_exit_000_04.jpg) gantry which has survived since pretty much the dawn of Interstate time.

Anyone know what's under the wood at left and right?

Been mentioned in several threads and nobody knows. I'd love to get a look under there, but I fear the assembly will be replaced without us ever getting to see. I suspect the one on the left is probably an I-695 sign. That route was originally planned to connect from the Roosevelt Bridge to what is now I-395, with I-66 feeding into it from both directions, and DC probably went ahead and put up the sign and never removed it.

As for the far right, I have no idea.

I'm afraid to ask a local reporter like Dr. Gridlock or Adam Tuss because I'm sure if they asked District authorities, it'd lead to the assembly being replaced.


Edited to add: This map shows where I-695 would have run. The assembly discussed above is off the map at the top left. It's just as well this road was never built. The impact on the Mall, West Potomac Park, and Tidal Basin areas would have been considerable, and for the most part the existing Independence Avenue does well enough at handling the traffic. Of course it sometimes gets overburdened, especially in March/April around cherry blossom time, but it's not enough of a problem to warrant an Interstate highway there. It probably would have been a substandard highway by today's standards, too.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgreatergreater.com%2Fimages%2F201112%2Fplana.jpg&hash=59255db6c51eaed5fcaa1016b7c96fa31ac58299)
A freeway right on top of the FDR memorial?  No thanks.  But there's no denying that Dad would have been a lot less aggravated with DC traffic if he could have avoided surface streets when trying to make our way back to the hotel from the FDR and Jefferson memorials (the one time we drove in DC, because of coming from Mount Vernon).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 01, 2014, 02:23:41 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 01, 2014, 01:26:52 PM
A freeway right on top of the FDR memorial?  No thanks.  But there's no denying that Dad would have been a lot less aggravated with DC traffic if he could have avoided surface streets when trying to make our way back to the hotel from the FDR and Jefferson memorials (the one time we drove in DC, because of coming from Mount Vernon).

That map makes it look like a very short tunnel in that area, but yeah, that would be a bad location for a highway (the Martin Luther King memorial is now just east of where that tunnel is depicted, too).

I can't help but wonder how a tunnel and associated vibrations might have affected the Lincoln Memorial. I'm sure the engineers would have worked it all out, but I have no idea how far into the design and engineering phase the plans for that road proceeded. When I was a kid there were tours offered underneath the Lincoln Memorial from time to time and I remember going on the tour once. It's a strange, creepy place–reminds me a bit of some of the larger rooms in Moria in the Peter Jackson adaptation of The Fellowship of the Ring (though of course on a smaller scale than what Moria was supposed to be). Lots of massive pillars, to be sure, but the whole area is "reclaimed" land and there's definite water seepage in places because one area had a lot of stalactites. I don't doubt a highway tunnel would have had some kind of effect on the memorial or, alternatively, would have been extremely expensive to construct due to the need to protect the memorial and its foundation. That tunnel would have passed pretty close to the foundation's western side.

I will concede the highway there would have made a difference for my wife's commute on days when she drives. She works at the Watergate complex and it's a hassle to get from there to southbound I-395 in Virginia in the afternoons due to Rock Creek Parkway and Ohio Drive being one-way outbound from the light south of the Lincoln Memorial. (It's not much easier in the mornings if I drop her off, either, but the difficulty is for different reasons.)

I don't have the time to look for the image online just now, but somewhere there's an image of an old propaganda poster used by the anti-highway people that depicted the highway tunnel emerging in front of the Lincoln Memorial where the Reflecting Pool is. That wasn't at all what was planned, but it was still a pretty effective image. An Interstate highway through that park-like area would have radically changed things.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Laura on October 01, 2014, 04:43:13 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 30, 2014, 02:38:15 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 30, 2014, 01:58:03 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 30, 2014, 10:44:48 AM
Washington Post: Declining traffic-camera revenue threatens to unbalance D.C.'s budget (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/declining-traffic-camera-revenue-threatens-to-unbalance-dcs-budget/2014/09/29/245ce9aa-4821-11e4-b72e-d60a9229cc10_story.html)

Chicago should take note.  Rahm's betting on traffic violation revenue to balance his budget.

IMO, that's a bad bet.

Oh, but the cameras were about safety, not money...lol
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 01, 2014, 11:19:43 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 01, 2014, 09:02:01 AM
Edited to add: This map shows where I-695 would have run. The assembly discussed above is off the map at the top left. It's just as well this road was never built. The impact on the Mall, West Potomac Park, and Tidal Basin areas would have been considerable, and for the most part the existing Independence Avenue does well enough at handling the traffic. Of course it sometimes gets overburdened, especially in March/April around cherry blossom time, but it's not enough of a problem to warrant an Interstate highway there. It probably would have been a substandard highway by today's standards, too.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgreatergreater.com%2Fimages%2F201112%2Fplana.jpg&hash=59255db6c51eaed5fcaa1016b7c96fa31ac58299)

As a road that had anything at-grade or above-grade, it would have been totally unacceptable because of the impacts on the cherry trees, the Tidal Basin and the historic Kutz Bridge.

As a bored tunnel (which may not have been workable when this was planned), it would have eliminated most or all of those impacts - but might also have been a problem with a giant force sewer main that runs from a pumping station under the D.C. end of the T. Roosevelt Bridge parallel to the D.C. Potomac River waterfront to the Blue Plains Advanced Wastewater Treatment Plant.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on October 01, 2014, 11:49:54 PM
It would also be pretty damn redundant, with SR 110 across the river providing the same movements with only a slightly longer distance.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 02, 2014, 09:01:49 AM
Quote from: NE2 on October 01, 2014, 11:49:54 PM
It would also be pretty damn redundant, with SR 110 across the river providing the same movements with only a slightly longer distance.

Route 110 actually doesn't really do a good job of providing the same movements if you're already in the District. It's not obvious from a map because maps don't show the reversible roads and blocked-off lanes that pose an issue at rush hour. For example, as I noted earlier, during the afternoon rush hour there's no particularly good way from the Watergate/GWU area to Route 110 and I-395 because Rock Creek Parkway is one-way outbound and I-66 in DC provides no easy connection to Memorial Bridge. So you either use 23 Street (a slow process, lots of lights and jaywalkers), the Whitehurst and Key Bridge (slow through the light on M Street), or the Roosevelt Bridge and then exit and turn around somewhere (also can be very slow due to people who must exit I-66 due to the HOV rules). You'd have to do any of that just to get to Route 110 in the first place.

You cannot go from the Watergate/GWU area to Southwest (Tidal Basin, Maine Avenue, Nationals Park area) during the afternoon rush hour without either going through the streets at least to 17 Street or entering Virginia.

As I said before, none of this justified building a highway through that area of DC. The damage it would have caused would have been unforgivable. But Route 110 isn't really a substitute for it. It'd be nice if there were some way to modify the traffic pattern a little so that southbound (westbound?) traffic on DC's stub of I-66 in the afternoon weren't forced either to use outbound Rock Creek Parkway or make a U-turn. But it's a complicated little area, compounded by National Park Service jurisdiction and the nearby historic sites (Lincoln Memorial, Memorial Bridge, etc.).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 02, 2014, 09:12:17 AM
What that spot (Potomac Fwy spur at Rock Creek Pkwy) really needs is an overpass.  But between NPS jurisdiction and the tight confines, plus the narrowness on Ohio Dr under the parkway connection to Lincoln Circle, I don't see it happening.

As for SPUI's mention of 110, that's a better connection from Rosslyn to the SW/SE Fwy, and that might be what he was referring to.  Agree with Hoo that 110 wouldn't work for Foggy Bottom/GWU to Southwest trips.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on October 02, 2014, 09:15:02 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 02, 2014, 09:01:49 AM
Quote from: NE2 on October 01, 2014, 11:49:54 PM
It would also be pretty damn redundant, with SR 110 across the river providing the same movements with only a slightly longer distance.

Route 110 actually doesn't really do a good job of providing the same movements if you're already in the District.
If you're in the District, you're already on surface streets, sucker. Ideally Interstates are for distances more than a mile or two.

PS: why is the access from I-66 to Independence closed in afternoon rush hour (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=38.891943,-77.052859&spn=0.002985,0.006196&t=k&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.892012,-77.052646&panoid=al_kT3uWYqQBJLldIs-5SQ&cbp=12,179.86,,1,5.98)? Ohio Drive has four lanes - is it that they're unwilling to put a light there? But then why are right turns banned from the Lincoln Memorial Circle access (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=38.892016,-77.054728&spn=0.003002,0.006196&t=k&z=18&layer=c&cbll=38.892016,-77.054728&panoid=WsLP3bJjbOL7NzMugiiRvA&cbp=12,20.38,,0,8.91)?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 02, 2014, 09:17:59 AM
Something else that probably bears remembering is that we're discussing that segment of I-695 in isolation with respect to today's roads. It's important to remember it was one segment of a larger planned highway network. In this particular context, the notable aspect is that I-66 would have continued across DC to I-95 and I-266 would have brought in traffic from the northwest. Presumably those highways would have carried a fair amount of traffic, and it would have been highly impractical, and nonsensical, to funnel all that traffic over the bridges to Virginia, through the streets to turn around to get to Route 110, and then back over another bridge into the District.

In that context, the highway would have served a valid role, although it doesn't change my opinion that Independence Avenue would have been sufficient with some reconfiguring at the area mentioned in my prior comment.




I-66 to Independence is closed in the afternoon because Ohio Drive is one-way outbound at that time of day. The one-way pattern begins at the light south of the Lincoln Memorial at that teardrop-shaped faux-roundabout. Going past the Kennedy Center, the two lanes on the left side of the median are for thru traffic and the two lanes on the right side are for local traffic (Kennedy Center and Watergate–I use that route to pick up my wife after work en route to hockey games). There are always a lot of near-accidents caused by people who don't know where they're going who simply slam on the brakes in confusion.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on October 02, 2014, 09:19:34 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 02, 2014, 09:12:17 AM
What that spot (Potomac Fwy spur at Rock Creek Pkwy) really needs is an overpass.  But between NPS jurisdiction and the tight confines, plus the narrowness on Ohio Dr under the parkway connection to Lincoln Circle, I don't see it happening.
How about closing the access from Ohio Drive north to Rock Creek Parkway north entirely? Local traffic going to Watergate can take the loop onto Lincoln Memorial Circle and immediately fork right, and through traffic can go straight onto I-66, staying in either of the left two lanes to rejoin Rock Creek Parkway at Virginia Avenue.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on October 02, 2014, 09:22:03 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 02, 2014, 09:17:59 AM
Something else that probably bears remembering is that we're discussing that segment of I-695 in isolation with respect to today's roads. It's important to remember it was one segment of a larger planned highway network. In this particular context, the notable aspect is that I-66 would have continued across DC to I-95 and I-266 would have brought in traffic from the northwest.
But how much traffic would be heading west on I-66, only to turn back east on I-695? The Center Leg under the Capitol would be the better route.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 02, 2014, 09:25:07 AM
Quote from: NE2 on October 02, 2014, 09:22:03 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 02, 2014, 09:17:59 AM
Something else that probably bears remembering is that we're discussing that segment of I-695 in isolation with respect to today's roads. It's important to remember it was one segment of a larger planned highway network. In this particular context, the notable aspect is that I-66 would have continued across DC to I-95 and I-266 would have brought in traffic from the northwest.
But how much traffic would be heading west on I-66, only to turn back east on I-695? The Center Leg under the Capitol would be the better route.

Frankly, who knows? It's all speculation since most of it was never built. I don't pine for the "unbuilt DC highway network." That ship sailed long ago. I do think there are improvements that can help things out a great deal, as we've already seen with the rebuilt Eleventh Street Bridge. It may be the single biggest improvement within the District of Columbia during my lifetime so far.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on October 02, 2014, 09:33:36 AM
I bet that part of I-695 was included in the system because I-70S was originally planned to end up on the Whitehurst Freeway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on October 04, 2014, 11:51:01 PM
Quote from: NE2 on October 02, 2014, 09:19:34 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 02, 2014, 09:12:17 AM
What that spot (Potomac Fwy spur at Rock Creek Pkwy) really needs is an overpass.  But between NPS jurisdiction and the tight confines, plus the narrowness on Ohio Dr under the parkway connection to Lincoln Circle, I don't see it happening.
How about closing the access from Ohio Drive north to Rock Creek Parkway north entirely? Local traffic going to Watergate can take the loop onto Lincoln Memorial Circle and immediately fork right, and through traffic can go straight onto I-66, staying in either of the left two lanes to rejoin Rock Creek Parkway at Virginia Avenue.

I agree.  To me, Independence is one of the quickest ways to get from Capitol Hill to the river.  It would be nice if there were easier access from I-66 to Independence at all times, which could be achieved if the connection from Ohio Drive to Rock Creek Parkway were closed.  Traffic from Ohio could also reach the Rock Creek Parkway, by taking the exit (from Ohio Drive) for the Memorial Bridge and taking the ramp to the Rock Creek Parkway there.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on October 05, 2014, 12:04:54 AM
Quote from: mrsman on October 04, 2014, 11:51:01 PM
Quote from: NE2 on October 02, 2014, 09:19:34 AM
Local traffic going to Watergate can take the loop onto Lincoln Memorial Circle and immediately fork right,
Traffic from Ohio could also reach the Rock Creek Parkway, by taking the exit (from Ohio Drive) for the Memorial Bridge and taking the ramp to the Rock Creek Parkway there.
That's what I was talking about above. The left turn across southbound RCP is not really suitable for large volumes of traffic.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on October 05, 2014, 06:37:10 AM
Quote from: NE2 on October 05, 2014, 12:04:54 AM
Quote from: mrsman on October 04, 2014, 11:51:01 PM
Quote from: NE2 on October 02, 2014, 09:19:34 AM
Local traffic going to Watergate can take the loop onto Lincoln Memorial Circle and immediately fork right,
Traffic from Ohio could also reach the Rock Creek Parkway, by taking the exit (from Ohio Drive) for the Memorial Bridge and taking the ramp to the Rock Creek Parkway there.
That's what I was talking about above. The left turn across southbound RCP is not really suitable for large volumes of traffic.

Yes, now I see.

This whole area is quite confusing.  There are a lot of different commuter routes that interchange here (on both sides of the river) and there is very poor signage as to how to get between each.  Especially along NPS roads.

On the Virginia side, you have GWP, I-66, and US 50 approaching Rosslyn from the northwest and west.  Some (but not all) of these roads lead to the Memorial Bridge, TR bridge, or VA-110.  VA-110 is the way to continue south toward Alexandria (and I-395).  All of these roads should link in a straightforward way.

On the DC side, you have E Street Expressway, Constitution, Independence, (and K, but K is a bit north of this area) as the main corridors out of Downtown towards the river.  All three should interchange easily with Memorial Bridge, TR Bridge, Rock Creek Parkway, and the Whitehurst Freeway.  The Whitehurst will then connect with either the Key Bridge or the Canal Rd/Macarthur Blvd corridor (which eventually leads to the quickest way to I-270 for cars).

But navigating here is a complete mess.

I have particular ire for the RC Parkway/Beach Drive combination.  It should be the quickest way from my area to Downtown.  But it is very hard to navigate because of poor signing.  I would like to drive on it as far north as possible, maybe linking with 16th by the old Walter Reed, but signage tells you to leave at several earlier points to get to 16th Street.  It is so windy and twisty and there aren't good signs on how to stay on Beach Drive.  And then at the northern end, you have a choice between Beach Drive heading northwest or West Beach Drive heading northeast.


Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 05, 2014, 04:23:50 PM
QuoteIt is so windy and twisty

Which might be why they don't want traffic to use it and instead want them to access 16th sooner.

Of course, I've heard and read it mentioned/referenced that the NPS did *NOT* want the parkways under their jurisdiction to be used as commuter routes.  But that's effectively what they've become.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on October 05, 2014, 06:53:11 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 05, 2014, 04:23:50 PM
QuoteIt is so windy and twisty

Which might be why they don't want traffic to use it and instead want them to access 16th sooner.

Of course, I've heard and read it mentioned/referenced that the NPS did *NOT* want the parkways under their jurisdiction to be used as commuter routes.  But that's effectively what they've become.

With regard to B-W parkway and G.W. parkway these are absolutely commuter roads.  There aren't too many twists and these need to be treated as formal commuter roads with proper signage.  Ideally control cities, overhead signs, and maybe even a unique shield (if it can't get highway numbers).

With regard to Beach Drive, I agree that is shouldn't be a commuter route.  But there is no good way to go north of the city.  Many highway projects like I-95 and I-270 within the Beltway were cancelled.  The surface streets that remained were not upgraded to serve as proper commuter routes.  You can't drive down Georgia or 16th without hitting many red lights, often at crossings where there is little cross-traffic.  At least upgrade to actuated lights and some form of signal progression.

Since they don't, we're left with Beach Drive.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 05, 2014, 07:42:08 PM
I should have prefaced that by noting that a couple of the parkways...B-W Parkway and Suitland Parkway...were built specifically as military access roads which now happen to fall under NPS jurisdiction.

But G.W. Parkway was not built as a commuter road and commuting was never the intention for it...especially the older stretches south of Memorial Bridge.  Those of us who were on the Virginia side heard this repeatedly by transportation committees and NPS themselves.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 05, 2014, 09:08:46 PM
The crosswalks all over the DC segment of the GW Parkway simply underscore froggie's point.

On the other hand, it's all well and good to say "we didn't intend these as commuter roads," but at some point reality needs to be considered (such as how to make said crosswalks safer).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mtantillo on October 05, 2014, 09:52:07 PM
I commute on the reversible section of Rock Creek Parkway everyday. That road is a godsend, since it bypasses the congested "Old City" part of downtown. Yes, it is very confusing, but the vast majority of users are daily commuters who know where to go and what to do without signs. Outside of rush hours, GPS works pretty reliably well to avoid having to rely on the crappy signs.

Sure, the Parkways were not meant to be commuter roads, but they are. Rock Creek Parkway has been since the 1930's with its one-way traffic. Clearly, it has a positive impact on traffic, since one only needs to see what happens to traffic in all of NW when the Parkway floods after a rainstorm...basically all of NW is in solid gridlock. Outside of rush hours, it is a pretty pleasant drive, and there are lots of recreational users using the amenities, including some bicyclists that use the parkway itself.  As for me, I consider myself using the road for its intended purpose...a pretty "motor road" through a pretty park...just so happens that I typically enjoy the road and the park on my way to work.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 27, 2014, 08:26:22 PM
WTOP has a photo gallery of "Ghost roads: The forgotten and haunted roads of DC":
http://wtop.com/864/3729364/The-forgotten-and-haunted-roads-of-DC

Much to my dismay, the ever-popular sign assembly over outbound I-66 near the Kennedy Center is prominently featured and described in the context of "incongruous" signage with various "deficiencies." Hopefully this won't prompt DC to replace that assembly, but if you've wanted to visit or photograph it, it might be a good idea to do so sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Doctor Whom on November 30, 2014, 09:51:17 PM
Yesterday, I took I-295 northbound all the way.  Exits 1-3 had the same numbers, but Exit 4 had been renumbered as 5A (695 to 395), 5B (DC 295), and 5C (11th St SE and MLK Jr Ave).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 01, 2014, 02:40:24 AM
Quote from: Doctor Whom on November 30, 2014, 09:51:17 PM
Yesterday, I took I-295 northbound all the way.  Exits 1-3 had the same numbers, but Exit 4 had been renumbered as 5A (695 to 395), 5B (DC 295), and 5C (11th St SE and MLK Jr Ave).

Did you enter it from Md. 210 (Indian Head Highway)?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 04, 2014, 10:33:26 PM
Washington Post: Developer wants portion of I-395 in D.C. shut down to expedite construction project (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/developer-wants-portion-of-i-395-in-dc-shut-down-to-expedite-construction-project/2014/12/04/305c1294-7a49-11e4-9a27-6fdbc612bff8_story.html)

QuoteFederal authorities are considering a request to shut down two-thirds of a mile of Interstate 395 in the District – one of the busiest stretches of highway in the city – for more than a year so that a mammoth development project can be completed more quickly.

QuoteNew York-based Property Group Partners says that if the highway is closed between New York Avenue and D Street NW for 15 to 18 months, it could cut in half the construction time of a $200 million deck over the freeway's entrance that will support its 2.2 million-square-foot development there, Capitol Crossing.

QuoteWithout full access to that portion of the freeway, the platform project could take at least three years to complete, require loud work at night and potentially endanger workers, the developer says.

QuoteBut the proposal has raised concerns that it would cripple one of the Washington area's busiest commuter thoroughfares – which carries as many as 90,000 vehicles a day – and worsen the region's gridlock.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mtantillo on December 04, 2014, 11:04:18 PM
Okay, I'm confused...why is FHWA evaluating this request and not DDOT? I thought DDOT maintains the road? FHWA usually only gets involved if the "state" DOT asks for permission.

That concerns me, because DDOT is accountable to voters in the city, while FHWA is not.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on December 04, 2014, 11:13:29 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 04, 2014, 10:33:26 PM
Washington Post: Developer wants portion of I-395 in D.C. shut down to expedite construction project (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/developer-wants-portion-of-i-395-in-dc-shut-down-to-expedite-construction-project/2014/12/04/305c1294-7a49-11e4-9a27-6fdbc612bff8_story.html)

QuoteFederal authorities are considering a request to shut down two-thirds of a mile of Interstate 395 in the District – one of the busiest stretches of highway in the city – for more than a year so that a mammoth development project can be completed more quickly.

QuoteNew York-based Property Group Partners says that if the highway is closed between New York Avenue and D Street NW for 15 to 18 months, it could cut in half the construction time of a $200 million deck over the freeway's entrance that will support its 2.2 million-square-foot development there, Capitol Crossing.

The two-lane ramps to and from D Street are totally inadequate to serve as a temporary terminus for eight-lane I-395, both not enough capacity and also feeding into already-congested roads like 2nd St. NW.  And those ramps are in tunnels under the Labor Department building, so widening them is not a practical option.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on December 04, 2014, 11:57:13 PM
Quote from: mtantillo on December 04, 2014, 11:04:18 PM
Okay, I'm confused...why is FHWA evaluating this request and not DDOT? I thought DDOT maintains the road? FHWA usually only gets involved if the "state" DOT asks for permission.

That concerns me, because DDOT is accountable to voters in the city, while FHWA is not.

One possible reason is that the proposal would affect access to the Senate side of Capitol Hill, so there's a Federal interest separate from the local concerns of most importance to DDOT.  FHWA might for that reason may be quicker to say "no" than DDOT, though I hope both of them will quickly tell the developer to get lost, so any premature involvement by FHWA may end up a non-issue.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on December 06, 2014, 01:52:50 AM
Quote from: oscar on December 04, 2014, 11:57:13 PM
Quote from: mtantillo on December 04, 2014, 11:04:18 PM
Okay, I'm confused...why is FHWA evaluating this request and not DDOT? I thought DDOT maintains the road? FHWA usually only gets involved if the "state" DOT asks for permission.

That concerns me, because DDOT is accountable to voters in the city, while FHWA is not.

One possible reason is that the proposal would affect access to the Senate side of Capitol Hill, so there's a Federal interest separate from the local concerns of most importance to DDOT.  FHWA might for that reason may be quicker to say "no" than DDOT, though I hope both of them will quickly tell the developer to get lost, so any premature involvement by FHWA may end up a non-issue.
Does the connection of I-695 to DC 295 affect this at all? I mean, 295 can't handle the traffic it already has, but the developer might argue that there remains a full-freeway route from downtown to points north. Hopefully FHWA realizes that this ought to be a non-starter.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on December 06, 2014, 05:29:46 AM
Quote from: Alps on December 06, 2014, 01:52:50 AM
Does the connection of I-695 to DC 295 affect this at all? I mean, 295 can't handle the traffic it already has, but the developer might argue that there remains a full-freeway route from downtown to points north. Hopefully FHWA realizes that this ought to be a non-starter.

Nope.  Very little inter-regional traffic uses the part of I-395 that would be closed.  But there's still lots of traffic (commuters and otherwise) from the Virginia suburbs to the increasingly developed Union Station area where I once worked, and local traffic crossing D.C. to and from the New York Ave. corridor.  Traffic to the north side of Capitol Hill (Senate offices) would also be affected by added congestion at the D Street N.W. entrance/exit ramps it uses, even though those ramps would remain open.

The I-695/DC 295 connection is helpful, but the traffic using it had previously used mainly surface-street connections like S. Capitol St. and Pennsylvania Ave. SE, rather than I-395 to the slow and congested New York Ave. corridor.   
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on December 06, 2014, 06:03:20 PM
My "favorite" part of this "close part of I-395" story is this from wtop.com: Jeffrey Sussman, of Property Group Partners, tells the The Washington Post that drivers would adjust. "People find their way who drive because they like to drive. They like to figure out how to do it," he said.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on December 06, 2014, 06:38:24 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on December 06, 2014, 06:03:20 PM
My "favorite" part of this "close part of I-395" story is this from wtop.com: Jeffrey Sussman, of Property Group Partners, tells the The Washington Post that drivers would adjust. "People find their way who drive because they like to drive. They like to figure out how to do it," he said.

That inspired thoughts about how Mr. Sussman should be tortured.  "Boiling oil" and "hot asphalt" came first to mind, but I'm sure there are more roadgeek-appropriate punishments available, such as "sentenced to drive back and forth on the north side of I-495 between MD 190 and MD 650, non-stop, all of the last day of a holiday weekend". 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on December 07, 2014, 01:27:02 PM
Quote from: mtantillo on December 04, 2014, 11:04:18 PM
Okay, I'm confused...why is FHWA evaluating this request and not DDOT? I thought DDOT maintains the road? FHWA usually only gets involved if the "state" DOT asks for permission.

That concerns me, because DDOT is accountable to voters in the city, while FHWA is not.

The Washington Post's "Dr. Gridlock" has a column in today's WP, criticizing DDOT for punting the issue up to FHWA, and also for hiding behind FOIA on releasing information about the proposal and any referral to FHWA (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/district-department-of-transportation-takes-back-seat-on-proposed-i-395-shutdown/2014/12/06/931134d2-7b20-11e4-9a27-6fdbc612bff8_story.html?tid=hpModule_99d5f542-86a2-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394).

On the latter issue, it might be necessary to insist on the FOIA process for some of the information sought, to protect any business plans or other arguably confidential information furnished by the developer.  But that probably wouldn't preclude the rapid release of DDOT's referral (if any) to DDOT, if DDOT wanted to release it.

How typical is it for DDOT to insist on going through the FOIA process?  (Or does it have a well-stocked public reading room, for people to peruse non-confidential information?)  At the Federal agency I used to work for, we often got requests including information we were required by law to withhold, so those had to go through FOIA.  But otherwise, informal information requests often got the requester the desired information we could disclose, with greater speed and less hassle than going through FOIA.  We also had a public reading room, as I think is typical for Federal agencies, for people to get clearly non-confidential information without even having to make a request. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on December 07, 2014, 03:07:05 PM
Quote from: oscar on December 06, 2014, 06:38:24 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on December 06, 2014, 06:03:20 PM
My "favorite" part of this "close part of I-395" story is this from wtop.com: Jeffrey Sussman, of Property Group Partners, tells the The Washington Post that drivers would adjust. "People find their way who drive because they like to drive. They like to figure out how to do it," he said.

That inspired thoughts about how Mr. Sussman should be tortured.  "Boiling oil" and "hot asphalt" came first to mind, but I'm sure there are more roadgeek-appropriate punishments available, such as "sentenced to drive back and forth on the north side of I-495 between MD 190 and MD 650, non-stop, all of the last day of a holiday weekend". 
Better idea: figure out how many trips you could fit in an eight hour period of driving non stop along that route with no traffic and then make him drive that number of trips on the last day of a holiday weekend.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on December 07, 2014, 05:10:29 PM
Actually, my posting on WTOP.com was along the lines of "close the neighborhoods streets where the developer lives, because I assume he'll enjoy finding his way home without them."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 08, 2014, 10:34:35 PM
Quote from: oscar on December 07, 2014, 01:27:02 PM
Quote from: mtantillo on December 04, 2014, 11:04:18 PM
Okay, I'm confused...why is FHWA evaluating this request and not DDOT? I thought DDOT maintains the road? FHWA usually only gets involved if the "state" DOT asks for permission.

That concerns me, because DDOT is accountable to voters in the city, while FHWA is not.

The Washington Post's "Dr. Gridlock" has a column in today's WP, criticizing DDOT for punting the issue up to FHWA, and also for hiding behind FOIA on releasing information about the proposal and any referral to FHWA (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/district-department-of-transportation-takes-back-seat-on-proposed-i-395-shutdown/2014/12/06/931134d2-7b20-11e4-9a27-6fdbc612bff8_story.html?tid=hpModule_99d5f542-86a2-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394).

On the latter issue, it might be necessary to insist on the FOIA process for some of the information sought, to protect any business plans or other arguably confidential information furnished by the developer.  But that probably wouldn't preclude the rapid release of DDOT's referral (if any) to DDOT, if DDOT wanted to release it.

How typical is it for DDOT to insist on going through the FOIA process?  (Or does it have a well-stocked public reading room, for people to peruse non-confidential information?)  At the Federal agency I used to work for, we often got requests including information we were required by law to withhold, so those had to go through FOIA.  But otherwise, informal information requests often got the requester the desired information we could disclose, with greater speed and less hassle than going through FOIA.  We also had a public reading room, as I think is typical for Federal agencies, for people to get clearly non-confidential information without even having to make a request.

More fun via the Washington Post: Study needed to decide on request to close part of I-395 in D.C., federal officials say (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/study-needed-to-decide-on-request-to-close-part-of-i-395-in-dc-federal-officials-say/2014/12/08/30a633ae-7f00-11e4-8882-03cf08410beb_story.html)

QuoteFederal officials said Monday that they can't make a decision on a developer's request to shut down nearly a mile of Interstate 395 for more than a year until the D.C. Department of Transportation completes a comprehensive study of the potential traffic impact.

QuoteMeanwhile, many of the region's elected officials said the request should never have been sent without the city and the DDOT first briefing them on the plan.

Quote"This involves a major road in the District of Columbia, and, as it turns out, it will inconvenience in a mammoth way not only our residents, but residents throughout the region,"  said Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.), who learned about the request from news reports.

QuoteDDOT, jointly with developer Property Group Partners, sent a petition last month to the Federal Highway Administration, saying the closure of I-395 between New York Avenue and D Street NW "would do a great deal to improve traffic, safety and timing implications for the Capitol Crossing project."

QuoteIt could halve the construction time of a $200 million deck over the freeway's entrance that will support the company's 2.2 million-square-foot project, the developer said.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on December 09, 2014, 01:24:02 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 08, 2014, 10:34:35 PM
More fun via the Washington Post: Study needed to decide on request to close part of I-395 in D.C., federal officials say (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/study-needed-to-decide-on-request-to-close-part-of-i-395-in-dc-federal-officials-say/2014/12/08/30a633ae-7f00-11e4-8882-03cf08410beb_story.html)

QuoteFederal officials said Monday that they can't make a decision on a developer's request to shut down nearly a mile of Interstate 395 for more than a year until the D.C. Department of Transportation completes a comprehensive study of the potential traffic impact.

Per the article, FHWA noted that depending on the results of the initial environmental review, which would take up to a year, DDOT may have to conduct additional studies taking up to three years, including to work out how to manage the traffic diverted from I-395 if the segment north of D St. NW had a prolonged closure during construction of the deck over the freeway.

It sounds like getting approval for such a closure could easily take more time than the closure would save for building the deck over I-395.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on December 09, 2014, 01:19:24 PM
Yeesh.  Looks like the FHWA wants to actually consider this request seriously rather than a quick "you've got to be kidding me, how do you expect anyone to go along with this?".
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on December 09, 2014, 01:34:45 PM
If this were done, what sort of traffic modifications would you put in place?

I would do the following:

VMS messaging about the closure at the approaches to the following interchanges: 95/495 College Park, 95/BW Pkwy, 95/50, 95/495 Springfield.

Detour signs at the 50/BW pkwy interchange adn the 395/695 interchange to recommend that people who are at that point should stay on 695 for the connection and not use New York Ave.

I would close the northbound on-ramp to I395 from D St SW.  The remaining three lanes will have to come together into two lanes of traffic before entering the tunnel.  All two lanes will exit at D St NW.

The ramp to C St NW will still be there.  Traffic to Union Station should go this way.  C St should be one-way eastbound all the way to NJ Ave.

Second Street from D St NW should be three lanes of traffic at all times.  Impose parking restrictions and spot widenings as necessary.

Similar treatment for 4th St southbound between NY and Mass Ave and 3rd St southbound from Mass to D.





Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on December 09, 2014, 01:40:32 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 09, 2014, 01:19:24 PM
Yeesh.  Looks like the FHWA wants to actually consider this request seriously rather than a quick "you've got to be kidding me, how do you expect anyone to go along with this?".

Actually, looks more to me like FHWA telling the developer it could take so long to get approval for a highway closure, the developer and the city would probably save a lot of time by going ahead with building the deck without a closure.  That's a nice way of telling the developer to get lost, but with less risk of drawing a lawsuit from the developer.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 09, 2014, 01:42:04 PM
Today the Post is reporting the mayor's office is not willing to close the highway. The mayor-elect concurs.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 09, 2014, 04:15:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 09, 2014, 01:42:04 PM
Today the Post is reporting the mayor's office is not willing to close the highway. The mayor-elect concurs.

I wonder if the proponents of this were not counting on the "tear down the freeway" crowd to come to their defense for some reason?

Not so long ago, there were people touting a proposal to permanently close the entire length of the so-called Center Leg Freeway (in other words, I-395 from the S.E./S.W. Freeway all the way to U.S. 50 (New York Avenue, N.W.) - including the Third Street Tunnel).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on December 09, 2014, 07:29:15 PM
Quote from: oscar on December 09, 2014, 01:40:32 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 09, 2014, 01:19:24 PM
Yeesh.  Looks like the FHWA wants to actually consider this request seriously rather than a quick "you've got to be kidding me, how do you expect anyone to go along with this?".

Actually, looks more to me like FHWA telling the developer it could take so long to get approval for a highway closure, the developer and the city would probably save a lot of time by going ahead with building the deck without a closure.  That's a nice way of telling the developer to get lost, but with less risk of drawing a lawsuit from the developer.
Actually, shutting down an Interstate should always be backed up by a comprehensive traffic study. Sounds like they came to FHWA way too soon.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 10, 2014, 12:23:29 AM
Quote from: Alps on December 09, 2014, 07:29:15 PM
Actually, shutting down an Interstate should always be backed up by a comprehensive traffic study. Sounds like they came to FHWA way too soon.

Agreed.

Looks like it was much about nothing.  The sitting Mayor of the District of Columbia and the Mayor-Elect have both said it is not going to happen.

D.C. dropping request to shut part of I-395 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/dc-dropping-to-closure-portion-of-i-395/2014/12/09/133d5be8-7fd3-11e4-8882-03cf08410beb_story.html)

QuoteAmid growing pressure, D.C. transportation officials said Tuesday that they are dropping a request to shut a busy stretch of Interstate 395 to expedite a major construction project.

Quote"The mayor has made a statement,"  said Matthew Brown, the city's transportation director, citing Mayor Vincent C. Gray's directive Tuesday that the agency pull the plan to close nearly a mile of freeway for the Capitol Crossing project.

QuoteDDOT continues to support closing one of the highway's ramps to facilitate the safe and timely construction of the $1.5 billion project at the entrance to I-395, Brown said.

QuoteLast week's news that DDOT asked the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) for guidance on how to proceed with shutting down a major commuter thoroughfare that carries 90,000 vehicles a day drew strong criticism from commuters and elected officials, including members of the region's congressional delegations.

QuoteThe city had remained quiet on the proposal, saying that DDOT's only role was to forward the request to federal officials, but Brown broke the silence Tuesday at a news event, where he said the agency's communications with FHWA were only an effort to determine "what would the process be"  for closing the interstate.

Quote"It's obviously a huge ask,"  Brown said. "I didn't see anything wrong with at least exploring options."

QuoteIn a Dec. 5 notice to DDOT, federal officials said they could not consider the request until DDOT conducted various studies on the impact of the closure – studies that could take months if not years.

QuoteBut on Tuesday morning, Gray (D) declared that the shutdown would not happen.

Quote"Closing 395 is a non-starter for Mayor Gray,"  said Doxie McCoy, a spokeswoman for the mayor. "Upon reviewing the matter, he has made his views very clear – we will not be closing 395, and the administration will inform the feds of that."

QuoteAnd, during a news conference Tuesday by Mayor-elect Muriel E. Bowser (D), where she introduced her new city administrator, Alexandria City Manager Rashad Young, she also spoke against the idea.

Washington Post opinion: Closing I-395 for a developer would have upended travel for tens of thousands (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/closing-i-395-for-a-developer-would-unnecessarily-upend-travel-for-tens-of-thousands/2014/12/09/49b4c79a-7fc1-11e4-8882-03cf08410beb_story.html)

QuoteANYONE WHO has lived through a remodeling project knows that a certain amount of inconvenience comes with the territory. But a developer's proposal to shut down part of a vital highway in the District to expedite construction of a giant commercial project would have upended – not just inconvenienced – daily travel for tens of thousands of drivers. We can't imagine how city officials could have even entertained the idea, and we are happy to hear that they have now closed the door on it.

QuoteD.C. transportation officials broached with the Federal Highway Administration the possibility of closing Interstate 395 between New York Avenue and D Street NW for 15 to 18 months. The proposal, disclosed by The Post's Luz Lazo and Jonathan O'Connell, came at the behest of the New York-based company behind a $1.5 billion mixed-use development that will be built over the highway. Closing the interstate, the developer argued, would have sliced time and cost off the project and produced safer construction conditions for ­workers.

QuoteThere is no questioning the importance of this project to the city. It is estimated to eventually generate $30 million annually in property taxes, and by connecting F Street and G streets NW, the project would go a long way toward rectifying the damage done by federal highway planners when they cut a gash through the central city. But closing this main north-south thoroughfare would have displaced more than 90,000 cars a day. Contrary to the developer's glib assurance that people like to drive and figure out alternative roads, the proposed closure would have created a rippling effect of significant problems for the region's transportation network. "Calamitous impacts"  was the apt characterization by Rep. Gerald E. Connolly (D-Va.).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on December 10, 2014, 03:45:30 PM
I still think they could do weekend closures.  MnDOT does those often, and it doesn't need the hard-core studying from FHWA that a longer-term closure requires.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mtantillo on December 10, 2014, 04:52:54 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 10, 2014, 03:45:30 PM
I still think they could do weekend closures.  MnDOT does those often, and it doesn't need the hard-core studying from FHWA that a longer-term closure requires.


I'm sure there will be plenty of those. On weekends, the route is a lot less necessary than on weekday commuter periods.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 10, 2014, 10:32:48 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 09, 2014, 05:53:48 AM
Charles Severance indicted on murder charges (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/charles-severance-indicted-on-murder-charges/2014/09/08/1124c952-377d-11e4-8601-97ba88884ffd_story.html)

QuoteA man who for months has been the focus of police investigations into three high-profile slayings in Alexandria has been indicted on murder charges, prosecutors said.

QuoteCharles Severance, 53, is in jail in Loudoun County awaiting trial on a gun possession charge. The Alexandria indictment contains ten charges, including two charges of capital murder and one charge of first-degree murder in the deaths of Ruthanne Lodato, Ronald Kirby and Nancy Dunning.

Charles Severance, accused of three Alexandria killings, to appear in court (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/charles-severance-accused-of-three-alexandria-killings-to-appear-in-court/2014/12/10/971a1c52-80a1-11e4-9f38-95a187e4c1f7_story.html)

QuoteThe man accused of fatally shooting three prominent Alexandria residents over the past decade – killings that prosecutors say were motivated by his hatred of the city's "enforcement class"  – is scheduled to appear in court Thursday as attorneys discuss his competency to stand trial.

QuoteIt is unclear what might happen at the hearing in Alexandria Circuit Court for 54-year-old Charles Severance, though defense attorneys have requested a discussion about evaluating him for competency. They asked to withdraw, at least temporarily, their other legal salvos in the case – which included an effort to have the case dismissed entirely and a bid to have a separate trial for one of the murders of which Severance is accused.

QuoteSeverance is charged in the February slaying of music teacher Ruthanne Lodato, the November 2013 fatal shooting of regional transportation planner Ronald Kirby and the 2003 killing of real estate agent Nancy Dunning. Authorities have said all three were gunned down in daylight in their homes, within two miles of one another, by a killer who left no sign of forced entry.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 10, 2014, 10:34:50 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 10, 2014, 03:45:30 PM
I still think they could do weekend closures.  MnDOT does those often, and it doesn't need the hard-core studying from FHWA that a longer-term closure requires.

Much of the work for Transurban 95 Express Lanes was done over weekends. 

Wonder if the staging required to be set-up and taken-down for weekend closures might be too much (in terms of labor required for same)?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on December 11, 2014, 09:06:26 AM
Far less than for ongoing daytime lane closures, and they get a longer window to get stuff done.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2014, 09:32:11 AM
Dr. Gridlock reports DC is changing the way you pay for on-street parking in the area around Verizon Center (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2014/12/17/d-c-plans-experiment-for-downtown-parking/). Instead of the existing "pay-and-display" meters, they're going to the system where you punch in a space number at the meter. As I said in my comment there, I don't care for that style because it limits the number of spaces per block, similar to how the old single-space meters restricted things. I like the idea with the pay-and-display system that if your vehicle fits, you can park.

What will be more interesting is to see how people respond to the new parking signs. The one on the left looks similar to the ones a blogger was suggesting in New York:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.washingtonpost.com%2Fblogs%2Fdr-gridlock%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F12%2FParking-rules-sign-DDOT.jpg&hash=e9dea7d2a992628377a6b12e3726c4b7a714a620)  (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.washingtonpost.com%2Fblogs%2Fdr-gridlock%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F12%2FPay-by-space-image-ddot.jpg&hash=fd379172f5daaac72646ee40d94225741d3a8c3c)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on December 18, 2014, 11:12:27 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2014, 09:32:11 AM
Instead of the existing "pay-and-display" meters, they're going to the system where you punch in a space number at the meter. As I said in my comment there, I don't care for that style because it limits the number of spaces per block, similar to how the old single-space meters restricted things. I like the idea with the pay-and-display system that if your vehicle fits, you can park.

I basically agree.  There are enough tiny cars in our area, like the Smart cars, that can take advantage of small "make your own" spaces and should be encouraged to do so.

Maybe parts of the reasoning are that:

-- the city doesn't have to maintain printers for pay-and-display stubs

-- people don't have to go back to their cars to place the stubs on their dashboards (of course, some people will have to make that trek anyway, if they need to use the pay box rather than a smartphone, and have forgotten or are unsure about their space number).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2014, 11:22:15 AM
Those two reasons crossed my mind, as did the additional one that with no printed receipts, there's less temptation for someone to break into your car to steal the receipt (I have not heard of this actually happening, but I would not be surprised to hear it has occurred somewhere, as idiotic as it is). One downside is if you save the receipts for tax purposes if you parked for business reasons (I saved an Arlington County pay-and-display slip last week for precisely that reason).

The cynic in me says that with no printed receipt, and no meter next to your car, it becomes harder for you to prove you paid when you're issued a wrongful ticket. I don't park at the meters all that often except when I go to Nationals games, but when I do park at a meter I use the Parkmobile app. Yes, it costs an extra 45¢ (flat fee regardless of length of time parked), but I get receipts via e-mail and text message and there's another one I can print out from their website. I've never had a problem when I've used Parkmobile, but I've heard of people who paid that way who were given tickets anyway because the single-space meter was flashing "expired" and the meter maid issued a ticket. That's not supposed to happen–they say that when the meter maid runs your plate number on the ticket-printing device, it'll say you paid–and I have no idea whether the tickets were due to user error or fraud by the meter maids. Neither scenario would surprise me in DC.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 14, 2015, 01:20:36 PM
Forgot to mention this yesterday: Coming back from Monday night's Caps game, I noted the BGSs on eastbound I-695 approaching the 11th Street Bridge now mention Southeast Boulevard. I was a bit surprised because I hadn't heard anything about it opening, but it turns out it did indeed open on December 22 (http://www.jdland.com/dc/pastnews.cfm?nearsecat=seblvd). For those unfamiliar, this is the new street that replaces the orphaned former segment of I-295 between the 11th Street Bridge and Barney Circle. Seems the tunnel to the RFK Stadium Access Road will still be available but isn't open yet.

If/when I get the chance to check it out, I'll upload some video. Won't be on the way home from tonight's game since puck drop is an hour later than usual (8:00 PM).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on January 14, 2015, 02:14:27 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 14, 2015, 01:20:36 PM
Forgot to mention this yesterday: Coming back from Monday night's Caps game, I noted the BGSs on eastbound I-695 approaching the 11th Street Bridge now mention Southeast Boulevard. I was a bit surprised because I hadn't heard anything about it opening, but it turns out it did indeed open on December 22 (http://www.jdland.com/dc/pastnews.cfm?nearsecat=seblvd). For those unfamiliar, this is the new street that replaces the orphaned former segment of I-295 between the 11th Street Bridge and Barney Circle. Seems the tunnel to the RFK Stadium Access Road will still be available but isn't open yet.

If/when I get the chance to check it out, I'll upload some video. Won't be on the way home from tonight's game since puck drop is an hour later than usual (8:00 PM).

I drove Southeast Blvd. eastbound on Christmas day.  So unremarkable I forgot to mention it here.  It seemed to mostly use old Southeast Freeway pavement, and so far is not otherwise much different from the old freeway, except for the new at-grade intersection at 11th St. SE (under the bridge approaches).  Still a lot of work underway to do something in the wide median left over after removal of the former connector between the old 11th St. Bridge and the old eastern Southeast Freeway segment.

The access to RFK Stadium may be intact, but I'm not sure.  The old ramp to EB Pennsylvania Ave. is still there, and I used it to connect back (via DC 295) to I-695, I-395, and the express lanes down to Garrisonville VA. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 14, 2015, 02:45:49 PM
My comment about the RFK access is based on what is stated in the JDLand blog post I linked (click the words "but it turns out it did indeed open on December 22").

I assume there's no particular rush to open the RFK access because DC United's first home game isn't until March 4 and it's a CONCACAF Champions League game, meaning it's likely to draw a smaller crowd than the MLS opener a few days later.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 23, 2015, 04:48:10 PM
I drove down Southeast Boulevard earlier this afternoon and I certainly have to agree with Oscar....easily the least interesting "new road" I've ever driven. Basically no real difference from the old road other than a lower speed limit and an at-grade intersection at the west end.

It definitely appears the RFK access will be preserved. There's a lane striped as an exit lane for the tunnel, complete with solid line and short skips, and it was blocked off with barrels because the tunnel is jammed full of construction equipment (presumably to get it all out of the forecast bad weather this weekend). Looking at that mess, I kind of doubt it'll be open by the time United start their season, but then fans ought to be used to finding other routes after the past year or two.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 07, 2015, 07:55:48 PM
WTOP Radio: Confusion persists for Southeast-Southwest Freeway drivers (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2015/02/confusion-persists-southeast-southwest-freeway-drivers/)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwtop.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F02%2Froads_freewayexits1.jpg&hash=5aacd4573782408d35a990a99e906dfa05afa036)

QuoteThe ever-vexing route through Washington known as the Southeast-Southwest Freeway has become even more confusing for downtown drivers. Along with the resurrection of Interstate 695, a previously hidden designation for the eastern half of the freeway, new signs for eastbound exits now appear to contradict one another.

QuoteThe guide signs above the freeway now show the exit for C Street SW/U.S. Capitol as both Exit 2B and Exit 6. This portion of the freeway is officially Interstate 395 North. However, the exit for Potomac Park beyond the 14th Street Bridge is also signed as Exit 2. The new signs were installed about two months ago.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on February 07, 2015, 07:57:41 PM
Meh, New York's had conflicting exit numbers on the Cross-Bronx for years.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 07, 2015, 10:51:24 PM
It's funny, Dave Dildine (author of that article) interviewed me over the phone yesterday about the ramp from the Ninth Street Tunnel to northbound (really east at that point) I-395. He's doing a story on the worst merges in the DC area. Guess it fits right in with this story.

I notice he doesn't mention how for so many years, the sign for the C Street exit had you get in the far left lane when you needed to be in the second lane from the right.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2015, 10:06:06 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 07, 2015, 10:51:24 PM
It's funny, Dave Dildine (author of that article) interviewed me over the phone yesterday about the ramp from the Ninth Street Tunnel to northbound (really east at that point) I-395. He's doing a story on the worst merges in the DC area. Guess it fits right in with this story.

I notice he doesn't mention how for so many years, the sign for the C Street exit had you get in the far left lane when you needed to be in the second lane from the right.

The worst merges (IMO) in the region used to be from U.S. 50 (John Hanson Highway) eastbound to Md. 201 (Kenilworth Avenue) southbound; from Outer Loop I-495 to westbound Va. 267 (Dulles Toll Road) and the miserable lane drop on southbound I-95 approaching and passing Va. 286 (Fairfax County Parkway, f/k/a 7100).  All have been fixed for several years now by adding capacity on a relatively small scale.

My candidates for worst merges (no particular order) these days are:

- Northbound I-395 approaching and passing the merge with U.S. 1 and Va. 110 (Jefferson Davis Highway);
- I-495 at the American Legion Bridge, where there are lane drops in both directions at both ends of the span;
- Eastbound I-66 passing the merge with the Dulles Connector Road, and passing the lane drop at U.S. 29 (Lee Highway) at Exit 69 and continuing until past the entrance ramp from North Sycamore Street;
- Inner Loop I-495 passing the south end of I-270 at Md. 355 (Rockville Pike), where Inner Loop traffic has to deal with a lane drop;
- Southbound I-395 in the Va. 236 (Duke Street) interchange;
- Outer Loop I-495 passing I-95, and continuing past Md. 650 (New Hampshire Avenue) and continued bonus misery of Outer Loop I-495 passing U.S. 29 (Colesville Road);
- Southbound D.C. 295 approaching and passing East Capitol Street (yes, there is a lane drop);
- Northbound D.C. 295 approaching and passing Pennsylvania Avenue, S.E. (also a lane drop);
- Northbound I-395 entering the Third Street Tunnel, where the (lightly-used) exit ramp to C Street, S.W./Washington Avenue, S.W./Independence Avenue, S.W. and The House is effective a lane drop (and rewards aggressive drivers that use the left lane leading to this ramp to the last minute, then jam into the lane that heads for the tunnel portal);
- Eastbound U.S. 50 passing the entrance ramp from northbound Md. 201;
- Westbound U.S. 50 exiting to Outer Loop I-95/I-495 (this ramp is only one lane - it starts as two, but the right lane drops to provide access to the New Carrollton rail station); and
- Northbound I-270 approaching and passing Md. 121 (Clarksburg Road), where there is ... a lane drop.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on February 08, 2015, 04:15:54 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2015, 10:06:06 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 07, 2015, 10:51:24 PM
It's funny, Dave Dildine (author of that article) interviewed me over the phone yesterday about the ramp from the Ninth Street Tunnel to northbound (really east at that point) I-395. He's doing a story on the worst merges in the DC area. Guess it fits right in with this story.

I notice he doesn't mention how for so many years, the sign for the C Street exit had you get in the far left lane when you needed to be in the second lane from the right.

The worst merges (IMO) in the region used to be from U.S. 50 (John Hanson Highway) eastbound to Md. 201 (Kenilworth Avenue) southbound; from Outer Loop I-495 to westbound Va. 267 (Dulles Toll Road) and the miserable lane drop on southbound I-95 approaching and passing Va. 286 (Fairfax County Parkway, f/k/a 7100).  All have been fixed for several years now by adding capacity on a relatively small scale.

My candidates for worst merges (no particular order) these days are:

- Northbound I-395 approaching and passing the merge with U.S. 1 and Va. 110 (Jefferson Davis Highway);
- I-495 at the American Legion Bridge, where there are lane drops in both directions at both ends of the span;
- Eastbound I-66 passing the merge with the Dulles Connector Road, and passing the lane drop at U.S. 29 (Lee Highway) at Exit 69 and continuing until past the entrance ramp from North Sycamore Street;
- Inner Loop I-495 passing the south end of I-270 at Md. 355 (Rockville Pike), where Inner Loop traffic has to deal with a lane drop;
- Southbound I-395 in the Va. 236 (Duke Street) interchange;
- Outer Loop I-495 passing I-95, and continuing past Md. 650 (New Hampshire Avenue) and continued bonus misery of Outer Loop I-495 passing U.S. 29 (Colesville Road);
- Southbound D.C. 295 approaching and passing East Capitol Street (yes, there is a lane drop);
- Northbound D.C. 295 approaching and passing Pennsylvania Avenue, S.E. (also a lane drop);
- Northbound I-395 entering the Third Street Tunnel, where the (lightly-used) exit ramp to C Street, S.W./Washington Avenue, S.W./Independence Avenue, S.W. and The House is effective a lane drop (and rewards aggressive drivers that use the left lane leading to this ramp to the last minute, then jam into the lane that heads for the tunnel portal);
- Eastbound U.S. 50 passing the entrance ramp from northbound Md. 201;
- Westbound U.S. 50 exiting to Outer Loop I-95/I-495 (this ramp is only one lane - it starts as two, but the right lane drops to provide access to the New Carrollton rail station); and
- Northbound I-270 approaching and passing Md. 121 (Clarksburg Road), where there is ... a lane drop.

It seems to me that what 1995hoo and what CPZ are referring to are two separate definitions of worst merges.  CPZ's list are definitely the most traffic laden merges, the merges that cause slowdowns in otherwise free-flowing highways even at times when the road isn't terribly busy.

But the merge from the 9th street tunnel to the I-395 north (heading to 695) is downright dangerous.  A merge in from the left with very little room.  I've had the misfortune of merging in from there, and it was not pleasant.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2015, 07:09:08 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 08, 2015, 04:15:54 PM
It seems to me that what 1995hoo and what CPZ are referring to are two separate definitions of worst merges.  CPZ's list are definitely the most traffic laden merges, the merges that cause slowdowns in otherwise free-flowing highways even at times when the road isn't terribly busy.

But the merge from the 9th street tunnel to the I-395 north (heading to 695) is downright dangerous.  A merge in from the left with very little room.  I've had the misfortune of merging in from there, and it was not pleasant.

Agreed.  The one from 9th Street, S.W. to 395 is terrible.  Left-side merge with no merge/transition lane at all. I go out of my way to avoid it. 

But if you don't like that one, there's one I like even less, also a left-side merge with no place to merge or accelerate - from Benning Road, N.E. to northbound D.C. 295 (GSV here (http://goo.gl/maps/AmGhW)).

This one is more-dangerous (IMO) because speeds of northbound traffic tend to be higher here.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on February 09, 2015, 06:56:05 AM
Quote from: mrsman on February 08, 2015, 04:15:54 PM
But the merge from the 9th street tunnel to the I-395 north (heading to 695) is downright dangerous.  A merge in from the left with very little room.  I've had the misfortune of merging in from there, and it was not pleasant.

What's worse is that it's an unwarned inside merge, where the innermost lane on the on-ramp merges immediately into the left lane of the mainline.  Usually, lane drops for entering traffic are for the outermost lane, so while on-ramp traffic has to watch for on-ramp lanes to merge into one, nothing entering from the on-ramps has to immediately merge into the mainline.

Inside merges are not uncommon in other regions --  I've seen them in Chicago, among other places. But they're dangerous in areas like ours where they are rare, and surprise drivers who aren't expecting them. 

There could be at least warning signs, but the more straightforward fix would be to restripe the two on-ramp lanes so they merge before they join the mainline,
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on February 09, 2015, 10:02:48 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2015, 07:09:08 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 08, 2015, 04:15:54 PM
It seems to me that what 1995hoo and what CPZ are referring to are two separate definitions of worst merges.  CPZ's list are definitely the most traffic laden merges, the merges that cause slowdowns in otherwise free-flowing highways even at times when the road isn't terribly busy.

But the merge from the 9th street tunnel to the I-395 north (heading to 695) is downright dangerous.  A merge in from the left with very little room.  I've had the misfortune of merging in from there, and it was not pleasant.

Agreed.  The one from 9th Street, S.W. to 395 is terrible.  Left-side merge with no merge/transition lane at all. I go out of my way to avoid it. 

But if you don't like that one, there's one I like even less, also a left-side merge with no place to merge or accelerate - from Benning Road, N.E. to northbound D.C. 295 (GSV here (http://goo.gl/maps/AmGhW).

This one is more-dangerous (IMO) because speeds of northbound traffic tend to be higher here.

I work a few blocks from the north end of the 9th street tunnel, but rarely drive there as I take Metro to work.  12th and 9th tunnels are like mini-freeways and help traffic heading to the part of Downtown along Constitution and north avoid Independence Ave and other cross-streets.  Arguably, they are the main gateways to this central part of Downtown.  It seems odd to me that given the traffic loads on the tunnels, that they have such a poorly designed freeway entrance to 395 north.  (The other ramps 9th to 395 south and the ramps to the 12th st tunnel are much better and easier.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 09, 2015, 10:22:00 AM
Quote from: mrsman on February 09, 2015, 10:02:48 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2015, 07:09:08 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 08, 2015, 04:15:54 PM
It seems to me that what 1995hoo and what CPZ are referring to are two separate definitions of worst merges.  CPZ's list are definitely the most traffic laden merges, the merges that cause slowdowns in otherwise free-flowing highways even at times when the road isn't terribly busy.

But the merge from the 9th street tunnel to the I-395 north (heading to 695) is downright dangerous.  A merge in from the left with very little room.  I've had the misfortune of merging in from there, and it was not pleasant.

Agreed.  The one from 9th Street, S.W. to 395 is terrible.  Left-side merge with no merge/transition lane at all. I go out of my way to avoid it. 

But if you don't like that one, there's one I like even less, also a left-side merge with no place to merge or accelerate - from Benning Road, N.E. to northbound D.C. 295 (GSV here (http://goo.gl/maps/AmGhW).

This one is more-dangerous (IMO) because speeds of northbound traffic tend to be higher here.

I work a few blocks from the north end of the 9th street tunnel, but rarely drive there as I take Metro to work.  12th and 9th tunnels are like mini-freeways and help traffic heading to the part of Downtown along Constitution and north avoid Independence Ave and other cross-streets.  Arguably, they are the main gateways to this central part of Downtown.  It seems odd to me that given the traffic loads on the tunnels, that they have such a poorly designed freeway entrance to 395 north.  (The other ramps 9th to 395 south and the ramps to the 12th st tunnel are much better and easier.)

It's a relic of the 1950s/1960s. Old, outdated highway design that would be difficult (at best) to improve given space constraints coupled with the disruption caused by construction, further coupled with the difficulty posed by those townhouses they built on the south side of the highway right there. BTW, after Friday's nights Caps—Ducks game it was worse than usual–they had a bunch of construction cones/barrels narrowing the ramp to allow for some kind of work on the right side. Made the merge that much worse.

Look at other highways built in the same time period, or earlier, and you'll see what we now recognize as design deficiencies there as well. Some of New York City's highways are great examples.


For those unfamiliar, here's the DC merge we are discussing (sped up to 250% of actual speed). In this particular clip I had an easy time of it, but you can see why this is not an easy spot. Traffic is usually quite heavy and quite fast and people around here generally do not seem to believe in moving over to make it easier for people to enter the highway.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NJRoadfan on February 09, 2015, 06:35:19 PM
Sounds like the mid-span entrances of the Pulaski Skyway here in NJ. Getting on the highway there will put some hair on your chest.

https://goo.gl/maps/wUvtG

Once upon a time this was even a blind merge, they finally took down the barrier to improve sight lines.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 13, 2015, 03:29:22 PM
Some recent images of D.C. 295 and I-695 in D.C. on Facebook (no account required) here (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10204813782456510.1073741860.1596953667&type=1&l=af12029523).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 13, 2015, 03:30:37 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on February 09, 2015, 06:35:19 PM
Sounds like the mid-span entrances of the Pulaski Skyway here in NJ. Getting on the highway there will put some hair on your chest.

https://goo.gl/maps/wUvtG

Once upon a time this was even a blind merge, they finally took down the barrier to improve sight lines.

Yeah, those are nasty.  Definitely similar to the left-side merges onto D.C. 295 and I-395.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on February 13, 2015, 03:41:57 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 13, 2015, 03:30:37 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on February 09, 2015, 06:35:19 PM
Sounds like the mid-span entrances of the Pulaski Skyway here in NJ. Getting on the highway there will put some hair on your chest.

https://goo.gl/maps/wUvtG

Once upon a time this was even a blind merge, they finally took down the barrier to improve sight lines.

Yeah, those are nasty.  Definitely similar to the left-side merges onto D.C. 295 and I-395.

I'm lucky that I'm usually on the Pulaski only at off-peak times when I visit family in the area.  Southbound, I make note to be in the left lane to avoid traffic coming from the extremely heavy merge from Tonnelle Ave and then shift to the right to avoid even the possibility of dealing with somebody entering from the two left ramps.

As a follow-up question (to anyone reading this thread) do you think that if there is no feasible way to improve the safety of these types of on-ramps that they should be closed and traffic should just find a different way onto the expressway?

I believe that they should close the dangerous on-ramps because safety comes first.  Yes, drivers may have to go quite a bit out of their way, but it's important.

For Downtown DC, if the ramp were closed, then drivers would just have to head onto 7th Street towards the freeway.

For Benning Rd, if that ramp were closed, then just head over to East Capitol Street.

For our friends in NJ, use Truck 1-9 to the nearest entrance.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NJRoadfan on February 14, 2015, 12:27:54 AM
Or narrow the thru highway down a lane to eliminate the left merge as was done on US-1 in NJ: https://goo.gl/maps/YgjBU
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on February 15, 2015, 08:06:46 AM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on February 14, 2015, 12:27:54 AM
Or narrow the thru highway down a lane to eliminate the left merge as was done on US-1 in NJ: https://goo.gl/maps/YgjBU

To the extent that traffic can take it, that sounds like a good option, but I don't know how possible that is in the examples listed above.

I've felt that it should be done along I-395 from 9th Street.  If I-395 were narrowed on the Downtown approach, after the 12th Street exit, from 3 to 2 lanes (most likely by forcing the 3rd lane off at Maine Ave), then the entrances from Maine Ave and 9th Street that come in from the left will each have their own lane.  Again, not sure what such a lane drop will do with regard to traffic, but keep in mind that if one views the I-395 as being primarily to serve Downtown, a lot of people will be getting off at these exits anyway.

Another bad set of left on-ramps can be found in Chicago in the West Loop along I-90/94.  They've recently removed some of the on=ramps and made them somewhat longer, but their still terrible.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 02, 2015, 09:26:26 AM
Can you guys think of any way for a tractor-trailer legally to access I-66 past the Kennedy Center? I was just on there earlier this morning going from Memorial Bridge to the Watergate (can't use Rock Creek Parkway due to rush hour traffic pattern) and there was an enormous tractor-trailer parked on the shoulder between Ohio Drive and the merge coming from the inbound Roosevelt Bridge.

Of course he could have been there illegally too. I'm trying to figure out what route he must have used, assuming he wasn't on the Roosevelt Bridge since large trucks of his size aren't allowed on any of the roads leading to it from Virginia.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NE2 on March 02, 2015, 01:02:04 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 02, 2015, 09:26:26 AM
Can you guys think of any way for a tractor-trailer legally to access I-66 past the Kennedy Center?
Get into the left lane of I-66 west at its beginning, miss the faded ALL TRUCKS pointing onto the E Street Expressway, then notice the ALL TRUCKS pointing onto the U-turn before it becomes Ohio Drive. The latter sign might not be necessary if the former restriction were posted better.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mergingtraffic on March 02, 2015, 05:46:06 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 13, 2015, 03:41:57 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 13, 2015, 03:30:37 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on February 09, 2015, 06:35:19 PM
Sounds like the mid-span entrances of the Pulaski Skyway here in NJ. Getting on the highway there will put some hair on your chest.

https://goo.gl/maps/wUvtG

Once upon a time this was even a blind merge, they finally took down the barrier to improve sight lines.

Yeah, those are nasty.  Definitely similar to the left-side merges onto D.C. 295 and I-395.

I'm lucky that I'm usually on the Pulaski only at off-peak times when I visit family in the area.  Southbound, I make note to be in the left lane to avoid traffic coming from the extremely heavy merge from Tonnelle Ave and then shift to the right to avoid even the possibility of dealing with somebody entering from the two left ramps.

As a follow-up question (to anyone reading this thread) do you think that if there is no feasible way to improve the safety of these types of on-ramps that they should be closed and traffic should just find a different way onto the expressway?

I believe that they should close the dangerous on-ramps because safety comes first.  Yes, drivers may have to go quite a bit out of their way, but it's important.

For Downtown DC, if the ramp were closed, then drivers would just have to head onto 7th Street towards the freeway.

For Benning Rd, if that ramp were closed, then just head over to East Capitol Street.

For our friends in NJ, use Truck 1-9 to the nearest entrance.

Ha! Left on-ramps you ask?  Try the FDR NB near 155th st. 
PS. I thought CT's Merritt Parkway was bad, but that's a marvel compared to some of NYC parkways.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 22, 2015, 09:34:10 PM
WTOP Radio: Police announce new speed camera locations rolling out in D.C. (http://wtop.com/dc/2015/03/police-announce-new-speed-camera-locations-rolling-out-in-d-c/)

QuoteThe new photo enforcement locations are as follows:


  • 6100 block of Eastern Ave NE southeastbound, Speed: 25 mph
  • 3200 block of Fort Lincoln Dr NE southbound, Speed: 25 mph
  • 1900 block of Branch Ave SE southbound, Speed: 25 mph
  • 1400 block of South Capitol St SE northbound, Speed: 25 mph
  • 1400 block of South Capitol St SW southbound, Speed: 25 mph
  • 600 blk of Kenilworth Ave NE southbound, Speed: 25 mph
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 22, 2015, 09:35:34 PM
Quote

  • 600 blk of Kenilworth Ave NE southbound, Speed: 25 mph

I presume this is on the frontage road on southbound D.C. 295, not the mainline.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 22, 2015, 09:38:48 PM
1400 block of South Capitol Street? Unless I'm mistaken, that's right outside the ballpark. High pedestrian traffic area. Also an area with fairly high vehicle speeds.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on March 23, 2015, 11:15:20 AM
Correct...that's the block between O and P.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 23, 2015, 12:25:58 PM
I'll keep my eyes peeled for it when I go down there this week or next week for my annual "scout out the parking to see if where I park for games is still legal" trip. The place where I park was still OK for the Winter Classic, but I always like to verify in advance of the season so I don't get a nasty surprise on Opening Day!

This particular camera location should rake in a lot of money until people get used to it being there. It's not unusual to see people going through there at 45—50 mph. If indeed the new DC United stadium gets built in Buzzard Point, there will be that much more pedestrian traffic crossing South Capitol Street there because the Navy Yard Metro is up at Half and M SE. I'm usually not thrilled by the concept of speed cameras, especially when they're used to enforce ludicrously low speed limits (the ones on I-295 near Blue Plains being a prime example of that, though I've never gotten ticketed because I know where they are), but the high traffic speeds often seen past the ballpark are not really compatible with safe traffic management after ballpark events.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 23, 2015, 01:49:28 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 23, 2015, 12:25:58 PM
I'll keep my eyes peeled for it when I go down there this week or next week for my annual "scout out the parking to see if where I park for games is still legal" trip. The place where I park was still OK for the Winter Classic, but I always like to verify in advance of the season so I don't get a nasty surprise on Opening Day!

Good approach.  When I was studying parking space turnover there, a TON of free, unrestricted spaces were available on an abandoned section of Canal Street, S.E. (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=38.879541,-77.004367&ll=38.879483,-77.004182&spn=0.003366,0.005815&num=1&t=h&z=18) behind the site of the old D.C. DPW trash transfer station off of I Street, S.E. west of 2nd Street, S.E.  But those are all gone now.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 23, 2015, 12:25:58 PM
This particular camera location should rake in a lot of money until people get used to it being there. It's not unusual to see people going through there at 45—50 mph. If indeed the new DC United stadium gets built in Buzzard Point, there will be that much more pedestrian traffic crossing South Capitol Street there because the Navy Yard Metro is up at Half and M SE. I'm usually not thrilled by the concept of speed cameras, especially when they're used to enforce ludicrously low speed limits (the ones on I-295 near Blue Plains being a prime example of that, though I've never gotten ticketed because I know where they are), but the high traffic speeds often seen past the ballpark are not really compatible with safe traffic management after ballpark events.

If conditions are congested on I-695, I could see that as a bail-out route to go north on D.C. 295 or south on I-295, but it is no longer a good one.  When conditions are free-flow, I-695 is a vastly faster way, though it is a little longer.

When there is an event at the Nationals ballpark, the DDOT traffic control people usually have traffic running very slowly on South Capitol Street in that area. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 25, 2015, 01:56:52 PM
I was just down past the ballpark. As froggie notes, the new cameras are on the block between O and P. Both are on the median; the outbound (southbound) camera is closer to O and the northbound (inbound) camera is closer to P. The road already has the horizontal lines painted across it some distance past the camera. I was the only person going anywhere remotely as slow as 25 mph, so as I speculated before, the city is going to make a fortune from those cameras until people realize they're there.

Incidentally, Maine Avenue past the Southwest Waterfront is a massive mess. It was bad in January en route to the Winter Classic, but it's far worse now, to the point where it is a road to be avoided for the foreseeable future due to all the construction work, massively bumpy pavement, protruding manhole covers, etc. There is also a new traffic light near the seafood market where 12th Street comes out of that short tunnel and Maine Avenue comes in as a single lane coming from the Tidal Basin. There was always a yield sign there but it was never 100% clear at whom it was directed. Well, now there's a light that alternates between both streets. While I usually dislike traffic lights, with all the construction going on this one is probably a good idea for now for purposes of protecting the workers by reducing the risk of failure-to-yield crashes.


BTW, regarding cpzilliacus's comment about I-695 versus South Capitol Street, I-695 is definitely the faster route now that most of the construction on there is done. That's how we usually go home from Caps games because we're usually just a smidgen too late to access the I-395 HOV lanes. Since there's still a lot of construction in the Seminary Road area, we opt for I-695 to I-295 to the Beltway instead. Surprisingly, given I-295's usual state of anarchy, that route is less stressful to drive than I-395 is!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 23, 2015, 03:26:50 PM
Washington Post: D.C. to retime hundreds of traffic signals (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/04/23/d-c-to-retime-hundreds-of-traffic-signals/)

QuoteThe District Department of Transportation plans to begin a month-long program aimed at one of drivers' top complaints: the timing of traffic signals.

QuoteThe effort, set to begin Friday night, will focus on 650 intersections in the District's core, DDOT said in an announcement. The new campaign will continue through May.

QuoteIt's part of a citywide program of "signal optimization"  that began in 2012 and is scheduled to continue into 2016. DDOT's goals include improving traffic flow, making intersections safer for pedestrian crossings and improving travel times for buses.

QuoteThe zone for this particular phase of the program is 23rd Street NW on the west, North Capitol Street on the east, U Street and Florida Avenue NW to the north and Interstate 395 to the south, but DDOT said the effort will include some intersections in Georgetown along M Street and Wisconsin Avenue NW.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 23, 2015, 04:36:08 PM
WRC-TV: D.C. Investigates Congestion Pricing to Improve Traffic (http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/DC-Investigates-Congestion-Pricing-to-Improve-Traffic-301011441.html)

QuoteD.C. is investigating congestion pricing to improve traffic in the city.

QuoteThe idea of charging a toll to enter the city during rush hour could encourage more people to take mass transit or carpool, said John Townsend of AAA, but it could also backfire, causing people to leave the area altogether.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on April 23, 2015, 06:16:46 PM
If they (drivers) don't want to pay for the roads or the congestion they cause, they are more than welcome to "leave the area altogether".
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on April 23, 2015, 07:46:54 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 23, 2015, 03:26:50 PM
Washington Post: D.C. to retime hundreds of traffic signals (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/04/23/d-c-to-retime-hundreds-of-traffic-signals/)

QuoteThe District Department of Transportation plans to begin a month-long program aimed at one of drivers' top complaints: the timing of traffic signals.

QuoteThe effort, set to begin Friday night, will focus on 650 intersections in the District's core, DDOT said in an announcement. The new campaign will continue through May.

QuoteIt's part of a citywide program of "signal optimization"  that began in 2012 and is scheduled to continue into 2016. DDOT's goals include improving traffic flow, making intersections safer for pedestrian crossings and improving travel times for buses.

QuoteThe zone for this particular phase of the program is 23rd Street NW on the west, North Capitol Street on the east, U Street and Florida Avenue NW to the north and Interstate 395 to the south, but DDOT said the effort will include some intersections in Georgetown along M Street and Wisconsin Avenue NW.
Sweet. It's about time they realize that traffic signals aren't for traffic calming. Get a nice 25-30 mph progression going and the flow will take care of itself. Pedestrians can cross just as easily on a synchronized red as on an asynchronized one.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 23, 2015, 10:32:02 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 23, 2015, 06:16:46 PM
If they (drivers) don't want to pay for the roads or the congestion they cause, they are more than welcome to "leave the area altogether".

Perhaps more difficult in the national capital than elsewhere.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 23, 2015, 10:34:35 PM
Quote from: Alps on April 23, 2015, 07:46:54 PM
Sweet. It's about time they realize that traffic signals aren't for traffic calming. Get a nice 25-30 mph progression going and the flow will take care of itself. Pedestrians can cross just as easily on a synchronized red as on an asynchronized one.

I hope you are correct.

But far too many District of Columbia elected officials and the almost infinitely large number of D.C. citizen activists seem to regard traffic control devices, especially signals and STOP signs, as having a primary purpose of traffic calming.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on April 24, 2015, 08:47:40 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 23, 2015, 10:34:35 PM
Quote from: Alps on April 23, 2015, 07:46:54 PM
Sweet. It's about time they realize that traffic signals aren't for traffic calming. Get a nice 25-30 mph progression going and the flow will take care of itself. Pedestrians can cross just as easily on a synchronized red as on an asynchronized one.

I hope you are correct.

But far too many District of Columbia elected officials and the almost infinitely large number of D.C. citizen activists seem to regard traffic control devices, especially signals and STOP signs, as having a primary purpose of traffic calming.

Heh. I have a YouTube video showing a trip on which it took us half an hour to go from 15th and New York NW to 10th and New York NW due to poorly-timed traffic lights. Ugh.

We were headed to Verizon Center. I have to admit, it is much easier from my new workplace because I walk to Farragut North and take the Red Line two stops to the arena.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 04, 2015, 11:32:31 PM
WTOP Radio: Where to look out for new speed enforcement cameras (http://wtop.com/dc/2015/05/where-to-look-out-for-new-speed-enforcement-cameras/)

QuoteNew speed enforcement cameras in the District go online Monday.

QuoteThe Metropolitan Police Department has installed five new speed cameras across the city, in areas where speed has been a problem.

QuoteDuring  a 30-day educational period, violators will receive warning citations. After a month, speeders will get moving citations.

QuoteHere's where the new speed cameras are located:

    700 block of Maryland Ave NW, southbound  25 mph
    2600 block of Wisconsin Ave NW, northbound  25 mph
    4400 block of Reservoir Rd NW, eastbound  25 mph
    2400 block of 18th St NE, southbound  25 mph
    3000 block of Pennsylvania Ave SE, northwestbound  30 mph
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Nature Boy on May 05, 2015, 01:57:58 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 23, 2015, 10:32:02 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 23, 2015, 06:16:46 PM
If they (drivers) don't want to pay for the roads or the congestion they cause, they are more than welcome to "leave the area altogether".

Perhaps more difficult in the national capital than elsewhere.

This is true.

Washington DC has the unfortunate position of not being in a state. Like any city, the majority of its workers commute in but unlike most cities, ALL of those people come from out of state. The problem with a toll though is that it's far easier to toll Virginia traffic because there are only so many ways to cross into DC from south of the city. Try tolling the Maryland traffic. There are ton of roads that run into Maryland, you'll never be able to toll everyone from that side.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 05, 2015, 02:34:34 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on May 05, 2015, 01:57:58 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 23, 2015, 10:32:02 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 23, 2015, 06:16:46 PM
If they (drivers) don't want to pay for the roads or the congestion they cause, they are more than welcome to "leave the area altogether".

Perhaps more difficult in the national capital than elsewhere.

This is true.

Washington DC has the unfortunate position of not being in a state. Like any city, the majority of its workers commute in but unlike most cities, ALL of those people come from out of state.

Though it is important to emphasize that there are plenty of D.C. residents that drive in their cars to work - even if they happen to have a job at a location inside D.C.

QuoteThe problem with a toll though is that it's far easier to toll Virginia traffic because there are only so many ways to cross into DC from south of the city. Try tolling the Maryland traffic. There are ton of roads that run into Maryland, you'll never be able to toll everyone from that side.

Technically, it is not a problem at all.  Consider the London (England) Congestion Charge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge) zone (map here (https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/congestion-charge-zone-map.pdf) (.pdf)), which is entered by way of streets of varied sizes and widths.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Nature Boy on May 05, 2015, 02:37:48 PM
I have no idea why any DC resident would drive to work at another DC location, what a waste of time and money. I have to imagine that the Metro would be far cheaper and less of a headache.

And the London Congestion Zone tolling is an interesting idea, I don't know enough about how it works to have an opinion either way. But DC does need to find a way to capture revenue from Maryland and Virginia people who come in and everyday.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 05, 2015, 02:43:54 PM
Washington Post: Just trying to get home (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/just-trying-to-get-home/2015/05/01/cfc4fc4e-da4b-11e4-8103-fa84725dbf9d_story.html)

QuoteIt's 4:30. I'm driving south on 16th Street NW on a beautiful early April afternoon in Washington. I know rush hour will be difficult as I try to get home to Virginia, so I pick the route that I hope will be the most easily managed. Hope is the operative word.

QuoteTraffic is already bad as I get close to Adams Morgan, so I get on 14th Street, which, even with all the traffic lights, eventually will get me to the bridge to Virginia. But traffic is backed up, so I turn left again toward Ninth Street, which has a tunnel that will connect me to Virginia.

QuoteAt Mount Vernon Square, nobody is moving even after the light turns green. After what seems like five seconds, the light turns red again. It takes about 15 minutes to get on Ninth Street, where every block or so there's another traffic light. But at least traffic is crawling along – until it comes to a stop near Constitution Avenue.

QuoteNobody is moving. Cross-traffic on red lights is blocking the way. It's gridlock.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Nature Boy on May 05, 2015, 02:46:13 PM
How much better would traffic be if they had actually built I-95 through the city? From what I've seen, DC would benefit GREATLY from an expressway through the city. You could even do another Big Dig and bury it under the city if you have to.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 05, 2015, 02:47:44 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on May 05, 2015, 02:37:48 PM
I have no idea why any DC resident would drive to work at another DC location, what a waste of time and money. I have to imagine that the Metro would be far cheaper and less of a headache.

Simple - because there are areas with employment that are not well-served by Metro.  A large example being Joint Base Anacostia Bolling in Southwest D.C. 

Most employees of the legislative branch of the government get free parking on and around Capitol Hill.

Quote from: The Nature Boy on May 05, 2015, 02:37:48 PM
And the London Congestion Zone tolling is an interesting idea, I don't know enough about how it works to have an opinion either way. But DC does need to find a way to capture revenue from Maryland and Virginia people who come in and everyday.

Though consider the phrase be careful what you ask for, because you just might get it.

Maryland and Virginia could easily make the same statement about D.C. residents that drive into their jurisdictions to reach employment, and toll them as they leave D.C.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on May 05, 2015, 09:52:42 PM
QuoteHow much better would traffic be if they had actually built I-95 through the city? From what I've seen, DC would benefit GREATLY from an expressway through the city.

Given the level of development in the region and pent up travel demand, one could make a strong argument that traffic would actually be worse had they built I-95 through the city.  At best, it would've reduced the scope (but likely not eliminated the need) of the Wilson Bridge and Springfield Interchange projects.

Nevermind that, if you had that many more drivers coming into the DC core, where would they park?  Parking lots take up a lot of valuable real estate, and garages are expensive.  Would definitely be a losing proposition for DC proper.

QuoteYou could even do another Big Dig and bury it under the city if you have to.

Doug Willinger has been spouting that for years, but the time to attempt it is long past.  I would argue that, at this point, trying to build 95 through DC (even underground) would do more harm than good, nevermind being UNGODLY expensive.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on May 20, 2015, 09:43:01 PM
What happened to all the US Route shields in DC?  I was noticing that on GSV and from various road geek photos that all of the US route shields for both US 1 and US 50 are all gone.

DC is the home of FHWA, you would think they would have better signage than the 48 states that have them, but it is now terrible.   I thought it was bad over 12 years ago, the last time I rode US 1 through there, but now its the worst.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on May 20, 2015, 10:06:13 PM
QuoteWhat happened to all the US Route shields in DC?  I was noticing that on GSV and from various road geek photos that all of the US route shields for both US 1 and US 50 are all gone.

They (https://goo.gl/maps/s7ZYD) are (https://goo.gl/maps/qseZP)?

QuoteDC is the home of FHWA,

Which really means nothing in the grand scheme of street/road maintenance.

It's true that route signage takes a low priority in DC (something it shares with several Tennessee cities and at least one Virginia city, BTW).  But it's not like most through traffic is actually using said routes through DC.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 20, 2015, 10:11:29 PM
There are also a couple of "DC-US" shields for Route 50 on the outbound Roosevelt Bridge, which I find mildly amusing because at that point there is no further way to remain in the District without first entering Virginia unless you jump off the side of the bridge.

I know there are some others in various places.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 21, 2015, 10:16:36 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 20, 2015, 09:43:01 PM
What happened to all the US Route shields in DC?  I was noticing that on GSV and from various road geek photos that all of the US route shields for both US 1 and US 50 are all gone.

It is certainly a challenge to follow either of those routes across the District of Columbia.  But IMO U.S. 29 is much worse.

The only U.S. route where all (or very nearly all) of the shields have disappeared is U.S. 1 Alternate. Well-signed in Maryland, not signed (or incorrectly signed in a few places).

Quote from: roadman65 on May 20, 2015, 09:43:01 PM
DC is the home of FHWA, you would think they would have better signage than the 48 states that have them, but it is now terrible.   I thought it was bad over 12 years ago, the last time I rode US 1 through there, but now its the worst.

Not sure that there are very many roadgeek types at FHWA headquarters that would take notice of such things.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on May 22, 2015, 11:25:10 AM
Oh I forgot about US 1 Alternate.  Yes it disappears completely once across the border into DC.

US 29, has gotten worse, I imagine, now its alignment is changed.  It is around the same time is it not, that the shields disappeared? 

Being that someone was ordered to remove those little signs, whoever placed the request should have known that those were there for a reason and either kept them or updated them.  Even those erroneous interstate shields on NB NW 14th Street at Constitution Avenue for US 1 and US 50 are now gone, no doubt purposely removed.  Then the ones SB on NW 9th Street at Constitution Avenue for US 1, US 50, and I-395 is also removed also on order.  Why would someone even think of taking down these shields anyway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 22, 2015, 01:36:19 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 22, 2015, 11:25:10 AM
Oh I forgot about US 1 Alternate.  Yes it disappears completely once across the border into DC.
IMO this is unfortunate, because it still shows in several GPS navigation programs.

Quote from: roadman65 on May 22, 2015, 11:25:10 AM
US 29, has gotten worse, I imagine, now its alignment is changed.  It is around the same time is it not, that the shields disappeared?
There are some U.S. 29 shields along Georgia Avenue, N.W., but it is nearly impossible to follow it from 7th and Florida Avenue, N.W. to the Key Bridge to cross into Arlington County, Va. 

Quote from: roadman65 on May 22, 2015, 11:25:10 AM
Being that someone was ordered to remove those little signs, whoever placed the request should have known that those were there for a reason and either kept them or updated them.  Even those erroneous interstate shields on NB NW 14th Street at Constitution Avenue for US 1 and US 50 are now gone, no doubt purposely removed.  Then the ones SB on NW 9th Street at Constitution Avenue for US 1, US 50, and I-395 is also removed also on order.  Why would someone even think of taking down these shields anyway.
I don't know why they have been removed, but it's not unique to D.C. Many municipalities do not bother with posting U.S. and state route numbers that happen to run on their municipal streets.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 22, 2015, 04:58:19 PM
Any plans to sort out the confusing exit numbers on Interstate 395?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on May 23, 2015, 10:08:57 PM
They'll probably sort out as signs are replaced.  DC appears to be undergoing a quiet conversion to mile-based exit numbers.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 30, 2015, 10:15:45 PM
Washington Post: Memorial Bridge, symbol of U.S. strength, is corroded, partly shut down (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/memorial-bridge-symbol-of-us-strength-is-corroded-partly-shut-down/2015/05/28/bbe0e9b0-0582-11e5-a428-c984eb077d4e_story.html)

QuoteThe iconic 1930s-era Memorial Bridge that leads from the entrance of Arlington National Cemetery to the Lincoln Memorial is so badly corroded that two lanes must be partially shut down for six to nine months starting with Friday's morning rush hour, federal officials said Thursday.

QuoteIn addition, a 10-ton load limit across the entire length of the bridge essentially eliminates most bus traffic on the granite-faced, arching landmark for even longer, pending a much-needed rehab of the whole bridge, officials said. The prohibition begins Friday, but with an "education period"  without ticketing for a couple of weeks to give Metro and tour bus operators time to find detours, according to the National Park Service.

QuoteAlthough tens of thousands of U.S. bridges have been deemed "structurally deficient,"  the functional mess and potent symbolism of a crumbling Memorial Bridge needing emergency repairs had the Washington region's congressional representatives fuming.

QuoteSen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.) warned of "unbearable congestion"  for the more than 60,000 drivers who cross the Potomac between Virginia and the District daily. Sen. Mark Warner (D-Va.) called it "not just embarrassing — it's outrageous."  

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 30, 2015, 11:36:35 PM
Washington Post: Stones laid by Benjamin Banneker in the 1790s are still standing. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/stones-laid-by-benjamin-banneker-in-the-1790s-are-still-standing/2015/05/30/11c39d04-0007-11e5-833c-a2de05b6b2a4_story.html)

QuoteIn the summer of 1790, the U.S. Congress authorized President George Washington to select a 100-square-mile site along the Potomac River as the new nation's capital. A year later, Continental Army Maj. Andrew Ellicott, joined by Benjamin Banneker, a freed slave and self-taught mathematician, was commissioned to carve out the boundaries of what would soon become Washington, D.C.

QuoteAs a way of clearly demarcating the new city from Maryland and Virginia, the two men began planting 40 limestone markers along the new borders in 1791. These boundary stones, as they came to be known, were planted every mile, creating the diamond-shaped swath of land that marked the original District's borders.

Quote"These stones are our nation's oldest national landmarks,"  said Sharon K. Thorne-Sulima, regent for the Martha Washington Chapter of the D.C. Daughters of the American Revolution.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 03, 2015, 09:10:30 PM
More bad DC parking signs: http://wtop.com/ticketbuster/2015/06/new-parking-signs-in-northwest-create-confusion/

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2F1fd3c3c959041ed6733ffa75653e6f8f_zpsjvil2dng.jpg&hash=ef0b5e387a659e2558af49c75c57d439d0e65394)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on June 04, 2015, 12:15:45 AM
GreaterGreaterWashington:  DC made it more appealing to drive through East of the River neighborhoods to get between Maryland and Virginia. You'll never guess what happened next.  (http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/26964/dc-made-it-more-appealing-to-drive-through-east-of-the-river-neighborhoods-to-get-between-maryland-/)

QuoteWhen DC rebuilt the 11th Street Bridge with more lanes and more highway ramps, officials insisted it would make traffic better, while many worried it would only worsen the situation by encouraging drivers to cut through DC between Maryland and Virginia. Now, residents east of the Anacostia say that the change has been a disaster for their communities.

The 11th Street Bridge connects the Southeast Freeway, which divides Capitol Hill and the Navy Yard area and is now signed I-695, with the Anacostia neighborhood and 295. North of there, the highway along the east bank of the Anacostia is called DC-295; west, it's I-295.

Before a massive project to rebuild the bridge over the past few years, there was no direct car connection from DC-295 to the bridge. Some drivers got off 295 at Pennsylvania Avenue and crossed the river there before getting back on the highway.

It made a certain sense to add a connection. Surely it's logical to have ramps connecting all of the highways, right? Some drivers in neighborhoods around DC-295 found their commutes quite awkward, and the drivers getting off the highway and back on clogged up some neighborhood roads.

However, some people warned that the cure could be worse than the disease. By building a connection, it would be simpler for people already driving this route, but could also attract more drivers to make the trip, adding to traffic and pollution for people living near the highways.

See link above for the rest of the article.

What I actually enjoyed about this article was the following comment from CParker:

QuoteI commute through this debacle every day from College Park to Anacostia and have done so for the past 10 years. Traffic has always been bad, but when they put in the 695 connector, it has got several orders of magnitude worse.
In the morning, the problem lies on the section from the 295 south exit for East Capitol Street to the Pennsylvania Ave. Interchange. In DC's infinite wisdom, they took a 3 lane road (Kenilworth from the border of DC) and constricted it to 2 lanes for no obvious reason for several miles. This then gets further constricted to basically 1 thru lane at the horrific Pennsylvania Ave. Westbound ramp where all the traffic that has come into DC on PA Ave tries to merge in about 50 feet onto 295 south. Add a 3rd lane for that section and shut off the Pennsylvania ave exit (which is no longer needed now that the boulevard has been completed) and I think you'll see a dramatic improvement in traffic. I don't even think it will require any major construction, just restripe the roads and use the extremely wide bridges that cross the CSX tracks and add a little bit of shoulder space where possible.

Northbound the problem has to do with the huge volume of traffic coming off of 695 in the evening to go north on 295 or get off at PA Ave. Cars coming north on I-295 routinely ride the shoulder and exit ramps up over the PA Ave interchange and dangerously merge with traffic coming onto 295 from PA Ave Eastbound. Once you get past PA Ave, again, you are on a 2 lane road that should be 3 lanes and would be easy to restripe to fix that.

The more major fix here I would propose is more complicated. I would close the 295 Northbound exit to PA Ave westbound and use that exit lane as the 3rd lane over the interchange. This would inconvenience a few drivers, but if they wanted to cross the river from 295 at the 11th street bridge (which in the evening is not overloaded), they could get off at 8th Street to get to PA Ave.

I am losing 20-40 minutes a day in traffic that I didn't have before the construction of the 695 interchange. I want my time back. I'd be happy to go to DDOT and show them the proposal myself.

Indeed.  Don't blame the bridge for the traffic problems here.  They should have included a widening of 295 to at least 3 lanes as part of the bridge project.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Henry on June 11, 2015, 12:41:50 PM
But at least, they finally fixed the problem that was lack of a direct connection from DC 295 to I-695. That area could get very horrendous, especially during the rush hour.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on June 11, 2015, 01:43:35 PM
Quote from: HenryThat area still gets very horrendous, especially during the rush hour.

FTFY.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on June 11, 2015, 03:23:15 PM
Quote from: Henry on June 11, 2015, 12:41:50 PM
But at least, they finally fixed the problem that was lack of a direct connection from DC 295 to I-695. That area could get very horrendous, especially during the rush hour.

Now it is more horrendous!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Henry on June 12, 2015, 01:17:44 PM
Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on June 11, 2015, 03:23:15 PM
Quote from: Henry on June 11, 2015, 12:41:50 PM
But at least, they finally fixed the problem that was lack of a direct connection from DC 295 to I-695 (and vice versa)

Now it is more horrendous!
Yikes! Guess I was wrong.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 12, 2015, 01:33:58 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 11, 2015, 01:43:35 PM
Quote from: HenryThat area still gets very horrendous, especially during the rush hour.

FTFY.


But - it has very clearly removed a lot of heavy-duty truck trips from H Street, N.E. and Benning Road, N.E., and put them on roads designed for that sort of traffic.  That is one of the reasons I was in favor of the project, and am glad that it got built.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 15, 2015, 02:54:37 PM
WTOP Radio: D.C. traffic system vulnerable to hackers (http://wtop.com/dc/2015/06/dc-traffic-system-vulnerable-to-hackers/)

QuoteTraffic lights in the District and other major cities have been hacked by security researchers, in an attempt to point out vulnerabilities in infrastructures that support daily commutes.

QuoteCesar Cerrudo, an Argentine security researcher at IOActive Labs, realized he could turn red lights green and green lights red, during a trip to Washington last year.

QuoteCerrudo told The New York Times (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/06/10/traffic-hacking-caution-light-is-on/) he could have paralyzed emergency responders, or shut down all roads to the Capitol.

QuoteInstead, Cerrudo contacted the company that designs city traffic sensors, but does not encrypt the data running through them.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 21, 2015, 01:37:59 PM
Washington Post: Memorial Bridge: An icon for inaction (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/memorial-bridge-an-icon-for-inaction/2015/06/19/ff3b6fbe-1455-11e5-9518-f9e0a8959f32_story.html)

QuoteArlington Memorial Bridge is the most iconic bridge in our nation's capital. Each day thousands of commuters and tourists cross the Potomac River to travel between Northern Virginia and the District. I always am moved by how the bridge symbolizes U.S. history.

QuoteUnderneath, however, the bridge is symbolic of a nationwide problem: the steady decay of U.S. infrastructure, something I am acutely familiar with as president of the National Association of Corrosion Engineers.

QuoteLast month, federal officials declared the corrosion of the Arlington Memorial Bridge so advanced that two lanes will be closed for up to nine months for emergency repairs. A thorough inspection by the Federal Highway Administration revealed secondary steel support beams were so corroded that they no longer met load-bearing standards. The concrete bridge deck suffered "serious deterioration,"  the National Park Service said.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 28, 2015, 02:35:19 AM
WTOP Radio: More funds available to fix D.C.'s rough roads (http://wtop.com/dc/2015/06/cheh-more-funds-available-to-fix-d-c-s-rough-roads/)

QuotePotholes, cracked pavement and crumbling roadways. It's the nation's capital, but D.C. has some of the worst paved roads in the United States.

Quote"Ninety-two percent of the city's major roads have poor pavement conditions,"  says Rocky Moretti, director of policy for TRIP, a transportation research group.

QuoteConversely, just 28 percent of Maryland's major urban roads and 19 percent of Virginia's major urban roads are described as being in poor condition, according to Federal Highway Administration data.

QuoteD.C.'s roads are among the most heavily traveled in the United States. The data show a high number of city roads have been in poor condition the last six or seven years.

Quote"Everybody in the District knows that the roads need repair,"  says D.C. councilwoman Mary Cheh, who chairs the council's transportation committee.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on June 29, 2015, 08:31:12 AM
Based on my own experience, I think TRIP went high on their estimate.  But on the flip side, this is a major city that has seen a major renaissance which means lots of construction and lots of construction trucks on city streets.  So poor street condition is not a complete surprise.  Just further demonstrates that trucks really DON'T pay their fair share of roadway costs...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 30, 2015, 01:47:51 AM
Quote from: froggie on June 29, 2015, 08:31:12 AM
Based on my own experience, I think TRIP went high on their estimate.  But on the flip side, this is a major city that has seen a major renaissance which means lots of construction and lots of construction trucks on city streets.  So poor street condition is not a complete surprise.  Just further demonstrates that trucks really DON'T pay their fair share of roadway costs...

In the District of Columbia that is correct because even under the (better) governance of the city since the late former Mayor-for-Life Marion Shepilov Barry, Jr. left office in 1999, they still have not joined IFTA (http://www.iftach.org/) (International Fuel Tax Agreement), which means (thanks to there being very few truck fleets based in the city), that most trucks and commercial buses do not pay any road use/fuel tax to D.C. at all, as they do in the 48 coterminous states and all Canadian state-equivilant jurisdictions.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on July 05, 2015, 08:37:50 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 30, 2015, 01:47:51 AM
Quote from: froggie on June 29, 2015, 08:31:12 AM
Based on my own experience, I think TRIP went high on their estimate.  But on the flip side, this is a major city that has seen a major renaissance which means lots of construction and lots of construction trucks on city streets.  So poor street condition is not a complete surprise.  Just further demonstrates that trucks really DON'T pay their fair share of roadway costs...

In the District of Columbia that is correct because even under the (better) governance of the city since the late former Mayor-for-Life Marion Shepilov Barry, Jr. left office in 1999, they still have not joined IFTA (http://www.iftach.org/) (International Fuel Tax Agreement), which means (thanks to there being very few truck fleets based in the city), that most trucks and commercial buses do not pay any road use/fuel tax to D.C. at all, as they do in the 48 coterminous states and all Canadian state-equivilant jurisdictions.

DC is geographically very small.  I don't believe that anyone would buy gas there, if they could help it.   It's just as easy to buy gas in MD or VA.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on July 05, 2015, 09:18:09 AM
Quote from: mrsman on July 05, 2015, 08:37:50 AM
DC is geographically very small.  I don't believe that anyone would buy gas there, if they could help it.   It's just as easy to buy gas in MD or VA.

Well, the people who live there, who'd have to go several miles out of their way to buy gas in MD, and that plus river crossing hassles to buy gas in VA.

True, people living outside DC rarely have to buy gas there. I commuted into DC for more than three decades, and bought gas there only once or twice when I let my gas tank go too close to empty. There are several gas stations along DC 295, for people who get low-fuel warnings as they cut through the District.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 07, 2015, 05:33:45 AM
Quote from: mrsman on July 05, 2015, 08:37:50 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 30, 2015, 01:47:51 AM
Quote from: froggie on June 29, 2015, 08:31:12 AM
Based on my own experience, I think TRIP went high on their estimate.  But on the flip side, this is a major city that has seen a major renaissance which means lots of construction and lots of construction trucks on city streets.  So poor street condition is not a complete surprise.  Just further demonstrates that trucks really DON'T pay their fair share of roadway costs...

In the District of Columbia that is correct because even under the (better) governance of the city since the late former Mayor-for-Life Marion Shepilov Barry, Jr. left office in 1999, they still have not joined IFTA (http://www.iftach.org/) (International Fuel Tax Agreement), which means (thanks to there being very few truck fleets based in the city), that most trucks and commercial buses do not pay any road use/fuel tax to D.C. at all, as they do in the 48 coterminous states and all Canadian state-equivilant jurisdictions.

DC is geographically very small.  I don't believe that anyone would buy gas there, if they could help it.   It's just as easy to buy gas in MD or VA.

And that is precisely why D.C. should be a member of IFTA.  It collects little or no motor fuel tax revenue from trucks operating in the, including "qualified motor vehucles" that much display IFTA stickere
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 09, 2015, 11:28:20 AM
WTOP Radio: Trapped trucks a recurring issue on the area parkways (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2015/07/trapped-trucks-a-recurring-issue-on-the-area-parkways/slide/1/)

QuoteFor the second time in a week, an over-height truck became lodged under a low-clearance bridge on the Rock Creek Parkway in D.C., requiring a lengthy extrication and causing long traffic delays.

QuoteThe moving truck was traveling southbound on the Rock Creek Parkway around 11 a.m. Wednesday when it collided with the K Street/Whitehurst Freeway overpass. The arched overpass, at its lowest point, is 12 feet high.

QuoteCrews with the U.S. Park Police and District Department of Transportation deflated the tires on both vehicles, lowering their height to allow the trucks to be dislodged from the underpass. There was no significant bridge damage evident following the collisions.

QuoteThe truck driver in Wednesday's incident was issued a $25 citation for operating a commercial vehicle on a scenic bypass. The wreck was cleared by early afternoon.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Henry on July 09, 2015, 11:33:52 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 09, 2015, 11:28:20 AM
WTOP Radio: Trapped trucks a recurring issue on the area parkways (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2015/07/trapped-trucks-a-recurring-issue-on-the-area-parkways/slide/1/)

QuoteFor the second time in a week, an over-height truck became lodged under a low-clearance bridge on the Rock Creek Parkway in D.C., requiring a lengthy extrication and causing long traffic delays.

QuoteThe moving truck was traveling southbound on the Rock Creek Parkway around 11 a.m. Wednesday when it collided with the K Street/Whitehurst Freeway overpass. The arched overpass, at its lowest point, is 12 feet high.

QuoteCrews with the U.S. Park Police and District Department of Transportation deflated the tires on both vehicles, lowering their height to allow the trucks to be dislodged from the underpass. There was no significant bridge damage evident following the collisions.

QuoteThe truck driver in Wednesday’s incident was issued a $25 citation for operating a commercial vehicle on a scenic bypass. The wreck was cleared by early afternoon.
And that, my friends, is why you must not drive a big truck on parkways and other scenic roads.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on July 09, 2015, 11:40:32 AM
$25 seems very low for a citation.  I know the damage done is costly enough, but a more overt fine might make a few people stop and think before somehow thinking they can fit under the bridges.

Then again, bridge hits on NYC/LI parkways are still quite common despite NYSDOT and other agencies' efforts. :/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 09, 2015, 12:23:19 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 09, 2015, 11:40:32 AM
$25 seems very low for a citation.  I know the damage done is costly enough, but a more overt fine might make a few people stop and think before somehow thinking they can fit under the bridges.

Then again, bridge hits on NYC/LI parkways are still quite common despite NYSDOT and other agencies' efforts. :/

It's not like most people are going to know the fine in the first place.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 09, 2015, 01:26:58 PM
Depending on the size of the vehicle, some companies will view that sort of fine as a cost of doing business, like how FedEx and UPS budget large amounts for parking tickets. Obviously this line of thought doesn't work with trucks too big to fit under low clearances, but there are plenty of commercial vehicles that would fit whose drivers might feel the $25 is worth it to save time, seeing as how Rock Creek Parkway is sometimes considerably faster than the alternatives.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on July 10, 2015, 03:58:48 PM
I would think that there is a better way to solve the problem of trucks that are too high for parkways. 

The main reason that you are seeing more of these is that people are letting GPS dictate how they are supposed to go.   I'm sure these people did not properly apply a truck restriction so that they don't use the parkways.

On the transition from the Verrazano Bridge to the Belt Parkway, there are some chains that apparently a tall truck would hit if they were above the height limit.   Then, you see this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.61079,-74.032522,3a,75y,242.89h,75.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdVtsEmbHd-lc1V8sUlKrEw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

So there is an escape route for those who "accidentally" ended up on a parkway before they come to hitting a bridge.

Perhaps something similar should be designed at entrances to the DC area parkways from other expressways.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 10, 2015, 05:08:36 PM
Part of the problem as to Rock Creek Parkway is that in a couple of places (notably Virginia Avenue) it's accessed via a normal city intersection. I don't doubt another issue is the National Park Service probably being reluctant to post more signs than the bare minimum needed in keeping with the "park" aspect of "parkway," even though for practical purposes it's become a major commuter route.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 11, 2015, 09:17:27 AM
Quote from: mrsman on July 10, 2015, 03:58:48 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.61079,-74.032522,3a,75y,242.89h,75.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdVtsEmbHd-lc1V8sUlKrEw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

So there is an escape route for those who "accidentally" ended up on a parkway before they come to hitting a bridge.

Perhaps something similar should be designed at entrances to the DC area parkways from other expressways.

The driver of a commercial vehicle who is depending on a GPS unit is unlikely to notice signage like that.  New York City and New York State are pretty good at having PASSENGER CARS ONLY signs at entrances to their parkways.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on July 13, 2015, 04:25:50 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 11, 2015, 09:17:27 AM
Quote from: mrsman on July 10, 2015, 03:58:48 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.61079,-74.032522,3a,75y,242.89h,75.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdVtsEmbHd-lc1V8sUlKrEw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

So there is an escape route for those who "accidentally" ended up on a parkway before they come to hitting a bridge.

Perhaps something similar should be designed at entrances to the DC area parkways from other expressways.

The driver of a commercial vehicle who is depending on a GPS unit is unlikely to notice signage like that.  New York City and New York State are pretty good at having PASSENGER CARS ONLY signs at entrances to their parkways.

I think there is more than just the sign.  I think that there is a maximum clearance banner a little bit up the road with chains dangling at the maximum height.  If your truck is too tall, you will hit the chains.  It won't cause much damage, but it might get your attention before you approach a bridge, and then you can cause great damage.

Despite all the signage, there are occasional incidents of trucks getting stuck in NYC as well.  There is only so much that the signs can do.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on July 13, 2015, 10:37:07 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 13, 2015, 04:25:50 PM
Despite all the signage, there are occasional incidents of trucks getting stuck in NYC as well.  There is only so much that the signs can do.

Bridge hits in NYC and LI (such as on the parkways) are quite and frustratingly common.  I personally think some truckers (usually locals) just can't resist the risk to save a little time.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2015, 07:51:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 13, 2015, 10:37:07 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 13, 2015, 04:25:50 PM
Despite all the signage, there are occasional incidents of trucks getting stuck in NYC as well.  There is only so much that the signs can do.

Bridge hits in NYC and LI (such as on the parkways) are quite and frustratingly common.  I personally think some truckers (usually locals) just can't resist the risk to save a little time.

If the cost was a little higher (as in a reckless driving ticket and a CDL suspension), I think the problem would be corrected quickly.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2015, 07:52:12 PM
Washington Post: Is Pennsylvania worthy of such a prominent D.C. avenue? A ranking of 50 state-named roads. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/07/16/is-pennsylvania-worthy-of-such-a-prominent-d-c-avenue-a-ranking-of-50-state-named-roads/)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2015, 07:54:39 PM
WTOP Radio: No trucks allowed: Enforcement stepped up on area parkways (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2015/07/no-trucks-allowed-enforcement-stepped-up-on-area-parkways/)

QuoteNo trucks allowed. That's the message United State Park Police want to get across to truck drivers who use the National Park Service's parkways in the D.C. area.

Quote"Our roads were made to be scenic tourist roadways,"  says Lt. Roxanne Brown-Ankney – commander for the traffic safety unit for the U.S. Park Police – of the George Washington, Clara Barton, Rock Creek, Suitland and Baltimore-Washington parkways.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 16, 2015, 09:19:24 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2015, 07:52:12 PM
Washington Post: Is Pennsylvania worthy of such a prominent D.C. avenue? A ranking of 50 state-named roads. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/07/16/is-pennsylvania-worthy-of-such-a-prominent-d-c-avenue-a-ranking-of-50-state-named-roads/)

He could have added the generally-unknown Puerto Rico Avenue. I know it's not a state, of course, and that's precisely why I find its existence odd–there's no Guam Avenue or American Samoa Avenue or whatever.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on July 16, 2015, 09:41:48 PM
The author's musings are interesting, but we're not about to redo the D.C. street network just to give currently big states like California and Texas their due. He acknowledges the importance of whether the state existed when the L'Enfant street plan was prepared, but that really seems to be the overwhelmingly dominant factor -- the first states got first dibs, all the latecomers got leftovers.

He does have a point about the Mid-Atlantic and most of the southern states in the original 13 getting short shrift compared to their northern counterparts -- but then, aside from Virginia, at the founding how prominent were those states among the original 13?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2015, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 16, 2015, 09:19:24 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2015, 07:52:12 PM
Washington Post: Is Pennsylvania worthy of such a prominent D.C. avenue? A ranking of 50 state-named roads. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/07/16/is-pennsylvania-worthy-of-such-a-prominent-d-c-avenue-a-ranking-of-50-state-named-roads/)

He could have added the generally-unknown Puerto Rico Avenue. I know it's not a state, of course, and that's precisely why I find its existence odd–there's no Guam Avenue or American Samoa Avenue or whatever.

But D.C. does have an Ontario Road (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ontario+Rd+NW,+Washington,+DC+20009/@38.922184,-77.0401769,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x89b7b7dbd646b3d9:0xc29eba10beab4d90) and a Quebec Street (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Quebec+St+NW,+Washington,+DC+20016/@38.93815,-77.070094,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x89b7c9da56e5e3f7:0xa87584cad3e6c193)!

Typical for D.C. Quebec Street is chopped up into several disconnected segments.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2015, 10:52:44 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 16, 2015, 09:19:24 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2015, 07:52:12 PM
Washington Post: Is Pennsylvania worthy of such a prominent D.C. avenue? A ranking of 50 state-named roads. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/07/16/is-pennsylvania-worthy-of-such-a-prominent-d-c-avenue-a-ranking-of-50-state-named-roads/)

He could have added the generally-unknown Puerto Rico Avenue. I know it's not a state, of course, and that's precisely why I find its existence odd–there's no Guam Avenue or American Samoa Avenue or whatever.

Alaska Avenue, N.W. predates its admission as a state by many years.  The 7th Street/Georgia Avenue (70) streetcars used to terminate at Georgia & Alaska (not Georgia & Eastern).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 16, 2015, 11:01:11 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2015, 10:52:44 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 16, 2015, 09:19:24 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2015, 07:52:12 PM
Washington Post: Is Pennsylvania worthy of such a prominent D.C. avenue? A ranking of 50 state-named roads. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/07/16/is-pennsylvania-worthy-of-such-a-prominent-d-c-avenue-a-ranking-of-50-state-named-roads/)

He could have added the generally-unknown Puerto Rico Avenue. I know it's not a state, of course, and that's precisely why I find its existence odd–there's no Guam Avenue or American Samoa Avenue or whatever.

Alaska Avenue, N.W. predates its admission as a state by many years.  The 7th Street/Georgia Avenue (70) streetcars used to terminate at Georgia & Alaska (not Georgia & Eastern).

Didn't know that, as its admission as a state was before I was born. Thanks for the info. I can picture the Morris Miller liquor store at that intersection because my father used to go there to stock up two or three times a year when I was a kid, but I have not been to that store in many years and not since I've been of legal drinking age.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on July 16, 2015, 11:43:54 PM
Apparently not taken into account is that the current Georgia Ave, which extends far into Maryland, is not the original use of that name in DC.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 17, 2015, 06:49:42 AM
QuoteApparently not taken into account is that the current Georgia Ave, which extends far into Maryland, is not the original use of that name in DC.

No, but it does get mentioned in other related stories (I believe it was referenced on GGW)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Henry on July 17, 2015, 01:14:05 PM
Interesting read there, especially when the avenue where the White House is located has no instances in which it ranks first (but it does rank second on at least two lists).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 17, 2015, 02:01:42 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 17, 2015, 06:49:42 AM
QuoteApparently not taken into account is that the current Georgia Ave, which extends far into Maryland, is not the original use of that name in DC.

No, but it does get mentioned in other related stories (I believe it was referenced on GGW)

I know that what is now Md. 97 extended at least as far north as Brookeville in Montgomery County by the time of the James Madison Administration.  When British troops burned Washington in 1814, President Madison fled to Virginia and then north into Maryland, and the Town of Brookeville became the "U.S. Capital for a Day." (http://townofbrookevillemd.org/)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on July 18, 2015, 08:42:03 AM
My point was that until 1908, the road with the name of Ga. Ave. was a different road entirely-one now named Potomac Ave.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 25, 2015, 10:11:09 PM
Washington Post: Washington-area motorists are losing their "˜gunslinger' (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/washington-area-motorists-are-losing-their-gunslinger/2015/07/25/2ab7f14e-31b1-11e5-97ae-30a30cca95d7_story.html)

QuoteFor 21 years, Lon Anderson has considered himself a "gunslinger"  against traffic jams, a "gladiator"  against drunken driving and the "staunch defender"  of nearly 4 million beleaguered motorists.

QuoteAs director of public and governmental relations for AAA Mid-Atlantic, Anderson has been the Washington region's most visible and influential motorist advocate, verbally flogging area governments to crack down on unsafe drivers, fix dangerous roads and ease some of the worst gridlock in the nation. His weapon: catchy, go-for-the-throat sound bites that the media – and lawmakers – simply can't ignore.

QuoteHe's accused "money-grubbing"  District officials of turning one particularly profitable speed camera into "an old-fashioned, money-making, motorist rip-off speed trap right out of the "˜Dukes of Hazzard.' "  Public officials in "Rip Van Maryland,"  he says, have snoozed while Virginia has added express toll lanes to the Capital Beltway and built the Silver Line Metrorail extension.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: skluth on July 28, 2015, 12:29:15 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2015, 10:50:14 PM
Typical for D.C. Quebec Street is chopped up into several disconnected segments.

An appropriate street name for a province that has wanted to do the same to Canada.   :D
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Henry on July 31, 2015, 12:23:15 PM
I've always wondered why there has never been a West Capitol Street to complement the existing East, North and South Capitol Streets. Maybe it was never planned in the first place, due to the National Mall being there?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 31, 2015, 12:27:53 PM
Quote from: Henry on July 31, 2015, 12:23:15 PM
I've always wondered why there has never been a West Capitol Street to complement the existing East, North and South Capitol Streets. Maybe it was never planned in the first place, due to the National Mall being there?

The National Mall is where a West Capitol Street would have run.

As far as I know, there was never one planned.  Before the National Mall was the Mall, parts of it were swamps, and I believe there was a railroad yard near the U.S. Capitol.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 31, 2015, 01:07:59 PM
The Mall itself used to have two more streets along its length east of 14th Street than it does today. You know where Madison and Jefferson Drives are, the two streets on the Mall side of the museums (not to be confused with Madison Place, which is where the Federal Circuit's courthouse is near the White House). There used to be Washington and Adams Drives along the central part of the Mall inside the two streets that remain today. Both are now crushed-gravel paths. I don't know when they were converted except I believe the work was done by the time Pope St. John Paul II celebrated Mass on the Mall in 1979.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 31, 2015, 04:55:39 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 31, 2015, 01:07:59 PM
The Mall itself used to have two more streets along its length east of 14th Street than it does today. You know where Madison and Jefferson Drives are, the two streets on the Mall side of the museums (not to be confused with Madison Place, which is where the Federal Circuit's courthouse is near the White House). There used to be Washington and Adams Drives along the central part of the Mall inside the two streets that remain today. Both are now crushed-gravel paths. I don't know when they were converted except I believe the work was done by the time Pope St. John Paul II celebrated Mass on the Mall in 1979.

It was also done because the NPS (correctly) felt that workers in the surrounding office buildings were using those streets for all-day free parking.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 15, 2015, 07:42:04 AM
WTOP has another installment of the "Ghost Roads" series they began last year (a link to the first installment may be found on the final slide):

http://wtop.com/media-galleries/2015/10/ghost-roads-forgotten-roads-d-c-photos/slide/1/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on October 15, 2015, 08:13:36 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 31, 2015, 01:07:59 PM
There used to be Washington and Adams Drives along the central part of the Mall inside the two streets that remain today. Both are now crushed-gravel paths. I don't know when they were converted except I believe the work was done by the time Pope St. John Paul II celebrated Mass on the Mall in 1979.

http://bikearlingtonforum.com/showthread.php?8562-History-of-the-gravel-paths-on-the-National-Mall

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on October 15, 2015, 08:19:45 AM
I also believe that the parking garage beneath the National Air & Space Museum was built to make up for the missing parking spaces that both Washington and Adams Drives' had before they were converted.

If memory serves me correctly, the museum was built circa the time the mall was renovated.  That would make sense.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 15, 2015, 09:14:10 AM
I believe the museum opened in 1976. The parking garage used to be open to the public but was closed in 1986 due to security fears after the Gulf of Sidra incident and related military activity involving Libya. I do not know what the garage has been used for since then.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 15, 2015, 09:55:34 AM
My mother is (was?) a member of the Smithsonian Institute, and she has mentioned to me that there was a time that as a Smithsonian member, she was able to drive and park for free in the garages at least under and around some of museums on the Mall (if not all of them). That would have been the 1980s and early 1990s. My guess is that the privilege went away post WTC (93), Oklahoma City, and the African embassy truck bombings. My understanding is that those events were all big for changes security and design around federal buildings in the DC area, and that 9/11 only accelerated it.

Slightly related, DDOT's Circulator bus now has a route effectively circling the Mall, with an origin/ending at Union Station. And at $1 (and free SmartTrip transfers) much cheaper than the old Tourmobile, which had for a long time had a right of first refusal against mass transit on the mall. The old Tourmobile buses can still be seen in the area, operating under the Martz brand.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 02, 2015, 12:31:43 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 10, 2014, 10:32:48 PM
Washington Post: Severance guilty in three high-profile killings in Alexandria (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/severance-guilty-in-three-high-profile-killings-in-alexandria/2015/11/02/325cafb6-79b4-11e5-a958-d889faf561dc_story.html)

3 life sentences for convicted Alexandria killer (http://wtop.com/alexandria/2016/01/convicted-alexandria-killer-sentenced-for-3-murders/)

QuoteFAIRFAX, Va. – Convicted murderer Charles Severance was sentenced to serve three life terms in prison for charges that he shot and killed three prominent Alexandria citizens.

QuoteIn November, a Fairfax County jury found Severance guilty of 10 counts including murder charges for the deaths of Nancy Dunning, Ron Kirby and Ruthanne Lodato.

QuoteJudge Randy Bellows stuck with the jury's recommended three life sentences in prison plus 48 years and a $400,000 fine. The three life sentences are to be served consecutively meaning that if some of the murder convictions were reversed on appeal or the prison sentences reduced, he could still serve the remainder of his life behind bars. Virginia does not offer the chance for parole to convicted felons.

QuoteBellows said he found no mitigating factors that would offset what he called Severance's "cruel"  acts. The judge spoke of the blood-soaked and bullet riddled bodies left for the victim's family members to find, of grandchildren who won't know their grandparents and of lives cut short before rendering his decision.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 08, 2015, 02:38:40 PM
Washington Post: You've heard about surge pricing. Get ready for surge-priced parking. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/youve-heard-about-surge-pricing-get-ready-for-surge-priced-parking/2015/11/07/4ff53f80-83ef-11e5-8ba6-cec48b74b2a7_story.html)

QuoteSpeed cameras and expensive tickets, motorcade-induced gridlock, parking signs harder to decipher than CIA code – that is, if you can find an open spot.

QuoteFace it, driving in the District can be a nightmare. Now, the city is testing a program under which the price of parking at meters in one of the city's most popular neighborhoods would change based on demand.

QuoteThis "surge pricing"  means you could be paying $8 an hour to park in Chinatown-Penn Quarter at peak times.

QuoteYou read that right. $8. An hour.

QuoteCity officials say the idea is to reduce downtown traffic congestion, 25 percent of which, studies show, is caused by vehicles circling the block looking for a parking space. It is simple supply and demand, they say.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 13, 2015, 07:30:07 PM
Washington Post: WAMU drops longtime traffic reporter Jerry Edwards, announces end to morning rush hour reports (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/11/13/wamu-drops-longtime-traffic-reporter-jerry-edwards-announces-end-to-morning-rush-hour-reports/)

QuoteThose who have depended on longtime traffic reporter Jerry Edwards to help them navigate around the Beltway or tell them when to avoid Interstate 66, you'll have to find another source for your traffic news in the morning.

QuoteWAMU announced Friday that it is dropping Edwards's morning rush hour traffic reports to focus on news tied to transportation issues and major transportation events. The move comes almost a year after it dropped its evening traffic updates.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 14, 2015, 04:36:15 PM
Washington Post: No streetcar yet, but the parking crackdown is "˜round the clock' (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/no-streetcar-yet-but-the-parking-crackdown-is-round-the-clock/2015/11/14/b5327616-8498-11e5-a7ca-6ab6ec20f839_story.html)

QuoteParking in the booming and trendy H Street corridor has become an even more grueling ordeal since the city began testing the problem-plagued streetcar more than a year ago.

QuoteThe streetcar still isn't carrying passengers. Yet, while the empty red trolley treks up and down the 2.2-mile stretch from Union Station to the Anacostia River in Northeast, city workers are monitoring the streets and ticketing vehicles and motorists who breach the white line that separates parking and streetcar lanes.

Quote"They are writing tickets like crazy,"  said Rebecca Antone, the manager at PoBoy Jim Bar and Grill, between Seventh and Eighth streets NE. "And on top of that, the streetcar has been testing for a year, but does nothing for our business."

QuoteThe D.C. Department of Public Works stepped up parking enforcement when the streetcar testing phase began in July 2014, and city officials said then that the line would be carrying passengers by the end of 2014.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on November 14, 2015, 05:44:24 PM
I doubt the streetcar will ever amount to much. The only streetcars I've ever ridden on have been in Boston (Green Line) and Europe. In all of those instances, the streetcar had its own right-of-way for most of the time.

DC would have been better suited to institute rush-hour HOV/bus lanes on major corridor (16th street Silver Spring, Penn Ave, etc) and kept to that. Could have folded over nicely into a region-wide BRT network.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 14, 2015, 06:06:22 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on November 14, 2015, 05:44:24 PM
I doubt the streetcar will ever amount to much. The only streetcars I've ever ridden on have been in Boston (Green Line) and Europe. In all of those instances, the streetcar had its own right-of-way for most of the time.

DC would have been better suited to institute rush-hour HOV/bus lanes on major corridor (16th street Silver Spring, Penn Ave, etc) and kept to that. Could have folded over nicely into a region-wide BRT network.

D.C. once had a very good streetcar network. 

Some of the lines (ironically including the one on H Street, N.E.) were converted to bus service because the streetcars could not keep up with demand (the H Street/Benning Road line went in 1947, the first postwar abandonment of streetcar service in D.C.). 

Before World War II,  streetcars on Connecticut Avenue, N.W. (and into Chevy Chase, Maryland and beyond to Kensington) were converted to bus, as was a line that ran north from Wisconsin Avenue and Western Avenue - it roughly followed Wisconsin Avenue/Rockville Pike to downtown Rockville; and the Washington, Baltimore and Annapolis (WB&A) interurban line was shut-down due to bankruptcy in 1935 (the big WB&A cars ran  into D.C. from Seat Pleasant to downtown over the streetcar system's rails, including Benning Road and H Street, N.E.).

In 1956, after a nasty transit strike, Congress revoked the transit franchise from Louis Wolfson's Capital Transit Company (CTCo) and awarded it to O. Roy Chalk's D.C. Transit System, Inc.  Chalk's company was required, as a condition of taking the transit franchise, to abandon the entire streetcar system by the early 1960's and run a bus-only system.  Chalk wanted to keep the streetcars running (the tracks and cars were in good condition), but did as he was told (remember there was no elected local government in D.C. of any kind back then), and the last of the streetcars rolled on D.C. streets in 1962.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on November 14, 2015, 06:20:25 PM
The history is interesting but isn't germane. No way there will be a city-wide streetcar network.

DC's interests would be served by separated Blue Line down M Street and bus lanes in 16th Street. They just got the new articulated buses this week for the 16th Street line. Give the buses their own lane to run down. For Christ's sake it's the busiest bus corridor in the region.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 19, 2015, 03:57:38 PM
I think the subway system was built too extensively. Given that it's now falling into immense disrepair, and nowhere near enough money to maintain it, supports that belief in my mind. And no streetcars. The time for streetcars is long past. They say roads are an outdated technology. Well, in most places, I believe rail is an even more outdated technology. Stick with improving the bus system.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on November 19, 2015, 08:07:13 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on November 14, 2015, 05:44:24 PMDC would have been better suited to institute rush-hour HOV/bus lanes on major corridor (16th street Silver Spring, Penn Ave, etc) and kept to that. Could have folded over nicely into a region-wide BRT network.

As long as "numbnuts" (borrowing a verbal schtick of my mother's) don't habitually, illegally, drive their cars onto dedicated BRT roadways (especially if they're separated from the main lanes by medians), it might work.  I wonder what the typical penalties are for violating BRT's?  More brutal than for a trucker attempting to drive on the metro NYC parkways (or, since this is the DC thread, the BWP, GWMP, Rock Creek, Suitland, I-66 inside the Beltway, etc., etc.)?

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on November 19, 2015, 08:13:47 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on November 19, 2015, 03:57:38 PM
I think the subway system was built too extensively. Given that it's now falling into immense disrepair, and nowhere near enough money to maintain it, supports that belief in my mind. And no streetcars. The time for streetcars is long past. They say roads are an outdated technology. Well, in most places, I believe rail is an even more outdated technology. Stick with improving the bus system.

The issue is right-of-way. You can build as new or big a bus you like, but you need dedicated lanes to make it move quickly.

Nobody wants to give up vehicle lanes to make a bus lane (even if passenger throughput improves), so the only other option is to build a separate right-of-way, which means tunneling.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/bus-lanes-make-sense-until-somebody-proposes-one-for-a-specific-area/2015/11/17/5e0ddd50-8879-11e5-be8b-1ae2e4f50f76_story.html

QuoteWhy not create dedicated bus-only lanes on the arterials into the District?

QuoteThis is what we want – in theory – but we've done a poor job executing the idea throughout the Washington region. Why? Because there is nothing more attractive to commuters than driving, preferably by themselves.

QuoteBetter bus service should be one of the easiest ways to improve transportation in urban areas. The vehicles are cheap compared with rail cars, tracks and new highways. The bus-only lanes are part of the existing infrastructure, which also cuts costs and limits disruption.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on November 19, 2015, 08:15:31 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 14, 2015, 06:06:22 PM
(T)he last of the streetcars rolled on D.C. streets in 1962.

Dramatically illustrating this discontinuance:

Footage of JFK's inaugural parade (that I have seen anyway) shows streetcar tracks conspicuous in PA Avenue (I believe it was a year later [January 1962] that the last car ran).  Hard to march on, perhaps.  :) OTOH footage of his funeral cortege shows said avenue's tracks already paved over less than two years after that last run.

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on November 19, 2015, 09:08:02 PM
QuoteI think the subway system was built too extensively. Given that it's now falling into immense disrepair, and nowhere near enough money to maintain it, supports that belief in my mind.

By this rationale, there are several urban freeways that were built too extensively, as they're falling into disrepair without enough money to maintain them...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 20, 2015, 05:40:41 PM
Quote from: froggie on November 19, 2015, 09:08:02 PM
QuoteI think the subway system was built too extensively. Given that it's now falling into immense disrepair, and nowhere near enough money to maintain it, supports that belief in my mind.

By this rationale, there are several urban freeways that were built too extensively, as they're falling into disrepair without enough money to maintain them...

Or maybe we have politicians that set per-gallon motor fuel tax rates and are terrified to raise them, no matter how much they deteriorate?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on November 21, 2015, 10:15:45 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 20, 2015, 05:40:41 PM
Quote from: froggie on November 19, 2015, 09:08:02 PM
QuoteI think the subway system was built too extensively. Given that it's now falling into immense disrepair, and nowhere near enough money to maintain it, supports that belief in my mind.

By this rationale, there are several urban freeways that were built too extensively, as they're falling into disrepair without enough money to maintain them...

Or maybe we have politicians that set per-gallon motor fuel tax rates and are terrified to raise them, no matter how much they deteriorate?

People don't like taxes. Politicians are just doing what the people want.

I think you have this make-believe fantasy world where politicians have the wisdom and foresight to see the issues facing infrastructure and raise taxes, but they're just "afraid" to raise them.

I got news for you. Taxes aren't going up anytime soon. You can hold your breath till the cows come home, but the federal trough for highways is going to be (relatively) dry for quite some time.

But keep crossing your fingers and waiting for politicians to stop "being afraid".
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on November 21, 2015, 12:25:43 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on November 21, 2015, 10:15:45 AM
People don't like taxes. Politicians are just doing what the people want.

I think you have this make-believe fantasy world where politicians have the wisdom and foresight to see the issues facing infrastructure and raise taxes, but they're just "afraid" to raise them.

I got news for you. Taxes aren't going up anytime soon. You can hold your breath till the cows come home, but the federal trough for highways is going to be (relatively) dry for quite some time.

But keep crossing your fingers and waiting for politicians to stop "being afraid".

Virginia just recently (under the previous Republican governor) did a tax increase, to support more transportation spending (not by a lot, but better than nothing), despite a legislature dominated by anti-taxers. It took a lot of hand-waving and wailing and gnashing of teeth to get it done, but it got done. Virginia is not alone, among the states, in biting the bullet to raise funds (by gas taxes, tolls, etc.) to fund transportation improvements.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 08:38:56 AM
Virginia's was a little different from a "pure" tax increase because they didn't simply raise the fixed number of cents per gallon (which had been 17.5¢). Instead they repealed that and replaced it with a percentage-based tax on the six-month average wholesale price of gas. That percentage was originally set at 3.5% pending Congress's decision on whether to require online merchants with no brick-and-mortar locations in a state to collect that state's sales tax; when Congress failed to do so, the new Virginia tax went up to 5.1%. (They also raised the sales tax at the same time.)

The potential risk in Virginia's system is, of course, that if the wholesale price of gas dropped considerably for a long enough period, the percentage-based calculation means lower tax revenue. I saw 87 octane for $1.68 a gallon yesterday at the Sheetz station in Wilderness at the corner of Routes 3 and 20 (93 octane, which my car takes, was $2.28; I wound up paying $2.49 at a Shell near Pantops because the Sheetz was too crowded for anything more than a toilet stop).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on November 22, 2015, 08:24:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 08:38:56 AM
Virginia's was a little different from a "pure" tax increase because they didn't simply raise the fixed number of cents per gallon (which had been 17.5¢). Instead they repealed that and replaced it with a percentage-based tax on the six-month average wholesale price of gas. That percentage was originally set at 3.5% pending Congress's decision on whether to require online merchants with no brick-and-mortar locations in a state to collect that state's sales tax; when Congress failed to do so, the new Virginia tax went up to 5.1%. (They also raised the sales tax at the same time.)

The potential risk in Virginia's system is, of course, that if the wholesale price of gas dropped considerably for a long enough period, the percentage-based calculation means lower tax revenue. I saw 87 octane for $1.68 a gallon yesterday at the Sheetz station in Wilderness at the corner of Routes 3 and 20 (93 octane, which my car takes, was $2.28; I wound up paying $2.49 at a Shell near Pantops because the Sheetz was too crowded for anything more than a toilet stop).

A six-month period from when?  How does the calculation work?

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on November 22, 2015, 11:38:33 PM
Six-month moving average, I presume.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on November 23, 2015, 07:29:36 AM
Quote from: ixnay on November 22, 2015, 08:24:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 08:38:56 AM
Virginia's was a little different from a "pure" tax increase because they didn't simply raise the fixed number of cents per gallon (which had been 17.5¢). Instead they repealed that and replaced it with a percentage-based tax on the six-month average wholesale price of gas. That percentage was originally set at 3.5% pending Congress's decision on whether to require online merchants with no brick-and-mortar locations in a state to collect that state's sales tax; when Congress failed to do so, the new Virginia tax went up to 5.1%. (They also raised the sales tax at the same time.)

The potential risk in Virginia's system is, of course, that if the wholesale price of gas dropped considerably for a long enough period, the percentage-based calculation means lower tax revenue. I saw 87 octane for $1.68 a gallon yesterday at the Sheetz station in Wilderness at the corner of Routes 3 and 20 (93 octane, which my car takes, was $2.28; I wound up paying $2.49 at a Shell near Pantops because the Sheetz was too crowded for anything more than a toilet stop).

A six-month period from when?  How does the calculation work?

ixnay

I don't know. The way I described it is the way all the news coverage described it. I'd look up the statute except I just don't have time at this particular time of morning.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on November 23, 2015, 08:09:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 23, 2015, 07:29:36 AM
Quote from: ixnay on November 22, 2015, 08:24:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 22, 2015, 08:38:56 AM
Virginia's was a little different from a "pure" tax increase because they didn't simply raise the fixed number of cents per gallon (which had been 17.5¢). Instead they repealed that and replaced it with a percentage-based tax on the six-month average wholesale price of gas. That percentage was originally set at 3.5% pending Congress's decision on whether to require online merchants with no brick-and-mortar locations in a state to collect that state's sales tax; when Congress failed to do so, the new Virginia tax went up to 5.1%. (They also raised the sales tax at the same time.)

The potential risk in Virginia's system is, of course, that if the wholesale price of gas dropped considerably for a long enough period, the percentage-based calculation means lower tax revenue. I saw 87 octane for $1.68 a gallon yesterday at the Sheetz station in Wilderness at the corner of Routes 3 and 20 (93 octane, which my car takes, was $2.28; I wound up paying $2.49 at a Shell near Pantops because the Sheetz was too crowded for anything more than a toilet stop).

A six-month period from when?  How does the calculation work?

ixnay

I don't know. The way I described it is the way all the news coverage described it. I'd look up the statute except I just don't have time at this particular time of morning.

Hope this helps...

http://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title58.1/chapter22/section58.1-2217/

From subsection B. ...

B. There is hereby levied a tax at the rate of seventeen and one-half cents per gallon on diesel fuel. Beginning January 1, 2015, the tax rate shall be six percent of the statewide average wholesale price of a gallon of diesel fuel for the applicable base period, excluding federal and state excise taxes, as determined by the Commissioner.

In computing the average wholesale price of a gallon of diesel fuel, the Commissioner shall use the period from December 1 through May 31 as the base period for such determination for the immediately following period beginning July 1 and ending December 31, inclusive. The period from June 1 through November 30 shall be the next base period for the immediately following period beginning January 1 and ending June 30, inclusive. In no case shall the average wholesale price computed for purposes of this section be less than the statewide average wholesale price of a gallon of diesel fuel on February 20, 2013.


ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 16, 2015, 12:58:41 PM
Washington Post: D.C. plans to add 100 more traffic cameras (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2015/12/16/d-c-plans-to-add-100-more-traffic-cameras/)

QuoteOver the next two years, drivers in the District will have to be watchful of 100 more traffic cameras, 24/7 school zones where speeds are limited to 15 mph, and fines of up to $1,000 for speeding violations.

QuoteThose are among several measures Mayor Muriel Bowser (D) is unveiling Wednesday as part of her commitment to eliminating traffic fatalities by 2024. Her "Vision Zero"  action plan lays out strategies for  enforcement, public education and street engineering, and also is expected to expand the city's sidewalk and bicycle network.

QuoteThe scores of additional cameras are likely to upset drivers who have widely criticized the city's 15-year-old automated traffic enforcement program as a money-generator and a tool the city uses to penalize drivers as it pushes the use of public transit, biking and walking.

QuoteBut D.C. transportation officials say it is justified because data suggests the photo enforcement has proven to be a successful tool for reducing crashes and fatalities.  The "Vision Zero"  action plan urges the city to "rapidly deploy additional cameras,"  and presents data that suggests declines of more than 16 percent in crashes and a 20 percent reduction in injuries from 2012 to 2014.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mariethefoxy on December 16, 2015, 02:24:22 PM
why in the holy hell do you need a 24/7 school zone unless you're trying to raise revenue in a backhanded way?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 16, 2015, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on December 16, 2015, 02:24:22 PM
why in the holy hell do you need a 24/7 school zone unless you're trying to raise revenue in a backhanded way?

Ideally the 24x7 school zone wouldn't raise a penny since hopefully everyone would be following the speed limit. Anyway, schools have playgrounds and schools are in neigborhoods. What's so bad about going 15 MPH through neigborhood city streets?

A school zone is likely no more than half a mile. Let's say that for the half mile, you're slowed from 25 MPH to 15 MPH. That means your trip is now 120 seconds instead of 72 seconds. I gaurantee you can make up those 48 seconds.

Meanwhile, the force behind a collision at 15 MPH is almost 1/3 that of 25 MPH (.5MV^2).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on December 16, 2015, 11:12:17 PM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on December 16, 2015, 02:24:22 PM
unless you're trying to raise revenue in a backhanded way
Exactly. Ignore the Alexandria troll.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 18, 2015, 10:29:33 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 16, 2015, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on December 16, 2015, 02:24:22 PM
why in the holy hell do you need a 24/7 school zone unless you're trying to raise revenue in a backhanded way?

Ideally the 24x7 school zone wouldn't raise a penny since hopefully everyone would be following the speed limit. Anyway, schools have playgrounds and schools are in neigborhoods. What's so bad about going 15 MPH through neigborhood city streets?

Perhaps if D.C. has built the highways that would have been better-served to those (longer) trips, this would not be a problem.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 16, 2015, 03:10:44 PM
A school zone is likely no more than half a mile. Let's say that for the half mile, you're slowed from 25 MPH to 15 MPH. That means your trip is now 120 seconds instead of 72 seconds. I gaurantee you can make up those 48 seconds.

You forgot to add-in  traffic signals delays, pretty common all around D.C.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 16, 2015, 03:10:44 PM
Meanwhile, the force behind a collision at 15 MPH is almost 1/3 that of 25 MPH (.5MV^2).

Nice if that traffic was not on those streets. But it is, thanks to deliberate policy decisions made many years ago.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 18, 2015, 10:32:16 AM
Quote from: Alps on December 16, 2015, 11:12:17 PM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on December 16, 2015, 02:24:22 PM
unless you're trying to raise revenue in a backhanded way
Exactly. Ignore the Alexandria troll.

Better way to flight back is with GPS programs that allow the pinpointing the location of D.C. commuter tax collection stations speed cameras, which is an effective method of reducing the revenue that they collect - ideally to less than the cost of installing and servicing the cameras.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on December 18, 2015, 10:33:59 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacusPerhaps if D.C. has built the highways that would have been better-served to those (longer) trips, this would not be a problem.

I actually doubt this now.  DC has enough density to where we'd still have the problem on neighborhood streets and local arterials.  Nevermind that those highways would've exasperated the parking situation downtown.  That land is far more valuable to all with development than with parking lots.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 18, 2015, 10:41:36 AM
Quote from: froggie on December 18, 2015, 10:33:59 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacusPerhaps if D.C. has built the highways that would have been better-served to those (longer) trips, this would not be a problem.

I actually doubt this now.  DC has enough density to where we'd still have the problem on neighborhood streets and local arterials.  Nevermind that those highways would've exasperated the parking situation downtown.  That land is far more valuable to all with development than with parking lots.

Do not knock parking in the District of Columbia (except on Capitol Hill, where most employees have "free" (taxpayer-subsidized) parking).  Without the revenue that D.C. collects from private parking and from on-street meters and parking fines generally, there would be a lot less transit service in D.C.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 18, 2015, 05:41:05 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 18, 2015, 10:32:16 AM
Quote from: Alps on December 16, 2015, 11:12:17 PM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on December 16, 2015, 02:24:22 PM
unless you're trying to raise revenue in a backhanded way
Exactly. Ignore the Alexandria troll.

Better way to flight back is with GPS programs that allow the pinpointing the location of D.C. commuter tax collection stations speed cameras, which is an effective method of reducing the revenue that they collect - ideally to less than the cost of installing and servicing the cameras.

What's funny is that every time I, as a commuter, have driven by a speed camera, I haven't paid a commuter tax fee. How does that jive with your characterization of speed cameras as a commuter tax collection station?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 18, 2015, 05:57:32 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 18, 2015, 10:29:33 AM
Perhaps if D.C. has built the highways that would have been better-served to those (longer) trips, this would not be a problem.

So you think people are justified to speed through school zones simply because you believe a highway should have been built there several decades ago...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2015, 06:17:09 PM
"How does that jive?"

You talkin' jive, bro?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Pete from Boston on December 18, 2015, 07:02:40 PM
Stewardess, I speak jive.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 18, 2015, 07:25:11 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 18, 2015, 05:41:05 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 18, 2015, 10:32:16 AM
Quote from: Alps on December 16, 2015, 11:12:17 PM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on December 16, 2015, 02:24:22 PM
unless you're trying to raise revenue in a backhanded way
Exactly. Ignore the Alexandria troll.

Better way to flight back is with GPS programs that allow the pinpointing the location of D.C. commuter tax collection stations speed cameras, which is an effective method of reducing the revenue that they collect - ideally to less than the cost of installing and servicing the cameras.

What's funny is that every time I, as a commuter, have driven by a speed camera, I haven't paid a commuter tax fee. How does that jive with your characterization of speed cameras as a commuter tax collection station?

My TomTom GPS unit (which I always run when driving in D.C.) knows where most of them are. 

Besides that, I do not generally speed when driving (in D.C. or elsewhere), and besides, speeding in the District of Columbia is generally a waste of fuel and brakes.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on December 18, 2015, 08:53:08 PM
QuoteDo not knock parking in the District of Columbia (except on Capitol Hill, where most employees have "free" (taxpayer-subsidized) parking).  Without the revenue that D.C. collects from private parking and from on-street meters and parking fines generally, there would be a lot less transit service in D.C.

I will knock parking in this case, because full development would do far more to provide funding for transit than the parking fees/revenue you're referring to.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 18, 2015, 08:53:23 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2015, 06:17:09 PM
"How does that jive?"

You talkin' jive, bro?

I ain't no jive turkey.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 27, 2015, 03:42:23 PM
Washington Post: Top 10 traffic, transit stories of 2015 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/top-10-traffic-transit-stories-of-2015/2015/12/26/7931ae64-9868-11e5-b499-76cbec161973_story.html)

QuoteThe state of the Washington region's transit system was the dominant transportation story of 2015, and rarely in a good way. Metro held center stage, but it wasn't the only attention-getting performance of 2015, and many of the other efforts were positive.

QuoteHere's a look back at the year's most significant developments in local travel.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 27, 2015, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 18, 2015, 08:53:08 PM
I will knock parking in this case, because full development would do far more to provide funding for transit than the parking fees/revenue you're referring to.

I am not at all convinced.  As long as D.C. has been providing subsidies for Metrorail and its predecessor in the city, the private D.C. Transit System, Inc., those subsidy dollars have come from motor fuel taxes and other transportation-related fees paid to the city government.

Not general fund dollars, which is where property tax revenues go.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 27, 2015, 04:57:13 PM
This all goes to show why reserved funds and dedicated funding is a pointless and ultimately self-defeating endeavor. DC should be able to get the money from wherever the want.

To push the analogy to the federal level, the nature of the Highway Trust Fund funding mechanisms hasn't stopped Congress from subsidizing the "self-sustaining Highway Trust Fund" (this illusion needs to be banished from our lexicon, BTW) to the tune of billions each year from the general fund. Congress does it because it sees the highway subsidies as an important national interest. DC should be able to subsidize its transportation priorities accordingly.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 27, 2015, 09:12:23 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 27, 2015, 04:57:13 PM
This all goes to show why reserved funds and dedicated funding is a pointless and ultimately self-defeating endeavor. DC should be able to get the money from wherever the want.

I disagree, though I do believe that D.C. should be able to fund its municipal government in the best way as determined by its elected mayor and council.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 27, 2015, 04:57:13 PM
To push the analogy to the federal level, the nature of the Highway Trust Fund funding mechanisms hasn't stopped Congress from subsidizing the "self-sustaining Highway Trust Fund" (this illusion needs to be banished from our lexicon, BTW) to the tune of billions each year from the general fund. Congress does it because it sees the highway subsidies as an important national interest. DC should be able to subsidize its transportation priorities accordingly.

That's cowardice on the part of the congressional "leadership" and others. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 27, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
What you call cowardice, politicians might call survival instincts, but that's another issue for another forum. The fact is that our Highway Trust Fund now requires billion-dollar subsidies on an annual basis.

And unless you have some sort of obsession with the HTF being "self-sustaining", it really doesn't matter how it gets its funding. I imagine that some older highway advocates might be really wed to the idea of gas tax "user fees" fully funding the HTF, but ultimately, you could fund it with the monies derived from the sales tax on frozen yogurt and it wouldn't matter...money is money.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mariethefoxy on December 28, 2015, 03:25:45 AM
I don't get the really low speed limits on I-395, is there any real reason besides they can get a lot more revenue with the camera tickets to put I-395 as 40MPH in the Southeast Freeway segment?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 28, 2015, 08:12:24 AM

Quote from: mariethefoxy on December 28, 2015, 03:25:45 AM
I don't get the really low speed limits on I-395, is there any real reason besides they can get a lot more revenue with the camera tickets to put I-395 as 40MPH in the Southeast Freeway segment?

Bad road design with closely-spaced ramps and left-side blind merges on the segment between the 14th Street Bridge and the tunnel. The ramp coming from the 9th Street Tunnel is especially tricky.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 08:29:54 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 28, 2015, 08:12:24 AM

Quote from: mariethefoxy on December 28, 2015, 03:25:45 AM
I don't get the really low speed limits on I-395, is there any real reason besides they can get a lot more revenue with the camera tickets to put I-395 as 40MPH in the Southeast Freeway segment?

Bad road design with closely-spaced ramps and left-side blind merges on the segment between the 14th Street Bridge and the tunnel. The ramp coming from the 9th Street Tunnel is especially tricky.

Left unsaid, of course, is volume as well.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on December 28, 2015, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 08:29:54 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 28, 2015, 08:12:24 AM

Quote from: mariethefoxy on December 28, 2015, 03:25:45 AM
I don't get the really low speed limits on I-395, is there any real reason besides they can get a lot more revenue with the camera tickets to put I-395 as 40MPH in the Southeast Freeway segment?

Bad road design with closely-spaced ramps and left-side blind merges on the segment between the 14th Street Bridge and the tunnel. The ramp coming from the 9th Street Tunnel is especially tricky.

Left unsaid, of course, is volume as well.
That's because speed limit is independent of volume. Set properly, the speed limit is the 85th percentile of free-flow speed - i.e. when traffic is light enough to go the speed that the roadway design warrants.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 12:14:49 PM
I can't imagine max free-flow conditions being any safer than 55 MPH, based on the reasons 95hoo provided. 85% of that is 45 so I guess the speed limit is justified on that factor as well. Free-flow in that area, however, is more of a concept than anything else. Not sure I've ever seen it un-congested.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on December 28, 2015, 12:30:02 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 12:14:49 PM
I can't imagine max free-flow conditions being any safer than 55 MPH, based on the reasons 95hoo provided. 85% of that is 45 so I guess the speed limit is justified on that factor as well. Free-flow in that area, however, is more of a concept than anything else. Not sure I've ever seen it un-congested.

3am traffic is usually free-flowing -- and the threat of speed cameras or other enforcement is about the only thing slowing traffic to within 20 mph over the posted limit.

As noted above, I-395 NB has some sub-optimal (or worse) left-side merges. But no such problem SB, so I'd think that direction of traffic could get a higher posted speed limit, even with its closely-spaced on- and off-ramps.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 01:12:14 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 27, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
And unless you have some sort of obsession with the HTF being "self-sustaining", it really doesn't matter how it gets its funding. I imagine that some older highway advocates might be really wed to the idea of gas tax "user fees" fully funding the HTF, but ultimately, you could fund it with the monies derived from the sales tax on frozen yogurt and it wouldn't matter...money is money.
It matters if states and municipalities can't do any transportation planning because nobody knows if there will be any federal highway money in a couple years.  Projects take years to develop, and nobody wants to spend money on a project just to have it all go up in smoke should Congress fail to agree on a bill.  The current system of highway funding is very short term and involves squeezing money from other programs in an attempt to get money to plug the holes in the highway trust fund.  And some of that money comes from measures that the Congressional budget wizards ASSUME will create savings but which past data suggests will actually COST money (basically, Congress was busy pushing an agenda).  It's very much like robbing Peter to pay Paul.  And all this when infrastructure is crumbing into sand.  Like it or not, we very much need solid transportation funding, one that can't be raided for other purposes (the latter of which is EXTREMELY important at the state and local level).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 01:43:10 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 01:12:14 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 27, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
And unless you have some sort of obsession with the HTF being "self-sustaining", it really doesn't matter how it gets its funding. I imagine that some older highway advocates might be really wed to the idea of gas tax "user fees" fully funding the HTF, but ultimately, you could fund it with the monies derived from the sales tax on frozen yogurt and it wouldn't matter...money is money.
It matters if states and municipalities can't do any transportation planning because nobody knows if there will be any federal highway money in a couple years.  Projects take years to develop, and nobody wants to spend money on a project just to have it all go up in smoke should Congress fail to agree on a bill.  The current system of highway funding is very short term and involves squeezing money from other programs in an attempt to get money to plug the holes in the highway trust fund.  And some of that money comes from measures that the Congressional budget wizards ASSUME will create savings but which past data suggests will actually COST money (basically, Congress was busy pushing an agenda).  It's very much like robbing Peter to pay Paul.  And all this when infrastructure is crumbing into sand.  Like it or not, we very much need solid transportation funding, one that can't be raided for other purposes (the latter of which is EXTREMELY important at the state and local level).

Hate to break it to you, but every interest group  (education, housing, parks & rec, etc) believes that its pet cause is extremely important and the money can't go anywhere else. Highways/roads/transportation are just one of many going for the same scarce dollars.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 01:44:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 01:12:14 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 27, 2015, 10:15:49 PM
And unless you have some sort of obsession with the HTF being "self-sustaining", it really doesn't matter how it gets its funding. I imagine that some older highway advocates might be really wed to the idea of gas tax "user fees" fully funding the HTF, but ultimately, you could fund it with the monies derived from the sales tax on frozen yogurt and it wouldn't matter...money is money.
It matters if states and municipalities can't do any transportation planning because nobody knows if there will be any federal highway money in a couple years.  Projects take years to develop, and nobody wants to spend money on a project just to have it all go up in smoke should Congress fail to agree on a bill.  The current system of highway funding is very short term and involves squeezing money from other programs in an attempt to get money to plug the holes in the highway trust fund.  And some of that money comes from measures that the Congressional budget wizards ASSUME will create savings but which past data suggests will actually COST money (basically, Congress was busy pushing an agenda).  It's very much like robbing Peter to pay Paul.  And all this when infrastructure is crumbing into sand.  Like it or not, we very much need solid transportation funding, one that can't be raided for other purposes (the latter of which is EXTREMELY important at the state and local level).

The same could be said of any other major government capital expenditure. See my preceding post (directly above this one).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 06:08:03 PM
Highways, however, RELY on federal funding.  Without federal funding, the projects don't move forward.  At all.  Without federal funding, states can't maintain their roads.  At all.  Many states are already declaring that certain roads and bridges will not be maintained and will just be closed when they are no longer safe.  Homes and businesses accessed through those roads will no longer be accessible.  This is happening NOW, with current funding levels.  And yet you're proposing to let funds dwindle even more and inflation and political whims eat them away.  Advocate for this dystopian future all you want, but don't complain when you can't get to work any more when the few roads still open are incredibly congested.

We've already seen this on a state level.  Many states have high gas taxes but below average transportation funding because the funds are raided.  Pennsylvania, for example, uses transportation dollars for city beautification and then decided to use the PTC to bail out PennDOT and the transit authorities.  Massachusetts is well known for diverting funds and letting things deteriorate to manufacture a crisis to justify keeping tolls on the MassPike.  New York spends the majority of its "transportation" dollars paying off the debt from past governors pet projects.

As of right now, even if a huge windfall happened, nothing could be done with it because there are no projects ready for it.  So what would you do about it, AlexandriaVA (btw, I find it interesting how you chose to name yourself after a municipality some on this forum despise because of its NIMBYISM)?  How would you keep the infrastructure maintained and accessible to all?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on December 28, 2015, 06:33:21 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 12:14:49 PM
I can't imagine max free-flow conditions being any safer than 55 MPH, based on the reasons 95hoo provided. 85% of that is 45 so I guess the speed limit is justified on that factor as well. Free-flow in that area, however, is more of a concept than anything else. Not sure I've ever seen it un-congested.
85th percentile means the speed that 85% of traffic is going equal to or slower. So if 85% of traffic is going no more than 53 mph, your speed limit should be 50 mph or 55 mph.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 09:23:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 06:08:03 PMHighways, however, RELY on federal funding.  Without federal funding, the projects don't move forward

As do defense contractors...as does Medicare/Medicaid...as does [federal function]. Again, everyone's issue is the Most Important One in their own minds. Where the money goes is a political issue, and highways are just one of several lobbies gunning for their piece of the pie.

That, by the way, is the whole point of the political process. The people own that money, and the elected representatives (not unelected transportation bureaucrats) are the stewards of that cash. If the people want gas tax monies to pay for free dessert for everyone, and the legislature signs off, then everyone get their ice cream spoons out.


Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 06:08:03 PM
Without federal funding, states can't maintain their roads...Many states are already declaring that certain roads and bridges will not be maintained and will just be closed when they are no longer safe.  Homes and businesses accessed through those roads will no longer be accessible.  This is happening NOW, with current funding levels. 

Sounds some states built too many roads.

Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 06:08:03 PM
Many states have high gas taxes but below average transportation funding because the funds are raided.
That's my whole point. Money is money. It shouldn't matter how a state government got its hands on it. If you need to spend money on roads, spend it. I don't care if it came from a gas tax, income tax, or bubblegum tax.

Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 06:08:03 PM
How would you keep the infrastructure maintained and accessible to all?

By spending money from the general fund, just as Congress is doing now. And I would spend monies from the general fund on any and all transportation projects that needed funding...highways, mass transits, airports, etc. Because clearly our Highway System is not self-sustaining anymore, and like all other major transportation, it will require subisides.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 09:26:18 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 06:08:03 PM
So what would you do about it, AlexandriaVA (btw, I find it interesting how you chose to name yourself after a municipality some on this forum despise because of its NIMBYISM)?

This seems like a needless non sequitur.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on December 28, 2015, 10:35:25 PM
Quote from: vdeaneSo what would you do about it, AlexandriaVA (btw, I find it interesting how you chose to name yourself after a municipality some on this forum despise because of its NIMBYISM)?

Val, did you stop to consider that perhaps he lives in Alexandria?  Wouldn't be the first time we had a user on here who used their location of residence in their username...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 29, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
Quote from: Alps on December 28, 2015, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 08:29:54 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 28, 2015, 08:12:24 AM

Quote from: mariethefoxy on December 28, 2015, 03:25:45 AM
I don't get the really low speed limits on I-395, is there any real reason besides they can get a lot more revenue with the camera tickets to put I-395 as 40MPH in the Southeast Freeway segment?

Bad road design with closely-spaced ramps and left-side blind merges on the segment between the 14th Street Bridge and the tunnel. The ramp coming from the 9th Street Tunnel is especially tricky.

Left unsaid, of course, is volume as well.
That's because speed limit is independent of volume. Set properly, the speed limit is the 85th percentile of free-flow speed - i.e. when traffic is light enough to go the speed that the roadway design warrants.

You are, of course, correct about 85th percentile.

But perhaps more than any other freeway in the D.C. area, the speeds on the Southeast/Southwest Freeway (I-695 and I-395 respectively) tend to vary widely (and wildly). 

Because it is so short (3.4 miles from the Virginia side of the 14th Street Bridge to the Anacostia River and 3.5 miles in the other direction), the difference in travel time is so small as to be almost irrelevant, regardless of if the speed limit is 35, 40, 45 or 50 (maximum posted limit in the District of Columbia is 50).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on December 29, 2015, 01:58:51 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 09:23:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 06:08:03 PMHighways, however, RELY on federal funding.  Without federal funding, the projects don't move forward

As do defense contractors...as does Medicare/Medicaid...as does [federal function]. Again, everyone's issue is the Most Important One in their own minds. Where the money goes is a political issue, and highways are just one of several lobbies gunning for their piece of the pie.

That, by the way, is the whole point of the political process. The people own that money, and the elected representatives (not unelected transportation bureaucrats) are the stewards of that cash. If the people want gas tax monies to pay for free dessert for everyone, and the legislature signs off, then everyone get their ice cream spoons out.


Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 06:08:03 PM
Without federal funding, states can't maintain their roads...Many states are already declaring that certain roads and bridges will not be maintained and will just be closed when they are no longer safe.  Homes and businesses accessed through those roads will no longer be accessible.  This is happening NOW, with current funding levels. 

Sounds some states built too many roads.

Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 06:08:03 PM
Many states have high gas taxes but below average transportation funding because the funds are raided.
That's my whole point. Money is money. It shouldn't matter how a state government got its hands on it. If you need to spend money on roads, spend it. I don't care if it came from a gas tax, income tax, or bubblegum tax.

Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 06:08:03 PM
How would you keep the infrastructure maintained and accessible to all?

By spending money from the general fund, just as Congress is doing now. And I would spend monies from the general fund on any and all transportation projects that needed funding...highways, mass transits, airports, etc. Because clearly our Highway System is not self-sustaining anymore, and like all other major transportation, it will require subisides.
When the Highway Trust Fund was set up, the federal government made a promise.  A promise is the same thing as an obligation.  And the federal government has been delinquent on that obligation through its refusal to raise the gas tax.  The fact is, the gas tax has been effectively shrinking due to inflation, construction cost increases, etc. for DECADES now, and still nothing has been done.  Now, most of the public is so financially illiterate it's hard to believe they're still even alive, but it is the job of politicians and the media to educate the public so that they are not.  BOTH have been delinquent in that duty, and I suspect maliciously so.  There's been a push for quite some time now for a mileage tax, and I believe that the gas tax and the highway trust fund are belong deliberately sabotaged in order to pave the way for a mileage tax (as that is the only way to get Americans to consent to GPS tracking of their cars, along with whatever other draconian things that will be pushed through with the tax).

Your argument also hinges on whether representatives represent the people in practice in addition to theory.  That is dangerous assumption to make.  Plus, do you really trust the public to make transportation decisions?  I don't.  A large chunk of them doesn't even know that roads cost money to maintain, not just to build.  And the politicians can't be trusted either, as they'll just let everything rot while their pet project gets done.  I can count the number of ethical politicians on one hand, and that includes federal, state, AND local levels combined, as well as foreign governments.  Plus, most people in budget offices don't have a clue how much transportation stuff REALLY costs and give much less money than needed.  It doesn't help that politicians have a habit of slicing and dicing funds to the point where you can't spend it on what you need because every dollar has a very specific purpose that can't go to anything else (especially an issue in NY right now as Cuomo likes to micromanage).

The states I'm thinking of aren't the ones building/proposing pie in the sky things like I-11 between Vegas and I-80.  They're just maintaining the same system they've always had, except the money supply is shrinking every year.

Alas, "money is money" CAUSES these problems.  And taking from the general fund doesn't work.  For example, one of the ways they are "paying" for highway projects is by forcing the IRS to use private debt collectors to collect unpaid taxes.  They claim this will save money.  That's also what they claimed the last time they tried to do that, and it ended up COSTING money.  That's how it works.  They pay for stuff now through "savings" that are supposed to come "later" but then the savings never come.  There are various reasons for this, but it all comes down of incompetent buffoonery (and corruption) in the end.  The civil service system isn't perfect, but I'd argue politicians are worse.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 09:26:18 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2015, 06:08:03 PM
So what would you do about it, AlexandriaVA (btw, I find it interesting how you chose to name yourself after a municipality some on this forum despise because of its NIMBYISM)?

This seems like a needless non sequitur.
In response to that which you deleted last night: the policies of Alexandria affect those outside of Alexandria.  Someone should not be forced to move because of that.

Quote from: froggie on December 28, 2015, 10:35:25 PM
Quote from: vdeaneSo what would you do about it, AlexandriaVA (btw, I find it interesting how you chose to name yourself after a municipality some on this forum despise because of its NIMBYISM)?

Val, did you stop to consider that perhaps he lives in Alexandria?  Wouldn't be the first time we had a user on here who used their location of residence in their username...

I've figured that for a long time now.  Still, it's interesting, especially given that his posting history suggests that he agrees with the NIMBYs.  It's as if he's saying "Ha!  Look at the guy who's from the place that ruined the I-95/395 HOT lane project who is now on a highway forum!".
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 29, 2015, 02:30:08 PM
I suspect that the careers of many on here are predicated on the expectation of federal highway funding, so it makes sense that they would get defensive if the funding is at risk (or perceived to be at risk), but again, I still don't really see how any of this is fundamentally different than any other political issue with interested parties. You could replace the words pertaining to roads with military/security or health/retirement and you'd basically be talking about defense budget or the non-discretionary non-defense budget (Medicare/Medicaid/SS).

Regarding the "promises", politicians have made and broken promises countless times, many of which have been much more serious than delays in highway appropriations. Talk to some Indians about government promises.

Generally people blame legislators when they should be blaming themselves. This appears to be no different.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 29, 2015, 02:35:05 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2015, 01:58:51 PM
The fact is, the gas tax has been effectively shrinking due to inflation, construction cost increases, etc. for DECADES now, and still nothing has been done.
Many voters would fail to see any issue with this. Seeing the way people react to changes in gas prices, I think that most politicians have decided that boosting the gas tax is a non-starter for them.


QuoteNow, most of the public is so financially illiterate it's hard to believe they're still even alive

QuoteYour argument also hinges on whether representatives represent the people in practice in addition to theory.  That is dangerous assumption to make

QuotePlus, do you really trust the public to make transportation decisions?  I don't

QuoteAnd the politicians can't be trusted either, as they'll just let everything rot while their pet project gets done

QuoteThe civil service system isn't perfect, but I'd argue politicians are worse

Contempt for constituents and the people for whom they vote is not typically a winning strategy.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 29, 2015, 02:42:35 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2015, 01:58:51 PM
I've figured that for a long time now.  Still, it's interesting, especially given that his posting history suggests that he agrees with the NIMBYs.  It's as if he's saying "Ha!  Look at the guy who's from the place that ruined the I-95/395 HOT lane project who is now on a highway forum!".

As you may know, 395/95 is the responsibility of the state (Virginia) government as it is part of the Interstate Highway System. Perhaps Arlington and Alexandria carry more clout in Richmond than counties and independent cities in the commuter belt, but that's not my problem.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on December 29, 2015, 02:48:41 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 29, 2015, 02:35:05 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2015, 01:58:51 PM
The fact is, the gas tax has been effectively shrinking due to inflation, construction cost increases, etc. for DECADES now, and still nothing has been done.
Many voters would fail to see any issue with this. Seeing the way people react to changes in gas prices, I think that most politicians have decided that boosting the gas tax is a non-starter for them.
That doesn't make it right.  Most people don't seem to realize that inflation is a thing that happens regardless of whether their wages are going up.  Then they blame the government if prices go up regardless of what really caused the price increase.  As I said, the politicians should be EDUCATING people on why this is not so (honestly, I'd support a test that people would be required to pass to vote to nullify this effect).  These are the same people who will invariably complain when many roads are congested and others are outright closed.  Of course, by then it will be too late, which is why education needs to start now.  I can't think of any alternative to the gas tax that isn't somehow worse.

Quote
QuoteNow, most of the public is so financially illiterate it's hard to believe they're still even alive

QuoteYour argument also hinges on whether representatives represent the people in practice in addition to theory.  That is dangerous assumption to make

QuotePlus, do you really trust the public to make transportation decisions?  I don't

QuoteAnd the politicians can't be trusted either, as they'll just let everything rot while their pet project gets done

QuoteThe civil service system isn't perfect, but I'd argue politicians are worse

Contempt for constituents and the people they vote for is not typically a winning strategy.

It's hard to have any faith in politicians when one reads as many news stories from alternative media as I do.  It doesn't help that I'm essentially a fish out of water on this planet.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 29, 2015, 02:55:20 PM
I'm not saying you're wrong. I just think that one needs to be realistic about the political lay of the land.

Like any other department or recipient of outlays, highway advocates need to fight for every dollar. Previous promises are just words on paper to politicians, whether it's fair or not.

And there's no need to make it personal. I live extremely close to an Interstate, probably closer than most of the people on this forum (lest I be called a NIMBY) and I use it on a near-daily basis. I also like to see it kept maintained properly. I don't particularly care where the money for maintenance comes from...gas tax, income tax, sales tax, soda tax, bear tax, Homer tax, etc etc.

And, I wouldn't vote for a politician who didn't support proper subsidization of the highway system, along with transit and pedestrian improvements as well. Like with highways, I couldn't care less where the funding for those projects come from either.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 29, 2015, 02:57:17 PM
Quote(honestly, I'd support a test that people would be required to pass to vote to nullify this effect)

A (financial) literacy test as a requirement for voting? Perhaps you should re-read your US history...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on December 30, 2015, 08:22:06 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 29, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
Quote from: Alps on December 28, 2015, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 28, 2015, 08:29:54 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 28, 2015, 08:12:24 AM

Quote from: mariethefoxy on December 28, 2015, 03:25:45 AM
I don't get the really low speed limits on I-395, is there any real reason besides they can get a lot more revenue with the camera tickets to put I-395 as 40MPH in the Southeast Freeway segment?

Bad road design with closely-spaced ramps and left-side blind merges on the segment between the 14th Street Bridge and the tunnel. The ramp coming from the 9th Street Tunnel is especially tricky.

Left unsaid, of course, is volume as well.
That's because speed limit is independent of volume. Set properly, the speed limit is the 85th percentile of free-flow speed - i.e. when traffic is light enough to go the speed that the roadway design warrants.

You are, of course, correct about 85th percentile.

But perhaps more than any other freeway in the D.C. area, the speeds on the Southeast/Southwest Freeway (I-695 and I-395 respectively) tend to vary widely (and wildly). 

Because it is so short (3.4 miles from the Virginia side of the 14th Street Bridge to the Anacostia River and 3.5 miles in the other direction), the difference in travel time is so small as to be almost irrelevant, regardless of if the speed limit is 35, 40, 45 or 50 (maximum posted limit in the District of Columbia is 50).

I absolutely consider the 40 MPH zone on an interstate highway with a speed camera to be a revenue trap.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 30, 2015, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 29, 2015, 02:30:08 PM
I suspect that the careers of many on here are predicated on the expectation of federal highway transportation funding, so it makes sense that they would get defensive if the funding is at risk (or perceived to be at risk), but again, I still don't really see how any of this is fundamentally different than any other political issue with interested parties.

FTFY.

Much (not all) of my personal income comes from federal, state and some local transportation funding. 

To expand on what Valerie wrote above, politicians and others made a commitment many decades ago that current politicians (even those that bow to anti-tax (as well as anti-highway and anti-transit) activists) are obligated to meet.  We have a very expensive system (in part because of the size of the nation) that mostly relies on those taxes for upkeep and in many cases reconstruction.  And that specifically includes transit systems like the Washington Metro, Bay Area BART, SEPTA and the huge system in metropolitan New York, some of which were built using dollars other than federal motor fuel taxes, but now are profoundly reliant on those to clear (some of) their maintenance backlogs (there's not much expansion going on, so I am not going to discuss that here).

In general, the only parts of the system that rely entirely on non-federal sources of dollars are low-functional-class roads and streets (depending on the jurisdiction, funding for those may be from private homeowners associations, condo associations, county or municipal property taxes, state motor fuel taxes and sometimes special tax districts of various kinds).  But the higher functional classification parts of the network (arterials and freeways) usually rely on state and federal motor fuel taxes, with the exceptions of toll roads and toll crossings, which tend to be self-funded in terms of maintenance.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 29, 2015, 02:30:08 PM
You could replace the words pertaining to roads with military/security or health/retirement and you'd basically be talking about defense budget or the non-discretionary non-defense budget (Medicare/Medicaid/SS).

Even the most ardent anti-tax activist is not going to touch Medicare and Social Security (Medicaid, because it mostly serves indigent people, is a different matter).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Nature Boy on January 01, 2016, 11:05:17 AM
I also take issue with the idea of highway funding as a "special interest." Unless you're in a select few metro areas, you need the interstate highway system to get to work, industry needs the interstate highway system to get their goods to market, and you definitely need the interstate highway system for any kind of long distance travel. If we continue to not adequately fund highways, it becomes an economic issue.

Millions of people rely on federally funded highways daily for even the most mundane things. In what world is it a special interest?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Pete from Boston on January 01, 2016, 11:42:24 AM

Quote from: The Nature Boy on January 01, 2016, 11:05:17 AM
I also take issue with the idea of highway funding as a "special interest." Unless you're in a select few metro areas, you need the interstate highway system to get to work, industry needs the interstate highway system to get their goods to market, and you definitely need the interstate highway system for any kind of long distance travel. If we continue to not adequately fund highways, it becomes an economic issue.

Millions of people rely on federally funded highways daily for even the most mundane things. In what world is it a special interest?

In the world that every interest competes for funding, and every competitor characterizes all the rest as niche players.  That's all it means.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Pete from Boston on January 01, 2016, 11:51:35 AM

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2015, 02:48:41 PM
It's hard to have any faith in politicians when one reads as many news stories from alternative media as I do.  It doesn't help that I'm essentially a fish out of water on this planet.

Alternative media?  I would say if one really needs to go beyond mainstream media to not have faith in politicians, one must be willfully looking the other way.  Of course, this dabbles in crossing into prohibited territory for this forum, but the most idealistic politician necessarily has to compromise his/her values eventually to appease those that are needed to stay in office.  All one needs is a little understanding of human nature to lose faith in politicians.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on January 01, 2016, 01:16:52 PM
QuoteI also take issue with the idea of highway funding as a "special interest." Unless you're in a select few metro areas, you need the interstate highway system to get to work, industry needs the interstate highway system to get their goods to market, and you definitely need the interstate highway system for any kind of long distance travel. If we continue to not adequately fund highways, it becomes an economic issue.

Millions of people rely on federally funded highways daily for even the most mundane things. In what world is it a special interest?

Besides what Pete said.....just the way you worded this, without any consideration of trains or planes or riverboats for "long distance travel", gives the impression of Interstate funding as a special interest.  And that may be what Pete was getting at with his niche comment.
Title: District of Columbia
Post by: Pete from Boston on January 01, 2016, 04:31:12 PM
I just meant that "special interests" is usually political PR shorthand for "[money-diverting] interests other than those I champion."  It's a marginalizing technique.

It's best to consider it in this context rather than take the face value too seriously.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on January 01, 2016, 08:18:34 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 01, 2016, 11:51:35 AM

Quote from: vdeane on December 29, 2015, 02:48:41 PM
It's hard to have any faith in politicians when one reads as many news stories from alternative media as I do.  It doesn't help that I'm essentially a fish out of water on this planet.

Alternative media?  I would say if one really needs to go beyond mainstream media to not have faith in politicians, one must be willfully looking the other way.  Of course, this dabbles in crossing into prohibited territory for this forum, but the most idealistic politician necessarily has to compromise his/her values eventually to appease those that are needed to stay in office.  All one needs is a little understanding of human nature to lose faith in politicians.

Let's just say that alternative media can make it easy to cross from "the system has problems but can be fixed if we vote, call our congressman, sign petitions, etc." to being a cynical conspiracy theorist.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Nature Boy on January 01, 2016, 11:00:35 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 01, 2016, 01:16:52 PM
QuoteI also take issue with the idea of highway funding as a "special interest." Unless you're in a select few metro areas, you need the interstate highway system to get to work, industry needs the interstate highway system to get their goods to market, and you definitely need the interstate highway system for any kind of long distance travel. If we continue to not adequately fund highways, it becomes an economic issue.

Millions of people rely on federally funded highways daily for even the most mundane things. In what world is it a special interest?

Besides what Pete said.....just the way you worded this, without any consideration of trains or planes or riverboats for "long distance travel", gives the impression of Interstate funding as a special interest.  And that may be what Pete was getting at with his niche comment.

The problem is that all of those are often prohibitively expensive for a family. It's far cheaper to put a family of 4 in the mini-van and drive down the interstate than it is to buy tickets on anything for all four. The interstate highway system is still the dominant mode of transportation for anyone doing long distance travel.

The majority of goods in this country are also carried via the interstate, even our mail is often carried from place to place via the interstate (even if its flown, it still has to get from the airport). I cannot think of a single more important asset to our economy than the interstate highway system. It literally is how we move people and things.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alex on January 20, 2016, 08:59:26 PM
Picked up a 1942 Washington, DC map earlier this week. Just took a look at it this evening and noticed some old alignments of US routes that were new to me in addition to DC 4/5. I posted a few scans and a review at https://www.aaroads.com/blog/2016/01/20/washington-d-c-1942-map/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2016, 01:33:59 PM
Quote from: Alex on January 20, 2016, 08:59:26 PM
Picked up a 1942 Washington, DC map earlier this week. Just took a look at it this evening and noticed some old alignments of US routes that were new to me in addition to DC 4/5. I posted a few scans and a review at https://www.aaroads.com/blog/2016/01/20/washington-d-c-1942-map/

Have seen at least one image of a D.C. 4 sign in the downtown area near or on Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., but not D.C. 5.

But there were green signs on eastbound Pennsylvania Avenue, S.E. leading up to present-day Branch Avenue, S.E. showing signs that said "TO Route 5" not that long ago (but are all gone now).

I have seen other maps also showing U.S. 240 coming (barely) into Arlington County, Va. at the present-day interchange of the George Washington Memorial Parkway and I-395/U.S. 1.  There was also Alternate U.S. 240, which followed Connecticut Avenue, N.W. out to Maryland (U.S. 240 always followed Wisconsin Avenue north from Georgetown.

I recall seeing a U.S. 211 sign or two in Georgetown, or maybe on the Whitehurst Freeway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2016, 05:14:13 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 15, 2015, 09:55:34 AM
Slightly related, DDOT's Circulator bus now has a route effectively circling the Mall, with an origin/ending at Union Station. And at $1 (and free SmartTrip transfers) much cheaper than the old Tourmobile, which had for a long time had a right of first refusal against mass transit on the mall. The old Tourmobile buses can still be seen in the area, operating under the Martz brand.

The Tourmobile provided bad service at high prices to areas along the National Mall.

The Circulator is a huge improvement.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on January 22, 2016, 09:08:39 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2016, 05:14:13 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 15, 2015, 09:55:34 AM
Slightly related, DDOT's Circulator bus now has a route effectively circling the Mall, with an origin/ending at Union Station. And at $1 (and free SmartTrip transfers) much cheaper than the old Tourmobile, which had for a long time had a right of first refusal against mass transit on the mall. The old Tourmobile buses can still be seen in the area, operating under the Martz brand.

The Tourmobile provided bad service at high prices to areas along the National Mall.


^This.  So, so this.  I never understood why anyone rode the thing.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 22, 2016, 09:28:13 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2016, 09:08:39 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2016, 05:14:13 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 15, 2015, 09:55:34 AM
Slightly related, DDOT's Circulator bus now has a route effectively circling the Mall, with an origin/ending at Union Station. And at $1 (and free SmartTrip transfers) much cheaper than the old Tourmobile, which had for a long time had a right of first refusal against mass transit on the mall. The old Tourmobile buses can still be seen in the area, operating under the Martz brand.

The Tourmobile provided bad service at high prices to areas along the National Mall.


^This.  So, so this.  I never understood why anyone rode the thing.

Tourists did not know how expensive it was until they boarded.

Beyond that, there was an added "bonus" - it operated on hours that were established in a contract between NPS and Tourmobile - in the 1960's, so it shut-down every afternoon (even in the peak spring and summer tourist) between 4 P.M. and 6 P.M., after that, tourists were mostly out of luck.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on January 23, 2016, 08:39:23 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 22, 2016, 09:28:13 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2016, 09:08:39 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2016, 05:14:13 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 15, 2015, 09:55:34 AM
Slightly related, DDOT's Circulator bus now has a route effectively circling the Mall, with an origin/ending at Union Station. And at $1 (and free SmartTrip transfers) much cheaper than the old Tourmobile, which had for a long time had a right of first refusal against mass transit on the mall. The old Tourmobile buses can still be seen in the area, operating under the Martz brand.

The Tourmobile provided bad service at high prices to areas along the National Mall.


^This.  So, so this.  I never understood why anyone rode the thing.

Tourists did not know how expensive it was until they boarded.

Beyond that, there was an added "bonus" - it operated on hours that were established in a contract between NPS and Tourmobile - in the 1960's, so it shut-down every afternoon (even in the peak spring and summer tourist) between 4 P.M. and 6 P.M., after that, tourists were mostly out of luck.

Was the Tourmobile a comfortable ride?  I was never on it.

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 23, 2016, 08:48:33 AM
I rode it once because it was an easy way to meet the requirements for some Boy Scout merit badge and I remember it being OK. Much more recently I seem to recall old Tourmobiles being re-purposed as cherry blossom shuttles. I think I found it less comfortable than a charter bus and far more comfortable than a school bus.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 23, 2016, 10:50:13 AM
Definitely a symbol of the lazy cozy days of federal control of DC and vendors who took advantage of that fact. NPS concessions are still pathetic (lame over priced food with non-compete clauses)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 23, 2016, 04:52:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 23, 2016, 08:48:33 AM
I rode it once because it was an easy way to meet the requirements for some Boy Scout merit badge and I remember it being OK. Much more recently I seem to recall old Tourmobiles being re-purposed as cherry blossom shuttles. I think I found it less comfortable than a charter bus and far more comfortable than a school bus.

Also, those Tourmobile buses were all built in the 1960's, which means the engines have little in the way of emission controls and could legally operate on leaded fuel (if it was available).

Martz purchased them all and is stil providing some sort of Tourmobile service, though it is not called that.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 23, 2016, 04:55:09 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on January 23, 2016, 10:50:13 AM
Definitely a symbol of the lazy cozy days of federal control of DC and vendors who took advantage of that fact. NPS concessions are still pathetic (lame over priced food with non-compete clauses)

The deal would not be all that different now, IMO.

Though the agreement that D.C. reached with NPS to run the Circulator service on the National Mall was in and of itself revolutionary.

But most of the concession deals involving NPS on the National mall are indeed terrible in terms of service (not) provided to visitors, and high prices.  The concession deals that state toll road agencies have reached with service plaza operators are vastly better.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 23, 2016, 05:11:30 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 23, 2016, 04:55:09 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on January 23, 2016, 10:50:13 AM
Definitely a symbol of the lazy cozy days of federal control of DC and vendors who took advantage of that fact. NPS concessions are still pathetic (lame over priced food with non-compete clauses)

The deal would not be all that different now, IMO.

Though the agreement that D.C. reached with NPS to run the Circulator service on the National Mall was in and of itself revolutionary.

But most of the concession deals involving NPS on the National mall are indeed terrible in terms of service (not) provided to visitors, and high prices.  The concession deals that state toll road agencies have reached with service plaza operators are vastly better.

At least the state toll road agencies are accountable to some degree to the state-level governments. The NPS is in theory accountable to Congress but that arrangements generally doesn't yield good results to the District.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on January 25, 2016, 03:36:04 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 22, 2016, 09:28:13 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2016, 09:08:39 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2016, 05:14:13 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 15, 2015, 09:55:34 AM
Slightly related, DDOT's Circulator bus now has a route effectively circling the Mall, with an origin/ending at Union Station. And at $1 (and free SmartTrip transfers) much cheaper than the old Tourmobile, which had for a long time had a right of first refusal against mass transit on the mall. The old Tourmobile buses can still be seen in the area, operating under the Martz brand.

The Tourmobile provided bad service at high prices to areas along the National Mall.


^This.  So, so this.  I never understood why anyone rode the thing.

Tourists did not know how expensive it was until they boarded.

Beyond that, there was an added "bonus" - it operated on hours that were established in a contract between NPS and Tourmobile - in the 1960's, so it shut-down every afternoon (even in the peak spring and summer tourist) between 4 P.M. and 6 P.M., after that, tourists were mostly out of luck.

Also, tourists are always advised not to drive into the city for sightseeing, and the Tourmobile and the Metro were the only ways to get from the National Mall and the Smithsonian to Arlington Cemetery.  As a former local, I would've preferred tourists on the Tourmobile to tourists on the Metro.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 27, 2016, 08:12:38 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 25, 2016, 03:36:04 PM
Also, tourists are always advised not to drive into the city for sightseeing, and the Tourmobile and the Metro were the only ways to get from the National Mall and the Smithsonian to Arlington Cemetery.  As a former local, I would've preferred tourists on the Tourmobile to tourists on the Metro.

But the Tourmobile could never carry anywhere close to the number of patrons that Metrorail could, and besides, they were mostly intended to serve rather different travel markets (it is possible to reach some of the D.C. Monumental Core attractions (and Arlington Cemetery)  easily by Metrorail, but many of them are a long walk from the nearest station).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 27, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
WTOP Radio: D.C. has issued more than $1.3M worth of snow emergency tickets (http://wtop.com/dc/2016/01/d-c-issued-more-than-1-2m-worth-of-snow-emergency-tickets/)

QuoteD.C. issued more than $1.3 million worth of tickets to more than 5,200 drivers who the D.C. Department of Public Works says parked in the District's snow emergency routes.

QuoteTo accommodate for the snowstorm that dumped feet of snow in the region, D.C. issued a snow emergency that took effect at 9:30 a.m. Friday. In a snow emergency, cars parked along snow emergency routes will be ticketed and towed.

QuoteAs of 1:15 p.m. Wednesday, 5,284 vehicles were issued tickets for parking in the snow emergency routes, says DPW spokeswoman Linda Grant. Also, 673 vehicles were towed during the same time period, Grant says.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Nature Boy on January 27, 2016, 10:41:27 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 27, 2016, 08:12:38 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 25, 2016, 03:36:04 PM
Also, tourists are always advised not to drive into the city for sightseeing, and the Tourmobile and the Metro were the only ways to get from the National Mall and the Smithsonian to Arlington Cemetery.  As a former local, I would've preferred tourists on the Tourmobile to tourists on the Metro.

But the Tourmobile could never carry anywhere close to the number of patrons that Metrorail could, and besides, they were mostly intended to serve rather different travel markets (it is possible to reach some of the D.C. Monumental Core attractions (and Arlington Cemetery)  easily by Metrorail, but many of them are a long walk from the nearest station).

Best example of this is the National Mall, which is a decent hike from the nearest Metro stop. Another example MIGHT be Georgetown but do DC tourists really want to see Georgetown?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 27, 2016, 11:42:39 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on January 27, 2016, 10:41:27 PM
Best example of this is the National Mall, which is a decent hike from the nearest Metro stop. Another example MIGHT be Georgetown but do DC tourists really want to see Georgetown?

Depends on where a tourist wants to go on the National Mall.  Air and Space is not too far from Federal Center Southwest, and the Smithsonian Castle is not too much of a haul from the Smithsonian stop.

The Washington Monument, the Holocaust Museum, Bureau of Engraving are not a terrible hike from Smithsonian, but the Lincoln, Jefferson and FDR Memorials are a pretty healthy walk from any Metrorail stop.

Even the U.S. Capitol is not all that close to a rail station.

Regarding Georgetown, because there is no Metrorail station close, the stores are overpriced and parking availability is generally miserable, I discourage people from going there, but if they really want to, and the weather is decent, I encourage them to hike across the Key Bridge from Rosslyn, or take the 38B Metrobus, or the Circulator bus.

I know people that want to see the stairs featured in the Exorcist movie at 36th and Prospect, N.W..
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 27, 2016, 11:43:17 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on January 27, 2016, 10:41:27 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 27, 2016, 08:12:38 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 25, 2016, 03:36:04 PM
Also, tourists are always advised not to drive into the city for sightseeing, and the Tourmobile and the Metro were the only ways to get from the National Mall and the Smithsonian to Arlington Cemetery.  As a former local, I would've preferred tourists on the Tourmobile to tourists on the Metro.

But the Tourmobile could never carry anywhere close to the number of patrons that Metrorail could, and besides, they were mostly intended to serve rather different travel markets (it is possible to reach some of the D.C. Monumental Core attractions (and Arlington Cemetery)  easily by Metrorail, but many of them are a long walk from the nearest station).

Best example of this is the National Mall, which is a decent hike from the nearest Metro stop. Another example MIGHT be Georgetown but do DC tourists really want to see Georgetown?

The damn cupcake store has been bringing people now in for a while.

My understanding is that in the 1960s, many members of the Kennedy Administration were seen hanging around there, so it grew a reputation for being a hip neighborhood. Now it often pops up in the political lexicon as a metonym for DC insiders ("blah blah Georgetown cocktail parties"). The shopping there is alrite...biggest H&M in the DC area. Plus, of course, the university which bears the neighborhood.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 27, 2016, 11:44:25 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 27, 2016, 11:42:39 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on January 27, 2016, 10:41:27 PM
Best example of this is the National Mall, which is a decent hike from the nearest Metro stop. Another example MIGHT be Georgetown but do DC tourists really want to see Georgetown?

Depends on where a tourist wants to go on the National Mall.  Air and Space is not too far from Federal Center Southwest, and the Smithsonian Castle is not too much of a haul from the Smithsonian stop.

The Washington Monument, the Holocaust Museum, Bureau of Engraving are not a terrible hike from Smithsonian, but the Lincoln, Jefferson and FDR Memorials are a pretty healthy walk from any Metrorail stop.

Even the U.S. Capitol is not all that close to a rail station.

Regarding Georgetown, because there is no Metrorail station close, the stores are overpriced and parking availability is generally miserable, I discourage people from going there, but if they really want to, and the weather is decent, I encourage them to hike across the Key Bridge from Rosslyn, or take the 38B Metrobus, or the Circulator bus.

I know people that want to see the stairs featured in the Exorcist movie at 36th and Prospect, N.W..

Union Station and Capitol South...

It's easy to park in the neigborhood north of M Street and east of the university. Most people are just too lazy to walk their fat asses up the hill.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 28, 2016, 07:33:09 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on January 27, 2016, 11:44:25 PM
Union Station and Capitol South...

Familiar with both.  Still a pretty good walk to the Visitor Center.  Especially from Union Station.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on January 27, 2016, 11:44:25 PM
It's easy to park in the neigborhood north of M Street and east of the university. Most people are just too lazy to walk their fat asses up the hill.

A lot of that area (at least the "free" spaces) are residential parking only.  But, yes, it is better there than on M Street itself, or along Water Street/K Street.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Nature Boy on January 28, 2016, 12:26:45 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on January 27, 2016, 11:43:17 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on January 27, 2016, 10:41:27 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 27, 2016, 08:12:38 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 25, 2016, 03:36:04 PM
Also, tourists are always advised not to drive into the city for sightseeing, and the Tourmobile and the Metro were the only ways to get from the National Mall and the Smithsonian to Arlington Cemetery.  As a former local, I would've preferred tourists on the Tourmobile to tourists on the Metro.

But the Tourmobile could never carry anywhere close to the number of patrons that Metrorail could, and besides, they were mostly intended to serve rather different travel markets (it is possible to reach some of the D.C. Monumental Core attractions (and Arlington Cemetery)  easily by Metrorail, but many of them are a long walk from the nearest station).

Best example of this is the National Mall, which is a decent hike from the nearest Metro stop. Another example MIGHT be Georgetown but do DC tourists really want to see Georgetown?

The damn cupcake store has been bringing people now in for a while.

My understanding is that in the 1960s, many members of the Kennedy Administration were seen hanging around there, so it grew a reputation for being a hip neighborhood. Now it often pops up in the political lexicon as a metonym for DC insiders ("blah blah Georgetown cocktail parties"). The shopping there is alrite...biggest H&M in the DC area. Plus, of course, the university which bears the neighborhood.

When I lived in DC, I never found Georgetown to be all that special and certainly not worth that three-quarter mile walk from Rosslyn or Foggy Bottom. I also find that most people who have never lived in the DC area or visited there extensively have this really warped view of what DC is actually like. You say "DC" to some people in this country and they think it's the modern day incarnation of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on January 28, 2016, 01:29:32 PM
Quote from: The Nature BoyBest example of this is the National Mall, which is a decent hike from the nearest Metro stop.

To elaborate on what CP said, the Smithsonian Metro entrance is literally ON the mall (at 12th St).  The Federal Triangle, Archives, and L'Enfant stations all have entrances within 2 blocks of the mall.

Though different agencies have differing definitions of the Mall, NPS officially defines the mall as extending from 1st St to 14th.  By that definition, there is no part of the mall that is more than 5 walking blocks (~2400ft) from a Metro station.

Now locations west of the Mall, specifically the Washington Monument, WW2 Memorial, Vietnam Memorial, and the Lincoln Memorial, are all a bit further away, but even the Lincoln Memorial is within 3/4 mile of Foggy Bottom Metro.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 28, 2016, 07:33:09 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on January 27, 2016, 11:44:25 PM
Union Station and Capitol South...

Familiar with both.  Still a pretty good walk to the Visitor Center.  Especially from Union Station.

Capitol South entrance is basically at 1st and C SE.  It's a 2 block walk to the Visitor Center.  About 1600ft if you include the offset crosswalk at Independence.  That's not much of a walk.  I know because I've done it with my asthmatic wife.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 28, 2016, 01:43:01 PM
Generally I find that out-of-towners complain more about distances than locals. I figure most people aren't used to walking all that much.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on January 28, 2016, 02:12:37 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on January 27, 2016, 11:43:17 PM
My understanding is that in the 1960s, many members of the Kennedy Administration were seen hanging around there, so it grew a reputation for being a hip neighborhood

Yes, this is true.  Georgetown was not a desirable neighborhood until then.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 28, 2016, 02:25:59 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 23, 2016, 08:39:23 AM
Was the Tourmobile a comfortable ride?  I was never on it.

No.  Hard-riding and cramped.  Added bonus - cold and drafty in winter, hot in summer.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 28, 2016, 02:30:43 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 28, 2016, 02:12:37 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on January 27, 2016, 11:43:17 PM
My understanding is that in the 1960s, many members of the Kennedy Administration were seen hanging around there, so it grew a reputation for being a hip neighborhood

Yes, this is true.  Georgetown was not a desirable neighborhood until then.

Georgetown was an industrial and port area (thanks in large part to being the downstream terminus of the C&O Canal) as well as a seaport at the head of navigation on the Potomac River.

THe C&O Canal ceased commercial operation for the last time in the 1920's after a Potomac River flood damaged it beyond economical repair.  To some extent, industry remained for several decades after the canal ceased to carry goods.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on January 28, 2016, 06:03:34 PM
Georgetown did thrive as a port when the C&O Canal was in operation (I'm not saying "after it was finished", because it never came near Ohio), but its original existence as a port was because it's at the point where the Piedmont started and the Potomac isn't navigable upstream of that by larger vessels. When GW decided where to put DC in the late 1700's, he included the existing bustling ports of Alexandria and Georgetown. (Fun fact: construction of the C&O Canal from DC and the B&O RR from Baltimore started on the same day: July 4, 1828.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on January 28, 2016, 06:35:03 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 27, 2016, 11:42:39 PM
the Lincoln, Jefferson and FDR Memorials are a pretty healthy walk from any Metrorail stop.
Yeah, the memorials are REALLY far from the metro.  When my family was there on vacation, we wound up DRIVING in on the way back from Mount Vernon to see the Jefferson and FDR memorials.  For the Lincoln, we walked, but Mom and I wound up just sitting by the reflecting pool rather than walk around the memorial (thankfully, we had already seen it during my 7th grade school trip).  On the way back, we had to stop frequently because Mom was suffering heat exhaustion.  Thankfully the metro is air conditioned and the Rosslyn stop was near a shop that had really cold drinks.  Doesn't help that it was over a humid 90 degrees out.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 28, 2016, 07:46:24 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on January 28, 2016, 06:03:34 PM
Georgetown did thrive as a port when the C&O Canal was in operation (I'm not saying "after it was finished", because it never came near Ohio), but its original existence as a port was because it's at the point where the Piedmont started and the Potomac isn't navigable upstream of that by larger vessels. When GW decided where to put DC in the late 1700's, he included the existing bustling ports of Alexandria and Georgetown. (Fun fact: construction of the C&O Canal from DC and the B&O RR from Baltimore started on the same day: July 4, 1828.)

I believe the Ohio part of the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal's name was about the Ohio River watershed in Western Maryland or probably southwestern Pennsylvania, from there the intent being that canal traffic could reach Ohio by way of the river via Pittsburgh. I do not think the backers of the canal ever envisioned that it would reach Ohio.

More about the C&O Canal - it was intended to follow the Potomac River beyond Cumberland as far as present-day Bloomington, Maryland, then ascend toward the Eastern Continental Divide (ECD) via the gorge of the Savage River tributary of the Potomac River, cross the ECD and descend on the Mississippi River/Ohio River side by way of Deep Creek (tributary of the Youghiogheny River) or the Casselman River (formerly the Little Youghiogheny River).  The canal would have had to gain enormously more elevation (about 2,000 feet) between Cumberland and the crest of the ECD than it did between Washington, D.C. and Cumberland (about 600 feet).

And yes, the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad did reach the Ohio River at Wheeling, Virginia (West Virginia now) in the 1850's and eventually on to the west into the State of Ohio, leaving the C&O Canal impossibly far behind.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on January 29, 2016, 10:15:43 AM
Tourists to DC want to go to Georgetown for shopping, Embassy Row and feeling like they're amongst DC's elite.  Pretty much all there is to it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 29, 2016, 11:01:48 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on January 27, 2016, 11:43:17 PM
The damn cupcake store has been bringing people now in for a while.

Indeed.  I was over in Georgetown for some field work early in the morning (starting before 0500), and just the many trucks that bring their supplies to the cupcake place (M Street, N.W. at 33rd Street) was impressive.  And a line forms before it opens!

Nasty comment (not about the cupcake place).  The restaurant across 33rd Street, N.W. facing M Street (has changed ownership and format since I was there) had a lot of very messy and nasty trash out, and the rats that it attracted were shameless and huge enough to probably scare away any feral cats that might have been looking for a rodent meal - I called the D.C. rodent control inspector, who dispatched a couple of people to look it over and cite the restaurant.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on January 27, 2016, 11:43:17 PM
My understanding is that in the 1960s, many members of the Kennedy Administration were seen hanging around there, so it grew a reputation for being a hip neighborhood. Now it often pops up in the political lexicon as a metonym for DC insiders ("blah blah Georgetown cocktail parties"). The shopping there is alrite...biggest H&M in the DC area. Plus, of course, the university which bears the neighborhood.

It dates to the 1940's.  Then-Representative John F. Kennedy took up residence on 31st Street, N.W., and lived at several places there while a member of the U.S. House and later U.S. Senate, including on Dent Place, N.W. 

I read someplace that Jack Kennedy (and later, and perhaps especially, Jackie Kennedy with her obvious grace and beauty) "made" Georgetown.  You can read more about his influence on Georgetown on the WETA-TV Web site here (http://blogs.weta.org/boundarystones/2013/11/11/young-jfk-georgetown).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on January 29, 2016, 03:41:31 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 28, 2016, 02:25:59 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 23, 2016, 08:39:23 AM
Was the Tourmobile a comfortable ride?  I was never on it.

No.  Hard-riding and cramped.  Added bonus - cold and drafty in winter, hot in summer.

Picture the trams used on movie studio tours or at theme parks and zoos to transport people from their cars to the front gate.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 29, 2016, 04:06:19 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on January 29, 2016, 03:41:31 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 28, 2016, 02:25:59 PM
Quote from: ixnay on January 23, 2016, 08:39:23 AM
Was the Tourmobile a comfortable ride?  I was never on it.

No.  Hard-riding and cramped.  Added bonus - cold and drafty in winter, hot in summer.

Picture the trams used on movie studio tours or at theme parks and zoos to transport people from their cars to the front gate.

I have ridden such vehicles at the Warner Brothers studio in Burbank, California.  The Southern California weather (overall) is better than the Washington, D.C. weather, and what is pleasant in Burbank is unpleasant in Washington
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 29, 2016, 04:55:06 PM
So what do you like about living in Maryland, cpzillacus? Apparently it has nothing to do with the weather.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 29, 2016, 06:21:28 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 29, 2016, 04:55:06 PM
So what do you like about living in Maryland, cpzillacus? Apparently it has nothing to do with the weather.

Weather is acceptable most of the year.  Huge snowstorms are generally unusual - we have them one or two every several years.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 01, 2016, 08:54:01 PM
Washington Post: D.C.'s old streetcar system is gone, but miles of rails are still down there (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dcs-old-streetcar-system-is-gone-but-miles-of-rails-are-still-down-there/2016/02/01/46c7f32e-c5d2-11e5-9693-933a4d31bcc8_story.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: noelbotevera on February 01, 2016, 09:17:52 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 01, 2016, 08:54:01 PM
Washington Post: D.C.'s old streetcar system is gone, but miles of rails are still down there (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dcs-old-streetcar-system-is-gone-but-miles-of-rails-are-still-down-there/2016/02/01/46c7f32e-c5d2-11e5-9693-933a4d31bcc8_story.html)
Probably because some trams still run down the old rails.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 01, 2016, 09:31:51 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 22, 2016, 09:28:13 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 22, 2016, 09:08:39 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2016, 05:14:13 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 15, 2015, 09:55:34 AM
Slightly related, DDOT's Circulator bus now has a route effectively circling the Mall, with an origin/ending at Union Station. And at $1 (and free SmartTrip transfers) much cheaper than the old Tourmobile, which had for a long time had a right of first refusal against mass transit on the mall. The old Tourmobile buses can still be seen in the area, operating under the Martz brand.

The Tourmobile provided bad service at high prices to areas along the National Mall.


^This.  So, so this.  I never understood why anyone rode the thing.

Tourists did not know how expensive it was until they boarded.

Beyond that, there was an added "bonus" - it operated on hours that were established in a contract between NPS and Tourmobile - in the 1960's, so it shut-down every afternoon (even in the peak spring and summer tourist) between 4 P.M. and 6 P.M., after that, tourists were mostly out of luck.

I thought I rode one after dark in 1985.  This was in April, so it would have been after 7.  Were there other operators?  It's possible that we rode the bus there and left another way, but my memory for these details from thirty years ago is not what it was.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 01, 2016, 09:49:50 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 01, 2016, 09:17:52 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 01, 2016, 08:54:01 PM
Washington Post: D.C.'s old streetcar system is gone, but miles of rails are still down there (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dcs-old-streetcar-system-is-gone-but-miles-of-rails-are-still-down-there/2016/02/01/46c7f32e-c5d2-11e5-9693-933a4d31bcc8_story.html)
Probably because some trams still run down the old rails.

Nope.  All D.C. electric street railway operation was terminated by 1962 on order of the U.S. Congress that was approved in 1956.

Only place you will see old, vintage streetcars in the Washington, D.C. area (aside from new (and very different) units on the new H Street, N.E./Benning Road Line, not yet in revenue operation) is at the National Capital Trolley Museum, located on Bonifant Road near the interchange of Md. 200 (ICC) and Md. 182 (Layhill Road) in Montgomery County (Md.).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 01, 2016, 09:52:32 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 29, 2016, 04:55:06 PM
So what do you like about living in Maryland, cpzillacus? Apparently it has nothing to do with the weather.

Near-native (lived in D.C. as a baby, but have no memories of same), and it has jobs.

No interest in living in D.C. ever again, and there is a lot I do not like about the politics of Virginia (though the statewide elected officials these days are pretty good).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 01, 2016, 09:54:42 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 01, 2016, 09:31:51 PM
I thought I rode one after dark in 1985.  This was in April, so it would have been after 7.  Were there other operators?  It's possible that we rode the bus there and left another way, but my memory for these details from thirty years ago is not what it was.

Tourmobile had some very limited "after dark" service so people could see the National Mall buildings and monuments when they are lighted-up.   

Tourmobile had a near-monopoly on sightseeing in the National Mall area (so I doubt it was a competing company).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 01, 2016, 11:14:18 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 01, 2016, 09:54:42 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 01, 2016, 09:31:51 PM
I thought I rode one after dark in 1985.  This was in April, so it would have been after 7.  Were there other operators?  It's possible that we rode the bus there and left another way, but my memory for these details from thirty years ago is not what it was.

Tourmobile had some very limited "after dark" service so people could see the National Mall buildings and monuments when they are lighted-up.   

Tourmobile had a near-monopoly on sightseeing in the National Mall area (so I doubt it was a competing company).

Then it was them.  The ride included at least a view of the Jefferson Memorial and let off at the Lincoln Memorial.  I do recall a pretty established pickup spot/kiosk/etc.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: noelbotevera on February 02, 2016, 03:29:36 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 01, 2016, 09:49:50 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 01, 2016, 09:17:52 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 01, 2016, 08:54:01 PM
Washington Post: D.C.'s old streetcar system is gone, but miles of rails are still down there (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dcs-old-streetcar-system-is-gone-but-miles-of-rails-are-still-down-there/2016/02/01/46c7f32e-c5d2-11e5-9693-933a4d31bcc8_story.html)
Probably because some trams still run down the old rails.

Nope.  All D.C. electric street railway operation was terminated by 1962 on order of the U.S. Congress that was approved in 1956.

Only place you will see old, vintage streetcars in the Washington, D.C. area (aside from new (and very different) units on the new H Street, N.E./Benning Road Line, not yet in revenue operation) is at the National Capital Trolley Museum, located on Bonifant Road near the interchange of Md. 200 (ICC) and Md. 182 (Layhill Road) in Montgomery County (Md.).
I mean these (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9001998,-76.9843612,3a,75y,125.37h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0lBly4gI5eR1WsHFIWdKaw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). My last visit to D.C. I saw these in use by some trams run by probably WMATA.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 02, 2016, 04:06:20 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 02, 2016, 03:29:36 PM
I mean these (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9001998,-76.9843612,3a,75y,125.37h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0lBly4gI5eR1WsHFIWdKaw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). My last visit to D.C. I saw these in use by some trams run by probably WMATA.

Those will be run by the D.C. Department of Transportation (DDOT) if they ever go in revenue service (as of today, they have yet to serve even one paying customer).

WMATA has nothing to do with the operation of the D.C. Streetcar.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 02, 2016, 04:09:01 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 02, 2016, 04:06:20 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 02, 2016, 03:29:36 PM
I mean these (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9001998,-76.9843612,3a,75y,125.37h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0lBly4gI5eR1WsHFIWdKaw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). My last visit to D.C. I saw these in use by some trams run by probably WMATA.

Those will be run by the D.C. Department of Transportation (DDOT) if they ever go in revenue service (as of today, they have yet to serve even one paying customer).

WMATA has nothing to do with the operation of the D.C. Streetcar.

Huh.  Why is that?  Does the DOT run other transit services? 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on February 02, 2016, 04:47:33 PM
The nascent DC Streetcar service is the brainchild of the DC Government. The entities that fund WMATA (Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority), which also includes Maryland, Virginia and Uncle Sam, fortunately have nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 02, 2016, 05:05:48 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 02, 2016, 04:09:01 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 02, 2016, 04:06:20 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on February 02, 2016, 03:29:36 PM
I mean these (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9001998,-76.9843612,3a,75y,125.37h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0lBly4gI5eR1WsHFIWdKaw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). My last visit to D.C. I saw these in use by some trams run by probably WMATA.

Those will be run by the D.C. Department of Transportation (DDOT) if they ever go in revenue service (as of today, they have yet to serve even one paying customer).

WMATA has nothing to do with the operation of the D.C. Streetcar.

Huh.  Why is that?  Does the DOT run other transit services? 

Why?  I am not sure what the reasons for DDOT reaching that decision are. 

Mine is simple - WMATA has a large heavy rail system that still needs a lot of expensive and drawn-out repair work, and putting them in charge of a streetcar line would be a pretty major distraction.

DDOT is also  mostly in charge of operating the Circulator bus lines, which are not WMATA services, though there is some institutional involvement by WMATA.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on February 02, 2016, 05:15:26 PM
And WMATA is also distracted enough running MetroBus.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on February 02, 2016, 05:21:51 PM
Does the Circulator, and will the streetcar, have a workforce not covered by the WMATA labor contract? That pricey union contract is a major reason why many suburban jurisdictions operate their own local bus services, to supplement the core WMATA rail and bus routes. Even if DDOT would not go with non-union workforces like some of the Virginia suburban systems, it might be tempted to save money through a less expensive union labor contract.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 02, 2016, 11:04:56 PM
Quote from: oscar on February 02, 2016, 05:21:51 PM
Does the Circulator, and will the streetcar, have a workforce not covered by the WMATA labor contract?

Yes.  Circulator drivers are unionized, but they do not belong to the Amalgamated Transit Union, Local 689, which represents most WMATA hourly employees.

Quote from: oscar on February 02, 2016, 05:21:51 PM
That pricey union contract is a major reason why many suburban jurisdictions operate their own local bus services, to supplement the core WMATA rail and bus routes.

Absolutely correct.  Montgomery County was the first of the WMATA compact members to start its own bus service, now known as RideOn back in the mid-1970's. 

All of the WMATA members have varied degrees of locally-operated  bus service.  Nearly all of it is run by private-sector contractors.

Quote from: oscar on February 02, 2016, 05:21:51 PM
Even if DDOT would not go with non-union workforces like some of the Virginia suburban systems, it might be tempted to save money through a less expensive union labor contract.

At least some of the private bus operators that run buses for Northern Virginia county or municipal governments have unionized workforces.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Nature Boy on February 02, 2016, 11:07:19 PM
I'm assuming that the H Street streetcar will eventually open in some capacity, right? This has to be the longest beta testing phase ever.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 03, 2016, 02:13:45 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on February 02, 2016, 11:07:19 PM
I'm assuming that the H Street streetcar will eventually open in some capacity, right? This has to be the longest beta testing phase ever.

The head of DDOT has said that it will open ... when it is ready. 

They are running "service" every day, but no paying patrons.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on February 03, 2016, 07:16:11 AM
H St streetcar has been a fustercluck since day one.  Good intentions.  Horrible execution.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 03, 2016, 10:15:52 AM
I asked because while there are metro areas with ancient fiefdoms (like New York or San Francisco) that fragment transit jurisdiction, I had the impression that WMATA had fairly uniform control over the District.  Guess not.  I hope at least planning is coordinated (perhaps at the MPO level?) so as to use resources best.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on February 03, 2016, 10:28:22 AM
QuoteI hope at least planning is coordinated (perhaps at the MPO level?) so as to use resources best.

MWCOG (the regional MPO which CP works for) makes the attempt, but it's not easy when you're dealing with the equivalent of three states and multiple local jurisdictions.

Furthermore, when it comes to transit funding, there are three different variations of such, depending on where you are.  DDOT is effectively a city-state.  For the Maryland jurisdictions, the state handles it, but Virginia largely leaves it to the local jurisdictions.  They'll distribute Federal and state transit funding as needed/prescribed (the main reason that the Northern Virginia Transportation Commission exists), but it's ultimately up to the local jurisdictions on the Virginia side.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 04, 2016, 06:11:48 PM
If you want a highly successful streetcar line and system, take a time machine and go back to the late 19th century. Streetcars and light rail are expensive and inefficient, and shouldn't have a place in 21st century cities. I'd prefer taking a bus any day.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 04, 2016, 08:08:42 PM
DC's H Street streetcar is always going to suffer from the H Street portion running in the right-hand lane of traffic instead of the left lane (whereas the eastern part on Benning Road is in the left lane along the median) because it leads to the problem of parallel-parked cars being immediately adjacent to the streetcar lane. During the lengthy "testing" phase they've had constant problems with parked cars not being parked properly and sticking out over the white line into the streetcar's path. I find it hard to imagine how they'll ever be able to manage the sort of INSTANT towing that'll be needed to solve this problem if the line ever actually begins passenger service. You have to tow instantly, not just issue tickets, because the streetcar cannot move around obstacles like a bus can.

To be sure, part of the problem is that many drivers can't parallel park. Delivery truck drivers will learn very quickly, if they haven't already, that they can't double-park along there. People who aren't good parallel parkers but who don't realize they aren't good at it will be a much bigger problem. The obvious answer is that if you aren't good enough at it to park your car completely on the curb side of the white line, as indicated on the signs, then you should not park on H Street, but getting car drivers to understand that will be a whole lot harder than getting delivery drivers to understand their part. From what I've seen driving on there, it's a very small tolerance for error in terms of how you have to park, and unfortunately people are so accustomed to the idea that it's OK to stick out over a line (think stop bars at red lights, which almost everyone ignores around here) that I'm certain it's going to be difficult to get people to realize that THIS white line matters a great deal.





Edited to add an unrelated DC note: An interesting sight you can see right now that may vanish at any time is visible on eastbound I-695 and northbound I-395. As I-395 descends to the right to enter what becomes the Third Street Tunnel, there is an older BGS saying "C St S.W./US Capitol/The House" that was not replaced in the recent round of sign replacements in that area. The sign is an older button-copy sign and, at least as of this past Tuesday night at around 10:40 PM, you could see the button-copy stuff (sorry, I don't know what the term for that is) peeling off from the white letters. Can't say that's something I've gotten to see very often, and it was rather interesting to see it. I don't doubt it helped that it was night and the sign itself has its own illumination. Unfortunately, there is no way I'll ever manage a picture of it since I never drive that way during rush hour when the traffic is slow enough to allow me to get a picture. I only drive that way on my way home from Verizon Center, and since I'm back working downtown we're on the subway more often than we drive.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alex on February 04, 2016, 10:37:27 PM
This one?

(https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/dc095/i-695_eb_exit_001a_01.jpg)

It is posted on our I-695 DC guide.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 04, 2016, 11:18:11 PM
That's the one. The peeling button copy was rather more obvious than in that photo, though the fact it was night surely made a difference. I can't say I usually pay very close attention to the signs on that road anyway. 99% of the times I use it, I head east to the 11th Street Bridge and then down I-295 to the Beltway and none of the signs matter to me unless there's something new. (Watching the I-695 signs appear was interesting.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on February 05, 2016, 09:13:29 AM
QuoteStreetcars and light rail are expensive and inefficient, and shouldn't have a place in 21st century cities.

And you're basing this comment on...?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 05, 2016, 09:27:52 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 05, 2016, 09:13:29 AM
QuoteStreetcars and light rail are expensive and inefficient, and shouldn't have a place in 21st century cities.

And you're basing this comment on...?

Trams I've ridden:

Strasbourg: Very good, very popular. Most of the routes through the core of the city are pedestrianized, so there's no vehicle competition for ROW space. Pedestrians are good at not being in the way.

Munich: High degree of separated ROW. Signal controlled. Also very good.

Heidelberg: Don't remember, car was crammed to the gills.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 05, 2016, 01:05:22 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 05, 2016, 09:13:29 AM
QuoteStreetcars and light rail are expensive and inefficient, and shouldn't have a place in 21st century cities.

And you're basing this comment on...?

I did not make the comment above, but I am decidedly cool toward new electric street railway projects for several reasons (even though I love to ride them in any city that has them):

(1) Extremely expensive to construct;
(2) Limited capacity (the streetcar service along the H Street/Benning Road corridor was converted to bus in 1947, not because of any order from the idiots on Capitol Hill, and not because of a supposed General Motors conspiracy, but because the streetcars could not serve the demand, and  buses did and could - the X2, X3 and X9 are some of the busiest bus routes run by WMATA even today);
(3) Inflexible, in that they only run where there is expensive track and expensive overhead wire, and if a car breaks down, the entire line comes to a stop;
(4) No faster than a bus (and in some cases slower), unless the streetcars are on dedicated right-of-way with signals set to give at least some priority to the streetcars.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on February 06, 2016, 01:19:29 PM
I concur with cpzilliacus.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on February 08, 2016, 09:06:38 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 06, 2016, 01:19:29 PM
I concur with cpzilliacus.

Excellent (http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m54agatCl31qdjrt9o4_250.gif).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2016, 03:49:47 PM
WTOP Radio: Poll finds opposition to Vision Zero's new fines, offenses (http://wtop.com/dc/2016/02/poll-finds-opposition-to-vision-zeros-new-fines-offenses/)

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 08, 2016, 04:19:30 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2016, 03:49:47 PM
WTOP Radio: Poll finds opposition to Vision Zero's new fines, offenses (http://wtop.com/dc/2016/02/poll-finds-opposition-to-vision-zeros-new-fines-offenses/)

Quote...a new poll from AAA shows...

AAA poll validates AAA talking points. Who woulda thunk it?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on February 08, 2016, 04:24:34 PM
QuoteWTOP Radio: Poll finds opposition to Vision Zero's effectiveness

FTFY.

Regarding the earlier convo, you and I have gone back and forth on this numerous times.  I doubt we'll ever change each other's opinions on it, but I do have to address your comments.

#1:  it's in a city, where infrastructure is expensive to begin with.  We just spent $400 million (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ipd/project_profiles/dc_eleventh_street_bridge_project.aspx) on the 11th St Bridge.  Heck, just replacing the overpass on 16th St NW at Military Rd is running 8 digits (http://ddot.dc.gov/node/463662).

#2 may have been the case back in the '50s, but not so anymore.  It's well documented that modern streetcars and especially LRT trains have a higher passenger capacity than buses.  To get that same level of capacity from buses requires running enough buses that the operating costs actually exceed that of the streetcar.

You see #3 as a flaw.  And in relation to #4, perhaps it is.  But developers and residents tend to see it differently:  as permanence.  Hard to have "rail creep" in planning/executing a rail transit project the way it often happens with "BRT creep".

#4 may or may not be true, depending on how many stops the transit line has.  As a general rule, streetcars tend to be faster than buses (parked cars in the way notwithstanding) because they generally make fewer stops than the bus does.  The only way the bus could counter this would be to cut the number of stops it makes, or having more limited-stop service (like the S9 or X9).  But local residents and even businesses tend to not like having "their stop" cut, even if it makes operational sense to do so.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 08, 2016, 06:24:37 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 08, 2016, 04:24:34 PM
QuoteWTOP Radio: Poll finds opposition to Vision Zero's effectiveness

FTFY.

Regarding the earlier convo, you and I have gone back and forth on this numerous times.  I doubt we'll ever change each other's opinions on it, but I do have to address your comments.

#1:  it's in a city, where infrastructure is expensive to begin with.  We just spent $400 million (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ipd/project_profiles/dc_eleventh_street_bridge_project.aspx) on the 11th St Bridge.  Heck, just replacing the overpass on 16th St NW at Military Rd is running 8 digits (http://ddot.dc.gov/node/463662).

#2 may have been the case back in the '50s, but not so anymore.  It's well documented that modern streetcars and especially LRT trains have a higher passenger capacity than buses.  To get that same level of capacity from buses requires running enough buses that the operating costs actually exceed that of the streetcar.

The PCC cars that dominated in Washington for the last several decades of streetcar operation were slightly shorter than those of most other cities because of constraints on parking them in the barns.  But the cars that DDOT has purchased for H Street/Benning Road have more capacity because they are longer articulated units, not because of any particular improvement in the technology.

Those rebuilt or improved structures for highway traffic have (and will have) traffic volumes (including transit bus patrons) to justify the costs of same.

Quote from: froggie on February 08, 2016, 04:24:34 PM
You see #3 as a flaw.  And in relation to #4, perhaps it is.  But developers and residents tend to see it differently:  as permanence.  Hard to have "rail creep" in planning/executing a rail transit project the way it often happens with "BRT creep".

I see 3 as a flaw when a car on the line breaks down - or if the line is blocked for other reasons, including a crash involving one or more rubber-tire vehicles. 

I reject the inflexibility of rail as some sort of an asset. 

The apartment buildings along the 16th Street, N.W.; Connecticut Avenue, N.W.; Wisconsin Avenue, N.W.; and Massachusetts Avenue, N.W. corridors have thrived for many, many decades, with the only form of transit being the humble transit bus (16th Street never had streetcar service; the line along Connecticut Avenue was converted to bus in the 1930's (and supplanted to a large extent by Metrorail in the 1980's); streetcars on Wisconsin Avenue were converted to bus in the late 1950's; and Massachusetts Avenue had some streetcar service in the early days of electric street railways in D.C., but it was abandoned as far back as the 1920's or 1930's).

BRT is a rather different mode of transport from (most) electric street railway lines.

Quote from: froggie on February 08, 2016, 04:24:34 PM
#4 may or may not be true, depending on how many stops the transit line has.  As a general rule, streetcars tend to be faster than buses (parked cars in the way notwithstanding) because they generally make fewer stops than the bus does.  The only way the bus could counter this would be to cut the number of stops it makes, or having more limited-stop service (like the S9 or X9).  But local residents and even businesses tend to not like having "their stop" cut, even if it makes operational sense to do so.

Streetcars can usually accelerate away from a stop faster than a vehicle with an internal-combustion engine, but they generally have to follow the same posted speed limits as nearby rubber-tire traffic.

In D.C. most of the electric street railway system was also impacted by recurring (and sometimes severe) traffic congestion (notable exceptions being parts of the 10 and 12  (east of the Anacostia River) to Benning and Seat Pleasant respectively,  the 20 line to Glen Echo, west of Georgetown University; the 82 to from Mount Rainier to Branchville in College Park; and the 30 along Pennsylvania Avenue, S.E. from Second Street to Barney Circle and along much of Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.from the U.S. Capitol complex to the White House and beyond to the narrow streets of Georgetown).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 16, 2016, 11:20:18 PM
Washington Post: Meet the District's "˜most productive' traffic officer (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/meet-the-districts-most-productive-traffic-officer/2016/02/16/88b15f82-ca91-11e5-ae11-57b6aeab993f_story.html)

QuoteIf you drive a taxi in the District, chances are you've heard of Officer Thomas Krmenec, king of traffic enforcement in the city's 5th District in Northeast.

QuoteNothing escapes Krmenec when it comes to enforcing taxicab regulations – and for that matter, all rules of the road. He is so serious about keeping order on the streets that last year he handed out more than 3,000 tickets, earning him accolades as the "most productive traffic officer in the city."

QuoteWhen he's not inspecting taxicabs, Krmenec, an 11-year D.C. police veteran, is pulling over speeders, arresting drunk drivers and coming to the aid of residents looking for traffic-calming in their neighborhoods. He is a rarity in a city that relies heavily on automated traffic enforcement.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 19, 2016, 10:50:19 PM
WTOP Radio: Proposed transportation projects could ease traffic in the region (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2016/02/proposed-transportation-projects-could-ease-traffic-in-the-region/)

QuoteSignificant traffic changes are being considered by local transportation officials looking to ease gridlock in Maryland, D.C. and Virginia.

QuoteThose changes include a tolling plan for Interstate 66, converting I-395 HOV lanes to toll lanes, installing a new HOV lane on Route 28 and adding new bus-only lanes.

QuoteOn Wednesday, as part of the proposed changes to the region's long range plan, the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments' transportation planning board was briefed on nine major projects that Virginia and D.C. have proposed or want to change.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on February 21, 2016, 08:31:15 AM
Ugh.  Whenever someone talks about using tolling to ease congestion, it makes me want to reach for my revolver.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on February 21, 2016, 09:55:53 AM
Why's that?  Congestion pricing has been well demonstrated.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 21, 2016, 04:02:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 21, 2016, 08:31:15 AM
Ugh.  Whenever someone talks about using tolling to ease congestion, it makes me want to reach for my revolver.

Reach for this instead: Intercounty Connector (ICC)/MD 200 Saving Time (http://www.mdta.maryland.gov/ICC/Saving_Time.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on February 22, 2016, 08:10:30 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 21, 2016, 09:55:53 AM
Why's that?  Congestion pricing has been well demonstrated.

It's the real cost of congestion pricing and tolling that irks me.  The relief in congestion that is realized through such measures is due to restricting freedom:  Those that would have traveled on the road when it was not tolled now do not take the trip since they find the increased cost onerous.  So, we're restricting our society's mobility and freedom while claiming a victory in easing congestion ("Yay!  The more affluent can get around easier!").

I'm not totally against tolling, either.  However, my position has always been to either tax me or toll me, but not both (despite the fact we've already tried tolling a lot more than we do now -- see all the very old turnpikes in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic -- which was one of the impetuses for federal funding of roads starting with the National Road).  This hodgepodge system we have where some facilities are tolled and others aren't seems very chaotic and inefficient to me. 

For instance, look at NY, where you have all this redundant manpower split almost arbitrarily between NYSDOT, NYSTA, NYSBA, PANYNJ, MTA, etc., etc.  In reality, the Thruway's just another highway.  Sure, you need some people to handle the tolling aspects of it, but the size of NYSTA in terms of FTEs seems very disproportionate to the actual needs of the facility on its face.  So, tolls are actually supporting an inefficient system of overall management.

I'm rambling and this is the DC thread, so I'll stop here.  My main point is that I accept the cold data that congestion does improve when pricing is implemented, but the cost to the overall mobility and freedom of our society for that benefit concerns me.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on February 22, 2016, 08:17:06 AM
Every good has to be rationed by one way or another.

Generally governments ration by queue, that is, waiting for stuff. This is true with roads, lines at the DMV, etc. Everyone is equal and gets a fair shot at the same good.

Private enterprise rations by price typically...the price of a good or service is raised (or lowered) until it hits a market-cleared equilibrium. Those that are able and willing to buy the good/service do so.

Effectively, congestion pricing is, to steal a phrase from politicians "running the government like a business". Whether or not that's a good thing is up to the voters.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 03, 2016, 01:45:43 PM
Washington Post: Crumbling Memorial Bridge could become a "˜footbridge' in five years without $250 million in repairs (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crumbling-memorial-bridge-could-become-a-footbridge-in-five-years-without-250-million-in-repairs/2016/03/02/70db2926-e092-11e5-846c-10191d1fc4ec_story.html)

QuoteThe National Park Service said Wednesday that the historic but crumbling Memorial Bridge over the Potomac River may be closed to traffic in five years if it does not get a complete overhaul by then.

QuoteWithout repairs, "it's a footbridge"  by 2021, said the Park Service's director, Jonathan B. Jarvis.

QuoteThe Park Service has been warning for years that the bridge has been failing. Traffic weight restrictions have been instituted, while the road surface has been patched up and the support structure shored up.

QuoteBut the rate of deterioration has accelerated, and an inspection report last month by the Federal Highway Administration found conditions even more alarming, Jarvis said.

QuoteDuring a tour of the underside of the bridge Wednesday, Park Service officials pointed out decayed steel supports, corroded rivets, crumbling concrete and ancient, peeling paint.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on March 03, 2016, 03:08:31 PM
The bridge should be reconstructed. Is there anyway to include safety and design improvements without interfering with the fact that the bridge is listed on the National Register of Historic Places?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 03, 2016, 07:25:17 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on March 03, 2016, 03:08:31 PM
The bridge should be reconstructed. Is there anyway to include safety and design improvements without interfering with the fact that the bridge is listed on the National Register of Historic Places?

I certainly think so.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on March 03, 2016, 08:49:18 PM
There's precedent.  The Mendota Bridge in Minnesota is a concrete arch bridge that has long been on the National Register.  MnDOT completely rebuilt it above the arches about 20 years ago.  While doing the same thing here would be a traffic nightmare during the reconstruction, it's certainly an option that has the above-mentioned precedent.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 03, 2016, 09:51:21 PM
Quote from: froggie on March 03, 2016, 08:49:18 PM
There's precedent.  The Mendota Bridge in Minnesota is a concrete arch bridge that has long been on the National Register.  MnDOT completely rebuilt it above the arches about 20 years ago.  While doing the same thing here would be a traffic nightmare during the reconstruction, it's certainly an option that has the above-mentioned precedent.

It has been suggested that a total closure of the Arlington Memorial Bridge would speed-up the project and lower the cost while respecting the historic and iconic nature of this crossing. In my personal opinion, that is a good idea, especially if it gets the pain over with more quickly, and has the added bonus of getting the bridge open to bus traffic again (mostly tourist buses, but also some transit). 

My biggest concern with a possible total closure is the amount of non-motorized traffic crossing this bridge - detours via I-395 or I-66 are long (especially for pedestrian traffic), especially for trips between the Lincoln Memorial and Arlington Cemetery. Not clear to me if a total reconstruction can be handled while keeping the bridge open for the bikes and walkers.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on March 05, 2016, 07:57:18 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 03, 2016, 09:51:21 PM
Quote from: froggie on March 03, 2016, 08:49:18 PM
There's precedent.  The Mendota Bridge in Minnesota is a concrete arch bridge that has long been on the National Register.  MnDOT completely rebuilt it above the arches about 20 years ago.  While doing the same thing here would be a traffic nightmare during the reconstruction, it's certainly an option that has the above-mentioned precedent.

It has been suggested that a total closure of the Arlington Memorial Bridge would speed-up the project and lower the cost while respecting the historic and iconic nature of this crossing. In my personal opinion, that is a good idea, especially if it gets the pain over with more quickly, and has the added bonus of getting the bridge open to bus traffic again (mostly tourist buses, but also some transit). 

My biggest concern with a possible total closure is the amount of non-motorized traffic crossing this bridge - detours via I-395 or I-66 are long (especially for pedestrian traffic), especially for trips between the Lincoln Memorial and Arlington Cemetery. Not clear to me if a total reconstruction can be handled while keeping the bridge open for the bikes and walkers.

I had no idea the 14th St. Bridge had a pedestrian/bike path.  (on all three spans?)

Does Columbia Island have *any* pedestrian/bike friendly paths?

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on March 05, 2016, 08:35:10 AM
The Mt. Vernon bike trail starts in Rosslyn (technically at the end of the Custis Trail along I-66), passes over the GWMP and onto Columbia Island, has branches that head across the Memorial Bridge and towards the Pentagon parking lot, leaves Columbia Island for "the mainland" at the Humpback bridge, has another branch that feeds a path that crosses the Potomac on the north side of the southbound I-395 George Mason Memorial Bridge, and parallels the GWMP past National Airport, thru Alexandria, and winds up where one would expect a trail of that name to wind up.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 05, 2016, 09:45:32 AM
The 14th Street Bridge has a pedestrian/bike path on the southbound span. On the DC side you access it near the back of the Jefferson Memorial.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on March 05, 2016, 12:15:53 PM
Maybe the ACE can build a temporary trestle span for bikes an Peds.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: KEVIN_224 on March 05, 2016, 07:17:38 PM
You can also walk over the Key Bridge between Arlington (Rosslyn) and Washington DC (Georgetown). I did the southern side into DC and then the northern side into Virginia back on May 29, 2015. I don't know about riding a bike though.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 05, 2016, 07:39:30 PM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on March 05, 2016, 07:17:38 PM
You can also walk over the Key Bridge between Arlington (Rosslyn) and Washington DC (Georgetown). I did the southern side into DC and then the northern side into Virginia back on May 29, 2015. I don't know about riding a bike though.

Plenty of bikes use the Key Bridge (U.S. 29) crossing.  The only one that does not get much use is the T. Roosevelt Bridge (I-66 and U.S. 50).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cl94 on March 05, 2016, 08:51:36 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 05, 2016, 07:39:30 PM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on March 05, 2016, 07:17:38 PM
You can also walk over the Key Bridge between Arlington (Rosslyn) and Washington DC (Georgetown). I did the southern side into DC and then the northern side into Virginia back on May 29, 2015. I don't know about riding a bike though.

Plenty of bikes use the Key Bridge (U.S. 29) crossing.  The only one that does not get much use is the T. Roosevelt Bridge (I-66 and U.S. 50).

With good reason. It's a PITA for bikes and pedestrians to use the bridge, especially because the western end of the path leading to the bridge is at the foot of the Key Bridge and the east side isn't much better.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 06, 2016, 08:54:29 AM
All of the side paths are frustratingly narrow. Memorial bridge has the only decent sidepath.

Key Bridge has the issue of having the "intersection of doom" on the Rosslyn side, where motorists have a tendency to hit bikers and pedestrians (so they can save 30 seconds on their commute by not letting the crosswalk clear out before turning)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 06, 2016, 10:37:18 AM
The path on the Roosevelt Bridge's south side isn't much good because, if I remember correctly, it doesn't connect to anything on the Virginia side–it just dumps you into the grassy area in the middle of the various high-speed ramps. I know I walked across it in June 1991 on the day of the Desert Storm parade (Memorial Bridge was closed for the parade), but I just don't have a clear mental image of precisely where the south side path dropped me.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: andrewkbrown on March 06, 2016, 12:35:55 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 06, 2016, 10:37:18 AM
The path on the Roosevelt Bridge's south side isn't much good because, if I remember correctly, it doesn't connect to anything on the Virginia side–it just dumps you into the grassy area in the middle of the various high-speed ramps. I know I walked across it in June 1991 on the day of the Desert Storm parade (Memorial Bridge was closed for the parade), but I just don't have a clear mental image of precisely where the south side path dropped me.

I found that out while walking along the Roosevelt Bridge's south side myself last year. The path just ends on the ramp from Arlington Blvd to I-66 EB, near the grove of trees in the center.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8909114,-77.0657308,173m/data=!3m1!1e3

I know now from Google Maps that the north side bridge path eventually connects with the Mt. Vernon Trail near the footbridge to Roosevelt Island. But it looks like the only access to that path on the DC side is in front of the Kennedy Center.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on March 07, 2016, 08:37:53 AM
Correct.  There's a way to get there from Juárez Circle, but it's indirect which is why there have for many years been calls for a better connection to the Rock Creek Pkwy path via the south side of the Kennedy Center.  I've seen preliminary designs for such a connection but they just haven't happened yet.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 07, 2016, 02:51:21 PM
They appear to be doing some kind of work on that path as part of the construction at the Kennedy Center, but I don't know what and I haven't gotten a good look as I drive past because (a) it's been too dark and (b) I'm always focused on the merge there. Today my wife drove, so maybe I'll get to take a look if the traffic is slow enough. I can't help but wonder if they're building some sort of ramp or stairs.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on March 09, 2016, 12:45:39 PM
Quote from: andrewkbrown on March 06, 2016, 12:35:55 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 06, 2016, 10:37:18 AM
The path on the Roosevelt Bridge's south side isn't much good because, if I remember correctly, it doesn't connect to anything on the Virginia side–it just dumps you into the grassy area in the middle of the various high-speed ramps. I know I walked across it in June 1991 on the day of the Desert Storm parade (Memorial Bridge was closed for the parade), but I just don't have a clear mental image of precisely where the south side path dropped me.

I found that out while walking along the Roosevelt Bridge's south side myself last year. The path just ends on the ramp from Arlington Blvd to I-66 EB, near the grove of trees in the center.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8909114,-77.0657308,173m/data=!3m1!1e3

I know now from Google Maps that the north side bridge path eventually connects with the Mt. Vernon Trail near the footbridge to Roosevelt Island. But it looks like the only access to that path on the DC side is in front of the Kennedy Center.

Heh.  Back in the summer of 2004, I ended up on the wrong sidewalk across the bridge, trying to get to Theodore Roosevelt Island.

I just ran across the GWMP.  Sat atop the rock-wall median for a bit, but made it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2016, 12:50:56 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2016, 12:45:39 PM
Heh.  Back in the summer of 2004, I ended up on the wrong sidewalk across the bridge, trying to get to Theodore Roosevelt Island.

I just ran across the GWMP.  Sat atop the rock-wall median for a bit, but made it.

A bad road to cross on foot. 

There's an at-grade bike and pedestrian crossing of the northbound Parkway on Columbia Island in D.C. that has had more than a few crashes.  In spite of the 40 MPH posted limit, most drivers regard that as the minimum speed, not the maximum speed limit.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 09, 2016, 04:17:26 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2016, 12:50:56 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 09, 2016, 12:45:39 PM
Heh.  Back in the summer of 2004, I ended up on the wrong sidewalk across the bridge, trying to get to Theodore Roosevelt Island.

I just ran across the GWMP.  Sat atop the rock-wall median for a bit, but made it.

A bad road to cross on foot. 

There's an at-grade bike and pedestrian crossing of the northbound Parkway on Columbia Island in D.C. that has had more than a few crashes.  In spite of the 40 MPH posted limit, most drivers regard that as the minimum speed, not the maximum speed limit.

They're all taking in the sights along the Parkway, just as the National Park Service envisioned, right?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 10, 2016, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on March 09, 2016, 04:17:26 PM
They're all taking in the sights along the Parkway, just as the National Park Service envisioned, right?

Wrong.

The drivers treat the G.W. Memorial Parkway as a freeway (I have been nearly rear-ended several times for stopping at that crossing on Columbia Island).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 10, 2016, 01:08:16 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 10, 2016, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on March 09, 2016, 04:17:26 PM
They're all taking in the sights along the Parkway, just as the National Park Service envisioned, right?

Wrong.

The drivers treat the G.W. Memorial Parkway as a freeway (I have been nearly rear-ended several times for stopping at that crossing on Columbia Island).

Yes, I'm well-aware and was being facetious. I have made many crossings of the Parkway on bike, and I take my life into my hands whenever I trust a crosswalk (I won't go until I get visual ID from both lanes).

It's utter madness and stupidity that the NPS continues the farce of the "park" aspect of it (http://www.nps.gov/gwmp/index.htm):

QuoteThe George Washington Memorial Parkway was designed for recreational driving. It links sites that commemorate important episodes in American history and preserve habitat for local wildlife. The parkway and its associated trails provide a scenic place to play and rest in the busy Washington, DC metropolitan area.

I don't see how anyone can say that with a straight face.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: andrewkbrown on March 10, 2016, 10:37:00 PM
NPS must be referring to the GW Parkway south of Alexandria to Mt. Vernon.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 10, 2016, 11:04:50 PM
Quote from: andrewkbrown on March 10, 2016, 10:37:00 PM
NPS must be referring to the GW Parkway south of Alexandria to Mt. Vernon.

No, the entire Parkway. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 12, 2016, 09:00:42 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 07, 2016, 02:51:21 PM
They appear to be doing some kind of work on that path as part of the construction at the Kennedy Center, but I don't know what and I haven't gotten a good look as I drive past because (a) it's been too dark and (b) I'm always focused on the merge there. Today my wife drove, so maybe I'll get to take a look if the traffic is slow enough. I can't help but wonder if they're building some sort of ramp or stairs.

Following up on this comment: On Friday I finished work early and took the subway to Nationals Park to redeem some rainchecks for bobbleheads. The car was parked at my wife's office, a 3.5-mile walk from there, so I took the subway to Smithsonian and then walked the remaining 2.25 miles down the Mall, past the Lincoln Memorial, and up Rock Creek Parkway to the crossing behind the Watergate. Passing the Kennedy Center construction the most obvious thing is a big mess. But there is some sort of paved path connecting up to the Roosevelt Bridge north side path. It looks inaccessible at the moment. It is unclear whether this is something permanent because it looks too steep to be practical for normal use, and it's also unclear from the signs how far the extended building will stretch.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 14, 2016, 10:36:01 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 12, 2016, 09:00:42 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 07, 2016, 02:51:21 PM
They appear to be doing some kind of work on that path as part of the construction at the Kennedy Center, but I don't know what and I haven't gotten a good look as I drive past because (a) it's been too dark and (b) I'm always focused on the merge there. Today my wife drove, so maybe I'll get to take a look if the traffic is slow enough. I can't help but wonder if they're building some sort of ramp or stairs.

Following up on this comment: On Friday I finished work early and took the subway to Nationals Park to redeem some rainchecks for bobbleheads. The car was parked at my wife's office, a 3.5-mile walk from there, so I took the subway to Smithsonian and then walked the remaining 2.25 miles down the Mall, past the Lincoln Memorial, and up Rock Creek Parkway to the crossing behind the Watergate. Passing the Kennedy Center construction the most obvious thing is a big mess. But there is some sort of paved path connecting up to the Roosevelt Bridge north side path. It looks inaccessible at the moment. It is unclear whether this is something permanent because it looks too steep to be practical for normal use, and it's also unclear from the signs how far the extended building will stretch.

IMO the access to the Teddy Roosevelt Bridge from the D.C. side has always been clumsy (at best).  The Virginia side, where it ties in to the Mount Vernon Trail, is pretty good, but the trail surface is not that good when wet. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 31, 2016, 02:00:13 AM
Washington Post: Nuclear Security Summit means "˜tough' times for D.C. traffic this week (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2016/03/28/nuclear-security-summit-means-tough-times-for-d-c-traffic-this-week/)

QuoteD.C. officials warned that the Nuclear Security Summit this week will cause major traffic woes in the city.

QuoteThursday and Friday "will be tough traffic days,"   the District's homeland security chief, Chris Geldhart, said at a Monday news conference.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on April 13, 2016, 03:05:32 PM
TPB has written up a short study of traffic conditions (http://www.tpbne.ws/featured/a-day-without-metro-meant-worse-traffic-for-some-but-not-others/) on the day of the Metro shut down last month.  The study compared traffic conditions on that "shutdown" day (3/16) to conditions on the previous Wednesday (3/9), considered a "typical" Wednesday.  Here's a quick synopsis of key points:

- Overall, traffic conditions on shutdown day were slightly worse than normal, although there are notable geographical differences.  Traffic was overall worse in the "regional core" (defined as DC, Alexandria, and Arlington County), but better overall in the suburbs.

- Inside the Beltway, the major inbound freeways all experienced negative impacts during the morning peak (defined as the 7am hour), with the biggest impacts being on northbound I-395 and I-295.  The inbound HOV facilities (I-66 and the I-395 HOV lanes) saw slight degradation, but not nearly to the extent that the mainline freeways and other facilities (i.e. GW Pkwy) saw.

- Outside the Beltway, the only inbound freeway to see a negative impact during the morning peak was I-270, likely a result of losing the Red Line from Shady Grove south.  Other inbound freeways generally held steady, although a few (namely I-95, I-66, and the DTR in Virginia, and US 50 in PGC) saw improvements over normal morning peak traffic.

- The study didn't specifically discuss the Beltway, although looking at the attached traffic maps, there didn't seem to be a significant change overall during the morning peak.  Traffic appeared worse on the Inner Loop through Tysons and on both sides through Largo, but better on the Inner Loop through MoCo.

- The evening peak (defined as the 5pm hour) was a very different story.  As a general rule, evening traffic on shutdown day was far lighter than normal.  The study suggests two possible reasons for this:  A) workers and commuters adjusted their departure times to avoid the peak, thereby spreading traffic out, and/or B) people took fewer discretionary trips in the evening, which had the effect of reducing traffic.  Either way, regionwide traffic was down 4% compared to normal.

- As opposed to the morning peak, the core jurisdictions saw the most improvement over normal during the evening peak, and Fairfax County also saw a significant reduction compared to normal.  As a general rule, the inner jurisdictions saw reduction while the outer jurisdictions saw little or no change compared to normal.

- Most outbound freeways, both inside and outside the Beltway, saw reductions in travel times compared to normal.  Those that didn't see a reduction had little or no change from normal.  The biggest reductions from normal were on I-295 and I-395 inside the Beltway, and on I-66 outside the Beltway.

- Comparing the traffic maps, the Beltway appears to have had overall improvement as well, particularly at the Wilson Bridge approaches (both sides), the Outer Loop through PGC, and the Inner Loop from Tysons to 270.  Other areas of the Beltway appeared to have no change compared to normal during the evening peak.  Notable congestion remained on the Outer Loop from MoCo to Tysons, the Inner Loop through MoCo and from Greenbelt to Largo, and the Outer Loop south of Tysons.  The Inner Loop from Largo to Andrews appears to have been worse than normal.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: BrianP on April 14, 2016, 02:10:30 PM
Looking where things got worse could be useful.  But looking where things got better I think isn't very useful.  Any improvement seen was probably from people staying home since it was a one day event.  Given a week or more shutdown would give better data.  Especially if it wasn't during the summer where you have a larger fraction of people on vacation.  But it's not like you could do that just to get data.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on April 14, 2016, 08:02:02 PM
Quote from: BrianP on April 14, 2016, 02:10:30 PM
Looking where things got worse could be useful.  But looking where things got better I think isn't very useful.  Any improvement seen was probably from people staying home since it was a one day event.  Given a week or more shutdown would give better data.  Especially if it wasn't during the summer where you have a larger fraction of people on vacation.  But it's not like you could do that just to get data.

Bingo. There are limits to how much productivity can be achieved via telework, particularly in government, which inherently requires committees and meetings and such. So maybe you can compress a bunch of personal work into a single telework day, but not a business week's worth of work.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 14, 2016, 03:34:28 PM
Never noticed this before. Yesterday afternoon I had some time to kill between the time I got off work and the time my wife got off work and I decided to walk over to Georgetown. But with all the rain lately I had left my sunglasses in the car, which was at her office, so I walked over there to get them and I took a new route that took me along the wall above the stub end of I-66 near the Watergate just north of the tunnel under Virginia Avenue/Juarez Circle. I found the way they put up these lights to be quite interesting. Perfectly sensible design, just very interesting, reminded me of some of the castles and citadels I've visited over the years.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2F7a7f51b1e9df131232c1146b54fb5999_zps5kjwaj11.jpg&hash=59c6fe00c10c066e605666be97734e30877a2c03)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2F24a66ecd084a74603005e3b1b0c748f1_zpssuymdbeb.jpg&hash=d09b9fd9100eacba4dac1e0a53e44f96209e2fb5)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on May 14, 2016, 04:28:36 PM
Yes, 1995hoo, I've always liked the masonry work on some of DC's post-WW2 overpasses.

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mariethefoxy on May 15, 2016, 04:25:29 PM
do they still have that sign bridge in that area with the random covered up signs?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 15, 2016, 05:17:19 PM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on May 15, 2016, 04:25:29 PM
do they still have that sign bridge in that area with the random covered up signs?
Yes, the one with the wooden panels over the signs. In the first picture, it's through the tunnel to the left of where I was standing.

I wonder how long that thing has left before it comes down. The District has replaced a lot of signs in recent years, though on a sporadic basis. They haven't done a lot in that area, other than a few small signs on Virginia Avenue (can't say "LGSs" since one of them is white), but when they do come through, it'll likely be with a vengeance. WTOP mentioned that particular sign bridge in an online photo essay within the past year, which is the main reason I wonder how long it'll survive.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on May 16, 2016, 02:35:04 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2016, 05:17:19 PM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on May 15, 2016, 04:25:29 PM
do they still have that sign bridge in that area with the random covered up signs?
Yes, the one with the wooden panels over the signs. In the first picture, it's through the tunnel to the left of where I was standing.

I wonder how long that thing has left before it comes down. The District has replaced a lot of signs in recent years, though on a sporadic basis. They haven't done a lot in that area, other than a few small signs on Virginia Avenue (can't say "LGSs" since one of them is white), but when they do come through, it'll likely be with a vengeance. WTOP mentioned that particular sign bridge in an online photo essay within the past year, which is the main reason I wonder how long it'll survive.

Personally, I can't wait for it to come down, since we'll finally learn what's underneath (I don't think anyone knows for sure).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 16, 2016, 06:52:44 PM
We might learn, anyway. Might not. I hope we would get to see a picture of the uncovered signs, at least.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 17, 2016, 09:03:19 PM
GGW has an item about a possible new loop ramp off K Street towards I-66 as part of a proposed streetcar extension to Georgetown:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/30833/a-streetcar-to-georgetown-could-add-a-loop-ramp-under-k-street-and-a-pedestrian-walkway/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on May 18, 2016, 07:22:38 AM
Goal being to eliminate the left turn lane and the left turn signal phase from westbound K to southbound 27th.  Makes it easier to route the streetcar through and down into lower Georgetown.  Also makes it easier for those in the West End, or along the K St corridor, to get onto 66.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on May 22, 2016, 02:55:34 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on March 10, 2016, 01:08:16 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 10, 2016, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on March 09, 2016, 04:17:26 PM
They're all taking in the sights along the Parkway, just as the National Park Service envisioned, right?

Wrong.

The drivers treat the G.W. Memorial Parkway as a freeway (I have been nearly rear-ended several times for stopping at that crossing on Columbia Island).

Yes, I'm well-aware and was being facetious. I have made many crossings of the Parkway on bike, and I take my life into my hands whenever I trust a crosswalk (I won't go until I get visual ID from both lanes).

It's utter madness and stupidity that the NPS continues the farce of the "park" aspect of it (http://www.nps.gov/gwmp/index.htm):

QuoteThe George Washington Memorial Parkway was designed for recreational driving. It links sites that commemorate important episodes in American history and preserve habitat for local wildlife. The parkway and its associated trails provide a scenic place to play and rest in the busy Washington, DC metropolitan area.

I don't see how anyone can say that with a straight face.

For many of the NPS routes, It is a shame that there are restrictions on putting in place traffic signals.  There are many points along Beach Road or the GW Pkwy exit to Memorial Bridge that would be so much safer with traffic signals.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 22, 2016, 11:05:48 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 22, 2016, 02:55:34 PM
For many of the NPS routes, It is a shame that there are restrictions on putting in place traffic signals.  There are many points along Beach Road or the GW Pkwy exit to Memorial Bridge that would be so much safer with traffic signals.

Though there are signals on at several places on the NPS-maintained parkway system in the Washington area.

Including these (list is not all-inclusive):

George Washington Memorial Parkway at Slaters Lane (Alexandria)
Clara Barton Parkway at Chain Bridge/Canal Road, N.W.
Ohio Drive and Independence Avenue, S.W.
17th Street and Independence Avenue, S.W.
15th Street and Independence Avenue, S.W.
Several along Constitution Avenue, N.W. between 23rd Street and 17th Street (some are maintained by DDOT)
Naylor Road and Suitland Parkway
Forestville Road and Suitland Parkway
Beach Drive, N.W. at Park Road
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mattpedersen on May 24, 2016, 08:06:58 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 22, 2016, 11:05:48 PM
Forestville Road and Suitland Parkway
That one is maintained by Prince George's County DPWT
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 24, 2016, 11:46:18 PM
Quote from: mattpedersen on May 24, 2016, 08:06:58 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 22, 2016, 11:05:48 PM
Forestville Road and Suitland Parkway
That one is maintained by Prince George's County DPWT

Agreed.  And the (soon to be gone) signal at Md. 4 and the Suitland Parkway is SHA-maintained. 

Not sure if SHA or NPS maintains the signal at Md. 637 (Naylor Road) and the Suitland Parkway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mattpedersen on June 10, 2016, 04:38:25 PM
Well, the Naylor Road one is maintained by SHA. Its in the signal plan locator and the new fixtures that are being installed are unmistakable SHA spec.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 10, 2016, 05:34:32 PM
Quote from: mattpedersen on June 10, 2016, 04:38:25 PM
Well, the Naylor Road one is maintained by SHA. Its in the signal plan locator and the new fixtures that are being installed are unmistakable SHA spec.

I think that signal may have been NPS-spec or even D.C.-spec in the distant past (say 15 or 20 years ago).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 12, 2016, 03:37:10 PM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on May 15, 2016, 04:25:29 PM
do they still have that sign bridge in that area with the random covered up signs?

I walked past there on Friday on my way to meet my wife after work (we park at her office near that sign bridge), so I took a few pictures.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FMiscellaneous%2520spring%25202016%2520122_zpsiwhkrpvh.jpg&hash=f397b12e324dc28c2ea162d94e339abb0b1d00ac)  (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FMiscellaneous%2520spring%25202016%2520121_zpspqznssl2.jpg&hash=7fb7f7c3244ef1142d5e5806dbd066fba9d99059)


The previous two pictures were taken from the sidewalk on 25 Street across from the Saudi Arabian embassy. Nearby, there is what should be an excellent vantage point on a walkway just off Juarez Circle. Unfortunately, it's become a refuse dump, apparently for homeless people. (At least there were no visible condoms or wrappers. Thursday morning there was an open condom wrapper on the inner sidewalk at Washington Circle. I did not stop to see whether the rubber itself was anywhere to be seen.)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FMiscellaneous%2520spring%25202016%2520113_zpsbjacjvyv.jpg&hash=6238aae7d2da1600e38998d504ac3235ae114b8d)  (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FMiscellaneous%2520spring%25202016%2520118_zps8rhratrz.jpg&hash=e83c645d7edd03752c998099111df7d2c154d43c)


This is the sort of view you get from that walkway. I don't know why people seem to feel the need to drive on the shoulder.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FMiscellaneous%2520spring%25202016%2520110_zps9rxwxuob.jpg&hash=f1a95d090567447dfc9d31ce25d645ab85922631)  (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FMiscellaneous%2520spring%25202016%2520117_zps5wlvj74i.jpg&hash=f243c4589f8e543b7b054295806c48f9e4ede866)


Edited to add: BTW, we've all speculated about the probability of there being an I-695 sign on the far left. What about the far right? There's something else covered over there, and certainly the shoulder is wide enough to support another lane. Does anyone know if there was at one point to have been an exit to the Kennedy Center, perhaps? A US-50 sign wouldn't really be logical at that location even though the Roosevelt Bridge carries it, and it's too far back for a GW Parkway sign. (Plus in either case presumably there'd be no need to cover those signs.) A Kennedy Center exit would make no sense with the roads as they are now, but had I-66 been finished there might have been some use for it. (I do not remember when the ramp to the Roosevelt Bridge from near the security guard's booth opened, but I seem to recall it wasn't there when I was a kid. We use it now on our commute home on days when we drive because it's easy access to I-66 and the HOV-2 restriction.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: HTM Duke on June 12, 2016, 05:42:47 PM
I know there was an exit for the Kennedy Center there at one point, but the only photographic evidence I've been able to find was a fuzzy picture on the DCRoads.net (http://www.dcroads.net/roads/potomac-river/img2.gif) website, along with an aerial view from 2002 from Historic Aerials (though barricaded).  From what I can remember, around 2002 or so, the Kennedy Center underwent renovations, and the ramp was removed as well.  Also, arrow patches were added to signage leading to the Kennedy Center form the Whitehurst Freeway (https://goo.gl/maps/p4tazbJZRow), instructing drivers to use US-29/K St instead of I-66.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on June 12, 2016, 10:52:55 PM
Quote from: HTM Duke on June 12, 2016, 05:42:47 PM
I know there was an exit for the Kennedy Center there at one point, but the only photographic evidence I've been able to find was a fuzzy picture on the DCRoads.net (http://www.dcroads.net/roads/potomac-river/img2.gif) website, along with an aerial view from 2002 from Historic Aerials (though barricaded).  From what I can remember, around 2002 or so, the Kennedy Center underwent renovations, and the ramp was removed as well.  Also, arrow patches were added to signage leading to the Kennedy Center form the Whitehurst Freeway (https://goo.gl/maps/p4tazbJZRow), instructing drivers to use US-29/K St instead of I-66.
I had the same speculation and learned the same thing. Yes, that was absolutely a former ramp.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 13, 2016, 07:42:26 AM
Thanks. Really interesting. I'm a little chagrined that I do not remember that exit, seeing as how I've lived in the area since 1974, but I've almost never used I-66 in that direction (I rarely went to that area at all prior to my wife working there unless I was going to the Kennedy Center, which was rare enough), so I guess it makes sense that I don't remember it.

If it weren't for the rush hour HOV-2 restriction, which benefits us time-wise in the afternoon even though it's out of our way distance-wise, I pretty much wouldn't use I-66 inside the Beltway at all other than the brief DC stub in the other direction during the morning rush hour.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on June 13, 2016, 12:03:39 PM
The off-ramp to the Kennedy Center (which also went to northbound Rock Creek Pkwy) was still in place and open around 9/11 time.  It was barricaded by March, 2002, likely concurrent with the aforementioned renovations.  The access road in front of the Kennedy Center was completed in the latter half of 2004 (a temporary access road existed through much of 2002 and 2003).  The new ramp from the access road to WB 66 was not completed until mid-2005.

If you have Google Earth, there are several earlier aerial images that show the old ramp and the transition progress to the current configuration.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 13, 2016, 01:38:34 PM
Thanks, I'll view that and Historic Aerials some other time. The office blocks that sort of stuff and I don't like viewing it on my phone, too small to be useful.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mattpedersen on June 20, 2016, 05:55:04 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 10, 2016, 05:34:32 PM
Quote from: mattpedersen on June 10, 2016, 04:38:25 PM
Well, the Naylor Road one is maintained by SHA. Its in the signal plan locator and the new fixtures that are being installed are unmistakable SHA spec.

I think that signal may have been NPS-spec or even D.C.-spec in the distant past (say 15 or 20 years ago).

The previous signal was NPS-spec or DC-spec for sure. I have vague memories of it. All the signals were on short poles, none were over head. The Forestville Road signal was generic PG DPW&T spec.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on June 21, 2016, 08:18:35 AM
Whatever it may have been before, by 2008 it was certainly not DDOT-spec.  The iteration from that time through at least 2014 was neither PGC, SHA, or DDOT spec.  Given that it was similar to formats I'd seen on various military bases, I assumed it was a Federal or NPS thing.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mattpedersen on June 29, 2016, 02:07:04 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 21, 2016, 08:18:35 AM
Whatever it may have been before, by 2008 it was certainly not DDOT-spec.  The iteration from that time through at least 2014 was neither PGC, SHA, or DDOT spec.  Given that it was similar to formats I'd seen on various military bases, I assumed it was a Federal or NPS thing.

That DDOT spec signal was replaced when Suitland Parkway was rebuilt in the late 1980s
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 29, 2016, 06:43:12 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 21, 2016, 08:18:35 AM
Whatever it may have been before, by 2008 it was certainly not DDOT-spec.

I am talking the period (roughly) from 1967 to 1985.

I had a somewhat distant cousin from Cleveland, Ohio who was a student at GWU and had some mental health issues (I think it was what was dubbed a "nervous breakdown" and as a result was a patient at St. Elizabeth's Hospital) in the late 1960's.  He would sometimes come along on a day pass when we went to visit my grandparents in southern Anne Arundel County, and we took the Suitland Parkway out to Md. 4 (in those days, all of the Parkway was under NPS maintenance (even in D.C.) and it was an almost-Super-2-type of road beyond the interchange at Md. 458 (Silver Hill Road), where it narrowed from 4 lanes divided to 2 lanes undivided).

Back then, the signal heads at Md. 637 (Naylor Road) were definitely in the "D.C." style (pretty sure they were grey).

Quote from: froggie on June 21, 2016, 08:18:35 AM
The iteration from that time through at least 2014 was neither PGC, SHA, or DDOT spec.  Given that it was similar to formats I'd seen on various military bases, I assumed it was a Federal or NPS thing.

NPS would be my choice.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 06, 2016, 01:05:09 AM
Washington Post: Corroded Memorial Bridge gets $90 million grant for major overhaul (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/corroded-memorial-bridge-gets-90-million-grant-for-major-overall/2016/07/05/e1ffe3a6-42e1-11e6-8856-f26de2537a9d_story.html)

QuoteThe Arlington Memorial Bridge, a symbol both of American ingenuity and the nation's sagging infrastructure, has received a $90 million grant for a massive reconstruction project, officials said Tuesday.

QuoteThe infusion of federal dollars marks a major step toward restoring the deteriorating bridge, but it does not fully fund the project, which the National Park Service has estimated will cost $250 million. It is not clear where the rest of the money will come from, although the Park Service could seek additional federal money.

QuotePark Service Director Jonathan B. Jarvis said the bridge, which carries 68,000 vehicles a day, will need to be shut to traffic in 2021 if the overhaul is not done. He said it would turn into a "footbridge."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 06, 2016, 10:24:54 AM
I wonder if they would (could?) rebuild the span as not a drawbridge. Can't remember any time in my lifetime that the drawbridge was raised, and I don't see any future need for it to raise. I presume it would save money as well.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: machpost on July 06, 2016, 10:44:59 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 06, 2016, 10:24:54 AM
I wonder if they would (could?) rebuild the span as not a drawbridge. Can't remember any time in my lifetime that the drawbridge was raised, and I don't see any future need for it to raise. I presume it would save money as well.

That Post article mentions that the drawspan hasn't been opened since 1961. So it would appear that there's no need for the drawbridge mechanism to be maintained.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 06, 2016, 01:47:05 PM
Quote from: machpost on July 06, 2016, 10:44:59 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 06, 2016, 10:24:54 AM
I wonder if they would (could?) rebuild the span as not a drawbridge. Can't remember any time in my lifetime that the drawbridge was raised, and I don't see any future need for it to raise. I presume it would save money as well.

That Post article mentions that the drawspan hasn't been opened since 1961. So it would appear that there's no need for the drawbridge mechanism to be maintained.

It's not necessary to have the drawspan because the two upstream spans at the 14th Street Bridge (HOV and SB spans) are fixed spans, as is the Roosevelt Bridge. So there's pretty much no reason why the Memorial Bridge drawspan would ever open again.

I read something a few months ago that indicated they would permanently disable it, but that to remove it altogether and rebuild it would be insanely expensive.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 06, 2016, 02:47:48 PM
Come to think of it, I think the South Capital Street Bridge (d/b/a Douglass Bridge) will be rebuilt without a drawbridge mechanism, which was the impetus for removing Display Ship Barry from the Washington Navy Yard.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 06, 2016, 03:52:24 PM
That was part of it.  The other part was that the Navy and the Navy Yard were becoming increasingly disinterested in maintenance of the old Barry.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 06, 2016, 04:33:04 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 06, 2016, 03:52:24 PM
That was part of it.  The other part was that the Navy and the Navy Yard were becoming increasingly disinterested in maintenance of the old Barry.

Sad...an influx of myopic twits will inhabit the Navy Yard area, without any knowledge of its industrial past.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 06, 2016, 08:54:27 PM
Technically the current bridge is a swing bridge, rather than a drawbridge, but your point remains valid.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: machpost on July 11, 2016, 01:09:17 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 06, 2016, 03:52:24 PM
That was part of it.  The other part was that the Navy and the Navy Yard were becoming increasingly disinterested in maintenance of the old Barry.

If I'm not mistaken, the Barry was towed away to be scrapped a few months ago.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 11, 2016, 02:17:15 PM
Quote from: machpost on July 11, 2016, 01:09:17 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 06, 2016, 03:52:24 PM
That was part of it.  The other part was that the Navy and the Navy Yard were becoming increasingly disinterested in maintenance of the old Barry.

If I'm not mistaken, the Barry was towed away to be scrapped a few months ago.

Correct.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 11, 2016, 03:40:02 PM
Dr. Gridlock of the Washington Post had an online discussion (https://live.washingtonpost.com/gridlock0711.html?hpid=hp_local-news_livechat-gridlock-12pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory) today, and several entries were about the (lack of) District of Columbia traffic law enforcement
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 11, 2016, 11:12:36 PM
WTOP Radio: Do you know which freeway you're on? (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2016/08/do-you-know-which-freeway-youre-on/)

QuoteIt's the District's busiest road, yet most drivers don't even seem to know its name.

QuoteThe Southeast-Southwest Freeway is technically two separate interstates, Interstate 395 and Interstate 695, which join together near South Capitol Street. WTOP conducted an unofficial survey at an I-695 off-ramp along 6th Street SE to find out what drivers on the busy freeway call it.

QuoteWTOP questioned 53 people between noon and 5 p.m. Wednesday, Aug. 10.

QuoteWhen asked how they refer to the road that they just exited from, more than half of the drivers, 56 percent, misidentified it as I-395 or didn't know. About 24 percent correctly identified it as I-695. Roughly one in six drivers referred to it by its colloquial name, the Southeast-Southwest Freeway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 14, 2016, 10:06:41 AM
Washington Post: After persistent fraud, District is readying reform of disabled parking (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/after-persistent-fraud-district-is-readying-reform-of-disabled-parking/2016/08/13/7b9c2952-5fe8-11e6-af8e-54aa2e849447_story.html)

QuoteMotorists have been abusing disabled parking permits in the District for more than 15 years, and city officials haven't been able to stop them.

QuoteNow, after consulting for more than a year with advocates for people with disabilities, business groups and others, city officials are finalizing an overhaul they think can prevent the cheating and save reserved parking spaces for those who truly need them.

QuoteOfficials would dramatically scale back the reserved parking system for the disabled, focusing on areas in the city's center where they think the need is greatest. And, taking a cue from efforts to fight such fraud in other cities, people with disability parking placards would no longer be able to park free downtown.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on August 14, 2016, 01:03:33 PM
The Arlington approach to it is "All may park, all must pay", as in, while they will reserve certain street parking spaces for the disabled, they don't let you park for free due to your disability.

After reading the article, just saw this:

QuoteArlington County, Va., and Philadelphia are among the jurisdictions that slashed abuse by making all parkers pay. Within months of the change, disability-placard usage dropped from 30 percent of all metered spaces in Philadelphia to about 7 percent, indicating either a health "miracle"  or a reduction in fraud, officials there said.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on August 15, 2016, 09:44:16 AM
They should've done this the last time parking policy was revised (within the past few years).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 15, 2016, 11:40:06 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 15, 2016, 09:44:16 AM
They should've done this the last time parking policy was revised (within the past few years).

A lot of those handicapped hang tags are, I believe, fraudulently used in the District of Columbia. 

Either out-and-out counterfeit, or issued to someone other than the user. 

The D.C. parking ticket writers do not seem to pay much attention, and they probably cannot do much about it anyway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on August 15, 2016, 08:38:33 PM
If the Arlington experience is any indication, that fraudulent use will diminish significantly when/if they required handicapped users to feed the meters.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on August 15, 2016, 08:47:43 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 15, 2016, 08:38:33 PM
If the Arlington experience is any indication, that fraudulent use will diminish significantly when/if they required handicapped users to feed the meters.

But some of the handicapped users will complain that because of their disabilities, they can't feed the meters. The most interesting excuse I've heard is from one guy who said his fingers could not grip a credit card to slide it into and out of a reader. (Which might be true, but there are other ways to pay for parking, such as by smartphone, at least in D.C.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on August 15, 2016, 09:15:13 PM
Quote from: oscar on August 15, 2016, 08:47:43 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 15, 2016, 08:38:33 PM
If the Arlington experience is any indication, that fraudulent use will diminish significantly when/if they required handicapped users to feed the meters.

But some of the handicapped users will complain that because of their disabilities, they can't feed the meters. The most interesting excuse I've heard is from one guy who said his fingers could not grip a credit card to slide it into and out of a reader. (Which might be true, but there are other ways to pay for parking, such as by smartphone, at least in D.C.)

And yet, they're perfectly able to operate the various elements of their automobile!  :sombrero:
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 13, 2016, 02:14:49 PM
Washington Post: Beach Drive closure next week likely to cause abysmal traffic in Northwest D.C. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2016/09/12/beach-drive-closure-next-week-likely-to-cause-abysmal-traffic-in-northwest-d-c/)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 16, 2016, 01:37:42 PM
WTOP Radio: Why is traffic still so terrible? Welcome to the "˜September surge' (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2016/09/traffic-still-terrible-welcome-september-surge/)

QuoteForget "Terrible Traffic Tuesday"  – the term long used by D.C.-area commuters to describe the crush of traffic on the first day of work after Labor Day.

QuoteThe phenomenon of congested D.C. roadways and frustrated drivers has now stretched into a monthlong commuting headache for many. Welcome to the "September surge."

QuoteThe reasons for the troublesome traffic are fairly self-evident: The kids are back to school; Congress is back in session and motorcade season is in full swing, and some tourists unfamiliar with local roadways are still in town.

Quote"I think what we've seen is the evolution of the "˜terrible traffic Tuesday' into the September surge,"  said Jim Battagliese, WTOP's director of traffic and transit operations.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 26, 2016, 11:53:00 PM
Letter to the Editor in the Washington Post: The D.C. region will pay a steep price for deferring maintenance on its roads and rails (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-dc-region-will-pay-a-steep-price-for-deferring-maintenance-on-its-roads-and-rails/2016/09/26/69a90422-81d0-11e6-9578-558cc125c7ba_story.html)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on September 29, 2016, 07:58:01 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 26, 2016, 11:53:00 PM
Letter to the Editor in the Washington Post: The D.C. region will pay a steep price for deferring maintenance on its roads and rails (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-dc-region-will-pay-a-steep-price-for-deferring-maintenance-on-its-roads-and-rails/2016/09/26/69a90422-81d0-11e6-9578-558cc125c7ba_story.html)

He probably knows, having as he has been the head of Metro and Amtrak in his career.

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 30, 2016, 05:57:03 PM
WTOP Radio: Traffic officers, signal retiming no match for crush of DC traffic (http://wtop.com/dc/2016/09/traffic-officers-signal-retiming-no-match-for-crush-of-dc-traffic/)

QuoteAbout 75 percent of D.C. traffic lights have been adjusted recently to improve the flow of traffic, but it has not been enough to address some major congestion.

Quote"The streets of Washington are in gridlock these days,"  said Councilmember Jack Evans, who represents Ward 2.

Quote"It's a combination of a lot: Beach Drive being closed, Metro not working like it should, special events, who knows, people driving more. Do we have any thoughts both cosmetically and practically?"  Evans asked District Department of Transportation Director Leif Dormsjo at a D.C. Council roundtable this week.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 30, 2016, 06:04:56 PM
That WTOP article mentions the traffic control officers. I've seen plenty of people either ignoring them or arguing with them. Last week I was walking to the Metro and at the intersection of 19th & L one of the traffic control officers told a jaywalker to get back on the sidewalk (the light was about to turn) and the jaywalker started cursing and acting like "who the hell do you think you are." (In case anyone might wonder, the jaywalker was a white woman who appeared to be in her late 20s and the traffic control officer was a black woman who appeared to be 10 to 15 years older.) My reaction was, "Good for the traffic control officer."

The traffic has definitely been worse these past couple of weeks than in past years. I don't know whether it's due to Metrorail's problems, ruder drivers, frustration with the traffic causing more illegal behavior, or (most likely, in my view) all of the above plus other factors. I was driving this week because I was working longer hours, going in early and coming home later, and I've noticed there seems to be a lot more rude behavior just for the sake of being rude. It's like people are so conditioned to have the MFFY attitude that they act that way even when there's no reason for it. The other thing I REALLY don't understand is how people get outraged when you honk at them. If you don't move within a few seconds of the light going green, then I'm going to beep my horn because I assume you're not paying attention; if you then do it again at the next light, I will honk the horn (as opposed to beeping it). Some people become enraged even at the beep of the horn. Yesterday afternoon I could see the guy in front of me playing with his phone, and when he didn't move I beeped the horn; he then proceeded to give me the finger and to try to brake-check me multiple times before we even reached the light. WTF??? Your little text message does not get priority over the rest of us getting through the green light!

The parking enforcement needs to do more to deal with the delivery trucks blocking lanes during rush hours. Plenty of downtown streets have no-parking restrictions during the afternoon rush hour until 6:30, but it's hardly unusual on a three-lane street to find both the right and left lanes blocked by trucks, choking everyone down to a single lane.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 30, 2016, 07:04:49 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 30, 2016, 06:04:56 PM
That WTOP article mentions the traffic control officers. I've seen plenty of people either ignoring them or arguing with them. Last week I was walking to the Metro and at the intersection of 19th & L one of the traffic control officers told a jaywalker to get back on the sidewalk (the light was about to turn) and the jaywalker started cursing and acting like "who the hell do you think you are." (In case anyone might wonder, the jaywalker was a white woman who appeared to be in her late 20s and the traffic control officer was a black woman who appeared to be 10 to 15 years older.) My reaction was, "Good for the traffic control officer."

In my fantasy world, the people directing traffic at D.C. intersections would be armed Metropolitan Police Department (MPD) officers, not the DDOT Traffic Control Officers.

Additionally, the  MPD would re-establish its Traffic Branch (shuttered during one of the terms of late former Mayor-for-Life Marion Shepilov Barry, Jr.) to supply traffic officers to do traffic directing, general traffic enforcement, crash investigation (especially those crashes with serious injury or death), commercial vehicle enforcement; and tactical targeting of crotch rocket motorcycles, dirt bikes, "hoopdie" cars and "summer" cars (the goal being to get such vehicles off the streets and ownership forfeited, and in some cases their operators led away in handcuffs). 

The Traffic Branch  would also be involved in efforts to make D.C. streets safer for bikes and  pedestrians (in  spite of much talk about this, I get the impression that most MPD officers have little interest in the subject).

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 30, 2016, 06:04:56 PM
The traffic has definitely been worse these past couple of weeks than in past years. I don't know whether it's due to Metrorail's problems, ruder drivers, frustration with the traffic causing more illegal behavior, or (most likely, in my view) all of the above plus other factors. I was driving this week because I was working longer hours, going in early and coming home later, and I've noticed there seems to be a lot more rude behavior just for the sake of being rude. It's like people are so conditioned to have the MFFY attitude that they act that way even when there's no reason for it. The other thing I REALLY don't understand is how people get outraged when you honk at them. If you don't move within a few seconds of the light going green, then I'm going to beep my horn because I assume you're not paying attention; if you then do it again at the next light, I will honk the horn (as opposed to beeping it). Some people become enraged even at the beep of the horn. Yesterday afternoon I could see the guy in front of me playing with his phone, and when he didn't move I beeped the horn; he then proceeded to give me the finger and to try to brake-check me multiple times before we even reached the light. WTF??? Your little text message does not get priority over the rest of us getting through the green light!

The above are examples of "D.C. driving with an attitude," which  in some cases comes pretty close to what could result in  a reckless driving  charge if observed by police  in Virginia.

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 30, 2016, 06:04:56 PM
The parking enforcement needs to do more to deal with the delivery trucks blocking lanes during rush hours. Plenty of downtown streets have no-parking restrictions during the afternoon rush hour until 6:30, but it's hardly unusual on a three-lane street to find both the right and left lanes blocked by trucks, choking everyone down to a single lane.

The D.C. Department of Public Works (DCDPW) Parking Enforcement operation was established by the late former Mayor-for-Life in his first term, in 1979 or 1980 for two reasons:

(1) to collect more parking fine revenue from non-D.C. residents; and
(2) to provide more D.C. municipal employment.

Note that traffic congestion relief or traffic control is not on the list above, though sometimes the DCDPW does ticket and even  tow vehicles that are blocking traffic.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on September 30, 2016, 09:53:01 PM
If Trump wins maybe he can undo the executive order against DC freeways.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 01, 2016, 11:35:51 AM
Quote from: ARMOURERERICIf Trump wins maybe he can undo the executive order against DC freeways.

That wasn't just an executive order, but also part legal settlement and part DC's authority under Home Rule.  Nevermind that you'd still have to pay for those freeways...which these days would make construction of the Metrorail look cheap in comparison...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 01, 2016, 01:05:20 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 01, 2016, 11:35:51 AM
Quote from: ARMOURERERICIf Trump wins maybe he can undo the executive order against DC freeways.

That wasn't just an executive order, but also part legal settlement and part DC's authority under Home Rule.  Nevermind that you'd still have to pay for those freeways...which these days would make construction of the Metrorail look cheap in comparison...

Like it or not, anything that the D.C. Government does can be overruled by Congress (not the President alone), though in reality it is relatively rare, except for social issues like abortion.

Agreed that such freeways would have to be paid for. 

But I doubt seriously that freeway-class roads, even in D.C., would be as catastrophically expensive as Metrorail has been so far. 

Though  there's the issue of connecting them to freeways in Maryland, where they have also been removed from all planning maps.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 01, 2016, 01:26:20 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 01, 2016, 11:35:51 AM
Quote from: ARMOURERERICIf Trump wins maybe he can undo the executive order against DC freeways.

That wasn't just an executive order, but also part legal settlement and part DC's authority under Home Rule.  Nevermind that you'd still have to pay for those freeways...which these days would make construction of the Metrorail look cheap in comparison...

I assumed he was trying to be funny.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 01, 2016, 01:26:45 PM
QuoteBut I doubt seriously that freeway-class roads, even in D.C., would be as catastrophically expensive as Metrorail has been so far. 

Do the math.  For starters, any such freeway would require a far wider right-of-way than a Metrorail line.  Or would require wider tunnels.  Then there's the ROW costs for that wider ROW.  Nevermind the ancillary impacts, like the need for more parking downtown.  Where are you going to get the space for that, and at what cost?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 01, 2016, 11:57:01 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 01, 2016, 01:26:45 PM
QuoteBut I doubt seriously that freeway-class roads, even in D.C., would be as catastrophically expensive as Metrorail has been so far. 

Do the math.

I did.

Maryland's Md. 200 (ICC), built at about the same time in the same labor market as Dulles Rail, came in at about $2.4 billion (the final bill was a little less than that) for about 17.65 miles of new freeway-class toll road and supporting infrastructure (including interchanges, widening of I-95 and two maintenance centers). That works out to about $136.1 million per centerline mile.

Dulles Rail is about $5.7 billion (as of right now) for about 23 miles of new rail line, or about $247.1 million per mile.  Much of the right-of-way for Dulles Rail was "free."

Quote from: froggie on October 01, 2016, 01:26:45 PM
For starters, any such freeway would require a far wider right-of-way than a Metrorail line.  Or would require wider tunnels.  Then there's the ROW costs for that wider ROW.  Nevermind the ancillary impacts, like the need for more parking downtown.  Where are you going to get the space for that, and at what cost?

Tunnels should not require much on the surface, as long as they are not cut-and-cover (I-395 under Third Street, N.W. was cut-and-cover, as was much of the Metrorail system in downtown D.C.).

This would not be a parking project.  And since the District of Columbia collects a large amount of parking space tax on private parking, and generally does not fund parting space construction, it's really not relevant to this discussion.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 02, 2016, 08:22:27 AM
As I recall, much of the right-of-way for the ICC was "free" as well, as it was already set aside.  Even if the land costs were part of the ICC cost, you didn't have the huge demolition and relocation costs that you would have putting another freeway through DC.

And while parking isn't directly related to roadways, it's applicable here as the need for more parking downtown would be a direct result of building additional DC freeways.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 02, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 02, 2016, 08:22:27 AM
And while parking isn't directly related to roadways, it's applicable here as the need for more parking downtown would be a direct result of building additional DC freeways.

I disagree.  With  the notable exception of Congress, parking in the District of Columbia is  generally  not "free," and is generally market price.  So including the cost of any supposed parking for commuters is not relevant, since the price of those spaces will tend to encourage many people to use mass transit if it is  somewhat reliable.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 02, 2016, 11:13:12 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 02, 2016, 10:28:15 AM
.... since the price of those spaces will tend to encourage many people to use mass transit if it is somewhat reliable.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 02, 2016, 02:03:29 PM
This discussion seems more geared towards the fantasyland board....are there really any freeways in the city that are under any serious consideration?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cl94 on October 02, 2016, 02:10:58 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 02, 2016, 02:03:29 PM
This discussion seems more geared towards the fantasyland board....are there really any freeways in the city that are under any serious consideration?

None. Zip. Nada.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 02, 2016, 04:05:56 PM
Only major project i see is extending HOT across 14th street bridge
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 02, 2016, 04:22:02 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 02, 2016, 04:05:56 PM
Only major project i see is extending HOT across 14th street bridge

DC has talked about the idea of HO/T lanes on I-295 and the Southeast—Southwest Freeway, which would dovetail with what you mention, but I certainly wouldn't expect to see them any time soon.

I think the biggest road project currently planned within the District is the Douglass Bridge replacement, possibly to be coupled with what they've called a "DC-style traffic circle" at the north end near the Nationals Park home plate gate.

I don't think anyone suggested any new highways were actually going to be built in DC.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 02, 2016, 06:52:04 PM
Washington Post: How a neighborhood at the heart of the Beach Drive closure fought to keep its stop signs – and won (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/how-a-neighborhood-at-the-heart-of-the-beach-drive-closure-fought-to-keep-its-stop-signs--and-won/2016/10/02/2cb13da2-859d-11e6-ac72-a29979381495_story.html)

QuoteTony Nuland just wanted to walk his dog.

QuoteCradling Miki, his blind, 13-year-old Pekingese, the D.C. resident scanned crowded Cathedral Avenue NW for an opening. But a procession of cars racing down the hill in front of his home created an impasse.

QuoteThe 72-year-old didn't want to risk scampering across two lanes of heavy traffic, so there he stood, helplessly trying to reach a grassy patch less than 50 feet from his front porch.

QuoteSo, asked to calm the traffic 17 years ago, the city obliged.

QuoteBut in advance of the Beach Drive closure in September, the District Department of Transportation covered up the stop signs Nuland and his neighbors fought so hard for – without consulting them. And it was only after a weeks-long fight involving letters, vocal complaints and two tense community meetings that the District partially reversed its decision, in an announcement that elicited loud cheers at a community meeting last week attended by dozens.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 02, 2016, 07:09:57 PM
QuoteSo, asked to calm the traffic 17 years ago, the city obliged.

QuoteBut in advance of the Beach Drive closure in September, the District Department of Transportation covered up the stop signs Nuland and his neighbors fought so hard for – without consulting them. And it was only after a weeks-long fight involving letters, vocal complaints and two tense community meetings that the District partially reversed its decision, in an announcement that elicited loud cheers at a community meeting last week attended by dozens.

What is not mentioned above is this reality - STOP signs should not be about "traffic calming," for that is not why they exist. 

The District of Columbia has hundreds (or maybe thousands) of unwarranted STOP signs on its street system.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 02, 2016, 08:11:58 PM
I've heard that modern roundabouts are pretty good at keeping speeds low while moving traffic at a constant flow.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cl94 on October 02, 2016, 08:20:41 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 02, 2016, 08:11:58 PM
I've heard that modern roundabouts are pretty good at keeping speeds low while moving traffic at a constant flow.

Don't tell that to a certain other user of this site...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on October 03, 2016, 07:15:27 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 02, 2016, 07:09:57 PM

The District of Columbia has hundreds (or maybe thousands) of unwarranted STOP signs on its street system.

I started a thread on that topic on the traffic control board.

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 03, 2016, 06:19:43 PM
WTOP Radio: Breathing any easier? DC area went whole summer without "˜Code Red' air quality alert (http://wtop.com/health/2016/10/breathing-easier-dc-area-went-whole-summer-without-code-red-air-quality-alert/)

QuoteDespite some record-breaking stretches of brutal heat this summer, most people were still breathing pretty easy.

QuoteFor the fourth straight summer, D.C. air quality stayed below "Code Red"  levels, a measure that tracks unhealthy smog levels. That's according to preliminary data (https://www.mwcog.org/newsroom/2016/10/03/air-quality-metro-dc-records-fourth-straight-summer-with-no-code-red-days/) published Monday by the Metropolitan Council of Governments.

QuoteSmog, officially known as ground-level ozone, is a combination of various pollutants – emitted from cars and trucks, coal-fired power plants and other sources – that react in heat and sunlight to form the smoggy haze that smudges up the air in urban areas during the summer. The smog wreaks havoc on people with lung diseases, such as asthma, emphysema and chronic bronchitis as well as children and older people.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 03, 2016, 09:15:05 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 02, 2016, 04:05:56 PM
Only major project i see is extending HOT across 14th street bridge

It is discussed in this (http://www.wemovedc.org/resources/Final/Part%202_Plan_Elements/Vehicle.pdf) Move DC document, but I have not heard a peep from anyone associated with DDOT or any D.C. elected officials about making a deal with Virginia and their private concession holder to extend the HOV/Toll treatment across the Potomac River.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2017, 08:22:04 AM
WTOP Radio: DC issued "˜unparalleled' number of traffic tickets last year (http://wtop.com/sprawl-crawl/2017/03/dc-issued-unparalleled-number-traffic-tickets-last-year/)

QuoteThe number of photo-enforced tickets given to drivers in the District skyrocketed during the last fiscal year to more than 1.1 million, according to new figures released Thursday by AAA Mid-Atlantic.

QuoteThere were 1,101,769 photo-enforced tickets – including speed, red-light and stop-sign camera tickets – handed out in D.C. during the 2016 fiscal year. That marks a massive year-over-year increase of nearly 70 percent.

QuoteThe District's fiscal year runs from Oct. 1 to Sept. 30.

Quote"The bulk of those tickets were speed camera tickets,"  said AAA spokesman John Townsend. "We estimate that the District issued more than one million speed camera tickets, the highest total on a yearly basis in the District's history."

QuoteThe spike in photo-enforced citations helped push the number of overall tickets in the nation's capital to an all-time high.

Quote"The District issued an unparalleled number of tickets last year,"  Townsend said.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 09, 2017, 08:56:33 AM
Nowhere in the article did Townsend make any comment about poor skills or illegal acts on the part of drivers who received tickets.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2017, 12:07:12 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on March 09, 2017, 08:56:33 AM
Nowhere in the article did Townsend make any comment about poor skills or illegal acts on the part of drivers who received tickets.

Nor did he mention that there are no speed cameras on the Southwest Freeway, 14th Street Bridge or T. Roosevelt Bridge.  There used to be a few on Southwest Freeway part of I-395, but they  were removed for reasons not clear to me.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 09, 2017, 12:17:53 PM
I don't understand the guy sometimes. He could have used it as an opportunity to pitch safer driving, on the grounds that it is both safer and cheaper than breaking the rules of the road, but he instead drops these statistics as if the citations were handed down on the personal orders of the mayor.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on March 09, 2017, 01:39:40 PM
Well, it doesn't help that DC installed the cameras to raise revenue from people who commute in from MD and VA.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 09, 2017, 02:07:29 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2017, 01:39:40 PM
Well, it doesn't help that DC installed the cameras to raise revenue from people who commute in from MD and VA.

Funny, I never gotten a ticket from a camera driving into the city. What am I doing wrong?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2017, 02:37:54 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on March 09, 2017, 02:07:29 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2017, 01:39:40 PM
Well, it doesn't help that DC installed the cameras to raise revenue from people who commute in from MD and VA.

Funny, I never gotten a ticket from a camera driving into the city. What am I doing wrong?

Not entering from Maryland, for starters, since there are no speed cameras in D.C. along the corridors leading to or from the D.C./Virginia bridges.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on March 09, 2017, 05:07:06 PM
I've driven plenty into D.C. from Maryland, and never got a speed camera ticket, either.

It's a double-edged sword.  Yes, an argument could be made that D.C. installed the cameras to raise revenue from drivers.  But on the flip side, speeding is a very large and notable problem in D.C, so camera installation is a way to entice drivers to slow down and go the speed limit given that MPD can't be everywhere at once (nor is there room for them to pull people over on several roads).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2017, 10:17:10 PM
Quote from: froggie on March 09, 2017, 05:07:06 PM
I've driven plenty into D.C. from Maryland, and never got a speed camera ticket, either.

It's a double-edged sword.  Yes, an argument could be made that D.C. installed the cameras to raise revenue from drivers.  But on the flip side, speeding is a very large and notable problem in D.C, so camera installation is a way to entice drivers to slow down and go the speed limit given that MPD can't be everywhere at once (nor is there room for them to pull people over on several roads).

Allow me to be cynical for a moment.  There are no speed cameras on the Southwest Freeway (or the 14th Street Bridge or the other DDOT-maintained bridges over the Potomac) because Northern Virginia is where most members of Congress and their staff people live, and most of them do not use Metro to get to and from Capitol Hill.  There were several on the Southwest Freeway in the past (including one each way near Maine Avenue, S.W.), but all have been removed, and I do not believe it was for a lack of speeders. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 09, 2017, 11:02:01 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2017, 10:17:10 PM
Quote from: froggie on March 09, 2017, 05:07:06 PM
I've driven plenty into D.C. from Maryland, and never got a speed camera ticket, either.

It's a double-edged sword.  Yes, an argument could be made that D.C. installed the cameras to raise revenue from drivers.  But on the flip side, speeding is a very large and notable problem in D.C, so camera installation is a way to entice drivers to slow down and go the speed limit given that MPD can't be everywhere at once (nor is there room for them to pull people over on several roads).

Allow me to be cynical for a moment.  There are no speed cameras on the Southwest Freeway (or the 14th Street Bridge or the other DDOT-maintained bridges over the Potomac) because Northern Virginia is where most members of Congress and their staff people live, and most of them do not use Metro to get to and from Capitol Hill.  There were several on the Southwest Freeway in the past (including one each way near Maine Avenue, S.W.), but all have been removed, and I do not believe it was for a lack of speeders.

You're getting close, but you forgot to include aliens and the Illuminati in your theory.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 10, 2017, 08:31:50 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on March 09, 2017, 11:02:01 PM
You're getting close, but you forgot to include aliens and the Illuminati in your theory.

If you have some other explanation for the lack of automated speed enforcement near the border between the District of Columbia and Virginia, I would be interested in hearing it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 10, 2017, 10:26:52 AM
So you're asking me to prove a negative. Not going to play that game, but I'll offer:

QuoteSpeed camera enforcement zones are selected by the MPD based on recents incidents of speeding-related fatalities and crashes, proximity to school zones and other places where children or other vulnerable populations may be present, and known sites of chronic speeding

https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/speed-camera-locations

More local/neighborhood roads between Maryland and downtown than VA and downtown, hence more opportunities to meet those criteria. But subscribe to your conspiracy theory if it makes you feel better.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on March 10, 2017, 11:24:51 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on March 10, 2017, 10:26:52 AM
So you're asking me to prove a negative. Not going to play that game, but I'll offer:

QuoteSpeed camera enforcement zones are selected by the MPD based on recents incidents of speeding-related fatalities and crashes, proximity to school zones and other places where children or other vulnerable populations may be present, and known sites of chronic speeding

https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/speed-camera-locations

More local/neighborhood roads between Maryland and downtown than VA and downtown, hence more opportunities to meet those criteria. But subscribe to your conspiracy theory if it makes you feel better.
Those bridges ARE known sites of chronic speeding. Even I know this. So you go ahead and wrap yourself in the warmth of a sound political system with honest representation.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 10, 2017, 11:42:55 AM
Again, I'm not going to waste time trying to prove a negative. But to make it out as is there's no critera is rubbish.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 10, 2017, 12:38:59 PM
Heh. I tried going the speed limit on I-395 in DC near Maine Avenue back when they did put up a camera. Very bad idea. Very scary experience! I'd guess most people were going at least 15 mph more than I was.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on March 10, 2017, 12:44:48 PM
Had the same experience going across WB from I-695 to I-395 once.  Signs said there were cameras and I tried to slow down.  Traffic ran over me to the point where I couldn't easily maneuver to where I wanted to go, so I sped up.  Never got a ticket.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 10, 2017, 01:24:24 PM
There used to be a camera located roughly where Maine Avenue splits off the westbound side. I know I blew past it once at at least 10 mph over the limit–I didn't know it was there until it was too late. But I never got a ticket.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 10, 2017, 02:42:15 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 10, 2017, 12:38:59 PM
Heh. I tried going the speed limit on I-395 in DC near Maine Avenue back when they did put up a camera. Very bad idea. Very scary experience! I'd guess most people were going at least 15 mph more than I was.

In a previous work position, I had reason to have to drive the southbound direction of I-395 (from D.C. toward Virginia) in the 3 AM and 4 AM hour somewhat frequently.  Going 65 MPH there was hazardous because of the danger of getting rear-ended.  I would estimate the 85th percentile speed there was north of 70 MPH. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 10, 2017, 02:43:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 10, 2017, 01:24:24 PM
There used to be a camera located roughly where Maine Avenue splits off the westbound side. I know I blew past it once at at least 10 mph over the limit–I didn't know it was there until it was too late. But I never got a ticket.

The reference lines are still painted on the pavement, but the camera was removed long ago.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Steve D on March 24, 2017, 10:58:29 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 10, 2017, 02:42:15 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 10, 2017, 12:38:59 PM
Heh. I tried going the speed limit on I-395 in DC near Maine Avenue back when they did put up a camera. Very bad idea. Very scary experience! I'd guess most people were going at least 15 mph more than I was.

In a previous work position, I had reason to have to drive the southbound direction of I-395 (from D.C. toward Virginia) in the 3 AM and 4 AM hour somewhat frequently.  Going 65 MPH there was hazardous because of the danger of getting rear-ended.  I would estimate the 85th percentile speed there was north of 70 MPH.

I've been driving over 30 years and the 9th Street ramp that enters from the left side to 395 north may be the only place I'm afraid to drive in the U.S.  There is no merge area, and you have about 3 seconds to decide to floor it with the 70 MPH traffic or come to a complete stop.  I noticed that on the latest Google Maps Street View there is an accident and ambulance in that exact spot!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 24, 2017, 01:04:49 PM
I use that ramp frequently and I agree with you, although I almost always use it at night so in theory it's easier to see if the lane is clear ("in theory" because a disproportionate number of residents of Southeast DC have taken to driving at night without headlights).

Last year WTOP took a poll about the worst merge in the area. I submitted that one and the reporter contacted me for an audio clip about it, which he then played on the air.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 24, 2017, 06:03:59 PM
Quote from: Steve D on March 24, 2017, 10:58:29 AM
I've been driving over 30 years and the 9th Street ramp that enters from the left side to 395 north may be the only place I'm afraid to drive in the U.S.  There is no merge area, and you have about 3 seconds to decide to floor it with the 70 MPH traffic or come to a complete stop.  I noticed that on the latest Google Maps Street View there is an accident and ambulance in that exact spot!

Yes, that is an awful entrance ramp.  On the left side, no acceleration lane at all, and lots of lane changing traffic ahead as I-395 northbound exits off itself on the right and into the Third Street Tunnel.

There's another one similar to that on where traffic from eastbound Benning Road, N.E. enters the northbound side of D.C. 295.  It is not a drop ramp like the one from 9th Street, S.W. onto I-395 but otherwise, the geometrics are similar and there are plenty of crashes there (maybe not as many as on I-395 at the 9th Street ramp).

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 24, 2017, 01:04:49 PM
I use that ramp frequently and I agree with you, although I almost always use it at night so in theory it's easier to see if the lane is clear ("in theory" because a disproportionate number of residents of Southeast DC have taken to driving at night without headlights).

Last year WTOP took a poll about the worst merge in the area. I submitted that one and the reporter contacted me for an audio clip about it, which he then played on the air.

People driving around with no headlights seems to be in vogue for some reason.  Or driving around with high beam lights on, even in places where it is unsafe and inappropriate.

And on most D.C. limited-access roads, there's also the matter of the "crotch rocket" motorcycles, often ridden by people with an apparent death wish, especially at night when it is warm, and on weekends and holidays.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 11, 2017, 09:11:34 AM
Washington Business Journal: Washington's hot spots for traffic violations - Use the tabs below for a breakdown of the most-ticketed traffic spots in the city in 2016. Click anywhere on the map to launch the zoom in/out function. (http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2017/04/10/these-d-c-speed-red-light-cameras-generate-the.html?ana=RSS%26s%3Darticle_search)

QuoteThe southbound lane of Kenilworth Avenue in D.C. serves mostly as a busy feeder onto Interstate 295 or Benning Road NE. But it also serves to boost the District's bottom line – the speeding camera positioned at its 600 block generated more than $20 million in fines in fiscal 2016.

QuoteThat one camera, only in place for half of that fiscal year, accounts for more than 10 percent of the roughly $190 million in speeding and red light camera fines issued in 2016. It is by far the most prolific of the 145 camera locations in the District, according to records obtained by the Washington Business Journal as part of a Freedom of Information Act request.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: KEVIN_224 on June 21, 2017, 10:20:50 AM
http://ghostsofdc.org/2014/11/28/drawings-proposed-95-d-c/?utm_source=facebook-recycle&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Drawings%20of%20Proposed%20I-95%20Through%20D.C.

It ultimately links back to Scott Kozel. The Ghosts Of DC Facebook page linked this recently: Had I-95 been built the whole way through the District...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 21, 2017, 07:21:00 AM
WTOP's Dave Dildine has a story and photo gallery called "A look at the District's screwy road signs." (Link below the quote.) Taking his report at face value makes it sound like those of you who have an interest in seeing some of our old favorites, such as the (in)famous boarded-up signs over I-66 near the Kennedy Center, should make the trip sooner rather than later:

QuoteThe District Department of Transportation plans to improve the signage along some of the downtown freeways in the coming months, but until then, drivers will be doing a double-take.

:-(

http://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/08/a-look-at-the-districts-screwy-signs/slide/1/

(Take note of his reference to button copy in one of the captions, too. How often do you see that term in media reports?)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on August 21, 2017, 08:55:41 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2017, 07:21:00 AM
WTOP's Dave Dildine has a story and photo gallery called "A look at the District's screwy road signs." (Link below the quote.) Taking his report at face value makes it sound like those of you who have an interest in seeing some of our old favorites, such as the (in)famous boarded-up signs over I-66 near the Kennedy Center, should make the trip sooner rather than later:

QuoteThe District Department of Transportation plans to improve the signage along some of the downtown freeways in the coming months, but until then, drivers will be doing a double-take.

:-(

http://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/08/a-look-at-the-districts-screwy-signs/slide/1/

(Take note of his reference to button copy in one of the captions, too. How often do you see that term in media reports?)

A guy can get nostalgic looking at that stuff.

Any dashcam videos on the horizon, btw? Me and soon-to-be-Mrs AlexandriaVA have enjoyed them. I know you're taking Metro more frequently now.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 21, 2017, 09:15:01 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on August 21, 2017, 08:55:41 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2017, 07:21:00 AM
WTOP's Dave Dildine has a story and photo gallery called "A look at the District's screwy road signs." (Link below the quote.) Taking his report at face value makes it sound like those of you who have an interest in seeing some of our old favorites, such as the (in)famous boarded-up signs over I-66 near the Kennedy Center, should make the trip sooner rather than later:

QuoteThe District Department of Transportation plans to improve the signage along some of the downtown freeways in the coming months, but until then, drivers will be doing a double-take.

:-(

http://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/08/a-look-at-the-districts-screwy-signs/slide/1/

(Take note of his reference to button copy in one of the captions, too. How often do you see that term in media reports?)

A guy can get nostalgic looking at that stuff.

Any dashcam videos on the horizon, btw? Me and soon-to-be-Mrs AlexandriaVA have enjoyed them. I know you're taking Metro more frequently now.

My sound card got fried and I haven't had time to replace it. Hence one major reason for the delay! I need to hear the audio to edit.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mergingtraffic on August 21, 2017, 05:16:40 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2017, 07:21:00 AM
WTOP's Dave Dildine has a story and photo gallery called "A look at the District's screwy road signs." (Link below the quote.) Taking his report at face value makes it sound like those of you who have an interest in seeing some of our old favorites, such as the (in)famous boarded-up signs over I-66 near the Kennedy Center, should make the trip sooner rather than later:


I was curious about that too.  He pointed that out under the "TO I-295" signs he says "these signs" will be updated but didn't say "these signs" for the I-66 bridge or the Capitol Left Exit sign. 

I got this one the last time I was in the area:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4318/35218835733_85309322a8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VEaJRK)


Is the DDOT good at posting signing contracts online?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 21, 2017, 09:51:47 PM
Dave Dildine responded to my anguished query about the I-66 assembly: "Right there with you. It deserves to be on the National Register of Historic Places at this point."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Henry on August 23, 2017, 09:45:22 AM
I just had a thought on I-95 through the District and how it would've affected the mileage in MD and VA. I-395 from the Springfield Interchange to the Potomac is nine miles, which is only a mile longer than the Beltway routing between the same two places, but what would I-95's mileage have been in MD if it had been completed from the DC line to the College Park Interchange?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Brandon on August 23, 2017, 11:34:29 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on March 09, 2017, 11:02:01 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2017, 10:17:10 PM
Quote from: froggie on March 09, 2017, 05:07:06 PM
I've driven plenty into D.C. from Maryland, and never got a speed camera ticket, either.

It's a double-edged sword.  Yes, an argument could be made that D.C. installed the cameras to raise revenue from drivers.  But on the flip side, speeding is a very large and notable problem in D.C, so camera installation is a way to entice drivers to slow down and go the speed limit given that MPD can't be everywhere at once (nor is there room for them to pull people over on several roads).

Allow me to be cynical for a moment.  There are no speed cameras on the Southwest Freeway (or the 14th Street Bridge or the other DDOT-maintained bridges over the Potomac) because Northern Virginia is where most members of Congress and their staff people live, and most of them do not use Metro to get to and from Capitol Hill.  There were several on the Southwest Freeway in the past (including one each way near Maine Avenue, S.W.), but all have been removed, and I do not believe it was for a lack of speeders.

You're getting close, but you forgot to include aliens and the Illuminati in your theory.

Dude, politics plays into their installation and removal all the time.  All.  The.  Time.  We have a village (a village of 73,000 mind you) in the southwest Chicago suburbs that installed red light cameras at various intersections in town.  All was fine until one day, the mayor of said village got a ticket from one of them.  Then, mysteriously, every camera was shut off the very next day and then removed, with the mayor claiming that the cameras had been successful and had done their job.  What a hunk of bullshit.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on August 23, 2017, 09:19:57 PM
During rush hours, Canal Road is one way favoring the prevailing flow (except between AZ Ave. and Chain Bridge Road).  Do many motorists get confused with this restriction, especially since Canal Road looks so narrow? 

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on August 23, 2017, 09:30:48 PM
Quote from: ixnay on August 23, 2017, 09:19:57 PM
During rush hours, Canal Road is one way favoring the prevailing flow (except between AZ Ave. and Chain Bridge Road).  Do many motorists get confused with this restriction, especially since Canal Road looks so narrow? 

ixnay
As a visitor who has been there during rush hour, no one seemed confused, but very few people at that time would be non-native.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 23, 2017, 10:29:56 PM
The real danger is on the federal holidays that aren't widely observed by the private sector, such as Columbus Day and Veterans' Day, as well as DC's generally-unknown "Emancipation Day." Canal Road doesn't go to one-way operation those days, but drivers assume it does. Very dangerous when someone is legally going "against" the "prevailing" flow of traffic.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 23, 2017, 11:38:41 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2017, 10:29:56 PM
The real danger is on the federal holidays that aren't widely observed by the private sector, such as Columbus Day and Veterans' Day, as well as DC's generally-unknown "Emancipation Day." Canal Road doesn't go to one-way operation those days, but drivers assume it does. Very dangerous when someone is legally going "against" the "prevailing" flow of traffic.

Wonder why DDOT and predecessor agencies never bothered to put up more-sophisticated (electronic) signage warning drivers not to enter streets running  one-way?

They had  them on other reversible streets (the last one to go away was AM-only Constitution Avenue, N.E.), but  they had them on 13th Street, N.W. (went away in the late 1970's) and some other  streets.  They were all-red neon signs that read ONE WAY and had a flashing  arrow in the  direction the street was running (example here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dckaleidoscope/3796261091)).  IIRC, there were also red neon text DO NOT ENTER signs where appropriate.

But these were never deployed along Canal Road, N.W., nor along Rock Creek Parkway, N.W. (obviously National Park Service-maintained). Nor along 17th Street, N.W. and the southernmost block of Connecticut Avenue, N.W. (I believe these are the only remaining reversible streets in D.C.).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on August 24, 2017, 04:34:51 AM
Quoteobviously National Park Service-maintained)

Between this, the scenic qualities of the streets in question, and the Commission of Fine Arts, you'll probably find your answer...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 24, 2017, 07:26:49 AM
He does raise a valid point as to 17 Street and the piece of Connecticut between H and I Streets. The only markings they have are some yellow-on-black one-way signs that include the one-way hours (signs that are easy to miss when there are lots of buses around, which is usually the case at Farragut Square) and occasional "Do Not Enter" signs with the hours posted below. There's also a lit-up "No Left Turn" sign on eastbound K, although those are common in the District where there are part-time turn restrictions.

17th is one where there were LOTS of people on autopilot on the left side of the road on Emancipation Day earlier this year when I crossed the street en route to work. It made me think for holidays the District ought to roll out portable message signs saying something like "Use Caution/Two-Way Traffic All Day Today," although people would still ignore them. I didn't see anyone going northbound that day, which is probably a good thing–the southbound drivers were going pretty fast and I'm certain there would have been an accident.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 25, 2017, 08:41:58 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 24, 2017, 04:34:51 AM
Quoteobviously National Park Service-maintained)

Between this, the scenic qualities of the streets in question, and the Commission of Fine Arts, you'll probably find your answer...

More likely federal law.  The Rock Creek and Potomac Parkway has been  reversible dating back to the 1940's (maybe before that).

EDIT: According to this (http://ghostsofdc.org/2013/01/29/rock-creek-parkway-becomes-one-way-traffic-zone/), reversible peak-flow traffic operations (southbound in AM and northbound in PM) began in 1938.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on August 25, 2017, 08:51:43 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 25, 2017, 08:41:58 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 24, 2017, 04:34:51 AM
Quoteobviously National Park Service-maintained)

Between this, the scenic qualities of the streets in question, and the Commission of Fine Arts, you'll probably find your answer...

More likely federal law.  The Rock Creek and Potomac Parkway has been  reversible dating back to the 1940's (maybe before that).

I've seen photos from maybe the late '40s of afternoon Virginia bound traffic backing up getting to the 14th St. Bridge which IIRC was a single span at the time.

How did DC get so car crazy so early?

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on August 25, 2017, 10:04:58 PM
Canal Road is owned by and maintained by DC. The C&O Canal is NPS. I think DC owns the stone wall that keeps the road from becoming one with the canal.

I commuted home frequently along Canal Road from mid-80's to mid-90's; it indeed never had the overhead X's and arrows, but in addition to neon Do Not Enter signs at the intersection with Foxhall Rd, it did have electric signs along the right shoulder that (when not obstructed by branches) would let you know how many lanes you should be using (either 1 or 2; there was no 0) with red neon tubes. The short stretch between Arizona Ave and Chain Bridge is 3 lanes (that would change at different points depending on morning/evening or regular), and that stretch had about as many "# of lanes signs" as the main stretch. There were also several signs facing each direction at the Arizona Ave intersection (more red neon). Long before those signs were removed, the numbers stopped lighting up properly. It was also said that the road's location in a valley wouldn't let the radio signal get through to change all the signs reliably.

Only once did I come around a bend in the left lane and find a car facing me. They'd already stopped and were pulled pretty far to the side. At that stretch, I can testify that the road is wide enough for 3 vehicles...

On Connecticut Ave one evening, a friend of mine was driving in the "rushhour left lane" and hit a vehicle that was turning left from the "normal left lane". Fortunately hit the front part of the driver's door at an angle, and nobody was seriously injured.

NPS owned reversible roads are generally controlled by motorcycle police and aesthetically-pleasing white sawhorses, which when not used to block traffic are of course left at the side of the road to add to the scenic quality of the area.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 26, 2017, 09:40:24 AM
QuoteNPS owned reversible roads are generally controlled by motorcycle police and aesthetically-pleasing white sawhorses, which when not used to block traffic are of course left at the side of the road to add to the scenic quality of the area.

On the other side of Memorial Bridge at the traffic circle, they augment the sawhorses with orange traffic cones. The primary purpose of these barriers is to send all traffic coming up from I-395 and the Pentagon over the bridge so as to avoid locking up the circle and its approach (note the circle has the yields set up backwards so that traffic on the circle must yield to entering traffic). This spring and summer, the tour bus drivers during the morning rush hour have been either removing the cones or just flat-out driving right over them in order to make one of the prohibited maneuvers to get to the cemetery. Damn dangerous when you're coming around the circle and you're about to go onto the bridge and suddenly a bus abruptly drives across the cones directly in front of you to block your exit from the circle. The NPS police know about it but seem powerless to do anything to stop it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 26, 2017, 06:27:44 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 26, 2017, 09:40:24 AM
QuoteNPS owned reversible roads are generally controlled by motorcycle police and aesthetically-pleasing white sawhorses, which when not used to block traffic are of course left at the side of the road to add to the scenic quality of the area.

On the other side of Memorial Bridge at the traffic circle, they augment the sawhorses with orange traffic cones. The primary purpose of these barriers is to send all traffic coming up from I-395 and the Pentagon over the bridge so as to avoid locking up the circle and its approach (note the circle has the yields set up backwards so that traffic on the circle must yield to entering traffic). This spring and summer, the tour bus drivers during the morning rush hour have been either removing the cones or just flat-out driving right over them in order to make one of the prohibited maneuvers to get to the cemetery. Damn dangerous when you're coming around the circle and you're about to go onto the bridge and suddenly a bus abruptly drives across the cones directly in front of you to block your exit from the circle. The NPS police know about it but seem powerless to do anything to stop it.

I hate that circle (formally Arlington Memorial Circle, S.W. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/38%C2%B053'08.6%22N+77%C2%B003'35.6%22W/@38.885716,-77.0620857,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d38.885716!4d-77.059897)) with a passion.  I have been through it in peak commute times and at off-peak times.  It is a crash-prone traffic engineering abomination. 

There was a contract let (I think by FHWA Eastern Federal Lands (https://flh.fhwa.dot.gov/) (Eastern Federal Lands used to have its own Web site that seems to have gone away)) to re-engineer the circle into a better-performing roundabout or something else (and an open house (http://www.waba.org/blog/2015/03/public-open-house-for-arlington-memorial-circle-redesign-on-march-3rd/) was held in 2015) but seems to have been forgotten for reasons not clear to me (though the NPS does have a Web site (https://parkplanning.nps.gov/projectHome.cfm?projectId=51448) up for the project).  In my  fantasy world, the heavy repair work needed on the Arlington Memorial Bridge itself and remediating and upgrading the circle would be one big construction project.

Pedantic note: the federal police that patrol most National Park Service property in D.C. and nearby areas of Maryland and Virginia is formally known as the United States Park Police (https://www.nps.gov/subjects/uspp/index.htm) or U.S. Park Police for short, and they get touchy if called by some other name, including especially National Park Police and other variants.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on August 26, 2017, 07:21:54 PM
Commuters and locals handle the circle fine, not really a problem. Tourists shouldn't be driving it anyway. Would be more money wasted for a non-problem (just go slow if you have to get over real quick at the end).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 27, 2017, 12:39:16 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on August 26, 2017, 07:21:54 PM
Commuters and locals handle the circle fine, not really a problem. Tourists shouldn't be driving it anyway. Would be more money wasted for a non-problem (just go slow if you have to get over real quick at the end).

I strongly disagree.  Roads are for all, even tourists, even bicyclists, even pedestrians. And though I have not gone through  there as much as others that post here, I have seen crashes there (usually low-speed) involving what appeared to be commuters.

Beyond that, there is a lot of pedestrian and bike traffic there, and the current circle is quite pedestrian-hostile. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 27, 2017, 12:43:45 AM
Washington Post: Big trucks whizzing through D.C. neighborhoods signal city's fortune but residents' nightmare (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/big-trucks-whizzing-through-dc-neighborhoods-signal-citys-fortune-but-residents-nightmare/2017/08/26/8c7d5b00-8293-11e7-902a-2a9f2d808496_story.html)

QuoteAs development has boomed in the District, so have commercial and construction traffic, much to the consternation of residents and other road users who complain the trucks and other heavy vehicles bring noise, fail to follow traffic rules and clog already narrow streets, creating safety concerns.

Quote"You wake up and all you hear is truck noise. Truck noise!"  Bill Yelverton, a resident of Brookland in Northeast Washington, told members of the D.C. Council at a community roundtable last month. "It starts at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning."

QuoteAfter 23 years living near the intersection of 13th and Franklin streets NE, the past two years have been unbearable, he said. So much has the presence of commercial trucks troubled neighbors that they have put up #NOTRUCKSBrookland signs and overwhelmed the neighborhood email discussion group with complaints.

Quote"We can't get peace from the trucks,"  Yelverton said. "Something should be done."

QuoteD.C. officials say city regulations, including weight restrictions and designated truck routes, aim to strike a balance in which residents, road users and industry can coexist. But banning trucks altogether, even from streets where the uses are mostly residential, isn't an effective, feasible or enforceable alternative. Trucks are essential to the city's economy: They ferry an estimated $20 billion worth of goods into the city each year – ranging from construction materials to the food served in city restaurants.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on August 27, 2017, 03:19:59 PM
Just drove the circle today. No problems if you know where you're going and are willing to stick your nose out if/when changing lanes.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 27, 2017, 05:57:03 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on August 27, 2017, 03:19:59 PM
Just drove the circle today. No problems if you know where you're going and are willing to stick your nose out if/when changing lanes.

Never had a crash there either.  But that's not the point.  This is (what states used to call) a "high accident location," and NPS and FHWA EFL need to change it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on August 28, 2017, 12:56:37 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 26, 2017, 09:40:24 AM
QuoteNPS owned reversible roads are generally controlled by motorcycle police and aesthetically-pleasing white sawhorses, which when not used to block traffic are of course left at the side of the road to add to the scenic quality of the area.

On the other side of Memorial Bridge at the traffic circle, they augment the sawhorses with orange traffic cones. The primary purpose of these barriers is to send all traffic coming up from I-395 and the Pentagon over the bridge so as to avoid locking up the circle and its approach (note the circle has the yields set up backwards so that traffic on the circle must yield to entering traffic). This spring and summer, the tour bus drivers during the morning rush hour have been either removing the cones or just flat-out driving right over them in order to make one of the prohibited maneuvers to get to the cemetery. Damn dangerous when you're coming around the circle and you're about to go onto the bridge and suddenly a bus abruptly drives across the cones directly in front of you to block your exit from the circle. The NPS police know about it but seem powerless to do anything to stop it.

Most of the circle is merely part of the a ceremonial entrance to Arlington Cemetery and sees very little traffic. Before being restriped, I believe it technically had the 3 lanes in the circle yielding to 2 lanes coming from Washington Blvd (VA-27).

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 26, 2017, 06:27:44 PMThere was a contract let (I think by FHWA Eastern Federal Lands (https://flh.fhwa.dot.gov/) (Eastern Federal Lands used to have its own Web site that seems to have gone away)) to re-engineer the circle into a better-performing roundabout or something else (and an open house (http://www.waba.org/blog/2015/03/public-open-house-for-arlington-memorial-circle-redesign-on-march-3rd/) was held in 2015) but seems to have been forgotten for reasons not clear to me (though the NPS does have a Web site (https://parkplanning.nps.gov/projectHome.cfm?projectId=51448) up for the project).  In my  fantasy world, the heavy repair work needed on the Arlington Memorial Bridge itself and remediating and upgrading the circle would be one big construction project.

That last link leads to a fascinating series of what can seemingly be called "back of the napkin sketches done at Happy Hour" of different ideas for redoing the circle and associated ramps (including the GWMP, VA-27 and those leading to/from US-50. Thanks for digging that one up! (Note that this info could almost be posted in the recently-revived thread of Official Diagrams of Unbuilt Interchanges (http://"https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=18958").)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 28, 2017, 01:08:58 PM
QuoteMost of the circle is merely part of the a ceremonial entrance to Arlington Cemetery and sees very little traffic. Before being restriped, I believe it technically had the 3 lanes in the circle yielding to 2 lanes coming from Washington Blvd (VA-27).

During the morning rush hour it gets heavier use than you might think due to traffic coming from northbound Route 110 and the southbound GW Parkway, both of which have an exit ramp that connects to Memorial Drive across from the subway station entrance and then require you to use the circle to access the bridge (indeed this is why we come around the circle–we come up Route 1 and Route 110).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 29, 2017, 02:44:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2017, 01:08:58 PM
QuoteMost of the circle is merely part of the a ceremonial entrance to Arlington Cemetery and sees very little traffic. Before being restriped, I believe it technically had the 3 lanes in the circle yielding to 2 lanes coming from Washington Blvd (VA-27).

During the morning rush hour it gets heavier use than you might think due to traffic coming from northbound Route 110 and the southbound GW Parkway, both of which have an exit ramp that connects to Memorial Drive across from the subway station entrance and then require you to use the circle to access the bridge (indeed this is why we come around the circle–we come up Route 1 and Route 110).

Given the choice, I would much  rather use  VA-110 (northbound) or GWMP (southbound) to get to the  circle, given that the alternatives are northbound GWMP or eastbound VA-27 (Washington Boulevard), both of which are terrible.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 01, 2017, 01:45:21 PM
For us, 110 is simply the easiest route (annoying stop sign at the top of the ramp notwithstanding) because we come up Route 1 through Old Town to take advantage of the HOV-2 lane and using 110 is the "least bad" way to the bridge. (Boundary Channel Drive to Route 27 would be better, but it's difficult to reach that road at rush hour coming from the south.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 07, 2017, 09:02:08 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2017, 07:26:49 AM
He does raise a valid point as to 17 Street and the piece of Connecticut between H and I Streets. The only markings they have are some yellow-on-black one-way signs that include the one-way hours (signs that are easy to miss when there are lots of buses around, which is usually the case at Farragut Square) and occasional "Do Not Enter" signs with the hours posted below. There's also a lit-up "No Left Turn" sign on eastbound K, although those are common in the District where there are part-time turn restrictions.

17th is one where there were LOTS of people on autopilot on the left side of the road on Emancipation Day earlier this year when I crossed the street en route to work. It made me think for holidays the District ought to roll out portable message signs saying something like "Use Caution/Two-Way Traffic All Day Today," although people would still ignore them. I didn't see anyone going northbound that day, which is probably a good thing–the southbound drivers were going pretty fast and I'm certain there would have been an accident.

This morning while walking to the office I saw a guy driving the wrong way on 17 Street/Connecticut Avenue (he was on Connecticut between H and I but clearly intended to continue up 17th). Scary situation because the commuters go way too fast (which is not OK either for precisely this reason). Everyone was waving and yelling at him to turn around, but he pretty clearly didn't care, didn't speak English, or both. Never a cop around when you need one.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: BrianP on September 21, 2017, 03:39:02 PM
QuoteOn the Baltimore-Washington Parkway, four new lanes would extend from Baltimore to the District.
So what's the reaction from the DC government going to be to dumping more cars onto DC 295 and US 50? 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mergingtraffic on September 21, 2017, 04:05:55 PM
This sign has been washed I think

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4426/36962975550_03ed9e9591_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YjhURU)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on September 21, 2017, 04:15:09 PM
Quote from: BrianP on September 21, 2017, 03:39:02 PM
QuoteOn the Baltimore-Washington Parkway, four new lanes would extend from Baltimore to the District.
So what's the reaction from the DC government going to be to dumping more cars onto DC 295 and US 50?
:-D :-D :-D :confused: :confused: (and possibly a few others)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on September 21, 2017, 04:16:32 PM
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on September 21, 2017, 04:05:55 PM
This sign has been washed I think

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4426/36962975550_03ed9e9591_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YjhURU)

Not going to be easy to find DC's I-95...whether one follows the arrow or not...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on October 03, 2017, 02:05:01 AM
Quote from: BrianP on September 21, 2017, 03:39:02 PM
QuoteOn the Baltimore-Washington Parkway, four new lanes would extend from Baltimore to the District.
So what's the reaction from the DC government going to be to dumping more cars onto DC 295 and US 50?
I actually think it would be better with the additional lanes.  Northbound, you have 2 lanes from I-295 and 2 lanes from US 50 that quickly merge into 3 lanes and then 2 a short time later at Annapolis Rd.  Imagine if the merger stayed 4NB lanes all the way to the Beltway, let alone Baltimore.  4 lanes in each direction is not extra, it is actually what is needed for this highway.

Even SB, 2 lanes expand to 3 lanes at Annapolis Rd and then split at the interchange with the left lane heading to 295, the right lane to 50 and the middle lane splitting between the two.  At this point, there are 2 lanes heading to 295 and 2 lanes heading to 50 from the Parkway.  So expanding the parkway to 4 lanes heading southbound could fir very easily into this split without overloading the interchange.

The downside for DC though is that this will make it plainly obvious that the 695 connector just isn't doing the job of providing a good connector from 395 to Baltimore because of the 2 lane NB section between the 11th street bridge and East Capitol.  So people will still be using Capitol Hill streets and NY Ave to reach the parkway as it will be quicker despite the traffic signals.

I also hope a good transit bus can be establlished along these lanes.  Most of the key employment sites along the B-W corridor such as NASA Goddard, NSA, Ft Meade, and BWI adjoin the parkway and a well constructed BRT system that utilizes the express lanes could do pretty well.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 03, 2017, 07:23:28 AM
Quote from: mrsmanI also hope a good transit bus can be establlished along these lanes.  Most of the key employment sites along the B-W corridor such as NASA Goddard, NSA, Ft Meade, and BWI adjoin the parkway and a well constructed BRT system that utilizes the express lanes could do pretty well.

The problem here is, unless DDOT creates some transit lanes or bus-only shoulders (neither of which are likely IMO), those buses will run into the same congestion along Kenilworth and NY Ave that everyone else hits.

I'd think those "key employment sites" would be better off beefing up shuttle service to their adjacent MARC stations (most of them are near stations on both the Penn and Camden Lines) and supporting MARC improvements which are needed anyway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 03, 2017, 10:43:24 AM
Quote from: mrsman on October 03, 2017, 02:05:01 AM
Quote from: BrianP on September 21, 2017, 03:39:02 PM
QuoteOn the Baltimore-Washington Parkway, four new lanes would extend from Baltimore to the District.
So what's the reaction from the DC government going to be to dumping more cars onto DC 295 and US 50?
I actually think it would be better with the additional lanes.  Northbound, you have 2 lanes from I-295 and 2 lanes from US 50 that quickly merge into 3 lanes and then 2 a short time later at Annapolis Rd.  Imagine if the merger stayed 4NB lanes all the way to the Beltway, let alone Baltimore.  4 lanes in each direction is not extra, it is actually what is needed for this highway.

Even SB, 2 lanes expand to 3 lanes at Annapolis Rd and then split at the interchange with the left lane heading to 295, the right lane to 50 and the middle lane splitting between the two.  At this point, there are 2 lanes heading to 295 and 2 lanes heading to 50 from the Parkway.  So expanding the parkway to 4 lanes heading southbound could fir very easily into this split without overloading the interchange.

The downside for DC though is that this will make it plainly obvious that the 695 connector just isn't doing the job of providing a good connector from 395 to Baltimore because of the 2 lane NB section between the 11th street bridge and East Capitol.  So people will still be using Capitol Hill streets and NY Ave to reach the parkway as it will be quicker despite the traffic signals.

I also hope a good transit bus can be establlished along these lanes.  Most of the key employment sites along the B-W corridor such as NASA Goddard, NSA, Ft Meade, and BWI adjoin the parkway and a well constructed BRT system that utilizes the express lanes could do pretty well.

IMO, the entire Baltimore-Washington Parkway, from I-95 in Baltimore City  to the U.S. 50/MD-201 interchange in the Tuxedo (Cheverly) area of Prince George's County. It should be 6 lanes (3 each way).  There might be some places where it should and could be wider, but 6 lanes should be the minimum. 

I do not think Hogan's ideal of cramming-in 4 added managed lanes will work well on a road that was designed and engineered to be a parkway, not a freeway. Much better to have tolls on all lanes, avoiding gantries over the mainline of the parkway, except at the northern and southern termini (instead putting them  at the entrances and exits, in the  style of Highway 407 ETR in Ontario.  With the correct toll rates, the parkway should be a free-flow road at all times, much like MD-200 is.

Regarding D.C., the major pinch points there are the signalized intersection at U.S. 50 (New York Avenue, N.E.) and Bladensburg Road; and the 4 lane section of DC-295 between Pennsylvania Avenue, S.E. and East Capitol Street. 

For many years, I have heard people from DDOT (and before DDOT, D.C. DPW) say  that the Bladensburg Road intersection should be replaced with an interchange or some other modifications. 

Of course, DDOT has said they are interested in road pricing, and after the I-395 Express Lanes, the I-295/DC-295 corridor is probably the best place to do it.

Having free-flow traffic on  the B-W Parkway and DC-295 makes it an idea corridor for express bus service.  That's a lot cheaper than more trains, and potentially faster as well, especially when compared to the Camden Line.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 03, 2017, 11:06:01 AM
QuoteHaving free-flow traffic on  the B-W Parkway and DC-295 makes it an idea corridor for express bus service.  That's a lot cheaper than more trains, and potentially faster as well, especially when compared to the Camden Line.

Given the desire by many pushing this to widen 295, it may not necessarily be cheaper than "more trains".  You also still have the issue of traffic congestion once you're off 295.  The only way your situation would potentially work and "be cheaper" than MARC upgrades would be if DDOT tolls 295 as-is and doesn't bother with widening.  Figure the political odds of that actually happening.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 04, 2017, 09:24:32 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 03, 2017, 11:06:01 AM
QuoteHaving free-flow traffic on  the B-W Parkway and DC-295 makes it an idea corridor for express bus service.  That's a lot cheaper than more trains, and potentially faster as well, especially when compared to the Camden Line.

Given the desire by many pushing this to widen 295, it may not necessarily be cheaper than "more trains".  You also still have the issue of traffic congestion once you're off 295.  The only way your situation would potentially work and "be cheaper" than MARC upgrades would be if DDOT tolls 295 as-is and doesn't bother with widening.  Figure the political odds of that actually happening.

Several of the employment centers in the  corridor (notably NASA/GSFC, USDA, NSA and other agencies at Fort Meade, BWI (including NSA's Friendship Annex), the Tuxedo industrial area in Cheverly, Arundel Mills, and employment along MD-175 and MD-176 east and west of the parkway) are relatively close to the parkway, so IMO that's not a huge issue - and not an adequate reason  to stop a project like this.

Regarding trains (especially on the Camden Line, which uses a railroad owned by CSX for nearly its entire length), there's also the matter of capacity, and lack thereof, for additional trains.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Henry on October 05, 2017, 10:09:44 AM
While a widened Parkway would indeed be a great benefit to the area, it wouldn't feel like a parkway anymore, and I-95 to the west is already more than adequate in carrying traffic between the two cities. I read that when the Between the Beltways part of I-95 was completed back in 1971, the Parkway was going to be redesignated as I-295, but then it was decided against due to its substandard nature and the super expensive upgrades it would have to go through. Extending MD 295 to meet its DC 295 counterpart wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 05, 2017, 11:03:28 AM
Quote from: Henry on October 05, 2017, 10:09:44 AM
While a widened Parkway would indeed be a great benefit to the area, it wouldn't feel like a parkway anymore, and I-95 to the west is already more than adequate in carrying traffic between the two cities. I read that when the Between the Beltways part of I-95 was completed back in 1971, the Parkway was going to be redesignated as I-295, but then it was decided against due to its substandard nature and the super expensive upgrades it would have to go through. Extending MD 295 to meet its DC 295 counterpart wouldn't be a bad idea either.

That is why I  suggested above that the  Baltimore-Washington Parkway should be no more than six lanes total, and all lanes should be tolled and that the entire parkway should be a variant of MD-200.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on October 19, 2017, 03:47:00 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 05, 2017, 11:03:28 AM
Quote from: Henry on October 05, 2017, 10:09:44 AM
While a widened Parkway would indeed be a great benefit to the area, it wouldn't feel like a parkway anymore, and I-95 to the west is already more than adequate in carrying traffic between the two cities. I read that when the Between the Beltways part of I-95 was completed back in 1971, the Parkway was going to be redesignated as I-295, but then it was decided against due to its substandard nature and the super expensive upgrades it would have to go through. Extending MD 295 to meet its DC 295 counterpart wouldn't be a bad idea either.

That is why I  suggested above that the  Baltimore-Washington Parkway should be no more than six lanes total, and all lanes should be tolled and that the entire parkway should be a variant of MD-200.

It will be interesting to have a toll road parallel and close to I-95 for so many miles.  It will be reminiscent of the Miami area with 2 main N-S roads (I-95 free, FL Tpke toll) or South NJ (I-295 free, turnpike toll).  I think the area needs something like this, but see no way to overcome politics of tolling existing free lanes.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: D-Dey65 on October 19, 2017, 09:01:41 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 05, 2017, 10:09:44 AM
While a widened Parkway would indeed be a great benefit to the area, it wouldn't feel like a parkway anymore, and I-95 to the west is already more than adequate in carrying traffic between the two cities. I read that when the Between the Beltways part of I-95 was completed back in 1971, the Parkway was going to be redesignated as I-295, but then it was decided against due to its substandard nature and the super expensive upgrades it would have to go through. Extending MD 295 to meet its DC 295 counterpart wouldn't be a bad idea either.
It doesn't exactly feel like a parkway now due to the numerous trucks and buses that get away with using it. I still think it's a shame they gave up on running I-95 directly through D.C.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 20, 2017, 08:24:21 AM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on October 19, 2017, 09:01:41 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 05, 2017, 10:09:44 AM
While a widened Parkway would indeed be a great benefit to the area, it wouldn't feel like a parkway anymore, and I-95 to the west is already more than adequate in carrying traffic between the two cities. I read that when the Between the Beltways part of I-95 was completed back in 1971, the Parkway was going to be redesignated as I-295, but then it was decided against due to its substandard nature and the super expensive upgrades it would have to go through. Extending MD 295 to meet its DC 295 counterpart wouldn't be a bad idea either.
It doesn't exactly feel like a parkway now due to the numerous trucks and buses that get away with using it. I still think it's a shame they gave up on running I-95 directly through D.C.

Buses may use the entire Baltimore-Washington Parkway, and have for as long as it has been open to traffic.  Even double-deck buses like those used by CoachUSA's Megabus for most trips fit under the bridges on the parkway (both the federal and state-maintained sections).

Trucks on the federal (NPS-matained) section part of the Parkway (U.S. 50 at Tuxedo to MD-175 at Odenton (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/38.9189576,-76.9371381/39.1654999,-76.7350268/@39.0438307,-77.0016384,11z)) are mostly illegal, and  truck drivers are subject to a federal summons for driving there (but the fine is laughably low), and Park Police will order them to exit the Parkway at the next interchange. 

There are two exceptions:

(1) If the truck has federal government license plates (including Postal Service trucks) or is a military truck; or
(2) If the truck is engaged in maintenance  or repair work on the Parkway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: D-Dey65 on October 20, 2017, 09:16:46 AM
Well, trucks for maintenance or repair work being allowed on parkways is universal, and perfectly understandable. That and tow trucks removing broken down cars, and fire engines and such.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on October 22, 2017, 01:32:38 AM
Is there any standard as to what types of vehicles constitute trucks?  Is it a weight or size limit or just the commercial nature? 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 23, 2017, 11:25:50 AM
Quote from: mrsman on October 22, 2017, 01:32:38 AM
Is there any standard as to what types of vehicles constitute trucks?  Is it a weight or size limit or just the commercial nature? 

There are two limits, both governed by gross vehicle weight.

One is 10,000 pounds.  Trucks over 10,000 pounds but less than 26,000 pounds are sometimes seen on the NPS Parkways, though  I do not think they are supposed to be there.  In general, I think the U.S. Park Police ignore these trucks (for the most part).

Trucks over 26,000 pounds gross require a CDL to drive and are definitely illegal on the NPS Parkways, and the driver of such a vehicle risks getting a federal ticket.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on October 25, 2017, 08:06:05 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2017, 07:21:00 AM
WTOP's Dave Dildine has a story and photo gallery called "A look at the District's screwy road signs." (Link below the quote.) Taking his report at face value makes it sound like those of you who have an interest in seeing some of our old favorites, such as the (in)famous boarded-up signs over I-66 near the Kennedy Center, should make the trip sooner rather than later:

QuoteThe District Department of Transportation plans to improve the signage along some of the downtown freeways in the coming months, but until then, drivers will be doing a double-take.

:-(

http://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/08/a-look-at-the-districts-screwy-signs/slide/1/

(Take note of his reference to button copy in one of the captions, too. How often do you see that term in media reports?)

The boarded-up sign has to be a reassurance sign.  For what route, I don't know.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 25, 2017, 10:29:11 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 25, 2017, 08:06:05 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2017, 07:21:00 AM
WTOP's Dave Dildine has a story and photo gallery called "A look at the District's screwy road signs." (Link below the quote.) Taking his report at face value makes it sound like those of you who have an interest in seeing some of our old favorites, such as the (in)famous boarded-up signs over I-66 near the Kennedy Center, should make the trip sooner rather than later:

QuoteThe District Department of Transportation plans to improve the signage along some of the downtown freeways in the coming months, but until then, drivers will be doing a double-take.

:-(

http://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/08/a-look-at-the-districts-screwy-signs/slide/1/

(Take note of his reference to button copy in one of the captions, too. How often do you see that term in media reports?)

The boarded-up sign has to be a reassurance sign.  For what route, I don't know.

I think most of us assume it's for the unbuilt portion of I-695.

If those signs are indeed replaced, I really hope they let us see what was under there, even if only via a photo.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 26, 2017, 08:51:31 AM
WTOP's Dave Dildine and I were exchanging messages about I-66 in DC and in the course of doing so, I found the photo gallery linked below from the DC DOT containing photos from the 1960s showing said road during its construction and just after it opened. The old ramp to the Kennedy Center can be seen in one of them. I note there were more I-66 shields (with the "state" name) than there are today, and I see the famous "mystery sign" on the southbound sign bridge was already covered up (makes sense, of course, if indeed it is an I-695 sign).

Those of you who like old pictures ought to take a look. You'll see the Kennedy Center and the Watergate complex under construction as well.

http://ddotlibrary.omeka.net/items/show/95




Edited to add: After posting that link, I started nosing around their site and found the following gallery of old signs in general.

http://ddotlibrary.omeka.net/items/show/79
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on October 26, 2017, 09:22:53 AM
Fascinating - I had no idea the Watergate complex predated the Kennedy Center.  Thanks.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on October 26, 2017, 11:18:46 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 26, 2017, 08:51:31 AM
WTOP's Dave Dildine and I were exchanging messages about I-66 in DC and in the course of doing so, I found the photo gallery linked below from the DC DOT containing photos from the 1960s showing said road during its construction and just after it opened. The old ramp to the Kennedy Center can be seen in one of them. I note there were more I-66 shields (with the "state" name) than there are today, and I see the famous "mystery sign" on the southbound sign bridge was already covered up (makes sense, of course, if indeed it is an I-695 sign).

Those of you who like old pictures ought to take a look. You'll see the Kennedy Center and the Watergate complex under construction as well.

http://ddotlibrary.omeka.net/items/show/95




Edited to add: After posting that link, I started nosing around their site and found the following gallery of old signs in general.

http://ddotlibrary.omeka.net/items/show/79
That is really cool stuff! TIL the signs in the I-395 tunnel used to be backlit. That would really help their target value! I can barely notice today's one-liners.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 26, 2017, 12:16:31 PM
Not sure if discussed, but the opening of the Wharf development in Southwest brings a few new roads into the city's inventory. I haven't been down there yet, I intend to before it gets too cold, but some of them are "shared streets" for all modes (car, bike, pedestrian).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 26, 2017, 12:18:17 PM
^ Also eliminated a large chunk of Water St NW, including everything west of 7th.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 26, 2017, 12:19:20 PM
Think you mean Water St SW...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 26, 2017, 02:01:33 PM
I did, sorry...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 28, 2017, 05:28:42 PM
Was battling a head cold but had to get out of the apartment...parked at 7th+G SW in an unrestricted street spot...my guess is the remaining "open" spots like this will be metered or subject to residental permits very soon.

It was a nice day at the Wharf, and it seemed very popular for everyone...young folks, seniors, and families. I'll post some photos from a roads standpoint. Note the integrated of areas for cars, pedestrians, bikes, and even parking spaces.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XSFjHT-7Y6hqgCarF1HhAo3CT2VIh-2d6v0fpR1-yEkbCQXuRO-TS3gSddAUOOsCA5R1X4Oqq6fDIxMo-df6cZAB8XPNxFjoIzmnnLPfoyGQb6gChOCO_2V0oLQRNLxjxYcfFCkeVfe2CxDFUALrfFyrtlRIwCHLcgjoztSw1BfDopvr6-kZg6CC_EZan0NVHUsToe9p9N2xuFEqU1TQX7FmcU1_cIcisYy_JMkLpuOSgwOR4t40Rrjt8eM5GU7BszQhHhWa3arVBcK6EM2sKs8moaVwKP5NQSlB_hQWZxkxdyemWHup6sX_6RGojwgG0iV4EIB5iEgU4Y_I-6xRSX4MjP6d8QuxLvM4L4QH7_NSNUOrUZQymPlhk2Oi83Y8wZQCeeEpALPGIUFFb8uJWXimN0ruFk9h_hG3dpziWycwkRN9eQmVGeW9emTF06NWgt6gEtXabtG881wEbNacaYhYM9d3XZU2Z6JwZUrd1Y4jAuh5wEFzjt1Fr4VsdJG-opZWu2bIRts2cguK_PwzUiz1A-9eJlVNGzroyNNZpwWDEWASNQVsyGR2kiDa5rw12AknwZdbtSoFsMGxxXMSjFTQfwKH8ocTa_4RDcIi6Q=w1134-h637-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/DwEz67NXTPlUH-67_X6VRd4Z_I4Nzck_LFEgzY201KQoFxOdhtznIC3iO5GpjhGF1JuZDLrPjiKMKWxoJsCQaBbBHbq7ACUctLZPMzvlesrmZe64guQqa8ZQh7IOR2a5RrH8u1ejo8Z56QRKj8kKGsalmPzv6V5OjnqqT6bBvgHC6yGE32RMh2XOxs1k-HCe4trWMPFoEQB6Jxyw3eHrpWQ81_QzHaScxebpAADsPgF6pvkFhMa0-o3o6hMBIbFGRZl-Hj_3HoTa3K69bOY3qqa6CjD49XQC9pivxeT-e1mexZhumiVhJYA292T9-hh9zDkWFDtvvY_NDHJJKpN6_mUduuezuP_lu3isSMNDCJhH-hsVbZO1uMTqmRhMIqWbDWjnBYvCm8GhdYsfvgHt78FlZ01MqDARSHtqI18sAxf9bCHsP74x-4xkMtbv74xghiZvHtczNcebLg9aC94xem8mujG3Fky-1ZCyiJsxxJFkDvRMKf5_ETab6dN9k8hctw2to6ca6sTbJTzqlYviPtdvcbtkMcN_LfAG2aeCpuy5iYgs4Xh5oZwd7aTfPrLhtauujZzIY9SiLfbWH-H3-vBR0-2THsttQl9TfU9-XA=w358-h637-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/otS8xwxXFCnHj8oJgx2qOB37QJDbx3iqvdukWs9qKvAYyTV89clAD3sruXZ58RwY5qb-EB1UXbR7nXjK6WSGGLNuiBoAdlArU4zgBnBz8Vhydbx1cQdUf0VwT93cSOXuCdQjrmSxC1lR8gHRLpgnGb66C41xoCuWuZGZ6RrWKGF86LTSbKUuZiGK0AoQSstXxaOz3NWkXzuU5s4cZ2MYr0KQ2oufLbksBR6LY-yXFNlA5_xZ0m6KnnpWPv6-Kl1hbxvc7IlqG2VvqRD8HaSZ9OlQBMXtulGlCceQfEBOgyNApcNlA9VygpFd1lXry-Uk-BFIkrXWNh3yoHrAcoyIdTKUQvFkcLsEP_cvJgSUlERlQOpSEDX9hE7CgmCErPP0fARfv_ZWd9FKkzXMqnMG8TyYZ501bOcH-8NAVIQI-w7pxhgO_RX3ymRK7SZ6ORykGdmuSE2QRCxPhO3ix43E-a7y7upaLJD308fva5OLGdIJ2fWub8ogY3zBIBZ2rQSG1YcKYzHKcQYXtTRykjxDiFSafHxhjG2aFP2_pNO4TSt4UJzaFH84c2TgXgiR9bTiKgp3pAgVdq969umiUKZKlLY1c-cf0UcZ5WE22BlSag=w1134-h637-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/OGs_5eglCSNtL2XJ08Xi8R7D4WnCy-b4C__mM7dNJArPtX3ZINDpOBvphoFVN2PTrMzOoOzZJjYytk6RZylNP0rXDFuliMRlDrmnpwYwiCCv097Yia1SnmXWAWAMxX8zUUYjRQLcV8XrOkDYRIACHwOUfqDbVRuVqeKpxB9AO8knpmrFDpL-r3NX-AZuTz5RaJVfQyVY3jyu8hDGqEnUKELhu0Em9KRXVocyrHOfVT4pi2SqFVDFA8aomh0A-ddnJMeSOlmJgEz2OqfWflogOHXyz8wF0jxB-U_AtJNKaxlJIj-KeSwCI2kFt-e4_fbb9dLbBqHj-4cdjvgqQsTWf6xJJXwTe535TWPtGZ7X50hAAybDd2Ompz4KKPS0IcR3NemOiOoDU5uVl5wGOj6F0Cx6ZuIy_gx1KJtCQ2leKoL4CP56zFkdlU0Pqca9oKardSYY9Cjrh6MvcOo3yixyPLqe5865dTH_lygQcx9U61zHChoH6WqzbmEWlkGYw1Ab4pNvw1L0Z02IOXO7d2DKO_k56wQkIatt-X5J-WKNxJDGnPnxsIe8yBp7-BuJUxrQL5_I0mJh1NAPxEkAM4eSbRgEH7y5pa6vZhhAa4jB0A=w1134-h637-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8i0hO-YeBLHzsbm1-EHi0m-Sa4ki0odf9DimTA5pLxYzQtMDtx7zfqKcQrUJLxe-UMdccVRgpMBD51zlhK9VdeADdvSInzr7ECip-IMLCJdfciFMbwuYRj7gUJLMFM-FPCBZbBtmb3MxWNo0E5bEoEwFTPkEIoQoxv39kaJ2HMQvtxwgRPu3lfi2lH680Uek49JQKuKw_LskhpDh59hyn6PWcVMqMYDnpqie63vFm1pzGSBN0KnUHvq_z-DNrStMiXSrKezxAq6FsXwa-K7XHkwukuPTUECet2eHAUh08xPRrJfxGo5O9RlJjeGd7a8nrQ6mcO5A9uoMcRbSdqKYUVqB_TwGJgWdNLdUOJhPrZoMjQYAW2P8ImmqIkGyqXKEY0IBKJsoyqvtJYvjmoWQQjDU3eHPCO_eOFOffT5H0Prux8B6OXDk1qeorQxPy-Q_xlSyJdEcuPgw9Y2LWURwHSLQ-48-Q6RvPGALavcRRImKcSvuJ6kTodxc8MUcynxC4RETbGrozLWjqGyFUYzq58nkxaE1F9rqaqO2VSTHDFigEEae4lVuId5yj6-GsEeU2qBI8RFbVjTCx7NceDjI5_luJBNdV022cj5lHeiuAg=w1134-h637-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/x-3-EDtTewtyJ80zbUPws5bRD7hGc6HzxZdcv3On9cLF_4vSSYX33OR1pGHktYo4UzE7ObGeZDjxM2sefCQ6Wi4GZ9bRzDWC_pUfPgUTwpjxBzVmiZO89Ylm1oewJK6M39oOK38Jce1Trj329s82r0xTAMnU-Llt3vad3jElKCBKgnvM_X9Q_atg5SzXsKG7jKzjnVEA4UgWriXjG3ssqgUtKU-5iS1VBK8RSo3FsP9xbfLBQITi3tDh9MvygOA9qwXtujQEn7slKvHIDOPKa3Si1x4WJhjPKXrmtfV85HduC0lep09p9wWH98tfSZC5agwHX9NPWCEDeQcfBR0eS4LPiGcAgjq6yclaRWG7E5iEtGE6Yu37UPF28Yti8dS0tAM_DfHuk2_ZOihPUwaXebXDNYlgJxsjOXQqaqiZgdYSigy7EnO4A2ILIc-D1NuknCbvLQTtv3oR3Jxm-xMBeN5ACrMc8G6XWWNcBgKbmEU8caCdR4JRWQGP13BL8SqudL9nv6r-saiH1w_WXsYdyuJr155w0t54kAOPlL32W-UKqdoYbZM5TPv6yS2sGQc16P8wnzf2rmHSWfDkbWnytTRKRHwEnHTRqJddGt7GnQ=w1134-h637-no)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 28, 2017, 06:00:36 PM
Nice pictures. I find that second one very interesting with the semi-European speed limit unisign.

Thanks for posting. I haven't had time to get down there.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on November 17, 2017, 12:14:59 PM
Dave Dildine of WTOP just tweeted a link to the following story about a proposal to close Rock Creek Parkway south of Virginia Avenue (past the Kennedy Center) to motorized vehicles and to divert motorized traffic to the I-66 stub. Surely that would require some road reconfiguration to be practical, given how (1) I-66 access at the Virginia Avenue end is primarily via 27 Street and (2) there is no access to Memorial Bridge from south/westbound I-66 (you have to use Rock Creek Parkway or 23 Street).

https://currentnewspapers.com/ancs-suggest-closing-parkway-to-cars-in-front-of-kennedy-center/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on November 17, 2017, 01:14:08 PM
It got mentioned through the GGW channels a week or two ago that something was afoot with that.  I don't recall if it was discussion about an upcoming meeting or if a meeting had already taken place.

I do know of a couple articles that were written on the subject a few years ago.  I had also come up with my own concept (that I'm pretty sure I posted in the Fictional Highways folder).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on November 17, 2017, 05:14:28 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 17, 2017, 12:14:59 PM
Dave Dildine of WTOP just tweeted a link to the following story about a proposal to close Rock Creek Parkway south of Virginia Avenue (past the Kennedy Center) to motorized vehicles and to divert motorized traffic to the I-66 stub. Surely that would require some road reconfiguration to be practical, given how (1) I-66 access at the Virginia Avenue end is primarily via 27 Street and (2) there is no access to Memorial Bridge from south/westbound I-66 (you have to use Rock Creek Parkway or 23 Street).

https://currentnewspapers.com/ancs-suggest-closing-parkway-to-cars-in-front-of-kennedy-center/

I'm trying to decide if that is more or less dumb than tearing down the Whitehurst Freeway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 17, 2017, 06:06:50 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 17, 2017, 05:14:28 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 17, 2017, 12:14:59 PM
Dave Dildine of WTOP just tweeted a link to the following story about a proposal to close Rock Creek Parkway south of Virginia Avenue (past the Kennedy Center) to motorized vehicles and to divert motorized traffic to the I-66 stub. Surely that would require some road reconfiguration to be practical, given how (1) I-66 access at the Virginia Avenue end is primarily via 27 Street and (2) there is no access to Memorial Bridge from south/westbound I-66 (you have to use Rock Creek Parkway or 23 Street).

https://currentnewspapers.com/ancs-suggest-closing-parkway-to-cars-in-front-of-kennedy-center/

I'm trying to decide if that is more or less dumb than tearing down the Whitehurst Freeway.

This would likely increase traffic congestion along the entire West End of D.C., which can be bad even on weekends. 

This is not normally a way that I drive, but I was through there last Saturday morning on the way to VDOT in Fairfax, and the queue of traffic waiting on the southbound Rock Creek Parkway to make the left onto Virginia Avenue, N.W., then onto I Street, N.W. after crossing 27th Street to reach I-66 was pretty intense. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on November 20, 2017, 12:19:53 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 17, 2017, 06:06:50 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 17, 2017, 05:14:28 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 17, 2017, 12:14:59 PM
Dave Dildine of WTOP just tweeted a link to the following story about a proposal to close Rock Creek Parkway south of Virginia Avenue (past the Kennedy Center) to motorized vehicles and to divert motorized traffic to the I-66 stub. Surely that would require some road reconfiguration to be practical, given how (1) I-66 access at the Virginia Avenue end is primarily via 27 Street and (2) there is no access to Memorial Bridge from south/westbound I-66 (you have to use Rock Creek Parkway or 23 Street).

https://currentnewspapers.com/ancs-suggest-closing-parkway-to-cars-in-front-of-kennedy-center/

I'm trying to decide if that is more or less dumb than tearing down the Whitehurst Freeway.

This would likely increase traffic congestion along the entire West End of D.C., which can be bad even on weekends. 

This is not normally a way that I drive, but I was through there last Saturday morning on the way to VDOT in Fairfax, and the queue of traffic waiting on the southbound Rock Creek Parkway to make the left onto Virginia Avenue, N.W., then onto I Street, N.W. after crossing 27th Street to reach I-66 was pretty intense.

Yes, it's always a giant mess there.  I used to take the stretch of Rock Creek Parkway that's being proposed for closure to get to I-395 south when I lived Adams Morgan or Columbia Heights, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: wdcrft63 on December 01, 2017, 06:37:18 PM
Just ICYMI, there's big news on the Arlington Memorial Bridge:
http://bluevirginia.us/2017/12/a-wee-bit-of-good-news-long-awaited-breakthrough-to-repair-arlington-memorial-bridge
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: HTM Duke on January 23, 2018, 05:00:19 PM
Nothing earth shattering, but dDOT has finally posted NORTH US-29 shields prior to and at the exit to the Whitehurst Frwy from the inbound Key Bridge.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 04, 2018, 07:53:21 AM
Washington Post:  South Capitol Street project promises a new bridge – and new life – for Anacostia (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/south-capitol-street-project-promises-a-new-bridge--and-new-life--for-anacostia/2018/03/03/51aec4b4-1cad-11e8-ae5a-16e60e4605f3_story.html)

QuoteThe Frederick Douglass Memorial Bridge, one of the District's busiest commuter gateways, is past its life span. The bridge over the Anacostia River is decaying. Corrosion has eaten holes through the thick steel beams that were installed nearly 70 years ago, and despite a major overhaul in 2007, it continues to deteriorate.

QuoteA mammoth construction project to replace the bridge kicked off last month, promising a new bridge in 2021. The project also will remake part of South Capitol Street into a scenic boulevard and improve the Suitland Parkway and Interstate 295 interchanges.

QuoteIt's the end of an era for a span that carries 70,000 drivers daily. But the new bridge and redeveloped community will not come without pain.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on March 04, 2018, 12:02:15 PM
A new bridge means new life for Anacostia?  Dang, they really are getting sold a bridge. :D
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on March 04, 2018, 12:06:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 04, 2018, 12:02:15 PM
A new bridge means new life for Anacostia?  Dang, they really are getting sold a bridge. :D

I thought the new 11th Street Bridges across the Anacostia (including a separate bridge for local traffic) were supposed to serve that purpose.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Jmiles32 on March 04, 2018, 12:21:53 PM
Its about time this project finally gets underway. Seems like they've been talking about it forever.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on March 04, 2018, 11:22:49 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 04, 2018, 12:06:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 04, 2018, 12:02:15 PM
A new bridge means new life for Anacostia?  Dang, they really are getting sold a bridge. :D
I thought the new 11th Street Bridges across the Anacostia (including a separate bridge for local traffic) were supposed to serve that purpose.

Different corridor.  The new 11th Street Bridges were not intended to replace the South Capital Street Bridge. 

It is nice to finally see D.C. making some major highway and bridge expansions.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on March 05, 2018, 12:06:55 AM
I see on Google Maps Satellite View that the new 11th Street Bridges on I-695 have shoulders only about 3 feet wide.  I wonder how they got FHWA approval on that feature.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 05, 2018, 12:08:35 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 04, 2018, 12:02:15 PM
A new bridge means new life for Anacostia?  Dang, they really are getting sold a bridge. :D

The presence of the headquarters complex of the  Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has helped Anacostia.  The other large federal facility in that part of town is Joint Base Anacostia, which is literally fenced-off from the entire rest of D.C.  The DHS headquarters also has a fence around it with guards at the entrances, but it is not as isolated.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 05, 2018, 07:41:35 AM
There's  new sports facility going up somewhere in Anacostia as well. I believe the basketball teams will both practice there and the WNBA team will play their home games there. I wonder what relocating from Verizon Center to Anacostia will do to their attendance. I'm sure it won't help.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on March 15, 2018, 11:25:22 AM
Fort Myer Construction Sues the District Again. Issue with bids related to work on ramps at east end of Sousa Bridge. My favorite quote from the article:

"The Contract Appeals Board dismissed Fort Myer's protest on a pair of technical grounds that they claim made the protest both premature and too late, according to the sometimes mind-boggling rules that govern the District's bid protest process."

https://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/news/city-desk/article/20996412/fort-myer-construction-sues-the-district-again
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: machpost on March 16, 2018, 02:35:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 04, 2018, 12:02:15 PM
A new bridge means new life for Anacostia?  Dang, they really are getting sold a bridge. :D

The District of Columbia is growing by around 1,000 new residents per month, and the city's boundaries aren't going to be expanded anytime soon. So it's just a matter of time until neighborhoods east of the Anacostia start growing at a greater pace.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: BrianP on May 01, 2018, 10:02:33 AM
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/05/falling-sign-causes-delays-695-dc/
QuoteA sign coming off of its post above the westbound Southeast Freeway/Interstate 695 in D.C. caused delays Tuesday morning as commuters snapped photos and transportation crews responded to the scene.

They make it sound like a whole sign is falling down.  But it's just one panel of the sign. 

It looks like this sign is the one:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.881361,-77.0078636,3a,60y,292.54h,86.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6sGiaeuYFKSKzl6_CEGY8A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 10:06:59 AM
Dammit, I thought it was the famous sign on I-66 that's covered with plywood.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 01, 2018, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: BrianP on May 01, 2018, 10:02:33 AM
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/05/falling-sign-causes-delays-695-dc/
QuoteA sign coming off of its post above the westbound Southeast Freeway/Interstate 695 in D.C. caused delays Tuesday morning as commuters snapped photos and transportation crews responded to the scene.

They make it sound like a whole sign is falling down.  But it's just one panel of the sign. 

It looks like this sign is the one:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.881361,-77.0078636,3a,60y,292.54h,86.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6sGiaeuYFKSKzl6_CEGY8A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

This caused delays this morning back into Maryland on both the I-295 and DC-295 (MD-201) corridors.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mergingtraffic on August 13, 2018, 05:39:44 PM
Isn't there an upcoming sign project to replace all of those including this gem?

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1819/44020509621_9eb0d2fee8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2a4WBRP)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on August 23, 2018, 01:30:27 PM
https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1032639913773199362

(Hats off to our own Mike Tantillo as well, who was interviewed by Dave for the upcoming story)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 03:07:07 PM
I knew those signs were coming down soon, but I didn't know when. At least we get to see something.

http://twitter.com/dildinewtop/status/1032641138874834944?s=21


http://twitter.com/dildinewtop/status/1032704386127028227?s=21
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Roadsguy on August 23, 2018, 03:40:48 PM
Interesting that I-695 was to be signed north-south rather than east-west. Even ignoring the section east of downtown that was only recently signed, the 66-395 segment is still more east-west than north-south.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on August 23, 2018, 04:00:21 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on August 23, 2018, 03:40:48 PM
Interesting that I-695 was to be signed north-south rather than east-west. Even ignoring the section east of downtown that was only recently signed, the 66-395 segment is still more east-west than north-south.
Youd be traveling cardinal south at that point, maybe it would have been signed east-west after turning to run along Independence.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 04:47:53 PM
BTW, froggie, thanks for retweeting Dildine's tweet–while I follow him, I hadn't looked at Twitter in a few hours and would have missed it until looking here.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 07:38:48 PM
Perusing this thread again while eating dinner (my wife's out of town) and the uncovering (and removal) of the I-695 sign prompts me to suggest that anyone interested in the remaining older signs in the District should try to see them sooner rather than later. As of this past Monday afternoon, at least, the wall-mounted BGS with the I-95 territory-named shield located underneath the L'Enfant Promenade was still in place; that sign and its neighbor both also have unusual arrows. The two ancient LGSs on the 12th Street Expressway were still there too; I expect those might be the next signs to be replaced because they're really in quite terrible shape with the green peeling off in various spots.

I asked Dave Dildine whether the I-66 project involved replacing the whole sign bridge or just the BGS(s), but he didn't respond. Don't know if I'll get over that way this weekend. I sometimes drive to work on Friday but haven't decided about tomorrow yet (and getting across town from the convention center area is a nuisance at midday anyway).

Speaking of territory-named shields, BTW, it's  interesting to see that long-lost I-695 shield was neutered. Back then DC signs often had "District of Columbia" spelled out in the "state" name spot.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 08:43:40 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 23, 2018, 01:30:27 PM
....

(Hats off to our own Mike Tantillo as well, who was interviewed by Dave for the upcoming story)

The story, with several photos, is now online: https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/08/bidding-a-final-farewell-to-a-dc-ghost-road/slide/1/

QuoteMike Tantillo, a transportation engineer and road enthusiast, was not associated with the work but couldn't resist stopping by to watch the operation from afar.

"This is a piece of history that has been unearthed almost like an archaeological dig,"  Tantillo said. "This is something that has been hidden for many generations and decades."

Situated in the middle of the structure, the two faded signs for I-66 and E Street have been pummeled by countless snow and windstorms over the years, but Tantillo said sunlight took a greater toll.

"Typically, modern signs have a warranty on the reflective sheeting of about 10 to 15 years, though the "retroreflectivity"  of the sheeting could last 25 years under the right circumstances."

Tantillo, a traffic device expert, said that the signage could have exceeded its life expectancy since it faced north, away from the direct rays of the sun.

"For signs to last 50 years — those are absolutely ancient,"  Tantillo said.

The story ends with a rather ominous note that underscores my earlier point about seeing the remaining old signs while you still have the chance:

QuoteA full-scale overhaul of the District's highway signs could be on the horizon. DDOT recently secured funding from the Federal Highway Administration for a project, currently in a procurement phase, that will evaluate and possibly revamp highway signage throughout the city to ensure compliance with federal standards.

There's still some button copy left on I-395 and that paragraph suggests it's not long for this world.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on August 23, 2018, 08:59:49 PM
Can someone find the exact location of the sign on Google Maps Satellite View and post the URL?

Thanks,
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 09:15:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 23, 2018, 08:59:49 PM
Can someone find the exact location of the sign on Google Maps Satellite View and post the URL?

Thanks,

Here you go. I've dropped the pin slightly north of the actual sign bridge to make it easier if you go into Street View.

https://goo.gl/maps/RzfRDzzmoYM2


Edited to add: Dave Dildine responded to my query about how they removed the sign.

http://twitter.com/dildinewtop/status/1032800076056461314?s=21
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on August 23, 2018, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 09:15:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 23, 2018, 08:59:49 PM
Can someone find the exact location of the sign on Google Maps Satellite View and post the URL?
Thanks,
Here you go. I've dropped the pin slightly north of the actual sign bridge to make it easier if you go into Street View.
https://goo.gl/maps/RzfRDzzmoYM2

Interesting.  That 0.4 mile of southbound roadway after the split to I-66 westbound is I-695 southbound to its end just south of Constitution Avenue.  Likewise 0.2 mile of northbound I-695 was built south of the I-66 merge.

Could have been signed as I-695 but probably not beneficial.  But a short segment of I-695 was actually constructed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 10:36:17 PM
Was that smidgen of road ever actually designated as I-695 (presumably on paper, of course)? I've never heard of it having any designation other than the seldom-used "Potomac River Freeway,"  but then I'm not old enough to remember the days prior to the bigger plans being cancelled.

Of course, even if it did have the formal designation, having a BGS with an Interstate shield most likely would have confused people, and the way Ohio Drive and Rock Creek Parkway operate one-way outbound in the afternoon would have made it worse.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on August 23, 2018, 11:33:13 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 23, 2018, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 09:15:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 23, 2018, 08:59:49 PM
Can someone find the exact location of the sign on Google Maps Satellite View and post the URL?
Thanks,
Here you go. I've dropped the pin slightly north of the actual sign bridge to make it easier if you go into Street View.
https://goo.gl/maps/RzfRDzzmoYM2

Interesting.  That 0.4 mile of southbound roadway after the split to I-66 westbound is I-695 southbound to its end just south of Constitution Avenue.  Likewise 0.2 mile of northbound I-695 was built south of the I-66 merge.

Could have been signed as I-695 but probably not beneficial.  But a short segment of I-695 was actually constructed.
Well, a few segments of I-695 were constructed, but yes this is one of them.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on August 23, 2018, 11:35:25 PM
I would say that it definitely was and is a constructed segment of I-695.  I don't recall ever seeing any I-695 signs posted anywhere in D.C. before the recent designation of the 11th Street Bridge and the Southeast Freeway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 24, 2018, 12:38:49 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 08:43:40 PM
There's still some button copy left on I-395 and that paragraph suggests it's not long for this world.

Also some on the DC-295 frontage road southbound approaching Benning Road, N.E.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 07:53:35 AM
Quote from: Beltway on August 23, 2018, 11:35:25 PM
I would say that it definitely was and is a constructed segment of I-695.  I don't recall ever seeing any I-695 signs posted anywhere in D.C. before the recent designation of the 11th Street Bridge and the Southeast Freeway.

Oh, no question it was constructed with the intent it become part of the ultimately-unbuilt highway. All I meant was whether it ever actually received any kind of formal number, recognizing that's not necessarily an easy thing to determine with DC.

That is, I'm thinking along the lines of FL-9B, which is intended to become I-795 but is not yet so designated. I was wondering whether the DC stub in question was to become I-695 someday upon completion of the never-built segment, or whether it was secretly designated I-695 from the start.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on August 24, 2018, 08:14:31 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 07:53:35 AM
I was wondering whether the DC stub in question was to become I-695 someday upon completion of the never-built segment, or whether it was secretly designated I-695 from the start.

I don't know what DDOT specifically said back then, but I would say yes to both.  The design shows that it was part of a future South Leg of the Inner Loop which was I-695.  It was unposted with the route number.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 08:43:24 AM
Changing the topic, I found this old photo that's clearly from either the 1960s or 1970s. See if you can spot the road features that are no longer there and the major one that's there now and wasn't then.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180824/2e5051d4de5a5ab1e493b16b70f8021c.jpg)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Roadsguy on August 24, 2018, 09:02:11 AM
The stubs for the would-be Whitehurst widening, and I-66 itself?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on August 24, 2018, 09:52:58 AM
Segments of I-266.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 10:59:41 AM
Both correct: Two ghost ramps (now removed) in the foreground would have connected I-266 to unbuilt I-66. In the far left background, construction on I-66 in Rosslyn hadn't even begun yet (the portion from there to I-495 opened just before Christmas in 1982).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: storm2k on August 24, 2018, 11:43:06 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 09:15:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 23, 2018, 08:59:49 PM
Can someone find the exact location of the sign on Google Maps Satellite View and post the URL?

Thanks,

Here you go. I've dropped the pin slightly north of the actual sign bridge to make it easier if you go into Street View.

https://goo.gl/maps/RzfRDzzmoYM2


Edited to add: Dave Dildine responded to my query about how they removed the sign.

http://twitter.com/dildinewtop/status/1032800076056461314?s=21

What interests me (almost) more is that it looks like they're putting the new signs on the same sign bridge. Guess they feel like it's still in good shape after nearly 60 years to handle new signs?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: andrewkbrown on August 24, 2018, 12:03:20 PM
I wonder if DDOT will update the lighting on the sign bridge. Google Maps and the WTOP photos shows the previously covered section had the lights removed. (because why illuminate a plywood covered sign?) Also, is the far right sign remaining covered or removed all together? The WTOP report just says it was for a closed exit, and is not being replaced.
Title: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 12:04:46 PM
Quote from: storm2k on August 24, 2018, 11:43:06 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 09:15:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 23, 2018, 08:59:49 PM
Can someone find the exact location of the sign on Google Maps Satellite View and post the URL?

Thanks,

Here you go. I've dropped the pin slightly north of the actual sign bridge to make it easier if you go into Street View.

https://goo.gl/maps/RzfRDzzmoYM2


Edited to add: Dave Dildine responded to my query about how they removed the sign.

http://twitter.com/dildinewtop/status/1032800076056461314?s=21

What interests me (almost) more is that it looks like they're putting the new signs on the same sign bridge. Guess they feel like it's still in good shape after nearly 60 years to handle new signs?

That they are! Photos taken about one minute ago. I got off work early and came over here.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180824/1cbbd991d7bfcebdbe8c5a5bbfb9c71a.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180824/0bd478f6aab7a67fb7ec4837b8a74ec8.jpg)


The "p"  is slightly out of alignment. I suspect it's an upside-down "d."  Edited to add: WTOP's Dave Dildine just came by to say hello–I had tweeted him when I saw his vehicle parked nearby–and when I pointed this out to him, he agreed. He also laughed and said he wished I hadn't pointed it out because now he'll see it every time!

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180824/f04121ed829548e09ce8f202e623a5bf.jpg)

The other two visible BGSs are to be replaced too, but they may not get to it today. Dave said they had a LOT of trouble removing the I-695 sign because the bolts were severely rusted (no surprise at all after so many years out in the elements).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on August 24, 2018, 12:31:04 PM
Quote from: andrewkbrown on August 24, 2018, 12:03:20 PM
I wonder if DDOT will update the lighting on the sign bridge. Google Maps and the WTOP photos shows the previously covered section had the lights removed. (because why illuminate a plywood covered sign?) Also, is the far right sign remaining covered or removed all together? The WTOP report just says it was for a closed exit, and is not being replaced.
Fully reflective signs shouldn't need lighting at all. But given the location coming out from under a dark overpass, maybe it'll be installed anyway. The one on the right would not be replaced but the 66 sign ought to be extended to include a destination.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on August 24, 2018, 12:37:59 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 24, 2018, 08:14:31 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 07:53:35 AM
I was wondering whether the DC stub in question was to become I-695 someday upon completion of the never-built segment, or whether it was secretly designated I-695 from the start.

I don't know what DDOT specifically said back then, but I would say yes to both.  The design shows that it was part of a future South Leg of the Inner Loop which was I-695.  It was unposted with the route number.
Were the Maine Avenue ramps from 395 considered 695? They're almost the same as the 66 split in terms of length.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 12:38:34 PM
They seem to be taking a break, so I'm going to leave. I just took this for those interested in what the overall assembly is like from above.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180824/000f7f0cef0115e3b4513504845dd3ce.jpg)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on August 24, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 12:38:34 PM
They seem to be taking a break, so I'm going to leave. I just took this for those interested in what the overall assembly is like from above.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180824/000f7f0cef0115e3b4513504845dd3ce.jpg)

For such an old structure, it looks like it's in really good shape. No wonder they decided to reuse it.

Also, that upside-down "d" in "Independence Ave" is hilarious. Hopefully this isn't a sign of DDOT catching the infamous Craig County virus.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: TheStranger on August 24, 2018, 01:14:39 PM
It's cool to hear that that I-695 sign will be preserved!  Hope same thing happens to the I-66 sign on the right of the bridge once that's up for replacement.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on August 24, 2018, 01:20:39 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 08:43:40 PM
The story ends with a rather ominous note that underscores my earlier point about seeing the remaining old signs while you still have the chance:

QuoteA full-scale overhaul of the District's highway signs could be on the horizon. DDOT recently secured funding from the Federal Highway Administration for a project, currently in a procurement phase, that will evaluate and possibly revamp highway signage throughout the city to ensure compliance with federal standards.

There's still some button copy left on I-395 and that paragraph suggests it's not long for this world.
I wonder if they'll convert to mile-based exit numbers on I-395 or I-295 at all.  It looks like they were starting to (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8823696,-77.0191714,3a,18.2y,91.55h,92.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siv1BL6SSokflQenVBK59vQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) when I-695 was signed and then aborted the attempt (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8823761,-77.0191633,3a,24.9y,94.55h,91.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUqdSuFRz0PdkPZ9LIErcBQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).  For I-295, I'd love to see a mile-based scheme unified with the short segment in Maryland (which would get rid of the exit 1 followed by exit 1 situation SB) and DC 295, though if one was to consider only the DC mileage, the numbers could easily be considered close enough and left alone.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 02:31:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 24, 2018, 01:20:39 PM
I wonder if they'll convert to mile-based exit numbers on I-395 or I-295 at all.  It looks like they were starting to (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8823696,-77.0191714,3a,18.2y,91.55h,92.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siv1BL6SSokflQenVBK59vQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) when I-695 was signed and then aborted the attempt (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8823761,-77.0191633,3a,24.9y,94.55h,91.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUqdSuFRz0PdkPZ9LIErcBQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).  For I-295, I'd love to see a mile-based scheme unified with the short segment in Maryland (which would get rid of the exit 1 followed by exit 1 situation SB) and DC 295, though if one was to consider only the DC mileage, the numbers could easily be considered close enough and left alone.

On I-395 I kind of suspect they won't, but I guess one can never say never! The entire length of I-395 in DC is about 3.4 miles (measured on Google Maps). I count eight exits on the inbound side (including the left "exit" represented by the thru movement onto I-695 and not including the intersection with New York Avenue at the end of the road) and six on the outbound side (including the left "exit" that becomes the HOV lanes in Virginia):

Inbound: 14 Street/National Mall, Potomac Park/US Park Police, 12 Street Expwy/Verizon Center, Maine Avenue/SW Waterfront/Nationals Park, I-695, C Street SW/US Capitol/The House, D Street NW/US Senate, and Massachusetts Avenue
Outbound: US Capitol, I-695, 6 Street SW/7 Street SW/L'Enfant Promenade, Maine Avenue/12 Street/Downtown, Potomac Park/US Park Police, and the left lane "exiting" to the separate HOV carriageway

I suppose you could use milepost numbers on there, but it seems like it might require a lot of suffixing. Not sure it makes sense. I-295 might be more logical, especially if they unified it with DC-295 (I'm sure someone will be happy to tell us why they're not supposed to do that!).




BTW, Dave Dildine agreed with my sentiment that it's a shame to see unique and interesting old signs disappearing, but I certainly agreed with him that some of DC's decrepit and misaligned signage can be a problem. We both dislike the signs on inbound I-395 because they've often been poorly placed (not necessarily aligned with the lanes) and crammed-in. He noted that many of DC's signs are not standard from one place to another and ought to be made consistent. I understand and agree with that in principle, although I lament that "progress" so often means the loss of what makes these things interesting.

He definitely concurred that if you want to see DC's older signage while it's still there, get to the city now!




Edited to add: One more comment–if you viewed his story yesterday, view it again. He's added more photos to the gallery. Here's the link again for convenience. The new photos include drawings of what will replace the E Street and I-66 signs.

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/08/bidding-a-final-farewell-to-a-dc-ghost-road/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Roadsguy on August 24, 2018, 04:43:25 PM
Those new signs look great. I would think a "To I-395" would be warranted on the through movement to Independence Avenue, but it wouldn't fit on the old gantry.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on August 24, 2018, 05:25:30 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on August 24, 2018, 04:43:25 PM
Those new signs look great. I would think a "To I-395" would be warranted on the through movement to Independence Avenue, but it wouldn't fit on the old gantry.
That's not the best route to I-395 south from there. I-66 west to VA-110 probably is.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on August 24, 2018, 05:29:54 PM
^ No easy or straightforward way to get to SB 110 if you're going across the TR Bridge from DC.  66/110 is a partial interchange with ramps only to/from Rosslyn and 66 West.  You'd either have to get off at Rosslyn and go through 4 traffic signals to get turned back around, or take 50 West and U-turn at the first interchange (which lacks traffic signals).  And the latter would only get you onto the GW Pkwy, not 110, though you can still access 395 from the Pkwy.  At that point, you might as well stay on 50 west to 27 to get to 395 if your destination is in Virginia...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 07:35:38 PM
The other issue with posting "TO I-395"  is that you can't always do that due to rush-hour reversals and the like. But trying to post the hours on a BGS for such a short road might be information overload.

There really is no good way from the Watergate area to I-395 if Rock Creek Parkway isn't available via the back of the Kennedy Center. My wife used to work at the Watergate and we found the "least bad"  route in the PM rush hour to be Virginia Avenue to 23 Street to Memorial Bridge. But I-66 to the Beltway HO/T lanes was faster (though pricier).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Roadsguy on August 24, 2018, 07:55:11 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 07:35:38 PM
The other issue with posting "TO I-395"  is that you can't always do that due to rush-hour reversals and the like. But trying to post the hours on a BGS for such a short road might be information overload.

There really is no good way from the Watergate area to I-395 if Rock Creek Parkway isn't available via the back of the Kennedy Center. My wife used to work at the Watergate and we found the "least bad"  route in the PM rush hour to be Virginia Avenue to 23 Street to Memorial Bridge. But I-66 to the Beltway HO/T lanes was faster (though pricier).

Oh yeah, I forgot about the one-way during rush hour thing. I suppose if they really wanted to sign it, they could have an small LED indicator in the middle of the sign, but then you're getting needlessly expensive.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on August 24, 2018, 09:13:28 PM
Actually, the best way to get to 395 is Rock Creek Parkway to Memorial Bridge to GW Parkway, but that isn't at all intuitive and really easy to fuck up. In fact, I had lived in DC for over a decade before I discovered it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 09:19:18 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on August 24, 2018, 09:13:28 PM
Actually, the best way to get to 395 is Rock Creek Parkway to Memorial Bridge to GW Parkway, but that isn't at all intuitive and really easy to fuck up. In fact, I had lived in DC for over a decade before I discovered it.

But depending on your point of origin, you may not be able to go left onto Rock Creek Parkway to do that (can't legally go left from Virginia Avenue, for example), and at certain times of day Rock Creek Parkway is one-way outbound on both sides of the road. That was what I was getting at before.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on August 24, 2018, 09:27:20 PM
Quote from: 1995hooyou may not be able to go left onto Rock Creek Parkway to do that (can't legally go left from Virginia Avenue, for example)

Did they change this recently?  Used to be a legal move.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 24, 2018, 10:59:04 PM
An AARoads member gets a shout-out and quoted in an article on WTOP Radio!

WTOP Radio: Bidding a final farewell to a DC ghost road (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/08/bidding-a-final-farewell-to-a-dc-ghost-road/slide/18/)

[Emphasis added below.]

QuoteWork began Thursday on the Interstate 66 Potomac River Freeway, uncovering a roadside relic and evoking memories of an ambitious and contentious era in highway design.

QuoteAs strips of rotting plywood were pried off the face of a nearly 50-year-old sign, the outline of an Interstate 695 shield and two white arrows came into view, indicating a freeway that never saw the light of day.

Quote"This sign is going to go to our office and we are going to install it in an area where we can preserve its history,"  said Ogechi Elekwachi, citywide field manager for the District Department of Transportation. Elekwachi watched as pieces of the sign were carefully dismantled and lowered into the back of a truck.

Quote"In terms of the font size, the current [Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices] has a different standard that we have to follow. Also the sheeting material that we use now is a diamond grade for overhead signs."

QuoteMike Tantillo, a transportation engineer and road enthusiast, was not associated with the work but couldn't resist stopping by to watch the operation from afar.

Quote"This is a piece of history that has been unearthed almost like an archaeological dig,"  Tantillo said. "This is something that has been hidden for many generations and decades."

QuoteSituated in the middle of the structure, the two faded signs for I-66 and E Street have been pummeled by countless snow and windstorms over the years, but Tantillo said sunlight took a greater toll.

Quote"Typically, modern signs have a warranty on the reflective sheeting of about 10 to 15 years, though the "retroreflectivity"  of the sheeting could last 25 years under the right circumstances."

QuoteTantillo, a traffic device expert, said that the signage could have exceeded its life expectancy since it faced north, away from the direct rays of the sun.

Quote"For signs to last 50 years — those are absolutely ancient,"  Tantillo said.

QuoteThe fourth boarded up sign on the right side of the structure will not be replaced. It marked the spot where an old exit used to be.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mtantillo on August 24, 2018, 11:24:10 PM
Nice to have my "5 seconds of fame"  on WTOP! I had been emailing back and forth with Dave giving him some technical info on sign life. Then he emailed me yesterday morning to say it was happening! I had not yet left home for work, so I got down there as quick as I could and there was Dave with a DDOT public affairs staffer. It was pretty awesome to see them uncover the I-695 sign!

As much as I hate to see the historical signing go, I'm glad DDOT is taking signing seriously for once!

As of tonight, the Independence Ave/Maine Ave sign is up, but the old E Street and I-66 signs remain. They thought this would be a two day project....clearly it took them two days just to do one sign!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 24, 2018, 11:33:52 PM
Quote from: mtantillo on August 24, 2018, 11:24:10 PM
Nice to have my "5 seconds of fame"  on WTOP! I had been emailing back and forth with Dave giving him some technical info on sign life. Then he emailed me yesterday morning to say it was happening! I had not yet left home for work, so I got down there as quick as I could and there was Dave with a DDOT public affairs staffer. It was pretty awesome to see them uncover the I-695 sign!

That was very, very cool.

QuoteAs much as I hate to see the historical signing go, I'm glad DDOT is taking signing seriously for once!

Agreed. I hope it will be possible to correctly follow the signed U.S. routes across D.C. without having inside knowledge at some point in the future.

QuoteAs of tonight, the Independence Ave/Maine Ave sign is up, but the old E Street and I-66 signs remain. They thought this would be a two day project....clearly it took them two days just to do one sign!

The contractor that DDOT is mostly using with traffic signals and some signs (including this one) is M. C. Dean, who is a IMO pretty reputable firm (they used to have a huge contract with VDOT's Northern Virginia District, and I still think they still have some contracts with VDOT and maybe some municipal and county governments in Virginia too).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 25, 2018, 09:37:07 AM
Quote from: mtantillo on August 24, 2018, 11:24:10 PM
....

As of tonight, the Independence Ave/Maine Ave sign is up, but the old E Street and I-66 signs remain. They thought this would be a two day project....clearly it took them two days just to do one sign!

See my post above–when I saw Dave there yesterday, he said the rusted bolts on the I-695 sign gave them a lot of trouble such that removing that sign took a lot longer than they expected. Presumably they'll have a similar problem with the other two signs. Shouldn't have been a surprise!




Quote from: froggie on August 24, 2018, 09:27:20 PM
Quote from: 1995hooyou may not be able to go left onto Rock Creek Parkway to do that (can't legally go left from Virginia Avenue, for example)

Did they change this recently?  Used to be a legal move.

I thought you can't legally go left there, but I could be mistaken since I don't use that intersection very often. From Street View imagery it's not easy to tell which direction is subject to the no-left-turn signs.

Anyway, as long as it's not the PM rush hour, you can usually, but not always, go around the other side of the Watergate to the Kennedy Center garage exit and make a left there, though it's not the most intuitive route nor necessarily the easiest left turn (dual turn lanes combined with a very tight space combined with DC-area drivers' refusal to stay in their lanes at dual turns all mean you have to be very careful there). It's a slightly complicated little area and it's best avoided if a show at the Kennedy Center is letting out.

I think in the end, perhaps the easiest way from that area to I-395 may be to go over the Roosevelt Bridge and then take Route 50 to Washington Boulevard, then follow that to I-395. Not ideal either, and you sometimes get a backup at the loop ramp from 50 to Washington Boulevard, but at peak hours I find it's better than waiting it out at the lights in Rosslyn (though I don't know whether the line getting off westbound I-66 is any shorter now that HO/T rules apply–in the HOV era, lots of people had to exit there). Edited to add: More typically for me, if it's rush hour and I'm driving solo, would be to continue on 50 to Fillmore Street, make a left, and take surface streets home (Walter Reed/Beauregard/Braddock/Van Dorn) so as to avoid I-395 altogether.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mtantillo on August 25, 2018, 10:54:24 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 25, 2018, 09:37:07 AM
Quote from: mtantillo on August 24, 2018, 11:24:10 PM
....

As of tonight, the Independence Ave/Maine Ave sign is up, but the old E Street and I-66 signs remain. They thought this would be a two day project....clearly it took them two days just to do one sign!

See my post above–when I saw Dave there yesterday, he said the rusted bolts on the I-695 sign gave them a lot of trouble such that removing that sign took a lot longer than they expected. Presumably they'll have a similar problem with the other two signs. Shouldn't have been a surprise!




Quote from: froggie on August 24, 2018, 09:27:20 PM
Quote from: 1995hooyou may not be able to go left onto Rock Creek Parkway to do that (can't legally go left from Virginia Avenue, for example)

Did they change this recently?  Used to be a legal move.

I thought you can't legally go left there, but I could be mistaken since I don't use that intersection very often. From Street View imagery it's not easy to tell which direction is subject to the no-left-turn signs.

Anyway, as long as it's not the PM rush hour, you can usually, but not always, go around the other side of the Watergate to the Kennedy Center garage exit and make a left there, though it's not the most intuitive route nor necessarily the easiest left turn (dual turn lanes combined with a very tight space combined with DC-area drivers' refusal to stay in their lanes at dual turns all mean you have to be very careful there). It's a slightly complicated little area and it's best avoided if a show at the Kennedy Center is letting out.

I think in the end, perhaps the easiest way from that area to I-395 may be to go over the Roosevelt Bridge and then take Route 50 to Washington Boulevard, then follow that to I-395. Not ideal either, and you sometimes get a backup at the loop ramp from 50 to Washington Boulevard, but at peak hours I find it's better than waiting it out at the lights in Rosslyn (though I don't know whether the line getting off westbound I-66 is any shorter now that HO/T rules apply–in the HOV era, lots of people had to exit there). Edited to add: More typically for me, if it's rush hour and I'm driving solo, would be to continue on 50 to Fillmore Street, make a left, and take surface streets home (Walter Reed/Beauregard/Braddock/Van Dorn) so as to avoid I-395 altogether.

The left turn from Virginia Ave to Rock Creek Parkway has been banned since at least 2007 (when I moved to DC and started driving that route regularly). That doesn't stop many drivers from making it anyway. The best legal way to make that move is to go straight into the boathouse parking lot and drive around the lot, and then make a right onto the Parkway...or pull a quick U-turn in the lot entrance (I've gotten really good at that maneuver....when the SB left onto Virginia Ave is backed up badly, you can save several minutes by making a right, U-turn, and straight across).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 25, 2018, 01:53:42 PM
BTW, it occurs to me that the sign diagrammed below could be considered incorrect since I-66 is the thru route at that location even if it chokes down to a single lane, such that you aren't necessarily "exiting" if you follow that route. I find it hard to quibble with the sign, though, because the road's layout does make it feel like an exit, and on the inbound Roosevelt Bridge the equivalent movement to stay on I-66 is likewise marked as an "exit." (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8928897,-77.0556475,3a,75y,116.52h,91.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXUGYVlLqpI7ufLExyy_QFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (Edited to add: I suppose on the bridge maybe Route 50 is considered the thru route? Normally I would assume an Interstate would trump a US route, but I don't doubt the original signage came from the days before I-66 existed between Rosslyn and the Beltway and I would not be surprised to learn that replacement signs simply copied the old ones.)

(https://wtop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/014-701x485.jpg)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Roadsguy on August 25, 2018, 03:17:03 PM
An exit is whatever DDOT says it is. :)

I'm not a local, but it wouldn't surprise me if most people in the area thought of I-66 as for all intents and purposes ending at the interchange at the end of the Theodore Roosevelt Bridge. It's only barely signed on the would-be West Leg at all. Though signed EB exiting the bridge, it isn't even signed here (https://goo.gl/maps/7KM4VgpGBAP2) right down the ramp.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 25, 2018, 03:22:13 PM
Also of note is that there are no reassurance shields left on DC's portion, making it very easy to view it as a "To I-66"  or "To the Whitehurst"  kind of road.

Frankly, putting "Exit"  on that sign makes a lot more sense than, say, VDOT signing the thru lanes on the Beltway in Springfield as an "exit,"  regardless of what the MUTCD might say.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on August 25, 2018, 09:55:02 PM
I always liked the masonry on DC's freeway overpasses.  To me it blends in with the marble monuments.

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 25, 2018, 11:18:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 07:35:38 PM
The other issue with posting "TO I-395"  is that you can't always do that due to rush-hour reversals and the like. But trying to post the hours on a BGS for such a short road might be information overload.

There's also the matter of truck traffic.  I realize that a  NO TRUCKS banner could be included, but given how many truck drivers I see on NPS-maintained parkways (nearly all of which ban all trucks with the exception of trucks with U.S. Government tags) putting that on a sign that requires transiting park areas is probably not a good idea.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 25, 2018, 11:31:44 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 25, 2018, 11:18:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 07:35:38 PM
The other issue with posting "TO I-395"  is that you can't always do that due to rush-hour reversals and the like. But trying to post the hours on a BGS for such a short road might be information overload.

There's also the matter of truck traffic.  I realize that a  NO TRUCKS banner could be included, but given how many truck drivers I see on NPS-maintained parkways (nearly all of which ban all trucks with the exception of trucks with U.S. Government tags) putting that on a sign that requires transiting park areas is probably not a good idea.

Great point. Indeed on Friday afternoon the WTOP traffic report mentioned an "overheight truck" stuck on the GW Parkway near Memorial Bridge. The truck should not have been there at all, of course.

I was thinking the "Independence Avenue/Maine Avenue" sign ought to have a "No Trucks" banner even before you said that.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on August 26, 2018, 08:19:05 AM
The weekend my now-wife moved in with me in 2012, a truck got stuck under an overpass on Rock Creek Parkway, I believe the one that carries M Street over RCP. Great timing, since we were driving back and forth between Columbia Heights and Alexandria all weekend.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on August 26, 2018, 09:53:01 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 25, 2018, 01:53:42 PM
BTW, it occurs to me that the sign diagrammed below could be considered incorrect since I-66 is the thru route at that location even if it chokes down to a single lane, such that you aren't necessarily "exiting" if you follow that route. I find it hard to quibble with the sign, though, because the road's layout does make it feel like an exit, and on the inbound Roosevelt Bridge the equivalent movement to stay on I-66 is likewise marked as an "exit." (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8928897,-77.0556475,3a,75y,116.52h,91.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXUGYVlLqpI7ufLExyy_QFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (Edited to add: I suppose on the bridge maybe Route 50 is considered the thru route? Normally I would assume an Interstate would trump a US route, but I don't doubt the original signage came from the days before I-66 existed between Rosslyn and the Beltway and I would not be surprised to learn that replacement signs simply copied the old ones.)

(https://wtop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/014-701x485.jpg)

Wish they would add a control city to this sign.  I believe the control city for I-66 west should be Fairfax, VA.  It should be signed as the control until the VA-267 interchange.  At that point, both Fairfax and Front Royal should be the controls until VA 243, where Front Royal will be the only control for westbound.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on August 26, 2018, 10:53:21 PM
Quote from: mtantilloThe left turn from Virginia Ave to Rock Creek Parkway has been banned since at least 2007 (when I moved to DC and started driving that route regularly).

If it's been "banned since 2007", there were at least a few occasions while I was stationed in the area (2008-12) where it was NOT signed as such.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Roadsguy on August 26, 2018, 10:59:26 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 26, 2018, 10:53:21 PM
Quote from: mtantilloThe left turn from Virginia Ave to Rock Creek Parkway has been banned since at least 2007 (when I moved to DC and started driving that route regularly).

If it's been "banned since 2007", there were at least a few occasions while I was stationed in the area (2008-12) where it was NOT signed as such.

From inspecting the Street View since mid-2007, it seems there was a No Left Turn sign for every year except 2011, when it seems to have fallen off or been stolen or something. You can see the spot on the pole where it was. It was replaced by May 2012 on the pole with the No Turn On Red sign.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: machpost on September 07, 2018, 04:04:33 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2018, 12:04:46 PM
Quote from: storm2k on August 24, 2018, 11:43:06 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 23, 2018, 09:15:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 23, 2018, 08:59:49 PM
Can someone find the exact location of the sign on Google Maps Satellite View and post the URL?

Thanks,

Here you go. I've dropped the pin slightly north of the actual sign bridge to make it easier if you go into Street View.

https://goo.gl/maps/RzfRDzzmoYM2


Edited to add: Dave Dildine responded to my query about how they removed the sign.

http://twitter.com/dildinewtop/status/1032800076056461314?s=21

What interests me (almost) more is that it looks like they're putting the new signs on the same sign bridge. Guess they feel like it's still in good shape after nearly 60 years to handle new signs?

That they are! Photos taken about one minute ago. I got off work early and came over here.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180824/1cbbd991d7bfcebdbe8c5a5bbfb9c71a.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180824/0bd478f6aab7a67fb7ec4837b8a74ec8.jpg)


The "p"  is slightly out of alignment. I suspect it's an upside-down "d."  Edited to add: WTOP's Dave Dildine just came by to say hello–I had tweeted him when I saw his vehicle parked nearby–and when I pointed this out to him, he agreed. He also laughed and said he wished I hadn't pointed it out because now he'll see it every time!

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180824/f04121ed829548e09ce8f202e623a5bf.jpg)

The other two visible BGSs are to be replaced too, but they may not get to it today. Dave said they had a LOT of trouble removing the I-695 sign because the bolts were severely rusted (no surprise at all after so many years out in the elements).

They were working on these when I passed by yesterday. They had removed the plywood covering the rightmost sign, which read "Rock Creek Parkway / Right Lane" in case anyone was curious.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on September 07, 2018, 07:49:37 PM
Quote from: machpost on September 07, 2018, 04:04:33 PM

They were working on these when I passed by yesterday. They had removed the plywood covering the rightmost sign, which read "Rock Creek Parkway / Right Lane" in case anyone was curious.
I am curious. My understanding was this was related to the old access to Kennedy Center, so I would have expected the message to be related. But I see now, looking at old aerials, that the ramp split to Kennedy and RCP. (Now, of course, the "I-695" through movement makes for easy enough access to RCP anyway.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 08, 2018, 11:56:51 AM
Steve Anderson has a photo of the rightmost sign on his DC Roads site, IIRC.

I have not been over that way since I took the pictures I posted above and won't be heading that way today (baseball doubleheader to which I have a ticket, plus the flooding on Rock Creek Parkway is still an issue per the last traffic report I heard).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on October 23, 2018, 03:19:19 PM
I was reading about the Connecticut Avenue tunnel under Dupont Circle as originally it was not there prior to 1941 circa and was added to alleviate congestion at the circle obviously.

I also noticed the statue in the center of the circle is directly on top the deck that covers the tunnel.  The statue (and fountain with it) which is a memorial to Dupont, was built and placed in 1921 years before the tunnel.   I am going to say that during construction of the cut and cover tunnel the fountain and statue must of been removed and placed back upon completion.  However, the Washington Metro Red Line is presently beneath the tunnel with its station going the whole length of the underpass deep beneath it.

I assume the Metro was not cut and cover and that the station was bored through hence the long escalators leading down to the station on both north and south ends of Dupont Circle.   Like most stations on the system they are normally deep.  So basically the whole tunnel placement of the transit lines are more than likely bored.

I was also noticing that where Connecticut Avenue spans the gorge of Rock Creek the Red Line is still beneath the road despite the bridge across the gorge has no lower level.  So I assume also the dept of the line under Dupont Circle is that way to begin its very deep descent so that it passes under Rock Creek which is over 130 feel beneath CT Avenue.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 23, 2018, 03:25:31 PM
QuoteSo basically the whole tunnel placement of the transit lines are more than likely bored.

Not true.  Much of the Green Line was cut-and-cover, especially along 7th St NW.

QuoteI was also noticing that where Connecticut Avenue spans the gorge of Rock Creek the Red Line is still beneath the road despite the bridge across the gorge has no lower level.  So I assume also the dept of the line under Dupont Circle is that way to begin its very deep descent so that it passes under Rock Creek which is over 130 feel beneath CT Avenue.

Not the case for Dupont Circle, as that station is almost a mile from Rock Creek and the depth of the Red Line at Dupont Circle is actually about the same "elevation" as Rock Creek is underneath Connecticut Ave...remember, the street climbs a hill for most of that mile between Dupont Circle and Rock Creek.

Instead, this is a better explanation for the depth at the Woodley Park station.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 23, 2018, 04:14:19 PM
I believe the Connecticut Avenue underpass was constructed using part of the old streetcar station, rather than via cut-and-cover.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on October 23, 2018, 05:02:11 PM
See www.dupontunderground.org for current use of old streetcar station. Streetcar tracks had too tight a turning radius to be usable for Metro, so they went deeper.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on October 23, 2018, 05:12:28 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on October 23, 2018, 05:02:11 PM
See www.dupontunderground.org for current use of old streetcar station. Streetcar tracks had too tight a turning radius to be usable for Metro, so they went deeper.
I believe that 1995 was talking about the road not the transit line.   

However, your answer is feasible to why they went deep for the subway.  Plus the street car tunnel is being used as a mall or something.  Anyway, Froggie brought up an interesting point too that CT Avenue is not level and the topography of the city is that further north you go the rise occurs.  That said the Dupont Station is level with the tunnel under Rock Creek.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 23, 2018, 06:49:52 PM
I was referring to the road, but he's right that the streetcar facility was found to be unsuitable for the subway.

The old streetcar facility was a food court for a little while, but that failed and closed. One side has been used as a short-term arts venue on occasion, but it generally sits abandoned.

I read somewhere that one reason the Red Line is as deep as it is has to do with the soil–apparently going deeper may have meant more stable ground. But that doesn't explain why the SOB Lines just south of there aren't all that deep (the Red Line passes under the SOB Lines near Farragut Square, though it passes over them at Metro Center). There was some cut-and-cover work around there.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on October 23, 2018, 09:23:53 PM
Rock Creek valley helped govern the depth of line under Conn. Ave.  It was decided to tunnel completely under the valley.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on October 24, 2018, 02:41:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 23, 2018, 09:23:53 PM
Rock Creek valley helped govern the depth of line under Conn. Ave.  It was decided to tunnel completely under the valley.
Only because the alternative was a bridge over Rock Creek and the NPS didn't like due aesthetics of that.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 24, 2018, 03:01:36 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 24, 2018, 02:41:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 23, 2018, 09:23:53 PM
Rock Creek valley helped govern the depth of line under Conn. Ave.  It was decided to tunnel completely under the valley.
Only because the alternative was a bridge over Rock Creek and the NPS didn't like due aesthetics of that.

I recall that they felt that  a new bridge would be especially intrusive given that southbound Beach Drive, N.W. (the main north-south motor road through Rock Creek Park) emerged from the Zoo Tunnel to see the Duke Ellington (Calvert Street, N.W.) bridge and the  William Howard Taft Bridge (Connecticut Avenue, N.W.), and potentially a new (but lower) bridge for the Red Line would contribute little.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on October 24, 2018, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 23, 2018, 06:49:52 PMThe old streetcar facility was a food court for a little while, but that failed and closed. One side has been used as a short-term arts venue on occasion, but it generally sits abandoned.
When I moved to DC in 2001, the attempt to turn it into something resembling Underground Atlanta had just failed.

Another reason the tunnels are deeper than normal is the fact that the earth under the streets is a rat's nest of buried utilities, some of which don't officially exist.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: BrianP on October 24, 2018, 03:51:53 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 24, 2018, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 23, 2018, 06:49:52 PMThe old streetcar facility was a food court for a little while, but that failed and closed. One side has been used as a short-term arts venue on occasion, but it generally sits abandoned.
When I moved to DC in 2001, the attempt to turn it into something resembling Underground Atlanta had just failed.

Another reason the tunnels are deeper than normal is the fact that the earth under the streets is a rat's nest of buried utilities, some of which don't officially exist.
E.g.
QuoteThere were also some only-in-DC problems. The Great Society Subway notes that "near the White House, engineers were warned away from secret communications links, including the famous Hot Line to Moscow."
https://architectofthecapital.org/posts/2016/6/22/metro-under-construction
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on October 24, 2018, 04:26:13 PM
Quote from: BrianP on October 24, 2018, 03:51:53 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 24, 2018, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 23, 2018, 06:49:52 PMThe old streetcar facility was a food court for a little while, but that failed and closed. One side has been used as a short-term arts venue on occasion, but it generally sits abandoned.
When I moved to DC in 2001, the attempt to turn it into something resembling Underground Atlanta had just failed.

Another reason the tunnels are deeper than normal is the fact that the earth under the streets is a rat's nest of buried utilities, some of which don't officially exist.
E.g.
QuoteThere were also some only-in-DC problems. The Great Society Subway notes that "near the White House, engineers were warned away from secret communications links, including the famous Hot Line to Moscow."
https://architectofthecapital.org/posts/2016/6/22/metro-under-construction
Yeah, this also came up during construction of the Silver Line.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on October 24, 2018, 11:19:06 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 24, 2018, 02:41:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 23, 2018, 09:23:53 PM
Rock Creek valley helped govern the depth of line under Conn. Ave.  It was decided to tunnel completely under the valley.
Only because the alternative was a bridge over Rock Creek and the NPS didn’t like due aesthetics of that.

One of the proposed lines was deep enough that the bridge was low in the valley and thereby relatively short.  I saw a rendering back then and it looked decent enough aesthetically.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 26, 2018, 05:25:06 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 24, 2018, 11:19:06 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 24, 2018, 02:41:02 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 23, 2018, 09:23:53 PM
Rock Creek valley helped govern the depth of line under Conn. Ave.  It was decided to tunnel completely under the valley.
Only because the alternative was a bridge over Rock Creek and the NPS didn't like due aesthetics of that.

One of the proposed lines was deep enough that the bridge was low in the valley and thereby relatively short.  I saw a rendering back then and it looked decent enough aesthetically.

I have a memory of the National  Park Service (back in the 1970's, before even the initial part of the Red Line opened between Rhode Island Avenue and Farragut North in March 1976) effectively saying not just no, but hell no to any new bridge crossing the Rock Creek stream valley here.

The NPS did allow WMATA's contractors to build a temporary bridge over the creek as part of the Red Line construction work, but that was removed long ago.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on November 28, 2018, 09:41:39 AM
Closing the loop on the famous I-66 sign bridge, I still haven't driven past there in several months (I've been home sick this week anyway), but I just found this on Wikipedia while looking for something else:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/2018-10-25_13_51_18_View_west_along_Interstate_66_%28Potomac_River_Freeway%29_from_the_overpass_for_Triangle_Park-Virginia_Avenue-New_Hampshire_Avenue-25th_Street_in_Washington%2C_D.C..jpg/800px-thumbnail.jpg)

The following link is to the full-size image: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/2018-10-25_13_51_18_View_west_along_Interstate_66_%28Potomac_River_Freeway%29_from_the_overpass_for_Triangle_Park-Virginia_Avenue-New_Hampshire_Avenue-25th_Street_in_Washington%2C_D.C..jpg
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mergingtraffic on November 28, 2018, 06:23:29 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 28, 2018, 09:41:39 AM
Closing the loop on the famous I-66 sign bridge, I still haven't driven past there in several months (I've been home sick this week anyway), but I just found this on Wikipedia while looking for something else:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/2018-10-25_13_51_18_View_west_along_Interstate_66_%28Potomac_River_Freeway%29_from_the_overpass_for_Triangle_Park-Virginia_Avenue-New_Hampshire_Avenue-25th_Street_in_Washington%2C_D.C..jpg/800px-thumbnail.jpg)

The following link is to the full-size image: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/2018-10-25_13_51_18_View_west_along_Interstate_66_%28Potomac_River_Freeway%29_from_the_overpass_for_Triangle_Park-Virginia_Avenue-New_Hampshire_Avenue-25th_Street_in_Washington%2C_D.C..jpg

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4049/35335767420_6bde872e3b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VQv3zj)
So what was under wood panel originally?  I know there was a sign OVER the wood panel but what was under the panel originally in the 60s?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on November 28, 2018, 06:30:04 PM
There are pictures earlier in this thread that show what was under the wood panel on the left. Here's a link to froggie's post that started the discussion: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=714.msg2351299#msg2351299

The wood panel on the far right covered a sign for Rock Creek Parkway and the Kennedy Center. That sign was actually visible for a long time until the exit in question was closed, whereas the sign on the left was never visible.

BTW, neither wood panel ever had a sign over the wood.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 14, 2018, 12:57:03 AM
WTOP Radio: Years of work zones ahead for drivers along Anacostia River (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/11/upgrades-coming-to-d-c-s-longest-freeway/?fbclid=IwAR0q-3VqNO-xuPg5uwaN5iOcAT_IrR4gKhP8KrjQXZpWCAHcdN3MT7cjsmI)

This sign went up the other day on  DC-295 southbound south of Eastern Avenue, N.E.  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10215185723868563&set=p.10215185723868563&type=3&eid=ARAjjxNz65WvWOPTYEkbH7WtEcXV_GKtUVkgpdjISGPgThjLhLRPJiYWlB7Lk7d0mCwHVF-NIR-QY98i (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10215185723868563&set=p.10215185723868563&type=3&eid=ARAjjxNz65WvWOPTYEkbH7WtEcXV_GKtUVkgpdjISGPgThjLhLRPJiYWlB7Lk7d0mCwHVF-NIR-QY98i)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 14, 2018, 09:52:17 AM
Can't view the sign–it requires a Facebook login.

There's already some sort of overnight construction underway on I-295 and it's a crapshoot whether it gets mentioned on the WTOP traffic reports. We sometimes take the 11th Street Bridge to I-295 to come home from Caps games in order to avoid the roadwork on I-395. This past Tuesday they mentioned the backup on I-295 extending across the bridge, so we took I-395 and found they had failed to mention the closure of the two left lanes passing Shirlington.  :banghead: Maybe we'll start using US-1 through Old Town. (The Metro is not a good option because the arena now restricts what size bag you can bring in. My briefcase is not allowed, so I drive on gamedays and then stash it in the car. No secure place to leave it at the office.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: abefroman329 on December 14, 2018, 09:54:56 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 14, 2018, 09:52:17 AM
Can't view the sign–it requires a Facebook login
It's a dead link anyway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Roadsguy on December 14, 2018, 09:55:20 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 14, 2018, 09:52:17 AM
Can't view the sign–it requires a Facebook login.

I'm logged in and I can't see it either.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on December 14, 2018, 11:41:57 AM
It's not a dead link.  You have to be friends with CP on Facebook in order to view it.

(This is why I typically don't post Facebook links on this forum).

For Hoo:  it's a side-mounted orange construction sign that says "Road Work Next 7 Miles" with I-295 and DC 295 shields below the writing and www.improving295dc.com on the bottom.  It's more specific location is southbound adjacent to the northernmost of the 3 pedestrian crossings between Eastern and Nannie Helen Burroughs.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: PurdueBill on December 14, 2018, 12:33:25 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 28, 2018, 09:41:39 AM
Closing the loop on the famous I-66 sign bridge, I still haven't driven past there in several months (I've been home sick this week anyway), but I just found this on Wikipedia while looking for something else:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/2018-10-25_13_51_18_View_west_along_Interstate_66_%28Potomac_River_Freeway%29_from_the_overpass_for_Triangle_Park-Virginia_Avenue-New_Hampshire_Avenue-25th_Street_in_Washington%2C_D.C..jpg/800px-thumbnail.jpg)

The following link is to the full-size image: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/2018-10-25_13_51_18_View_west_along_Interstate_66_%28Potomac_River_Freeway%29_from_the_overpass_for_Triangle_Park-Virginia_Avenue-New_Hampshire_Avenue-25th_Street_in_Washington%2C_D.C..jpg

The different rounding on the corners of adjacent signs is noticeable (in a still photo, anyway--maybe not at speed on the road, then again maybe not to most people but probably noticeable to us). 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on December 14, 2018, 01:06:05 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on December 14, 2018, 09:55:20 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 14, 2018, 09:52:17 AM
Can't view the sign–it requires a Facebook login.

I'm logged in and I can't see it either.

Direct link to photo might get around the issue: https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/48208214_10215185723948565_8085114998000451584_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=2371cd7f8f70e6609dd063949800ccf7&oe=5C954D61
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cl94 on December 14, 2018, 01:31:14 PM
Quote from: Alps on December 14, 2018, 01:06:05 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on December 14, 2018, 09:55:20 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 14, 2018, 09:52:17 AM
Can't view the sign–it requires a Facebook login.

I'm logged in and I can't see it either.

Direct link to photo might get around the issue: https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/48208214_10215185723948565_8085114998000451584_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=2371cd7f8f70e6609dd063949800ccf7&oe=5C954D61

Thanks, because I couldn't access the link either - and I AM a friend.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on December 14, 2018, 07:43:49 PM
Quote from: cl94 on December 14, 2018, 01:31:14 PM
Quote from: Alps on December 14, 2018, 01:06:05 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on December 14, 2018, 09:55:20 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 14, 2018, 09:52:17 AM
Can't view the sign–it requires a Facebook login.

I'm logged in and I can't see it either.

Direct link to photo might get around the issue: https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/48208214_10215185723948565_8085114998000451584_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=2371cd7f8f70e6609dd063949800ccf7&oe=5C954D61

Thanks, because I couldn't access the link either - and I AM a friend.
Apparently not. :(
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 16, 2018, 08:22:46 PM
Quote from: Alps on December 14, 2018, 07:43:49 PM
Apparently not. :(

Were you able to access it?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: MNHighwayMan on December 17, 2018, 09:18:35 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 16, 2018, 08:22:46 PM
Quote from: Alps on December 14, 2018, 07:43:49 PM
Apparently not. :(
Were you able to access it?

Here's an Imgur rehost of the image in question, if anyone's still having trouble. I was able to access the second link.

(https://i.imgur.com/INoRv26.jpg)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 05, 2019, 04:58:49 PM
I was walking around a couple days ago, and noticed all the construction between 6 St SW and 4 St SW, south of Independence. Looks like they're installing an Eisenhower Memorial?

I see on Street View, Maryland Ave SW (which used to run through there) once had a rare triple-lane yield (http://bit.ly/2AzxsGJ) where it met Independence (though two + parking most of the time). Not sure I've seen that anywhere else before. Anyone know if Maryland Ave was realigned between 6 and 4 St? Old satellite imagery seems to show an old alignment apparently re-purposed partly for parking.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on January 05, 2019, 10:00:33 PM
^ Based on aerial imagery, the recent (pre-existing-construction) configuration dates back at least to 1964.  While the parking area you're referring to is technically along the street line, it was an add-on that came after westbound Maryland was realigned to come directly off Independence.  There was a time period in between where whatever former pavement existed in the parking area had been obliterated, then rebuilt as a new parking area before 1964.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 05, 2019, 11:33:25 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 05, 2019, 10:00:33 PM
^ Based on aerial imagery, the recent (pre-existing-construction) configuration dates back at least to 1964.  While the parking area you're referring to is technically along the street line, it was an add-on that came after westbound Maryland was realigned to come directly off Independence.  There was a time period in between where whatever former pavement existed in the parking area had been obliterated, then rebuilt as a new parking area before 1964.

Thanks for the info! The way Maryland hits Independence on both sides of 4 St, definitely doesn't seem like a setup that would have been common after the 60s (large paved area, no signal control), so that all makes sense.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on January 06, 2019, 01:35:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2019, 11:33:25 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 05, 2019, 10:00:33 PM
^ Based on aerial imagery, the recent (pre-existing-construction) configuration dates back at least to 1964.  While the parking area you're referring to is technically along the street line, it was an add-on that came after westbound Maryland was realigned to come directly off Independence.  There was a time period in between where whatever former pavement existed in the parking area had been obliterated, then rebuilt as a new parking area before 1964.

Thanks for the info! The way Maryland hits Independence on both sides of 4 St, definitely doesn't seem like a setup that would have been common after the 60s (large paved area, no signal control), so that all makes sense.

As originally laid out (in L'enfant's day), MD-Ind-4 1/2 St was a 6-way intersection in a similar manner to PA-Constitution-4 1/2 St a few blocks to the north.  In both cases, the streets were later simplified to avoid the 6-way intersection to simplify traffic patterns.  For the northern intersection, Constiution was split into two parts with PA being the thru street and the northern section of 4th closed to traffic as part of Judiciary Square.  For the southern intersection, Maryland was split into two parts in order to avoid all 3 streets coming together at the exact same intersection.  At the time this was done, the transportation authority realized that due to the railroad and the capitol, there was very little thru traffic on MD, so some of the excess space in the roadway was relegated to parking.

And now the've closed the whole block south of Independence altogether for the Ike memorial.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on January 06, 2019, 04:31:26 PM
Quote from: mrsman on January 06, 2019, 01:35:13 PM

And now the've closed the whole block south of Independence altogether for the Ike memorial.

A monument I didn't know about until this morning, courtesy of this thread.

Here's a link... http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 07, 2019, 02:36:25 PM
Quote from: mrsman on January 06, 2019, 01:35:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 05, 2019, 11:33:25 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 05, 2019, 10:00:33 PM
^ Based on aerial imagery, the recent (pre-existing-construction) configuration dates back at least to 1964.  While the parking area you're referring to is technically along the street line, it was an add-on that came after westbound Maryland was realigned to come directly off Independence.  There was a time period in between where whatever former pavement existed in the parking area had been obliterated, then rebuilt as a new parking area before 1964.

Thanks for the info! The way Maryland hits Independence on both sides of 4 St, definitely doesn't seem like a setup that would have been common after the 60s (large paved area, no signal control), so that all makes sense.

As originally laid out (in L'enfant's day), MD-Ind-4 1/2 St was a 6-way intersection in a similar manner to PA-Constitution-4 1/2 St a few blocks to the north.  In both cases, the streets were later simplified to avoid the 6-way intersection to simplify traffic patterns.  For the northern intersection, Constiution was split into two parts with PA being the thru street and the northern section of 4th closed to traffic as part of Judiciary Square.  For the southern intersection, Maryland was split into two parts in order to avoid all 3 streets coming together at the exact same intersection.  At the time this was done, the transportation authority realized that due to the railroad and the capitol, there was very little thru traffic on MD, so some of the excess space in the roadway was relegated to parking.

And now the've closed the whole block south of Independence altogether for the Ike memorial.

Thanks for the info. Those six-way intersections definitely worked back when L'Enfant designed them, as they mostly shuttled unorganized horses and people, not cars. I can certainly see why things were changed, especially since DC's lights are all timed, and a six-leg intersection would totally throw off the grid.




I've spotted an issue with the Pennsylvania Ave PBL (so, an error that's been in place since around 2011). When the eastbound left turn signal is activated towards Constitution, the through signal on Pennsylvania is red (http://bit.ly/2Az4o26), despite there not being any conflicting traffic or pedestrians. Because the cycle path uses through-traffic signals, the signal has to be red during the left turns because of the overlap with the cycle path.

They could easily fix this by creating a conflict (i.e. adding a crosswalk on the east side of the intersection), or by adding a bike signal that can run independently. Either way, right now, it's a dumb design, and I've witnessed traffic ignoring the red signal on many occasions (and I can't blame them as there is no conflict).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 07, 2019, 04:33:10 PM
I haven't been able to get a picture of the Memorial Bridge work, but this ran on the Post's website this afternoon. It's interesting to see the draw span structure. Driving over it is a miserable experience right now, though, as is getting to the bridge from Virginia due to lane-closure-related merges.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190307/4cb7167e93403892bd1c7a1a26eb56f9.jpg)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on March 07, 2019, 04:40:11 PM
Is is still a reversible three-lane setup? Was like that back in January, but I won't be back in DC for a couple weeks.

I keenly remember the lanes being uncomfortably narrow.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 07, 2019, 04:47:24 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 07, 2019, 04:40:11 PM
Is is still a reversible three-lane setup? Was like that back in January, but I won't be back in DC for a couple weeks.

I keenly remember the lanes being uncomfortably narrow.

It was as of Washington's Birthday. I assume it still is. I haven't been over it since said holiday.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on March 07, 2019, 08:52:43 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 07, 2019, 04:40:11 PM
Is is still a reversible three-lane setup? Was like that back in January, but I won't be back in DC for a couple weeks.

I keenly remember the lanes being uncomfortably narrow.
All of these are accurate except when i was there, the middle Lane didn't look very reversible.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on March 08, 2019, 02:00:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 07, 2019, 04:47:24 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 07, 2019, 04:40:11 PM
Is is still a reversible three-lane setup? Was like that back in January, but I won't be back in DC for a couple weeks.

I keenly remember the lanes being uncomfortably narrow.

It was as of Washington's Birthday. I assume it still is. I haven't been over it since said holiday.

Thanks. Judging by the schedule I see online (now), it should be in place on the north, and then south side of the bridge, until 2021.

I had thought the draw-span bits had been removed already. Glad I got to drive over it (regularly) before refurbishment, though some of the metal plates in the road (placed during summer time, I think) definitely made it a bumpy ride.

Quote from: Alps on March 07, 2019, 08:52:43 PM
All of these are accurate except when i was there, the middle Lane didn't look very reversible.

It would help if other drivers didn't slightly wander into it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on March 08, 2019, 06:58:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 08, 2019, 02:00:02 PM
Quote from: Alps on March 07, 2019, 08:52:43 PM
All of these are accurate except when i was there, the middle Lane didn't look very reversible.

It would help if other drivers didn't slightly wander into it.
I mean, instead of reversible signals over each lane, they had signs hanging with painted arrows and Xs. For all I know they manually flip them every day, but they looked not like that was a thing.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on March 08, 2019, 10:45:23 PM
Quote from: Alps on March 08, 2019, 06:58:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 08, 2019, 02:00:02 PM
Quote from: Alps on March 07, 2019, 08:52:43 PM
All of these are accurate except when i was there, the middle Lane didn't look very reversible.

It would help if other drivers didn't slightly wander into it.
I mean, instead of reversible signals over each lane, they had signs hanging with painted arrows and Xs. For all I know they manually flip them every day, but they looked not like that was a thing.

I see. Interesting. I know of a couple reversible lanes in DC that operate manually, but the Mem Bridge already had digital signage.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on March 15, 2019, 03:47:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 08, 2019, 10:45:23 PM
Quote from: Alps on March 08, 2019, 06:58:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 08, 2019, 02:00:02 PM
Quote from: Alps on March 07, 2019, 08:52:43 PM
All of these are accurate except when i was there, the middle Lane didn't look very reversible.

It would help if other drivers didn't slightly wander into it.
I mean, instead of reversible signals over each lane, they had signs hanging with painted arrows and Xs. For all I know they manually flip them every day, but they looked not like that was a thing.

I see. Interesting. I know of a couple reversible lanes in DC that operate manually, but the Mem Bridge already had digital signage.

AFAIK, none of the other reversible setups within DC use red X's and green arrows on overhead.  Instead, there are signs that are posted with the restriction and the hours that are posted. 

There are occasional electronic signs that are posted, along the lines of "DO NOT ENTER", "NO LEFT TURN", "USE 3 LANES".  But these aren't nearly as precise.  And IMO, it is downright dangerous around the times when lanes switch over as we can't assume that every driver has the right time.  I've repeatedly noticed very dangerous behavior of cars driving on the wrong lane around 6:30 PM on many of these streets, and in particular along Connecticut Ave.

There are reversible setups along Colesville and Georgia Ave in Silver Spring with electronic red X's and green arrows, but that is in MD, even though it is only about a mile north of the city.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on March 15, 2019, 04:01:57 PM
Westbound Independence, where it turns into Ohio Drive (near the Lincoln Memorial), is the one that throws me off. IIRC, drivers basically swerve around the median at Ohio, to continue northbound towards the Rock Creek/Potomac Pkwy. Street view here: http://bit.ly/2T58wNP
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 15, 2019, 04:42:12 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 15, 2019, 04:01:57 PM
Westbound Independence, where it turns into Ohio Drive (near the Lincoln Memorial), is the one that throws me off. IIRC, drivers basically swerve around the median at Ohio, to continue northbound towards the Rock Creek/Potomac Pkwy. Street view here: http://bit.ly/2T58wNP

In the afternoon, yeah. It's one-way northbound west of that traffic light during the afternoon rush hour and it's easier for thru traffic to move left there because the right lane is blocked by sawhorses to facilitate the merge coming from Memorial Bridge.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on March 15, 2019, 05:27:32 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 15, 2019, 04:42:12 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 15, 2019, 04:01:57 PM
Westbound Independence, where it turns into Ohio Drive (near the Lincoln Memorial), is the one that throws me off. IIRC, drivers basically swerve around the median at Ohio, to continue northbound towards the Rock Creek/Potomac Pkwy. Street view here: http://bit.ly/2T58wNP

In the afternoon, yeah. It's one-way northbound west of that traffic light during the afternoon rush hour and it's easier for thru traffic to move left there because the right lane is blocked by sawhorses to facilitate the merge coming from Memorial Bridge.

I have to admire the amount of efforts that the NPS does to implement reversible lanes on Rock Creek Parkway and Canal Road.  But these are very labor intensive, requiring crews to change signs and put up barricades 4 times a day.  But it does keep traffic flowing.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on March 16, 2019, 12:10:31 PM
I am perhaps more surprised that an electronic method of closing the road hasn't yet been implemented. Don't ask me how to do that, but if these one-way systems are so important to traffic, you'd think they'd find a way to get them to operate more like a regular road. Which is to say, with more autonomy.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 16, 2019, 12:49:21 PM
Quote from: mrsman on March 15, 2019, 05:27:32 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 15, 2019, 04:42:12 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 15, 2019, 04:01:57 PM
Westbound Independence, where it turns into Ohio Drive (near the Lincoln Memorial), is the one that throws me off. IIRC, drivers basically swerve around the median at Ohio, to continue northbound towards the Rock Creek/Potomac Pkwy. Street view here: http://bit.ly/2T58wNP

In the afternoon, yeah. It's one-way northbound west of that traffic light during the afternoon rush hour and it's easier for thru traffic to move left there because the right lane is blocked by sawhorses to facilitate the merge coming from Memorial Bridge.

I have to admire the amount of efforts that the NPS does to implement reversible lanes on Rock Creek Parkway and Canal Road.  But these are very labor intensive, requiring crews to change signs and put up barricades 4 times a day.  But it does keep traffic flowing.

They also move sawhorses and cones around on the other side of Memorial Bridge, or at least they do when it's not under construction. The idea is that during the morning rush hour people coming up VA-27 (and its extension to the bridge) are forced to go over the bridge rather than locking up the circle at the yield signs. One big problem is, the tour bus drivers think the barriers don't apply to them: I've seen bus drivers stop their buses to get out and move the sawhorses, or alternatively they just drive over the orange cones, in order to go around the circle to Arlington Cemetery instead of going over the bridge as the barriers are intended to require them to do. Then once the sawhorses and cones are out of place (because the bus drivers refuse to put them back), other drivers think they're entitled to go that way too.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on March 16, 2019, 11:03:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 16, 2019, 12:10:31 PM
I am perhaps more surprised that an electronic method of closing the road hasn't yet been implemented. Don't ask me how to do that, but if these one-way systems are so important to traffic, you'd think they'd find a way to get them to operate more like a regular road. Which is to say, with more autonomy.
I think part of it is the nps wants to keep a rustic feel to the parkways.  It may also explain the lack of signals at major intersections, like at I-66 at independence.



Nexus 5X

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on March 16, 2019, 11:35:26 PM
Quote from: mrsman on March 16, 2019, 11:03:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 16, 2019, 12:10:31 PM
I am perhaps more surprised that an electronic method of closing the road hasn't yet been implemented. Don't ask me how to do that, but if these one-way systems are so important to traffic, you'd think they'd find a way to get them to operate more like a regular road. Which is to say, with more autonomy.
I think part of it is the nps wants to keep a rustic feel to the parkways.  It may also explain the lack of signals at major intersections, like at I-66 at independence.

I could understand that.

I do see that stop sign going southbound towards Ohio Drive from I-66[/size]...I'm guessing that's the one you're talking about? I don't think I've bothered to notice that before. I almost always access the District via the Memorial Bridge.

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 16, 2019, 12:49:21 PM
One big problem is, the tour bus drivers think the barriers don't apply to them: I've seen bus drivers stop their buses to get out and move the sawhorses, or alternatively they just drive over the orange cones, in order to go around the circle to Arlington Cemetery instead of going over the bridge as the barriers are intended to require them to do. Then once the sawhorses and cones are out of place (because the bus drivers refuse to put them back), other drivers think they're entitled to go that way too.

This sounds entirely plausible, based on what I've seen! I don't drive much during rush hour, but the sawhorses have thrown me off a couple times at Memorial Circle, but mostly because I don't much go through there when they're normally up.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on April 04, 2019, 01:21:33 PM
The District has an effort underway to clean up erroneous and confusing signs and they're asking people to tweet them in using hashtag #GoodSignDC through April 15. I've sent in the two below but will refrain from sending in some of our remaining favorites like the I-95 sign under the L'Enfant Promenade.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3RXJ6PXkAAF6lt?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3UNvYYXoAAcv32?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on April 25, 2019, 08:15:02 PM
Major changes to K Street downtown coming:

https://wtop.com/dc/2019/04/dcs-mayor-wants-big-changes-on-k-street/slide/1/

QuoteThe biggest change would be the creation of a dedicated bus way in the middle of the road. Taking the two existing far left lanes right down the middle, the bus lanes would allow buses to move down K Street between 12th and Washington Circle without the constraints the current turn lanes impose.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on April 25, 2019, 10:51:04 PM
Seems like a solid plan. If it proves popular, they might even make the case for an extension of the streetcar! The current layout of K Street continues to confuse me. I'm sure I've made more than a few illegal turns in my time. Something to simplify things would be nice.

Knowing DC drivers, my two questions are as follows:

1) how will they stop drivers from driving down the busway?
2) how will they stop drivers from turning left against a red arrow? Assuming the buses go with through traffic.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on May 18, 2019, 12:23:27 PM
How about reinstalling US route trailblazers so people know where the three US routes run.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on May 18, 2019, 05:21:49 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 18, 2019, 12:23:27 PM
How about reinstalling US route trailblazers so people know where the three US routes run.
Not always sure even DC knows where they run!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 18, 2019, 05:59:52 PM
Quote from: Alps on May 18, 2019, 05:21:49 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 18, 2019, 12:23:27 PM
How about reinstalling US route trailblazers so people know where the three US routes run.
Not always sure even DC knows where they run!

They probably don't:

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 29, 2016, 01:48:16 PM
Northbound on New Hampshire Avenue NW in DC between 20 Street and Dupont Circle. This isn't on Street View yet. Picture taken this afternoon.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FC243DE13-A3F8-4CFF-88B4-D895AEC13B93_zpsufawbwiu.jpg&hash=9295c20c17cb4468ae3c7553e7c34e412f44958a)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on May 18, 2019, 06:00:52 PM
29 is properly signed (and newer signs than what Hoo just posted).  Though signs for the southbound turn from 7th to Rhode Island can be confusing due to the proximity of R Street.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 17, 2019, 11:25:38 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 18, 2019, 06:00:52 PM
29 is properly signed (and newer signs than what Hoo just posted).  Though signs for the southbound turn from 7th to Rhode Island can be confusing due to the proximity of R Street.
The sign denying the left turn from eastbound Rhode Island to northbound 7th Street, N.W. has disappeared for some reason.

There's no signage at all on eastbound Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. telling drivers when to make a left to follow U.S. 29  north toward Maryland.  When the left from Rhode Island eastbound to northbound 7th was denied by sign, then I presume the intent was to make a left onto 6th Street, N.W. to another left to Florida Avenue, N.W. westbound to a right onto 7th Street N.W.  (but I doubt that this part of Florida Avenue has capacity for such traffic).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on July 18, 2019, 02:35:39 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 17, 2019, 11:25:38 PM
There's no signage at all on eastbound Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. telling drivers when to make a left to follow U.S. 29  north toward Maryland.  When the left from Rhode Island eastbound to northbound 7th was denied by sign, then I presume the intent was to make a left onto 6th Street, N.W. to another left to Florida Avenue, N.W. westbound to a right onto 7th Street N.W.  (but I doubt that this part of Florida Avenue has capacity for such traffic).

Has this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/oN2gEkFuK26zWa2p7) been removed (just a block away at 6 St NW)? It does say to turn left at 6 St, and there is another sign at Florida Ave (https://goo.gl/maps/zS15XiagTboVGDuN6) telling drivers to turn left, again. Annoyingly, there is no final sign when you get back to 7 St.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 18, 2019, 06:50:50 AM
^ That's a relatively newer sign, too, on eastbound R.I. at 6th.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 19, 2019, 03:26:58 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 18, 2019, 02:35:39 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 17, 2019, 11:25:38 PM
There's no signage at all on eastbound Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. telling drivers when to make a left to follow U.S. 29  north toward Maryland.  When the left from Rhode Island eastbound to northbound 7th was denied by sign, then I presume the intent was to make a left onto 6th Street, N.W. to another left to Florida Avenue, N.W. westbound to a right onto 7th Street N.W.  (but I doubt that this part of Florida Avenue has capacity for such traffic).

Has this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/oN2gEkFuK26zWa2p7) been removed (just a block away at 6 St NW)? It does say to turn left at 6 St, and there is another sign at Florida Ave (https://goo.gl/maps/zS15XiagTboVGDuN6) telling drivers to turn left, again. Annoyingly, there is no final sign when you get back to 7 St.

I did not look for those but will the next time I am by there. 

There is a similar (in appearance and vintage) sign on westbound Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. at 11th Street telling drivers that want to follow U.S. 29 south to make a left there.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: epzik8 on July 19, 2019, 05:50:32 PM
What do you guys know about the DC-295 Anacostia Freeway?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on July 19, 2019, 06:44:04 PM
Quote from: epzik8 on July 19, 2019, 05:50:32 PM
What do you guys know about the DC-295 Anacostia Freeway?
It's a road. What's the question?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on July 20, 2019, 12:57:45 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 18, 2019, 02:35:39 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 17, 2019, 11:25:38 PM
There's no signage at all on eastbound Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. telling drivers when to make a left to follow U.S. 29  north toward Maryland.  When the left from Rhode Island eastbound to northbound 7th was denied by sign, then I presume the intent was to make a left onto 6th Street, N.W. to another left to Florida Avenue, N.W. westbound to a right onto 7th Street N.W.  (but I doubt that this part of Florida Avenue has capacity for such traffic).

Has this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/oN2gEkFuK26zWa2p7) been removed (just a block away at 6 St NW)? It does say to turn left at 6 St, and there is another sign at Florida Ave (https://goo.gl/maps/zS15XiagTboVGDuN6) telling drivers to turn left, again. Annoyingly, there is no final sign when you get back to 7 St.
Odd that US 29 has even a shield there.  US 1 has hardly any left and none at that particular intersection being US 1 replaces US 29 after it turns there.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 20, 2019, 09:59:33 AM
Quote from: epzik8 on July 19, 2019, 05:50:32 PM
What do you guys know about the DC-295 Anacostia Freeway?

An odd question.

It's a stretch of a freeway between Anacostia and NY Ave. South of Anacostia, the freeway is I-295, north of NY Ave, it's the BW Parkway.

If you travel from Oxon Hill to Baltimore, you travel on all three "routes" (I-295, DC-295, and BW Parkway) without exiting once.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 20, 2019, 10:08:24 AM
Speaking of 295, I guess the provisional 40 MPH speed limit is throwing people off: https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2019/07/drivers-still-taken-aback-by-lower-speed-limit-on-i-295/

Slated to be 40 MPH through 2021. Is that a record low for a signed Interstate speed limit?

Ironically, I doubt if I ever get above 40 MPH even in the absence of construction zones. That's a tough road to drive.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 20, 2019, 10:49:35 AM
^ No, there are occasional lower limits.  For example, I-264 in Norfolk through the Downtown Tunnel and across the Berkeley Bridge is 35 MPH.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on July 20, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
I-295 in Bellmawr, NJ had a 35 mph for the longest time approaching NJ 42- I-76.  That was not even an advisory speed either it was posted right after the SB roadway exits itself to loop around to cross under the dangerously dark long underpass under the ultra wide N-S Freeway.

The new construction project there should eliminate that one whenever they get it done.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on July 20, 2019, 12:41:17 PM
40 mph is not unprecedented for interstates.  I'm pretty sure I-395 and I-695 in DC were already there (with 35 on part of I-395).  I-490 through downtown Rochester is also 40.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 20, 2019, 05:56:10 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 20, 2019, 12:41:17 PM
40 mph is not unprecedented for interstates.  I'm pretty sure I-395 and I-695 in DC were already there (with 35 on part of I-395).  I-490 through downtown Rochester is also 40.

There's definitely a 35-mph segment on I-395 northbound heading down to the Third Street Tunnel. I-695 is mostly posted at 45 now, BTW. Either Mayor Gray or Mayor Bowser ordered it increased to 45. Some members of the DC Council weren't happy about that.

I think, but I'm not positive, there either is or used to be a 40-mph section of I-68 through Cumberland.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on July 20, 2019, 06:42:09 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 20, 2019, 05:56:10 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 20, 2019, 12:41:17 PM
40 mph is not unprecedented for interstates.  I'm pretty sure I-395 and I-695 in DC were already there (with 35 on part of I-395).  I-490 through downtown Rochester is also 40.

There's definitely a 35-mph segment on I-395 northbound heading down to the Third Street Tunnel. I-695 is mostly posted at 45 now, BTW. Either Mayor Gray or Mayor Bowser ordered it increased to 45. Some members of the DC Council weren't happy about that.

I think, but I'm not positive, there either is or used to be a 40-mph section of I-68 through Cumberland.
Yes, the section through Cumberland is 40. As it needs to be given the poor design.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on July 20, 2019, 10:14:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 20, 2019, 05:56:10 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 20, 2019, 12:41:17 PM
40 mph is not unprecedented for interstates.  I'm pretty sure I-395 and I-695 in DC were already there (with 35 on part of I-395).  I-490 through downtown Rochester is also 40.
There's definitely a 35-mph segment on I-395 northbound heading down to the Third Street Tunnel.

That would be the ramps between the Southwest/Southeast Freeway and Center Leg Freeway.

Granted it carries I-395 thru the interchange, and originally carried I-95, but those are technically ramps and not mainline.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on July 21, 2019, 08:44:17 PM
Quote from: Beltway on July 20, 2019, 10:14:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 20, 2019, 05:56:10 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 20, 2019, 12:41:17 PM
40 mph is not unprecedented for interstates.  I'm pretty sure I-395 and I-695 in DC were already there (with 35 on part of I-395).  I-490 through downtown Rochester is also 40.
There's definitely a 35-mph segment on I-395 northbound heading down to the Third Street Tunnel.

That would be the ramps between the Southwest/Southeast Freeway and Center Leg Freeway.

Granted it carries I-395 thru the interchange, and originally carried I-95, but those are technically ramps and not mainline.
It was 35 through the tunnel too when I last drove on it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 22, 2019, 08:18:39 AM
Work zone speed limit, assuming you've driven it in the past 2 years.  It's normally 45 through the 3rd Street Tunnel.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on July 22, 2019, 09:37:12 AM
Quote from: froggie on July 22, 2019, 08:18:39 AM
Work zone speed limit, assuming you've driven it in the past 2 years.  It's normally 45 through the 3rd Street Tunnel.

Even then, it is not a thru highway, but ends less than a mile north of there.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 23, 2019, 06:26:23 PM
Quote from: Beltway on July 20, 2019, 10:14:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 20, 2019, 05:56:10 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 20, 2019, 12:41:17 PM
40 mph is not unprecedented for interstates.  I'm pretty sure I-395 and I-695 in DC were already there (with 35 on part of I-395).  I-490 through downtown Rochester is also 40.
There's definitely a 35-mph segment on I-395 northbound heading down to the Third Street Tunnel.

That would be the ramps between the Southwest/Southeast Freeway and Center Leg Freeway.

Granted it carries I-395 thru the interchange, and originally carried I-95, but those are technically ramps and not mainline.

I view it as a regular speed limit, however, because it's signed with white "Speed Limit 35" signs rather than the yellow advisory speed signs one normally sees on ramps.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on October 22, 2019, 01:12:35 PM
Could someone explain to me why they call it the "Third Street Tunnel" when its closer to going under Second Street (if there was still a Second Street at that point)?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on October 25, 2019, 04:31:55 PM
Quote from: famartin on October 22, 2019, 01:12:35 PM
Could someone explain to me why they call it the "Third Street Tunnel" when its closer to going under Second Street (if there was still a Second Street at that point)?

I believe it's because many of the entrances to the tunnel (Mass Ave, D St.) are along 3rd street in Downtown.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on October 25, 2019, 04:43:53 PM
Quote from: mrsman on October 25, 2019, 04:31:55 PM
Quote from: famartin on October 22, 2019, 01:12:35 PM
Could someone explain to me why they call it the "Third Street Tunnel" when its closer to going under Second Street (if there was still a Second Street at that point)?
I believe it's because many of the entrances to the tunnel (Mass Ave, D St.) are along 3rd street in Downtown.
3rd Street NW and SW runs the whole length of the Center Leg Freeway corridor.

2nd Street does not cross the Mall.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: noelbotevera on October 27, 2019, 12:25:11 AM
I plan on watching The Irishmen sometime in early November (Nov. 8th or Nov. 14th - a Friday and a Thursday, depending on how my dad's schedule works out). The closest cinema to me offering it is Landmark's E Street Cinema by the Ford's Theatre. I'm coming from I-270 in the northwest, and I'm likely arriving sometime during rush hour. So, what's the best way of getting across DC?

Well, here was my thoughts:

Beltway -> Clara Barton Pkwy/River Road -> Whitehurst Freeway/K St -> 11th Street
Disadvantages: Clara Barton Parkway has one way restrictions. According to Wikipedia, I'm forced off at Glen Echo, so the best way would have to take MacArthur Boulevard which parallels the Parkway at the expense of traffic signals

Beltway -> George Washington Parkway -> I-395 -> 12th Street Expressway
Disadvantages: The 14th Street Bridge is a significant bottleneck.

G.W. Parkway -> Arlington Memorial -> Independence Avenue -> ???
Disadvantages: Crossing the National Mall. Traffic lights on Independence would likely screw something up.

Straight shot via Wisconsin or Connecticut Avenue (via exit 1 on I-270/exit at the end of I-270)
Disadvantages: Traffic lights, possible suburbs traffic?

Suggestions would be appreciated. To avoid time constraints as much as possible, I'll assume that it'll take 3 hours to reach DC. Another possibility would be to use Metro (catch it at Shady Grove), but that's just as uncertain as driving in.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 27, 2019, 07:37:46 AM
When I lived there 30 years ago, I would have parked at Shady Grove Metro and take the Red Line in.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on October 27, 2019, 07:53:08 AM
If you're going to downtown D.C. from out of town, doing battle with the D.C. region rush hour is insane. I-270 => I-370 => Shady Grove Metro to downtown is the way to go. Metro has its issues, but not nearly as bad as the highways inside the Beltway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on October 27, 2019, 08:45:07 AM
Quote from: ARMOURERERIC on October 27, 2019, 07:37:46 AM
When I lived there 30 years ago, I would have parked at Shady Grove Metro and take the Red Line in.

The Red Line's nearest stop to Landmark's is Metro Center at 12th and G NW.

https://www.wmata.com/schedules/trip-planner/#main-content

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 27, 2019, 10:13:54 AM
I'd probably just take the Metro, as others suggest. Remember each person needs his own SmarTrip card–you can't share a card like you can in New York. Also remember one of the cards will need the parking fee loaded because you can't pay cash at the garage exit. Do not stand on the left side of the Metro escalators–stand single-file on the right if you aren't going to walk.

The 12th and F exit from Metro Center is moderately closer than 12th and G, but I think the easiest one to use is probably 11th and G because you can easily use that one to exit and to re-enter later. When you get off the inbound Red Line, this exit is the one located close to the front of the train (make a left as you exit the train unless you're riding all the way at the front). When you come out at street level, just go straight ahead for two blocks and make a left on E. The cinema is on your left. But be aware there are a lot of panhandlers and bums around that Metro exit because it's sheltered under the corner of the Woodies building. (I say this exit is easy for the return trip because the Red Line is on the upper level at Metro Center and has side platforms. If you re-enter at 12th and F, you'll need to go down to the lower level to pass under the Red Line and come back up on the far side in order to be on the correct platform. Not a huge issue, but it's easier just to enter via a different route and avoid the issue.)

BTW, most of Metro's signs list the streets in the wrong order. People here almost always put the numbered street first when referring to a location or giving directions, but for some reason Metro's signage people think the lettered street goes first ("F & 12th" instead of the standard "12th & F," for example). Not a big deal; I mention it just in case you use the platform signs for guidance so you aren't thrown off by the signs having it in the wrong order.

If you must drive into the city, note you don't necessarily want to park right near the cinema, depending on your schedule, as many downtown garages close by 7:00. The closest parking to that cinema is probably 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue. You enter from 10th Street across from the FBI and it's self-park. The garage is open late, too (I've parked there when we took my father to dinner at Central for his birthday). That's a good garage. Another good one is about a four-block walk up 11th Street, the City Center garage (this is where I usually park these days when I drive)–it's massive, it's open 24/7, and it has those nice red and green lights to help you spot empty spaces. You simply walk straight down 11th Street to E and make a left and the cinema is there. (When I drive, I turn into the garage from 11th just north of H. Note when you leave via that same ramp there is no left turn.)

There is also a garage next to Ford's Theatre that's open late. One of our Caps ticket-sharing partners uses it. I know it's valet during the day and self-park later, but I don't know when the switchover occurs. I generally don't park there because I don't know what the hours are for that–when I drive in, it's usually because we have a game that night and I don't want to leave my keys with a valet when I won't be back to the car until 10 PM (well, I hate valet parking anyway and try never to use it as it is). I don't want to have to track down an employee later at night when there's more traffic trying to exit.

Regarding routing: The Clara Barton Parkway and Canal Road both have one-way segments during rush hour. You don't want to use MacArthur Boulevard, which has a lot of lights and also has speed cameras. Memorial Bridge to Independence Avenue isn't a bad route except the bridge is under major construction and the traffic circle at the "Virginia" end (it's actually in DC) is a bad spot if you don't know the area well–traffic on the circle must yield to entering traffic and it's easy to get stuck at rush hour if you're not very aggressive in forcing your way into traffic. If you do use that route, the best place to turn left from Independence to get across the Mall is 15th Street because there is a green arrow there. I'm pretty sure left turns are illegal at 14th, and I'm also pretty sure there's no turn arrow at 12th. You don't want to go all the way down to 7th.

If you come down the GW Parkway, you could go across the Roosevelt Bridge and up Constitution Avenue, but note that tends to be slow from 19th Street to at least 15th. (Also be careful at 18th because a lot of people illegally go straight from the left-turn-only lane.) I'd turn left at 15th because there are two turn lanes with green arrows, but note that it's a short green arrow made shorter by red-light runners on 15th beginning their left turns after the light has changed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 27, 2019, 12:40:51 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on October 27, 2019, 12:25:11 AM
I plan on watching The Irishmen sometime in early November (Nov. 8th or Nov. 14th - a Friday and a Thursday, depending on how my dad's schedule works out). The closest cinema to me offering it is Landmark's E Street Cinema by the Ford's Theatre. I'm coming from I-270 in the northwest, and I'm likely arriving sometime during rush hour. So, what's the best way of getting across DC?

Well, here was my thoughts:

Beltway -> Clara Barton Pkwy/River Road -> Whitehurst Freeway/K St -> 11th Street
Disadvantages: Clara Barton Parkway has one way restrictions. According to Wikipedia, I'm forced off at Glen Echo, so the best way would have to take MacArthur Boulevard which parallels the Parkway at the expense of traffic signals

Clara Barton Parkway and most of Canal Road, N.W. from Glen Echo in Maryland to Foxhall Road, N.W. runs one-way in the opposite direction weekdays (toward Glen Echo) from 2:45 PM to about 7:00 PM).

Quote
Beltway -> George Washington Parkway -> I-395 -> 12th Street Expressway
Disadvantages: The 14th Street Bridge is a significant bottleneck.

George Washington Memorial Parkway southbound approaching I-395 can be extremely congested in the afternoons.

Quote
G.W. Parkway -> Arlington Memorial -> Independence Avenue -> ???
Disadvantages: Crossing the National Mall. Traffic lights on Independence would likely screw something up.

Arlington Memorial Bridge is under reconstruction, with only one lane in the off-peak direction open.

Quote
Straight shot via Wisconsin or Connecticut Avenue (via exit 1 on I-270/exit at the end of I-270)
Disadvantages: Traffic lights, possible suburbs traffic?

Lots of traffic signals.

Quote
Suggestions would be appreciated. To avoid time constraints as much as possible, I'll assume that it'll take 3 hours to reach DC. Another possibility would be to use Metro (catch it at Shady Grove), but that's just as uncertain as driving in.

Metro might be the best bet here. 

Also, it is difficult and expensive finding a place to park in the downtown area of D.C.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 27, 2019, 01:13:50 PM
Forgot to mention: Verizon Center is a couple of blocks from the E Street Cinema. The Capitals aren't at home on the dates you noted, but the Bullets have a home game on November 8 and Georgetown basketball plays there on November 14. Some parking garages may be busier as a result. Don't even think about using the Gallery Place garage over by the arena because they'll charge an "event rate"  of $35 (at least for the Bullets game, anyway).

The garages on 8th Street between G and H are not good options either because the street is too narrow and has stop signs at both ends of the block–very difficult getting out of there if there's an event at the arena.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: KEVIN_224 on October 27, 2019, 07:09:42 PM
I think you meant Wizards for the NBA.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 27, 2019, 07:29:58 PM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on October 27, 2019, 07:09:42 PM
I think you meant Wizards for the NBA.

No, I meant Bullets. They might call themselves by the racist name you mentioned, but they've never done anything to distinguish themselves from all those mediocre Bullets teams when I was growing up around here (and I'm just a little too young to remember their lone championship).

Besides, Nils Lofgren hasn't recorded "Wizards Fever" !!!  :bigass:
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on October 28, 2019, 05:16:37 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 27, 2019, 07:29:58 PM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on October 27, 2019, 07:09:42 PM
I think you meant Wizards for the NBA.

No, I meant Bullets. They might call themselves by the racist name you mentioned, but they've never done anything to distinguish themselves from all those mediocre Bullets teams when I was growing up around here (and I'm just a little too young to remember their lone championship).

Besides, Nils Lofgren hasn't recorded "Wizards Fever" !!!  :bigass:

I use "Wizards" myself (and I still call MiLB's Reading [PA] Fightin Phils the "Reading Phillies"), but "Wizards" doesn't have the attitude of "Bullets".

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 28, 2019, 08:03:51 PM
"Wizards"  is a dumb name for a team in a heavily black sport with a heavily black fan base in a heavily black city, given the use of "wizard"  by the Klan.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on October 28, 2019, 08:10:09 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 28, 2019, 08:03:51 PM
"Wizards"  is a dumb name for a team in a heavily black sport with a heavily black fan base in a heavily black city, given the use of "wizard"  by the Klan.

I'm not sure that relating a heavily-black sport with gun terminology is necessarily wise, either.

Both names suck.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on October 28, 2019, 08:48:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 28, 2019, 08:03:51 PM
"Wizards"  is a dumb name for a team in a heavily black sport with a heavily black fan base in a heavily black city, given the use of "wizard"  by the Klan.

Wizards are involved with witchcraft, which means that they traffic with the Demons of Hell.

Isaiah 8:19-20
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto spiritists and unto wizards that peep and that mutter; shall the people not seek unto their God?  Shall we appeal for the living unto the dead?  To the law and to the testimony!  If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Not a good team name.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on October 28, 2019, 09:35:38 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 28, 2019, 08:48:51 PM
Wizards are involved with witchcraft, which means that they traffic with the Demons of Hell.

Isaiah 8:19-20
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto spiritists and unto wizards that peep and that mutter; shall the people not seek unto their God?  Shall we appeal for the living unto the dead?  To the law and to the testimony!  If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Not a good team name.

:rolleyes:

That said, a few of the folks on freerepublic.com would probably agree with you.

Even if every denomination poses as the one true Christianity.

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on October 28, 2019, 09:57:40 PM
The now-late owner who changed the name was Jewish, so I doubt it bothered him much
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on October 28, 2019, 11:30:32 PM
Aaaaaaaand let's get back to roads.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Henry on October 30, 2019, 10:03:17 AM
Quote from: oscar on October 27, 2019, 07:53:08 AM
If you're going to downtown D.C. from out of town, doing battle with the D.C. region rush hour is insane. I-270 => I-370 => Shady Grove Metro to downtown is the way to go. Metro has its issues, but not nearly as bad as the highways inside the Beltway.
I agree, it's better to take the Metro into town than try to drive through that notorious traffic.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: KEVIN_224 on October 31, 2019, 06:24:16 PM
Now you'll have the Nationals parade on Saturday at 2 PM ET. METRO will surely be fun that day! :)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on November 01, 2019, 07:20:23 AM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on October 31, 2019, 06:24:16 PM
Now you'll have the Nationals parade on Saturday at 2 PM ET. METRO will surely be fun that day! :)

He said they were looking at November 8 or 14.

"Metro"  is not an acronym, BTW. No such thing as "METRO."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: KEVIN_224 on November 01, 2019, 03:43:55 PM
I've been told that before. You are right. I've always spelled it out in capital letters. Now I know that MBTA in greater Boston IS an acronym! :)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on November 01, 2019, 04:49:54 PM
WMATA, however, is indeed an acronym
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on November 01, 2019, 09:17:37 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on November 01, 2019, 04:49:54 PM
WMATA, however, is indeed an acronym

wuhmatuh
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on November 01, 2019, 10:00:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 01, 2019, 09:17:37 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on November 01, 2019, 04:49:54 PM
WMATA, however, is indeed an acronym
wuhmatuh

Yeah, wuh-mah-tuh is how many people pronounce that.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: KEVIN_224 on November 02, 2019, 03:47:18 PM
How has traffic been today with the parade for the Washington Nationals? I'm sure METRO will be happy. :)

(P.S. Portland, ME has their METRO city bus system. That's not an acronym either. Like with DC, I've always wrote it that way.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on November 02, 2019, 05:30:05 PM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on November 02, 2019, 03:47:18 PM
How has traffic been today with the parade for the Washington Nationals? I'm sure METRO will be happy. :)

(P.S. Portland, ME has their METRO city bus system. That's not an acronym either. Like with DC, I've always wrote it that way.)

Not sure, as I took the Yellow Line in and out from the city (Archives station on the way in, L'Enfant Plaza on the way out).

There were a lot of downtown road closures, and the staging area for the parade was the Mall. To extent that I saw much of anything, it seems that maybe some of the garages around the L'Enfant Plaza area had an uptick in volume, which makes sense (right off 395, south of the Mall).

I think a lot of people took Metro though; crowding at the Archives station was so much that our train operator held the doors when we arrived, as there was a backlog of people exiting the station, and they didn't want the platforms overflowing (Archives is a low-capacity station with a single escalator complex on an island platform).

Overhearing chatter on the Metro, I got the vibe that a decent amount of folks were from the outer suburbs/exurbs (e.g. Fredericksburg), and were taking Metro in from the very end of the system. One young boy asked his father if the river we were going over (the Potomac) was the Rappohanack.

Also, you could tell a lot of the riders today were infrequent riders. For instance, one woman on board the Yellow Line asked us when the Federal Triangle stop would show up. I told her just to follow the crowds in Nats gear. I had the suspicion that a lot of people were riding for the first time ever, or in an extremely rare situation...there was also a lot of activity at exit fare machines (cash only!)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on November 03, 2019, 06:50:21 PM
Wasn't sure whether this should go on the thread, or the NOVA HOT lanes thread. But the middle span of the 14th St bridge (Rochambeau Bridge) has been closed all weekend, and it looks like workers are installing an information screen (for southbound) and then typical exit signage on the opposite side (for northbound). If there are any serious plans to HOT the SE/SW freeway, they've definitely got the facilitating infrastructure in place.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on November 05, 2019, 12:40:32 PM
Driving into the city on Sunday for the Caps game, I noticed most of the signs that said "Verizon Center"  have been updated to say "Capital One Arena"  using greenout and blueout (the latter on a blue sign on the ramp to 12th Street). It's pretty much hideous in every case because they had to cram the new, longer name into the same amount of space as the old name. The patches don't match the main signs' shades of green, either.

I wonder if there's some generic descriptor that would work better. "Sports Arena"  isn't necessarily specific enough.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on November 05, 2019, 03:59:22 PM
I noticed those. They're really bad...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on February 12, 2020, 05:58:04 PM
https://twitter.com/adamtuss/status/1227636478517415936?s=21
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Beltway on February 12, 2020, 09:13:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 12, 2020, 05:58:04 PM
This is what the bridge will eventually look like
OCEA City!

Outstanding Civil Engineering Achievement (OCEA) Award of 2008 went to the Woodrow Wilson Bridge Project.

https://www.asce.org/oceakit/?all_recipients=1
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on February 13, 2020, 12:46:20 AM
Really interesting to see two new "traffic ovals" being built as part of this project. These have to be the first new ones in many, many years, no?

At any rate, I think it's a fantastic opportunity for two new plazas. Great stuff.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: VTGoose on February 13, 2020, 09:28:58 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 12, 2020, 05:58:04 PM
https://twitter.com/adamtuss/status/1227636478517415936?s=21

For some reason, "Puff the Magic Dragon" comes to mind in looking at the three humps of the completed bridge. Maybe they should paint it green.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on February 14, 2020, 08:36:31 AM
Quote from: VTGoose on February 13, 2020, 09:28:58 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 12, 2020, 05:58:04 PM
https://twitter.com/adamtuss/status/1227636478517415936?s=21

For some reason, "Puff the Magic Dragon" comes to mind in looking at the three humps of the completed bridge. Maybe they should paint it green.

You mean Chessie is too big for the Anacostia?

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 29, 2020, 05:05:10 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/dc-speed-limit-cut/2020/05/29/3be40f74-36ee-11ea-9541-9107303481a4_story.html

QuoteThe default speed limit on the streets of the District will drop to 20 mph from 25 mph beginning Monday, Mayor Muriel E. Bowser (D) announced Friday, taking a bold step in implementing her centerpiece plan to reduce pedestrian deaths in the nation's capital.

....

Bowser also announced a "slow streets"  initiative through which some neighborhood roads will be restricted to local traffic only and have a posted 15 mph speed limit. The District Department of Transportation is identifying locations, Bowser said.

While those roads will not be closed to other traffic, Bowser said, the city will place barriers and signage about the restrictions so that drivers know they should not cut through.

As the city begins to reopen after two months of coronavirus restrictions, Bowser said it is reimagining its roadways to support businesses. The city will issue permits to restaurants to use sidewalks, and possibly for parking and travel lanes to expand their dining space, officials said.

How long do you think it'll be before they rush to place extra speed cameras on streets with newly-lowered speed limits?




BTW, regarding VPIGoose's comment about Puff the Magic Dragon, I suppose recreational weed IS tolerated by the DC government....
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 01, 2020, 10:57:03 AM
Sign replacement work on I-395 this week. If you like button copy, get over there ASAP before the existing signs come down: https://ddot.dc.gov/page/i-395-sign-structure-improvement-project

They don't mention the two ancient signs on the ramp leading to the 12th Street Tunnel, but I have to assume those are not going to survive much longer.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on June 01, 2020, 02:23:51 PM
I wonder if they'll convert I-395 to mileage-based numbers.  They seem to have started (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8852229,-77.0128625,3a,15.6y,158.75h,96.03t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sg_1BsyDdgMGaqPMJ2uy0UQ!2e0!5s20140701T000000!7i13312!8i6656) a few years ago before reverting the change (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.885228,-77.0128681,3a,25.3y,160.83h,95.25t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVNG-ILjLtzlCfv1lz5K4Tw!2e0!5s20181001T000000!7i16384!8i8192).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 01, 2020, 02:36:19 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 01, 2020, 02:23:51 PM
I wonder if they'll convert I-395 to mileage-based numbers.  They seem to have started (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8852229,-77.0128625,3a,15.6y,158.75h,96.03t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sg_1BsyDdgMGaqPMJ2uy0UQ!2e0!5s20140701T000000!7i13312!8i6656) a few years ago before reverting the change (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.885228,-77.0128681,3a,25.3y,160.83h,95.25t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVNG-ILjLtzlCfv1lz5K4Tw!2e0!5s20181001T000000!7i16384!8i8192).

The potential difficulty with that is the number of exits there are. I-395 has roughly 3.4 miles in DC. There are four exits within the first 1.2 miles alone. I think there are a total of ten exits, though I may be miscounting. It's one place where using sequential numbers is probably easier.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 01, 2020, 02:42:23 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 01, 2020, 02:36:19 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 01, 2020, 02:23:51 PM
I wonder if they'll convert I-395 to mileage-based numbers.  They seem to have started (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8852229,-77.0128625,3a,15.6y,158.75h,96.03t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sg_1BsyDdgMGaqPMJ2uy0UQ!2e0!5s20140701T000000!7i13312!8i6656) a few years ago before reverting the change (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.885228,-77.0128681,3a,25.3y,160.83h,95.25t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVNG-ILjLtzlCfv1lz5K4Tw!2e0!5s20181001T000000!7i16384!8i8192).

The potential difficulty with that is the number of exits there are. I-395 has roughly 3.4 miles in DC. There are four exits within the first 1.2 miles alone. I think there are a total of ten exits, though I may be miscounting. It's one place where using sequential numbers is probably easier.

I've always been irked by the inconsistency in those exit numbers between directions - for instance, that southbound exit 7 corresponds to exit 5 northbound (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8824035,-77.0187136,3a,75y,102.78h,88.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBz9jZfDuJ8wgE5DB0hVvzw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) (and then exit 5 southbound is entirely different, too! (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8824975,-77.0185074,3a,43.2y,286.74h,91.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-5IB7QKYIbLF2p_Bprf2yA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)).  I've also noticed this on I-695 and DC 295 @ Pennsylvania Ave.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 27, 2020, 09:35:38 PM
Somehow I don't see this having the intended effect:

https://twitter.com/adamtuss/status/1287908920816787457?s=21
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on August 03, 2020, 12:15:36 PM

Saw this on reddit, car accident on 2nd street and D street NW coming out of the 3rd street tunnel:

https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/i22fmj/my_pregnant_37_weeks_wife_and_i_were_struck_by_a/

While a bit of a scary surprise, I definitely think that DDOT could do more here to make the intersection safer.  Apparently, if you read the comments, the errant driver blames GPS with leading him to turn left the wrong way down a one way street (that is also an offramp from the I-395 tunnel). 

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8948088,-77.0135986,3a,75y,250.94h,86.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXL2DFYJdF-xtx6vs-J_k-g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

While there is a one-way sign here, it would be more helpful if there were a no left turn sign from WB D Street.  Also, a "Do not Enter" sign would be helpful.  And a guide sign to direct traffic heading for I-395 south to continue straight (west on D) for another half block before making the left turn.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on August 03, 2020, 12:23:52 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 03, 2020, 12:15:36 PM
the errant driver blames GPS with leading him to turn left the wrong way down a one way street

I can't stand this, and this is why I'm always encouraging people to learn the roads, not just learn how to read a GPS set of directions.

Put a giant "Do Not Enter" sign on the Perkins building?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: storm2k on August 26, 2020, 10:43:28 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 03, 2020, 12:15:36 PM

Saw this on reddit, car accident on 2nd street and D street NW coming out of the 3rd street tunnel:

https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/i22fmj/my_pregnant_37_weeks_wife_and_i_were_struck_by_a/

While a bit of a scary surprise, I definitely think that DDOT could do more here to make the intersection safer.  Apparently, if you read the comments, the errant driver blames GPS with leading him to turn left the wrong way down a one way street (that is also an offramp from the I-395 tunnel). 

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8948088,-77.0135986,3a,75y,250.94h,86.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXL2DFYJdF-xtx6vs-J_k-g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

While there is a one-way sign here, it would be more helpful if there were a no left turn sign from WB D Street.  Also, a "Do not Enter" sign would be helpful.  And a guide sign to direct traffic heading for I-395 south to continue straight (west on D) for another half block before making the left turn.

The One Way signs definitely look like they're talking about traffic continuing down D St. Pretty sure that "by the MUTCD book" method should have had a couple of one way signs coming out of 2 St, as well as Do Not Enter signs and a couple of Wrong Way signs as well.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on August 27, 2020, 08:00:14 AM
Quote from: storm2k on August 26, 2020, 10:43:28 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 03, 2020, 12:15:36 PM

Saw this on reddit, car accident on 2nd street and D street NW coming out of the 3rd street tunnel:

https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/i22fmj/my_pregnant_37_weeks_wife_and_i_were_struck_by_a/

While a bit of a scary surprise, I definitely think that DDOT could do more here to make the intersection safer.  Apparently, if you read the comments, the errant driver blames GPS with leading him to turn left the wrong way down a one way street (that is also an offramp from the I-395 tunnel). 

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8948088,-77.0135986,3a,75y,250.94h,86.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXL2DFYJdF-xtx6vs-J_k-g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

While there is a one-way sign here, it would be more helpful if there were a no left turn sign from WB D Street.  Also, a "Do not Enter" sign would be helpful.  And a guide sign to direct traffic heading for I-395 south to continue straight (west on D) for another half block before making the left turn.

The One Way signs definitely look like they're talking about traffic continuing down D St. Pretty sure that "by the MUTCD book" method should have had a couple of one way signs coming out of 2 St, as well as Do Not Enter signs and a couple of Wrong Way signs as well.

Agreed.  The only other visual clue that traffic coming out of 2nd is one way is that there is a green straight arrow on the left sidemount (when the light is green)

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8948131,-77.0133736,3a,75y,256.07h,84.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVckO2oNbMsugyY_IY70EVQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

But something potentially dangerous should not be left up to a simple one-way sign that can easily be tilted in the wrong direction (and be misinterpreted as referring to D instead of 2nd, where D happens to also be a one-way in the upcoming block).  A no left turn or a do not enter is clearly warranted here.

Unfortunately, I've seen similar signage up and down the East Coast, so even if the MUTCD recommends otherwise, local manuals probably only require posting one way signs.  In particular, very few interesections of one-way to one-way streets in DC, NYC, or Philadelphia have extra signage (no turn, do not enter) and rely exclusively on one-ways signs.  Boston and Baltimore tend to be better about this.

This corner in particular should get more because of it being a freeway exit and the building over 2nd does impact visibilty.  And if there are GPS issues of people looking for the 395 ramps then that should move the city to act.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 16, 2020, 07:35:54 PM
Washington Post: Majority of the Washington region's workers unlikely to return to the office before next summer, survey says (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/majority-of-dc-area-workers-unlikely-to-return-to-the-office-before-summer-survey-says/2020/09/14/fa0e001e-f452-11ea-999c-67ff7bf6a9d2_story.html)

QuoteIt could be next summer before the bulk of the Washington region's workers return to their offices after months spent teleworking because of the novel coronavirus, according to a new survey.

QuoteMore than six months after the pandemic hit the region, forcing hundreds of thousands of residents to work from home, many of their employers remain uncertain when and how they will be allowed back in the office, based on a study led by the Greater Washington Partnership.

QuoteThe survey of more than 400 employers in the District, Maryland and Virginia shows that most are struggling with how to safely bring back workers while the nation remains in the midst of the pandemic, even as states move forward with reopening their economies.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 09, 2020, 11:06:20 AM
More new signs in DC.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej5O7XeWkAESBCW?format=jpg&name=small)

The above replaces the sign where the button-copy "S" had been peeling off the sign for years.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej5VRU3VcAALspH?format=png&name=900x900)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on October 09, 2020, 05:43:45 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 09, 2020, 11:06:20 AM
More new signs in DC.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej5O7XeWkAESBCW?format=jpg&name=small)

The above replaces the sign where the button-copy "S" had been peeling off the sign for years.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej5VRU3VcAALspH?format=png&name=900x900)
Don't think I ever noticed the old one said "The House"!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on October 10, 2020, 12:43:48 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 09, 2020, 11:06:20 AM
More new signs in DC.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej5O7XeWkAESBCW?format=jpg&name=small)

The above replaces the sign where the button-copy "S" had been peeling off the sign for years.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej5VRU3VcAALspH?format=png&name=900x900)

Why was/is the control city "TUNNEL" and "3rd Street Tunnel"?

More VA signs without rounded borders :no:.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on October 10, 2020, 12:51:04 AM
^ Not Virginia signs.  DC signs.  Location is here (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8822805,-77.0149459,3a,75y,87.01h,102.16t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9iurCUoW483ZC74g0xB-IQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D9iurCUoW483ZC74g0xB-IQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D275.33167%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), just after NB 395 splits off the SE/SW Freeway.

I suppose they could have used New York Ave as a control city, since that's 395's terminus.  But visitors may imply from such that 395 follows New York Ave which it clearly doesn't.  The 3rd St Tunnel and what it entails is pretty well known locally, and is mentioned often enough on traffic reports for visitors to potentially understand.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: HTM Duke on October 10, 2020, 01:04:43 AM
In addition, I would argue most thru traffic coming through the SW/SE areas of the District would utilize I-695 to DC-295, due to either online mapping services, GPS, or past experience.  I would not recommend using the stretch of US-50 from I-395 to Bladensburg Rd if one is passing through unless one is a glutton for punishment.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on October 10, 2020, 02:15:35 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 10, 2020, 12:51:04 AM
^ Not Virginia signs.  DC signs.  Location is here (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8822805,-77.0149459,3a,75y,87.01h,102.16t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9iurCUoW483ZC74g0xB-IQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D9iurCUoW483ZC74g0xB-IQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D275.33167%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), just after NB 395 splits off the SE/SW Freeway.

Did they source the original signs from Virginia? I didn't realize DDOT ever used rounded corners.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 10, 2020, 08:41:40 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 10, 2020, 02:15:35 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 10, 2020, 12:51:04 AM
^ Not Virginia signs.  DC signs.  Location is here (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8822805,-77.0149459,3a,75y,87.01h,102.16t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9iurCUoW483ZC74g0xB-IQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D9iurCUoW483ZC74g0xB-IQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D275.33167%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), just after NB 395 splits off the SE/SW Freeway.

Did they source the original signs from Virginia? I didn't realize DDOT ever used rounded corners.

The ancient signs on the ramp to the 12th Street Tunnel–which I suspect are on the short list for replacement, given recent signage projects in DC–have rounded corners:

https://goo.gl/maps/mptqV6Qcu19DW5889

(Link is from the Google Maps app–pan the image around if you get sky or ground.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on October 10, 2020, 12:29:23 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 10, 2020, 08:41:40 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 10, 2020, 02:15:35 AM
Quote from: froggie on October 10, 2020, 12:51:04 AM
^ Not Virginia signs.  DC signs.  Location is here (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8822805,-77.0149459,3a,75y,87.01h,102.16t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9iurCUoW483ZC74g0xB-IQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D9iurCUoW483ZC74g0xB-IQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D275.33167%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), just after NB 395 splits off the SE/SW Freeway.

Did they source the original signs from Virginia? I didn't realize DDOT ever used rounded corners.

The ancient signs on the ramp to the 12th Street Tunnel–which I suspect are on the short list for replacement, given recent signage projects in DC–have rounded corners:

https://goo.gl/maps/mptqV6Qcu19DW5889

(Link is from the Google Maps app–pan the image around if you get sky or ground.)

(it was actually pointed at the sign ... nicely done!)

That's very interesting. I really like those older standards, with the slightly elevated tabs and round corners. DC had some great signs. It's too bad they don't continue those older practices.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on November 02, 2020, 06:54:20 PM
https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/confusing-16th-street-traffic-circle-gets-makeover/2450619/

I noticed this the other day when driving between Silver Spring and DC.  This traffic circle is on 16th street at the DC/MD line.  For many years, 16th street is the main flow of traffic.  There were signals stopping the flow of traffic on 16th street so that traffic from N Portal or Eastern can make turns.  However, traffic from Colesville (which leads to the US 29 expy to Columbia and the southwestern Baltimore suburbs), which is far busier, faced a yield sign and no signal - largely because that part of the circle was in MD's jurisdiction not DC's.  From tons of experience, I could tell you this was a difficult left turn to make (SB Colesville to SB 16th) so I usually made a right on East-West Highway and then a left on 16th so I could have the aid of signals.  I hope this would make things safer, but they did change the lane configuration (which lanes on SB 16th turn and which do not) so a lot of people have to get used to that.

The old lane configuration sign is here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9936957,-77.0363723,3a,15y,195.47h,86.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syrvedpKrbrJimYiVMD51Ug!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Compare to the sign in the above linked video story from channel 4.

[I hope to get a better look at this soon.]
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 02, 2020, 07:21:53 PM
Quote from: mrsman on November 02, 2020, 06:54:20 PM
https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/confusing-16th-street-traffic-circle-gets-makeover/2450619/

I noticed this the other day when driving between Silver Spring and DC.  This traffic circle is on 16th street at the DC/MD line.  For many years, 16th street is the main flow of traffic.  There were signals stopping the flow of traffic on 16th street so that traffic from N Portal or Eastern can make turns.  However, traffic from Colesville (which leads to the US 29 expy to Columbia and the southwestern Baltimore suburbs), which is far busier, faced a yield sign and no signal - largely because that part of the circle was in MD's jurisdiction not DC's.  From tons of experience, I could tell you this was a difficult left turn to make (SB Colesville to SB 16th) so I usually made a right on East-West Highway and then a left on 16th so I could have the aid of signals.  I hope this would make things safer, but they did change the lane configuration (which lanes on SB 16th turn and which do not) so a lot of people have to get used to that.

The old lane configuration sign is here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9936957,-77.0363723,3a,15y,195.47h,86.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syrvedpKrbrJimYiVMD51Ug!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Compare to the sign in the above linked video story from channel 4.

[I hope to get a better look at this soon.]

This place has had a near-infinite number of crashes over the years.  Problem is that the D.C./Maryland border runs right through the intersection, and one side or the other had to allow the other side to control signal heads in the other jurisdiction. 

Then there is the problem of getting D.C. (DDOT), Maryland (MDOT/SHA) and Montgomery County, Maryland to agree on how to design and operate the signals here. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on November 03, 2020, 12:05:19 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 02, 2020, 07:21:53 PM
Quote from: mrsman on November 02, 2020, 06:54:20 PM
https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/confusing-16th-street-traffic-circle-gets-makeover/2450619/

I noticed this the other day when driving between Silver Spring and DC.  This traffic circle is on 16th street at the DC/MD line.  For many years, 16th street is the main flow of traffic.  There were signals stopping the flow of traffic on 16th street so that traffic from N Portal or Eastern can make turns.  However, traffic from Colesville (which leads to the US 29 expy to Columbia and the southwestern Baltimore suburbs), which is far busier, faced a yield sign and no signal - largely because that part of the circle was in MD's jurisdiction not DC's.  From tons of experience, I could tell you this was a difficult left turn to make (SB Colesville to SB 16th) so I usually made a right on East-West Highway and then a left on 16th so I could have the aid of signals.  I hope this would make things safer, but they did change the lane configuration (which lanes on SB 16th turn and which do not) so a lot of people have to get used to that.

The old lane configuration sign is here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9936957,-77.0363723,3a,15y,195.47h,86.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syrvedpKrbrJimYiVMD51Ug!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Compare to the sign in the above linked video story from channel 4.

[I hope to get a better look at this soon.]

This place has had a near-infinite number of crashes over the years.  Problem is that the D.C./Maryland border runs right through the intersection, and one side or the other had to allow the other side to control signal heads in the other jurisdiction. 

Then there is the problem of getting D.C. (DDOT), Maryland (MDOT/SHA) and Montgomery County, Maryland to agree on how to design and operate the signals here.

I'm glad they figured this out.  I always assumed that any border MD/DC signals were operated by DC, as there are many signalized intersections along Western, Eastern, and Southern Aves and they all have DC signal infrastructure.

I think there is still confusion regarding the lane configuration on SB 16th that needs to be warned about better.

The Silver Spring section of 16th does not need to be 3-3 the whole way from the Circle to Georgia Ave.  The extra space can be a bike lane or parking.  If there were only 2 thru SB lanes on 16th, it would be easier to guide the two lanes through the circle into DC, since it is a surprise that the left lane under the current configuration is forced to turn left onto Eastern or Colesville.  Doing this was necessary as the left lane tends to get blocked by these left turns [including the routing of SB Metorbus route S2], so they allowed the right two lanes to continue south on 16th.  That's a fine change, but the surprise is not, so it needs to be warned of better.

I would also say that the sign is confusing since it shows the lanes curving around the circle.  A simpler sign like a modified version of the R61-22 would be better. 

https://www.tapconet.com/product/r61-22-ca-triple-lane-control-left-straight-and-right-turn-symbol-sign

Replace the left lane arrows on the R61-22, with a double left, one left pointed acute and one left pointed obtuse, similar to this sign in CA: 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1582952,-118.3702799,3a,37.5y,191.44h,102.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sa_MUUwzIfwletIwV9JDSMQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on November 03, 2020, 02:35:14 PM
Quote from: mrsman on November 03, 2020, 12:05:19 PM
I'm glad they figured this out.  I always assumed that any border MD/DC signals were operated by DC, as there are many signalized intersections along Western, Eastern, and Southern Aves and they all have DC signal infrastructure.

Signals at the D.C./Maryland border have generally been installed and maintained by DDOT and its predecessor agencies for as long as I can remember.  This is largely because those streets on the D.C./Maryland border (Western, Eastern and Southern) were built to be entirely in D.C., though homes and businesses on the Maryland side of the street area always entirely in Maryland.

At the junction of 16th Street (MD-390 in Maryland), Eastern Avenue and Colesville Road, this did not work, in part because Colesville Road (MD-384) is entirely in Maryland. I think that was the main reason why there was never a complete set of signal heads here, and the movement from southbound Colesville Road to southbound 16th Street was especially bad and especially crash-prone.

Quote from: mrsman on November 03, 2020, 12:05:19 PM
I think there is still confusion regarding the lane configuration on SB 16th that needs to be warned about better.

That sounds like something that MDOT/SHA would need to correct.

Quote from: mrsman on November 03, 2020, 12:05:19 PM
The Silver Spring section of 16th does not need to be 3-3 the whole way from the Circle to Georgia Ave.  The extra space can be a bike lane or parking.  If there were only 2 thru SB lanes on 16th, it would be easier to guide the two lanes through the circle into DC, since it is a surprise that the left lane under the current configuration is forced to turn left onto Eastern or Colesville.  Doing this was necessary as the left lane tends to get blocked by these left turns [including the routing of SB Metorbus route S2], so they allowed the right two lanes to continue south on 16th.  That's a fine change, but the surprise is not, so it needs to be warned of better.

16th Street (MD-390) north of East-West Highway (MD-410) is more of an expressway than it is an arterial road and people want to drive fast (last time I drove by there I noticed several speed cameras that did slow at least some drivers down).  This may have been in part because had the Northern Parkway been built, it would have tied-in to 16th Street at the present-day northern terminus of 16th Street at Georgia Avenue (MD-97).

Quote from: mrsman on November 03, 2020, 12:05:19 PM
I would also say that the sign is confusing since it shows the lanes curving around the circle.  A simpler sign like a modified version of the R61-22 would be better. 

https://www.tapconet.com/product/r61-22-ca-triple-lane-control-left-straight-and-right-turn-symbol-sign

Replace the left lane arrows on the R61-22, with a double left, one left pointed acute and one left pointed obtuse, similar to this sign in CA: 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1582952,-118.3702799,3a,37.5y,191.44h,102.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sa_MUUwzIfwletIwV9JDSMQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I have no issue with that. I generally like the way that Caltrans and California local governments sign their roads, though that panel is quite ancient. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on November 05, 2020, 11:57:50 PM
A little more information on the 16th Street circle:

Every intersection surrounding the circle is set up with new DDOT signal infrastructure, even on the MD side.  Signalized pedestrian crossings around the whole circle as well.

As you drive through, it is basically like driving through four very closely spaced signalized intersections - kind of like a super-condensed town center intersection.

16th SB:  Left lane to turn left at Colesville or Eastern.   The middle and right lanes allow one to continue through to 16th street DC, and the right lane also allows for a turn on N Portal.  The two signals are coordinated so that when the first is green, the second is as well.  To make the left turn, all traffic must make a left at the second intersection and either go through the circle to Eastern or partially around the circle to Colesville or to 16th north (u-turn).  16th SB and 16th NB are coordinated together and represent the main flow of the intersection.

16th NB:  Two lanes flow through to the 16th north to Silver Spring.  Curb lane must turn right at Colesville.  There is a very abrupt lane shift here, but there are guide lines through the intersection.

Colesville SB:  Left lane for  turns on Eastern, two right lanes to continue down 16th SB.  The signal facing Colesville is also coordinated with the signal at the south side of the circle

N Portal EB: This approach intersects at the southern side of the circle.  Traffic signal controls to allow for a right turn movement onto 16th south or to continue around the circle for any of the other movements.

Eastern Ave NB:  From this approach, you may only go NB on 16th or Colesville.   There is warning that after you proceed there may be the need for an immediate stop at the second traffic signal (which is likely red).  As another precaution to the quick stop, the traffic signal facing Eastern has RED-YELLOW-RIGHT FYA  (instead of R-Y-G).

Given the complexities, with a caveat to my complaints mentioned earlier, I think DDOT did a really good job here.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on December 01, 2020, 10:31:18 AM
A little more on the 16th Street Circle.

I have written to both MD and DC authorities about my concerns. 

Here is the response I received from MD SHA District 3:

Quote

This is in response to your traffic safety concerns at the above subject location in Montgomery County. The Maryland Department of Transportation State Highway Administration (MDOT SHA) District Three traffic engineering staff appreciates the opportunity to be of assistance.

In response to your concerns regarding traffic and safety at MD 384 (Colesville Road) and 16th Street, we contacted our local partners at the District of Columbia Department of Transportation (DDOT) who recently developed a project to convert the MD 384 and 16th Street/Eastern Avenue/North Portal Drive to a fully signalized intersection with agreement from MDOT SHA. This project is almost complete.

The subject signals are operated and maintained by DDOT.  Their Traffic Management Center can be contacted directly to report any issues in relation to the traffic signals at 202-671-3368 upon construction completion.

Thank you again for sharing your concerns. If you have any additional questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us at 1-800-749-0737 or 301-513-7300. We will be happy to assist.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXX

Team Leader- District 3 Traffic Engineering section

Fairland- Montgomery County

MDOT SHA


I welcome the response and am grateful that they took the time to respond, but I don't think they understood the point of my writing to them.  It seems like the gist of their letter is that this is a DC project so it is DC's problem, not theirs.  MD SHA controls the approach roads to the circle from the MD side - that is where there is a lot of issues that can be addressed.  Even though they did leave a call back number, since my issue was a little on the complicated side, I decided it most appropriate to write back in an e-mail.  This time, I at least have an e-mail, so I could write back to the engineering team of the local district.  [My initial writing to them was off some form of MD SHA's website

Here is what I wrote them earlier today:

Quote

Thank you for your quick response to my initial email.  I certainly realize that the traffic project at the 16th street circle is a joint effort between your agency and DDOT, and that DDOT is handling the installation and operation of the signals.  The purpose of my addressing my letter to your agency is that there is a safety issue with respect to the APPROACHES to the 16th street circle in Maryland that can be addressed by your agency.  Both of the approaches are state highways, Colesville Rd [MD-384] and 16th St [MD-390].

The new traffic setup as one leaves the circle southbound requires the left lane to turn left on Eastern, the middle lane to stay on 16th, and the right lane to go either to 16th or to make a right on North Portal.  This is a change from the old setup where the left lane could go to either Eastern or 16th, the middle lane to 16th, and the right lane forcing a right turn onto North Portal.  The main reason for this change, from what I can gather, is that the traffic turning left from the circle to Eastern (including the route of the S1 Metrobus) was blocking a lane of traffic coming from 16th (and Colesville), essentially only allowing one lane of traffic to continue unimpeded.  There are some benefits to this change and I believe that DDOT made the right decision, with respect to the narrow issue of the lane assignments.

The key problem with the new setup, however, is that the approaches from MARYLAND into the circle have not changed to address the new traffic configuration at the circle.  It is clear that the majority of the traffic approaching the circle would like to continue to 16th in DC.  So it is also clear that the lane assignment of the approaches should allow for the busiest lanes to continue onto 16th in DC and not be forced to a last minute lane change.

From Colesville Rd [MD-384], there are two southbound traffic lanes and one lane of parking south of East-West HIghway [MD-410].  This widens to 3 lanes southbound once parking is prohibited as one gets closer to the circle.  The 2 left lanes have the majority of the traffic since these are a continuation of the main traffic pattern and the right lane has very little since it only began where the parking stopped.  For the old traffic pattern at the circle, this worked fine since the 2 left lanes of Colesville, with the heaviest traffic, defaulted onto the 2 lanes of 16th, and the low traffic right lane forced a right turn onto North Portal.  For the new traffic pattern, the 2 left lanes should gradually shift to the right IN MARYLAND, (before reaching the circle), so that the heaviest traffic from Colesville defaults directly onto 16th.  The middle lane of Colesville shifts right to become the right lane of the circle and the right lane of 16th in DC.  The left lane of Colesville shifts right to become the middle lane of the circle and the left lane of 16th in DC.  The lane shift will allow for the painting of a left turn pocket that approaches the circle to become the left lane of the circle which will force a left onto Eastern.

A similar change needs to take place along the 16th street [MD-390] approach FROM MARYLAND into the circle.  This is a little more difficult as there are three southbound traffic lanes south of East-West Highway along 16th instead of two.*  The two left lanes of southbound 16th approaching East-West Highway are far busier than the right lane, so it would make sense to force the right lane to turn right on East-West Highway so that only two lanes continue south of East-West Highway to approach the circle.  The two lanes of traffic should gradually shift to the right to allow for the painting of a left turn pocket that defaults onto the left lane of the circle for the left turns onto Eastern.  In this manner, the two left lanes of 16th in Maryland will default directly onto 16th street in DC.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

* There are three southbound lanes of 16th street in Maryland beginning south of Grace Church Rd, but there really is no point to this.  South of Seminary Rd, the two right lanes of Georgia Ave [MD-97] allow for a right turn onto 16th street [MD-390].  There, the road is two lanes southbound and traffic moves well at all times of day.  Where southbound traffic widens to three lanes,  at Grace Church Rd, there is very little traffic and this encourages significant speeding.  Three lanes of traffic is simply not necessary here.  The right lane could be repurposed for parking, a shoulder, a bus lane, or a bike lane and traffic would not be affected.  If the entire stretch of southbound 16th street in Maryland were limited to two thru lanes of southbound traffic, it would be even easier to design the approach to the circle to have two thru lanes, as I discussed above.


I have had mixed success in contacting government agencies about traffic issues more complicated than just reporting a missing bulb in a traffic signal.  I once was successful in getting a parking restriction put in place on one side of a  narrow residential street that was next to a church.  (Churchgoers parking on both sides of the street made it too narrow for two-way traffic - prohibiting parking on one side would still provide enough overflow parking for the church while allowing two-way traffic to flow.  The street in question was 24 feet wide and there is very little on-street parking there, except during church events.)  But other times, it seems like my comments go unheeded.

I hope they recognize the issue.  I'm afraid that all the money dedicated to the traffic circle came from DDOT, which means that any necessary fix on the MD side would not be funded, even though the fixes would be very helpful for safety here.  (And the issues on the approaches are clearly in MD's jurisdiction, even if they allow DC to handle the traffic signals.)



Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on December 01, 2020, 03:45:51 PM
^^^
That's a very good explanation. I think they'd be wise to listen to your concerns.

As it exists right now, there's basically only one through lane along Colesville. The current design, to maintain two through lanes onto southbound 16th, requires traffic to change lanes shortly before the circle (kind of a 'dance' if you will). I don't know what the situation is right now, but I suspect the left lane isn't getting much use, and the right lane, given that it's parking until shortly before the circle, isn't getting much use either. And then shortly before the circle, you have the middle lane vehicles either changing to the right to allow left lane traffic to change into the middle lane, or they don't change lanes at all and basically force everyone into a single lane, and/or left lane traffic simply ignores the left turn lane in the circle and continues straight onto 16th regardless.

As for the approach from southbound 16th, that's an interesting call ending the right lane at East West Highway. Why not simply have that lane merge left about 300 feet after the intersection, and then have the left two lanes shift to the right to allow for a left turn pocket? Both scenarios would maintain two through lanes, as may be desired, but I think the merge option is more desirable than a forced turn. DC drivers seem pretty aggressive when it comes to merging (in a good way), so I think that would be better as a forced turn might make the #3 lane along southbound 16th north of East West Highway totally unused (I don't know how much traffic currently makes a right onto East West Highway, but the current setup seems pretty good and I'd hate to mess with it).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on December 01, 2020, 09:35:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 01, 2020, 03:45:51 PM
^^^
That's a very good explanation. I think they'd be wise to listen to your concerns.

As it exists right now, there's basically only one through lane along Colesville. The current design, to maintain two through lanes onto southbound 16th, requires traffic to change lanes shortly before the circle (kind of a 'dance' if you will). I don't know what the situation is right now, but I suspect the left lane isn't getting much use, and the right lane, given that it's parking until shortly before the circle, isn't getting much use either. And then shortly before the circle, you have the middle lane vehicles either changing to the right to allow left lane traffic to change into the middle lane, or they don't change lanes at all and basically force everyone into a single lane, and/or left lane traffic simply ignores the left turn lane in the circle and continues straight onto 16th regardless.


This basically sums it up.  I have been going through here regularly as my son is in a small private one room class situation due to COVID and the school is using space just off 16th in the northern part of DC (less than a mile from this circle).  My concern is more with safety than with congestion.  I am happy to follow the lane lines, but there are so many others that do not.

I live to the northeast of here, so I could come in via either 16th or Colesville to approach the circle.  Neither approach is very good.  Since I make a right turn onto a side street from 16th in DC, I aim to end up in the right lane of 16th after passing through the circle.  When I approach from Colesville, I ride in the middle lane, then shift into the parking lane before the circle, so that I can follow the far right lane through the circle.  I am following the rules, but so many others in the lane to the left of me just glide into my lane and honk at me as though I am causing the problem.  It is true that prior to this configuration, the right lane forced a turn onto N Portal and the middle lane of the circle led to the right lane of 16th, but the lines no longer indicate that.  However many drivers are still doing that and evasive action on my part is preventing fender benders in this area.

Quote

As for the approach from southbound 16th, that's an interesting call ending the right lane at East West Highway. Why not simply have that lane merge left about 300 feet after the intersection, and then have the left two lanes shift to the right to allow for a left turn pocket? Both scenarios would maintain two through lanes, as may be desired, but I think the merge option is more desirable than a forced turn. DC drivers seem pretty aggressive when it comes to merging (in a good way), so I think that would be better as a forced turn might make the #3 lane along southbound 16th north of East West Highway totally unused (I don't know how much traffic currently makes a right onto East West Highway, but the current setup seems pretty good and I'd hate to mess with it).

I find your approach acceptable.  If the right lane forces a merge into the middle lane, the markings would be clear that the traffic in the right lane would have to yield to traffic in the middle lane.  Since the right lane is far less traveled this could be OK.  And if drivers know in advance that the right lane will end, it will be even less traveled still.  As it is, there are relatively few who use the right lane, probably because the right lane used to force a turn onto North Portal. 

North Portal can get a decent amount of traffic, but 16th is far heavier.  North Portal leads to Beach Drive which allows for a drive into Downtown DC with few traffic signals or stop signs.  But certain portions of Beach Drive have been closed for repairs for a number of years, so not many have gone this way for a while.  Plus, parts of it are closed for walking/biking due to COVID (and have been closed every weekend for many years as well).  This is a long way of saying that while there is a reason in the past to push 1 of 3 lanes onto North Portal, that no longer really exists now and it's basically a quiet residential street for the time being.

A nearby situation where a busy right lane forces a merge after the busy intersection is at Georgia Ave NB at Forest Glen.  The curb lane is very busy because of the cloverleaf ramps from the Beltway, but the curb lane ends just after the next intersection.  People do merge into the adjacent lane when they can (as they come off the ramps, before or after the Forest Glen intersection), but it is still less traveled than other lanes because of the forced merge.  Folks do use the lane, but a lot do turn on Forest Glen as well.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0157256,-77.0426339,3a,75y,330.36h,71.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7Ja6BLU5g9VT-eesH7pFyg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192



What is unacceptable is the current situation that basically without warning forces the left lane to turn onto Eastern.  The left and middle lane are the busier two lanes and they need to default directly onto 16th south of the circle.

It is hard to gage what true traffic counts are now because of COVID.  This change to the traffic pattern only occurred a few weeks ago.  I can definitely see implementing your suggestion so that if squeezing down to 2 lanes causes a backup, it at least won't also congest the intersection with E-W Highway (which will remain at 3 lanes southbound).  I can say that pre-COVID this stretch of SB 16th between E-W Highway and the circle was pretty congested, but I think a lot of that had to do with the left lane being blocked by those who turned on Eastern, especially the buses.  I think if two consistent unimpeded southbound lanes were continuous through the whole stretch, a third lane would simply be unnecessary. 

Further north, the third southbound lane is just simply unnecessary.  This stretch encourages speeding and there are a lot of speeding cameras present (at least two in each direction) between Georgia and East-West Highway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 17, 2020, 07:40:04 AM
Forgot to mention it earlier this week: On Sunday we went to Arlington Cemetery and were pleasantly surprised to find Memorial Circle reconfigured. There are now some pork chop style islands to separate some of the traffic flow and to eliminate the spots where traffic on the circle had to yield. Traffic heading from Washington Boulevard to the cemetery now has a separate lane with a stop sign so as to reduce the backups for traffic headed to the bridge. There are also various bollards to try to discourage last-minute lane changing. It seemed to work well enough on the FDR side of the circle where you go around to your left towards the cemetery–we didn't have to stop to yield to traffic coming off the bridge. (The line to get to the cemetery started right after that spot.) I don't know how it'll be during a morning commute if/when things get back to normal, of course.

No pictures....I was driving and my phone was in my pocket and my wife and mom didn't have their phones out.

Edited to add: I found the following diagram that shows the changes pretty well. The bridge is to the right; the cemetery is to the left; north is up. Notice the three new pork chop islands to the right side of the image. If you're coming from Washington Boulevard and heading to the cemetery, you go to the left of the pork chop island at the bottom of the map, stop at a new stop sign at the line shown, then go around the circle without having to stop to yield to traffic coming from the bridge as you used to do. Traffic coming from the bridge heading to the cemetery or Route 110 goes to the left of the top right pork chop, stops at a stop sign, and then joins the traffic going around the circle. There are some bollards on the far end of that pork chop to prevent a stop sign avoidance maneuver of coming from the bridge, bypassing to the right of the pork chop, and then cutting left; the same is also true of the pork chop on the south side. I couldn't tell you how many bollards there were in each location because I was driving and, obviously, with a new configuration I needed to pay a little more attention to the road than I might normally.

(https://mountvernontrail.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/4e85f22d-f3b9-474c-becd-019444a9c18c.jpeg)

Incidentally, to the north of what this shows there's a left-side ramp shaped sort of like a U-turn that carries traffic from the bridge bound for Washington Boulevard, I-395, and the GW Parkway. It's slated to be closed for good. A bit further north there is another ramp that has an abandoned feel to it that used to be popular among people who would park and wait for the HOV restrictions on I-395 to expire. That ramp will now be striped for two lanes and will replace the other one. See diagram below.

(https://mountvernontrail.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/8978da2b-6a49-42b2-b54b-463fa223db50.jpeg)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 17, 2020, 10:10:51 AM
You forgot to mention that all of the lanes on the Memorial Bridge have been restored.

When I would drive in that way with my wife, I'd intentionally go in the reversible lane and go at the speed limit just to draw her ire. I'll admit that it was a *really* close call with the oncoming traffic. Definitely not for the faint of heart.

Apparently they've also removed the drawbridge mechanism, making it a fixed-span bridge. I can't say I ever recall the bridge being open anyways.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 17, 2020, 11:02:03 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on December 17, 2020, 10:10:51 AM
You forgot to mention that all of the lanes on the Memorial Bridge have been restored.

When I would drive in that way with my wife, I'd intentionally go in the reversible lane and go at the speed limit just to draw her ire. I'll admit that it was a *really* close call with the oncoming traffic. Definitely not for the faint of heart.

Apparently they've also removed the drawbridge mechanism, making it a fixed-span bridge. I can't say I ever recall the bridge being open anyways.

The lanes being restored hadn't even crossed my mind because we didn't go over the bridge. We were down there for one specific purpose, to go to the cemetery, and on our way out we didn't leave via Memorial Avenue because it was so busy that they opened up the service gate on Columbia Pike to allow people to exit. That gate is right across from the ramp from eastbound Columbia Pike to southbound I-395, so it worked perfectly for us and removed any reason I might have had to consider driving over the bridge.

I do, however, recall hearing the reports on the news that the bridge was fully re-opened, but since I haven't driven over it since then I probably wouldn't have commented about it anyway since I wouldn't have had anything to say. Maybe this weekend if I go into DC to go to the liquor store for Christmas I might use that bridge just to check it out even though it's out of my way.

You're right about them removing the drawbridge mechanism. The expansion of the 14th Street Bridge complex had rendered the draw span useless because there are three fixed spans down there (the Fenwick Bridge carrying the Yellow Line, the Rochambeau Bridge (also called the "HOV bridge"), and the George Mason Bridge carrying southbound I-395). Only the Arland D. Williams Bridge (the northbound I-395 span named for the man who drowned rescuing people after the Air Florida crash in 1982) had a drawspan.

The last time Memorial Bridge's draw span opened was in 1961, so I'm not surprised you've never seen it open. I haven't either. Wikipedia says the last time the Williams Bridge opened its draw span and the Long Bridge (railroad bridge at the 14th Street Bridge complex) opened its swing span was in 1969 for barge access involved in demolishing the old "Highway Bridge" that was the predecessor to what is now the George Mason Bridge. The George Mason Bridge opened in 1962 and rendered the Memorial Bridge draw span largely pointless. (For that matter, even if the George Mason Bridge hadn't been there, the 1964 opening of the Theodore Roosevelt Bridge, which is also a fixed span, largely blocked any access further upriver by vessels that might have needed the drawbridges raised.) Once upon a time, there was an idea that boats would dock at the foot of those steps just north of Memorial Bridge, but that idea never took off. I believe at one point there was an idea to use those steps as seating for people to view concerts to be performed on docked boats as well, but I don't know what came of that.

A Google search (https://www.google.com/search?q=arlington+memorial+bridge+drawbridge&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWnMrbsdXtAhVN11kKHWGpDBYQ_AUoA3oECCMQBQ&biw=1920&bih=938) reveals a few photos of Memorial Bridge with the draw span open:

(https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/pnp/thc/5a37000/5a37500/5a37532r.jpg)

(https://historicbridges.org/dc/memorialbridge/historical2_large.jpg)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 17, 2020, 11:14:52 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 17, 2020, 11:02:03 AM
Maybe this weekend if I go into DC to go to the liquor store for Christmas I might use that bridge just to check it out even though it's out of my way.

It's funny you should mention that - the very reason we were going over the Memorial Bridge was to go to Watergate Liquors; they have a specific brand of eggnog we were after.

While walking there, we stumbled across the one-way taxi loop at the apartment on Virginia Ave that you were accustomed to complaining about in your videos, and noted it to ourselves.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 17, 2020, 11:43:51 AM
My dashcam broke and I haven't replaced it yet. Not sure I will. I drive substantially less than I used to.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 17, 2020, 01:40:13 PM
Didn't mean it like that; just thought you'd get a kick out of us recognizing one of your landmarks from back in the day.

I'm driving so much less too, for obvious reasons. I may actually drive into DC on Saturday to check out the Capitol Crossing project; last I checked on Google Maps, it looks like the deck and new street grid are done. I was going to do it last Saturday with the good weather, but the protests downtown made me choose other pursuits.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on December 17, 2020, 03:54:06 PM
If possible, some photos of the Memorial Circle reconfiguration would be useful for those of us no longer in the area (and b/c COVID will be a long while in visiting)...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 17, 2020, 04:12:51 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 17, 2020, 03:54:06 PM
If possible, some photos of the Memorial Circle reconfiguration would be useful for those of us no longer in the area (and b/c COVID will be a long while in visiting)...

If I go to DC, and if I take Memorial Bridge, I can try, depending on the traffic (bearing in mind that because I will be driving a manual shift, I typically need to shift right as I'm going through the spots where I would be most likely to take photos). I'm highly uncertain whether I will make it to DC at all depending on the amount of time Safelite takes to replace the RX-7's windshield that morning. I may just walk to the ABC Store here instead. I'd rather go to DC for a better selection, but circumstances will dictate as they will.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 17, 2020, 04:35:52 PM
If I find time I may also try to get some shots. No guarantees though...this weekend I've got other errands that take precedence.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 19, 2020, 03:18:48 PM
I'm not going to make it into the city. I just finished several other things and we have to go pick up the car at the windshield repair place before 5:00, but we want to do it earlier so as to be able to inspect the repair while it's still light outside. Liquor stores in DC aren't open Sundays, so I'll just go to the ABC tomorrow.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on December 19, 2020, 10:05:58 PM
Got in a good amount of mileage in DC today.

First went to the flagship REI store, in the old Uline Arena, on M St NE. The decking work on the "Capitol Crossing" (air rights over 395) appears to be completely done, and the only remaining work on the project is the above-ground construction of office towers. I didn't get to the grounds of that project, but according to Google Maps, the local street/walkway grid in that area has been restored, making a seamless connection between the east end of downtown and the Union Station area.

I parked in a neighborhood near the REI store. There were provisional 15 MPH signs along 3rd St NE between N and K. DC has been doing this as people are spending more time at home and engaging in outdoor recreation (which spills onto the streets)

Other fun neighborhood facts near there:
* You can see tons of high-rise construction in the Union Market area (north of Florida Ave)
* The clerk helping me out at REI was deaf. For those who know that area, that's extremely close to Gallaudet University, a college for deaf and hard-of-hearing people. I wonder how mask wearing has affected their ability to read lips.

I then drove through downtown DC by way of H St. It's crazy how dead and quiet the area around the arena (MCI/Verizon/Capital One Center) is these days. Nothing to pull in crowds.

Going along further H St towards the White House, I turned onto NY Avenue going southwest. There was some truck-mounted crane doing work on the roof of an office building on the south side of NY Avenue, so the eastbound lanes were blocked altogether, and the westbound lanes were restricted to a single lane (to accommodate the radius of the crane).

Went down 15th Street to Constitution. Still a respectable amount of tourists, but unless they're viewing the monuments, I have no idea what they're seeing, let alone where they're staying or eating.

Took Constitution to the Lincoln Memorial and the Memorial Bridge. Work on the bridge itself is done, along with the circle on the west side of the bridge:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/VQfOj_rGchKkeyLWHcRhJBHxib95mkdJlXvszS8_lwbb7YVYS-hdth8BcMzPMz42ZIoRUpQoKU-WInytZncOQKHZa8zEQGG93XNzZ8COEybsjhnXIs9FQm3TJsrkMPZO5xAoglC0jYg=w2400)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5jX13PBP6QxkO0NkZH7bPYFIndyelxZJXBYfWUc50IbgP_ssLuxN6_cAXEdOwO3Mmrd0vCNzq0_RIRkmdv2QSZvbC3oAgJagpO1t8Ax8W8V1WVZKRy1HvuKxR_d-DvdUpu2CWTILhTw=w2400)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/t4vUfpnYDk0Kj6xgVdmk0pTc9xDyjfXNvHLfHbsZrmLfT2u1DC-rlZacEOAPls1KSF4lsj9uJoKbchjbXY-c9P3oP410_RpMir7Cr8qBfyVIu1CZhgGHg320sjPni5sAt5G2M6Bgbzo=w2400)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Gbqs9EfW_X-MdTXOwjHl5Ps1XxvMp0m5064X3c5ZnEuVKaWy6b4p2hosGHwipsg0xZorN_fEWX-1e9Qdf-BHHhq582TuNZbhUE6uSB2a39zGLxs9-HjdXPGt1pEmL2Vt_r2opfnMieA=w2400)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9MUDkoyezG3VGOEzY61Xb5JNkvCGpa7Hdbal-sO6LOvBmv0ZcPric1Ht6Eg5_6uspPxoUTwGeNnutd_QxIPty7zmwTFXSSS0MC5TQJyjLk7kAUI__jtbPZWIuRFfYKt2gkt9SF4i8T0=w2400)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/lbTxJJiFp_yuZ0qgn3YXDigF9SZbdNLFT1QTare7vY4FEhHINMqPdtPAJ_skvOBeDd13FDY6enHVt_xmYOwUX7hUtSjlWiGzyq3Lzs4vpqqdrv-8Nsf9HCYCSIzg9DSq0TdKfa9bzGo=w2400)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yU9Bvn3XvRLbxtJ3WThwqRZv8ZgYlazhlE9SD3iLsARG_CK82SDM5gFE_1EkT32ZJVf41qlfZIR5cWdOENI9703YlYd4Q3JEUUzktJCdVJNx72sGnBhJvAxG9Pu_kCa-hdHa0rKdZvc=w2400)

I've had problems on this board before with photos from my phone, so we'll see if they last. I made it a point to physically stop before taking the photos (ensuring there was nobody behind me).

I guess I'd describe the finished project as having more flexi-post lane dividers, and also some new stop signs. The stop signs definitely will take some of the pressure of drivers in that area, as you can get really sent in the wrong direction if you are in the wrong lane at the wrong time, but you'll get honked at if you go too slow as well.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 20, 2020, 09:06:10 AM
^^^^

In case it's unclear, in the third-to-last picture, the Volvo SUV waiting at the stop sign is coming from Washington Boulevard and passing to the left of the new pork chop island using the new lane that goes to Memorial Avenue and the cemetery. The other SUV in that picture is in a thru lane that heads to the bridge without stopping or yielding.

Similarly, in the next-to-last picture, the Toyota sedan is passing to the left of the new pork chop island coming from the bridge and is about to encounter the stop sign seen in the picture; after stopping, he'll enter what is now the single-lane circle and proceed towards Memorial Avenue.

In the last picture, someone who is coming from the cemetery who wants to head to US-50, the GW Parkway, or possibly I-395* would bear to the right via that lane that ends immediately. While you can't see it here, the area is set up to discourage people coming from the bridge from cutting left at this point to bypass the stop sign the Toyota sedan was approaching. (*" Possibly I-395"  denotes that from what I've observed, a lot of drivers exiting the cemetery who want I-395 or US-1 through Crystal City will simply cut a left turn right after the security checkpoint onto the loop ramp to southbound Route 110. It doesn't look like that maneuver should be allowed, but nobody ever stops anyone from doing it. I've done it myself when exiting the cemetery.)

One big improvement is that traffic on the circle no longer has yield signs due to the new pork chop islands. Somewhat disappointing that traffic entering the circle via the new lanes has stop signs instead of yield signs, I suppose, but it seems like it ought to be less chaotic overall in the future. On the other hand, the stop sign in the fourth picture from the top with the red Dodge van struck me as utterly pointless because typically the volume of traffic coming around the circle at that spot is extremely low compared to the volume of traffic coming from Memorial Avenue (due to the exit ramp from Route 110)–the stop sign there seems like overkill to me.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on December 21, 2020, 12:08:07 PM
It seems like a lot of very good improvements to safety in the area of Memorial Circle.

One pet peeve of mine for this area is the poor signage to guide people around to make sure that people are using the proper lanes to go around this mess.  The brown signs on the parkway are generally bad, but especially around this area where there are a lot of choices to be made between movments for Washington Blvd, GW Pkwy, US 50, Memorial Bridge, Arlington Cemertery and other points.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on December 22, 2020, 10:00:24 AM
NPS is not exactly known for adequate signage.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 22, 2020, 10:19:13 AM
Quote from: froggie on December 22, 2020, 10:00:24 AM
NPS is not exactly known for adequate signage.

Absolutely, and they've also made comments over the years about how the roads in that particular area "are not intended as commuter roads." That's nice, but they are commuter roads, like it or not.

One aesthetic positive: The new changes to the circle should hopefully eliminate the need for the NPS to have police officers out there moving sawhorses every day, though of course they'll still have to do that at the other end of the bridge at the bottom of the loop ramp and the connection to Rock Creek Parkway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NJRoadfan on December 22, 2020, 11:41:17 AM
Quite a few tourists drive through that circle. Having good signage is a must for them too. Speaking of roads that NPS claims aren't commuter roads, did they ever repave their part of the BW Parkway?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on December 27, 2020, 10:39:32 PM
My mother used to live in Court House, and she drove to work (issues with motion sickness on the metro). Her commute took her US-50 to the GW Pkwy, then the loop onto Memorial Ave, through the circle and over the bridge, around the Lincoln Memorial to Independence, where she turned left and headed into the District. Really a gorgeous commute that rarely had any traffic (mostly along Independence after passing the memorials, IIRC). It's funny to think the NPS doesn't consider these routes "commuter routes" when they definitely have commuters! Although as a route, yes, it maybe wasn't as crammed as the 395 bridges.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 29, 2020, 07:38:07 AM
Dave Dildine reports that the District has restriped inbound I-395 to eliminate the abrupt blind merge coming down the ramp from the Ninth Street Tunnel (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2020/12/permanent-lane-adjustments-coming-to-i-395-gw-parkway/?utm_campaign=WTOP%20Morning%20Newsletter%20B&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_term=AB%20Blasttest%20B). The article also mentions various changes around Memorial Circle. No photos included.

I hated that merge out of the tunnel. Maybe this weekend I can check it out, although I'm not optimistic due in part to the bad weather forecast for Friday.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on December 29, 2020, 10:22:37 AM
The WTOP article has a nighttime photo where you can kinda see it.  Looks like the Maine Ave on-ramp merges, and then the 9th St Tunnel ramp gets its own lane.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 29, 2020, 01:27:12 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 29, 2020, 10:22:37 AM
The WTOP article has a nighttime photo where you can kinda see it.  Looks like the Maine Ave on-ramp merges, and then the 9th St Tunnel ramp gets its own lane.


Yeah, I'd like to see it from road level.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on December 29, 2020, 02:06:49 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing the on-ramp from Independence onto the 9th St Tunnel restriped. Total blind merge with a massive wall to block your view. It's literally a stop-and-floor-it situation, or hit it full speed and hope for the best.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on January 11, 2021, 04:45:33 PM
Center Leg Tunnel to become I-195:

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/01/move-over-i-395-southeast-freeway-3rd-street-tunnel-to-be-renumbered/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 11, 2021, 04:48:05 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on January 11, 2021, 04:45:33 PM
Center Leg Tunnel to become I-195:

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/01/move-over-i-395-southeast-freeway-3rd-street-tunnel-to-be-renumbered/

I had some old maps from 40 years ago or so that listed the tunnel as I-195. Guess they'll finally be accurate, though I have no idea whether I still have any of them.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 11, 2021, 07:14:42 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 11, 2021, 04:48:05 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on January 11, 2021, 04:45:33 PM
Center Leg Tunnel to become I-195:

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/01/move-over-i-395-southeast-freeway-3rd-street-tunnel-to-be-renumbered/

I had some old maps from 40 years ago or so that listed the tunnel as I-195. Guess they'll finally be accurate, though I have no idea whether I still have any of them.

I have never seen a sign reading I-195 in D.C.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 12, 2021, 07:44:23 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 11, 2021, 07:14:42 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 11, 2021, 04:48:05 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on January 11, 2021, 04:45:33 PM
Center Leg Tunnel to become I-195:

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/01/move-over-i-395-southeast-freeway-3rd-street-tunnel-to-be-renumbered/

I had some old maps from 40 years ago or so that listed the tunnel as I-195. Guess they'll finally be accurate, though I have no idea whether I still have any of them.

I have never seen a sign reading I-195 in D.C.

I haven't either, but I've absolutely seen it on maps. Dave Dildine said he's heard the same from other people.

Of course, then you have the people (Bob Marbourg being the most vocal until he retired) who insist–wrongly, IMO–that having I-695 in DC is just too confusing because of the Baltimore Beltway. So those people should surely object to I-195 as well since another route of that name serves BWI. (There's also an I-395 in Baltimore, of course, but there were no complaints about that.) Can't use I-495 because of the Capital Beltway (that would indeed be confusing for people, IMO). Can't use I-595 because of the possibility that the unsigned one in Maryland is someday signed, like DC's I-695. Can't use I-795 or 895 since those are used near Baltimore.

Clearly, then, the tunnel must be numbered I-995.


Edited to add: I stand by the comment I made in response to Dr. Gridlock's 2012 column about the posting of I-695 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/i-695-is-still-an-unfamiliar-sign-on-dc-highways/2012/08/20/770f623e-e1a0-11e1-ae7f-d2a13e249eb2_story.html), which is linked in the Wikipedia article about DC's I-695. It's probably paywalled, so I'll post some excerpts:

Quote
Dear Dr. Gridlock:

I am in town visiting family and am very familiar with the area. There is a sign [nearing the 11th Street bridge] labeled "I-695 to I-395."  The last time I checked, Interstate 695 is the Baltimore Beltway, which most certainly does not connect to Interstate 395. I know the sign should say Interstate 295, but a tourist or out-of-towner might not.

Donella Oleston, Seattle

Ms. Oleston's letter made me think she is a pompous moron.

Dr. Gridlock's response talked about the history of the I-695 number in DC and then concluded with the following:

QuoteEven knowledgeable drivers such as Oleston might think they've discovered some interstate wormhole that's about to deposit them on the Baltimore Beltway, another I-695 that's 35 miles to the north.

A driver from New York might look at the I-695 sign and think of a highway spur in the Bronx. The Federal Highway Administration uses the three digits to mark spurs or loops that connect with the main route. I-95's route is so long that three-digit numbers repeat themselves. Southbound drivers looping around Boston via Interstate 495 might think they've saved a lot of time and gas reaching the Capital Beltway.

And don't think those unsigned interstates are so weird, either. A driver leaving 295 for eastbound Route 50 in Prince George's County might be aware that it's also known as the John Hanson Highway but might not know its stealth designation: Interstate 595.

Some of those points struck me as ludicrous because 3di numbers have been duplicated across jurisdictions for many years, certainly since before I was born. I posted the following comment:

Quote
Dr. Gridlock, I have to say this time I find your analysis a little lacking when you suggest that the duplicate three-digit Interstate numbers in different states/cities might confuse people. First, I think if someone's confused between I-495 in Massachusetts and the DC Beltway that person probably isn't intelligent enough to have a driver's license. Second and more importantly, we've had I-395 in Virginia/DC (the major commuter route) and Baltimore (the spur route leading to Camden Yards) for years with no problem. Same for I-195 in Richmond and near BWI Airport. Same with I-295 in DC/Maryland, Delaware/New Jersey, New York...... etc.

The most important point with respect to DC's I-695, however, is that the vast majority of the people who will encounter the sign are local drivers who know where they're going regardless of what the sign says. (Consider that even the person who wrote the letter you printed admits that she knew where she was going and was merely taken aback by the sign.) The long-distance drivers who either seldom drive in this area or who drive through DC and Baltimore once or twice a year at Thanksgiving time and maybe on a summer vacation are unlikely ever to encounter DC's I-695 because they'll be swinging around DC on the Beltway (either because their sat-navs take them that way or because it's the only way they know). The chances of any real confusion are thus seriously minimized. I'd also suggest that when the overhead sign says "I-695 to I-395/Capitol Hill" it's simply not reasonable for a driver to think he's suddenly in Baltimore in defiance of all common sense. Capitol Hill is not in Baltimore!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Henry on January 12, 2021, 10:56:40 AM
This comes just ten years after I-695 signs went up for the first time...I agree that DC just missed its opportunity to sign the first-ever I-995.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on January 12, 2021, 11:15:00 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 12, 2021, 07:44:23 AM
Of course, then you have the people (Bob Marbourg being the most vocal until he retired) who insist–wrongly, IMO–that having I-695 in DC is just too confusing because of the Baltimore Beltway. So those people should surely object to I-195 as well since another route of that name serves BWI. (There's also an I-395 in Baltimore, of course, but there were no complaints about that.)
Those people could even make the case that I-195 is more confusing since unlike I-695, there's also another I-195 down in Richmond in addition to the Baltimore one!   :pan:

Quote from: Henry on January 12, 2021, 10:56:40 AM
This comes just ten years after I-695 signs went up for the first time...I agree that DC just missed its opportunity to sign the first-ever I-995.
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 12, 2021, 07:44:23 AM
Clearly, then, the tunnel must be numbered I-995.
Agreed...what a missed opportunity to give I-95 a complete set of children (and most importantly, allow my avatar to finally see the light of day  :bigass:)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 12, 2021, 11:19:14 AM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on January 12, 2021, 11:15:00 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 12, 2021, 07:44:23 AM
Of course, then you have the people (Bob Marbourg being the most vocal until he retired) who insist–wrongly, IMO–that having I-695 in DC is just too confusing because of the Baltimore Beltway. So those people should surely object to I-195 as well since another route of that name serves BWI. (There's also an I-395 in Baltimore, of course, but there were no complaints about that.)
Those people could even make the case that I-195 is more confusing since unlike I-695, there's also another I-195 down in Richmond in addition to the Baltimore one!   :pan:

....

Definitely true. I would say that to Dave Dildine except that 240 characters isn't enough space and I don't want to be bothered with a string of tweets cataloguing the various x95s.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on January 12, 2021, 01:18:10 PM
I welcome the changes proposed in the article.  DC's 695 will be no more and will instead become part of 395 that will now end at DC 295/I-295.  The spur route through the 3rd street tunnel is now its own number, I-195, and is meant for local traffic.

The trick to making all of this work is through good signage and hopefully proper use of control cities.

1) See this sign at what will be the future end of I-395:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8721785,-76.9900146,3a,75y,150.74h,90.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLSYeU6V5jiYrYE8Y8aAUXA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It would be helpful if all of the shields are on one line at the top and then leaving room for control cities.

I-295 SOUTH to 95 495                   DC-295 NORTH to 50
National Harbor                               Baltimore
Alexandria                                       Annapolis

2) This sign at the future southern end of I-195, the left sign should be changed to repace 695 with 395 and to add in the control cities of Anacostia and Baltimore.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8848448,-77.0127492,3a,75y,202.17h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNiv-cDjs_VczvyrL__UX9Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

3) And, of course, probably the worst sign bridge with regards to confusion:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8823739,-77.0186257,3a,75y,102.85h,88.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si9ozz-x0Enr5-VeQ0Ws5Iw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

This needs a total redo.  There is just too much information for out of town drivers to understand at high speed.  Information overload.  I would do this:

                                              EXIT ???                  Vertical Clearance HM
395 NORTH to 295  295           C Street S.W.*           195 NORTH
Anacostia                                US Capitol                 US Senate
Baltimore                                The House                 Union Station
v        v                v                 EXIT v  ONLY                 v

<I'd get rid of the sign for S Capitol Street, but leave it at the next sign bridge.  The information for all of the different train services at Union Station should either be removed completely or put on a roadside sign, not on the sign bridge.  I'd remove the reference to D St NW as that is now an exit for 195 north on the other side of the tunnel.  The Union Station wording on this sign is helpful to guide people to the train station and will allow total removal of the sign with all of the train services from the sign bridge.>

*  I am not a fan of signing C Street here, as the C street by this exit is closed to traffic (except House members and staff).  IMO Washington Ave SW would be better here, as well as any exit for D street SW that exists for those traveling along the SW freeway in the westbound direction.  It would mean that both exits would have the same name and it would lessen confusion for those heading to the exits for C street NW or D street NW to reach the Senate office bulidings.   I rarely drive by it, but I'm sure the following sign bridge is also confusing:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.883712,-77.0120596,3a,75y,0.08h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLS40AMcFoCuFj2j6YhK26Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Jmiles32 on January 12, 2021, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on January 12, 2021, 11:15:00 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 12, 2021, 07:44:23 AM
Of course, then you have the people (Bob Marbourg being the most vocal until he retired) who insist–wrongly, IMO–that having I-695 in DC is just too confusing because of the Baltimore Beltway. So those people should surely object to I-195 as well since another route of that name serves BWI. (There's also an I-395 in Baltimore, of course, but there were no complaints about that.)
Those people could even make the case that I-195 is more confusing since unlike I-695, there's also another I-195 down in Richmond in addition to the Baltimore one!   :pan:

Furthermore, the distance between these I-195s will actually be a few miles closer than the I-695s are currently.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 12, 2021, 03:20:48 PM
I remember some maps showing the Interstate 395 designation following the Southeast Freeway, despite the fact that it has always been Interstate 695 (even if it was unsigned until 2011). I'm not sure if the renumbering will make much of a difference. Perhaps when the Southwest and the Southeast Freeways were constructed, the freeways could have been built so that Interstate 395 (then 95) seamlessly transitioned from the Southwest Freeway into the Center Leg Freeway (and vice versa), and that one had to exit to continue to and from the Southeast Freeway; the opposite of how it was constructed. Personally, I would leave the existing numbers as-is.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 12, 2021, 04:34:17 PM
With the redesigned 11th Street Bridge, they could almost do away with I-395 altogether and have I-295 run from where it currently does up over the bridge and then back down what is now I-395 to the Springfield Interchange. But the I-395 number is so entrenched that it would be a radical change, whereas getting rid of I-695 would not be.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Roadsguy on January 12, 2021, 05:27:33 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 12, 2021, 04:34:17 PM
With the redesigned 11th Street Bridge, they could almost do away with I-395 altogether and have I-295 run from where it currently does up over the bridge and then back down what is now I-395 to the Springfield Interchange. But the I-395 number is so entrenched that it would be a radical change, whereas getting rid of I-695 would not be.

I'd leave 295 alone since I-295 and DC 295 function as a single route as-is. A better option would be replacing 395 in VA with 695, leaving 395 on just the spur through the 3rd Street Tunnel.

What they're doing is probably less confusing for the public, though, and doesn't require VDOT's involvement. I do agree that they should've gone with 995 though. :)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on January 12, 2021, 05:38:29 PM
Plus Virginia already uses I-295, so you can't just extend that number along I-695 and I-395.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 12, 2021, 06:36:56 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 12, 2021, 05:38:29 PM
Plus Virginia already uses I-295, so you can't just extend that number along I-695 and I-395.

An excellent point. How the heck did I overlook that?  :spin:

I suppose there's a valid question whether the tunnel even needs an Interstate number.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on January 12, 2021, 08:08:56 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 12, 2021, 05:27:33 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 12, 2021, 04:34:17 PM
With the redesigned 11th Street Bridge, they could almost do away with I-395 altogether and have I-295 run from where it currently does up over the bridge and then back down what is now I-395 to the Springfield Interchange. But the I-395 number is so entrenched that it would be a radical change, whereas getting rid of I-695 would not be.

I'd leave 295 alone since I-295 and DC 295 function as a single route as-is.

This is true and another improvement that was enabled when 695 was first signed over the SE Fwy.  I always thought if confusing that based on the original construction DC-295 was a spur off of I-295.  It is much easier to view the Anacostia Fwy - Kenilworth Ave expy - and BW Pkwy as one roadway, ideally with one number.

And we do come close to that.  From National Harbor, you have I-295 that then defaults onto DC-295 north of the I-695 interchange, then for a short bit, once you cross the MD line, you are on MD-201, and then onto unnumbered BW Pkwy run by the National Park Service, and then once you are north of MD-175, you are on MD-295 until you hit Russell Street as the gateway to Downtown Baltimore.

Of course, it would be far better if the whole road were simply 295, and the NPS route were also numbered as NPS-295.  That would really tie the whole corridor together.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: citrus on January 12, 2021, 08:28:34 PM
Anyone know if this will also result in a change in direction? It seems to me that new 395 in DC should be signed East-West.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: odditude on January 12, 2021, 08:58:05 PM
Quote from: citrus on January 12, 2021, 08:28:34 PM
Anyone know if this will also result in a change in direction? It seems to me that new 395 in DC should be signed East-West.

ehhh... while i would agree with you if we were just looking at i-395 in a vacuum, it would result in another situation where the spur Eastbound would go be northwest of the mainline which is heading Northbound. i'm not a fan of this in PA (at the I-95/I-295/Turnpike interchange), and i'm not a fan of it here.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on January 12, 2021, 09:47:20 PM
I'm team 995 myself. That would also give DC the highest number.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on January 13, 2021, 08:28:43 AM
Quote from: RoadsguyA better option would be replacing 395 in VA with 695,

It's worth noting that part of existing I-395 is in Fairfax County, which also has a SR 695 along Idylwood Rd and Kirby Rd in Dunn Loring and McLean.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 13, 2021, 09:11:00 AM
Maybe DC should take a page out of California's book and number the tunnel as I-150.

:bigass:
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on January 13, 2021, 09:35:28 AM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 12, 2021, 05:27:33 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 12, 2021, 04:34:17 PM
With the redesigned 11th Street Bridge, they could almost do away with I-395 altogether and have I-295 run from where it currently does up over the bridge and then back down what is now I-395 to the Springfield Interchange. But the I-395 number is so entrenched that it would be a radical change, whereas getting rid of I-695 would not be.

I'd leave 295 alone since I-295 and DC 295 function as a single route as-is. A better option would be replacing 395 in VA with 695, leaving 395 on just the spur through the 3rd Street Tunnel.

What they're doing is probably less confusing for the public, though, and doesn't require VDOT's involvement. I do agree that they should've gone with 995 though. :)

I feel like renumbering the whole thing I-695 would have made more sense (and leaving the Center Leg as I-395), since the route will now connect two interstates and is basically a loop, but you've got a point about 395 being fairly entrenched in the area.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 13, 2021, 09:44:08 AM
^^^

Of course, if people claim to find it confusing to have the minuscule route in DC bearing the I-695 number–a claim I think is ridiculous, of course–then surely it would be far more confusing to them to have a considerably longer route bearing that number. I could perhaps see some greater legitimacy to the claim if I-695 ran from the Springfield Interchange up Shirley Highway and the Southwest—Southeast Freeway to the 11th Street Bridge. I still don't think it would be as big a problem as some people would make it out to be, but I recognize there would be a lot more people claiming confusion.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 13, 2021, 11:01:22 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 13, 2021, 09:44:08 AM
^^^

Of course, if people claim to find it confusing to have the minuscule route in DC bearing the I-695 number–a claim I think is ridiculous, of course–then surely it would be far more confusing to them to have a considerably longer route bearing that number. I could perhaps see some greater legitimacy to the claim if I-695 ran from the Springfield Interchange up Shirley Highway and the Southwest—Southeast Freeway to the 11th Street Bridge. I still don't think it would be as big a problem as some people would make it out to be, but I recognize there would be a lot more people claiming confusion.

If it were I-695 from Springfield across D.C. (and maybe including what is now I-295 in D.C. and Maryland), then you have two Maryland I-695's, and a potential for confusion for out-of-town people thinking that I-695 in Springfield is the same road as I-695 around Baltimore.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 13, 2021, 11:14:21 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 13, 2021, 11:01:22 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 13, 2021, 09:44:08 AM
^^^

Of course, if people claim to find it confusing to have the minuscule route in DC bearing the I-695 number–a claim I think is ridiculous, of course–then surely it would be far more confusing to them to have a considerably longer route bearing that number. I could perhaps see some greater legitimacy to the claim if I-695 ran from the Springfield Interchange up Shirley Highway and the Southwest—Southeast Freeway to the 11th Street Bridge. I still don't think it would be as big a problem as some people would make it out to be, but I recognize there would be a lot more people claiming confusion.

If it were I-695 from Springfield across D.C. (and maybe including what is now I-295 in D.C. and Maryland), then you have two Maryland I-695's, and a potential for confusion for out-of-town people thinking that I-695 in Springfield is the same road as I-695 around Baltimore.

I assumed WillWeaverRVA was referring solely to the existing I-395 and I-695, not to I-295, because the comment from Roadsguy to which he was responding referred to leaving I-295 and DC-295 alone. Otherwise, I would completely agree with you–changing the existing I-295 in DC to I-695 wouldn't work for the same reason why my brain fart—induced comment about extending I-295 down I-395 to the Springfield Interchange wouldn't work, as vdeane correctly noted.

In other words, I was assuming WillWeaverRVA meant I-295 and DC-295 would stay as they are, but I-395 would be truncated to include solely the Center Leg Freeway (more commonly known as the Third Street Tunnel) and I-695 would be extended down to Springfield to cover the rest of what has long been I-395. I tend to think that scenario would provoke more confusion, even though the putative I-695 wouldn't enter Maryland, and I also think I-395 is so well-entrenched in the DC area (having been here since the 1970s) that it would be counterproductive to change the Virginia portion.

Edited to add: froggie makes a valid comment as well about the existence of a secondary route 695 in Fairfax County, though I daresay that number is not well-known and would not itself be a reason for widespread confusion. Off the top of my head, now that the Fairfax County Parkway is no longer Route 7100, the only secondary route number I routinely hear used is Route 644, which the traffic reporters refer to that way in no small part because it changes names when it crosses I-95 (and it's also likely faster to say "644" than "Old Keene Mill Road" even though they're the same number of syllables). Of course there are BGSs that list secondary route numbers (Van Dorn Street, Telegraph Road, Braddock Road, and Gallows Road all come to mind on the Beltway, as does Edsall Road on I-395), but that doesn't mean area residents ever use those numbers. As you know, my neighborhood is near Van Dorn Street and I have never used "Route 613" in giving directions in the almost 20 years I've lived in my house.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Roadsguy on January 13, 2021, 11:24:59 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 13, 2021, 11:01:22 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 13, 2021, 09:44:08 AM
^^^

Of course, if people claim to find it confusing to have the minuscule route in DC bearing the I-695 number–a claim I think is ridiculous, of course–then surely it would be far more confusing to them to have a considerably longer route bearing that number. I could perhaps see some greater legitimacy to the claim if I-695 ran from the Springfield Interchange up Shirley Highway and the Southwest—Southeast Freeway to the 11th Street Bridge. I still don't think it would be as big a problem as some people would make it out to be, but I recognize there would be a lot more people claiming confusion.

If it were I-695 from Springfield across D.C. (and maybe including what is now I-295 in D.C. and Maryland), then you have two Maryland I-695's, and a potential for confusion for out-of-town people thinking that I-695 in Springfield is the same road as I-695 around Baltimore.

I would expect the extended 695 to end at I-/DC 295 as it does today, since as I said earlier, the two 295s function as a single route, though the 295/695 interchange does for some reason include the I-295-to-I-695 movements as the freeway mainline for some reason, perhaps a mentality holdover from when I-295 officially made that movement. (I do think they should renumber DC 295's mileage and exits to be an extension of I-295's mileage, eliminating the weird setup where the two 295's are signed as numbered exits from each other despite both being continuations of the Anacostia Freeway.)

The SR 695 in Fairfax County (Does VDOT duplicate secondary route numbers in different counties?) could probably be renumbered fairly easily, but again, the advantage to what DDOT is actually doing is that VDOT isn't involved at all. I doubt they'd be too eager to renumber two entire routes, including a major Interstate (not to mention getting Transurban involved to change all the "395 Express Lanes" materials), just to help DDOT tidy up their route network a bit.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: hotdogPi on January 13, 2021, 11:25:58 AM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 13, 2021, 11:24:59 AM
(Does VDOT duplicate secondary route numbers in different counties?)

Yes.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on January 13, 2021, 11:37:47 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 13, 2021, 11:14:21 AM
I assumed WillWeaverRVA was referring solely to the existing I-395 and I-695, not to I-295, because the comment from Roadsguy to which he was responding referred to leaving I-295 and DC-295 alone. Otherwise, I would completely agree with you–changing the existing I-295 in DC to I-695 wouldn't work for the same reason why my brain fart—induced comment about extending I-295 down I-395 to the Springfield Interchange wouldn't work, as vdeane correctly noted.

In other words, I was assuming WillWeaverRVA meant I-295 and DC-295 would stay as they are, but I-395 would be truncated to include solely the Center Leg Freeway (more commonly known as the Third Street Tunnel) and I-695 would be extended down to Springfield to cover the rest of what has long been I-395. I tend to think that scenario would provoke more confusion, even though the putative I-695 wouldn't enter Maryland, and I also think I-395 is so well-entrenched in the DC area (having been here since the 1970s) that it would be counterproductive to change the Virginia portion.

Yeah, that's where I was heading.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on January 13, 2021, 11:41:45 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 13, 2021, 11:01:22 AM
If it were I-695 from Springfield across D.C. (and maybe including what is now I-295 in D.C. and Maryland), then you have two Maryland I-695's, and a potential for confusion for out-of-town people thinking that I-695 in Springfield is the same road as I-695 around Baltimore.
I do wonder if having I-695 present at Springfield would trip up more long-distance traffic coming up I-95 from the Carolinas/Hampton Roads who upon reaching this sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6740009,-77.2397687,3a,75y,69.27h,86.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUvOaeT5okRQZPZnSgZK2iQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) (and then the exit 170 signage a few miles further), might wonder why they're now being told to take I-695 to Washington but I-95 to Baltimore, when they're probably more well aware of the I-695 Baltimore Beltway.  At least the current DC I-695 isn't "seen" by long-distance traffic that sticks with I-95 around the Capital Beltway.

(Then again, I believe GPS's often offer I-395/I-695/DC 295/B-W Parkway as a thru route across DC ever since the 11th street Bridges were reconstructed...)

Quote from: Roadsguy on January 13, 2021, 11:24:59 AM
...the advantage to what DDOT is actually doing is that VDOT isn't involved at all. I doubt they'd be too eager to renumber two entire routes, including a major Interstate (not to mention getting Transurban involved to change all the "395 Express Lanes" materials), just to help DDOT tidy up their route network a bit.
Having spent time as an on-site consultant for a DOT, I wholeheartedly agree that the fewer agencies involved, the better! :banghead:

Quote from: Alps on January 12, 2021, 09:47:20 PM
I'm team 995 myself. That would also give DC the highest number.
Having the highest number also be the one that gets closest to the seat of the federal government seems oddly fitting as well, IMHO.

(Although FWIW, USDOT would still be closer to current I-695/future-realigned I-395... :D)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on January 13, 2021, 12:07:50 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 13, 2021, 09:44:08 AM
^^^

Of course, if people claim to find it confusing to have the minuscule route in DC bearing the I-695 number–a claim I think is ridiculous, of course–then surely it would be far more confusing to them to have a considerably longer route bearing that number. I could perhaps see some greater legitimacy to the claim if I-695 ran from the Springfield Interchange up Shirley Highway and the Southwest—Southeast Freeway to the 11th Street Bridge. I still don't think it would be as big a problem as some people would make it out to be, but I recognize there would be a lot more people claiming confusion.

While an interstate purist would prefer an even number like 695, since it will now connect 2 interstates, we certainly do not need the confusion of renumbering the entire Shirley Highway.  Under the current plan, only the short highway connections east of the interchange with the 3d street tunnel will get renumbered.

And there may be a good call to make this E-W through DC, but there is no reason to change the cardinal direction in VA.  One good argument to make the change in DC is the confusion of driving through the 11th st bridge.  From 295, you are driving in cardinal direction north over the bridge before you hit the SE Fwy, then you head cardinal direction west along the SE Fwy and the SW Fwy until you get to the 14th st bridge.  It would be more confusing, IMO, to sign this as 395 south, especially while heading north over the 11th st bridge.

295 around Trenton has its own problems and I'm not sure that it's relevant to the discussion here.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on January 13, 2021, 12:46:31 PM
^^^

Another option for DDOT is to take the approach VDOT does with the wrong-way portions of I-295 & I-64 and just omit signing cardinal directions - instead, go with "I-395 TO I-295/DC 295" and "I-395 Downtown". (Not unlike how it's currently done for I-695...Now that I think about it, the existing signs for I-695 at both termini already omit cardinal directions, so I wouldn't be surprised if DDOT just continues that precedent.)

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on January 13, 2021, 01:18:36 PM
Wasn't I-395 changed in 1984? I heard from a reliable source on here whom I know in person that it was never signed all these years, but 395 and 695 shields were never changed.

As we all know that is pretty common among state agencies.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 13, 2021, 05:27:36 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 13, 2021, 01:18:36 PM
Wasn't I-395 changed in 1984? I heard from a reliable source on here whom I know in person that it was never signed all these years, but 395 and 695 shields were never changed.

As we all know that is pretty common among state agencies.

No.  It was I-95 up to about 1974, then it I-395 replaced all of I-95 inside  the Capital Beltway. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: sturmde on January 13, 2021, 05:39:06 PM
Frankly, let's renumber it all as I-666 inside the beltway. ;)
.
Seriously though, I'd have renumbered 395 and 695 to 595, and left the Center Leg 395.  Since Maryland's 595 isn't signed, there's then no confusion. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 13, 2021, 05:46:45 PM
Interstate 95 was renumbered to Interstate 395 in 1977, after all of 95 north of New York Avenue was canceled. The Southeast Freeway has always been Interstate 695, but it was not signed until 2011 when the 11th Street Bridges were renumbered from Interstate 295 to Interstate 695. 695 was once proposed to continue westward with then-95 along the Southwest Freeway, and then along an unbuilt tunnel past the Lincoln Memorial to terminate at Interstate 66. A later proposal was to extend 695 east of its former terminus at Pennsylvania Ave./Barney Circle to connect with DC 295. That was killed in favor of making the 11th Street Bridges interchange with Interstate/DC 295 from a partial interchange into a full interchange, which was completed in 2011.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 13, 2021, 06:28:57 PM
Quote from: sturmde on January 13, 2021, 05:39:06 PM
Frankly, let's renumber it all as I-666 inside the beltway. ;)
.
Seriously though, I'd have renumbered 395 and 695 to 595, and left the Center Leg 395.  Since Maryland's 595 isn't signed, there's then no confusion. 

I don't think that's a good option because I-595 might wind up signed someday. For precedent, just look at the roads we are discussing in DC. I never expected I-695 to be signed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on January 13, 2021, 07:25:10 PM
I believe we've come full circle. I found some early 60's freeway proposal maps and was going to post them, but figured first I'd see if they were already here. First page of this thread is a discussion related to the 2009 announcement that the about to be rebuilt 11th Street bridge complex would be changed from I-295 to I-695.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on January 13, 2021, 09:23:07 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on January 13, 2021, 12:46:31 PM
^^^

Another option for DDOT is to take the approach VDOT does with the wrong-way portions of I-295 & I-64 and just omit signing cardinal directions - instead, go with "I-395 TO I-295/DC 295" and "I-395 Downtown". (Not unlike how it's currently done for I-695...Now that I think about it, the existing signs for I-695 at both termini already omit cardinal directions, so I wouldn't be surprised if DDOT just continues that precedent.)

That should work fine, but it is important to include as many relevant controls as possible.  Baltimore, Annapolis, Downtown DC, Richmond, Anacostia, National Harbor, and Alexandria are all relevant controls that may be useful to denote different directions along this key stretch of highway between the 11th st bridge and the 14th st bridge.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on January 13, 2021, 09:55:52 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on January 13, 2021, 07:25:10 PM
I believe we've come full circle. I found some early 60's freeway proposal maps and was going to post them, but figured first I'd see if they were already here. First page of this thread is a discussion related to the 2009 announcement that the about to be rebuilt 11th Street bridge complex would be changed from I-295 to I-695.
Wouldn't full circle be them redesignating the bridge again from I-395 back to I-295?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 15, 2021, 06:41:11 PM
The Roosevelt Bridge, Memorial Bridge, and the 14th Street Bridge will be closed from Tuesday through Thursday. Oddly, however, the local media keep adding "the Interstate 395 Bridge" to that list tonight. I'm utterly baffled as to why local TV channels seem not to understand where and what the 14th Street Bridge is.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 16, 2021, 11:08:17 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 15, 2021, 06:41:11 PM
The Roosevelt Bridge, Memorial Bridge, and the 14th Street Bridge will be closed from Tuesday through Thursday. Oddly, however, the local media keep adding "the Interstate 395 Bridge" to that list tonight. I'm utterly baffled as to why local TV channels seem not to understand where and what the 14th Street Bridge is.

Official VDOT press release: 
Virginia Interstate and Bridge Closures in Advance of Presidential Inauguration (https://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/northern-virginia/2021/virginia-interstate-and-bridge-closures-in-advance-of-presidential-inauguration1-15-2021.asp?fbclid=IwAR2mS2rD6RyZp35SlZ_4Aig7wKVWCcbrxm4Pkv_WNaDY05bxYpso86zE2T4)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Old Dominionite on January 17, 2021, 03:09:07 PM
I have no problem with I-395 replacing I-695, although I think it should keep its north/south cardinal directions. The roadway isn't long enough to merit changing directions to east/west at the river. "North" is away from Virginia; "South" is towards Virginia. Keep it simple.

As for the current I-395 stretch up to New York Avenue, I wish DDOT would have suggested "795" or "995." I'm not a fan of 3di spurs off 3di routes having a lower number than the route from which they're branching.

With that said, I think the chance of confusing a DC I-195 with MD's I-195 is pretty low...
...I hope.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: hotdogPi on January 17, 2021, 03:16:43 PM
The entire I-395, even the Virginia section, is more east-west than north-south.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on January 17, 2021, 04:34:28 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 17, 2021, 03:16:43 PM
The entire I-395, even the Virginia section, is more east-west than north-south.
Doesn't feel that way.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on January 17, 2021, 05:14:09 PM
Quote from: Old Dominionite on January 17, 2021, 03:09:07 PM
I have no problem with I-395 replacing I-695, although I think it should keep its north/south cardinal directions. The roadway isn't long enough to merit changing directions to east/west at the river. "North" is away from Virginia; "South" is towards Virginia. Keep it simple.

As for the current I-395 stretch up to New York Avenue, I wish DDOT would have suggested "795" or "995." I'm not a fan of 3di spurs off 3di routes having a lower number than the route from which they're branching.

With that said, I think the chance of confusing a DC I-195 with MD's I-195 is pretty low...
...I hope.
Someone comes up 95 knowing "take 95 to 195 to the airport". Oblivious, they go straight onto 395. They then see 195 and take it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 17, 2021, 05:37:55 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 17, 2021, 05:14:09 PM
Quote from: Old Dominionite on January 17, 2021, 03:09:07 PM
I have no problem with I-395 replacing I-695, although I think it should keep its north/south cardinal directions. The roadway isn't long enough to merit changing directions to east/west at the river. "North" is away from Virginia; "South" is towards Virginia. Keep it simple.

As for the current I-395 stretch up to New York Avenue, I wish DDOT would have suggested "795" or "995." I'm not a fan of 3di spurs off 3di routes having a lower number than the route from which they're branching.

With that said, I think the chance of confusing a DC I-195 with MD's I-195 is pretty low...
...I hope.
Someone comes up 95 knowing "take 95 to 195 to the airport". Oblivious, they go straight onto 395. They then see 195 and take it.

Theoretically, sure, but man that's an aweful long way to get to BWI. I have to think anyone coming south of DC is gonna go for Dulles or Reagan unless they are REALLY trying to penny-pinch.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 17, 2021, 05:42:12 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 17, 2021, 05:37:55 PM
Quote from: Alps on January 17, 2021, 05:14:09 PM
Quote from: Old Dominionite on January 17, 2021, 03:09:07 PM
I have no problem with I-395 replacing I-695, although I think it should keep its north/south cardinal directions. The roadway isn't long enough to merit changing directions to east/west at the river. "North" is away from Virginia; "South" is towards Virginia. Keep it simple.

As for the current I-395 stretch up to New York Avenue, I wish DDOT would have suggested "795" or "995." I'm not a fan of 3di spurs off 3di routes having a lower number than the route from which they're branching.

With that said, I think the chance of confusing a DC I-195 with MD's I-195 is pretty low...
...I hope.
Someone comes up 95 knowing "take 95 to 195 to the airport". Oblivious, they go straight onto 395. They then see 195 and take it.

Theoretically, sure, but man that's an aweful long way to get to BWI. I have to think anyone coming south of DC is gonna go for Dulles or Reagan unless they are REALLY trying to penny-pinch.

Heh, define "REALLY." I once drove two hours on a Friday afternoon to get to BWI (and I live just south of the Beltway) because the airfare was $500 cheaper than either of the other airports. To me, that's a no-brainer!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 17, 2021, 06:19:27 PM
Of the 10 times I've flown to DC in the last few years, I think seven of those times I flew directly into Reagan; the other three times were to BWI. I don't consider that to be anywhere near an awful drive. The drive back has always terminated in Arlington.

The worst part of the drive was consistently the Anacostia Fwy. Once we got to the 11th St Bridges, it was smooth sailing from there.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 17, 2021, 06:23:18 PM
I'll remind you both that he said "someone coming UP 95". That presumes you are considerably south of the beltway. If you are near the beltway, then you'd probably just say "follow the beltway to 95 north in Maryland" etc.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Old Dominionite on January 17, 2021, 07:09:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 17, 2021, 04:34:28 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 17, 2021, 03:16:43 PM
The entire I-395, even the Virginia section, is more east-west than north-south.
Doesn't feel that way.

I agree. I've driven on I-395 countless times over the last 20+ years. Aside from the fact that its alignment was originally supposed to be part of I-95, it functions as a north/south spur route.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 18 wheel warrior on January 20, 2021, 01:29:12 AM
Actually it WAS I-95 until it was decided that the highway wouldn't be extended beyond NY Ave NW. Not sure why that project was scrapped other than likely the NIMBY syndrome.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 20, 2021, 07:37:00 AM
Quote from: 18 wheel warrior on January 20, 2021, 01:29:12 AM
Actually it WAS I-95 until it was decided that the highway wouldn't be extended beyond NY Ave NW. Not sure why that project was scrapped other than likely the NIMBY syndrome.

Yeah we know.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 20, 2021, 08:28:00 AM
Quote from: 18 wheel warrior on January 20, 2021, 01:29:12 AM
Actually it WAS I-95 until it was decided that the highway wouldn't be extended beyond NY Ave NW. Not sure why that project was scrapped other than likely the NIMBY syndrome.

You don't say.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 20, 2021, 02:08:46 PM
Well, neither Google Maps nor Wikipedia have been updated to include the new Interstate 195, or that 695 is now part of 395. The Interstate 395 (Virginia—District of Columbia) and Interstate 695 (District of Columbia) Wikipedia pages only include a paragraph about the approved 695-to-395 and the 395-195 plans, so it looks like the conversion hasn't officially occurred yet, even though it has allegedly been approved.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 20, 2021, 02:10:09 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 20, 2021, 02:08:46 PM
Well, neither Google Maps nor Wikipedia have been updated to include the new Interstate 195, or that 695 is now part of 395. The Interstate 395 (Virginia—District of Columbia) and Interstate 695 (District of Columbia) Wikipedia pages only include a paragraph about the approved 695-to-395 and the 395-195 plans, so it looks like the conversion hasn't officially occurred yet, even though it has allegedly been approved.

I just heard about it over the weekend as something that was approved, so I imagine it will take a bit before signage goes up. That said, with all the closures for inauguration, it would've been a good time to do the signage changes.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 20, 2021, 03:50:05 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 20, 2021, 02:10:09 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 20, 2021, 02:08:46 PM
Well, neither Google Maps nor Wikipedia have been updated to include the new Interstate 195, or that 695 is now part of 395. The Interstate 395 (Virginia—District of Columbia) and Interstate 695 (District of Columbia) Wikipedia pages only include a paragraph about the approved 695-to-395 and the 395-195 plans, so it looks like the conversion hasn't officially occurred yet, even though it has allegedly been approved.

I just heard about it over the weekend as something that was approved, so I imagine it will take a bit before signage goes up. That said, with all the closures for inauguration, it would've been a good time to do the signage changes.

I am not aware that DDOT has even issued an invitation for bids for the job, and probably will not for some months.  They probably have to create drawings showing what the revised signs will look like.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 20, 2021, 03:51:04 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 20, 2021, 03:50:05 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 20, 2021, 02:10:09 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 20, 2021, 02:08:46 PM
Well, neither Google Maps nor Wikipedia have been updated to include the new Interstate 195, or that 695 is now part of 395. The Interstate 395 (Virginia—District of Columbia) and Interstate 695 (District of Columbia) Wikipedia pages only include a paragraph about the approved 695-to-395 and the 395-195 plans, so it looks like the conversion hasn't officially occurred yet, even though it has allegedly been approved.

I just heard about it over the weekend as something that was approved, so I imagine it will take a bit before signage goes up. That said, with all the closures for inauguration, it would've been a good time to do the signage changes.

I am not aware that DDOT has even issued an invitation for bids for the job, and probably will not for some months.  They probably have to create drawings showing what the revised signs will look like.

That makes sense, I figured the signage change was still months away.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2021, 10:40:44 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 17, 2021, 06:19:27 PM
Of the 10 times I've flown to DC in the last few years, I think seven of those times I flew directly into Reagan; the other three times were to BWI. I don't consider that to be anywhere near an awful drive. The drive back has always terminated in Arlington.

The worst part of the drive was consistently the Anacostia Fwy. Once we got to the 11th St Bridges, it was smooth sailing from there.

The I-295 and especially DC-295 corridors have bottlenecks with congestion every weekday, and in the case of DC-295, usually every day.

There's a lane drop on northbound I-295 that narrows down to 2 lanes, where there is usually recurring congestion every weekday.

DC-295 has congestion (usually every day) southbound approaching East Capitol Street because of the lane drop there.  This is made worse by drivers not familiar with the D.C. area using "dumb" GPS units (no congestion feedback in determining route) that direct them to use B-W Parkway, MD-201, DC-295, I-695, I-395 instead of I-95 (from Baltimore) and the east side of the Capital Beltway across the W. Wilson Bridge because it is slightly shorter in terms of miles, but usually a bad choice in terms of congestion and travel time reliability.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 21, 2021, 01:21:56 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2021, 10:40:44 AM
DC-295 has congestion (usually every day) southbound approaching East Capitol Street because of the lane drop there.  This is made worse by drivers not familiar with the D.C. area using "dumb" GPS units (no congestion feedback in determining route) that direct them to use B-W Parkway, MD-201, DC-295, I-695, I-395 instead of the Capital Beltway across the W. Wilson Bridge because it is slightly shorter in terms of miles, but usually a bad choice in terms of congestion.

In our case, the drive was terminating near Rosslyn for the first couple years. It was really hard to justify using the beltway as, although certainly it would have had a higher average speed, it would have easily added 10 or 15 minutes no matter what. Mapping it out right now, it literally adds 20 miles using the beltway clockwise starting from the BW Parkway.

Depending on the traffic, we'd often escape the 395 via Maine Ave, and follow around the memorials to I-66. Otherwise it was 395 to the GW Parkway, up to Arlington Blvd and then to US-50.

The most utilized spot of the beltway for us is easily between 270 and the GW Parkway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on January 21, 2021, 04:51:27 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 21, 2021, 01:21:56 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2021, 10:40:44 AM
DC-295 has congestion (usually every day) southbound approaching East Capitol Street because of the lane drop there.  This is made worse by drivers not familiar with the D.C. area using "dumb" GPS units (no congestion feedback in determining route) that direct them to use B-W Parkway, MD-201, DC-295, I-695, I-395 instead of the Capital Beltway across the W. Wilson Bridge because it is slightly shorter in terms of miles, but usually a bad choice in terms of congestion.

In our case, the drive was terminating near Rosslyn for the first couple years. It was really hard to justify using the beltway as, although certainly it would have had a higher average speed, it would have easily added 10 or 15 minutes no matter what. Mapping it out right now, it literally adds 20 miles using the beltway clockwise starting from the BW Parkway.

Depending on the traffic, we'd often escape the 395 via Maine Ave, and follow around the memorials to I-66. Otherwise it was 395 to the GW Parkway, up to Arlington Blvd and then to US-50.

The most utilized spot of the beltway for us is easily between 270 and the GW Parkway.

The benefit of the completion of the 11th st bridge allows for a "poor man's" 95 through the city.  Springfield, VA - Arlington - Downtown DC- Bladensburg-Greenbelt.  Of course, it is much faster to go between Springfield and Greenbelt by way of I-495.  But, if either your origin or destination is well within the Beltway, it does make sense to use this roadway, as it is a full freeway, with chokepoints that CPZ has mentioned.

So, while of course, you would normally use the Beltway for a trip between VA and BWI airport, if the VA origin is well within the Beltway (and Rosslyn would definitely qualify), it would make sense to use the thru-DC freeway as opposed to going way out of your way (like taking the GW Pkwy to the American Legion Bridge to I-495 or the GW Pkwy to I-495 via Wilson Bridge
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 21, 2021, 06:19:11 PM
Quote from: mrsman on January 21, 2021, 04:51:27 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 21, 2021, 01:21:56 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2021, 10:40:44 AM
DC-295 has congestion (usually every day) southbound approaching East Capitol Street because of the lane drop there.  This is made worse by drivers not familiar with the D.C. area using "dumb" GPS units (no congestion feedback in determining route) that direct them to use B-W Parkway, MD-201, DC-295, I-695, I-395 instead of the Capital Beltway across the W. Wilson Bridge because it is slightly shorter in terms of miles, but usually a bad choice in terms of congestion.

In our case, the drive was terminating near Rosslyn for the first couple years. It was really hard to justify using the beltway as, although certainly it would have had a higher average speed, it would have easily added 10 or 15 minutes no matter what. Mapping it out right now, it literally adds 20 miles using the beltway clockwise starting from the BW Parkway.

Depending on the traffic, we'd often escape the 395 via Maine Ave, and follow around the memorials to I-66. Otherwise it was 395 to the GW Parkway, up to Arlington Blvd and then to US-50.

The most utilized spot of the beltway for us is easily between 270 and the GW Parkway.

The benefit of the completion of the 11th st bridge allows for a "poor man's" 95 through the city.  Springfield, VA - Arlington - Downtown DC- Bladensburg-Greenbelt.  Of course, it is much faster to go between Springfield and Greenbelt by way of I-495.  But, if either your origin or destination is well within the Beltway, it does make sense to use this roadway, as it is a full freeway, with chokepoints that CPZ has mentioned.

So, while of course, you would normally use the Beltway for a trip between VA and BWI airport, if the VA origin is well within the Beltway (and Rosslyn would definitely qualify), it would make sense to use the thru-DC freeway as opposed to going way out of your way (like taking the GW Pkwy to the American Legion Bridge to I-495 or the GW Pkwy to I-495 via Wilson Bridge

Avoiding downtown DC would be even more desirable if the 95 portion of the beltway was raised to 65... #justsaying #notgonnahappen #fantasy
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on January 22, 2021, 09:04:56 AM
Quote from: famartin on January 21, 2021, 06:19:11 PM
Avoiding downtown DC would be even more desirable if the 95 portion of the beltway was raised to 65... #justsaying #notgonnahappen #fantasy

Even if the speed limit remains 55 around the beltway, the prevailing speed of traffic is definitely much higher on 95/495 than on 295 in my experience (and there aren't any *permanent speed cameras to watch out for).

*I think there is currently a work zone camera around the exit 9/Suitland Parkway/exit 11 area, but this should go away once the construction is done.  The DC speed cameras are also much less forgiving fine-wise, based on what I've heard.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 22, 2021, 01:08:42 PM
Living along 395 inside the Beltway, I've been using 295 to go to points northeast (i.e. Philly and Baltimore) since the new 11th St Bridge opened. Generally the only real trouble spots are the SE-SW freeway (no real workarounds) and then parts of the B-W Parkway - I usually don't bother "shifting over" to I-95 at College Park.

There was a nightmare one time, however, when I had to get to BWI Airport. There was a bad delay on the SE-SW freeway, so I switched to downtown via NY Avenue. That was so arduous, and took forever to crawl up through NE DC during rush hour.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 22, 2021, 07:00:40 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on January 22, 2021, 01:08:42 PM
Living along 395 inside the Beltway, I've been using 295 to go to points northeast (i.e. Philly and Baltimore) since the new 11th St Bridge opened. Generally the only real trouble spots are the SE-SW freeway (no real workarounds) and then parts of the B-W Parkway - I usually don't bother "shifting over" to I-95 at College Park.

There was a nightmare one time, however, when I had to get to BWI Airport. There was a bad delay on the SE-SW freeway, so I switched to downtown via NY Avenue. That was so arduous, and took forever to crawl up through NE DC during rush hour.

The federal part of the B-W Parkway (south of MD-175 at Odenton) has two segments that frequently are congested north of Greenbelt.

1.  Approaching and passing Powder Mill Road in Prince George's County; and
2.  Approaching and passing MD-32 near Fort Meade in Anne Arundel County.

3.  Another bad spot is south of Greenbelt - the northbound side of the parkway,
especially on weekday afternoons, can be congested all the way back to the
lane drop northbound at MD-450 due to the design of the cloverleaf interchange
at I-95/I-495, which cannot handle the demand placed on the cloverleaf ramp
from northbound B-W Parkway to the Outer Loop.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Jmiles32 on January 23, 2021, 05:34:46 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 21, 2021, 10:40:44 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 17, 2021, 06:19:27 PM
Of the 10 times I've flown to DC in the last few years, I think seven of those times I flew directly into Reagan; the other three times were to BWI. I don't consider that to be anywhere near an awful drive. The drive back has always terminated in Arlington.

The worst part of the drive was consistently the Anacostia Fwy. Once we got to the 11th St Bridges, it was smooth sailing from there.

The I-295 and especially DC-295 corridors have bottlenecks with congestion every weekday, and in the case of DC-295, usually every day.

There's a lane drop on northbound I-295 that narrows down to 2 lanes, where there is usually recurring congestion every weekday.

DC-295 has congestion (usually every day) southbound approaching East Capitol Street because of the lane drop there.  This is made worse by drivers not familiar with the D.C. area using "dumb" GPS units (no congestion feedback in determining route) that direct them to use B-W Parkway, MD-201, DC-295, I-695, I-395 instead of the Capital Beltway across the W. Wilson Bridge because it is slightly shorter in terms of miles, but usually a bad choice in terms of congestion.

Has DC ever considered widening DC-295 between the lane drop at East Capitol Street and the I-695/I-295 interchange? The stretch is only 2 miles, seemingly has plenty of ROW, and would only require the widening of one bridge over the railroad tracks. The bridges over East Capitol Street are wide enough already, the interchange at Pennsylvania Avenue could (and should) be reconfigured to where the existing weave lane on the bridge there could be converted into a 3rd GP lane, and the southbound bridge over 11th Street and I-695 is probably fine staying at 2 lanes. Seems like a worthwhile project to me given the constant traffic due to the lane drop.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 24, 2021, 02:54:45 PM
Quote from: Jmiles32 on January 23, 2021, 05:34:46 PM
Has DC ever considered widening DC-295 between the lane drop at East Capitol Street and the I-695/I-295 interchange? The stretch is only 2 miles, seemingly has plenty of ROW, and would only require the widening of one bridge over the railroad tracks. The bridges over East Capitol Street are wide enough already, the interchange at Pennsylvania Avenue could (and should) be reconfigured to where the existing weave lane on the bridge there could be converted into a 3rd GP lane, and the southbound bridge over 11th Street and I-695 is probably fine staying at 2 lanes. Seems like a worthwhile project to me given the constant traffic due to the lane drop.

I have never, ever heard it discussed.  When the Barney Circle extension of the Southeast Freeway was being discussed in the 1980's  the proposal would have effectively eliminated that lane drop by way of a two lane exit from southbound DC-295 to that road, which would have spanned the Anacostia River and hooked up with the existing freeway at Barney Circle, S.E. (the stubs are still there on the DC-295 bridge over the CSX Yard).  In the 1990's there was a completed Final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS) and Record of Decision (ROD) ready to go to bid, but the project was cancelled by the late former Mayor-for-Life Marion Shepilov Barry, Jr. at the last minute in his final term at the behest of D.C. environmental and NIMBY groups using the slogan "Stop it again."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 27, 2021, 04:47:31 PM
https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1354531264137719814
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on January 27, 2021, 07:35:03 PM
Someone didn't get the memo about mile-based exit numbers.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on January 27, 2021, 08:02:20 PM
The exits on 395 were unnumbered until 2008. If the exits had been numbered via mileage, it would have been an alphabet soup of Exit 1s and 2s. That is probably why they went the sequential route. Heck, even 395's Virginia exits aren't completely mileage-based, although that might be irrelevant.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 27, 2021, 08:51:59 PM
I think sequential exit numbering would be much easier to make sense of. The freeway just isn't long enough to justify having mileage-based numbering.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on January 27, 2021, 09:32:31 PM
Ugh. :ded: Every other place that is redesignating or re-signing a whole route that currently sequential is converting to mileage-based.  Someone should tell DDOT that sequential is not allowed anymore.  If they don't want mile-based numbers, then they shouldn't have added numbers in the first place.  Any chance they could just take the numbers down?

They could also reduce the suffixes by using exit 0.  Such would avoid any suffix higher than D.

Regarding I-395 in VA, the 2020 MUTCD would appear to allow exit numbers to be off by 1 to avoid suffixes, so it would be compliant upon adoption.  Ditto for I-295 in DC.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 28, 2021, 12:26:47 AM
If we tried to go by mileage based, we could do something like this...

NB I-395:
1A - US 1 NORTH/14th Street/National Mall
1B - Potomac Park/US Park Police
2A - 12th Street Expressway/Capitol One Arena
2B - Maine Avenue/SW Waterfront/Nationals Park
3A - I-195 NORTH/D St NW/US Senate/C St SW/US Capitol/The House
3B - S Capitol St/Nationals Park
4A - 6th St SE
4B - 11th St SE/ Southeast Blvd
5A - DC 295 NORTH
5B - I-295 SOUTH

SB I-395:
4B - M St SE/Navy Yard
4A - 8th Street SE
3 - I-195 NORTH/Downtown
2B - 6th St SW/7th St SW/L'enfant Plaza
2A - Maine Avenue/12th St/ Downtown
1B - Potomac Park/US Park Police

I bend the rules a little here, but I think its close enough to be acceptable.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 28, 2021, 07:36:07 AM
https://twitter.com/dildinewtop/status/1354543926468866048
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on January 28, 2021, 08:13:22 AM
FWIW: Looking back thru GSV, it looks like DDOT actually did renumber some (but not all) of 395's exits to mileage based (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8823378,-77.0189051,3a,43.1y,91.25h,93.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRE7ei3fZO_ebqN5oOgt3_g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en) circa 2014...before reverting back to sequential.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 28, 2021, 09:31:14 AM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on January 28, 2021, 08:13:22 AM
FWIW: Looking back thru GSV, it looks like DDOT actually did renumber some (but not all) of 395's exits to mileage based (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8823378,-77.0189051,3a,43.1y,91.25h,93.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRE7ei3fZO_ebqN5oOgt3_g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en) circa 2014...before reverting back to sequential.

But what's weird is that if you click back to the previous exit (Maine Avenue, Southwest Waterfront, Nationals Park) in that same October 2014 Street View, you'll see that sign had an Exit 4 tab. The numbering on that road, and frankly the signage in general, has just always been pretty bad. Even if anyone here disagrees with particular aspects of what they're doing with the new signage, it's fair to give them credit for trying to fix a longstanding mess. I reserve judgment on how well they do until I see the finished product, of course!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Roadsguy on January 28, 2021, 09:46:07 AM
Where did I-295 and I-695 officially end before the 11th Street Bridge project? Did I-295 officially cross the river and end at the Barney Circle (or at least at I-695), and did the unsigned I-695 ever run concurrent with I-395 to Maine Avenue, or did it always end at the merge with I-395?

Also, when was the DC 295 designation actually created? According to old Street View imagery, it wasn't signed at all on BGSes before the 11th Street Bridge project, and still isn't in a lot of places. There was always route trailblazer signage, but that was and still is very sporadic, especially on the Kenilworth Avenue Freeway section. DC 295 seems like it would have been a relatively recent development, considering that the original plans for I-295 took it on a completely different route onto the east leg of the inner loop to I-95. Was the Kenilworth Avenue Freeway originally intended to simply be unsigned?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 28, 2021, 09:56:42 AM
DC-295 signs went up in the early 1990s. I-295 did indeed cross the river; it was supposed to continue underneath Barney Circle and then along what is now the RFK Stadium Access Road, curve past the stadium, and ultimately connect up to (unbuilt) I-95 roughly near "Dave Thomas Circle" where I-95 was to curve north along the railroad tracks. The DC-295 designation was intended to help provide continuity between I-295 and MD-295 (setting aside that there's a gap in the numbering where the highway runs along MD-201 for a short stretch).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: PHLBOS on January 28, 2021, 10:31:40 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 27, 2021, 09:32:31 PM
Ugh. :ded: Every other place that is redesignating or re-signing a whole route that currently sequential is converting to mileage-based.  Someone should tell DDOT that sequential is not allowed anymore.  If they don't want mile-based numbers, then they shouldn't have added numbers in the first place.  Any chance they could just take the numbers down?

They could also reduce the suffixes by using exit 0.  Such would avoid any suffix higher than D.

Regarding I-395 in VA, the 2020 MUTCD would appear to allow exit numbers to be off by 1 to avoid suffixes, so it would be compliant upon adoption.  Ditto for I-295 in DC.
IIRC, the I-695/Baltimore Beltway still uses sequential interchange numbers; however, most are located in such a manner that a conversion would likely mean few if not no changes for those.

It's also worth noting that MassDOT has seemed to have gotten a pass for not including I-291, I-391 & the Lowell Connector in its interchange renumbering plans.  Like the new numbers for I-395 in DC; such a conversion would've created excessive alphabet soup for those Bay State roads.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Roadsguy on January 28, 2021, 10:46:34 AM
RE: I-695, I answered my own question by finding this document (http://sp.route.transportation.org/Documents/AASHTO-FHWADCI-295andI-695.pdf) detailing the route changes for the 11th Street Bridge project. I-695 did indeed officially begin at I-395. The document also confirms that I-295 ended at the Barney Circle, and even still officially existed as a planned designation north to Capitol Street. Additionally, the reason the originally-planned redesignation of I-395/695/195 never happened was because it depended on the cancelled Barney Circle Freeway project.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 28, 2021, 10:52:16 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 27, 2021, 08:02:20 PM
The exits on 395 were unnumbered until 2008. If the exits had been numbered via mileage, it would have been an alphabet soup of Exit 1s and 2s. That is probably why they went the sequential route. Heck, even 395's Virginia exits aren't completely mileage-based, although that might be irrelevant.

In fact, they're not mileage-based at all. They're all in sequential clusters based on local interchanges.

Cluster 1: Springfield Interchange
Cluster 2: Edsall Rd
Cluster 3: Duke St/Little River Turnpike
Cluster 4: Seminary Rd
Cluster 5: King St
Cluster 6/7: Shirlington and Quaker Lane/Glebe Rd
Cluster 8-9-10: Columbia Pike/Pentagon/US-1 south/Pentagon City/Crystal City/GW Parkway
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 28, 2021, 11:07:27 AM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 28, 2021, 10:46:34 AM
RE: I-695, I answered my own question by finding this document (http://sp.route.transportation.org/Documents/AASHTO-FHWADCI-295andI-695.pdf) detailing the route changes for the 11th Street Bridge project. I-695 did indeed officially begin at I-395. The document also confirms that I-295 ended at the Barney Circle, and even still officially existed as a planned designation north to Capitol Street. Additionally, the reason the originally-planned redesignation of I-395/695/195 never happened was because it depended on the cancelled Barney Circle Freeway project.

North Capitol Street, FWIW. The directional reference is not a prefix on those particular street names in the same manner that it would be in many other cities because they are three separate streets that don't join up (North Capitol Street, East Capitol Street, and South Capitol Street; there is no West Capitol Street because it would be where the National Mall is).




In the "you learn something new every day" department, I read that apparently one reason portions of DC-295 are so narrow and substandard is that once upon a time the right-of-way was constrained by streetcar tracks that ran out to (appropriate for this forum) Deane Avenue NE.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on January 28, 2021, 11:15:27 AM
Standard is a relative term. :-P Once you get used to being tailgated at 60 MPH in a 45 MPH zone, everything comes easy soon after that 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on January 28, 2021, 11:16:24 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 28, 2021, 11:07:27 AM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 28, 2021, 10:46:34 AM
RE: I-695, I answered my own question by finding this document (http://sp.route.transportation.org/Documents/AASHTO-FHWADCI-295andI-695.pdf) detailing the route changes for the 11th Street Bridge project. I-695 did indeed officially begin at I-395. The document also confirms that I-295 ended at the Barney Circle, and even still officially existed as a planned designation north to Capitol Street. Additionally, the reason the originally-planned redesignation of I-395/695/195 never happened was because it depended on the cancelled Barney Circle Freeway project.

East North Capitol Street, FWIW.

FTFY.  I-295 was cancelled north(west) of East Capitol when 95 through the District was axed.  But, for some reason, the section between Barney Circle and East Capitol remained on the books.  Perhaps because the East Capitol St bridge was intended at the time as the connection across the river.  This would have been before the Barney Circle Freeway project was conceived.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 28, 2021, 11:22:10 AM
Quote from: froggie on January 28, 2021, 11:16:24 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 28, 2021, 11:07:27 AM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 28, 2021, 10:46:34 AM
RE: I-695, I answered my own question by finding this document (http://sp.route.transportation.org/Documents/AASHTO-FHWADCI-295andI-695.pdf) detailing the route changes for the 11th Street Bridge project. I-695 did indeed officially begin at I-395. The document also confirms that I-295 ended at the Barney Circle, and even still officially existed as a planned designation north to Capitol Street. Additionally, the reason the originally-planned redesignation of I-395/695/195 never happened was because it depended on the cancelled Barney Circle Freeway project.

East North Capitol Street, FWIW.

FTFY.  I-295 was cancelled north(west) of East Capitol when 95 through the District was axed.  But, for some reason, the section between Barney Circle and East Capitol remained on the books.  Perhaps because the East Capitol St bridge was intended at the time as the connection across the river.  This would have been before the Barney Circle Freeway project was conceived.


Thanks. I don't think I knew about that and I can see I misread his post because I was thinking of the original plan when I-95 was still on the books. Either way, the point about those three streets' names remains valid.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on January 28, 2021, 12:59:30 PM
So I ended up looking in to what could be done with mileage-based numbers on I-195 and I-395.  IMO, if you use exit 0 and clever fudging by 1 (also, I've never really been a fan of numbering termini as NY historically has not, so I didn't here, though as noted below, that's not strictly necessary to get the benefits of this scheme), you can get something that's both close to the mileage and actually reasonable; these use no suffix higher than C.

I-395: (existing/proposed in graphic->proposed):
1->0A
2->0B
3->1A
4->1B
5->1C
6->2A
7->2B
8->3A
9->3B
10->3A
11->3B
12A-B->4A-B or not numbered (terminus)

I-195 (existing->proposed):
6->not numbered (I-395 ramp)
7->not numbered (terminus)
8->0
9->1
10->2

All on the mile or off by 1, and taking advantage of the fact that the intermediate interchanges on existing I-695 are half interchanges (actually, such would allow I-195 to retain exit numbers at I-395 if my proposed 0 were made a SB 1 or 0C; then existing exit 7 could be 0A-B).

Quote from: PHLBOS on January 28, 2021, 10:31:40 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 27, 2021, 09:32:31 PM
Ugh. :ded: Every other place that is redesignating or re-signing a whole route that currently sequential is converting to mileage-based.  Someone should tell DDOT that sequential is not allowed anymore.  If they don't want mile-based numbers, then they shouldn't have added numbers in the first place.  Any chance they could just take the numbers down?

They could also reduce the suffixes by using exit 0.  Such would avoid any suffix higher than D.

Regarding I-395 in VA, the 2020 MUTCD would appear to allow exit numbers to be off by 1 to avoid suffixes, so it would be compliant upon adoption.  Ditto for I-295 in DC.
IIRC, the I-695/Baltimore Beltway still uses sequential interchange numbers; however, most are located in such a manner that a conversion would likely mean few if not no changes for those.

It's also worth noting that MassDOT has seemed to have gotten a pass for not including I-291, I-391 & the Lowell Connector in its interchange renumbering plans.  Like the new numbers for I-395 in DC; such a conversion would've created excessive alphabet soup for those Bay State roads.
I mean, as much as I'd rather everything be uniformly mileage-based in accordance with MUTCD standards, if it's still sequential but not too noticeable I won't complain a ton.  But this proposed scheme for I-395 is definitely noticeable.  As is I-664 in VA (which really needs a renumber south of the bridge).

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on January 28, 2021, 10:52:16 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 27, 2021, 08:02:20 PM
The exits on 395 were unnumbered until 2008. If the exits had been numbered via mileage, it would have been an alphabet soup of Exit 1s and 2s. That is probably why they went the sequential route. Heck, even 395's Virginia exits aren't completely mileage-based, although that might be irrelevant.

In fact, they're not mileage-based at all. They're all in sequential clusters based on local interchanges.

Cluster 1: Springfield Interchange
Cluster 2: Edsall Rd
Cluster 3: Duke St/Little River Turnpike
Cluster 4: Seminary Rd
Cluster 5: King St
Cluster 6/7: Shirlington and Quaker Lane/Glebe Rd
Cluster 8-9-10: Columbia Pike/Pentagon/US-1 south/Pentagon City/Crystal City/GW Parkway
One could argue that I-395 in VA is de facto mileage-based, as all the numbers are right on or off by 1, especially as the 2020 MUTCD will be more lenient with off by 1 to reduce suffixes.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 28, 2021, 01:34:32 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2021, 12:59:30 PM
So I ended up looking in to what could be done with mileage-based numbers on I-195 and I-395.  IMO, if you use exit 0 and clever fudging by 1 (also, I've never really been a fan of numbering termini as NY historically has not, so I didn't here, though as noted below, that's not strictly necessary to get the benefits of this scheme), you can get something that's both close to the mileage and actually reasonable; these use no suffix higher than C.

I-395: (existing/proposed in graphic->proposed):
1->0A
2->0B
3->1A
4->1B
5->1C
6->2A
7->2B
8->3A
9->3B
10->3A
11->3B
12A-B->4A-B or not numbered (terminus)

I-195 (existing->proposed):
6->not numbered (I-395 ramp)
7->not numbered (terminus)
8->0
9->1
10->2

All on the mile or off by 1, and taking advantage of the fact that the intermediate interchanges on existing I-695 are half interchanges (actually, such would allow I-195 to retain exit numbers at I-395 if my proposed 0 were made a SB 1 or 0C; then existing exit 7 could be 0A-B).

I've thought about the concept of Exit 0 more since it was brought up here the other day, and it occurs to me that it probably confuses the public more than its worth unless said exit is actually at the road terminus.  So I'm gonna prefer my own numbers I posted earlier today ;)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 02:19:38 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 12:26:47 AM
If we tried to go by mileage based, we could do something like this...
...
I bend the rules a little here, but I think its close enough to be acceptable.
Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2021, 12:59:30 PM
So I ended up looking in to what could be done with mileage-based numbers on I-195 and I-395.  IMO, if you use exit 0 and clever fudging by 1 (also, I've never really been a fan of numbering termini as NY historically has not, so I didn't here, though as noted below, that's not strictly necessary to get the benefits of this scheme), you can get something that's both close to the mileage and actually reasonable; these use no suffix higher than C.

I really don't get either argument here. How does mileage-based exit numbering help drivers on this very short stretch of freeway? The one advantage (accuracy relative to route mileage) is completely lost when you fudge the numbers anyway. And you still have the alphabet soup issue. Drivers are not traversing this road for hours, counting down the miles to their exit. It's literally just a short freeway with a dozen-plus exits over a very short stretch. The best thing we can do is reduce confusion, and there is no way that 1A, 1B, 2A, etc is somehow less confusing than 1, 2, 3, 4, etc, especially when the former wouldn't even necessarily be accurate anyway.

For the record: the USDOT headquarters is just off this freeway, on New Jersey Ave. If they haven't yet spoken up about what is certainly their employees' most used freeway, we really should just calm down until they say something. After all, they'll probably notice!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 28, 2021, 02:23:47 PM
Another factor–and it's one that I recognize may not be on vdeane's radar for obvious reasons–is the history of problems the DC EMS department has had in dispatching emergency response personnel. There have been all sorts of problems over the years involving teams dispatched to the wrong locations, and that highway has been a problem spot multiple times. Anything they can do to reduce ambiguity or possible reasons for confusion is probably a good thing, especially given how many accidents that road sees, and I'd suggest that sequential exit numbers without letter suffixes would be more specific for emergency response purposes because under that system each exit will have a fully unique number, rather than a partially unique one differentiated by suffix.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:27:00 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 12:26:47 AM
If we tried to go by mileage based, we could do something like this...

NB I-395:
1A - US 1 NORTH/14th Street/National Mall
1B - Potomac Park/US Park Police
2A - 12th Street Expressway/Capitol One Arena
2B - Maine Avenue/SW Waterfront/Nationals Park
3A - I-195 NORTH/D St NW/US Senate/C St SW/US Capitol/The House
3B - S Capitol St/Nationals Park
4A - 6th St SE
4B - 11th St SE/ Southeast Blvd
5A - DC 295 NORTH
5B - I-295 SOUTH

SB I-395:
4B - M St SE/Navy Yard
4A - 8th Street SE
3 - I-195 NORTH/Downtown
2B - 6th St SW/7th St SW/L'enfant Plaza
2A - Maine Avenue/12th St/ Downtown
1B - Potomac Park/US Park Police

I bend the rules a little here, but I think its close enough to be acceptable.

Seriously guys, what's wrong with this?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 02:31:17 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:27:00 PM
Seriously guys, what's wrong with this?

Zero advantage over sequential non-alphabetized exiting.

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 28, 2021, 02:23:47 PM
Another factor–and it's one that I recognize may not be on vdeane's radar for obvious reasons–is the history of problems the DC EMS department has had in dispatching emergency response personnel. There have been all sorts of problems over the years involving teams dispatched to the wrong locations, and that highway has been a problem spot multiple times. Anything they can do to reduce ambiguity or possible reasons for confusion is probably a good thing, especially given how many accidents that road sees, and I'd suggest that sequential exit numbers without letter suffixes would be more specific for emergency response purposes because under that system each exit will have a fully unique number, rather than a partially unique one differentiated by suffix.

I had no idea, but a great point to bring up.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:33:01 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 02:31:17 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:27:00 PM
Seriously guys, what's wrong with this?

Zero advantage over sequential non-alphabetized exiting.

How so?  Its a reasonable compromise. By setting the numbers to the nearest milepost -1, it works out reasonably well. Most highways have lots of letter suffixed exits. Not sure why its a big deal as long as we are keeping them to A's and B's.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 02:39:57 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:33:01 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 02:31:17 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:27:00 PM
Seriously guys, what's wrong with this?

Zero advantage over sequential non-alphabetized exiting.

How so?  Its a reasonable compromise. By setting the numbers to the nearest milepost -1, it works out reasonably well. Most highways have lots of letter suffixed exits. Not sure why its a big deal as long as we are keeping them to A's and B's.

Why are we compromising at all? What are drivers gaining having exits with A's and B's, over a single-number-per-exit system? The advantage of mileage-based exits is totally lost on a very short freeway, especially when (as I pointed out above) they're not even correct!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 02:39:57 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:33:01 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 02:31:17 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:27:00 PM
Seriously guys, what's wrong with this?

Zero advantage over sequential non-alphabetized exiting.

How so?  Its a reasonable compromise. By setting the numbers to the nearest milepost -1, it works out reasonably well. Most highways have lots of letter suffixed exits. Not sure why its a big deal as long as we are keeping them to A's and B's.

Why are we compromising at all? What are drivers gaining having exits with A's and B's, over a single-number-per-exit system? The advantage of mileage-based exits is totally lost on a very short freeway, especially when (as I pointed out above) they're not even correct!

But they are close to correct. Remember, the point of mileage-based exits is to get an approximate distance to the next exit.  Not pure accuracy, just approximate. And the numbers I came up with do that. Subtracting one mile and putting the exits within a half mile of the said milepost on that number, you get an approximate mileage based numbering which is not too filled with letters but still does the intended purpose of giving an approximate distance between exits. Its not perfect but it does the job without the alphabet soup.

I-395 in VA isn't really sequential, and its not quite mileage based either. Best estimate of the actual distance in VA based on the mileposts is around 10 miles from what VA considers to be Mile 0 to the DC line, so exits 2-10 make sense, even if fudged a bit.

Now, if you are really only looking to limit confusion for drivers... I-395 in DC shouldn't even have its own numbering scheme. MD and VA combined the beltway into one scheme. Why shouldn't DC and VA do likewise, and just continue the VA numbering to 295 in DC?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 28, 2021, 03:03:06 PM
On the other hand, with a road as short as I-395/I-695 in DC, is there really much need for being able to get an approximate distance to the next exit? I certainly recognize the benefit of that on long drives, and I also recognize the benefit of not having to renumber the exits if you add a new one (compare to the Thruway's Exit 21 > 21B > 21A > 22 sequence, for example). But neither of those seems to be the case here. True, a trip across that stretch could be part of a longer drive for someone passing through the area, but it's still an insignificant distance.

(For comparison, if I get on I-95 to drive south to Florida, the exit numbers tell me it would be 173 miles to North Carolina if I stayed on I-95 to Richmond, and that helps me gauge my progress even if it doesn't really tell me anything about the overall distance remaining for the trip. But mileage-based numbers a two-mile segment of I-395 in the District wouldn't serve a similar purpose because it's simply too small a distance to matter in the overall context.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 03:35:32 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 02:39:57 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:33:01 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 02:31:17 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:27:00 PM
Seriously guys, what's wrong with this?

Zero advantage over sequential non-alphabetized exiting.

How so?  Its a reasonable compromise. By setting the numbers to the nearest milepost -1, it works out reasonably well. Most highways have lots of letter suffixed exits. Not sure why its a big deal as long as we are keeping them to A's and B's.

Why are we compromising at all? What are drivers gaining having exits with A's and B's, over a single-number-per-exit system? The advantage of mileage-based exits is totally lost on a very short freeway, especially when (as I pointed out above) they're not even correct!

But they are close to correct. Remember, the point of mileage-based exits is to get an approximate distance to the next exit.  Not pure accuracy, just approximate. And the numbers I came up with do that. Subtracting one mile and putting the exits within a half mile of the said milepost on that number, you get an approximate mileage based numbering which is not too filled with letters but still does the intended purpose of giving an approximate distance between exits. Its not perfect but it does the job without the alphabet soup.

But you're not explaining why "approximate distance to the next exit" is an important parameter in the context of this whole freeway. To introduce mileage-based exit numbering, you have to fudge the numbers so as to not create an insane alphabet soup, but then you're still left with an almost-entirely suffixed exit system (aka, regular alphabet soup). And for what?

Being in the correct lane and locating the correct exit is a far more important goal for this freeway, and I see that being more easily achieved with quickly-identifiable exit numbers, and the best way to achieve that is to use sequential numbering where a single number is tied to a single exit.

Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Now, if you are really only looking to limit confusion for drivers... I-395 in DC shouldn't even have its own numbering scheme. MD and VA combined the beltway into one scheme. Why shouldn't DC and VA do likewise, and just continue the VA numbering to 295 in DC?

But that would only make it more confusing for drivers. You'd then be looking at at least three characters for the vast majority of exits along that stretch. And you'd still have to wrangle with the basic fact that most drivers on this freeway are not driving long distances and gain nothing with mileage-based exit numbers.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 28, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 03:35:32 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 02:39:57 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:33:01 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 02:31:17 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:27:00 PM
Seriously guys, what's wrong with this?

Zero advantage over sequential non-alphabetized exiting.

How so?  Its a reasonable compromise. By setting the numbers to the nearest milepost -1, it works out reasonably well. Most highways have lots of letter suffixed exits. Not sure why its a big deal as long as we are keeping them to A's and B's.

Why are we compromising at all? What are drivers gaining having exits with A's and B's, over a single-number-per-exit system? The advantage of mileage-based exits is totally lost on a very short freeway, especially when (as I pointed out above) they're not even correct!

But they are close to correct. Remember, the point of mileage-based exits is to get an approximate distance to the next exit.  Not pure accuracy, just approximate. And the numbers I came up with do that. Subtracting one mile and putting the exits within a half mile of the said milepost on that number, you get an approximate mileage based numbering which is not too filled with letters but still does the intended purpose of giving an approximate distance between exits. Its not perfect but it does the job without the alphabet soup.

But you're not explaining why "approximate distance to the next exit" is an important parameter in the context of this whole freeway. To introduce mileage-based exit numbering, you have to fudge the numbers so as to not create an insane alphabet soup, but then you're still left with an almost-entirely suffixed exit system (aka, regular alphabet soup). And for what?

Being in the correct lane and locating the correct exit is a far more important goal for this freeway, and I see that being more easily achieved with quickly-identifiable exit numbers, and the best way to achieve that is to use sequential numbering where a single number is tied to a single exit.

Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
Now, if you are really only looking to limit confusion for drivers... I-395 in DC shouldn't even have its own numbering scheme. MD and VA combined the beltway into one scheme. Why shouldn't DC and VA do likewise, and just continue the VA numbering to 295 in DC?

But that would only make it more confusing for drivers. You'd then be looking at at least three characters for the vast majority of exits along that stretch. And you'd still have to wrangle with the basic fact that most drivers on this freeway are not driving long distances and gain nothing with mileage-based exit numbers.

Wait, what?  OK, at this point I just think you are going to argue til everyone believes you are right or just gives up. So I'll give up now.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 28, 2021, 03:54:09 PM
It seems to me most drivers are accustomed to having exit numbers reset at state lines. I don't see why I-395 should be any different.

I always found the argument that the Beltway exit numbers were "confusing" when they reset at the state line to be a bit absurd and I think if anything the current system where the numbers run from 2 to 57 and then three miles later jump to 173 is likely to be a lot more "confusing" to the average driver (regardless of the principle that I-95's numbers trump I-495's). The one thing that maybe had some validity on the Beltway was that some exit numbers were duplicated in Virginia and Maryland and that because it's a loop route, that meant the duplication was more proximate than will normally be the case on longer-distance thru Interstates. But even then, people don't seem to be confused by the two Exit 1s located 11.5 miles apart on I-81 in Maryland and Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 28, 2021, 08:28:43 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 28, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
Wait, what?  OK, at this point I just think you are going to argue til everyone believes you are right or just gives up. So I'll give up now.

I'm just trying to present an alternative to the holier-than-thou "mileage based exit numbers" that are primarily advantageous over longer distances. This freeway is only like 3.5 miles long.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on January 28, 2021, 08:51:32 PM
The advantages of mileage-based numbers are why they are the nation-wide standard (aside from Nova Scotia and Newfoundland, they're pretty much the standard of the entire continent, aside from Mexico, which doesn't pervasively use exit numbers).  Why should DC be different than the (hopefully eventually) entire rest of the country?  The sequential numbering scheme proposed would have a larger disparity between the exit number and mileage than any of the examples of sequential numbers remaining in mileage-based states.

As for the proposals being off anyways... my proposal isn't off by much (and by how much depends on what rounding method is used... I think it's interesting that the standard is the one that maximizes alphabet soup, that seems a little short-sighted to me, but it is what it is).  The 0s are from 0-0.8; the 1s are from 0.8-1.6; the 2s are from 1.6-2.5; the 3s are from 2.5-3.4; and the 4s are at ~3.7 (for I-195, my proposed 1 is at 0.9 and my proposed 2 is at 1.1).  Actually, looking at these, they aren't even off; I'm just choosing my rounding method on the fly for whatever is most convenient. ;)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: hotdogPi on January 28, 2021, 08:55:46 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2021, 08:51:32 PM
The 0s are from 0-0.8; the 1s are from 0.8-1.6; the 2s are from 1.6-2.5; the 3s are from 2.5-3.4; and the 4s are at ~3.7 (for I-195, my proposed 1 is at 0.9 and my proposed 2 is at 1.1).  Actually, looking at these, they aren't even off; I'm just choosing my rounding method on the fly for whatever is most convenient. ;)

That system is equivalent to using 0.85 miles = 1 exit number and rounding up. That means they're not actually mile markers.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 29, 2021, 12:05:00 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2021, 08:51:32 PM
The advantages of mileage-based numbers are why they are the nation-wide standard...

...Because they normally line up with the route mileage. Yours, at best, barely meet that goal. To someone driving, it's far enough off that I fail to see how it could be useful. And there's still zero consideration for potential confusion around numerous "A" and "B" suffixes plastered across every sign. Has there ever been a consideration for how drivers could be confused by having six separate exits with an "A" attached to them? Suffixed exits are fine when not avoidable, but they're not typically ideal. Here, they're entirely avoidable yet we insist on it for unknown reasons beyond "it's just what you do".
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: famartin on January 29, 2021, 01:21:26 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 29, 2021, 12:05:00 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2021, 08:51:32 PM
The advantages of mileage-based numbers are why they are the nation-wide standard...

...Because they normally line up with the route mileage. Yours, at best, barely meet that goal. To someone driving, it's far enough off that I fail to see how it could be useful. And there's still zero consideration for potential confusion around numerous "A" and "B" suffixes plastered across every sign. Has there ever been a consideration for how drivers could be confused by having six separate exits with an "A" attached to them? Suffixed exits are fine when not avoidable, but they're not typically ideal. Here, they're entirely avoidable yet we insist on it for unknown reasons beyond "it's just what you do".

Alright, I'll leap back in...

Lets be truly honest here... the only way most exit numbers are actually useful, on a highway with a lot of them, is by giving you an idea of how far to the next exit. On a road with very few exits, like, say the NJ Turnpike, they are so few and far apart that the numbers are useful even though they are sequential. However, on your average interstate where exits are fairly frequent, the exit numbers don't stick in my mind for any reason other than to give me an idea of how far to the my intended exit.  If you listen to WTOP, I hear them mention the intersecting roads a lot more than the actual exit numbers. They do mention them sometimes, but the emphasis is definitely on the intersecting road, not the exit number.  Thus, for a road like I-395, they aren't even that important. I'm much more likely to advise someone to take the 12th Street exit than Exit 3 or whatever it is.

Since they aren't that important, might as well conform to standard.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 29, 2021, 07:40:11 AM
I found Virginia's exit numbers on the Beltway a lot easier to remember when they were sequential, but certainly that could be from familiarity after growing up seeing those numbers.

Exit numbers are useful in giving directions, though. They're an extra piece of information and one that's easy to look for once known.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mapmikey on January 29, 2021, 09:41:32 AM
Does it make any difference that there don't appear to be any sort of mile markers posted on I-395 in DC?

I-66 in DC has neither mile markers nor exit numbers (though does still have this nifty District of Columbia shield - https://goo.gl/maps/uPuyoWQQuo4drqgg9)

The problem in general is that having a single standard for a system with 47,000+ miles in widely varying settings is that the single standard doesn't make the best sense in all cases. 

I-95 in Virginia once had 3 Exit 2s, 3 Exit 3s and 3 Exit 4s at one point because of the Richmond-Petersburg Tpk and the DC Beltway having separate numbering systems in addition to 95's.  So the national standard makes a ton of sense to fix that.

Given that DC changed it to mileage based, then changed it back suggests people were having issues with it.  I think most people would have an easier time remembering integers than a series of suffixes A-D on multiple sets of exits.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 29, 2021, 10:18:47 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on January 29, 2021, 09:41:32 AM
....

Given that DC changed it to mileage based, then changed it back suggests people were having issues with it.  I think most people would have an easier time remembering integers than a series of suffixes A-D on multiple sets of exits.

In that vein, I think the point I previously made is of some significance:

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 28, 2021, 02:23:47 PM
Another factor–and it's one that I recognize may not be on vdeane's radar for obvious reasons–is the history of problems the DC EMS department has had in dispatching emergency response personnel. There have been all sorts of problems over the years involving teams dispatched to the wrong locations, and that highway has been a problem spot multiple times. Anything they can do to reduce ambiguity or possible reasons for confusion is probably a good thing, especially given how many accidents that road sees, and I'd suggest that sequential exit numbers without letter suffixes would be more specific for emergency response purposes because under that system each exit will have a fully unique number, rather than a partially unique one differentiated by suffix.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on January 29, 2021, 01:00:45 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 28, 2021, 08:55:46 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2021, 08:51:32 PM
The 0s are from 0-0.8; the 1s are from 0.8-1.6; the 2s are from 1.6-2.5; the 3s are from 2.5-3.4; and the 4s are at ~3.7 (for I-195, my proposed 1 is at 0.9 and my proposed 2 is at 1.1).  Actually, looking at these, they aren't even off; I'm just choosing my rounding method on the fly for whatever is most convenient. ;)

That system is equivalent to using 0.85 miles = 1 exit number and rounding up. That means they're not actually mile markers.
It's actually using normal rounding - the same rounding used for taxes and all of math - for all but one or two exits (which use the round down method that tends to be favored for exit numbers (for reasons unknown) in order to reduce alphabet soup for the 1s).

Quote from: jakeroot on January 29, 2021, 12:05:00 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2021, 08:51:32 PM
The advantages of mileage-based numbers are why they are the nation-wide standard...

...Because they normally line up with the route mileage. Yours, at best, barely meet that goal. To someone driving, it's far enough off that I fail to see how it could be useful. And there's still zero consideration for potential confusion around numerous "A" and "B" suffixes plastered across every sign. Has there ever been a consideration for how drivers could be confused by having six separate exits with an "A" attached to them? Suffixed exits are fine when not avoidable, but they're not typically ideal. Here, they're entirely avoidable yet we insist on it for unknown reasons beyond "it's just what you do".
See above.  One could also argue that many of the groupings are actually interchanges with multiple ramps - in fact, I could see a case for all of them except the 0s, especially for the 1s and 2s (not mentioning the 4s because everyone would call that ramp split one interchange).  Should this (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6995255,-73.5037301,14z) stretch of the Southern State Parkway be considered confusing alphabet soup and each ramp given a separate sequential number (it even has 28AN and 28AS!)?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 29, 2021, 02:01:55 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 29, 2021, 01:00:45 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 29, 2021, 12:05:00 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2021, 08:51:32 PM
The advantages of mileage-based numbers are why they are the nation-wide standard...

...Because they normally line up with the route mileage. Yours, at best, barely meet that goal. To someone driving, it's far enough off that I fail to see how it could be useful. And there's still zero consideration for potential confusion around numerous "A" and "B" suffixes plastered across every sign. Has there ever been a consideration for how drivers could be confused by having six separate exits with an "A" attached to them? Suffixed exits are fine when not avoidable, but they're not typically ideal. Here, they're entirely avoidable yet we insist on it for unknown reasons beyond "it's just what you do".
See above.  One could also argue that many of the groupings are actually interchanges with multiple ramps - in fact, I could see a case for all of them except the 0s, especially for the 1s and 2s (not mentioning the 4s because everyone would call that ramp split one interchange).  Should this (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6995255,-73.5037301,14z) stretch of the Southern State Parkway be considered confusing alphabet soup and each ramp given a separate sequential number (it even has 28AN and 28AS!)?

If we're going to use suffixed exits, then I actually don't mind using somewhat unique suffixes.

In fact, if you absolutely insist on mileage-based exits, why not do something like this?...0A, 0B, 1C, 1D, 2E, 2F, 3G, 3H, etc.

Quote from: vdeane on January 29, 2021, 01:00:45 PM
It's actually using normal rounding - the same rounding used for taxes and all of math - for all but one or two exits (which use the round down method that tends to be favored for exit numbers (for reasons unknown) in order to reduce alphabet soup for the 1s).

I think we understand that you have to round, and that rounding is sometimes necessary. But it's acceptable because you wouldn't dump mileage-based exits along a very length freeway just because of some alphabet soup in a particular neighborhood. No, you accept that it's a necessary evil. But on a freeway with almost entirely suffixed exits that's barely a few miles long, there's simply no advantage.

This is clearly a unique case, but that's just it. Insisting on applying the national standard because it's the national standard misses the point of standards, which really is to make driving easier. Multiple suffixed exits in a row just isn't easier for drivers than sequential numbering in this one instance because there are too many other things going on.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 29, 2021, 02:10:56 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 29, 2021, 01:21:26 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 29, 2021, 12:05:00 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2021, 08:51:32 PM
The advantages of mileage-based numbers are why they are the nation-wide standard...

...Because they normally line up with the route mileage. Yours, at best, barely meet that goal. To someone driving, it's far enough off that I fail to see how it could be useful. And there's still zero consideration for potential confusion around numerous "A" and "B" suffixes plastered across every sign. Has there ever been a consideration for how drivers could be confused by having six separate exits with an "A" attached to them? Suffixed exits are fine when not avoidable, but they're not typically ideal. Here, they're entirely avoidable yet we insist on it for unknown reasons beyond "it's just what you do".

Alright, I'll leap back in...

Lets be truly honest here... the only way most exit numbers are actually useful, on a highway with a lot of them, is by giving you an idea of how far to the next exit. On a road with very few exits, like, say the NJ Turnpike, they are so few and far apart that the numbers are useful even though they are sequential. However, on your average interstate where exits are fairly frequent, the exit numbers don't stick in my mind for any reason other than to give me an idea of how far to the my intended exit.  If you listen to WTOP, I hear them mention the intersecting roads a lot more than the actual exit numbers. They do mention them sometimes, but the emphasis is definitely on the intersecting road, not the exit number.  Thus, for a road like I-395, they aren't even that important. I'm much more likely to advise someone to take the 12th Street exit than Exit 3 or whatever it is.

Since they aren't that important, might as well conform to standard.

Look, I totally get the point of mileage-based exit numbering. I hope you don't think that I don't like it. I use it the same way as you: counting down my exits. But no one is counting down the miles to their exit on this very, very short freeway; no one gives a damn about route mileage on this very, very short freeway.

Have you considered that, if the exit numbers were easier to understand (aka, not a sea of suffixes), they might actually be helpful? And I would agree with 1995hoo above that they are actually quite useful when telling someone else when to exit, over something else like a highway number or street name.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: TheStranger on January 29, 2021, 02:22:27 PM
Here's a conceptual idea I had:

Given that the new 395 as a whole (from Springfield to DC 295) is not a super long road, why not just have one exit number set that continues across the river from Virginia?

That way no need to round to -1, no need to worry about exit number duplication from the VA stretch of 395, and if mile-based, there is a logical measurement occurring (distance from I-95/I-495).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 29, 2021, 02:45:45 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on January 29, 2021, 02:22:27 PM
Here's a conceptual idea I had:

Given that the new 395 as a whole (from Springfield to DC 295) is not a super long road, why not just have one exit number set that continues across the river from Virginia?

That way no need to round to -1, no need to worry about exit number duplication from the VA stretch of 395, and if mile-based, there is a logical measurement occurring (distance from I-95/I-495).

This was proposed up-thread by famartin (reply #1126). I don't think this is a bad idea, but you'd still be left with all the suffixes, which is the main issue here (not mileage-based exits themselves, but rather what they can produce).

You could keep the mileage from VA I-395 going, and use unique suffixes like I proposed a couple posts up: after you cross the Potomac, you have 11A, then 11B, then 12C, then 12D, etc.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 29, 2021, 08:24:27 PM
I think Dave Dildine may be a member or a lurker on this forum!

https://twitter.com/dildinewtop/status/1355313736249188353
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on January 29, 2021, 10:33:48 PM
Not sure if he's here, but he definitely is on the DCRoads.com Facebook group (where this has also become quite the discussion; I actually posted my proposed scheme there first).

Quote from: jakeroot on January 29, 2021, 02:01:55 PM
If we're going to use suffixed exits, then I actually don't mind using somewhat unique suffixes.

In fact, if you absolutely insist on mileage-based exits, why not do something like this?...0A, 0B, 1C, 1D, 2E, 2F, 3G, 3H, etc.
That's a cool idea.  Not quite to the letter of the MUTCD... but certainly more in the spirit of it than straight sequential!

Quote
I think we understand that you have to round, and that rounding is sometimes necessary. But it's acceptable because you wouldn't dump mileage-based exits along a very length freeway just because of some alphabet soup in a particular neighborhood. No, you accept that it's a necessary evil. But on a freeway with almost entirely suffixed exits that's barely a few miles long, there's simply no advantage.

This is clearly a unique case, but that's just it. Insisting on applying the national standard because it's the national standard misses the point of standards, which really is to make driving easier. Multiple suffixed exits in a row just isn't easier for drivers than sequential numbering in this one instance because there are too many other things going on.
I'll admit that this is where my perfectionism and obsession with order come into play.  I'm the type of person who will rearrange cart returns at the store because I can't stand how people put the cars in willy-nilly.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 30, 2021, 12:24:22 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 29, 2021, 08:24:27 PM
I think Dave Dildine may be a member or a lurker on this forum!

....

I didn't get to post as fully as I meant to last night because the pizza man rang the doorbell right as I was hitting "Post." I'd like to post the fuller set of Dave Dildine's comments just for completion and to illustrate why I made the comment I did, vdeane's point about the Facebook group notwithstanding (I don't use Facebook and so have not seen that).

Sorry if there is some level of duplication here. Linking tweets can be problematic. If I use the button to copy the link to the tweet, invariably some gibberish characters show up after it. If I instead copy the URL in the browser's address bar, the earlier tweet of his to which he was replying shows up.

https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1354531264137719814

https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1355243393299972099

https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1355312926572371976

https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1355313736249188353




Quote from: vdeane on January 29, 2021, 10:33:48 PM
I'll admit that this is where my perfectionism and obsession with order come into play.  I'm the type of person who will rearrange cart returns at the store because I can't stand how people put the cars in willy-nilly.

Heh, funny that I'm seeing this now. I went to Wegmans last night to avoid the expected crowds today and the carts were a jumble when I returned mine, but it was too damn windy to rearrange anything and I didn't have a pair of warm gloves with me, and I said to myself, "Damn, too bad vdeane doesn't shop at this Wegmans."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on January 30, 2021, 02:28:30 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 29, 2021, 10:33:48 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 29, 2021, 02:01:55 PM
If we're going to use suffixed exits, then I actually don't mind using somewhat unique suffixes.

In fact, if you absolutely insist on mileage-based exits, why not do something like this?...0A, 0B, 1C, 1D, 2E, 2F, 3G, 3H, etc.
That's a cool idea.  Not quite to the letter of the MUTCD... but certainly more in the spirit of it than straight sequential!

Glad you like it! I'm not used to seeing suffixed exits on a regular basis, so I guess maybe I find them more confusing than most? Most non-Interstate Seattle freeways don't even have exit numbers, let alone exits with suffixes. Anything to me that reduces the level of repetition (basically, A and B over and over and over and over again) would be really great here. I think the sheer number exits (whether they're grouped or not) does lend itself to a slightly-different approach than what might normally be considered. I guess we could use mileage-based exits (I still think them being slightly off from actual mileage does, at least a bit, defeat the purpose), but I think doing nothing else to improve exit number recognition won't much improve the current situation of drivers being confused by the exit numbers.

Quote from: vdeane on January 29, 2021, 10:33:48 PM
I'll admit that this is where my perfectionism and obsession with order come into play.  I'm the type of person who will rearrange cart returns at the store because I can't stand how people put the cars in willy-nilly.

Interesting that you'd bring that up. I would think sequential numbering would come across as more orderly than repetitive suffixes. What you've proposed is ordered relative to FHWA standards, but to drivers, it may actually appear quite jumbled ("why does every exit have an A or B?").
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 18 wheel warrior on January 31, 2021, 04:09:40 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 27, 2021, 08:02:20 PM
.... Heck, even 395's Virginia exits aren't completely mileage-based, although that might be irrelevant.
In Virginia all 3 digit interstate exits are all sequential.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on January 31, 2021, 04:15:09 PM
Quote from: 18 wheel warrior on January 31, 2021, 04:09:40 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 27, 2021, 08:02:20 PM
.... Heck, even 395's Virginia exits aren't completely mileage-based, although that might be irrelevant.
In Virginia all 3 digit interstate exits are all sequential.

I-295 and I-495 are mileage-based (though I-495's numbers continue from MD).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 18 wheel warrior on January 31, 2021, 04:43:54 PM

Quote.... Now, if you are really only looking to limit confusion for drivers... I-395 in DC shouldn't even have its own numbering scheme. MD and VA combined the beltway into one scheme. Why shouldn't DC and VA do likewise, and just continue the VA numbering to 295 in DC?

Agree 100%.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 18 wheel warrior on January 31, 2021, 04:51:57 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 31, 2021, 04:15:09 PM
Quote from: 18 wheel warrior on January 31, 2021, 04:09:40 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 27, 2021, 08:02:20 PM
.... Heck, even 395's Virginia exits aren't completely mileage-based, although that might be irrelevant.
In Virginia all 3 digit interstate exits are all sequential.

I-295 and I-495 are mileage-based (though I-495's numbers continue from MD).
That's true. The only two exceptions.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on January 31, 2021, 05:32:16 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 31, 2021, 04:15:09 PM
Quote from: 18 wheel warrior on January 31, 2021, 04:09:40 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 27, 2021, 08:02:20 PM
.... Heck, even 395's Virginia exits aren't completely mileage-based, although that might be irrelevant.
In Virginia all 3 digit interstate exits are all sequential.

I-295 and I-495 are mileage-based (though I-495's numbers continue from MD).

...and I-366 doesn't have exit numbers (or at least it didn't the last time I was on it).

:bigass:
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on February 01, 2021, 12:36:59 PM
...speaking of confusion...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: VTGoose on February 02, 2021, 12:23:19 PM
Speaking of D.C. traffic . . .

"D.C. acquires "˜Dave Thomas Circle' on New York Avenue through eminent domain"

"A confusing intersection along New York Avenue in Northeast Washington will be redesigned to make it safer, city officials said.

D.C. Mayor Muriel E. Bowser (D) and city transportation officials said they used eminent domain to acquire the title for the property where a Wendy's restaurant sits in the center of New York and Florida avenues and First Street NE. The intersection is often referred to as "Dave Thomas Circle,"  nicknamed after the founder of the Wendy's fast-food chain."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/dave-thomas-circle/2021/02/02/e41ab174-6547-11eb-8c64-9595888caa15_story.html



Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on February 02, 2021, 02:09:12 PM
Concept from floridaaveproject.com (http://floridaaveproject.com) ...

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5d5447145248510001372602/1576872171668-PSIWGHO7WZVSRU15O4A0/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kPgpPM9YhVSNxOibSEBAntZZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PIsNBmSRmFA0-2KhymgwvYOa99wmwqatPasho-ujEhdeg/6D-12-20-19.png?format=750w)

I really don't see how adding in all those new left turns will help traffic flow. Unless the left turns, such as those from eastbound New York Ave to westbound Florida Ave, are not going to have any protected phasing.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on February 03, 2021, 12:30:52 PM
Will definitely help eastbound Florida, because you won't have that funky "half-circle" with the existing mis-matched signal phasing to contend with.  Shouldn't be any different than today for New York Ave....they already have 2 signals.  Also notice that FL/1st/Eckington has no left turns, so that one should be a simple two-phase signal.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on February 16, 2021, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: famartin on January 29, 2021, 01:21:26 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 29, 2021, 12:05:00 AM
Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2021, 08:51:32 PM
The advantages of mileage-based numbers are why they are the nation-wide standard...

...Because they normally line up with the route mileage. Yours, at best, barely meet that goal. To someone driving, it's far enough off that I fail to see how it could be useful. And there's still zero consideration for potential confusion around numerous "A" and "B" suffixes plastered across every sign. Has there ever been a consideration for how drivers could be confused by having six separate exits with an "A" attached to them? Suffixed exits are fine when not avoidable, but they're not typically ideal. Here, they're entirely avoidable yet we insist on it for unknown reasons beyond "it's just what you do".

Alright, I'll leap back in...

Lets be truly honest here... the only way most exit numbers are actually useful, on a highway with a lot of them, is by giving you an idea of how far to the next exit. On a road with very few exits, like, say the NJ Turnpike, they are so few and far apart that the numbers are useful even though they are sequential. However, on your average interstate where exits are fairly frequent, the exit numbers don't stick in my mind for any reason other than to give me an idea of how far to the my intended exit.  If you listen to WTOP, I hear them mention the intersecting roads a lot more than the actual exit numbers. They do mention them sometimes, but the emphasis is definitely on the intersecting road, not the exit number.  Thus, for a road like I-395, they aren't even that important. I'm much more likely to advise someone to take the 12th Street exit than Exit 3 or whatever it is.

Since they aren't that important, might as well conform to standard.

A lot of the confusion isn't so much the exit numbering - it's the large number of sigs in this area and all of the exits and additional supplemental signs.  Yes, there are a large number of points of interest in Downtown Washington, but not all of them need their own highway sign.  A cleanup of the signs is in order, beyond just the exit numbering.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on February 16, 2021, 01:53:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 02, 2021, 02:09:12 PM
Concept from floridaaveproject.com (http://floridaaveproject.com) ...

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5d5447145248510001372602/1576872171668-PSIWGHO7WZVSRU15O4A0/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kPgpPM9YhVSNxOibSEBAntZZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PIsNBmSRmFA0-2KhymgwvYOa99wmwqatPasho-ujEhdeg/6D-12-20-19.png?format=750w)

I really don't see how adding in all those new left turns will help traffic flow. Unless the left turns, such as those from eastbound New York Ave to westbound Florida Ave, are not going to have any protected phasing.

I share your concern.  The oldest configuraion here allowed two way traffic on both streets, but prohibited left turns throughout.  Some view of that can be seen in Oct 2007 GSV, if you click in the right places.  IMO, this was better than what exists now as well as what is now proposed.

There is definitely merit in connecting 1st to Eckington.  But there really should not be a left allowed from NY to FL.  The lefts should be prohibited up and down the NY Ave corridor, especially where there is no room for a left turn lane.   The lefts from FL to NY do make more sense and are probably needed given the expectations of traffic on FL Ave.

If anything, perhaps left turns (with left turn lanes) could be allowed from NY to 1st, but not from NY to FL.  The NY/FL intersection is very busy and the amount of traffic there can be severely blocked with more red time to allow for a protected left phase.   But even the NY to 1st left isn't truly necessary as traffic can make a right on N street and then a left on 1st to reach Eckington.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on February 16, 2021, 10:53:48 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 16, 2021, 01:53:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 02, 2021, 02:09:12 PM
Concept from floridaaveproject.com (http://floridaaveproject.com) ...

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5d5447145248510001372602/1576872171668-PSIWGHO7WZVSRU15O4A0/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kPgpPM9YhVSNxOibSEBAntZZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PIsNBmSRmFA0-2KhymgwvYOa99wmwqatPasho-ujEhdeg/6D-12-20-19.png?format=750w)

I really don't see how adding in all those new left turns will help traffic flow. Unless the left turns, such as those from eastbound New York Ave to westbound Florida Ave, are not going to have any protected phasing.

I share your concern.  The oldest configuraion here allowed two way traffic on both streets, but prohibited left turns throughout.  Some view of that can be seen in Oct 2007 GSV, if you click in the right places.  IMO, this was better than what exists now as well as what is now proposed.

There is definitely merit in connecting 1st to Eckington.  But there really should not be a left allowed from NY to FL.  The lefts should be prohibited up and down the NY Ave corridor, especially where there is no room for a left turn lane.   The lefts from FL to NY do make more sense and are probably needed given the expectations of traffic on FL Ave.

If anything, perhaps left turns (with left turn lanes) could be allowed from NY to 1st, but not from NY to FL.  The NY/FL intersection is very busy and the amount of traffic there can be severely blocked with more red time to allow for a protected left phase.   But even the NY to 1st left isn't truly necessary as traffic can make a right on N street and then a left on 1st to reach Eckington.

I had no idea the current configuration was only about ten years old. Seems rather odd to scrap the changes so quickly.

Looking at the old setup (pre-2010), I would agree that it seems like the better setup. It's not perfect for through traffic along Eckington/First, but it wasn't an impossible maneuver, and the priority here is clearly traffic between Florida Ave and New York Ave.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on February 28, 2021, 12:53:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 16, 2021, 10:53:48 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 16, 2021, 01:53:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 02, 2021, 02:09:12 PM
Concept from floridaaveproject.com (http://floridaaveproject.com) ...

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5d5447145248510001372602/1576872171668-PSIWGHO7WZVSRU15O4A0/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kPgpPM9YhVSNxOibSEBAntZZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PIsNBmSRmFA0-2KhymgwvYOa99wmwqatPasho-ujEhdeg/6D-12-20-19.png?format=750w)

I really don't see how adding in all those new left turns will help traffic flow. Unless the left turns, such as those from eastbound New York Ave to westbound Florida Ave, are not going to have any protected phasing.

I share your concern.  The oldest configuraion here allowed two way traffic on both streets, but prohibited left turns throughout.  Some view of that can be seen in Oct 2007 GSV, if you click in the right places.  IMO, this was better than what exists now as well as what is now proposed.

There is definitely merit in connecting 1st to Eckington.  But there really should not be a left allowed from NY to FL.  The lefts should be prohibited up and down the NY Ave corridor, especially where there is no room for a left turn lane.   The lefts from FL to NY do make more sense and are probably needed given the expectations of traffic on FL Ave.

If anything, perhaps left turns (with left turn lanes) could be allowed from NY to 1st, but not from NY to FL.  The NY/FL intersection is very busy and the amount of traffic there can be severely blocked with more red time to allow for a protected left phase.   But even the NY to 1st left isn't truly necessary as traffic can make a right on N street and then a left on 1st to reach Eckington.

I had no idea the current configuration was only about ten years old. Seems rather odd to scrap the changes so quickly.

Looking at the old setup (pre-2010), I would agree that it seems like the better setup. It's not perfect for through traffic along Eckington/First, but it wasn't an impossible maneuver, and the priority here is clearly traffic between Florida Ave and New York Ave.

I agree that should be the primary concern. 

One of the easiest ways of reducing traffic at a congested intersection is to prohibit left turns.  It may make certain movements more difficult, but at least it means there are fewer phases at the intersection in question.  I think NY and FL should be one that prohibits all left turns in order to keep thing moving and allowing traffic to use the side streets like 1st and N to make missing connections.  I do note that the RR tracks do make it difficult to reach certain areas, since they cut off the grid, but I do also note that NY Ave is STILL the primary means of reachning Downtown DC from Annapolis and Baltimore by car, so it is an important gateway.

For whatever work they did on what is still currently signed as I-695 to connect the SE Fwy to the Anacostia Fwy, a key problem is that there is still a bottleneck that severely restricts traffic there.  North of East Captiol, 295 is 3-3, but south of East Capitol it is 2-2.  Thus, if heading from Downtown DC to Baltimore or Annapolis, you are likely to face far more traffic following the freeway route where 695 and 295 traffic both have to merge into only 2 northbound lanes, then you would if you took surface streets like Independence (to join 295 at the point it widens to 3 NB lanes) or to use NY Ave, which also puts you on the left side of both US 50 and the BW Parkway making it a far easier drive overall.

Another point:  Does anyone ever notice how difficult it is to go from the east to turn left onto SB 14th (NW/SW) in Downtown, especially during rush hours?  South of Thomas Circle, lefts are prohibited (at some point of time) on K, NY, G, F, Pennsylvania, COnstitution, and Independence.  You can't go west on L or H because it is one-way the wrong way.  So your only options are I (one way), E (one way), Madison (one way), or C SW.  In some cases, these lefts are to prevent backups on the major two-way cross streets like K, Constitution, and Independence.  But in other cases, I think it is to limit traffic on 14th, which gets super-backed up as it is a direct connection to the bridge to VA.  F and G are quite curious, as those only go a block further, so a left at 14th will not really back up much traffic behind it, but they are restricted because they don't want you to add traffic to 14th.

I bring this up to show that the District will restrict left turns to keep traffic on main arteries moving, and they should do so on the northeastern stretch of NY Ave.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 09, 2021, 08:04:37 AM
https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1369145799117074432
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 09, 2021, 10:24:42 AM
^Is there any indication that this has to do with upcoming changes to I-395, I-695, and the new I-195?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 09, 2021, 10:37:07 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 09, 2021, 10:24:42 AM
^Is there any indication that this has to do with upcoming changes to I-395, I-695, and the new I-195?

I don't believe so, especially as the signs shown in that tweet are on the westbound side (technically southbound I-395, of course, but it runs westbound in DC) and thus would not be affected by the route numbers. They've been replacing old signage for a couple of years now and I'm reasonably certain this particular replacement was scheduled prior to the announcement about route renumbering. If you look back through this thread, you'll see various other references to sign replacement in recent years. The most notable from forum members' point of view was the ones on I-66 near the Kennedy Center, but they've been replacing signs on I-395 as well. Maybe they just wanted to finish the eastbound side before turning around to the westbound side.

I don't know whether the ancient signs on the ramp from northbound I-395 to the 12th Street Tunnel (https://goo.gl/maps/Yck8ksyEGSdvvMnc8) have been replaced yet, but if they haven't, it's only a matter of time. While as a general matter I think it's sad to see old signs disappear, I have to concede the sign on the left is in horrid condition that merits replacement.

Incidentally, I note that in the second picture in Dave Dildine's tweet (the one at the top right), Maine Avenue is signed as Exit 4A, whereas in the larger photo to the left it is not.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 09, 2021, 10:46:54 AM
Thank you.  I hope the I-66 signs on the Theodore Roosevelt Memorial Bridge get replaced at some point.  They looked to be in bad condition when I saw them while clinching US 50 on Saturday.

I have not been on I-395 since the last time I went with my parents to a Nationals game in 2011 so I remember the exit numbers being added but nothing since. 

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on March 09, 2021, 12:23:39 PM
Is there a date set for the 395-to-195, 695-to-395 change in designations? Personally, I disagree with the proposed renumbering of the Interstates. 695 has been designated along the Southeast Freeway from the get-go, and makes more sense to me than making it 395 (which denotes a spur route). Interstate 395 (95 until 1977) has also gone the way it has from the get-go. IMHO, if 695 were to become 395, 395 should end at the Southeast Freeway's original terminus at Pennsylvania Ave., and the 11th Street Bridges should be renumbered back to 295.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on March 09, 2021, 06:42:45 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 09, 2021, 08:04:37 AM
https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1369145799117074432
Man, he's really one of us.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 11, 2021, 07:44:22 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 09, 2021, 10:46:54 AM
Thank you.  I hope the I-66 signs on the Theodore Roosevelt Memorial Bridge get replaced at some point.  They looked to be in bad condition when I saw them while clinching US 50 on Saturday.

I have not been on I-395 since the last time I went with my parents to a Nationals game in 2011 so I remember the exit numbers being added but nothing since. 

I believe the big structure that has a DMS (dynamic message sign) at the D.C. end of the T. Roosevelt Bridge (I-66 westbound) has some maintenance involvement by VDOT (or at least it did when it was installed).  The static part is likely DDOT, but I think the DMS part might be VDOT maintenance still.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: epzik8 on March 16, 2021, 09:51:37 AM
Quote from: Alps on March 09, 2021, 06:42:45 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 09, 2021, 08:04:37 AM
https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1369145799117074432
Man, he's really one of us.
I remember seeing some button copies on I-95 between the beltways in 2001, such as for exit 29 Calverton/Beltsville.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: interstate73 on March 17, 2021, 03:15:02 AM
Is there a timeline for when the interstate route changes in Downtown DC will be put into place on the ground?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on March 17, 2021, 05:14:56 PM
Apparently not. I asked the same question 8 days ago and got no response, meaning there isn't one yet. I would be okay if the renumbering proposal was scrapped, since I consider it unnecessary.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on March 18, 2021, 03:03:47 PM
Work on 16th Street bus lanes begins: https://dcist.com/story/21/03/17/16th-street-bus-lanes-dc-construction/

Lanes will be present between Lafayette Square and Arkansas Ave NW. That covers Downtown, Logan Circle, Mt Pleasant and Columbia Heights. Not very far from the Yellow/Green Line at times (particularly Columbia Heights), but downtown the Yellow Line runs under 7th St, so this will provide added North-South capacity.

Interestingly, I think 16th St (or 14th St) was the initial selected corridor for the Yellow/Green Line through Midtown, but after the 1968 riots, planners moved it to 7th street in order to spur reinvestment in the Shaw and other close-by neighborhoods.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 18, 2021, 03:17:37 PM
Quote from: interstate73 on March 17, 2021, 03:15:02 AM
Is there a timeline for when the interstate route changes in Downtown DC will be put into place on the ground?

I haven't heard of any timeline. If you use Twitter, you could ask Dave Dildine (see above) or Adam Tuss (@adamtuss, the transportation reporter for the local NBC TV affiliate).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on March 18, 2021, 10:30:48 PM
QuoteInterestingly, I think 16th St (or 14th St) was the initial selected corridor for the Yellow/Green Line through Midtown, but after the 1968 riots, planners moved it to 7th street in order to spur reinvestment in the Shaw and other close-by neighborhoods.

13th.  Original plan had it taking Mass/13th/Kansas/Farragut.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Strider on March 19, 2021, 02:09:44 AM
D.C. really have poor ground mounted signage for U.S. 1 and U.S. 50. I had to check up Google Maps to see where they go or if they multiplex together, but god... there is no mention of U.S. 1 or U.S. 50 ground mounted signage almost everywhere.

Only one US route that DC did very well with ground mounted signage is U.S. 29.

What gives?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on March 19, 2021, 01:44:16 PM
Quote from: Strider on March 19, 2021, 02:09:44 AM
D.C. really have poor ground mounted signage for U.S. 1 and U.S. 50. I had to check up Google Maps to see where they go or if they multiplex together, but god... there is no mention of U.S. 1 or U.S. 50 ground mounted signage almost everywhere.

Only one US route that DC did very well with ground mounted signage is U.S. 29.

What gives?
They sign US 1 well, just not on the correct route!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 21, 2021, 07:36:56 AM
Quote from: Strider on March 19, 2021, 02:09:44 AM
Only one US route that DC did very well with ground mounted signage is U.S. 29.

I disagree.  Unless a driver knows the route across D.C. taken by U.S. 29, it is not possible to drive it strictly following the U.S. 29 shields, for many of the turns are not signed at all - as of the last time I field checked it.

Now it is possible that DDOT has finally signed those turns - but I am not exactly confident about that.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on March 21, 2021, 08:23:30 AM
Quote from: Alps on March 19, 2021, 01:44:16 PM
Quote from: Strider on March 19, 2021, 02:09:44 AM
D.C. really have poor ground mounted signage for U.S. 1 and U.S. 50. I had to check up Google Maps to see where they go or if they multiplex together, but god... there is no mention of U.S. 1 or U.S. 50 ground mounted signage almost everywhere.

Only one US route that DC did very well with ground mounted signage is U.S. 29.

What gives?
They sign US 1 well, just not on the correct route!

Where is US 1 signed correctly and incorrectly (routewise) in DC?

ixnay
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 21, 2021, 09:06:26 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 21, 2021, 07:36:56 AM
Quote from: Strider on March 19, 2021, 02:09:44 AM
Only one US route that DC did very well with ground mounted signage is U.S. 29.

I disagree.  Unless a driver knows the route across D.C. taken by U.S. 29, it is not possible to drive it strictly following the U.S. 29 shields, for many of the turns are not signed at all - as of the last time I field checked it.

Now it is possible that DDOT has finally signed those turns - but I am not exactly confident about that.

I clinched it in January 2019, and I can agree with Strider's sentiment.  However, it is easy to be deceived by the turn from 7th St NW to Rhode Island Ave though by turning on R St NW (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9127994,-77.0218957,3a,75y,193.99h,87.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqQ-omZhuPu2cMMeolJsG5g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) instead.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on March 21, 2021, 06:48:36 PM
Quote from: ixnay on March 21, 2021, 08:23:30 AM
Quote from: Alps on March 19, 2021, 01:44:16 PM
Quote from: Strider on March 19, 2021, 02:09:44 AM
D.C. really have poor ground mounted signage for U.S. 1 and U.S. 50. I had to check up Google Maps to see where they go or if they multiplex together, but god... there is no mention of U.S. 1 or U.S. 50 ground mounted signage almost everywhere.

Only one US route that DC did very well with ground mounted signage is U.S. 29.

What gives?
They sign US 1 well, just not on the correct route!

Where is US 1 signed correctly and incorrectly (routewise) in DC?

ixnay
It is definitely not signed correctly (or at least completely) to and from the tunnels on the south side. Historically, 1 was signed a few different ways to and from 395, and I think only some of that has been corrected.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mapmikey on March 21, 2021, 07:25:19 PM
If US 1 still runs 14th/Constitution/6th/Rhode Island, I could find zero shields at any of those intersections in GMSV.

US 50 is signed where soon-to-be-renumbered I-395 ends at it and further east.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 22, 2021, 09:47:44 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 21, 2021, 07:25:19 PM
If US 1 still runs 14th/Constitution/6th/Rhode Island, I could find zero shields at any of those intersections in GMSV.

US 50 is signed where soon-to-be-renumbered I-395 ends at it and further east.

It was once possible to follow U.S. 50 and U.S. 1 across D.C. with the signs. 

Eastbound 50 from Arlington County went T. Roosevelt Bridge to Constitution Avenue, N.W. to a left on 6th Street, N.W.  to a right onto New York Avenue, N.W (and New York Avenue, N.E.) out to the Prince George's County, Maryland border. 

Westbound was mostly a reversal of the above, though U.S. 50 westbound used L Street, N.W. from a point after the I-395 tunnel entrance to a left onto 6th Street, N.W. to a right onto Constitution Avenue, N.W. to the T. Roosevelt Bridge.

U.S. 1 northbound came across the 14th Street Bridge, up lower 14th Street, S.W., then 14th Street, N.W. to a right onto Constitution Avenue, N.W.  Then a left onto 6th Street, N.W., following that to a right onto Rhode Island Avenue, N.W., then Rhode Island Avenue, N.E. out to the Prince George's County, Maryland border. 

Southbound reversed the above, save for heading west on Constitution Avenue, N.W. to a left onto 15th Street, N.W. to Jefferson Drive, S.W. to a right onto 14th Street, S.W.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2021, 09:23:33 AM
WTOP Radio: Could Beach Drive in Rock Creek Park stay closed to cars after the pandemic? (https://wtop.com/dc/2021/03/could-beach-drive-in-rock-creek-park-stay-closed-to-cars-after-the-pandemic/?fbclid=IwAR2fbPpJn6v7zQ3dByZ42K38-tYa-leXA8Tsodc6SWcCAwLfqXwlYv_6AqA)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on April 01, 2021, 10:14:57 AM
It looks like maybe DC is finally fixing that hideous maimed BGS on the inbound 14th Street Bridge. (For those unfamiliar: https://goo.gl/maps/Fz7dvedWaVLa7a6B7 )

https://twitter.com/STATter911/status/1377619763946471426

https://twitter.com/STATter911/status/1377622834378342410
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 01, 2021, 01:56:14 PM
Washington Post: Capital crossings - Washington is a city of great bridges and
terrible bridges. These are their stories.
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/interactive/2021/washington-dc-bridges-new-and-old/?itid=hp-top-table-main&fbclid=IwAR0gLqFRK6bGTZ7hTpc-ZqF9r_1f0IZ4n8bDu_8YJRggExVVvY8q-fSM8bo)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: plain on April 01, 2021, 05:06:18 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 01, 2021, 01:56:14 PM
Washington Post: Capital crossings - Washington is a city of great bridges and
terrible bridges. These are their stories.
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/interactive/2021/washington-dc-bridges-new-and-old/?itid=hp-top-table-main&fbclid=IwAR0gLqFRK6bGTZ7hTpc-ZqF9r_1f0IZ4n8bDu_8YJRggExVVvY8q-fSM8bo)

I got paywalled
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 02, 2021, 02:53:22 PM
Quote from: plain on April 01, 2021, 05:06:18 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 01, 2021, 01:56:14 PM
Washington Post: Capital crossings - Washington is a city of great bridges and
terrible bridges. These are their stories.
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/interactive/2021/washington-dc-bridges-new-and-old/?itid=hp-top-table-main&fbclid=IwAR0gLqFRK6bGTZ7hTpc-ZqF9r_1f0IZ4n8bDu_8YJRggExVVvY8q-fSM8bo)

I got paywalled

I can send an imperfect PDF copy (this is an interactive article) but need an e-mail address or Facebook name.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on April 19, 2021, 09:51:30 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 17, 2020, 07:40:04 AM
....

(https://mountvernontrail.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/8978da2b-6a49-42b2-b54b-463fa223db50.jpeg)

We drove into DC yesterday to go see the Eisenhower Memorial, mainly just for an excuse to get out of the house and do something. On the way home, we came over Memorial Bridge. Don't have any pictures because it was getting dark, but it's worth passing along that the ramp marked on the map above with "Remove southern exit ramp from Arlington Blvd. to S. Washington Blvd. prior to Hotspot #2" is now closed–blocked off with a jersey barrier. Don't know whether it's been demolished yet, but you now have to go around to the other ramp a little further up the road. As the map above indicates, that's now a two-lane exit; the left lane is left-turn only and the right lane is an option lane allowing a left onto the ramp or a straight-ahead movement towards Rosslyn. The main thing that struck me is that the turn is an extremely sharp left turn. I would be quite wary of going left from the option lane during rush hour, or whenever there's another vehicle in the left lane, simply because the turn is so sharp I would not trust people to stay in their lane. The curve seen on Google Street View there is a far more gentle curve than how it's now configured.

Memorial Bridge, incidentally, is in the best shape I've ever seen it. They did an outstanding job repairing the road surface.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Old Dominionite on April 19, 2021, 02:51:30 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2021, 09:23:33 AM
WTOP Radio: Could Beach Drive in Rock Creek Park stay closed to cars after the pandemic? (https://wtop.com/dc/2021/03/could-beach-drive-in-rock-creek-park-stay-closed-to-cars-after-the-pandemic/?fbclid=IwAR2fbPpJn6v7zQ3dByZ42K38-tYa-leXA8Tsodc6SWcCAwLfqXwlYv_6AqA)

Lots of affluent anti-car attitudes in NW DC. I wouldn't be surprised if this came to pass.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on April 19, 2021, 06:36:37 PM
Quote from: Old Dominionite on April 19, 2021, 02:51:30 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2021, 09:23:33 AM
WTOP Radio: Could Beach Drive in Rock Creek Park stay closed to cars after the pandemic? (https://wtop.com/dc/2021/03/could-beach-drive-in-rock-creek-park-stay-closed-to-cars-after-the-pandemic/?fbclid=IwAR2fbPpJn6v7zQ3dByZ42K38-tYa-leXA8Tsodc6SWcCAwLfqXwlYv_6AqA)

Lots of affluent anti-car attitudes in NW DC. I wouldn't be surprised if this came to pass.

If Beach drive were closed, that would mean more traffic for 16th, Connecticut, Reno, and coiuntless local streets with houses.  That would probably be more irritating for the people in these neighborhoods.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 19, 2021, 08:54:20 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2021, 09:23:33 AM
WTOP Radio: Could Beach Drive in Rock Creek Park stay closed to cars after the pandemic? (https://wtop.com/dc/2021/03/could-beach-drive-in-rock-creek-park-stay-closed-to-cars-after-the-pandemic/?fbclid=IwAR2fbPpJn6v7zQ3dByZ42K38-tYa-leXA8Tsodc6SWcCAwLfqXwlYv_6AqA)

Quote from: Old Dominionite on April 19, 2021, 02:51:30 PM
Lots of affluent anti-car attitudes in NW DC. I wouldn't be surprised if this came to pass.

Quote from: mrsman on April 19, 2021, 06:36:37 PM
If Beach drive were closed, that would mean more traffic for 16th, Connecticut, Reno, and coiuntless local streets with houses.  That would probably be more irritating for the people in these neighborhoods.

I think this was already discussed above, but the National Park Service has already closed the upper portion of Beach Drive in Rock Creek Park for the entire duration of COVID-19.

I used to cycle this section of Rock Creek Park back when my wife worked in Bethesda.  Center Drive on the NIH campus turns into Jones Bridge Road, which takes you down to Jones Mill Road (and that turns into Beach Drive).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on April 20, 2021, 07:57:42 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 19, 2021, 08:54:20 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2021, 09:23:33 AM
WTOP Radio: Could Beach Drive in Rock Creek Park stay closed to cars after the pandemic? (https://wtop.com/dc/2021/03/could-beach-drive-in-rock-creek-park-stay-closed-to-cars-after-the-pandemic/?fbclid=IwAR2fbPpJn6v7zQ3dByZ42K38-tYa-leXA8Tsodc6SWcCAwLfqXwlYv_6AqA)

Quote from: Old Dominionite on April 19, 2021, 02:51:30 PM
Lots of affluent anti-car attitudes in NW DC. I wouldn't be surprised if this came to pass.

Quote from: mrsman on April 19, 2021, 06:36:37 PM
If Beach drive were closed, that would mean more traffic for 16th, Connecticut, Reno, and coiuntless local streets with houses.  That would probably be more irritating for the people in these neighborhoods.

I think this was already discussed above, but the National Park Service has already closed the upper portion of Beach Drive in Rock Creek Park for the entire duration of COVID-19.

I used to cycle this section of Rock Creek Park back when my wife worked in Bethesda.  Center Drive on the NIH campus turns into Jones Bridge Road, which takes you down to Jones Mill Road (and that turns into Beach Drive).

COVID-19 has certainly reduced traffic, both here and in most parts of the country, but the traffic is slowly coming back.

There are also regular weekend closures of upper Beach drive that have been the case for many years, even prior to the construction.  In a sense, with all the WFH, traffic levels are now basically at weekend levels 7 days a week.  At most, you have mid-day congestion, but no real peak period.  But that will change when the pandemic is over.

I think it will be a mistake to permanently take away a viable commuting option in the area.  When the pandemic ends, Beach drive needs to reopen to cars during weekday rush hours, at minimum.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Old Dominionite on April 20, 2021, 09:30:50 AM
Quote from: mrsman on April 20, 2021, 07:57:42 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 19, 2021, 08:54:20 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 26, 2021, 09:23:33 AM
WTOP Radio: Could Beach Drive in Rock Creek Park stay closed to cars after the pandemic? (https://wtop.com/dc/2021/03/could-beach-drive-in-rock-creek-park-stay-closed-to-cars-after-the-pandemic/?fbclid=IwAR2fbPpJn6v7zQ3dByZ42K38-tYa-leXA8Tsodc6SWcCAwLfqXwlYv_6AqA)

Quote from: Old Dominionite on April 19, 2021, 02:51:30 PM
Lots of affluent anti-car attitudes in NW DC. I wouldn't be surprised if this came to pass.

Quote from: mrsman on April 19, 2021, 06:36:37 PM
If Beach drive were closed, that would mean more traffic for 16th, Connecticut, Reno, and coiuntless local streets with houses.  That would probably be more irritating for the people in these neighborhoods.

I think this was already discussed above, but the National Park Service has already closed the upper portion of Beach Drive in Rock Creek Park for the entire duration of COVID-19.

I used to cycle this section of Rock Creek Park back when my wife worked in Bethesda.  Center Drive on the NIH campus turns into Jones Bridge Road, which takes you down to Jones Mill Road (and that turns into Beach Drive).

COVID-19 has certainly reduced traffic, both here and in most parts of the country, but the traffic is slowly coming back.

There are also regular weekend closures of upper Beach drive that have been the case for many years, even prior to the construction.  In a sense, with all the WFH, traffic levels are now basically at weekend levels 7 days a week.  At most, you have mid-day congestion, but no real peak period.  But that will change when the pandemic is over.

I think it will be a mistake to permanently take away a viable commuting option in the area.  When the pandemic ends, Beach drive needs to reopen to cars during weekday rush hours, at minimum.

I agree with you, and I think it's fair to say that rush-hour congestion levels (at least in NOVA) are getting closer and closer to what they were before COVID.

What many people in this region don't realize (or want to admit) is that D.C. is a really a car-centric city in a car-centric region. Our mass transit system was designed to get workers to and from the downtown core and some major employment centers like Rosslyn, Silver Spring, and Tysons. Our transit system is not designed to encourage significant numbers of people to ditch their automobiles. Permanently closing off arteries like Beach Drive will only make matters worse.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: noelbotevera on April 20, 2021, 04:53:37 PM
Quote from: Strider on March 19, 2021, 02:09:44 AM
D.C. really have poor ground mounted signage for U.S. 1 and U.S. 50. I had to check up Google Maps to see where they go or if they multiplex together, but god... there is no mention of U.S. 1 or U.S. 50 ground mounted signage almost everywhere.
I did my best to trace US 50 across the District about a week or two ago. Looking at the forum, I got a turn wrong (I followed New York Avenue to 7th Street instead of 6th...why 6th and not 7th, I dunno - I feel 7th is more intuitive. Did nail the turn onto Constitution and the TR Bridge).

What I don't understand is why US 50 isn't signed well in the District - to the west it's Arlington Boulevard, a useful alternative to I-66, and to the east it's a freeway to Annapolis. It'd be helpful to connect the two, and it's not that complex a route compared to US 1 or US 29.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on April 20, 2021, 05:56:19 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on April 20, 2021, 04:53:37 PM
Quote from: Strider on March 19, 2021, 02:09:44 AM
D.C. really have poor ground mounted signage for U.S. 1 and U.S. 50. I had to check up Google Maps to see where they go or if they multiplex together, but god... there is no mention of U.S. 1 or U.S. 50 ground mounted signage almost everywhere.
I did my best to trace US 50 across the District about a week or two ago. Looking at the forum, I got a turn wrong (I followed New York Avenue to 7th Street instead of 6th...why 6th and not 7th, I dunno - I feel 7th is more intuitive. Did nail the turn onto Constitution and the TR Bridge).

What I don't understand is why US 50 isn't signed well in the District - to the west it's Arlington Boulevard, a useful alternative to I-66, and to the east it's a freeway to Annapolis. It'd be helpful to connect the two, and it's not that complex a route compared to US 1 or US 29.
It is helpful to connect the two, but you're not supposed to use US 50 to do it. Everyone coming in is supposed to be destined inside the city. That's their thinking, anyway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on April 20, 2021, 06:20:46 PM
NY Ave to 7th puts one into the mess that is Mt. Vernon Square.  6th is also wider than 7th between NY and Constitution.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Old Dominionite on April 20, 2021, 07:07:26 PM
I'm not bothered that US 50 isn't signed well in DC. On both the MD and VA side it serves as a route into or out of the city. It doesn't serve (nor should it serve) as a route through the city for thru traffic.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on April 21, 2021, 12:23:12 AM
Quote from: Old Dominionite on April 20, 2021, 07:07:26 PM
I'm not bothered that US 50 isn't signed well in DC. On both the MD and VA side it serves as a route into or out of the city. It doesn't serve (nor should it serve) as a route through the city for thru traffic.
In which case US 50 should be routed around downtown via I-395. Until then, it deserves to be signed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Old Dominionite on April 21, 2021, 07:05:47 AM
Quote from: Alps on April 21, 2021, 12:23:12 AM
Quote from: Old Dominionite on April 20, 2021, 07:07:26 PM
I'm not bothered that US 50 isn't signed well in DC. On both the MD and VA side it serves as a route into or out of the city. It doesn't serve (nor should it serve) as a route through the city for thru traffic.
In which case US 50 should be routed around downtown via I-395. Until then, it deserves to be signed.

There is no navigational justification to or benefit from signing US 50 through DC; there hasn't been for half a century. The same is true for both US 1 and US 29.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on April 21, 2021, 06:15:51 PM
Quote from: Old Dominionite on April 21, 2021, 07:05:47 AM
Quote from: Alps on April 21, 2021, 12:23:12 AM
Quote from: Old Dominionite on April 20, 2021, 07:07:26 PM
I'm not bothered that US 50 isn't signed well in DC. On both the MD and VA side it serves as a route into or out of the city. It doesn't serve (nor should it serve) as a route through the city for thru traffic.
In which case US 50 should be routed around downtown via I-395. Until then, it deserves to be signed.

There is no navigational justification to or benefit from signing US 50 through DC; there hasn't been for half a century. The same is true for both US 1 and US 29.
The justification is that the route exists. If the route is not intended to be followed, it should be rerouted via some route that is signed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: noelbotevera on April 21, 2021, 06:52:00 PM
Quote from: Alps on April 20, 2021, 05:56:19 PM
It is helpful to connect the two, but you're not supposed to use US 50 to do it. Everyone coming in is supposed to be destined inside the city. That's their thinking, anyway.
Fair point, but...there isn't an Alt US 50 route. US 1 gets one but it's the only route to do so...(and I guess I-395 but that's because of a tunnel)

Granted, through traffic should really be on the Beltway, but everyone knows how that turns out.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Old Dominionite on April 21, 2021, 06:54:53 PM
Quote from: Alps on April 21, 2021, 06:15:51 PM
Quote from: Old Dominionite on April 21, 2021, 07:05:47 AM
Quote from: Alps on April 21, 2021, 12:23:12 AM
Quote from: Old Dominionite on April 20, 2021, 07:07:26 PM
I'm not bothered that US 50 isn't signed well in DC. On both the MD and VA side it serves as a route into or out of the city. It doesn't serve (nor should it serve) as a route through the city for thru traffic.
In which case US 50 should be routed around downtown via I-395. Until then, it deserves to be signed.

There is no navigational justification to or benefit from signing US 50 through DC; there hasn't been for half a century. The same is true for both US 1 and US 29.
The justification is that the route exists. If the route is not intended to be followed, it should be rerouted via some route that is signed.

Sure, the route "exists" , but its purpose has evolved. On the Virginia side it serves as a feeder route to the Roosevelt Bridge. On the Maryland side it serves as a feeder route to New York Ave and DC 295. The US 50 designation becomes virtually pointless within the District itself because it's not used as a thru route anymore for east/west traffic. The Beltway takes care of that, and (to a lesser extent) the I-395/I-695(for now)/DC 295 combo.

A few signs could certainly still point to US 50 "East"  along outbound New York Avenue and to US 50 "West"  along Constitution Avenue, but that's about all the traveling public needs.

And there's no real purpose to rerouting US 50 onto another alignment because – again – it's not a thru route. Most of the traffic on US 50 east in VA is not looking to hook up with US 50 in MD, and even fewer motorists heading on US 50 west in MD are looking to hook up with US 50 in VA.

Maybe it's an unpopular opinion, but I'd have no problem with decommissioning US 1, US 29, and US 50 in the District altogether.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on April 21, 2021, 10:17:31 PM
I guess this is going slightly into fictional territory, but there definitely are some issues with the routing of US 1, 29, and 50 within DC.  These aren't really coherent routes - a lot of turns and the like to stay on route.

US 29 is only a route of national importance south of Gainesville, VA.  Between Gainesville and DC, the main routings involve I-66, US 29 is simply not needed.  Lee Hwy can be signed as a state route [or perhaps reclaim the old US 211].  There is no reason or expectation that any of this traffic will drive through DC on its way to Silver Spring.  For that reason, it would seem to make sense to have MD's US 29 between Silver Spring and Baltimore be a state highway MD-29.  No signed 29 through DC.  The MD and VA portions of this road are not a coherent path, they should not be signed as a single corridor.

US 1 and US 50 are a little different due to their own national importance and length.  While the precise routing in DC should not be set in stone, there is good reason to keep the highways in some fashion.

US 1 is the main street of the Northeast, from Maine to Key West, FL and more locally the non-freeway routing between Baltimore and Richmond.  It is fitting that Baltimore Ave and Richmond Hwy in the local suburbs are all part of US 1.  So how best to connect them?  Currently, the routing is 14th, Constitution, 6th, RI Ave.  But perhaps, it makes sense to go through Downtown on more of a freeway routing, essentially following I-395 to NY Ave to Bladensburg (which was part of the oldeer US 1 routing, now US 1 Alt) to Baltimore Ave. 

US 50 is basically a coast to coast highway (OK, a coast to West Sacramento highway) that already goes through some important cities.  As others have said, Arlington Blvd and the Hanson Hwy (DC-Annapolis) are very important regional routes that deserve some form of a connection.  Currently, the routing is Constitution, 6th, NY Ave.  This is not a terrible routing as the Hanson Hwy defaults onto NY and the TR bridge defaults onto Constitution (and you have to connect these routes in some way) but there may be a better routing to avoid Downtown streets.

US 50 onto Memorial Bridge, to Independence to Maine to I-395 north.  At this point, two main possibilities: (i) I-395 to NY Ave or (ii) the all-freeway route I-395 to I-695 to DC 295 to Hanson Hwy.

Sure, for long distance travel, the Beltway probably makes sense to connect portions of US 1 and US 50 on different  sides of teh Beltway.  So Mt Vernon to Laurel and Fairfax to Annapolis would probably be routed along the Beltway.  But let's say your starting point (or your destination point) is well within the Beltway.  How to route a trip from Inner Arlington to Annapolis or Crystal City to Laurel?  For those trips a route of US 50 and US 1 through the city is needed.  And to the extent possible the routings should avoid the Downtown streets (as I outlined above).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 22, 2021, 02:13:37 AM
Quote from: mrsman on April 21, 2021, 10:17:31 PM
US 29 is only a route of national importance south of Gainesville, VA.  Between Gainesville and DC, the main routings involve I-66, US 29 is simply not needed.  Lee Hwy can be signed as a state route [or perhaps reclaim the old US 211].  There is no reason or expectation that any of this traffic will drive through DC on its way to Silver Spring.  For that reason, it would seem to make sense to have MD's US 29 between Silver Spring and Baltimore be a state highway MD-29.  No signed 29 through DC.  The MD and VA portions of this road are not a coherent path, they should not be signed as a single corridor.

I think you would get disagreement from MDOT on that, for U.S. 29 in Maryland is not just a principal arterial, but also on the NHS - and because there are no freeways between Montgomery County and the District of Columbia, U.S. 29 is an important route for freight too.  Several other routes crossing the border between Montgomery and D.C. are ones where DDOT has discouraged truck traffic, including Piney Branch Road (MD-320), 16th Street (MD-396) and Colesville Road (MD-384).  Maryland prohibits trucks on MD-185 (Connecticut Avenue) between MD-410 and Chevy Chase Circle due to narrow lanes.  Trucks on MD-355 (Wisconsin Avenue) are not forbidden, but are discouraged due to heavy traffic and long traffic signal waits.  MD-190 (River Road) is a good truck route, but I do not think the wealthy people that live near it want a lot of truck traffic passing by, though they get some.

Clara Barton Parkway and MacArthur Boulevard in Montgomery County have truck bans at all times.

While U.S. 29 does not carry as many trucks as U.S. 50 (New York Avenue, N.E.), it will probably remain a legal truck route for the indefinite future.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on April 22, 2021, 12:07:24 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 19, 2021, 09:51:30 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 17, 2020, 07:40:04 AM
....

(https://mountvernontrail.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/8978da2b-6a49-42b2-b54b-463fa223db50.jpeg)

We drove into DC yesterday to go see the Eisenhower Memorial, mainly just for an excuse to get out of the house and do something. On the way home, we came over Memorial Bridge. Don't have any pictures because it was getting dark, but it's worth passing along that the ramp marked on the map above with "Remove southern exit ramp from Arlington Blvd. to S. Washington Blvd. prior to Hotspot #2" is now closed–blocked off with a jersey barrier. Don't know whether it's been demolished yet, but you now have to go around to the other ramp a little further up the road. As the map above indicates, that's now a two-lane exit; the left lane is left-turn only and the right lane is an option lane allowing a left onto the ramp or a straight-ahead movement towards Rosslyn. The main thing that struck me is that the turn is an extremely sharp left turn. I would be quite wary of going left from the option lane during rush hour, or whenever there's another vehicle in the left lane, simply because the turn is so sharp I would not trust people to stay in their lane. The curve seen on Google Street View there is a far more gentle curve than how it's now configured.

Memorial Bridge, incidentally, is in the best shape I've ever seen it. They did an outstanding job repairing the road surface.

Took me a moment to realize the ramp being closed was the closer ramp with the more gradual curve.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why that closer, gradual-curve ramp is a hotspot. It doesn't seem to conflict with any other movements, and I can't figure out why traffic entering from the bypass would need to take that left turn to head back southbound. And from what I can tell, they are the only traffic that couldn't previously access the more gradual-curve ramp.

Needless to say: that double left turn that now exists will need to be rebuilt. That is way too sharp for what I assume are a substantial number of cars now using the ramp.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on April 22, 2021, 12:32:37 PM
The reason I can think of for why someone using the bypass ramp would want to go left to head southbound is to access the I-395 express lanes. If you're coming from Reagan Airport and you want to use the express lanes, you essentially have two choices–use that route or go through Crystal City and Pentagon City. (Similarly, if you're in the express lanes heading TO Reagan Airport, the best route is usually to exit to VA-27 towards Memorial Bridge and then take the ramp on the right to the GW Parkway just after the on-ramp from the Pentagon parking.)

The now-closed ramp is not itself identified as a "hotspot" on that map–note how they refer to it as the southern ramp "prior to Hotspot #2." I don't know why they decided to close it. I do note that as you come off the circle there, the road is now only two lanes (used to be three), and the lane that was eliminated was the left lane that used to be left-turn-only onto that ramp. So maybe it's related to the deletion of that lane.

For many years, the main use for the ramp that is now in use was by people who wanted to park for a while to wait for HOV restrictions to expire (I may have done that myself a few times). The ramp got so little traffic that it was an ideal place to wait without impacting other traffic or putting yourself in danger the way the "wait on the shoulder" crowd did. Pull off the shoulder at 5:58 and drive the speed limit up to the ramp to the express lanes, hit that right at 6:00, and floor it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on April 26, 2021, 12:18:00 AM
Quotepeople who wanted to park for a while to wait for HOV restrictions to expire

Which itself is a huge can-of-worms...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2021, 12:54:34 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 22, 2021, 12:32:37 PM
For many years, the main use for the ramp that is now in use was by people who wanted to park for a while to wait for HOV restrictions to expire (I may have done that myself a few times). The ramp got so little traffic that it was an ideal place to wait without impacting other traffic or putting yourself in danger the way the "wait on the shoulder" crowd did. Pull off the shoulder at 5:58 and drive the speed limit up to the ramp to the express lanes, hit that right at 6:00, and floor it.

Sometimes the Arlington County Police and the Virginia State Police would swoop down on the motorists waiting for the HOV-3 restrictions on the I-395 managed roadway to expire, and all of the waiters would get ticketed.  I have seen that happen myself a few times.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on April 26, 2021, 07:47:59 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2021, 12:54:34 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 22, 2021, 12:32:37 PM
For many years, the main use for the ramp that is now in use was by people who wanted to park for a while to wait for HOV restrictions to expire (I may have done that myself a few times). The ramp got so little traffic that it was an ideal place to wait without impacting other traffic or putting yourself in danger the way the "wait on the shoulder" crowd did. Pull off the shoulder at 5:58 and drive the speed limit up to the ramp to the express lanes, hit that right at 6:00, and floor it.

Sometimes the Arlington County Police and the Virginia State Police would swoop down on the motorists waiting for the HOV-3 restrictions on the I-395 managed roadway to expire, and all of the waiters would get ticketed.  I have seen that happen myself a few times.

I used to see that fairly frequently on I-395 itself, but I never saw it happen on the ramp I in question here, most likely for two reasons–(1) until recently when it became the only route there, it was sort of isolated and not well-known, so parking there to wait wasn't a safety hazard and the cops likely ignored it; and (2) more importantly, I seldom went that way myself (other than a very few times when I want to do the "wait for 6:00 thing") and so I didn't have many opportunities to see what, if any, enforcement there was.

All moot now, of course!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: epzik8 on May 18, 2021, 07:03:15 AM
It's been four months and I only just learned of the plan to shift I-395 over I-695 and turn the Center Leg Freeway into I-195. The Center Leg is a very different highway physically from the rest of 395, thanks to the tunnel, so I can't complain about AASHTO approving the District's request. In fact, I used to think the Southeast Freeway was part of 295 since 695 wasn't signed when I first took the Baltimore-Washington Parkway into the District and followed DC 295 to I-295 to the Wilson Bridge.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on May 18, 2021, 04:42:45 PM
Although the renumbering of Interstates 395 and 695 were approved in January, I am beginning to wonder if the renumbering will occur at all. Does anyone know how long it takes to manufacture and erect new signs? At any rate, if the approved renumbering is going to happen, DC had better get a move on it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on May 18, 2021, 06:06:19 PM
It will get done eventually.  Though it took them 40 years, I-695 did get signed.

Many of the signs in question are fairly new.  While DDOT could certainly slap an overlay up, it wouldn't surprise me if they waited until the overheads needed replacement.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 20, 2021, 08:53:15 AM
WTOP Radio: Changing driving patterns emerge as traffic in DC region picks up (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/05/changing-driving-patterns-emerge-as-traffic-in-dc-region-picks-up/)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on May 20, 2021, 10:39:44 AM
A recent WSJ article noted that that in several metro areas, especially in Florida, afternoon traffic is actually HIGHER now than it was pre-COVID.  Morning traffic is still noticeably lower.  The premise is that many people who have been working from home are out running errands in the afternoon.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 20, 2021, 12:35:48 PM
That seems plausible enough to me. I don't generally run errands during the day despite working from home, but on Tuesday we took one of the cars to the mechanic at 1:00 and traffic on Van Dorn Street was fairly heavy, enough so that it took almost 40 minutes to go maybe six miles roundtrip (including the time spent speaking to the mechanic as part of the roundtrip travel time).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 20, 2021, 01:09:05 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 20, 2021, 10:39:44 AM
A recent WSJ article noted that that in several metro areas, especially in Florida, afternoon traffic is actually HIGHER now than it was pre-COVID.  Morning traffic is still noticeably lower.  The premise is that many people who have been working from home are out running errands in the afternoon.

That is consistent with my observations.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 21, 2021, 08:13:23 AM
Great stuff here from Dave Dildine of WTOP. The paragraphs quoted below are just the first three paragraphs of a much longer story.

Full story: Surviving DC traffic: A satirical guide to navigating the nation's capital (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/05/surviving-dc-traffic-a-satirical-guide-to-navigating-the-nations-capital/)

QuoteD.C. morning rush hour starts at 5 a.m. and lasts until 4 p.m. The afternoon rush hour starts at 7 a.m. and lasts until Sunday. Friday rush hour started during the Hoover administration and will last until the end of time and space.

East-west travel through the District of Columbia is impossible, unless you're on the Southeast-Southwest Freeway where the average speed is 90 mph. No one knows what the freeway is called or numbered though. Some people call it I-695. Some people call it I-395. Some people refer to it as West Side Highway.

Another busy freeway that runs through D.C. is the Potomac River Freeway. No one knows what this freeway is called either, so they simply refer to it as "that road behind the Kennedy Center."  If you need to tell someone what road you're on, you can refer to it as "that road behind the Kennedy Center"  but they might assume you're talking about the E Street Expressway, which is an entirely different road.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 21, 2021, 09:29:07 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2021, 08:13:23 AM
Great stuff here from Dave Dildine of WTOP. The paragraphs quoted below are just the first three paragraphs of a much longer story.

Only thing that Dave left out was an admonishment not to get into a crash on any D.C. freeway, since help will invariably be sent by D.C. 911 to the wrong location - sometimes it takes two or three attempts for the Metropolitan Police Department and D.C. Fire to arrive at the correct location.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 21, 2021, 10:08:21 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 21, 2021, 09:29:07 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2021, 08:13:23 AM
Great stuff here from Dave Dildine of WTOP. The paragraphs quoted below are just the first three paragraphs of a much longer story.

Only thing that Dave left out was an admonishment not to get into a crash on any D.C. freeway, since help will invariably be sent by D.C. 911 to the wrong location - sometimes it takes two or three attempts for the Metropolitan Police Department and D.C. Fire to arrive at the correct location.

https://twitter.com/1995hoo/status/1395721921556254723
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jemacedo9 on May 21, 2021, 11:56:03 AM
That story was absolutely fantastic!!!!   :-D :clap:
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on May 21, 2021, 01:01:23 PM
That bit about the DC 295 exit numbers made me think of the MUTCD thread.  Looks like we have somewhere that does the suffixes as FHWA wants, with all the confusion that entails.

I know Dave Dildine has interacted with roadgeek circles before... some of the things in that article remind me of Alanland.  I wonder if he's read that thread.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 21, 2021, 01:40:39 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 21, 2021, 01:01:23 PM
That bit about the DC 295 exit numbers made me think of the MUTCD thread.  Looks like we have somewhere that does the suffixes as FHWA wants, with all the confusion that entails.

I know Dave Dildine has interacted with roadgeek circles before... some of the things in that article remind me of Alanland.  I wonder if he's read that thread.

I thought about mentioning the exit number part in my prior post because I knew you in particular would get a kick out of that, but I figured it was more fun to read the article for yourself.

I suppose I could respond to his most recent tweet by asking him whether the sequel will tell us where to find the portal to Alanland.

https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1395789745482084356
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on May 21, 2021, 08:51:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2021, 01:40:39 PM
I suppose I could respond to his most recent tweet by asking him whether the sequel will tell us where to find the portal to Alanland.
I'm pretty sure that's I-366.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on May 21, 2021, 10:52:47 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 21, 2021, 08:51:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2021, 01:40:39 PM
I suppose I could respond to his most recent tweet by asking him whether the sequel will tell us where to find the portal to Alanland.
I'm pretty sure that's I-366.
Which must intersect I-66...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mariethefoxy on May 24, 2021, 08:56:27 PM
was it ever revealed what this concealed sign said? I know this one was removed in the conversion to Southeast Blvd

(https://www.aaroads.com/wp-content/albums/i-695-dc-archive/i-695_eb_exit_001d_10.jpg)

I know the one on 66 ended up having a 695 South sign on it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on May 24, 2021, 09:43:30 PM
That's probably a beat-up old sign for RFK Stadium.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: machpost on May 28, 2021, 11:52:40 AM
Just got this traffic advisory from DC Alert:

Quote(Washington, DC) - The District Department of Transportation (DDOT) will temporarily close lanes, ramps and shoulders on the following roadways to perform construction activities along I-395 and I-695 for the replacement of signage and sign structures. Work is scheduled to take place starting Tuesday, June 1 through Friday, June 11, 2021, weather permitting.

Weekdays from 10:00 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.:
* Single Left Lane Closure on Center Leg Freeway Southbound south of the 3 rd Street Tunnel.
* Full closure of the ramps from C Street SW and Washington Avenue SW to I-695 Eastbound.
* Full closure of ramp from I-395 Northbound to C Street SW.
* Single Right Lane Closure on ramp from I-695 Westbound to Center Leg Freeway.
* Single Right Lane Closure in both directions on New York Avenue NE from West Virginia Avenue NE to east of Bladensburg Road NE (starting at 9:30 a.m.).

For the C Street SW and Washington Avenue SW ramp closures, vehicles will be detoured using Independence Avenue SW, 9th Street Expressway, and I-395 Northbound. If access to Independence Avenue is prohibited due to security measures, vehicles will be detoured using 2nd Street SW, I-395 Southbound, 7th Street SW, and I-395 Northbound.

For the closure of the C Street SW ramp from I-395 Northbound, vehicles will be detoured using I-695 Eastbound, South Capitol Street SE/SW (U-turning at M Street SE/SW), and Washington Avenue SW.

The Interstate 395 (I-395) Sign Structure project focuses on the replacement and repair of existing sign structures along the I-395 corridor; and on New York Avenue NE, east of Bladensburg Road NE. This includes the corridor-wide furnishing and installation of overhead traffic guide signs (sign mounting structures and panels), electrical systems, and lighting fixtures. There will also be the removal of existing overhead signs, sign structures, and electrical systems.

For more information about the Interstate 395 Sign Structure Improvement Project and to stay up-to-date on traffic related impacts and construction progress, please visit: https://ddot.dc.gov/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on May 28, 2021, 12:22:07 PM
^Is there anyway to access the signage plans for this?  I cannot find anything on DDOT's website.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 12, 2021, 07:02:43 PM
Part of Beach Drive will stay closed to cars while National Park Service studies permanent closure - The Park Service said it will continue to limit daily traffic on the road at least into the fall. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/06/11/beach-drive-rock-creek-closed/?fbclid=IwAR37l7FIkJ3bEaHy8zAaAzvcbx_2hPxot1ZNUJmZEDJR0b1Yx91DCBiYFlg)

QuoteThe National Park Service will keep part of Beach Drive car-free through Rock Creek Park while it analyzes what would happen if it made the restriction permanent, the agency said Friday.

QuoteThe northern section of Beach Drive was closed to vehicles in April 2020 as the coronavirus raged, creating a popular weekday recreation area for people on foot and bikes. Before the pandemic, commuters used the route to make their way downtown from Northwest D.C. and Maryland. It was closed to cars only on weekends and holidays.

QuoteThe Park Service said it will continue to restrict cars on the road at least into the fall, when it will present its analysis and options – shaped by public feedback – for the future.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on June 12, 2021, 08:03:21 PM
Upper Beach Drive is a nice hike through the city. That commuter route is really only useful for Chevy Chase residents heading downtown.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 13, 2021, 01:58:24 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 12, 2021, 08:03:21 PM
Upper Beach Drive is a nice hike through the city. That commuter route is really only useful for Chevy Chase residents heading downtown.

And Silver Spring and Kensington and Wheaton.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on June 13, 2021, 11:12:13 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 13, 2021, 01:58:24 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 12, 2021, 08:03:21 PM
Upper Beach Drive is a nice hike through the city. That commuter route is really only useful for Chevy Chase residents heading downtown.

And Silver Spring and Kensington and Wheaton.

I have some mixed feelings on this.  I work in Downtown DC, but have been WFH for the past 15 months, and probably won't get sent back to the office till September.  I usually commute by Metro, but commuting by driving (or bus, which would also be subject to traffic) is not completely out of the qn, especially if I have errands to run after work.

I am concerned that the closure of Beach dr will certainly make driving Downtown a bit harder and will cause some congestion spillover onto other parallel streets.  One thing that they should consider is an all-way stop at Beach and Bladgen, as there will likely be a lot more traffic using Bladgen as a connetor to 16th

At the same time, having the recreational space of RC Pk would be a definite plus for a lot of people.  So, I prefer to be cautious.  NPS  and DDOT need to monitor traffic levels on all neighboing steets, local and regional, to determine whether reopening would be necessary.  Under no circumstance should NPS permanently give up the rights to reopen, as they must keep track of the causes and effects.

And they really must wait to judge traffic in the fall when kids go back to school and (as expected) the gov't and most other DC employers bring their workers back to determine what the true traffic levels are.  If a partial WFH becomes the new normal, perhaps there would be enough traffic displaced by WFH to enable a Beach Dr closure without deleterious traffic affect.  But we certainly won't know that during the summer, when traffic is generally lighter any way.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 14, 2021, 04:12:23 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 13, 2021, 11:12:13 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 13, 2021, 01:58:24 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 12, 2021, 08:03:21 PM
Upper Beach Drive is a nice hike through the city. That commuter route is really only useful for Chevy Chase residents heading downtown.

And Silver Spring and Kensington and Wheaton.

I have some mixed feelings on this.  I work in Downtown DC, but have been WFH for the past 15 months, and probably won't get sent back to the office till September.  I usually commute by Metro, but commuting by driving (or bus, which would also be subject to traffic) is not completely out of the qn, especially if I have errands to run after work.

I am concerned that the closure of Beach dr will certainly make driving Downtown a bit harder and will cause some congestion spillover onto other parallel streets.  One thing that they should consider is an all-way stop at Beach and Bladgen, as there will likely be a lot more traffic using Bladgen as a connetor to 16th

At the same time, having the recreational space of RC Pk would be a definite plus for a lot of people.  So, I prefer to be cautious.  NPS  and DDOT need to monitor traffic levels on all neighboing steets, local and regional, to determine whether reopening would be necessary.  Under no circumstance should NPS permanently give up the rights to reopen, as they must keep track of the causes and effects.

And they really must wait to judge traffic in the fall when kids go back to school and (as expected) the gov't and most other DC employers bring their workers back to determine what the true traffic levels are.  If a partial WFH becomes the new normal, perhaps there would be enough traffic displaced by WFH to enable a Beach Dr closure without deleterious traffic affect.  But we certainly won't know that during the summer, when traffic is generally lighter any way.

My issue with this is that people are spinning it as being about COVID19 and the resulting reduction in traffic.  It's not.  Efforts to close Beach Drive, N.W. to Maryland drivers have been going on for at least 20 years, maybe 30 years.  One of the most-noxious of he anti-ICC crowd also carried on in favor of closing Beach Drive, N.W. (at the time this person lived in Takoma Park) and ran a group called "Auto Free D.C." (now defunct).  It was about closing it.  It was not about reducing traffic.  Consider also that D.C. residents would likely react with fury if the Rock Creek and Potomac Parkway (south of the southern terminus of Beach Drive just south of the Calvert Street Bridge and the Taft Bridge (Connecticut Avenue, N.W.)). 

The Rock Creek and Potomac Parkway is also NPS property, just as Beach Drive is as far north as the Maryland border - why not close all of it?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on June 14, 2021, 04:28:43 PM
I don't discount the threat of the anti-road folks.  They have a very political agenda and in the current political climate, their voice is getting stronger.  In the interests of climate change, they would love to have everyone give up their cars and bike or take transit everywhere.   Short of mandating that, they are happy to make driving as miserable as possible by promoting the cancellation of freeways, traffic calming, increased driving costs, and other measures.

At the same time, even if I don't like the messenger, I can still like the message.  I don't think there is a risk of closing the more southerly sections of Beach drive or RC Pkwy, because they are currently open.  It is not yet part of the discussion, so i don't think it should be worried about.  RC Pkwy is known as the relief valve to relieve Connecticut Ave traffic as it necks down from 4 SB rush hour lanes near the zoo to 2 as it goes over the bridge.  It is also a busier section.

THe plan as is would still leave many parts open in order to drive to the parking lots within the park.  The southern part needs to be open to access the zoo.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 15, 2021, 10:42:26 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 14, 2021, 04:28:43 PM
I don't discount the threat of the anti-road folks.  They have a very political agenda and in the current political climate, their voice is getting stronger.  In the interests of climate change, they would love to have everyone give up their cars and bike or take transit everywhere.   Short of mandating that, they are happy to make driving as miserable as possible by promoting the cancellation of freeways, traffic calming, increased driving costs, and other measures.

All of this in support of the mythical idea that these sorts of measures will force people out of their cars and onto public transportation, which usually does not happen.

Quote from: mrsman on June 14, 2021, 04:28:43 PM
At the same time, even if I don't like the messenger, I can still like the message.  I don't think there is a risk of closing the more southerly sections of Beach drive or RC Pkwy, because they are currently open.  It is not yet part of the discussion, so i don't think it should be worried about.  RC Pkwy is known as the relief valve to relieve Connecticut Ave traffic as it necks down from 4 SB rush hour lanes near the zoo to 2 as it goes over the bridge.  It is also a busier section.

My guess is that if they succeed in closing permanently all or most of Beach Drive, then they will try to get added sections closed for good as well.

Quote from: mrsman on June 14, 2021, 04:28:43 PM
THe plan as is would still leave many parts open in order to drive to the parking lots within the park.  The southern part needs to be open to access the zoo.

The persons and groups in favor of closure don't care about drivers needing to transit the area to the east of the National Zoo.  In their stated opinion, those drivers should be taking the Metrorail Red Line (never mind that its operations will be severely impacted by construction projects (to include a long-term single-tracking operation) in the coming months) and never mind that their destinations may not be near a Metro station).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 23, 2021, 12:46:45 PM
It appears a pedestrian bridge has collapsed on DC-295.

https://twitter.com/STATter911/status/1407739480283488256


Edited to add a second tweet with better pictures:

https://twitter.com/dcfireems/status/1407742978907676678
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on June 23, 2021, 12:58:41 PM
Memories of the pedestrian bridge collapse outside Miami are suddenly flashing in my mind. Really creepy.

Glad no one was killed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 23, 2021, 01:18:04 PM
One of the tweets I found (from WTOP Traffic) states that the pedestrian overpass was "struck" - and there is a truck partially stuck beneath the bridge.  Will be interesting to see what the preliminary investigation determines.

Also worth noting that there are 2 other pedestrian overpasses just northeast of the collapsed one that appear to be of similar age/design (if it was in fact a structural failure).

https://twitter.com/WTOPtraffic/status/1407734511106932748

Quote from: Dave Statter on June 23, 2021, 12:46:45 PM
This seems like a good time to remind news folks (and others) that this is NOT I-295. This is DC-295. There is a differencee.

FWIW, A quick peek at MDOT's CHART website shows they got it wrong too...a couple VMS's on I-95/495 & US 50 in the area are currently displaying:

      CRASH IN D.C.
I-295 S AT BENNING RD
   ALL LANES CLOSED
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on June 23, 2021, 01:41:57 PM
Pulled open the traffic layer for Google Maps.

Obviously DC-295/I-295 is all held up, but it appears that traffic has largely diverted to the Beltway. The section near Landover/Andrews AB are noticeably slow as well.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 23, 2021, 01:44:10 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on June 23, 2021, 01:18:04 PM
....

Quote from: Dave Statter on June 23, 2021, 12:46:45 PM
This seems like a good time to remind news folks (and others) that this is NOT I-295. This is DC-295. There is a differencee.

FWIW, A quick peek at MDOT's CHART website shows they got it wrong too...a couple VMS's on I-95/495 & US 50 in the area are currently displaying:

      CRASH IN D.C.
I-295 S AT BENNING RD
   ALL LANES CLOSED

https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1407755019391225859
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on June 23, 2021, 01:47:15 PM
Also, it seems like it's the pedestrian bridge at Lane Pl NE

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9049823,-76.9408062,3a,75y,230.45h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUJAYpZJg8ROGzAqLA73Kdg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DUJAYpZJg8ROGzAqLA73Kdg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D223.29672%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on June 23, 2021, 01:55:49 PM
Strong suspicion is that the dump rolloff truck under the bridge debris had its bed up, causing the collapse.

Edited to correct type of truck, and to post that: Apparently it was not carrying a dumpster at the time.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 23, 2021, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on June 23, 2021, 01:47:15 PM
Also, it seems like it's the pedestrian bridge at Lane Pl NE

....

That looks correct to me. Polk Street is TWO pedestrian bridges further to the north and is a decent bit more than half a mile from Benning Road.

Edited to add: WTOP's article is clearer and says it's near the "Polk Street Service Road exit."  :rolleyes:

https://wtop.com/dc/2021/06/6-injured-after-pedestrian-bridge-collapses-in-ne-dc-closes-i-295/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: MASTERNC on June 23, 2021, 04:17:28 PM
What a mess on the Beltway because of this
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 23, 2021, 07:34:17 PM
A few comments:

1. This is not the first time a pedestrian bridge has been knocked down by a truck on DC-295.  There used to be an identical bridge over DC-295 between Benning Road, N.E. and Nannie Helen Burroughs Avenue, N.E. that was knocked down by an overheight truck in the 1970's or 1980's (before it was signed as DC-295).  A new (and higher) bridge was built and stands there today.

2.  There is an abandoned railroad bridge where carloads of coal used to be delivered to the now-defunct PEPCO Benning Road generating station just north of Benning Road, N.E.  The generating station is long-gone and torn-down but the bridge remains.  It has also been struck several times but because it is a lot more robust design and construction, it has not been severely damaged.  But DDOT should still remove it, as it is unlikely that a train will ever again visit the PEPCO Benning Road property (they use it as storage yard and parking area for their truck fleet).

3.  The bridges (or now bridge) over DC-295 between Nannie Helen Burroughs and Eastern Avenue, N.E. were built in the late 1950's or early 1960's and do not comply with current height standards for Interstates.  Yes, I know DC-295 is not an interstate but it functions as one. I think these bridges were about 13' 9" (4.2 meters).  Current standard for vertical clearance now days seems to be about 16' 0" (about 4.9 metes).

4.  Northbound has a sign after Benning Road but does not show what the overhead clearance is (here (https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-0/p75x225/205162345_10222103785135771_791731624510024856_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=39Kew4SoWvwAX_FEVa3&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&tp=6&oh=93c79bb49aa372865c8425c6ef0fa625&oe=60D88542)).  Southbound has a sign on MD-201 before Eastern Avenue, N.E. but it is on the left behind a steel guardrail, apparently because drunk drivers on their way home to D.C. kept hitting it (here (https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-0/p240x240/205834531_10222103779175622_539905682265039979_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=yhlZ2Qpf4TQAX_uerWp&tn=RAPqOsQT9GXtwbAF&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&tp=6&oh=840c859a03f6ce92641a2e1c7f305da2&oe=60D81988)).

Washington Post article here (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/pedestrian-bridge-collapse-washington/2021/06/23/3202ec06-d43f-11eb-9f29-e9e6c9e843c6_story.html).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on June 24, 2021, 08:14:52 AM
A northbound driver posted their dashcam footage of the collapse as it happened - looks pretty clear the truck did indeed cause it.

https://twitter.com/thesierrafox/status/1407900929152716800
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 24, 2021, 08:50:24 AM
WTOP has the same video, but it looked less grainy on their website (at least, it looked less grainy on my screen). The highway has reopened already.

https://wtop.com/dc/2021/06/6-injured-after-pedestrian-bridge-collapses-in-ne-dc-closes-i-295/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 07, 2021, 08:08:18 AM
WTOP reports that the FHWA approved the Interstate renumbering for I-395 and I-695 (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/07/exclusive-feds-sign-off-on-biggest-dc-interstate-renumbering-in-decades/). There's a bit of editorializing about I-695 late in the article.

Edited to add: If you click through and expand the photo captions, you'll find the term "big green signs."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Henry on July 07, 2021, 10:45:26 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 07, 2021, 08:08:18 AM
WTOP reports that the FHWA approved the Interstate renumbering for I-395 and I-695 (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/07/exclusive-feds-sign-off-on-biggest-dc-interstate-renumbering-in-decades/). There's a bit of editorializing about I-695 late in the article.

Edited to add: If you click through and expand the photo captions, you'll find the term "big green signs."
No one's going to miss I-695, but the introduction of I-195 will probably open the door to new confusion with another Baltimore 3di (in this case, it's the one that clearly runs east-west from Catonsville to the BWI Airport).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 07, 2021, 12:51:59 PM
Quote from: Henry on July 07, 2021, 10:45:26 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 07, 2021, 08:08:18 AM
WTOP reports that the FHWA approved the Interstate renumbering for I-395 and I-695 (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/07/exclusive-feds-sign-off-on-biggest-dc-interstate-renumbering-in-decades/). There's a bit of editorializing about I-695 late in the article.

Edited to add: If you click through and expand the photo captions, you'll find the term "big green signs."
No one's going to miss I-695, but the introduction of I-195 will probably open the door to new confusion with another Baltimore 3di (in this case, it's the one that clearly runs east-west from Catonsville to the BWI Airport).

Doubtful.  There isn't much confusion between the two I-395s...and most of that is from clueless tourists who don't know how to read a map to begin with.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 07, 2021, 01:04:36 PM
We had some discussion of the numbers earlier in this thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=714.msg2562194#msg2562194) and the general consensus seemed to be that there is no legitimate reason for confusion but that if there were, the solution would be to make the tunnel I-995.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 07, 2021, 01:57:17 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 07, 2021, 12:51:59 PM
Quote from: Henry on July 07, 2021, 10:45:26 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 07, 2021, 08:08:18 AM
WTOP reports that the FHWA approved the Interstate renumbering for I-395 and I-695 (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/07/exclusive-feds-sign-off-on-biggest-dc-interstate-renumbering-in-decades/). There's a bit of editorializing about I-695 late in the article.

Edited to add: If you click through and expand the photo captions, you'll find the term "big green signs."
No one's going to miss I-695, but the introduction of I-195 will probably open the door to new confusion with another Baltimore 3di (in this case, it's the one that clearly runs east-west from Catonsville to the BWI Airport).

Doubtful.  There isn't much confusion between the two I-395s...and most of that is from clueless tourists who don't know how to read a map to begin with.

I-195 in Maryland is relatively short (2.15 miles in Baltimore County and 2.56 miles in Anne Arundel County), not as "major" as I-195's in New Jersey (34 miles) and Rhode Island and Massachusetts (44 miles).

I do not think a 195 in D.C. will lead to confusion.  Like I-195 in Florida, it will have a terminus at a signalized intersection at one end.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on July 07, 2021, 03:54:08 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 07, 2021, 08:08:18 AM
WTOP reports that the FHWA approved the Interstate renumbering for I-395 and I-695 (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/07/exclusive-feds-sign-off-on-biggest-dc-interstate-renumbering-in-decades/). There's a bit of editorializing about I-695 late in the article.

Edited to add: If you click through and expand the photo captions, you'll find the term "big green signs."

Question about the new exit numbers on the I-395 and I-195 sections: will they do mile-based or sequential? I am betting on the latter since it will be much easier to do rather than doing a whole renumbering with an alphabet soup of 1s and 2s.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 07, 2021, 04:17:55 PM
Almost certain to be sequential. If you click the link I posted in Reply 1250 to some discussion earlier in this thread and you read the pages that follow that, you'll find some discussion of this issue from before. Most of us, with the notable exception of vdeane, agreed that sequential is more practical in that particular location.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on July 07, 2021, 09:51:16 PM
I still think that mile-based numbers could be done without too much alphabet soup - you just need to be willing to have some numbers off by 1 and to get away from the sequential mindset of assigning numbers willy-nilly to every single ramp, even when you're dealing with a bunch of half interchanges pointed in opposite directions.

Just look at I-91 in MA - most of the numbers decreased, yet there is very little alphabet soup.  Why?  Because MassDOT consolidated the numbers down (personally, I would have gone further and changed SB exit 1 to 2).  The result is a numbering system that (mostly) complies with the national standard (sequential isn't even an option in either the 2009 or draft 2020 MUTCDs) and which is much more elegant than the old sequential numbers.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 08, 2021, 12:32:58 AM
Solution in search of a problem, regarding sequential vs milage based. I don't even know what advantage it would convey, to say nothing of the non-intuitive numbering.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 09, 2021, 10:08:33 AM
Mayor Bowser (https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/07/09/dc-pedestrian-bridge-collapse/) announced that DDOT will replace the collapsed pedestrian bridge over 295.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 09, 2021, 10:35:03 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 07, 2021, 08:08:18 AM
WTOP reports that the FHWA approved the Interstate renumbering for I-395 and I-695 (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/07/exclusive-feds-sign-off-on-biggest-dc-interstate-renumbering-in-decades/). There's a bit of editorializing about I-695 late in the article.

Edited to add: If you click through and expand the photo captions, you'll find the term "big green signs."

https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1412822883013906441
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 09, 2021, 01:03:02 PM
Let us know when the signage is changed. Ditto with what exit sequence is chosen.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on July 11, 2021, 08:09:48 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 15, 2021, 10:42:26 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 14, 2021, 04:28:43 PM
I don't discount the threat of the anti-road folks.  They have a very political agenda and in the current political climate, their voice is getting stronger.  In the interests of climate change, they would love to have everyone give up their cars and bike or take transit everywhere.   Short of mandating that, they are happy to make driving as miserable as possible by promoting the cancellation of freeways, traffic calming, increased driving costs, and other measures.

All of this in support of the mythical idea that these sorts of measures will force people out of their cars and onto public transportation, which usually does not happen.

Quote from: mrsman on June 14, 2021, 04:28:43 PM
At the same time, even if I don't like the messenger, I can still like the message.  I don't think there is a risk of closing the more southerly sections of Beach drive or RC Pkwy, because they are currently open.  It is not yet part of the discussion, so i don't think it should be worried about.  RC Pkwy is known as the relief valve to relieve Connecticut Ave traffic as it necks down from 4 SB rush hour lanes near the zoo to 2 as it goes over the bridge.  It is also a busier section.

My guess is that if they succeed in closing permanently all or most of Beach Drive, then they will try to get added sections closed for good as well.

Quote from: mrsman on June 14, 2021, 04:28:43 PM
THe plan as is would still leave many parts open in order to drive to the parking lots within the park.  The southern part needs to be open to access the zoo.

The persons and groups in favor of closure don't care about drivers needing to transit the area to the east of the National Zoo.  In their stated opinion, those drivers should be taking the Metrorail Red Line (never mind that its operations will be severely impacted by construction projects (to include a long-term single-tracking operation) in the coming months) and never mind that their destinations may not be near a Metro station).

The National Park Service held their hearing online about the Beach Drive closure this past Thursday.

Links to the presentation, both the slides and the Q&A period that follows, as well as links to submit comments are also included.

https://parkplanning.nps.gov/beachdrive



Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on July 11, 2021, 06:39:48 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 07, 2021, 01:57:17 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 07, 2021, 12:51:59 PM
Quote from: Henry on July 07, 2021, 10:45:26 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 07, 2021, 08:08:18 AM
WTOP reports that the FHWA approved the Interstate renumbering for I-395 and I-695 (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/07/exclusive-feds-sign-off-on-biggest-dc-interstate-renumbering-in-decades/). There's a bit of editorializing about I-695 late in the article.

Edited to add: If you click through and expand the photo captions, you'll find the term "big green signs."
No one's going to miss I-695, but the introduction of I-195 will probably open the door to new confusion with another Baltimore 3di (in this case, it's the one that clearly runs east-west from Catonsville to the BWI Airport).

Doubtful.  There isn't much confusion between the two I-395s...and most of that is from clueless tourists who don't know how to read a map to begin with.

I-195 in Maryland is relatively short (2.15 miles in Baltimore County and 2.56 miles in Anne Arundel County), not as "major" as I-195's in New Jersey (34 miles) and Rhode Island and Massachusetts (44 miles).

I do not think a 195 in D.C. will lead to confusion.  Like I-195 in Florida, it will have a terminus at a signalized intersection at one end.

I think the new numbering scheme here would be highly beneficial.  FWIW, the major movement of thru-DC traffic goes from the 14th street bridge, along the Southeast-Southwest freeway and then continues on the 11th street bridge towards DC-295.  This entire movement should be one number, and under the proposal it will be one number: I-395.

Before the completion of what is now known as the DC-295/I-295/I-695 interchange, more of the traffic may have used NY Ave.  This may have justified the 3rd street tunnel spur continuting the I-395 number, but now it no longer makes sense.  The new I-195 will be used as a local connector, so those people in the north-central parts of Downtown (Union Station and Convention Center area) can have access to the I-395 freeway.   It will no longer be part of a regional connection.

With that in mind, perhaps DDOT, NPS, and any relevant authority could do more to prioritize the new movement over the old movement.  First, there is an imbalance on the northbound merger of traffic from NY Ave to the B-W parkway.  2 lanes from NY Ave on the left merge with 2 lanes from DC-295 on the right, and then right after the merger the right lane ends and a merge is forced and then about another mile north at Annapolis Rd, the new right lane also ends forcing another merge.  So basically, the heavier traffic from DC-295 is froced to merge to stay on the parkway, but NY Ave traffic can just drive through.  Given that NY Ave traffic is now a lower percentage of travel, the two lanes from NY Ave should merge into one lane before merging in to the BW Pkwy.  This will allow the left lane of DC-295 to not require merging, and give traffic in the right lane of DC-295 a whole mile to merge in to the remaining two lanes.

Secondly, southbound at this point, the signs should indicate that traffic for Downtown DC should stay on DC-295 and not use NY Ave.  It may also be helpful to downgrade the exit from two lanes to one lane to further emphasize the point.

Third, and I know this is a pipe dream, DC-295 between E Capitol and the 695/295 interchange is mostly two lanes in each direction (except for some of the interchange approach roads).  Because of this narrow 1.5 mile stretch, a lot of Downtown bound traffic is using East Capitol to reach DC-295, thereby bringing a lot more traffic through what is essentially a residential area.  The I-395 and the I-295 traffic each merges in with two lanes worth of traffic, so at least three lanes need to continue northward until at least the US 50 interchange to keep traffic moving. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Jmiles32 on July 11, 2021, 07:57:28 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 11, 2021, 06:39:48 PM
With that in mind, perhaps DDOT, NPS, and any relevant authority could do more to prioritize the new movement over the old movement.  First, there is an imbalance on the northbound merger of traffic from NY Ave to the B-W parkway.  2 lanes from NY Ave on the left merge with 2 lanes from DC-295 on the right, and then right after the merger the right lane ends and a merge is forced and then about another mile north at Annapolis Rd, the new right lane also ends forcing another merge.  So basically, the heavier traffic from DC-295 is froced to merge to stay on the parkway, but NY Ave traffic can just drive through.  Given that NY Ave traffic is now a lower percentage of travel, the two lanes from NY Ave should merge into one lane before merging in to the BW Pkwy.  This will allow the left lane of DC-295 to not require merging, and give traffic in the right lane of DC-295 a whole mile to merge in to the remaining two lanes.

Secondly, southbound at this point, the signs should indicate that traffic for Downtown DC should stay on DC-295 and not use NY Ave.  It may also be helpful to downgrade the exit from two lanes to one lane to further emphasize the point.

Third, and I know this is a pipe dream, DC-295 between E Capitol and the 695/295 interchange is mostly two lanes in each direction (except for some of the interchange approach roads).  Because of this narrow 1.5 mile stretch, a lot of Downtown bound traffic is using East Capitol to reach DC-295, thereby bringing a lot more traffic through what is essentially a residential area.  The I-395 and the I-295 traffic each merges in with two lanes worth of traffic, so at least three lanes need to continue northward until at least the US 50 interchange to keep traffic moving.

It baffles me that six-laning DC-295 between Pennsylvania Avenue and East Capital Street would be considered a "pipe dream". This is not the southeast freeway we're talking about here. There is plenty of ROW and this stretch is only 1.5 miles long, maybe even less. Furthermore, the East Capital street and Pennsylvania Avenue interchange bridges would likely not have to be rebuilt. While the bridge over the railroad would have to be widened, I don't believe that it would be that difficult nor expensive to do so. Just don't understand how this isn't on the district's radar when it is clearly the number one reason why traffic on DC-295 is so frequently bad.

Regarding further movement improvements, I would argue that in addition to the merge improvements you mention, that the interchange at I-95/I-495 gets completely rebuilt. This outdated cloverleaf is now arguably the worst interchange in the entire region and causes delays/backups on both the beltway and parkway all the time. I suspect that Maryland was hoping that similarly to what was done on I-66, a PP3 HOT lane deal on MD-295/BW Parkway would result in this interchange (along with others and the equally as bad MD-32 cloverleaf) getting completely rebuilt at no cost to the state. Regardless, something needs to be done here soon.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on July 11, 2021, 08:28:19 PM
Quote from: Jmiles32 on July 11, 2021, 07:57:28 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 11, 2021, 06:39:48 PM
With that in mind, perhaps DDOT, NPS, and any relevant authority could do more to prioritize the new movement over the old movement.  First, there is an imbalance on the northbound merger of traffic from NY Ave to the B-W parkway.  2 lanes from NY Ave on the left merge with 2 lanes from DC-295 on the right, and then right after the merger the right lane ends and a merge is forced and then about another mile north at Annapolis Rd, the new right lane also ends forcing another merge.  So basically, the heavier traffic from DC-295 is froced to merge to stay on the parkway, but NY Ave traffic can just drive through.  Given that NY Ave traffic is now a lower percentage of travel, the two lanes from NY Ave should merge into one lane before merging in to the BW Pkwy.  This will allow the left lane of DC-295 to not require merging, and give traffic in the right lane of DC-295 a whole mile to merge in to the remaining two lanes.

Secondly, southbound at this point, the signs should indicate that traffic for Downtown DC should stay on DC-295 and not use NY Ave.  It may also be helpful to downgrade the exit from two lanes to one lane to further emphasize the point.

Third, and I know this is a pipe dream, DC-295 between E Capitol and the 695/295 interchange is mostly two lanes in each direction (except for some of the interchange approach roads).  Because of this narrow 1.5 mile stretch, a lot of Downtown bound traffic is using East Capitol to reach DC-295, thereby bringing a lot more traffic through what is essentially a residential area.  The I-395 and the I-295 traffic each merges in with two lanes worth of traffic, so at least three lanes need to continue northward until at least the US 50 interchange to keep traffic moving.

It baffles me that six-laning DC-295 between Pennsylvania Avenue and East Capital Street would be considered a "pipe dream". This is not the southeast freeway we're talking about here. There is plenty of ROW and this stretch is only 1.5 miles long, maybe even less. Furthermore, the East Capital street and Pennsylvania Avenue interchange bridges would likely not have to be rebuilt. While the bridge over the railroad would have to be widened, I don't believe that it would be that difficult nor expensive to do so. Just don't understand how this isn't on the district's radar when it is clearly the number one reason why traffic on DC-295 is so frequently bad.

Regarding further movement improvements, I would argue that in addition to the merge improvements you mention, that the interchange at I-95/I-495 gets completely rebuilt. This outdated cloverleaf is now arguably the worst interchange in the entire region and causes delays/backups on both the beltway and parkway all the time. I suspect that Maryland was hoping that similarly to what was done on I-66, a PP3 HOT lane deal on MD-295/BW Parkway would result in this interchange (along with others and the equally as bad MD-32 cloverleaf) getting completely rebuilt at no cost to the state. Regardless, something needs to be done here soon.

A lot of the issues are really endemic to DC.  They are still fighting the anti-road battles of the 1960s. 

The 695 freeway used to end at Pennsylvania Ave just before the Sousa Bridge.  To continue north, you exited on Penn, made a right turn at the signal and then made a left at the next signal (over the bridge) to get on the DC-295 north on-ramp.  There was no equivalent way of making the southbound movement, because the SB DC-295 off-ramp led only to eastbound Penn.  This was a problem that they considered fixing for years.  One approach would have been to complete the intended freeway, which would basically continue just north of the frieght RR tracks and merge in with DC-295 just south of East Capitol.  Doing that would have meant putting in the freeway connector right at the point where DC-295 widens to 3 NB lanes.  However, this was largely opposed by the anti-freeway crowd, even though there is plenty of room and no homes or businesses needed to be taken for the project.  The solution instead was to provide missing ramps at the I-295/I-695 interchange to allow for traffic to reach DC-295.  Not only does it add more mileage travelled, it also aggravated the bottleneck at the interchange.

DDOT basically supported the new interchange ramps as a way of diverting traffic away from NY Ave and Capitol Hill, but they simply did not finish the job. The widening of the southern part of DC-295 is absolutely necessary to keep regional traffic off of Independence Ave and NY Ave.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 03:32:48 PM
Why couldn't they build the I-95/I-495 bridge as a high rise bridge or a tunnel??? That way, it won't have to open at all.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 17, 2021, 04:50:02 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 03:32:48 PM
Why couldn't they build the I-95/I-495 bridge as a high rise bridge or a tunnel??? That way, it won't have to open at all.

Partly due to cost. Partly due to the visual impact of a high bridge on the historic areas. Partly due to how far out the grades would have to extend on both sides of the river to make it work so that it wouldn't be impossibly steep for trucks.

As it was, there were a bunch of lawsuits prior to what they did build.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: NJRoadfan on July 17, 2021, 05:03:45 PM
Has anyone here actually caught the new Wilson Bridge opening? Seems rare enough that it isn't a problem these days.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 05:39:36 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 17, 2021, 04:50:02 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 03:32:48 PM
Why couldn't they build the I-95/I-495 bridge as a high rise bridge or a tunnel??? That way, it won't have to open at all.

Partly due to cost. Partly due to the visual impact of a high bridge on the historic areas. Partly due to how far out the grades would have to extend on both sides of the river to make it work so that it wouldn't be impossibly steep for trucks.

As it was, there were a bunch of lawsuits prior to what they did build.
I-95 was supposed to go through DC where I-395 is right now.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on July 17, 2021, 05:54:15 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 05:39:36 PM
I-95 was supposed to go through DC where I-395 is right now.

Skipping over the fact that practically everyone on the forum knows this, what does that have to do with the Wilson Bridge being a drawbridge?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 06:05:19 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on July 17, 2021, 05:54:15 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 05:39:36 PM
I-95 was supposed to go through DC where I-395 is right now.

Skipping over the fact that practically everyone on the forum knows this, what does that have to do with the Wilson Bridge being a drawbridge?
When it was replaced in 2006 cause the old bridge was not meant to have I-95 and I-495 run together on it cause it would be overcrowded.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 17, 2021, 06:20:13 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 05:39:36 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 17, 2021, 04:50:02 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 03:32:48 PM
Why couldn't they build the I-95/I-495 bridge as a high rise bridge or a tunnel??? That way, it won't have to open at all.

Partly due to cost. Partly due to the visual impact of a high bridge on the historic areas. Partly due to how far out the grades would have to extend on both sides of the river to make it work so that it wouldn't be impossibly steep for trucks.

As it was, there were a bunch of lawsuits prior to what they did build.
I-95 was supposed to go through DC where I-395 is right now.

That you, Captain Obvious? I've lived here long enough to remember the "OLD I-95" shields on I-395 in Virginia.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on July 17, 2021, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 06:05:19 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on July 17, 2021, 05:54:15 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 05:39:36 PM
I-95 was supposed to go through DC where I-395 is right now.

Skipping over the fact that practically everyone on the forum knows this, what does that have to do with the Wilson Bridge being a drawbridge?
When it was replaced in 2006 cause the old bridge was not meant to have I-95 and I-495 run together on it cause it would be overcrowded.

I mean, the Wilson Bridge would have needed replacement & widening regardless of where I-95 wound up....look no further than the overcrowded Legion Bridge on the other side, due for replacement under MDOT P3/VDOT 495 NEXT.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 17, 2021, 07:47:37 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on July 17, 2021, 05:03:45 PM
Has anyone here actually caught the new Wilson Bridge opening? Seems rare enough that it isn't a problem these days.

I did, back in 2015. A French tall ship came to Alexandria in the late hours of the evening. I was working night shifts at that time, and it was my day off, so I figured why not go down to Old Town to see it. I was there to see the bridge as much as I did the ship.

This article summarizes the activity.

https://www.dbiservices.com/the-hermione-passes-through-woodrow-wilson-bridge/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mapmikey on July 17, 2021, 08:40:28 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on July 17, 2021, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 06:05:19 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on July 17, 2021, 05:54:15 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 17, 2021, 05:39:36 PM
I-95 was supposed to go through DC where I-395 is right now.

Skipping over the fact that practically everyone on the forum knows this, what does that have to do with the Wilson Bridge being a drawbridge?
When it was replaced in 2006 cause the old bridge was not meant to have I-95 and I-495 run together on it cause it would be overcrowded.

I mean, the Wilson Bridge would have needed replacement & widening regardless of where I-95 wound up....look no further than the overcrowded Legion Bridge on the other side, due for replacement under MDOT P3/VDOT 495 NEXT.

Even if 95 had been built through DC, it is unlikely it would've drawn that much through traffic given the substandard alignment that exists now and no trucks (which were shaking the original 1961 Wilson Bridge to death) were going to pass through DC on it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 17, 2021, 09:08:39 PM
Would trucks have been banned through the city (specifically on the section under the Mall/Capitol Hill), particularly post-9/11?

They would have been rerouted to the outer loop as a "Truck 95" detour or something like that, so pretty much how it is today.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: tolbs17 on July 18, 2021, 02:13:35 AM
And the current bridge is still against interstate highway standards.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 18, 2021, 05:38:51 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 18, 2021, 02:13:35 AM
And the current bridge is still against interstate highway standards.

I can assure you that USDOT/FHWA granted design waivers to allow the construction of a draw span there, which replaced the old span, which also had a draw span.   

By building the bridge higher (but not so high to eliminate the need for a draw bridge), the number of bridge openings was significantly reduced.  Unlike most draw spans over bodies of water considered navigable by the federal government, federal regulation allows the Wilson Bridge to be opened only at certain times.  You can read the specific regulation here (https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2001-title33-vol1/pdf/CFR-2001-title33-vol1-sec117-255.pdf) (PDF).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on July 19, 2021, 09:43:53 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 17, 2021, 09:08:39 PM
Would trucks have been banned through the city (specifically on the section under the Mall/Capitol Hill), particularly post-9/11?

They would have been rerouted to the outer loop as a "Truck 95" detour or something like that, so pretty much how it is today.

My guess is it would have been handled similar to I-465 Indy/I-270 Columbus/I-285 Atlanta, where inbound signage approaching the first beltway interchange advises thru trucks/hazmats to use the beltway route.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mapmikey on July 19, 2021, 11:09:01 AM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on July 19, 2021, 09:43:53 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 17, 2021, 09:08:39 PM
Would trucks have been banned through the city (specifically on the section under the Mall/Capitol Hill), particularly post-9/11?

They would have been rerouted to the outer loop as a "Truck 95" detour or something like that, so pretty much how it is today.

My guess is it would have been handled similar to I-465 Indy/I-270 Columbus/I-285 Atlanta, where inbound signage approaching the first beltway interchange advises thru trucks/hazmats to use the beltway route.

Hazmats are prohibited from the tunnel currently, plus the height is 13'-0", so truck traffic on the Wilson Bridge wouldn't be much different had 95 been completed through the city.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 21, 2021, 07:42:46 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on July 19, 2021, 11:09:01 AM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on July 19, 2021, 09:43:53 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 17, 2021, 09:08:39 PM
Would trucks have been banned through the city (specifically on the section under the Mall/Capitol Hill), particularly post-9/11?

They would have been rerouted to the outer loop as a "Truck 95" detour or something like that, so pretty much how it is today.

My guess is it would have been handled similar to I-465 Indy/I-270 Columbus/I-285 Atlanta, where inbound signage approaching the first beltway interchange advises thru trucks/hazmats to use the beltway route.

Hazmats are prohibited from the tunnel currently, plus the height is 13'-0", so truck traffic on the Wilson Bridge wouldn't be much different had 95 been completed through the city.

But no HAZMAT restrictions for the route I-395, I-695 and DC-295 across D.C. (but there are height restrictions on DC-295 due to low pedestrian bridges at 13' 9" (just under 4.2 meters).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mapmikey on July 21, 2021, 08:22:23 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 21, 2021, 07:42:46 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on July 19, 2021, 11:09:01 AM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on July 19, 2021, 09:43:53 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 17, 2021, 09:08:39 PM
Would trucks have been banned through the city (specifically on the section under the Mall/Capitol Hill), particularly post-9/11?

They would have been rerouted to the outer loop as a "Truck 95" detour or something like that, so pretty much how it is today.

My guess is it would have been handled similar to I-465 Indy/I-270 Columbus/I-285 Atlanta, where inbound signage approaching the first beltway interchange advises thru trucks/hazmats to use the beltway route.

Hazmats are prohibited from the tunnel currently, plus the height is 13'-0", so truck traffic on the Wilson Bridge wouldn't be much different had 95 been completed through the city.

But no HAZMAT restrictions for the route I-395, I-695 and DC-295 across D.C. (but there are height restrictions on DC-295 due to low pedestrian bridges at 13' 9" (just under 4.2 meters).

Sure, but trucks can't use 295 north of US 50, so being forced to go to Beltway there makes it just 3 miles shorter (and undoubtedly slower most of the time) than using the Beltway from Springfield to US 50.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on July 21, 2021, 06:21:08 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on July 21, 2021, 08:22:23 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 21, 2021, 07:42:46 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on July 19, 2021, 11:09:01 AM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on July 19, 2021, 09:43:53 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 17, 2021, 09:08:39 PM
Would trucks have been banned through the city (specifically on the section under the Mall/Capitol Hill), particularly post-9/11?

They would have been rerouted to the outer loop as a "Truck 95" detour or something like that, so pretty much how it is today.

My guess is it would have been handled similar to I-465 Indy/I-270 Columbus/I-285 Atlanta, where inbound signage approaching the first beltway interchange advises thru trucks/hazmats to use the beltway route.

Hazmats are prohibited from the tunnel currently, plus the height is 13'-0", so truck traffic on the Wilson Bridge wouldn't be much different had 95 been completed through the city.

But no HAZMAT restrictions for the route I-395, I-695 and DC-295 across D.C. (but there are height restrictions on DC-295 due to low pedestrian bridges at 13' 9" (just under 4.2 meters).

Sure, but trucks can't use 295 north of US 50, so being forced to go to Beltway there makes it just 3 miles shorter (and undoubtedly slower most of the time) than using the Beltway from Springfield to US 50.

Part of this discussion pre-supposes a I-95 through DC.   So I guess it depends on what specific alignment the North-Central Freeway will take.  Regardless, there doesn't appear to be a route for HAZMATs through the city.  No way to double back from 295/50 to I-95 on any sort of freeway routing that doesn't also lose significant distance.

I would think an Atlanta style truck restriction would be put in place at Beltway interchanges if I-95 through DC were built.  But since a trucker who looks at today's map can see that there is no way to go through the city without the use of some surface streets would generally automatically opt for the Beltway.  The Atlanta truck restriction only prohibits thru trucks, local trucks can still drive on 75/85, so long as they have a delivery withing the Perimeter.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 22, 2021, 01:29:38 PM
This may have come up earlier in this thread.

I was driving up the B/W Parkway yesterday, and at the site of the collapsed pedestrian bridge, there's almost no evidence of the bridge itself, except for the abutments/foundations on either side of I-295 in NE DC.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 02:46:54 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 22, 2021, 01:29:38 PM
This may have come up earlier in this thread.

I was driving up the B/W Parkway yesterday, and at the site of the collapsed pedestrian bridge, there's almost no evidence of the bridge itself, except for the abutments/foundations on either side of I-295 in NE DC.
That highway sucks, and it's too narrow. Maybe that's meant to be an expressway design and not a freeway?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 22, 2021, 06:44:14 PM
?? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Even living in Virginia, it's a very convenient way to get up to that northeast (hence my use going to Baltimore the other day).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on July 22, 2021, 06:48:40 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 22, 2021, 06:44:14 PM
?? I have no idea what you're talking about.

tolbs's posts are best categorized into the "shoot first aim second" style of commenting, so you're probably not alone.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 22, 2021, 06:44:14 PM
?? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Even living in Virginia, it's a very convenient way to get up to that northeast (hence my use going to Baltimore the other day).
I'm saying it has too few lanes, tight interchanges, and with curb/gutters which a freeway should NOT have.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Dirt Roads on July 22, 2021, 08:22:24 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 22, 2021, 01:29:38 PM
I was driving up the B/W Parkway yesterday, and at the site of the collapsed pedestrian bridge, there's almost no evidence of the bridge itself, except for the abutments/foundations on either side of I-295 in NE DC.

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 02:46:54 PM
That highway sucks, and it's too narrow. Maybe that's meant to be an expressway design and not a freeway?

Not sure why everyone is wanting to argue with tolbs17.  Just to point out what the locals there already know, the southern end of the Baltimore-Washington Parkway is part of the National Capitol Park administrative wing of the National Park Service.  That entity has grown so much that it has been split into six different administrative wings.  That means that the BW Parkway is now part of a different wing that the George Washington Parkway and the Clara Barton Parkway.  Anyhow, these function more like Skyline Drive without the trails and campgrounds.  They just happen to be in an urban area where everyone is looking for a shortcut around traffic.  In comparison, the Rock Creek and Potomac Parkway is only two lanes.

When I lived there, sometimes I used all of these parkways to just have an quiet serene drive out of the Capitol area (and yes, and I spelled it that way on purpose).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on July 22, 2021, 10:22:34 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on July 22, 2021, 08:22:24 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 22, 2021, 01:29:38 PM
I was driving up the B/W Parkway yesterday, and at the site of the collapsed pedestrian bridge, there's almost no evidence of the bridge itself, except for the abutments/foundations on either side of I-295 in NE DC.

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 02:46:54 PM
That highway sucks, and it's too narrow. Maybe that's meant to be an expressway design and not a freeway?

Not sure why everyone is wanting to argue with tolbs17.  Just to point out what the locals there already know, the southern end of the Baltimore-Washington Parkway is part of the National Capitol Park administrative wing of the National Park Service.  That entity has grown so much that it has been split into six different administrative wings.  That means that the BW Parkway is now part of a different wing that the George Washington Parkway and the Clara Barton Parkway.  Anyhow, these function more like Skyline Drive without the trails and campgrounds.  They just happen to be in an urban area where everyone is looking for a shortcut around traffic.  In comparison, the Rock Creek and Potomac Parkway is only two lanes.

When I lived there, sometimes I used all of these parkways to just have an quiet serene drive out of the Capitol area (and yes, and I spelled it that way on purpose).
tolbs tends to post non-sequitors that are only tangentially related to whatever he replied to (often the relation isn't obvious even after thinking about it), and people have gotten tired of him posting a bunch of signs in NC that to us, at best, have only very, very, VERY minor errors over in the Traffic Control forum.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on July 22, 2021, 11:16:18 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 22, 2021, 06:44:14 PM
?? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Even living in Virginia, it's a very convenient way to get up to that northeast (hence my use going to Baltimore the other day).
I'm saying it has too few lanes, tight interchanges, and with curb/gutters which a freeway should NOT have.
Agreed 100%. I frequently find myself on I-95 between the beltways because any little anything ties up the B-W.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:21:18 PM
Quote from: Alps on July 22, 2021, 11:16:18 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 22, 2021, 06:44:14 PM
?? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Even living in Virginia, it's a very convenient way to get up to that northeast (hence my use going to Baltimore the other day).
I'm saying it has too few lanes, tight interchanges, and with curb/gutters which a freeway should NOT have.
Agreed 100%. I frequently find myself on I-95 between the beltways because any little anything ties up the B-W.
Then they have this (https://wrallp.com/our-work/md-295-third-lane-widening) document which says they will widen it to 6 lanes from I-195 to I-695.

Also, what the hell are these wooden (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9916316,-76.8859086,3a,75y,29.88h,109.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s28mIxfux0hGFjb9mWA_pDQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) bridges they have under this overpass? They have been like that for a few years now.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on July 22, 2021, 11:44:08 PM
^ That wooden subdeck is a non-issue compared to the rather noticeable pier spalling and I-beam corrosion on the same bridge. (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9916316,-76.8859086,3a,25.6y,202.24h,99.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s28mIxfux0hGFjb9mWA_pDQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:53:43 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 22, 2021, 11:44:08 PM
^ That wooden subdeck is a non-issue compared to the rather noticeable pier spalling and I-beam corrosion on the same bridge.
(https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9916316,-76.8859086,3a,25.6y,202.24h,99.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s28mIxfux0hGFjb9mWA_pDQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
And for some reason, I cannot find any link that would reconstruct the existing interchange to something nicer.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on July 23, 2021, 12:52:05 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:21:18 PM
Quote from: Alps on July 22, 2021, 11:16:18 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 22, 2021, 06:44:14 PM
?? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Even living in Virginia, it's a very convenient way to get up to that northeast (hence my use going to Baltimore the other day).
I'm saying it has too few lanes, tight interchanges, and with curb/gutters which a freeway should NOT have.
Agreed 100%. I frequently find myself on I-95 between the beltways because any little anything ties up the B-W.
Then they have this (https://wrallp.com/our-work/md-295-third-lane-widening) document which says they will widen it to 6 lanes from I-195 to I-695.

Also, what the hell are these wooden (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9916316,-76.8859086,3a,75y,29.88h,109.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s28mIxfux0hGFjb9mWA_pDQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) bridges they have under this overpass? They have been like that for a few years now.
Those are up there to catch debris, probably rust falling off the steel beams :|
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 23, 2021, 07:31:09 AM
Quote from: Alps on July 23, 2021, 12:52:05 AM
Those are up there to catch debris, probably rust falling off the steel beams :|

At least in theory, the presence of those means that the bridge is on the list for a deck replacement or in some cases, a rehabilitation.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on July 23, 2021, 07:36:58 AM
It appears to me there's some confusion in this thread because there is a reference to the BW Parkway (which doesn't enter DC), the collapsed pedestrian bridge (which was in DC and which the Mayor said will be rebuilt at a higher clearance), and I-295 (which didn't pass under the pedestrian bridge in question). Then tolbs17, who is not known for attention to detail, jumped in and further confused things.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on July 23, 2021, 08:58:08 AM
Quote from: Alps on July 22, 2021, 11:16:18 PM
Agreed 100%. I frequently find myself on I-95 between the beltways because any little anything ties up the B-W.

Agreed 200%.  Even when 295 is incident-free and moving, the amount of times you get stuck behind 2 vehicles going the same speed side-by-side....having 4 lanes each way on 95 makes this occurrence much less frequent (although I've occasionally seen it happen there as well).

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:21:18 PM
Then they have this (https://wrallp.com/our-work/md-295-third-lane-widening) document which says they will widen it to 6 lanes from I-195 to I-695.

Uhhh, that project's been completed for almost 10 years now. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2109489,-76.6822875,3a,75y,242.06h,85.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svsrz0j-tD04OLzUvW4ticw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en)

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 23, 2021, 07:31:09 AM
Quote from: Alps on July 23, 2021, 12:52:05 AM
Those are up there to catch debris, probably rust falling off the steel beams :|

At least in theory, the presence of those means that the bridge is on the list for a deck replacement or in some cases, a rehabilitation.

A lot of the underpasses & overpasses along the Beltway in that area are in similar condition - as one example, the bridge decks passing over the WMATA/CSX tracks are getting pretty beat-up. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.015189,-76.9089916,3a,75y,132.78h,79.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbU5wDapSTaXq9uca2oqskA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 23, 2021, 07:36:58 AM
It appears to me there's some confusion in this thread because there is a reference to the BW Parkway (which doesn't enter DC), the collapsed pedestrian bridge (which was in DC and which the Mayor said will be rebuilt at a higher clearance), and I-295 (which didn't pass under the pedestrian bridge in question). Then tolbs17, who is not known for attention to detail, jumped in and further confused things.

Glad I'm not the only one struggling to follow how discussion of the now-removed pedestrian overpass on DC 295 led to complaints of the B-W Parkway not being freeway-standard (which, being a parkway designed & constructed by NPS before modern freeway standards were developed, makes perfect sense to me anyway).  :spin:
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on July 23, 2021, 03:56:45 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 23, 2021, 07:36:58 AM
Then tolbs17, who is not known for attention to detail, jumped in and further confused things.
Which is ironic, given that his signage complaints in the Traffic Control board tend to be things that are so nit-picky that even the most anal of us here think they're no big deal.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 04:22:45 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 23, 2021, 03:56:45 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 23, 2021, 07:36:58 AM
Then tolbs17, who is not known for attention to detail, jumped in and further confused things.
Which is ironic, given that his signage complaints in the Traffic Control board tend to be things that are so nit-picky that even the most anal of us here think they're no big deal.
like changing the topic?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on July 26, 2021, 04:33:48 PM
As the subject of DC-295 is still part of the discussion here, I recently read an article on ggwash about some of the history of the corridor.

As a warning, a lot of ggwash stuff is very pro-transit, pro-bike, and anti-car.

The first article in the series definitely reads a bit like an anti-freeway screed:

How DC Route 295 isolates neighborhoods in Northeast DC from the rest of the city  (https://ggwash.org/view/81903/both-route-295-and-railroads-divide-neighborhoods-in-northeast-dc)


The second article, though, is defintely worth reading and has a lot of interesting history and map links:

Here's how neighborhoods west of Kenilworth Avenue in Northeast DC became isolated from the city  (https://ggwash.org/view/81917/how-neighborhoods-west-of-kenilworth-avenue-in-northeast-dc-became-isolated-from-the-city)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 26, 2021, 05:43:58 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 26, 2021, 04:33:48 PM
As the subject of DC-295 is still part of the discussion here, I recently read an article on ggwash about some of the history of the corridor.

As a warning, a lot of ggwash stuff is very pro-transit, pro-bike, and anti-car.

The first article in the series definitely reads a bit like an anti-freeway screed:

How DC Route 295 isolates neighborhoods in Northeast DC from the rest of the city  (https://ggwash.org/view/81903/both-route-295-and-railroads-divide-neighborhoods-in-northeast-dc)

As to be expected, much emphasis on air quality impact of the traffic - but no mention of the air quality impact of greatly improved vehicle emission controls and reformulated fuels.  Nor any mention of the air quality impact of the decommissioning of the Benning Road coal-fired generating station, which was torn down several years ago.

Quote from: mrsman on July 26, 2021, 04:33:48 PM
The second article, though, is defintely worth reading and has a lot of interesting history and map links:

Here's how neighborhoods west of Kenilworth Avenue in Northeast DC became isolated from the city  (https://ggwash.org/view/81917/how-neighborhoods-west-of-kenilworth-avenue-in-northeast-dc-became-isolated-from-the-city)

This one is indeed better.

One thing that the author seems to not be aware of - streetcar service in the Benning Road corridor (I think those were Routes 10 and 12) were decommissioned and replaced with bus service for one simple reason - the streetcars could not serve the demand and buses could

One big reason why was the "plow pit" on H Street, N.E, where inbound streetcars stopped to have the trolley pole lowered and the "plow" attached to rear truck of the car (power was DC, with the power rail in the conduit having a positive and negative pole (one side of the plow was for positive and one side was negative)). 

There was a dedicated employee at each plow pit at all times when trolley service was running  This job required going under the car to the pit to attach (inbound) or remove (outbound) the plow and then lowering the pole (inbound) or raising it (outbound). This was a miserable job, exposed to the elements and sometimes dangerous involving exposure to live traffic and enough electric power to be lethal.

Outbound cars had the plow removed and the pole raised. 

The conduit system existed because Congress had forbidden overhead wires in the monumental core of D.C., including trolley wires.

The National Capital Trolley Museum on Bonifant Road in Silver Spring (overlooking MD-200) has at least one example of a plow in their collection open to the public - these things were heavy beasts.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alex on July 28, 2021, 10:11:10 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 07, 2021, 08:08:18 AM
WTOP reports that the FHWA approved the Interstate renumbering for I-395 and I-695 (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/07/exclusive-feds-sign-off-on-biggest-dc-interstate-renumbering-in-decades/). There's a bit of editorializing about I-695 late in the article.

There's a good bit of information in the AASHTO Route Numbering Archive on I-395. I tried to summarize it on https://www.interstate-guide.com/i-395-washington/

So with I-395 being realigned to connect with I-295 via I-695, it can no longer be considered a spur. I mention this because when I-95 was to be relocated onto the Capital Beltway, the FHWA in 1975 suggested Interstate 895 as the renumbering for the route into D.C. as I-395 was "not compatible with existing route numbering policies." (this was based upon the plans to connect it with I-295 at the north end, resulting in an even numbered 3-digit route)

AASHTO corresponded with VDOT and DDOT, and DDOT supported I-395 as the "present terminus is with the city's arterial street system," also adding among other reasons that they guessed that extension of I-395 will not terminate at another I-95 segment.

The Virginia Governor previously had reservations of numbering it I-395. There's a letter in the Route Numbering Archive explaining how Virginia considered the route to be a loop, and not a spur. But those were eventually withdrawn and I-395 was approved by the FHWA in 1976.

The Route Numbering Archive also revealed why the 1984 proposal to change the Center Leg Freeway to Interstate 195 never went through.
The renumbering was subject to the completion of the final alignments. The north end of the Center Leg Freeway was in 1987, but the segment of the Southeast Freeway from 12th Street to the Anacostia Freeway never was.
I created a page for the I-195 in D.C. at https://www.interstate-guide.com/i-195-dc/

Edited, because I fixed the typos on the I-395 page
- Alex
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on July 29, 2021, 11:33:09 AM
Quote from: Alex on July 28, 2021, 10:11:10 PM
So with I-395 being realigned to connect with I-295 via I-695, it can no longer be considered a spur. I mention this because when I-95 was to be relocated onto the Capital Beltway, the FHWA in 1975 suggested Interstate 895 as the renumbering for the route into D.C. as I-395 was "not compatible with existing route numbering policies." (this was based upon the plans to connect it with I-295 at the north end, resulting in an even numbered 3-digit route)

Makes me wonder why they don't just change the whole thing to I-695. It can't be I-895 anymore because of VA 895 (although I have my doubts that VA 895 will ever become I-895 in any of our lifetimes).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 29, 2021, 02:32:57 PM
There is no Interstate 695 in Virginia, so extending 695 over 395 all the way to the Springfield Interchange would work. That way the Center Leg Freeway could remain 395.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: amroad17 on August 02, 2021, 02:25:47 AM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on July 29, 2021, 11:33:09 AM
Quote from: Alex on July 28, 2021, 10:11:10 PM
So with I-395 being realigned to connect with I-295 via I-695, it can no longer be considered a spur. I mention this because when I-95 was to be relocated onto the Capital Beltway, the FHWA in 1975 suggested Interstate 895 as the renumbering for the route into D.C. as I-395 was "not compatible with existing route numbering policies." (this was based upon the plans to connect it with I-295 at the north end, resulting in an even numbered 3-digit route)

Makes me wonder why they don't just change the whole thing to I-695. It can't be I-895 anymore because of VA 895 (although I have my doubts that VA 895 will ever become I-895 in any of our lifetimes).
Less signs to change.  In fact, some of the current I-395 signs on the Center Leg Freeway could replace the I-695 signs.

More than likely it is being done this way to save some of the changeover costs and to keep the familiarity of I-395 routed from the Springfield Interchange into Washington.  Two short sections are going to be renumbered instead of a larger 11 mile stretch of freeway.

Besides, it really does not matter much now that some odd numbered Interstate highways act more like loops instead of spurs, or connect to an Interstate highway at both termini.  The "rules" are being relaxed a bit.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: plain on August 02, 2021, 02:22:00 PM
I'm about to go full fantasy here.

Have I-85 multiplex with I-95 to Springfield then have it take over I-395 to terminate at US 50. Renumber I-695 as an I-x85. Bam!  :bigass:


Seriously though, I don't understand why they think the renumbering is so important. I think they're fine just the way they are.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on August 02, 2021, 06:03:42 PM
That would require a co-currency of about 117 miles to replace a roadway designation (Interstate 395) whose existing length is about 13 miles long. That's not fantasy, that's insanity. No Thanks!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on August 03, 2021, 08:02:01 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on August 02, 2021, 02:25:47 AM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on July 29, 2021, 11:33:09 AM
Quote from: Alex on July 28, 2021, 10:11:10 PM
So with I-395 being realigned to connect with I-295 via I-695, it can no longer be considered a spur. I mention this because when I-95 was to be relocated onto the Capital Beltway, the FHWA in 1975 suggested Interstate 895 as the renumbering for the route into D.C. as I-395 was "not compatible with existing route numbering policies." (this was based upon the plans to connect it with I-295 at the north end, resulting in an even numbered 3-digit route)

Makes me wonder why they don't just change the whole thing to I-695. It can't be I-895 anymore because of VA 895 (although I have my doubts that VA 895 will ever become I-895 in any of our lifetimes).
Less signs to change.  In fact, some of the current I-395 signs on the Center Leg Freeway could replace the I-695 signs.

More than likely it is being done this way to save some of the changeover costs and to keep the familiarity of I-395 routed from the Springfield Interchange into Washington.  Two short sections are going to be renumbered instead of a larger 11 mile stretch of freeway.

Besides, it really does not matter much now that some odd numbered Interstate highways act more like loops instead of spurs, or connect to an Interstate highway at both termini.  The "rules" are being relaxed a bit.

Agreed.  I-395 is familiar and should be retained as the majority route from Springfield thru Pentagon to the Downtown DC area.  The specific terminus can be changed and it is good that they are making the thru route toward  I-295 and DC-295 retain the 395 number, since that is where the majority of northbound traffic, that is already on 395 , should go.

Another thing: Given that the "thru" route from Springfield to College Park involves I-395, DC-295, and BW Parkway it is better to keep this as an odd interstate.  Yes, the 395/295 interchanges connects two interstates, but the main force of 395 traffic will be heading north and will no longer be heading on interstate highways to reach College Park.  In that way, an odd interstate is better to denote that it is not a connecting route between interstates, in the typical manner of even 3dis.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on August 03, 2021, 10:42:54 AM
Quote from: mrsmanYes, the 395/295 interchanges connects two interstates, but the main force of 395 traffic will be heading north

Actually, the main force of traffic to/from the 11th St Bridge goes south on the Interstate part of 295, which is in no small part why the 295/395 interchange is designed the way it is.

395 makes sense because the vast bulk of traffic on the SE/SW Freeway is coming to/from Virginia and the 14th St Bridge, where it was already 395.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on August 03, 2021, 12:26:09 PM
During the morning rush, I always found that I-395 got considerably lighter after L'Enfant Plaza (7th St) and then even more so after the Center Leg Freeway.

Going on the section along the Navy Yard and towards the 11st Street bridge, and onto 295 north, never really seems congested.

Makes sense, as L'Enfant and the Hill are two big commuting destinations.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: noelbotevera on August 03, 2021, 10:40:09 PM
Visited Arlington last week, and noticed this funny little 1950s bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8888403,-77.0635326,3a,75y,290.35h,76.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBilIvJrPwKseocMRfOECXg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) on Arlington Boulevard WB just inside the DC line (aka part of the Memorial Circle interchange on Columbia Island). The most recent aerial showing this bridge fully used is from 1964 (the EB lanes removed sometime before the next aerial in 1979). The aerial is blurry, but my takeaway is that the GW Parkway ended here (or was realigned with the EB lanes staying in Virginia?) and most traffic from Arlington Boulevard was guided onto the Parkway. Even though this bypassed the circle, the Parkway was rebuilt or extended north of the circle and this area was reconstructed sometime in the '70s, possibly with the completion of I-66 in Virginia.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 04, 2021, 01:14:25 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on August 03, 2021, 10:40:09 PM
Visited Arlington last week, and noticed this funny little 1950s bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8888403,-77.0635326,3a,75y,290.35h,76.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBilIvJrPwKseocMRfOECXg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) on Arlington Boulevard WB just inside the DC line (aka part of the Memorial Circle interchange on Columbia Island). The most recent aerial showing this bridge fully used is from 1964 (the EB lanes removed sometime before the next aerial in 1979). The aerial is blurry, but my takeaway is that the GW Parkway ended here (or was realigned with the EB lanes staying in Virginia?) and most traffic from Arlington Boulevard was guided onto the Parkway. Even though this bypassed the circle, the Parkway was rebuilt or extended north of the circle and this area was reconstructed sometime in the '70s, possibly with the completion of I-66 in Virginia.

I think that pre-dates construction of the T. Roosevelt Bridge (I-66 and U.S. 50) which was built long before I-66 between I-495 and Rosslyn was completed in the early 1980's.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 04, 2021, 01:47:44 PM
The bridge noelbotevera is referring to carried two-way traffic prior to that area's reconfiguration after the Roosevelt Bridge opened. If you don't zoom the 1964 Historic Aerials image in, you can see how US-50 went eastbound across that bridge and then curved to the south, joining what is now the ramp that carries traffic from Memorial Bridge towards I-395 and the southbound GW Parkway. The road passed under Memorial Avenue (the road connecting the circle to the cemetery) and then curved around to the left via a ramp that no longer exists to access the circle and the bridge. Traffic coming south on the GW Parkway used a loop ramp adjacent to the bridge noelbotevera mentions in order to connect to that bridge and then continue southbound.

Once the Roosevelt Bridge opened and US-50 traffic shifted to that route, the area was reconfigured. The loop ramp was eliminated, as was two-way traffic on the bridge in question. Instead, eastbound traffic was funnelled to the realigned GW Parkway via a new ramp (the stub of which is visible in the 1964 Historic Aerials image), and then another new ramp that uses a sort of U-turn layout (except it's on the right) was constructed to connect the GW Parkway to Memorial Avenue. Traffic heading from the Parkway to either the bridge or the cemetery still uses that ramp, goes through the annoying stop sign at its end, and turns right (for the bridge) or left (for the cemetery). You could also use the latter option to connect to Route 110 if you wanted to go from the GW Parkway to Crystal City, although there are better ways to make that movement that avoid the stop sign and the 15-mph zone with heavy pedestrian traffic on Memorial Avenue. As noelbotevera notes, the southbound GW Parkway was realigned through Virginia and now crosses Boundary Channel south of the area in question.

Both of the U-shaped ramps on Columbia Island are now gone. The northern one closed sometime within the past year as part of various reconfiguration efforts intended to reduce the number of crashes and improve pedestrian safety (the latter a well-intentioned effort that likely won't work as well as they hope).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mapmikey on August 04, 2021, 03:36:39 PM
The 1949 and 1951 aerials show very well what went on prior to 1964.

The bridge in question was built about 1950 and there was a narrower bridge there prior (unless that was a Bailey Bridge).

Arlington Blvd EB was seamless to GW Pkwy SB starting about 1940.  GW Pkwy NB could go onto Arlington Blvd or continue up more Pkwy which used to curl around to the Key Circle in Rosslyn.  In 1950 you could also then continue around onto Spout Run Pkwy and the ability to go to Key Circle remained until at least the mid-1960s

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: noelbotevera on August 06, 2021, 11:49:52 AM
Having looked at the area more, what I find interesting is that the reconfiguration eliminated Arlington Boulevard EB access to the Memorial Bridge (via the southern U-turn ramp). This might be a stupid question, but what's wrong with allowing that traffic to filter between the Roosevelt and Memorial Bridges?

I might even be answering my own question, but either the Roosevelt Bridge can handle all the traffic (3 lanes EB vs 2, but also has to handle I-66 traffic) or more traffic at  Memorial Circle would create a bigger mess.

Also interesting that the GW Parkway SB was built after NB - usually you don't build carriageways separately.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 06, 2021, 04:50:28 PM
Washington Post: D.C. parking, traffic tickets snowball into financial hardships (https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2021/08/06/dc-traffic-parking-tickets-black-neighborhoods/)

QuoteGarry Scott, 68, vaguely remembers the first ticket he got after moving to D.C. It was almost a decade ago. It was likely an infraction for not having a residential parking permit, he says.

QuoteHe figured he would pay it later.

QuoteBut a few days later, another ticket appeared. Then another. Then a few more got stuck to his windshield.

Quote"At one point I had six tickets on my window,"  he said.

QuoteThe fines doubled when Scott, who has a limited income, failed to pay the tickets on time. The growing unpaid fees spiraled Scott into bankruptcy, unemployment and eventually homelessness. Today, Scott owes the city more than $5,000 – all for unpaid driving or parking tickets.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 09, 2021, 10:53:19 AM
[Op-Ed] Anacostia's missing traffic control (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/06/anacostias-missing-traffic-control/)

QuoteThis month I will have an anniversary that is no cause for celebration. Three years ago, I was hit by a car while crossing Martin Luther King Jr. Avenue SE, in the crosswalk, with the walk light. A woman who thought answering her phone was more important than paying attention slammed into me, tossing me like a rag doll. I guess it's good she was turning; if she had been going any faster, I would not be writing this letter.

QuoteAfterward, I wrote a Local Opinions essay that resulted in a small flurry of concern on D.C.'s part. Then-D.C. Department of Transportation head Jeff Marootian called me very solicitously, came to a Washington Area Bicyclists Association meeting at the Anacostia Playhouse (my home base) and seemed genuinely interested in working on the many, many issues centered on traffic control in Anacostia. I stated that I did not believe anything would really change unless there was some accountability for breaking the law (what a concept!) as well as real changes and upgrades to the infrastructure.



Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on August 09, 2021, 04:29:08 PM
So painting more zebra crossings will prevent right-hook crashes?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on August 10, 2021, 12:20:03 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 09, 2021, 04:29:08 PM
So painting more zebra crossings will prevent right-hook crashes?
The more visible crosswalks are, the better compliance is.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ran4sh on August 10, 2021, 12:30:30 AM
At least until all marked crosswalks are in the zebra format (e.g. Georgia)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on August 10, 2021, 03:18:16 PM
Quote from: Alps on August 10, 2021, 12:20:03 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 09, 2021, 04:29:08 PM
So painting more zebra crossings will prevent right-hook crashes?
The more visible crosswalks are, the better compliance is.

Not gonna disagree, but I don't think replacing transverse markings with zebra automatically improves yielding. I think it does at mid-block and yield crossings, but I haven't seen any studies that prove whether there is better compliance at signalized crossings.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 17, 2021, 03:40:08 PM
https://twitter.com/AdamTuss/status/1427707563731206154
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 20, 2021, 01:59:46 PM
WRC-TV (Channel 4, Washington, D.C.): National Park Service Considers Whether to Keep Section of Beach Drive Closed to Traffic (https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/national-park-service-considers-whether-to-keep-section-of-beach-drive-closed-to-traffic/2778393/)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mapmikey on August 23, 2021, 09:17:28 AM
3rd Street Tunnel closed until further notice -

flooding into the tunnel caused the roadway to buckle slightly per WTOP (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2021/08/sinkhole-shuts-down-3rd-street-tunnel-and-nearby-streets/)

No timeline for repair estimated yet...
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 24, 2021, 07:59:22 AM
Interesting to have an electronic sign after the tunnel exit warning that the tunnel is closed. Maybe it's for people who get on autopilot and miss all the earlier signs.

https://twitter.com/WTOPtraffic/status/1430128225812942848
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on September 08, 2021, 02:56:02 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/09/06/frederick-douglass-bridge-opening-washington/

QuoteNew $480 million Frederick Douglass Memorial Bridge begins opening week with a Labor Day celebration

QuoteCommuters idled in traffic jams, planners spent countless hours on studies and politicians debated for more than a decade as road crews patched and paved a crumbling Frederick Douglass Memorial Bridge.

Now, a replacement span is about to open this week.

The city is transitioning from the 71-year-old bridge in Southeast Washington to a freshly built, 1,445-foot-long structure with a community party – opening to pedestrians and bikes for a one-day preview Monday – before welcoming cars for good by the end of the week. The replacement is the city's largest infrastructure project in history, valued at $480 million, and it is viewed as a critical step toward the transformation of the shores of the Anacostia River.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on October 27, 2021, 08:45:37 AM
Traffic-circle turmoil and roadwork revulsion: Another satirical guide to navigating DC's traffic

https://wtop.com/local/2021/10/traffic-circle-turmoil-and-road-work-revulsion-another-satirical-guide-to-navigating-dcs-traffic/

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: kernals12 on November 10, 2021, 07:40:30 PM
I clinched the Beltway!

And good lord was the traffic awful
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadwaywiz95 on December 29, 2021, 10:03:59 AM
New content alert from the "roadwaywiz" YouTube channel:

For this weekend's *live* content, we're kicking off the year 2022 with a special "Doubleheader Day" of *live* programming across the afternoon and evening. It's our way of thanking all of our viewers and supporters while being able to celebrate the beginning of a new year together. It's our first time attempting to broadcast two of these episodes on the same day and it should be a lot of fun for all involved!

The first *live* presentation of the day will begin at 12:00 PM ET and will feature a "doubleheader" Virtual Tour episode, featuring the beltway freeways encircling Washington, DC and Baltimore, MD:



The nightcap *live* presentation will begin at 6:00 PM ET and will feature this Webinar devoted to the interstates and other freeways & bridges of the Baltimore, MD metro area:



All in all, my team and I are really excited to bring this doubleheader day of events to you folks and we look forward to celebrating the New Year with some/all of you and seeing everyone in attendance!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 29, 2021, 01:59:04 PM
Is Interstate 195 and the Interstate 395 reroute signposted yet? If not, when might it happen? Sorry if I sound impatient, but if it's going to happen, it should happen sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 29, 2021, 02:01:14 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 29, 2021, 01:59:04 PM
Is Interstate 195 and the Interstate 395 reroute signposted yet? If not, when might it happen? Sorry if I sound impatient, but if it's going to happen, it should happen sooner rather than later.

Not as of December 15 when I drove home from Union Station. Don't know when they plan to do it.

I did notice, from glancing up and to the right, that the ancient signs on the ramp to the 12th Street Tunnel are still up, though I suspect their days are numbered.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 29, 2021, 02:25:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 29, 2021, 02:01:14 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 29, 2021, 01:59:04 PM
Is Interstate 195 and the Interstate 395 reroute signposted yet? If not, when might it happen? Sorry if I sound impatient, but if it's going to happen, it should happen sooner rather than later.

Not as of December 15 when I drove home from Union Station. Don't know when they plan to do it.

I did notice, from glancing up and to the right, that the ancient signs on the ramp to the 12th Street Tunnel are still up, though I suspect their days are numbered.

I clinched I-395 and I-695 Sunday and nothing had changed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: epzik8 on January 09, 2022, 09:31:44 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on November 10, 2021, 07:40:30 PM
I clinched the Beltway!

And good lord was the traffic awful
Among the worst traffic in the country.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mariethefoxy on May 21, 2022, 12:52:54 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 29, 2021, 01:59:04 PM
Is Interstate 195 and the Interstate 395 reroute signposted yet? If not, when might it happen? Sorry if I sound impatient, but if it's going to happen, it should happen sooner rather than later.

As of May 2022 when I drove on 695 and 395 South thru DC, 695 signage is still up southbound on DC295 south, the signage on 695 south itself is kinda sparse, most of it still being signed as To 395
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on May 25, 2022, 10:37:12 PM
Quote from: mrsman on December 01, 2020, 09:35:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 01, 2020, 03:45:51 PM
^^^
That's a very good explanation. I think they'd be wise to listen to your concerns.

As it exists right now, there's basically only one through lane along Colesville. The current design, to maintain two through lanes onto southbound 16th, requires traffic to change lanes shortly before the circle (kind of a 'dance' if you will). I don't know what the situation is right now, but I suspect the left lane isn't getting much use, and the right lane, given that it's parking until shortly before the circle, isn't getting much use either. And then shortly before the circle, you have the middle lane vehicles either changing to the right to allow left lane traffic to change into the middle lane, or they don't change lanes at all and basically force everyone into a single lane, and/or left lane traffic simply ignores the left turn lane in the circle and continues straight onto 16th regardless.


This basically sums it up.  I have been going through here regularly as my son is in a small private one room class situation due to COVID and the school is using space just off 16th in the northern part of DC (less than a mile from this circle).  My concern is more with safety than with congestion.  I am happy to follow the lane lines, but there are so many others that do not.

I live to the northeast of here, so I could come in via either 16th or Colesville to approach the circle.  Neither approach is very good.  Since I make a right turn onto a side street from 16th in DC, I aim to end up in the right lane of 16th after passing through the circle.  When I approach from Colesville, I ride in the middle lane, then shift into the parking lane before the circle, so that I can follow the far right lane through the circle.  I am following the rules, but so many others in the lane to the left of me just glide into my lane and honk at me as though I am causing the problem.  It is true that prior to this configuration, the right lane forced a turn onto N Portal and the middle lane of the circle led to the right lane of 16th, but the lines no longer indicate that.  However many drivers are still doing that and evasive action on my part is preventing fender benders in this area.

Quote

As for the approach from southbound 16th, that's an interesting call ending the right lane at East West Highway. Why not simply have that lane merge left about 300 feet after the intersection, and then have the left two lanes shift to the right to allow for a left turn pocket? Both scenarios would maintain two through lanes, as may be desired, but I think the merge option is more desirable than a forced turn. DC drivers seem pretty aggressive when it comes to merging (in a good way), so I think that would be better as a forced turn might make the #3 lane along southbound 16th north of East West Highway totally unused (I don't know how much traffic currently makes a right onto East West Highway, but the current setup seems pretty good and I'd hate to mess with it).

I find your approach acceptable.  If the right lane forces a merge into the middle lane, the markings would be clear that the traffic in the right lane would have to yield to traffic in the middle lane.  Since the right lane is far less traveled this could be OK.  And if drivers know in advance that the right lane will end, it will be even less traveled still.  As it is, there are relatively few who use the right lane, probably because the right lane used to force a turn onto North Portal. 

North Portal can get a decent amount of traffic, but 16th is far heavier.  North Portal leads to Beach Drive which allows for a drive into Downtown DC with few traffic signals or stop signs.  But certain portions of Beach Drive have been closed for repairs for a number of years, so not many have gone this way for a while.  Plus, parts of it are closed for walking/biking due to COVID (and have been closed every weekend for many years as well).  This is a long way of saying that while there is a reason in the past to push 1 of 3 lanes onto North Portal, that no longer really exists now and it's basically a quiet residential street for the time being.

A nearby situation where a busy right lane forces a merge after the busy intersection is at Georgia Ave NB at Forest Glen.  The curb lane is very busy because of the cloverleaf ramps from the Beltway, but the curb lane ends just after the next intersection.  People do merge into the adjacent lane when they can (as they come off the ramps, before or after the Forest Glen intersection), but it is still less traveled than other lanes because of the forced merge.  Folks do use the lane, but a lot do turn on Forest Glen as well.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0157256,-77.0426339,3a,75y,330.36h,71.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7Ja6BLU5g9VT-eesH7pFyg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192



What is unacceptable is the current situation that basically without warning forces the left lane to turn onto Eastern.  The left and middle lane are the busier two lanes and they need to default directly onto 16th south of the circle.

It is hard to gage what true traffic counts are now because of COVID.  This change to the traffic pattern only occurred a few weeks ago.  I can definitely see implementing your suggestion so that if squeezing down to 2 lanes causes a backup, it at least won't also congest the intersection with E-W Highway (which will remain at 3 lanes southbound).  I can say that pre-COVID this stretch of SB 16th between E-W Highway and the circle was pretty congested, but I think a lot of that had to do with the left lane being blocked by those who turned on Eastern, especially the buses.  I think if two consistent unimpeded southbound lanes were continuous through the whole stretch, a third lane would simply be unnecessary. 

Further north, the third southbound lane is just simply unnecessary.  This stretch encourages speeding and there are a lot of speeding cameras present (at least two in each direction) between Georgia and East-West Highway.

A follow up to the issues that I brought up (and other commented on) in Replies 1006-1013 of this thread back in November 2020.  The above quoted selection should paint most of the picture, but basically these were regarding my complaint to some of the lane assignments that MD SHA had painted when they redid the approach on 16th street to the traffic circle at the DC/MD line.  In October/November 2020, they finally installed traffic signals on the MD side to help coordinate the traffic on the MD side of the circle (from N 16th and Colesville), but the approach was confusing because of the change in lane assignments.  Before the signals were installed, the right lane forced a turn onto North Portal and the left two lanes continued on 16th toward DC.  The change implemented by MD SHA in 2020 had the left lane force a left turn onto Eastern with the right two lanes continuing on 16th toward DC.

I had written to MD SHA to explain my concerns (detailed in the correspondence at 1011).  At the time, it seemed like my words fell on deaf ears.

I recently returned to working at my office in Downtown DC twice a week, and I had the occasion of taking the bus along 16th street instead of the Metro one day,  I was able to notice some changes at the circle that were similar to some of my recommendations.  Fortunately, they are covered in the most recent GSV, so the changes made were likely between August and November 2021.

From my letter to MD SHA:

Quote

A similar change needs to take place along the 16th street [MD-390] approach FROM MARYLAND into the circle.  This is a little more difficult as there are three southbound traffic lanes south of East-West Highway along 16th instead of two.*  The two left lanes of southbound 16th approaching East-West Highway are far busier than the right lane, so it would make sense to force the right lane to turn right on East-West Highway so that only two lanes continue south of East-West Highway to approach the circle.  The two lanes of traffic should gradually shift to the right to allow for the painting of a left turn pocket that defaults onto the left lane of the circle for the left turns onto Eastern.  In this manner, the two left lanes of 16th in Maryland will default directly onto 16th street in DC.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

* There are three southbound lanes of 16th street in Maryland beginning south of Grace Church Rd, but there really is no point to this.  South of Seminary Rd, the two right lanes of Georgia Ave [MD-97] allow for a right turn onto 16th street [MD-390].  There, the road is two lanes southbound and traffic moves well at all times of day.  Where southbound traffic widens to three lanes,  at Grace Church Rd, there is very little traffic and this encourages significant speeding.  Three lanes of traffic is simply not necessary here.  The right lane could be repurposed for parking, a shoulder, a bus lane, or a bike lane and traffic would not be affected.  If the entire stretch of southbound 16th street in Maryland were limited to two thru lanes of southbound traffic, it would be even easier to design the approach to the circle to have two thru lanes, as I discussed above.


Here are some pictures of the southbound approach on 16th beginning at Spring Street.

Warning that the right lane will force a right turn.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9961595,-77.0364834,3a,75y,182.61h,60.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIh7WN_Z0bcVny1Oio7owQw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The right lane is forced into the channel.  Only two lanes continue south of East-West Highway.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9952284,-77.0364373,3a,75y,182.61h,60.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFygl6NF2f8jV-tDnqKh8Yg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The curb lane south of East-West is blocked with hatch marks.  It's to be used as a bus stop and full-time parking.  No more driving in this lane. (Unfortunately some of the best views are blocked by the bus.)

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9942273,-77.0363294,3a,75y,211.92h,66.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPi4qzUs2NsthXiKn1KL7Rw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

And of course, the piece de resistance, the tapering of the parking lane as traffic approaches the circle, allowing for the two thru lanes to continue thru and a left turn pocket is formed for those that want to turn onto Eastern.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9930253,-77.0363372,3a,75y,203.71h,63.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2P4lr-b7_geMmVgbbMW8Ug!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

More from my letter:

Quote

From Colesville Rd [MD-384], there are two southbound traffic lanes and one lane of parking south of East-West Highway [MD-410].  This widens to 3 lanes southbound once parking is prohibited as one gets closer to the circle.  The 2 left lanes have the majority of the traffic since these are a continuation of the main traffic pattern and the right lane has very little since it only began where the parking stopped.  For the old traffic pattern at the circle, this worked fine since the 2 left lanes of Colesville, with the heaviest traffic, defaulted onto the 2 lanes of 16th, and the low traffic right lane forced a right turn onto North Portal.  For the new traffic pattern, the 2 left lanes should gradually shift to the right IN MARYLAND, (before reaching the circle), so that the heaviest traffic from Colesville defaults directly onto 16th.  The middle lane of Colesville shifts right to become the right lane of the circle and the right lane of 16th in DC.  The left lane of Colesville shifts right to become the middle lane of the circle and the left lane of 16th in DC.  The lane shift will allow for the painting of a left turn pocket that approaches the circle to become the left lane of the circle which will force a left onto Eastern.


The current approach from Colesville is slightly different from my recommendation, but it is still very good.  The curb lane forces a right turn onto 16th north, and the two left lanes lead to 16th south, as shown in these views:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9926271,-77.035289,3a,75y,265h,74.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6HbvJcm1rO3px5aHJ3oxkg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9924981,-77.0361233,3a,75y,250.59h,69.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxoTXwH3X5mfj5ykJnYwenw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Looking closely, you can see the old paint and the new paint below.  The new pain allows both lanes of Colesville to continue onto 16th and giving the left lane the option of continuing onto Eastern.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9924718,-77.0364166,3a,75y,233.93h,52.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sguXQwugViXZlS6tPoarfhA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Now given that it has been almost a year from the time that I wrote my letter until the time MD SHA acted, I am aware that my letter did not move them, but I am still gratified that my ideas for improving this approach were eventually implemented.

Satellite views of the changes are also available.

16th street circle:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9922624,-77.0363739,174m/data=!3m1!1e3

16th / East-West Highwy.  The hatch lines make an interesting geometry in the intersection.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.994761,-77.0362564,174m/data=!3m1!1e3
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 14, 2022, 09:20:34 AM
I have the urge to respond to the following to note that driving in the bike lane is apparently OK. (But I won't do so, mainly because I assume the moving violation falls within a different agency's bailiwick. The number of different law enforcement agencies that can issue tickets in DC is rather astonishing.)

https://twitter.com/DCDPW/status/1536695554205433863
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on June 16, 2022, 01:07:57 PM
I don't think it's terribly surprising - parking enforcement vs moving violations.

I know in Alexandria, they have dedicated parking enforcement staff, with their own vehicles. I think they may fall under the City's police or sheriff's department, but I assume they are responsible primarily, if not entirely, for all parking violations.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 18, 2022, 04:23:00 PM
The intersection of South Capitol Street and Potomac Avenue outside Nats Park has changed just a bit.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220618/677412520641c86a5e08400ebd60907f.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220618/a9fd326066c594ff124a85f94846b53f.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220618/e65ef0c9f985801badaca5d4c7157385.jpg)

For those who haven't seen the bridge:

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220618/3fd824b00978edd536db73b45a956a06.jpg)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: bluecountry on June 25, 2022, 09:27:34 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on December 29, 2021, 02:25:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 29, 2021, 02:01:14 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 29, 2021, 01:59:04 PM
Is Interstate 195 and the Interstate 395 reroute signposted yet? If not, when might it happen? Sorry if I sound impatient, but if it's going to happen, it should happen sooner rather than later.

Not as of December 15 when I drove home from Union Station. Don't know when they plan to do it.

I did notice, from glancing up and to the right, that the ancient signs on the ramp to the 12th Street Tunnel are still up, though I suspect their days are numbered.

I clinched I-395 and I-695 Sunday and nothing had changed.
I guess I-395 is still an ok route #, since the new terminus will be at DC 295 not I-295.
However, they should have I-395 directional remain N/S from the Beltway to 'I-195' and from the junction be E/W.  Might they do that, and do you agree?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 01, 2022, 06:38:48 PM
From tonight's news: DC Council considers banning right turns on red  (https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/dc-council-considers-no-right-turns-on-red-lights/3121896/) (note, left on red is already illegal in DC).

I understand the concerns about bad driver behavior because many, probably most, local drivers are out of control with right on red–they neither stop nor yield. On the other hand, this would increase air pollution, waste fuel, and make legal right turns extremely difficult because DC pedestrians refuse to obey "Don't Walk" signs. Enforcing those signs becomes very important if you don't allow right on red because otherwise you're stuck waiting for illegally-crossing pedestrians and you wind up running the red light. DC will almost certainly increase the number of red light cameras, too.

A better idea might be to start by restricting turns on red during the day (7 AM to 7 PM) in areas with high pedestrian traffic, or during high traffic times in areas around Verizon Center and Nationals Park.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: plain on August 01, 2022, 08:52:22 PM
There's so many NTOR situations already in DC that they might as well go ahead and make it a city-wide thing. The way that the streets are laid out, might as well.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on August 04, 2022, 08:56:44 PM
Quote from: plain on August 01, 2022, 08:52:22 PM
There's so many NTOR situations already in DC that they might as well go ahead and make it a city-wide thing. The way that the streets are laid out, might as well.

Agreed.  There are enough intersection in DC that fit the bill of being in areas with decent pedestrian traffic, oddly configured intersections, and other present dangers that NTOR would not really  be that much of a problem.  I believe federal law would require that DDOT put up NTOR signs at every intersection, as only NYC was allowed a blanket exception to the federal law that generally prohibited NTOR duiring the oil crisis of the 1970s.

I do hope the law does allow for exceptions, though, as there are still a few areas of DC where NTOR isn't really warranted in areas where nobody is walking around.  Even NYC has some exceptions that are signed "right turn on red permitted after stop" in the quieter sections of the outer boroughs.  In Broad Channel, they even allow left on red at certain corners.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 05, 2022, 08:34:57 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 04, 2022, 08:56:44 PM
Quote from: plain on August 01, 2022, 08:52:22 PM
There's so many NTOR situations already in DC that they might as well go ahead and make it a city-wide thing. The way that the streets are laid out, might as well.

Agreed.  There are enough intersection in DC that fit the bill of being in areas with decent pedestrian traffic, oddly configured intersections, and other present dangers that NTOR would not really  be that much of a problem.  I believe federal law would require that DDOT put up NTOR signs at every intersection, as only NYC was allowed a blanket exception to the federal law that generally prohibited NTOR duiring the oil crisis of the 1970s.

I do hope the law does allow for exceptions, though, as there are still a few areas of DC where NTOR isn't really warranted in areas where nobody is walking around.  Even NYC has some exceptions that are signed "right turn on red permitted after stop" in the quieter sections of the outer boroughs.  In Broad Channel, they even allow left on red at certain corners.

Also at two lights in Manhattan near the Macombs Dam Bridge:

https://goo.gl/maps/wm1DBK2FNkdDLh2x7

https://goo.gl/maps/V4QLSEmCi4EryH7a7
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on August 05, 2022, 12:08:38 PM
For DC, I don't think eliminating right-on-red would be too big of a deal. There are ways to deal with it:

* more all-way walks (aka, Barnes Dance): moving pedestrians to their own exclusive phase can be pretty annoying for pedestrians, as it makes progression harder (more waiting), but it can really improve capacity for turning traffic during the green phase.

* more double right turns: these could be installed in-tandem with all-way walk intersections. DC already has quite a few of these, but I think you could add more if pedestrians were removed from that specific phase, with the only real danger being traffic not staying in lane when turning.

* more right-turn filter signals (green arrows): any intersection that doesn't presently have one, really should have a right-turn green arrow. In situations where the intersection does not operate with an all-way walk, pedestrian walk times can be reduced and the remaining time afforded to a green arrow. If there is an oncoming permissive left turn (where a right on green arrow would technically conflict, per MUTCD rules), the right turn green arrow can simply be lit when the corresponding left turn is active from the cross street.

At the very least, if NTOR is implemented city-wide, more of an effort has to be made by drivers to pull as far into the intersection when turning as possible, to allow for at least a couple or more cars to turn at the end of the cycle.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 05, 2022, 12:31:34 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 05, 2022, 12:08:38 PM
For DC, I don't think eliminating right-on-red would be too big of a deal. There are ways to deal with it:

* more all-way walks (aka, Barnes Dance): moving pedestrians to their own exclusive phase can be pretty annoying for pedestrians, as it makes progression harder (more waiting), but it can really improve capacity for turning traffic during the green phase.

* more double right turns: these could be installed in-tandem with all-way walk intersections. DC already has quite a few of these, but I think you could add more if pedestrians were removed from that specific phase, with the only real danger being traffic not staying in lane when turning.

* more right-turn filter signals (green arrows): any intersection that doesn't presently have one, really should have a right-turn green arrow. In situations where the intersection does not operate with an all-way walk, pedestrian walk times can be reduced and the remaining time afforded to a green arrow. If there is an oncoming permissive left turn (where a right on green arrow would technically conflict, per MUTCD rules), the right turn green arrow can simply be lit when the corresponding left turn is active from the cross street.

At the very least, if NTOR is implemented city-wide, more of an effort has to be made by drivers to pull as far into the intersection when turning as possible, to allow for at least a couple or more cars to turn at the end of the cycle.

The problem with the boldfaced is that nobody trusts DC's red-light cameras not to ticket you in that situation. There are enough demonstrated problems with some of DC's traffic cameras (especially one of the stop sign cameras) that I can't blame them.

The other points you make are valid insofar as they go, but they rely on the assumption that the pedestrians will obey the signals and that DC would also implement the Barnes Dance properly. Right now, they banned all turns at the Barnes Dance intersection because they decided not to restrict pedestrian crossing time only to the all-way crossing phase (this because they concluded, almost certainly correctly, that pedestrians would refuse to wait for the all-way phase). As I noted earlier, I seriously question whether "removing" pedestrians from a specific phase will work. Let me offer 18th & L NW (https://goo.gl/maps/fWwjSrzJRidpKW7b6) as an example. Do you see the sign in the Street View that says to turn right only when the green arrow is on? The problem is that the green arrow is lagging–it comes on at the end of the cycle. Pedestrians flat-out refuse to stop crossing despite turning traffic getting the green arrow. If a driver takes the right of way to which he is entitled and forces the issue, people get aggressive; I've seen people pound on cars, kick the side of cars, jump in front of cars to make them stop, etc. Never mind that the driver has the green light. Sometimes pedestrians are certainly correct to get angry at drivers who force their way through against the "Walk" signal or who run red lights, but when the drivers have the right of way, the pedestrians need to get out of the way. I strongly believe banning turns on red will just increase the potential for conflict, especially since a lot of intersections don't have dedicated turn phases and instead rely on the idea that when the red hand is flashing, you're not supposed to start crossing.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on August 05, 2022, 01:00:33 PM
Perhaps NTOR should be accompanied by ticketing people who enter the crosswalk after the walk signal ends.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: hotdogPi on August 05, 2022, 01:03:46 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 05, 2022, 01:00:33 PM
Perhaps NTOR should be accompanied by ticketing people who enter the crosswalk after the walk signal ends.

I walk a lot, and I often enter when the street I'm crossing has a green – as long as nobody is there.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on August 05, 2022, 01:28:13 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 05, 2022, 12:31:34 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 05, 2022, 12:08:38 PM
For DC, I don't think eliminating right-on-red would be too big of a deal. There are ways to deal with it:

* more all-way walks (aka, Barnes Dance): moving pedestrians to their own exclusive phase can be pretty annoying for pedestrians, as it makes progression harder (more waiting), but it can really improve capacity for turning traffic during the green phase.

* more double right turns: these could be installed in-tandem with all-way walk intersections. DC already has quite a few of these, but I think you could add more if pedestrians were removed from that specific phase, with the only real danger being traffic not staying in lane when turning.

* more right-turn filter signals (green arrows): any intersection that doesn't presently have one, really should have a right-turn green arrow. In situations where the intersection does not operate with an all-way walk, pedestrian walk times can be reduced and the remaining time afforded to a green arrow. If there is an oncoming permissive left turn (where a right on green arrow would technically conflict, per MUTCD rules), the right turn green arrow can simply be lit when the corresponding left turn is active from the cross street.

At the very least, if NTOR is implemented city-wide, more of an effort has to be made by drivers to pull as far into the intersection when turning as possible, to allow for at least a couple or more cars to turn at the end of the cycle.

The problem with the boldfaced is that nobody trusts DC's red-light cameras not to ticket you in that situation. There are enough demonstrated problems with some of DC's traffic cameras (especially one of the stop sign cameras) that I can't blame them.

If you're beyond the limit line (in the crosswalk or beyond it), you shouldn't get a ticket. The limit line is normally where the activation for the cameras would be.

Regarding the stop-sign signals, I can't believe locals haven't taken a bat to them yet.

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 05, 2022, 12:31:34 PM
The other points you make are valid insofar as they go, but they rely on the assumption that the pedestrians will obey the signals and that DC would also implement the Barnes Dance properly. Right now, they banned all turns at the Barnes Dance intersection because they decided not to restrict pedestrian crossing time only to the all-way crossing phase (this because they concluded, almost certainly correctly, that pedestrians would refuse to wait for the all-way phase). As I noted earlier, I seriously question whether "removing" pedestrians from a specific phase will work. Let me offer 18th & L NW (https://goo.gl/maps/fWwjSrzJRidpKW7b6) as an example. Do you see the sign in the Street View that says to turn right only when the green arrow is on? The problem is that the green arrow is lagging–it comes on at the end of the cycle. Pedestrians flat-out refuse to stop crossing despite turning traffic getting the green arrow. If a driver takes the right of way to which he is entitled and forces the issue, people get aggressive; I've seen people pound on cars, kick the side of cars, jump in front of cars to make them stop, etc. Never mind that the driver has the green light. Sometimes pedestrians are certainly correct to get angry at drivers who force their way through against the "Walk" signal or who run red lights, but when the drivers have the right of way, the pedestrians need to get out of the way. I strongly believe banning turns on red will just increase the potential for conflict, especially since a lot of intersections don't have dedicated turn phases and instead rely on the idea that when the red hand is flashing, you're not supposed to start crossing.

If I understand what you're saying correctly, what difference would it really make whether there is right-on-red or not? If pedestrians in DC really, truly, don't care (which has not been my experience -- most obey the signals), you're going to conflict with pedestrians whether you're turning right on red (pedestrians crossing in front of you) or turning right on green (pedestrians crossing to your right). Eliminating right-on-red would reduce the potential amount of time you could turn, but from your synopsis, that's not really much time anyways. And on the flip-side, eliminating right-on-red may jumpstart serious signal improvements across the city that otherwise have not been implemented because of right-on-red being legal (lack of dedicated turning lanes, turning signals, etc).

In other world cities (largely none of which permit turns-on-red, apart from some areas of Sydney), the issues you're describing are already reality: drivers basically forcing their way through pedestrians, lots of honking, shouting, etc. It's just how it is when drivers are limited to turning on green and yellow only. Whether it's a better overall setup than what we have here, I don't know.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 18, 2022, 12:19:55 PM
Dave Dildine just posted this great old picture:

https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1560299763295465472
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: plain on August 18, 2022, 03:21:50 PM
Wow!! What a great shot.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on August 19, 2022, 10:31:30 AM
Of note in the above photo: Key Bridge still only 2 lanes each way, with streetcar track in the middle. The track was removed in 1955, and the bridge widened to 3 lanes each way (stealing some space from the sidewalks). Whitehurst Freeway opened in 1949, and looks brand new in the photo. East end of the Whitehurst only ties in with K Street.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dawnet.com%2FAAroads%2FPotomacFwy.jpg&hash=e65aa7b97242eeb2c2e4f1e7ef0812b9c30f0ab0)
Mid 60's photo showing ramps which would tie into the east end of I-66. Wish I knew where I got this photo... Updating to add: image from dcroads.net, which got it from the DC DoT archives.

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on August 19, 2022, 05:38:57 PM
I was perusing DC on Street View today and noticed that 12th St SW @ Independence is no longer a double left turn. This was one of the few remaining double left turns in DC that used permissive phasing. It also appears to be using a leading left turn now with a 5-section tower; the old intersection used a lagging green 4-section arrow signal, which caused a yellow trap for traffic going east to north.

GSV: https://goo.gl/maps/qVLYcHZe59UiRNxc6

Here's a video I took of the intersection a few years ago showing its old operation, probably close to it's maximum capacity. Has DC been anywhere close to this busy since?

https://youtu.be/x5RbNLwuoqc
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on August 23, 2022, 05:35:13 PM
I found the intersection where US 1 turns from NW 6th Street NB to Rhode Island Avenue EB is unshielded. Though US 29 from EB RI Ave to NB NW 6th Street that gets signed. 
https://goo.gl/maps/GscGJ9EBizAeqoLn7
Two US routes, one intersection, but one gets axed but the other gets signed.

Plus why was US 29 realigned anyway? US 1 and 29 never met before..
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on August 23, 2022, 06:11:49 PM
Traffic on US 29 NB must turn left onto NW 6th St as left-turns are banned on RI Ave EB at NW 7th St.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on August 23, 2022, 07:24:00 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on August 23, 2022, 06:11:49 PM
Traffic on US 29 NB must turn left onto NW 6th St as left-turns are banned on RI Ave EB at NW 7th St.

I'm talking about overall. It had a different alignment in the city originally. The change was not that long ago either. 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Mapmikey on August 23, 2022, 08:18:08 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 23, 2022, 07:24:00 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on August 23, 2022, 06:11:49 PM
Traffic on US 29 NB must turn left onto NW 6th St as left-turns are banned on RI Ave EB at NW 7th St.

I'm talking about overall. It had a different alignment in the city originally. The change was not that long ago either. 

US 29 was approved to move from 16th to Georgia in May 1984.  Per their application, this is why:

Quote
The present route goes from control point (1) via the Scott Key Bridge and the Whitehurst Freeway to control point (2) at the Washington Circle. Thence via the Washington Circle, along New Hampshire Avenue and around Dupont Circle to control point (3).

From control point (3) the route proceeds along 16th Street, N.W. to control point (4), and along Alaska Avenue to control point (5) at D.C. - Maryland border, at the intersection of Alaska and Georgia Avenues.

The travel through the circles, and particularly around Dupont Circle, is a problem, even for many natives, not only for strangers. Additionally, the major portion of the route, namely 16th Street, N.W., is a densely settled residential corridor; in accord with a neighborhood traffic policy, the street is being reduced in width from five (5) to four (4) lanes with parking on both sides of the street.

In contrast, Georgia Avenue is a six lane arterial and is a commerical corridor.

Although,the relocated route is approximately 1.6 miles longer than the existing route, the former avoids the confusing travel around the circles, and the use of residential streets
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on August 23, 2022, 10:33:05 PM
Makes sense for that.

However poor to no existing signs on the other two US routes has no reasoning at all.

Then is US 1 SB and US 50 WB still aligned along L Street WB and NW 9th going SB?

To me I never figured why two way NW 6th can't be SB US 1 and WB US 50 from L Street to Constitution Avenue just like the NB- EB counterparts.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on August 24, 2022, 07:39:09 AM
That explanation of the old routing could at least theoretically explain why the unisign seen below was posted on New Hampshire Avenue just south of Dupont Circle a few years ago (I don't know whether it's still there). Of course, even then the sign's location is odd because US-29 had not followed that route in over 30 years when they posted this. Nice-looking sign, IMO, even if an error.

Edited to add: The most recent Google Street View there is from October 2019. Street View also shows the sign was not there as of 2014, so that confirms it was first posted over 30 years after the re-routing was approved. If they'd used a "TO" instead of a directional banner, the sign would arguably be accurate (though maybe not necessarily all that helpful because there's no sign telling you where to go next after you turn right onto Dupont Circle up ahead).

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FC243DE13-A3F8-4CFF-88B4-D895AEC13B93_zpsufawbwiu.jpg&hash=9295c20c17cb4468ae3c7553e7c34e412f44958a)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on August 24, 2022, 02:58:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 05, 2022, 01:28:13 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 05, 2022, 12:31:34 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 05, 2022, 12:08:38 PM
For DC, I don't think eliminating right-on-red would be too big of a deal. There are ways to deal with it:

* more all-way walks (aka, Barnes Dance): moving pedestrians to their own exclusive phase can be pretty annoying for pedestrians, as it makes progression harder (more waiting), but it can really improve capacity for turning traffic during the green phase.

* more double right turns: these could be installed in-tandem with all-way walk intersections. DC already has quite a few of these, but I think you could add more if pedestrians were removed from that specific phase, with the only real danger being traffic not staying in lane when turning.

* more right-turn filter signals (green arrows): any intersection that doesn't presently have one, really should have a right-turn green arrow. In situations where the intersection does not operate with an all-way walk, pedestrian walk times can be reduced and the remaining time afforded to a green arrow. If there is an oncoming permissive left turn (where a right on green arrow would technically conflict, per MUTCD rules), the right turn green arrow can simply be lit when the corresponding left turn is active from the cross street.

At the very least, if NTOR is implemented city-wide, more of an effort has to be made by drivers to pull as far into the intersection when turning as possible, to allow for at least a couple or more cars to turn at the end of the cycle.

The problem with the boldfaced is that nobody trusts DC's red-light cameras not to ticket you in that situation. There are enough demonstrated problems with some of DC's traffic cameras (especially one of the stop sign cameras) that I can't blame them.

If you're beyond the limit line (in the crosswalk or beyond it), you shouldn't get a ticket. The limit line is normally where the activation for the cameras would be.

Regarding the stop-sign signals, I can't believe locals haven't taken a bat to them yet.

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 05, 2022, 12:31:34 PM
The other points you make are valid insofar as they go, but they rely on the assumption that the pedestrians will obey the signals and that DC would also implement the Barnes Dance properly. Right now, they banned all turns at the Barnes Dance intersection because they decided not to restrict pedestrian crossing time only to the all-way crossing phase (this because they concluded, almost certainly correctly, that pedestrians would refuse to wait for the all-way phase). As I noted earlier, I seriously question whether "removing" pedestrians from a specific phase will work. Let me offer 18th & L NW (https://goo.gl/maps/fWwjSrzJRidpKW7b6) as an example. Do you see the sign in the Street View that says to turn right only when the green arrow is on? The problem is that the green arrow is lagging–it comes on at the end of the cycle. Pedestrians flat-out refuse to stop crossing despite turning traffic getting the green arrow. If a driver takes the right of way to which he is entitled and forces the issue, people get aggressive; I've seen people pound on cars, kick the side of cars, jump in front of cars to make them stop, etc. Never mind that the driver has the green light. Sometimes pedestrians are certainly correct to get angry at drivers who force their way through against the "Walk" signal or who run red lights, but when the drivers have the right of way, the pedestrians need to get out of the way. I strongly believe banning turns on red will just increase the potential for conflict, especially since a lot of intersections don't have dedicated turn phases and instead rely on the idea that when the red hand is flashing, you're not supposed to start crossing.

If I understand what you're saying correctly, what difference would it really make whether there is right-on-red or not? If pedestrians in DC really, truly, don't care (which has not been my experience -- most obey the signals), you're going to conflict with pedestrians whether you're turning right on red (pedestrians crossing in front of you) or turning right on green (pedestrians crossing to your right). Eliminating right-on-red would reduce the potential amount of time you could turn, but from your synopsis, that's not really much time anyways. And on the flip-side, eliminating right-on-red may jumpstart serious signal improvements across the city that otherwise have not been implemented because of right-on-red being legal (lack of dedicated turning lanes, turning signals, etc).

In other world cities (largely none of which permit turns-on-red, apart from some areas of Sydney), the issues you're describing are already reality: drivers basically forcing their way through pedestrians, lots of honking, shouting, etc. It's just how it is when drivers are limited to turning on green and yellow only. Whether it's a better overall setup than what we have here, I don't know.

I think we all understand that NTOR is generally safer for pedestrians, since the turn on red move usually means that drivers have to do two things at once, watch for a gap in car traffic and make sure there are no pedestrians in the path.  Given the added difficulty, it is usually prohibited in areas of heavy pedestrian  traffic, including mamy intersections in downtown DC.  The turn on green has some pedestrian conflict too, but drivers only have to worry about a pedestrian gap, since right turn on green would have priority over any possibly conflicting auto traffic.

My own observations in walking around town over the last couple of months is that there is generally less pedestrian traffic than pre-pandemic.  I'll wait to see if it picks up again after Labor Day, but very likely with many offices going to full-time or part-time WFH, it means that on any given day, you'll probably only see about 40-50% of the pedestrinas that you used to see.  My office building definitely feels emptier, and I am now only going in twice a week (I went in four times a week pre-pandemic.)  All that being said, is with lower pedestrian volumes, it may be easier to make turns.  And while I can't speak for 18th and L specifically, I can say that at more and more locations, there are fewer pedestrians who are crossing on red in front of turning cars.

A few blocks away, there is a good implementation of both LPI and lagging left.  LPI is basically a default DC prioritive - they are basically adding a leading pedestrian interval at every signalized intersection, and it is implemented in the most basic way, allowing walk to come on a few seconds before red orb changes to green.  As a way to help cars turn, a leading left was added, but cars are allowed to turn green (while yielding to pedestrians) for most of the green phase.  They do not have to wait for the arrow, the arrow is meant to help clear the intersection because there are a lot of pedestrians here (in Downtown and near a Metro entrance).

17th and I:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9013207,-77.0393633,3a,15y,259.61h,89.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slHWm7WySqWl0MsV2LeMNBA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The left from I to 17th is quite busy and it gets the assistance of a lagging left.  Since I is one way, the only conflict on green ball is pedestrians.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on August 24, 2022, 03:42:20 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 19, 2022, 05:38:57 PM
I was perusing DC on Street View today and noticed that 12th St SW @ Independence is no longer a double left turn. This was one of the few remaining double left turns in DC that used permissive phasing. It also appears to be using a leading left turn now with a 5-section tower; the old intersection used a lagging green 4-section arrow signal, which caused a yellow trap for traffic going east to north.

GSV: https://goo.gl/maps/qVLYcHZe59UiRNxc6

Here's a video I took of the intersection a few years ago showing its old operation, probably close to it's maximum capacity. Has DC been anywhere close to this busy since?

https://youtu.be/x5RbNLwuoqc

I know I mentioned this somewhere earlier, but DC, as a policy, are removing all permissive double turns in the interests of pedestrian safety.  This means that turns will either be restricted to a single lane, or double turns will be allowed, but on green arrow only.  I believe that this was one of the intersections they targeted, and it seems that the job is completed at this intersection.

A pet peeve of mine for driving in DC is that Independence and Constitution don't have a regular full length left turn lane.  These are wide streets that are 8 lanes wide (3 in each direction + 2 parking lanes that allow traffic during rush hours), so there is definitely room for a left turn lane.  Traffic in the left lane would run more smoothly, if it wouldn't be blocked by left turning or suddenly forced to make a left turn, as in the case here.

1995hoo has mentioned this problematic intersection at 18th/Constitution before, in that its old configuration forces both the left and the second to left lanes to turn left.  DC has made some adjustments and now only the left lane forces a left turn, since a double left was created by taking away some parking and shifting the three remaining westbound lanes.

Here's a look (and be sure to compare with old GSV's to see a before/after scenario)

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.892092,-77.0428827,3a,75y,81.91h,71.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCviwfiKciyLKoU6iRs5AqQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

So while this is still not a consistent thru left lane, it does alleviate numerous problems that existed at this specific intersection.

(But it still forces the right lane to turn right at 17th.  The eastbound lanes should also shift so that the three thru lanes at 18th should allow for thru movement at 17th as well.)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Strider on September 11, 2022, 10:28:33 PM
I am amazed how poooooorly the US 29, US 50 and US 1 are signed through through DC. What gives? At least US 50 isn't that bad, but still pooorly signed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 12, 2022, 12:51:46 PM
What chuffs me about this tweet is his use of "BGS."

https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1569149407722983424
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: odditude on September 12, 2022, 06:06:35 PM
nitpicky, but i much prefer when there's a small gap between the shield(s) of the route you're on and the "to" section - i'd also prefer a single centered "TO" here (see here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2180486,-74.7710471,3a,75y,133.6h,98.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s42WrY2tYUFcEMLVFW-rZCA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) for an example).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on September 13, 2022, 10:28:30 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 12, 2022, 12:51:46 PM
What chuffs me about this tweet is his use of "BGS."

https://twitter.com/DildineWTOP/status/1569149407722983424

Dildine uses a lot of roadgeek lingo in his tweets and reports. It's pretty cool.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 13, 2022, 10:37:30 AM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on September 13, 2022, 10:28:30 AM
Dildine uses a lot of roadgeek lingo in his tweets and reports. It's pretty cool.

I once asked him whether the future I-195 would take us to the Portal to Alanland. He "liked" the tweet but didn't reply.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on September 13, 2022, 10:38:24 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 13, 2022, 10:37:30 AM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on September 13, 2022, 10:28:30 AM
Dildine uses a lot of roadgeek lingo in his tweets and reports. It's pretty cool.

I once asked him whether the future I-195 would take us to the Portal to Alanland. He "liked" the tweet but didn't reply.

I bet he reads the forum and is totally familiar with Alanland, but because of Alanland's nature he is forbidden to report on it, lest the Goat Apocalypse be unleashed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 13, 2022, 10:47:38 AM
Speaking of I-195, does anyone know anything at all about the status of that change? There have been so many sign replacements in DC over the past couple of years that I would have figured that would have been part of them.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on September 13, 2022, 07:32:24 PM
Quote from: odditude on September 12, 2022, 06:06:35 PM
nitpicky, but i much prefer when there's a small gap between the shield(s) of the route you're on and the "to" section - i'd also prefer a single centered "TO" here (see here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2180486,-74.7710471,3a,75y,133.6h,98.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s42WrY2tYUFcEMLVFW-rZCA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) for an example).

I definitely agree with your point, especially considering that 95/495 are co-signed on this part of the Beltway.  So it isn't 295 to two different highways, it's 295 to one highway that has two numbers.

So it makes far more sense to have:

SOUTH            TO
295             95   495

with the 95 and 495 being very close to each other and a decent spacing between 295 and 95.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: yanksfan6129 on September 13, 2022, 11:58:21 PM
driving up Connecticut Avenue NW the past few days (northwest of Rock Creek Park), I've noticed what appear to be new signs indicated a speed limit of 25, lower than the previous 30. Does anyone know when these went up? I'm on this road very frequently and just noticed it yesterday I think. Of course, sometime in the past couple of years they lowered the speed limit on Wisconsin Ave between Western Ave and Bradley Lane from 35 to 30. The arc of the traffic universe is long, but it bends toward lower speed limits.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on September 14, 2022, 08:32:24 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 13, 2022, 10:47:38 AM
Speaking of I-195, does anyone know anything at all about the status of that change? There have been so many sign replacements in DC over the past couple of years that I would have figured that would have been part of them.

One of the great mysteries of the universe. New I-695 signage went up on I-395 after the renumbering was approved, so who knows when it'll actually happen?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: yanksfan6129 on September 19, 2022, 04:43:21 PM
Quote from: yanksfan6129 on September 13, 2022, 11:58:21 PM
driving up Connecticut Avenue NW the past few days (northwest of Rock Creek Park), I've noticed what appear to be new signs indicated a speed limit of 25, lower than the previous 30. Does anyone know when these went up? I'm on this road very frequently and just noticed it yesterday I think. Of course, sometime in the past couple of years they lowered the speed limit on Wisconsin Ave between Western Ave and Bradley Lane from 35 to 30. The arc of the traffic universe is long, but it bends toward lower speed limits.

Well well well... https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/09/18/dc-lowers-speed-limits-crashes/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on September 22, 2022, 07:25:49 AM
https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/09/19/changes-to-dc-road-laws/

Don't know about this.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 22, 2022, 07:37:48 AM
On the 6:00 news last night, they said the proposed law would not take full effect until 2025.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on September 22, 2022, 07:42:39 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 22, 2022, 07:37:48 AM
On the 6:00 news last night, they said the proposed law would not take full effect until 2025.


It's ironic how the concept of allowing RTOR came about to save fuel and protect the environment and how this law is somewhat to do the same.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on September 22, 2022, 09:10:05 AM
Never understood the RTOR fuel savings argument. By that logic, why shouldn't a motorist be able to perform a LTOR, or a straight-on-red, presuming the coast is clear?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: hotdogPi on September 22, 2022, 09:12:02 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 22, 2022, 09:10:05 AM
Never understood the RTOR fuel savings argument. By that logic, why shouldn't a motorist be able to perform a LTOR, or a straight-on-red, presuming the coast is clear?

For the straight on red idea, I asked this in its own thread here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=16637). It was briefly tried in a few areas and then scrapped.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on September 22, 2022, 09:14:31 AM
I should also note that I was hit by a car once in a RTOR on red situation. I was in the crosswalk on a bike, with the permissive pedestrian signal. The driver, at the red, was looking to her left to see for an opening to make her RTOR, but never bothered to look ahead to see for pedestrians with the right-of-way (i.e. myself).

I wasn't hurt, although my bike was a little damaged. It was really eye-opening, because I think she meant well and was a fairly responsible driver. What it taught me is that in busier urban intersections with pedestrians, it's very hard to process all of the information to make a safe RTOR.

My own policy preference is no RTOR during daytime/working hours, such as 7 AM - 7 PM.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: roadman65 on September 22, 2022, 09:56:17 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 22, 2022, 09:10:05 AM
Never understood the RTOR fuel savings argument. By that logic, why shouldn't a motorist be able to perform a LTOR, or a straight-on-red, presuming the coast is clear?

I never did either but this was all part of the same era as the National 55 law or the purge to self serve ( minus NJ and OR).

I think this has to do with safety of pedestrians and cyclists as it's now harder than ever for autos and bikes to cohabitate than it was forty years ago.  I used to ride in the streets with no worries. Now I use the sidewalks for the unawareness of today's motorists.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 22, 2022, 11:54:50 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 22, 2022, 09:14:31 AM
....

My own policy preference is no RTOR during daytime/working hours, such as 7 AM - 7 PM.

As I'm sure you know, that's quite common in some parts of Northern Virginia. Alexandria, of course, sometimes prohibits turns on red when pedestrians are present. I don't love that arrangement because it's not always entirely clear what it means for a pedestrian to be "present," and I think it sometimes results in an unnecessary prohibition if a pedestrian is very clearly waiting to cross in a direction that would not come in conflict with the turn on red. (One location that comes to mind is the traffic light outside the Whole Foods on Duke Street. If a pedestrian is clearly waiting to cross Holland Lane to the Whole Foods and there is no other pedestrian present, there's little reason to prohibit someone waiting on Holland at the red light from turning right on red onto Duke Street.)

I can think of some places where restrictions at hours other than 7 AM to 7 PM might be preferable. Sports venues like Nationals Park, where the overwhelming majority of games are night games and where there's relatively low pedestrian volume during most daytime hours during the week, would be an example of a place where some other range of hours might be preferable.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on September 22, 2022, 12:06:32 PM
Yes, which is why I think the time-based policy is better than the subjective policy.

Fun fact- at the intersection of N Jordan and Taney Ave (Foxchase area), there's a "No Turn on Red When Crossing Guard Present". Not sure if I've ever seen that one before.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on September 22, 2022, 10:43:16 PM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on September 22, 2022, 09:14:31 AM
I should also note that I was hit by a car once in a RTOR on red situation. I was in the crosswalk on a bike, with the permissive pedestrian signal. The driver, at the red, was looking to her left to see for an opening to make her RTOR, but never bothered to look ahead to see for pedestrians with the right-of-way (i.e. myself).

I wasn't hurt, although my bike was a little damaged. It was really eye-opening, because I think she meant well and was a fairly responsible driver. What it taught me is that in busier urban intersections with pedestrians, it's very hard to process all of the information to make a safe RTOR.

My own policy preference is no RTOR during daytime/working hours, such as 7 AM - 7 PM.
Was this an all-red phase for pedestrians? I would support NTOR during the ped phase and TOR during car phase.
EDIT: Wait, this was probably you crossing directly in front of the car. Driver's fault 200%.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: AlexandriaVA on September 23, 2022, 05:58:58 PM
Here's the intersection where it happened: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8400314,-77.1056783,3a,75y,271.85h,83.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCz5yEOtrJJnKjxw3FMQ3jA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Me: Traveling along the sidewalk on the south side of King Street, heading eastbound across 28th Street.
The cycle was in my favor (green for cars, "WALK" for pedestrians).

Her: Turning right from South 28th Street onto westbound King Street.
The cycle was not in her favor (red). Furthermore, she had a "No Right On Red When Pedestrians Present).

Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jmacswimmer on October 05, 2022, 12:49:08 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on September 14, 2022, 08:32:24 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 13, 2022, 10:47:38 AM
Speaking of I-195, does anyone know anything at all about the status of that change? There have been so many sign replacements in DC over the past couple of years that I would have figured that would have been part of them.

One of the great mysteries of the universe. New I-695 signage went up on I-395 after the renumbering was approved, so who knows when it'll actually happen?

Can confirm as of last night driving to & from Capital One Arena that I-395 & I-695 continue to be signed in their current configurations.

And as a side note for those that regularly drive DC 295: The speed cameras appear to have been shifted around recently. The very-well-known one SB immediately before the I-295/695 interchange has been removed, and a new one SB before Benning Rd has sprouted up in its place (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8975214,-76.9499772,3a,75y,267.55h,83.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2al5fIOAZKvg8SJ3hGnLkw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en).  It also appears the NB one by the Eastern Ave/Quarles St offramp has been removed, leaving one also by Benning Rd. (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8960904,-76.9513021,3a,75y,254.52h,87.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1symle598GKsp2PqusIYnw9g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on October 06, 2022, 07:39:42 AM
I drove into DC for a concert at the Anthem last night and I can confirm that the I-395/I-695 signs are still as they were and also, somehow, the ancient sign for 12th Street on the ramp from I-395 to the tunnel somehow remains in place despite all the other sign replacements and despite having lost most of its green surface.

I parked at L'Enfant Plaza because it's around $15 cheaper than parking at the Wharf. Aside from the last part of the walk back (down under the L'Enfant Promenade) being a little creepy at 11:20 at night, it was a good place to park and an easy walk. As a bonus, parking there let me see these two old favorites that remain in place (with the now very rare "District of Columbia" in the shields, too). I've always wondered why some old signs use hyphens for the street name. I wonder whether it's just to provide a visual separator for the single letter. My grandparents lived on a numbered street in Brooklyn and they wrote their address like that with a hyphen to separate the house number from the street name.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221006/c5769d95bc5345a24a301ff9eb11adcb.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221006/bf6409c8bf5963a98851c6b7b4b30d3d.jpg)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 06, 2022, 04:51:01 PM
If someone stole those signs (posibbly a local road geek looking for a souvenir), would they even be replaced? Those signs look like signs-that-time-forgot.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: FLAVORTOWN on November 17, 2022, 09:12:48 PM
DC's Infrastructure Plans Include Moving I-295 Underground, Redesigning North Capitol Street

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/dcs-major-infrastructure-plans-include-moving-i-295-underground-redesigning-north-capitol-street/3212071/

i think NBC4 meant DC-295, they mix that up constantly
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on December 02, 2022, 05:54:01 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 06, 2022, 07:39:42 AM
I drove into DC for a concert at the Anthem last night and I can confirm that the I-395/I-695 signs are still as they were and also, somehow, the ancient sign for 12th Street on the ramp from I-395 to the tunnel somehow remains in place despite all the other sign replacements and despite having lost most of its green surface.

I parked at L'Enfant Plaza because it's around $15 cheaper than parking at the Wharf. Aside from the last part of the walk back (down under the L'Enfant Promenade) being a little creepy at 11:20 at night, it was a good place to park and an easy walk. As a bonus, parking there let me see these two old favorites that remain in place (with the now very rare "District of Columbia" in the shields, too). I've always wondered why some old signs use hyphens for the street name. I wonder whether it's just to provide a visual separator for the single letter. My grandparents lived on a numbered street in Brooklyn and they wrote their address like that with a hyphen to separate the house number from the street name.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221006/c5769d95bc5345a24a301ff9eb11adcb.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221006/bf6409c8bf5963a98851c6b7b4b30d3d.jpg)

I would be tempted.......
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: FLAVORTOWN on December 26, 2022, 10:33:04 PM
Are they ever going to decommission 695? Whats the hold up
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on December 27, 2022, 01:25:22 PM
Maybe the DC Interstate redesignation plan will wait until the signs along Interstate 395 and Interstate 695 need to be replaced. Personally, I think the 395-to-195 and the 695-to 395 proposal should be abandoned. After all, 395 has existed since 95-through-Washington DC was canceled in 1977, and 695 has existed since 1958 (although it wasn't signposted until 2011).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: elsmere241 on December 30, 2022, 11:17:25 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 06, 2022, 07:39:42 AM
I drove into DC for a concert at the Anthem last night and I can confirm that the I-395/I-695 signs are still as they were and also, somehow, the ancient sign for 12th Street on the ramp from I-395 to the tunnel somehow remains in place despite all the other sign replacements and despite having lost most of its green surface.

I parked at L'Enfant Plaza because it's around $15 cheaper than parking at the Wharf. Aside from the last part of the walk back (down under the L'Enfant Promenade) being a little creepy at 11:20 at night, it was a good place to park and an easy walk. As a bonus, parking there let me see these two old favorites that remain in place (with the now very rare "District of Columbia" in the shields, too). I've always wondered why some old signs use hyphens for the street name. I wonder whether it's just to provide a visual separator for the single letter. My grandparents lived on a numbered street in Brooklyn and they wrote their address like that with a hyphen to separate the house number from the street name.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221006/c5769d95bc5345a24a301ff9eb11adcb.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221006/bf6409c8bf5963a98851c6b7b4b30d3d.jpg)

I've seen those signs three times: in 1981, 1992, and 2003.  I remember in 1981 we were headed to Arlington and my father turned left there, leading us through a big maze until he stopped and asked for directions.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 27, 2023, 08:10:42 AM
Not sure where else to put this.

https://twitter.com/STATter911/status/1640321576183767040
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on March 28, 2023, 08:31:24 AM
Well it *IS* still technically the District there...😌

Half my Twitter feed this weekend was filled with the stupidity of those driving to see the cherry blossoms and creating massive gridlock as a result.  A friend of mine had a flight out of DCA and snapped a pic that showed 17th, Independence, and the Kutz Bridge absolutely jammed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 28, 2023, 08:48:31 AM
Quote from: froggie on March 28, 2023, 08:31:24 AM
Well it *IS* still technically the District there...😌

I just meant I couldn't think of a better place. If we had a thread like "stupid driving" or similar, I'd have put it there.

Quote from: froggie on March 28, 2023, 08:31:24 AM
Half my Twitter feed this weekend was filled with the stupidity of those driving to see the cherry blossoms and creating massive gridlock as a result.  A friend of mine had a flight out of DCA and snapped a pic that showed 17th, Independence, and the Kutz Bridge absolutely jammed.

Heh. I got back from New York just before 8:00 Thursday night (was supposed to be Wednesday night, but all southbound trains were cancelled due to a fairly big trackside brush fire in New Jersey). I-395 from the Third Street Tunnel to the 14th Street Bridge was at an absolute crawl even at 8:15 PM and the radio said the main reason was Tidal Basin traffic. I believe it. Last night we went downtown for the Springsteen concert at Verizon Center and we took I-295 instead–Google Maps and Apple Maps both showed a roughly 20-minute delay inbound over the 14th Street Bridge. I briefly considered using Memorial Bridge to Constitution Avenue but figured, as you note, that 17th might be jammed and that it might result in box-blocking.

Speaking of I-295, for those who use that road, take note that the northbound speed camera near Blue Plains has been relocated to the median at the overpass just before Exit 1–in the current Street View image, you can see it just above the VW SUV in the left lane (https://goo.gl/maps/oqnA6ARmoey8CtEf7).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on March 30, 2023, 02:18:58 AM
Sudden left turn?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on March 30, 2023, 07:41:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 30, 2023, 02:18:58 AM
Sudden left turn?

If you're wondering why he said that in his tweet, it's because he's the same guy who posts the video of people swerving across four lanes of I-395 near Crystal City to get to the left-side Exit 8C for southbound Route 1.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on April 11, 2023, 10:48:15 PM
The cherry blossom festival in Newark NJ is much less crowded ;)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: jakeroot on April 19, 2023, 10:47:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 30, 2023, 07:41:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 30, 2023, 02:18:58 AM
Sudden left turn?

If you're wondering why he said that in his tweet, it's because he's the same guy who posts the video of people swerving across four lanes of I-395 near Crystal City to get to the left-side Exit 8C for southbound Route 1.

Oh, yes, I get it now. Thank you.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 14, 2023, 05:27:03 PM
WTOP has a string of tweets dating back to May 1 (the larger one below is the latest) in which they've started to refer to the eastbound I-395/I-695 split in DC as "DDOTDC's Confusing Exit Condition." (Why DDOTDC? Because that's the agency's Twitter handle.)

https://twitter.com/WTOPtraffic/status/1669072897405534218
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on June 14, 2023, 08:08:58 PM
The above  post really calls into question what DDOT should do here.

1) Should the 395 section between here and NY Ave be renumbered to I-195 (or something equivalent)?  This would mean that 695 simply becomes an extension of 395.

2) Should the numbering stay the same, but should the "Exit only" tabs be removed from under 695 signage?

3) Same as #2, but should control cities be added to the 695 sign for clarification.  Perhaps Baltimore and Anacostia (or National Harbor) should be stated here to direct traffic already in Downtown DC to stay on 695 if headed to either version of 295.

I am a big believer that control cities could help here as it would direct any long distance traffic toward I-295 and DC 295.  This seems to be the preferred way to deal with the long distance traffic that finds itself on the Southeast Freeway.  Once 695 ends, control cities can lead traffic to I-295 toward National Harbor and Alexandria/Richmond and DC 295 to Baltimore and Annapolis.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on June 14, 2023, 08:22:09 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 14, 2023, 08:08:58 PM
1) Should the 395 section between here and NY Ave be renumbered to I-195 (or something equivalent)?  This would mean that 695 simply becomes an extension of 395.

Since the FHWA approved renumbering the center leg as I-195 and renumbering I-695 as I-395 almost 2 years ago, DC should actually put that plan into effect.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on June 14, 2023, 08:26:33 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on June 14, 2023, 08:22:09 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 14, 2023, 08:08:58 PM
1) Should the 395 section between here and NY Ave be renumbered to I-195 (or something equivalent)?  This would mean that 695 simply becomes an extension of 395.

Since the FHWA approved renumbering the center leg as I-195 and renumbering I-695 as I-395 almost 2 years ago, DC should actually put that plan into effect.

I think you're right.  It would be easier for long distance traffic to remember that 395 will lead to the expressways toward Baltimore and Annapolis and the 195 spur dumps onto local traffic on Mass or NY avenues.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: zzcarp on June 14, 2023, 09:12:02 PM
I agree they should actually resign the freeways as approved. That said, what on earth were these truck drivers thinking? I understand a car driver backing up, but for a professional driver with a CDL is just seems egregiously unprofessional. Were their trucks overheight for the tunnel? Or hazmat? Otherwise, why do that dangerous maneuver instead of just getting off and working their way back to the freeway?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 14, 2023, 09:30:01 PM
Presumably they were overheight.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: oscar on June 14, 2023, 10:02:33 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 14, 2023, 09:30:01 PM
Presumably they were overheight.

The tunnel only has 13 feet of vertical clearance. That's because the tunnel had to be squeezed in between the water table and the National Mall. Raising the Mall, or elevating the freeway above the Mall, were not options.

The original plan was to run I-95 through the Third Street Tunnel. That would have made the overheight trucks problem even worse.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 15, 2023, 07:41:18 AM
At least the truck drivers stopped before they caused a situation like the 11-foot-8 (plus 8) bridge in Durham or the bridge with the ten-foot clearance on the Corner in Charlottesville.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on June 15, 2023, 05:20:52 PM
https://twitter.com/ARTBA/status/1669417620452327436
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 18 wheel warrior on July 04, 2023, 06:37:11 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on June 14, 2023, 09:12:02 PM
I agree they should actually resign the freeways as approved. That said, what on earth were these truck drivers thinking? I understand a car driver backing up, but for a professional driver with a CDL is just seems egregiously unprofessional. Were their trucks overheight for the tunnel? Or hazmat? Otherwise, why do that dangerous maneuver instead of just getting off and working their way back to the freeway?

I don't understand the re-routing/re-numbering thing at all. Maybe because I've been in DC so many times in my life, the re-routing/re-numbering would possibly confuse ME for a moment (the first time, anyway) if/when it were to happen. I think it's unnecessary and a waste of money.

I've known of the low clearance at the 3rd St Tunnel (I thought it was 12'6" though) for many years. On the rare occasion I do drive my rig through on the SW/SE Freeway I know better; I could have sworn there were low clearance warnings before Maine Ave. Just looked at the freeway on Google Street View; only saw a sign that lights up when an overheight trips it. As we know in Durham, that doesn't always get a driver's attention for some stupid reason. The only other warning is when one is already on the ramp! The good thing is that if a CDL were to exit there in error, there is still a bailout to the left onto C St SW instead of backing up like the driver in the video did. That driver not only wasn't paying attention, he panicked. 

Again, maybe it's because I've been in the District many times for someone who isn't local, unless the WTOP traffic reporter was referring to the lack of low height warnings, I disagree with the comment of the signage being poor. I love WTOP's "Traffic & Weather on the 8's"; I have my radio tuned to the network in from Fredericksburg north. 
 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 10:57:28 PM
I also think the Interstate renumbering within Washington D.C. is unnecessary. However, it was approved, and it will likely happen sooner or later. I wonder if the exits will also be renumbered.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 20, 2023, 12:17:37 PM
WTOP reports that the FHWA is getting on DC's case about why the city hasn't done anything to implement the I-395/I-695/I-195 renumbering (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2023/09/freeway-frenzy-on-i-395-persists-amid-years-long-delay-in-updating-dc-signs/).

The radio station's tweets regularly refer to the eastbound location there as DC's "confusing exit condition."
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: elsmere241 on September 20, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
It was confusing enough the one time I tried to drive through the District to get home to Delaware from NoVA.  I wound up on what turned out to be South Capitol Street in Anacostia - I wound up just staying on that all the way to the Beltway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: IMGoph on September 20, 2023, 02:10:45 PM
Quote from: elsmere241 on September 20, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
It was confusing enough the one time I tried to drive through the District to get home to Delaware from NoVA.  I wound up on what turned out to be South Capitol Street in Anacostia - I wound up just staying on that all the way to the Beltway.

South Capitol Street doesn't go through Anacostia.

(Note for people who are not from DC and are not familiar with our local geography - everything east of the Anacostia River is not "Anacostia," despite what some suburbanites might think or say.)

If you drive on South Capitol Street from the freeway just south of the Capitol Building, once you cross the river, you run along the eastern boundary of Joint Base Anacostia-Bolling, and once the road crosses under 295, you skirt the edge of the neighborhood of Congress Heights, drive through Bellevue, and then nick the corner of Washington Highlands as you leave the city and enter Maryland.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: tmoore952 on September 20, 2023, 04:38:05 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 20, 2023, 12:17:37 PM
WTOP reports that the FHWA is getting on DC's case about why the city hasn't done anything to implement the I-395/I-695/I-195 renumbering (https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2023/09/freeway-frenzy-on-i-395-persists-amid-years-long-delay-in-updating-dc-signs/).

The radio station's tweets regularly refer to the eastbound location there as DC's "confusing exit condition."

I heard the same radio report (I'm also in DC area). Mention was also made of signage (which hasn't been changed) not agreeing with GPS application maps that have been updated with the new numbering, and specifically of people backing up when they realized NB I-395 was taking them into Third Street Tunnel (old way) instead of eastbound to I-295 (which new routing would do).

I don't have reason to drive down there very much, but I know what roads go where down there, and I know where I want to go regardless of what the signs say. But those signs should be immediately replaced at this point if they are that misleading.

My general impressions of DC signage over the 20+ years I've lived in this area is "very poor", especially on the smaller roads (signs are generally way too small and hard to see). I try to avoid driving in DC in general, but if it is necessary, I stick to my tried-and-true routes. Speed cameras (recent addition as far as I am concerned) and my lack of knowledge of where they are is another reason I try to avoid DC.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 20, 2023, 04:41:18 PM
I take inbound I-395 (into the tunnel) fairly frequently as the most direct route to Union Station, but I don't pay much attention to the signs because I know which lane I need to be in at any given point.

WTOP has been crusading against the I-695 number ever since it was posted because their now-retired traffic reporter Bob Marbourg decided the number was too confusing given its use on the Baltimore Beltway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on September 20, 2023, 05:09:02 PM
This is an agency based in Washington, D.C. laying down the law to the actual Washington city/district......so of course it can't be simple.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 20, 2023, 08:57:10 PM
Channel 4 had a report about the issue tonight, although their graphics department personnel apparently think the Federal Housing Administration has some sort of authority over road signs:

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/fha-tells-ddot-to-address-confusion-on-i-395/3427649/


Edited to add: Dave Dildine contributes to that report, for those of you who'd like to put a face to the name.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on September 21, 2023, 10:30:00 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 20, 2023, 08:57:10 PM
Channel 4 had a report about the issue tonight, although their graphics department personnel apparently think the Federal Housing Administration has some sort of authority over road signs:

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/fha-tells-ddot-to-address-confusion-on-i-395/3427649/


Edited to add: Dave Dildine contributes to that report, for those of you who'd like to put a face to the name.
Also amusing that the map Ch4 showed at the beginning shows a third numbering method (I-695 WB continuing west of the merge).

I'm sure part of DC's reluctance is because they had just finished hanging new signs when the announcement was made the numbering was going to change.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on September 21, 2023, 10:42:12 AM
Quote from: davewiecking on September 21, 2023, 10:30:00 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 20, 2023, 08:57:10 PM
Channel 4 had a report about the issue tonight, although their graphics department personnel apparently think the Federal Housing Administration has some sort of authority over road signs:

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/fha-tells-ddot-to-address-confusion-on-i-395/3427649/


Edited to add: Dave Dildine contributes to that report, for those of you who'd like to put a face to the name.
Also amusing that the map Ch4 showed at the beginning shows a third numbering method (I-695 WB continuing west of the merge).

I'm sure part of DC's reluctance is because they had just finished hanging new signs when the announcement was made the numbering was going to change.

It looks like they probably copied the shield location from Google Maps, which has an I-695 shield on the eastbound Southwest—Southeast Freeway almost immediately after I-395 splits off to the right down the ramp to the tunnel. Hopefully this map link is zoomed enough to show it. (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8823309,-77.0154538,17.21z?entry=ttu)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: mrsman on September 21, 2023, 07:20:16 PM
This whole issue is really frustrating.

DDOT will eventually change the numbering on the signs.  Good.

Another improvement adding Baltimore and Anacostia as control cities to the sign on the left.  395 to 295/295.  While I wouldn't route traffic from Fairfax County to Baltimore through here, traffic already in DC should certainly use this roadway and seeing a city as far away as Baltimore will guide most of the traffic that this is the thru route.

And the left lanes should no longer be marked as the exit 5.


At the 295/295 split, the signage should read

295 to 495 95             295 to 50
Anacostia                    Baltimore
Alexandria                   Annapolis
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: ixnay on September 22, 2023, 04:43:28 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 20, 2023, 04:41:18 PM
I take inbound I-395 (into the tunnel) fairly frequently as the most direct route to Union Station, but I don't pay much attention to the signs because I know which lane I need to be in at any given point.

WTOP has been crusading against the I-695 number ever since it was posted because their now-retired traffic reporter Bob Marbourg decided the number was too confusing given its use on the Baltimore Beltway.

Only Marbourg could call the Baltimore Beltway "the real 695".  I miss him and his helpful, helpfully toned advice.  I also miss Sam Clover on Philly's KYW and Robin Bryson on Wilmington's WDEL (but those are topics for other AARoads boards).  Enjoy your retirements, fellas.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on October 18, 2023, 01:54:59 PM
Another pedestrian bridge struck over Kenilworth Ave. Driver apparently didn't stop...
https://www.dcnewsnow.com/traffic/crews-evaluate-bridge-in-dc-after-truck-load-hits-it-leaves-debris-in-roadway
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 18, 2023, 10:00:38 PM
Is there any way to increase the vertical clearance of pedestrian and vehicle overpasses (and vehicle underpasses) along DC 295 without excessive condemning of nearby properties?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on October 18, 2023, 10:26:52 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 18, 2023, 10:00:38 PM
Is there any way to increase the vertical clearance of pedestrian and vehicle overpasses (and vehicle underpasses) along DC 295 without excessive condemning of nearby properties?
Probably not, given ADA requirements.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on October 19, 2023, 12:31:31 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 18, 2023, 10:26:52 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 18, 2023, 10:00:38 PM
Is there any way to increase the vertical clearance of pedestrian and vehicle overpasses (and vehicle underpasses) along DC 295 without excessive condemning of nearby properties?
Probably not, given ADA requirements.
I don't think that's a valid answer to the question.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 07:12:02 AM
Quote from: Alps on October 19, 2023, 12:31:31 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 18, 2023, 10:26:52 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 18, 2023, 10:00:38 PM
Is there any way to increase the vertical clearance of pedestrian and vehicle overpasses (and vehicle underpasses) along DC 295 without excessive condemning of nearby properties?
Probably not, given ADA requirements.
I don't think that's a valid answer to the question.
Why not?  To squeeze in ramps in the existing footprint while raising clearance would probably make them non-ADA compliant.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: davewiecking on October 19, 2023, 11:44:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 19, 2023, 07:12:02 AM
Quote from: Alps on October 19, 2023, 12:31:31 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 18, 2023, 10:26:52 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 18, 2023, 10:00:38 PM
Is there any way to increase the vertical clearance of pedestrian and vehicle overpasses (and vehicle underpasses) along DC 295 without excessive condemning of nearby properties?
Probably not, given ADA requirements.
I don't think that's a valid answer to the question.
Why not?  To squeeze in ramps in the existing footprint while raising clearance would probably make them non-ADA compliant.
The bridge that was struck is in the process of being replaced, so the answer is YES in at least this case.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EddefArqbpNmVz347
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: sturmde on October 19, 2023, 02:33:13 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 20, 2023, 05:09:02 PM
This is an agency based in Washington, D.C. laying down the law to the actual Washington city/district......so of course it can't be simple.

AASHTO's SCOURN and FHWA though missed what they SHOULD have done.  Recommend the approved I-195 north/south section of I-395 be posted only as "DC 195" thus making it clear that it doesn't feed into a freeway system, and it's an interstate dead-end.  Might help make stupid drivers realize the approved-to-change-to-395 extension along I-695 is the way to I-295 and DC 295... 
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on November 08, 2023, 07:11:56 PM
WTOP has a tweet tonight saying DC is expected to post the new Interstate numbers sometime next year. Of course, that still leaves 366 possibilities.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on November 08, 2023, 07:19:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 08, 2023, 07:11:56 PM
WTOP has a tweet tonight saying DC is expected to post the new Interstate numbers sometime next year. Of course, that still leaves 366 possibilities.

Should I take this as a leap year reference or an ethanman reference?   :clap:
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: froggie on November 08, 2023, 07:26:46 PM
Both?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on November 08, 2023, 08:40:14 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 08, 2023, 07:19:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 08, 2023, 07:11:56 PM
WTOP has a tweet tonight saying DC is expected to post the new Interstate numbers sometime next year. Of course, that still leaves 366 possibilities.

Should I take this as a leap year reference or an ethanman reference?   :clap:
Referencing the number of days in the year didn't even cross my mind until I read your post.  "Tandem announcement with VDOT on signing VA 28 as I-366" did.  Clearly I've been on the forum too long.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: cockroachking on November 08, 2023, 10:49:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on November 08, 2023, 08:40:14 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 08, 2023, 07:19:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 08, 2023, 07:11:56 PM
WTOP has a tweet tonight saying DC is expected to post the new Interstate numbers sometime next year. Of course, that still leaves 366 possibilities.

Should I take this as a leap year reference or an ethanman reference?   :clap:
Referencing the number of days in the year didn't even cross my mind until I read your post.  "Tandem announcement with VDOT on signing VA 28 as I-366" did.  Clearly I've been on the forum too long.
Not unreasonable due to DDOT's signage delay. VDOT might sign I-366 before DDOT acts at this rate :biggrin:
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Revive 755 on November 08, 2023, 11:14:09 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 18, 2023, 10:26:52 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 18, 2023, 10:00:38 PM
Is there any way to increase the vertical clearance of pedestrian and vehicle overpasses (and vehicle underpasses) along DC 295 without excessive condemning of nearby properties?
Probably not, given ADA requirements.

I would go with 'probably not' as well, but on other factors:

* Is lowering DC 295 out of the question?  Runs into costs, possibly water table/soil issues, maybe problems with nearby ramps.
* Can space be taken from the outer roads along DC 295?  May run into opposition due to the loss of parking.
* Use elevators for ADA compliance?  Runs into issues with operation and maintenance costs.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on November 09, 2023, 07:34:42 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 08, 2023, 07:19:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 08, 2023, 07:11:56 PM
WTOP has a tweet tonight saying DC is expected to post the new Interstate numbers sometime next year. Of course, that still leaves 366 possibilities.

Should I take this as a leap year reference or an ethanman reference?   :clap:

I meant it as a leap year reference, but I did wonder whether people would construe it as the other.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Alps on November 09, 2023, 10:20:15 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 09, 2023, 07:34:42 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 08, 2023, 07:19:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 08, 2023, 07:11:56 PM
WTOP has a tweet tonight saying DC is expected to post the new Interstate numbers sometime next year. Of course, that still leaves 366 possibilities.

Should I take this as a leap year reference or an ethanman reference?   :clap:

I meant it as a leap year reference, but I did wonder whether people would construe it as the other.
I had no clue it was a leap year reference until someone mentioned it.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on November 10, 2023, 12:28:00 PM
I suppose I could have said "365" to make it more obvious what I meant, but if I'd done that, the usual suspects would have pointed out that 365 would have been wrong (and they'd have been right about that).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: tmoore952 on November 10, 2023, 11:47:12 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 09, 2023, 07:34:42 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 08, 2023, 07:19:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 08, 2023, 07:11:56 PM
WTOP has a tweet tonight saying DC is expected to post the new Interstate numbers sometime next year. Of course, that still leaves 366 possibilities.

Should I take this as a leap year reference or an ethanman reference?   :clap:

I meant it as a leap year reference, but I did wonder whether people would construe it as the other.

FWIW, I immediately got the leap year reference.

I'm not aware of the other reference (i.e., not aware of potential (or otherwise) VA 28/I-366 connection --- and if they were to do that, why not 166?)
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: FLAVORTOWN on November 11, 2023, 12:46:10 AM
There already is a 166 in VA and VDOT does not allow same numbers to be used on different highway types
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 74/171FAN on November 11, 2023, 05:36:20 AM
Quote from: FLAVORTOWN on November 11, 2023, 12:46:10 AM
There already is a 166 in VA and VDOT does not allow same numbers to be used on different highway types

With few exceptions (VA and US 13, VA and US 311).
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: hotdogPi on November 11, 2023, 07:06:28 AM
I-366 is a forum meme started by a troll.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: vdeane on November 11, 2023, 04:31:32 PM
Quote from: tmoore952 on November 10, 2023, 11:47:12 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 09, 2023, 07:34:42 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 08, 2023, 07:19:51 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 08, 2023, 07:11:56 PM
WTOP has a tweet tonight saying DC is expected to post the new Interstate numbers sometime next year. Of course, that still leaves 366 possibilities.

Should I take this as a leap year reference or an ethanman reference?   :clap:

I meant it as a leap year reference, but I did wonder whether people would construe it as the other.

FWIW, I immediately got the leap year reference.

I'm not aware of the other reference (i.e., not aware of potential (or otherwise) VA 28/I-366 connection --- and if they were to do that, why not 166?)
Ethanman has spoken:
Quote from: ethanman62187 on August 24, 2011, 04:10:58 PM
Do you think VA 28 north of I66 will be changed to I366?  Will the speed limit there go up to 65 mph?
Quote from: ethanman62187 on August 27, 2011, 11:55:14 AM
Quote from: US71 on August 24, 2011, 04:48:35 PM
Should this not go to Fictional Highways?  :hmmm:
Actually, I'm doing this on purpose because when all of the traffic lights north on I66 are removed, it will be an auxiliary route of I66. I also think 55 mph is not fast enough, so I also want that speed limit to go up to 65 mph. The Elanor C. Lawrence Park will be turned to a trumpet interchange. The intersection south of that will be an SPUI. The traffic light south of that will be removed. Going to I66 east from south will use route 50 to get there because the signal there will also be removed. That's all for this area on signal removals.
Note that none of this was originally posted in Fictional (and the thread title may have changed with the move).  I also seem to remember him being more insistent that VA 28 becoming I-366 WILL happen... did some posts get deleted?
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: The Ghostbuster on November 11, 2023, 08:39:53 PM
Does VA 28 north of Interstate 66 really need an Interstate designation, such as Interstate 366? Although VA 28 from US 29 northward is up to freeway standards, is it also up to Interstate Standards? I think VA 28 has as much of a chance at becoming an Interstate, as proposals to extend the VA 28 roadway across a bridge over the Potomac River into Maryland: Zero!
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: FLAVORTOWN on November 12, 2023, 12:44:28 AM
I dont think VA-28 is upto interstate standards theres too many exits right next to each other, not to mention the weird layout for Waxpool Rd exit
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on December 16, 2023, 06:31:16 AM
Will the Capitals and Wizards be moving to Virginia?

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/wizards-capitals-owner-announces-2-billion-plan-to-move-teams-to-virginia/3493235/
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: tmoore952 on December 16, 2023, 11:31:01 AM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on December 16, 2023, 06:31:16 AM
Will the Capitals and Wizards be moving to Virginia?

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/wizards-capitals-owner-announces-2-billion-plan-to-move-teams-to-virginia/3493235/

I went to Hawaii this week. This story was breaking right when I got back Wednesday afternoon. It's been the lead story in DC ever since, usually with several substories attached.

It is not a done deal, needs to get approval. The locals in the area of the proposed arena seem to be split on this. The nearest Metro stop (Potomac Yards) would need major upgrades. Potomac Yards also happens to have been the most recent Metro station to open, and for whatever reasons (guessing anticipated low volume usage) they put in only one escalator and stairway.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: machpost on December 18, 2023, 08:16:06 AM
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 16, 2023, 11:31:01 AMThe nearest Metro stop (Potomac Yards) would need major upgrades. Potomac Yards also happens to have been the most recent Metro station to open, and for whatever reasons (guessing anticipated low volume usage) they put in only one escalator and stairway.

That station is also hemmed in with several sets of railroad tracks to the west, and the GW Parkway to the east, and its design had to meet NPS approval in fitting the aesthetic of the Parkway, so those things could've contributed.
Title: Re: District of Columbia
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2023, 08:34:33 AM
Quote from: machpost on December 18, 2023, 08:16:06 AM
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 16, 2023, 11:31:01 AMThe nearest Metro stop (Potomac Yards) would need major upgrades. Potomac Yards also happens to have been the most recent Metro station to open, and for whatever reasons (guessing anticipated low volume usage) they put in only one escalator and stairway.

That station is also hemmed in with several sets of railroad tracks to the west, and the GW Parkway to the east, and its design had to meet NPS approval in fitting the aesthetic of the Parkway, so those things could've contributed.

Those things absolutely contributed. The National Park Service jurisdiction is also why there is highly unlikely ever to be a new exit from the GW Parkway to the plot designated for the arena. (For those familiar with Potomac Yard, the arena is to be built on the plot where the 16-screen Hoyt's cinema used to be.)